Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr

Forum Post: Does anybody believe there are any who support OWS and support the GOP?

Posted 8 years ago on May 13, 2012, 9:49 a.m. EST by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If there are not why do some feel the need to post about how we shouldn’t support Obama or Romney? Aren’t they really just here to keep us from getting a little bit closer to our goals by keeping more of those who oppose us on every front, not just one or two, in power. I was just listening to a bunch of GOP supports talking about they would vote for Romney because staying home was like a vote for other guy, so it seems those on the right “get it” will the left be outsmarted again?



Read the Rules
[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

There sure does seem to be a lot of them that want OWS to support Mr. P, who is just another flavor of (R)epelican't.

One with a decidedly Dominionist agenda.

One has to wonder if his supporters even know what a Dominionist is.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

are you being attacked by the trolls? they are really going after the karma scores the past few days, maybe they see "leaders" rising?

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I get attacked all the time.........:)

They particularly don't like it when I point out certain truths about libe(R)tarians, though I've been attacked for pointing out (R)e[pelican't issues as well..

Then there are the inevitable sock puppets.

I'm just not that worried about being a "leader" or king of the hill.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

No that's not it (I keep telling myself), just newer people when they come on have a lot of choices and the scores help guide them, that's why they attack, they're pros, it's not personal with them either.

I recently have been pointing out that Ron Paul will turn all power over to the cororations, maybe that pissed them off.

[-] 8 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

There are some that will attack you just because your score is high.

I've also found that "right" wingers have the hardest time of giving up their wingedness.

This is because the way forward will include an inevitable pull towards the perceived "left".

[-] 6 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

yeah those of you that have been at it longer and are bigger targets have proably delt with this, it was just the first time for me, I had seen negative scores so i knew it could be done, funny thing the new trolls were not voting so the "moles" moved in maybe?

[-] 5 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Congratulations on becoming a "right" wing target.

Soon they'll be telling you not to vote at all.

[-] 6 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

they're getting banned before I can even get to their comments, damn these guys are good (the folks who run the site)


[-] -1 points by john23 (-272) 8 years ago

No...Ron Paul would stop the ability of corporations to manipulate government and screw you over. How does a corporation hurt you? How does microsoft hurt you? Do they steal stuff from you? No. They provide a good product at a low cost and you buy it....a net benefit to you. They hurt you by manipulating government with money....take that out of the equation and corporations have one person to answer to...the consumer...you....through every transaction you enter into.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

"How does a corporation hurt you?"

I'm so glad you asked,,,,,

The 14 Most Evil Corporations (according to Global Exchange) Published by Lauren on December 24, 2006 in EcoWarrior, GMO Foods, Politics and This n That.

These Profiteers are guilty of committing atrocities (war crimes, torture, toxic dumping and stifling freedom of speech) against mankind in the name of Greed.Here's the Low-Down on these Prophets of Profit.

Corporations carry out some of the most horrific human rights abuses of modern times, but it is increasingly difficult to hold them to account. Economic globalization and the rise of transnational corporate power have created a favorable climate for corporate human rights abusers, which are governed principally by the codes of supply and demand and show genuine loyalty only to their stockholders.

Several of the companies below are being sued under the Alien Tort Claims Act, a law that allows citizens of any nationality to sue in US federal courts for violations of international rights or treaties. When corporations act like criminals, we have the right and the power to stop them, holding leaders and multinational corporations alike to the accords they have signed. Around the world-<>in Venezuela, Argentina, India, and right here in the United States-citizens are stepping up to create democracy and hold corporations accountable to international law.


For years, the Caterpillar Company has provided Israel with the bulldozers used to destroy Palestinian homes. Despite worldwide condemnation, Caterpillar has refused to end its corporate participation house demolition by cutting off sales of specially modified D9 and D10 bulldozers to the Israeli military.

In a letter to Caterpillar CEO James Owens, The Office of the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights said: allowing the delivery of your bulldozers to the Israeli army in the certain knowledge that they are being used for such action, might involve complicity or acceptance on the part of your company to actual and potential violations of human rights

Peace activist Rachel Corrie was killed by a Caterpillar D-9, military bulldozer in 2003. She was run over while attempting to block the destruction a family's home in Gaza. Her family filed suit against Caterpillar in March 2005 charging that Caterpillar knowingly sold machines used to violate human rights. Since Corrie's death at least three more Palestinians have been killed in their homes by Israeli bulldozer demolitions.


The petrochemical company Chevron is guilty of some of the worst environmental and human rights abuses in the world. From 1964 to 1992, Texaco (which transferred operations to Chevron after being bought out in 2001) unleashed a toxic Rainforest Chernobyl in Ecuador by leaving over 600 unlined oil pits in pristine northern Amazon rainforest and dumping 18 billion gallons of toxic production water into rivers used for bathing water. Local communities have suffered severe health effects, including cancer, skin lesions, birth defects, and spontaneous abortions.

Chevron is also responsible for the violent repression of peaceful opposition to oil extraction. In Nigeria, Chevron has hired private military personnel to open fire on peaceful protesters who oppose oil extraction in the Niger Delta.

Additionally Chevron is responsible for widespread health problems in Richmond, California, where one of Chevron's largest refineries is located. Processing 350,000 barrels of oil a day, the Richmond refinery produces oil flares and toxic waste in the Richmond area. As a result, local residents suffer from high rates of lupus, skin rashes, rheumatic fever, liver problems, kidney problems, tumors, cancer, asthma, and eye problems.

The Unocal Corporation, which recently became a subsidiary of Chevron, is an oil and gas company based in California with operations around the world. In December 2004, the company settled a lawsuit filed by 15 Burmese villagers, in which the villagers alleged Unocal's complicity in a range of human rights violations in Burma, including rape, summary execution, torture, forced labor and forced migration.


Coca-Cola Company is perhaps the most widely recognized corporate symbol on the planet. The company also leads in the abuse of workers' rights, assassinations, water privatization, and worker discrimination. Between 1989 and 2002, eight union leaders from Coca-Cola bottling plants in Colombia were killed after protesting the company's labor practices. Hundreds of other Coca-Cola workers who have joined or considered joining the Colombian union SINALTRAINAL have been kidnapped, tortured, and detained by paramilitaries who are hired to intimidate workers to prevent them from unionizing.

In India, Coca-Cola destroys local agriculture by privatizing the country's water resources. In Plachimada, Kerala, Coca-Cola extracted 1.5 million liters of deep well water, which they bottled and sold under the names Dasani and BonAqua. The groundwater was severely depleted, affecting thousands of communities with water shortages and destroying agricultural activity. As a result, the remaining water became contaminated with high chloride and bacteria levels, leading to scabs, eye problems, and stomach aches in the local population.

Coca-Cola is also one of the most discriminatory employers in the world. In the year 2000, 2,000 African-American employees in the U.S. sued the company for race-based disparities in pay and promotions.


Dow Chemical has been destroying lives and poisoning the planet for decades. The company is best known for the ravages and health disaster for millions of Vietnamese and U.S. Veterans caused by its lethal Vietnam War defoliant, Agent Orange. Dow also developed and perfected Napalm, a brutal chemical weapon that burned many innocents to death in Vietnam and other wars. In 1988, Dow provided pesticides to Saddam Hussein despite warnings that they could be used to produce chemical weapons.

In 2001, Dow inherited the toxic legacy of the worst peacetime chemical disaster in history when it acquired Union Carbide Corporation (UCC) and its outstanding liabilities in Bhopal, India. On Dec. 3, 1984, a chemical leak from a UCC pesticide plant in Bhopal gassed thousands of people to death and left more than 150,000 disabled or dying. Dow still refuses to address its liabilities in Bhopal.

Dow Chemical's impact is felt globally from its Midland, Michigan headquarters to New Plymouth, New Zealand. In Midland, Dow has been producing chlorinated chemicals and burning and burying its waste including chemicals that make up Agent Orange. In New Plymouth, 500,000 gallons of Agent Orange were produced and thousands of tons of dioxin-laced waste was dumped in agricultural fields.


Private security contractors have become the fastest-growing sector of the global economy during the last decade a $100-billion-a-year, nearly unregulated industry. DynCorp, one of the providers of these mercenary services, demonstrates the industry's power and potential to abuse human rights. While guarding Afghan statesmen and African oil fields, training Iraqi police forces, eradicating Colombian coca plants, and protecting business interests in hurricane-devastated New Orleans, these hired guns bolster the security of governments and organizations at the expense of many people's human rights.

DynCorp's fumigation of coca crops along the Colombian-Ecuadorian border led Ecuadorian peasants to sue DynCorp in 2001. Plaintiffs argued that DynCorp knew-<>or should have known-that the herbicides were highly toxic.

In 2001, a mechanic with DynCorp blew the whistle on DynCorp employees in Bosnia for rape and trading girls as young as 12 into sex slavery. According to a lawsuit filed by the mechanic, employees and supervisors were engaging in perverse, illegal and inhumane behavior [and] were purchasing illegal weapons, women, [and] forged passports. DynCorp fired the whistleblower and transferred the employees accused of sex trading out of the country, eventually firing some. None were prosecuted.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago


Among automakers, Ford Motor Company is the worst. Every year since 1999, the US Environmental Protection Agency has ranked Ford cars, trucks and SUVs as having the worst overall fuel economy of any American automaker. Ford's current car and truck fleet has a lower average fuel efficiency than the original Ford Model-T.

Ford is also in last place when it comes to vehicle greenhouse gas emissions. According to a recent report by the Union of Concerned Scientists, Ford has the absolute worst heat-trapping gas emissions performance of all the Big Six automakers.

Despite the company's recent greenwashing PR campaign, its record has actually worsened. According to Ford's own sustainability report, between 2003 and 2004, the company's US fleet-wide fuel economy decreased and its CO2 emissions went up. Ford has also lobbied against lawmakers efforts to increase fuel economy standards at the national level and is also involved in a lawsuit against California's fuel economy standards.

KBR (Kellogg, Brown and Root): A Subsidiary of HALIBURTON Corporation

KBR is a private company that provides military support services. Notorious for its questionable bookkeeping, dishonest billing practices with US taxpayer dollars and no-bid contracts, KBR has violated human rights on the U.S. dollar.

KBR's dubious accounting in Iraq came to light in December 2003 when Pentagon auditors questioned possible overcharges for imported gasoline. In June 2005, a previously secret Pentagon audit criticized $1.4 billion in questioned and unsupported expenditures. In 2002 the company paid $2 million to settle a Justice Department lawsuit that accused KBR of inflating contract prices at Fort Ord, California.

Many third-country national (TCN) laborers have been hired by KBR to rebuild Iraq. Generally hailing from impoverished Asian countries, they have unexpectedly become part of the largest civilian workforce ever hired in support of a U.S. war. Once abroad, the workers find themselves with few protections and uncertain legal status. TCNs often sleep in crowded trailers and wait outside in scorching heat for food rations. Many lack adequate medical care and put in hard labor seven days a week, 10 hours or more a day.


Lockheed Martin is the world's largest military contractor. Providing satellites, planes, missiles and other lethal high-tech items to the Pentagon keeps the profits rolling in. Since 2000, the year Bush was elected, the company's stock value has tripled.

As the Center for Corporate Policy (www.corporatepolicy.org) notes, it is no coincidence that Lockheed VP Bruce Jackson-<>who helped draft the Republican foreign policy platform in 2000-is a key player at the Project for a New American Century, the intellectual incubator of the Iraq war.

Lockheed Martin is not the only defense contractor that goes behind the scenes to influence public policy, but it is one of the worst. Stephen J. Hadley, who now has Condoleeza Rice's old job as Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, was formerly a partner in a DC law firm representing Lockheed Martin. He is only one of the beneficiaries of the so-called revolving door between the military industries and the civilian national security apparatus. These war profiteers have a profound and illegitimate influence on our country's international policy decisions.


Monsanto is, by far, the largest producer of genetically engineered seeds in the world, dominating 70% to 100% of the market for crops such as soy, cotton, wheat and corn.

Monsanto is the world's leading producer of the herbicide glyphosate, marketed as Roundup. Roundup is sold to small farmers as a pesticide, yet harms crops in the long run as the toxins accumulate in the soil. Plants eventually become infertile, forcing farmers to purchase genetically modified Roundup Ready Seed, a seed that resists the herbicide. This creates a cycle of dependency on Monsanto for both the weed killer and the only seed that can resist it. Both products are patented, and sold at inflated prices. Exposure to the pesticide is documented to cause cancers, skin disorders, spontaneous abortions, premature births, and damage to the gastrointestinal and nervous systems.

According to the India Committee of the Netherlands and the International Labor Rights Fund, Monsanto also employs child labor. In India, an estimated 12,375 children work in cottonseed production for farmers paid by Indian and multinational seed companies, including Monsanto.


The problem of illegal and forced child labor is rampant in the chocolate industry, because more than 40% of the world's cocoa supply comes from the Ivory Coast, a country that the US State Department estimates had approximately 109,000 child laborers working in hazardous conditions on cocoa farms. In 2001, Save the Children Canada reported that 15,000 children between 9 and 12 years old, many from impoverished Mali, had been tricked or sold into slavery on West African cocoa farms, many for just $30 each.

Nestle, the third largest buyer of cocoa from the Ivory Coast, is well aware of the tragically unjust labor practices taking place on the farms with which it continues to do business. Nestle and other chocolate manufacturers agreed to end the use of abusive and forced child labor on cocoa farms by July 1, 2005, but they failed to do so.

Nestle is also notorious for its aggressive marketing of infant formula in poor countries in the 1980s. Because of this practice, Nestle is still one of the most boycotted corporations in the world, and its infant formula is still controversial. In Italy in 2005, police seized more than two million liters of Nestle infant formula that was contaminated with the chemical isopropylthioxanthone (ITX).

Additionally, violations of labor rights are reported from Nestle factories in numerous countries. In Colombia, Nestle replaced the entire factory staff with lower-wage workers and did not renew the collective employment contract.

Philip Morris USA and Philip Morris International (a.k.a. The ALTRIA Group Inc.)

Among tobacco companies, Philip Morris is notorious. Now called Altria, it is the world's largest and most profitable cigarette corporation and maker of Marlboro, Virginia Slims, Parliament, Basic and many other brands of cigarettes.

Documents uncovered in a lawsuit filed against the tobacco industry by the state of Minnesota showed that Philip Morris and other leading tobacco corporations knew very well of the dangers of tobacco products and the addictiveness of nicotine. To this day, Philip Morris deceives consumers about the harm of its products by offering light, mild and low-tar cigarettes that give consumers the illusion these brands are healthier than traditional cigarettes.

Although the company says it doesn't want kids to smoke, it spends millions of dollars every day marketing and promoting cigarettes to youth. Overseas, it has even hired underage Marlboro girls to distribute free cigarettes to other children and sponsored concerts where cigarettes were handed out to minors.

As anti-tobacco campaigns and government regulations are slowing tobacco use in Western countries, Philip Morris has aggressively moved into developing country markets, where smoking and smoking-related deaths are on the rise. Preliminary numbers released by the World Health Organization predict global deaths due to smoking-related illnesses will nearly double by 2020, with more than three-quarters of those deaths in the developing world.


Pfizer is the largest pharmaceutical company in the world; it is also one of the worst abusers of the human right of universal access to HIV/AIDS medicine.

In addition to Viagra, Zoloft, Zithromax and Norvasc, Pfizer produces the drug fluconazole (an antifungal used by AIDS patients) under the name Diflucan, and sells it at inflated prices most poor people cannot afford. The company refuses to grant generic licenses of fluconazole to governments in countries like Brazil, South Africa, or Dominican Republic, where patients are forced to pay $20 per weekly pill, though the average national wage is only $120 per month.

Pfizer also values shareholder profits over safety standards. In Europe in 2005, it withdrew from scientific studies of a new class of AIDS drugs called CCR5 inhibitors, choosing instead to rush its own untested CCR5 inhibitor onto the European market without full information about the drug's side effects.

Suez-Lyonnaise Des Eaux (SLDE)

The privatization of water has had a disastrous impact on the human right to clean water, and the French company Suez is the worst perpetrator of this abuse. The company's billions of dollars in profit come at the expense of poor people living in countries where thousands lack access to potable water, and, because of private water contracts, are also facing skyrocketing water prices.

Suez goes by many names around the world-<>Ondeo, SITA and others-to mask its worldwide net of controversial activities. In Manila, Philippines, after seven years of water privatization under a Suez company (Maynilad Water) contract, studies showed that water rates increased in some neighborhoods by 400 to 700 percent. These studies also showed that the negligence of the company resulted in cholera and gastroenteritis outbreaks that killed six people and severely sickened 725 in Manila's Tondo district.

In Bolivia, a Suez company (Aguas de Illimani) left 200,000 people without access to water and caused a revolt when it tried to charge between $335 and $445 to connect a private home to the water supply. Countless people were unable to afford this charge in a country whose yearly per capita GDP is $915.

Unfortunately, the IMF and World Bank are playing a key role in pushing water privatization all over the world. Many countries have been required to open up their water supply to private companies as a condition for receiving IMF loans, and the World Bank has approved millions of dollars in loans for the privatization of water systems.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago


Wal-Mart is the biggest corporation in the world. It owns 5,100 stores worldwide and employs 1.3 million workers in the United States and 400,000 abroad, as well as millions more in the factories of its suppliers.

Many people have heard of the way that Wal-Mart steamrolls its way into every possible town, destroying local supermarkets and countless small businesses. We have also heard about Wal-Mart's long track record of worker abuse, from forced overtime to sex discrimination to illegal child labor to relentless union busting. Wal-Mart also notoriously fails to provide health insurance to over half of its employees, who are then left to rely on themselves or taxpayers, who provide for a portion of their healthcare needs through government Medicaid.

Less well known is the fact that Wal-Mart maintains its low price level by allowing substandard labor conditions at the overseas factories producing most of its goods. The company continually demands lower prices from its suppliers, who, in turn, make more outrageous and abusive demands on their workers in order to meet Wal-Mart's requirements.

In September 2005, the International Labor Rights Fund filed a lawsuit on behalf of Wal-Mart supplier sweatshop workers in China, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nicaragua and Swaziland. The workers were denied minimum wages, forced to work overtime without compensation, and were denied legally mandated health care. Other worker rights violations that have been found in foreign factories that produce goods for Wal-Mart include locked bathrooms, starvation wages, pregnancy tests, denial of access to health care, and workers being fired and blacklisted if they try to defend their rights.

[-] -1 points by charlz (4) 8 years ago

Pfizer gives users of its drugs discount cards so that the drug can cost as little as 4$ for a a 30 day script. Ford pays dividends. Altria is one of the best corporations in the world. They also pay dividends. These companies emply millions of people.

[-] 1 points by john23 (-272) 8 years ago

Almost everything you mentioned can be traced back to government. Why are these corporations aloud to get away with this stuff? Because they line the pocketbooks of congress. Take monsanto as an example....evil corp.....i agree with you whole heartedly...but is it monsanto's fault, or the fault of government? Who isn't forcing Monsanto or companies to label GMO foods to give consumers the choice? The government...because half the people who work at monsanto have worked for the FDA in the past....the amount of money monsanto uses to buy goverment is incredible. There have even been studies done by the FDA on GMO's which weren't aloud to be released because of the possibility of "irreparable harm" to the company....so who's at fault? Check out this recent article on GMO's:


If government wasn't protecting them because of the money they get from them...they would cease to be an issue for the consumer. I don't argue that corps aren't evil....i argue that corps are aloud to continue operating like that because of government. There were so many things mentioned above i can't discuss all of them...but take oil for example. Do you use oil? Do you drive a car? Do you use shopping bags or tooth brushes? Do you have any rubber products in your house? Well you're contributing to the problem....i don't want to hear anyone whine about oil unless they don't use any (and i got a degree in green design...so i'm by no means pro-oil and pollution). You are voting everytime you purchase this stuff to keep oil companies in business....they aren't stealing your money....people are providing the money for them.

My overall argument is that government is the engine which allows corps to screw over the people....because government is just as interested at lining their pockets with money as the corps. You will never fix the problem by taxing corps more...which seems to be the general trend on this site....you've just treated the symptom...but not the cause of the problem. Government is the cause....the only way to cure it is to take money out of elections and government...these guys are supposed to be there providing a patriotic duty for their country, not to become rich from lobbying and campaign funds. Take greed out of government...the only way to do that is to take money out of government...where the money goes...greed will go. As long as government officials don't have a cap on their gross earnings (from all avenue's of income)...nothing will change.


[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

You know what I find exceedingly funny?

Remember back in the late 70's I think 1978.

The original Ford Fiesta?

Ugly ugly car.

I had one.

Little 4 cyl engine with a 4 speed manual transmission. Front wheel drive.

Small light car that I could drive through deep snow.

Ugly as sin.

Anyway I could burn rubber in three gears and wheel hop in 4th.

Peppy ugly little car.

Imagine going 60 mph on the freeway and that low geared transmission making the engine scream.


I drove that car over 40 miles a day round trip to work most of the driving was on the freeway.

I averaged over 40 mpg in that car.

I wonder what it would have given me with a 5th gear?

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Instead of answering any of my questions they use their bots to close the threads, look below.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Perhaps if you posted a glowing review of Romney's presidential run your post would remain uncollapsed?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Now shooz how can you write a glowing review of Mittens campaign?

I could write a review under the glow of a candle.

But a glowing review?

Is Mad Magazine still around?????????????

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

Oh? It is a pretty sorry campaign. Whatever he said, he already forget.

Perhaps a glowing review of Atlas Shrugged, and all things libe(R)tarian?.

Profess a love of Rand Paul?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

do do - do do - do do - dee do - You have now entered a realm............

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

I have entered the botlight zone!!!!!!

Where cowards vote down every progressive comment.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

LOL - sorry it took so long to reply.

This damned dumb stupid collapse comment feature makes you have to dig deeper and deeper to make a response/reply.

Stop supporting attackers of the site - turn off the collapse comment feature.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

You have been determined by the blind marchers to be a threat to their program of supporting the greedy corrupt criminal status-quo.

Check out what they have done to my unite in common cause post.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I will, those who wish to destory AND those who wish to control are after me I fear....

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

If we could just get the forum to turn off that damned dumb stupid collapse comment feature. SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

it would help and another "list" of some sort would desade them I think...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Collect the absurd number of down votes on a comment and display them for review?


-13 points by....................... 1 minute ago

Mittens sucks.

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

Like that?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago


[+] -4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Tanner on American Top Gear drives on of those for drifting comps.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

It was a fun little car - ugly as hell - but fun.

Thing is I think they made an engineering mistake when they put it out to the public as it got better gas mileage than it should have.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I'm glad we raised mileage standers, it was a decade late because of Nader and all, but hey at least we did that.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

It's a start but we need to keep the pressure on. Hell they are just fucking around with their hybrid BS - look public - Hybrids Yayyyyy - hell they don't even beat the mpg of their non hybrid vehicles.

There is not a single vehicle being made today that should get less than 50 mpg in stop and go traffic. IMO.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

They're building one in FL, don't know what stage it is in, that uses the gas engine just to charge the battery, I know a bit about engineering and this is the way to go short term.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Long term hydrogen fuel cell.

Sorry if I don't reply to all of your comments - but some threads are being edited out now.

Turn off the damned dumb stupid collapse comment feature.

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Would you let your childern go hungery so I can breath clean air?

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

How exactly would he reduce their power, is he for public funding of elections? I've never heard him say that. Could you give me the link where talks about how vitial public funding is?

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

If there is only one place to work, what will you do to get a job there?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

That's an interesting thought.

All of the complaints by the attackers of the Movements against greed corruption and crime - their #1 complaint/accusation (?) how can a leaderless movement be effective.

They can not comprehend the idea so they try to find and attack what is not there - leaders.

So in their thinking anyone on the forum with a high score - must be a leader.


Blind Marchers blindly trying to follow their masters orders - find the leaders of these movements and crush them.

How funny.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

It is like stopping the tide with a teacup

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Well the Greedy corrupt criminals need to try to do something - ALEC has been exposed. Besides I'm sure they need to keep their blind marching troopers busy. Idle hands are the devils playground. Give a blind marcher too much time for contemplation and they might start asking questions of their masters.

[-] -3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I only stinkle you guys when you tell people to vote Obama to keep Romney out of office. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with everything else you say.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

so we're cool as long as we don't try to change anything, got it

[-] -1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

No, you twinkle when you don't stinkle & you're cool when you keep it simple and don't Occupy Obama.

[-] 6 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I think you will find I have posted a lot about Republicans, can't ever remember posting about Obama except once when I was mad and another when comparing four of them in headline, but if it is easer to attack a lie than to deal with the truth I understand. So you make up this lie about how I support Obama because I want to defeat all Republicans because that is easer for you to attack.

[+] -4 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago


????your thread tells people to support Obama by implying that if they don't, the 'left will get fooled again'????

????.....Could you possibly be any more full of shit....????

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

must I support Obama to hate the republicans? Now you sound like you acusse me of, yes voting for anyone except someone with the best chance, not just a chance of defeating whatever republican is on the ballot is being played for a sap by the 1%.

[-] -1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I do accuse you of supporting Obama, because it is correct. I don't care what your reasoning is behind it. If you vote for Obama and you advocate others to vote for him (don't get fooled again), then, by default, you are supporting him. Are you saying we should not vote for Obama and that I read between the lines incorrectly?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I see as you support Romney I do understand no matter your logic it is the outcome of action/inaction that matters, ok I least I know who you support now. Yes you got me I support Obama over Romney for the Presidency.

[-] -1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I am supporting Buddy Roemer, who will with enough support get the issues into the debate, and then be smart enough to drop out and not become a spoiler candidate. I think this is a viable strategy to support a decent human being and still, in the end, pick Obama over Romney, if I absolutely must. What do you think?


[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I've seen him talk never gets to the point or doesn't have much to say, but I haven't seen him much, either way as you point out it's not your logic it's the outcome of your actions which may not favor either one but how does help anybody, give me an ideal of Buddy's i should support him on. I mostly care about raiseing taxes enough to pay off the debt, he got anything on that?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I think your missing the point. He won't win. He knows this. Did you read the article? Obama and Romney are not going to bring up issues of corruption. He's saying give him some support to get him on the national stage so he can bring up the issue. He will drop out and not become a spoiler.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

If you want me,(and maybe you don't) help him get his message out, tell me at least one thing in his message,and not just "get the the corruption out" I am sure Obama/Romney would say the same, tell me something Buddy is saying that is worth getting out there. I wish someone would apporch me with as honest and open a mind on my views. Just tell me something about the message.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Now THAT'S the smartest thing I have read by you.

Finally, a real and positive strategy.

(Too bad Roemer has until this year supported the very things he is against now. He founded two banks, slashed social safety net budgets in his state, was in the chamber of commerce pushing for deregulation of industries, founded a plastics company that exploited cheap Mexican labor, sided with Reagan's agenda while in congress: in other words, except for his talking about the environment, he is a dyed in the wool representative of the 1%. Hell, even his own father, a politician himself, went to prison for corruption. And in Louisiana, among the most corrupt states in the country!)

But at least he's not a spoiler, and your strategy is still sensible and pragmatic.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I am asking JC to tell me one thing he has said I should support except for general bull that any of them say, figured he was like Paul a typical "fill his pockets on the outrage wagon", guy but I wasn't sure thanks for info on him.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I don't know a lot about him. Thanks for the info. I meant decent enough to talk about the corruption. Between Obama and Romney you wouldn't even know there was corruption. Anyway, if he can force Obama and Romney to address corruption in front of the public it would be something I could feel positive about.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

"if he can force Obama and Romney to address corruption in front of the public it would be something I could feel positive about."

I would, too.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Not a problem. I don't agree with everything that is said either. Good to be able to express your own point of view. Free speech is different than unremitting attacks to discredit support for a good cause - fighting greed corruption and crime.

[+] -4 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

We keep muddling along trying to do our best to support what we believe is the best way forward. All together, we're making a lot of noise and that counts for a lot.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

The issues are getting around to those who want to hear - in spite of a news coverage blackout.

We make progress. It is just really hard to appreciate that fact from time to time.


[-] -2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

Yeah, If I ever disagree with you and stinkle you again in the future, please know it does not mean I don't appreciate your efforts. Peace.

[-] 5 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago


Argument/discussion is essential for getting at all sides of an issue and makes sure it gets looked at thoroughly. From there it can move towards consensus.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I remind them that he is bringing home the soldiers so they can point their guns at us, but I don't know if they realize what letting coporations do whatever they want will lead to.



[-] 2 points by anonbankster (16) 8 years ago

Yes..the Ron Paul supporters in OWS but they are mostly libertarians who have to vote Republican for Ron Paul. They are not your typical mainstream GOP supporters. Either way, OWS isn't about supporting one political party because the 2 party system is bought and paid for the the One Percent! For a country that is suppose to be about the freedom of choice...the lack of diversity of political power is a joke that deserves to be pointed out as a political cartel.

[+] -4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

And here I thought OWS was about bringing about radical change to address the growing disparity between the very wealthy and everyone else? Am I wrong? It is clear to any that look that the GOP’s only purpose in holding public office is to defend the 1% and extend their power I see it everyday in Arizona, we can take effective action which includes reducing the number of elected GOP, or we can not it’s up to each of us. Ron Paul would trun all power over to the corporations and their boards of directors; he would put any who oppose them in prison, not my ideal of freedom.

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

What about this guy?

Remember him? He went viral. I don't think he's a GOP supporter but he's putting out a lot of support for a republican.


Personally I disagree with Ron on a lot of his policies... but I love the golden rule about war and ending the manipulation of the federal reserve and nationalizing it by putting it under the treasury and restoring constitutional primacy on the monetary system.

We need as many people on the side of OWS as possible. If there are GOP people here saying that Wall Street has it's hands in our government... that's still a good thing. It sucks that they support the GOP... but at least they're opening up to some truth about money in politics and Wall Street. Pushing those people away is a bad idea. Even some GOP supporters think the money needs to leave politics. Why not have people like that on our side?

You support Obama, but the last thing I want is for you to abandon OWS. I'd rather have you on our side because you want to end money in politics and take on Wall Street fraud. But you're pushing for separation with your anti-anyone not supporting Obama agenda. And that's not the best idea. Divide and conquer is their strategy. Our strategy is to unite.

We need as many people to take on Wall Street fraud as possible. If they support the GOP, or Obama, we need them on our side still. The more people that are aware of the fraud... the better and the more likely it will get fixed. No problem ever got solved over night. This will take time.

Plus look at it this way. If there are republicans in OWS... worse case scenario maybe they can help reshape the republican party by talking with their republican friends and spreading ideas and facts about Wall Street fraud, the need for regulations, and the manipulation it has on our government.

Please, stop trying to separate this group. Not supporting a candidate is what helps unite the 99% to realize the huge problem of Wall Street. After all that's why it's called Occupy Wall Street. It's not a partisan problem.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

We pasted Clean Election in Arizona in 1998, you may have heard about some of our laws, getting the money out is only part way there, I want the 1% to pay the debt their cronies ran up, that's where I lose all the Republicans, if there are any left after that then cool, but no I am not willing just to start picking up the tab and letting the game go on the way it does here in AZ.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

The Obama supporters are out again with their downvote button

"He said Obama works for the 1% too... downvote him!!!"

I'm not going to play your democrats versus republicans game. Divide and conquer is their strategy. I have criticism for POLITICIANS on BOTH ends of the political theater. We've talked many times of my true support for people like Dennis Kucinich, Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders.... Obama is not like any of those people I listed. Therefore he is on my list of people to criticize for the problem in this country. This is my policy If they supported any of the following, I will not support them. The Financial Modernization Act (which helped create the financial crisis) The Republican Jobs Act (which will create another financial crisis, this also further deregulated Wall Street and repealed regulations put in place to protect investors, the regs put in place after the ENRON fraud) The Patriot Act (which stole our 4th amendment) HR 347 (the anti-protest bill) The NDAA of 2012, without removing Section 1021 (which stole our 5th and 6th amendment) The War in Iraq (which was based on fraud) The TARP bailouts (which gave billions to a fraudulent financial system that stole people's money and homes instead of creating a real solution and implementing regulations to prevent future problems) Defense of Marriage Act (which is supported by bigots) Bombing nations that didn't attack us (which is supported by warmongers) Obama did not make that list.... and as president he therefore gets my criticism along with a majority of congress, both D's and R's

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

of course your not going to play, folks might learn something

[-] -2 points by VQkag (930) 8 years ago

One party signed the Norquist pledge, & wants to cut taxes for the 1%, they receive 92% of wall st contributions and watered down fin regs in Dodd/Frank. They deny climate change, support subsidies for fossil fuel corp, are against Alternative energy investment. They would cut oversight of corps who pollute our food/land/water/air. They are against gays, womens rights based on religious zealotry and do not seem to support the seperation of church and state. One party nominated the judges who supported citizens united, One party is attempting to suppress the vote through ALEC writtin legislation in many states. The parties are vastly different! your examples of troubling attacks on our constitutional rights are most serious. both parties are responsible. One party can be made to serve us in correcting those crimes against the people. Vote the issues. Be reasonable. don't spread untruths that the parties are the same, support OWS. Vote out pro norquist pols.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

That was very well put, and those are my sentiments exactly.

[-] 1 points by john23 (-272) 8 years ago

I consider myself a republican...but would never in a million years vote for Romney....although I can say the same about Obama as well.

I sympathize with OWS, but believe they aren't pinpointing the true cause of inequality.

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

low tax rates on the rich, maybe?

[-] 1 points by john23 (-272) 8 years ago

Yeah, i don't agree with that...that low taxes on the rich is the root of the problem....and i'm by no means anywhere near being rich...so i'm not trying to protect my $$$$.

How do the rich steal money from the middle and lower class? They don't....so why should we steal money from them through taxes?

It's a faulty banking system that screws the middle and lower class combined with big business in bed with big government.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 8 years ago

And who works for big business? who gets the subsidies from government which in turn become bonuses? Big business is only big because they are not taxed the same proportions as the middle class. If the middle class is paying fifteen percent of their wealth on taxes and the CEOs are paying less than ten percent of their wealth on taxes, who has the extra money to also buy one or two politicians? To call taxes theft is not a very compelling argument. The rich, by having extra money to buy politicians, are in a sense stealing from the middle class to subsidize the working class because they don't want to pay a livable wage.

[-] 0 points by john23 (-272) 8 years ago

I agree with you on pretty much everything but where you point the finger. Does business control government, you bet....is it business at fault? My argument is no....it is government at fault. Business could not take advantage of you without government. It's big business in bed with big government that hurts the consumer....not big business. How does microsoft steal your money? How does google steal your money? If they provide a good product, you buy it....the only way they can screw you over is through government (getting politicians elected that they want there to reap the benefits when they're in office). You have power over corporations everytime you buy something....the power is taken out of your hands when big business can buy big government and force things on the consumer.

My answer is this....the root cause is a relationship between big business and big government (look at the top campaing contributers for Romney and Obama...lovely Goldman Sachs)....they can get elected whoever they want because they have the money to contribute to campaigns....or get passed what they want passed because of lobbyists etc. So how do you get rid of that? You have to take monetary incentives out of government.....you have to cap total gross salaries from allll avenues of income of politicians in office to take monetary incentives out of being a politician....and get it back to where it was supposed to be...helping and providing for your country. If business can't "buy" government, business wouldn't be able to manipulate it.

Taxes are theft....what do you call taking money from someone and giving it to someone else without their approval? If its an argument on who is getting taxed unfairly then look again to big business in bed with big government.....big business can manipulate big government because of the monetary incentives big goverment gets from big business....once again you have to take money out of the equation to get government to once again work on behalf of the consumers....no matter what you do humans will always desire more money and greed will breed where there are large sums of money to be had....you have to get rid of that in government....it should be about providing a patriotic duty for your country.

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 8 years ago

Taxes are approved by the people through their representatives. So it is not theft. Ending corp personhood/citizens united and implementing public campaign funding should go the longest way at removing undo influence by the 1%. This should then give representation back to people whose approval will be given to large tax increases on the 1% who have stolen our govt, and rigged the system against the 99% for their own benefit.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

you already said you were Republican, saying you want no elected government just the kin d you can buy goes without saying

when they take it in the broadroom it's "free enterprize" when we use the ballot it's "stealing" you guys like to own the lansge don't you? It's stealing when they take 30% year after year and give the workers 2, well we cut taxes and grew this debt so they could get rich now it's tinme to pay the bill if you got over 5 mil when you die,

[-] 0 points by 1169 (204) 8 years ago


[-] 0 points by gosso920 (-24) 8 years ago

OWS = Obama's Winning Strategy, The President needs you "useful idiots" to bang the drum for his re-election campaign.

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

after the bot war of '17 I'm tired, OK whatever you say



[-] -1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 8 years ago

I will support mittens If you buy me a drink.

[-] -2 points by freewriterguy (882) 8 years ago

Romney may actually be able to do a good job because of his business management experience, he is certainly more qualified than any president we have had in a long time speaking from a resume standpoint, however, if he doesnt address the issue of poor people stuck in trailer parks paying 600 a month space rent, and another 300 a month trailer payment, combined with zoning ordinances, that say you can only live in a trailer park designated for such which are owned by multi state corporate conglomerates, I fear that like the rest, he may end up only serving the rich people.

I foresee that after the obama camp runs its smear campaign on bain capital and how it traded 1000's of jobs for profit, we may see a massive write in of Ron Paul at the last hurdle of the race.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

Romney doesn't give a shit about the poor. Don't you remember? "The poor have a safety net." And Romney wants to make cuts to that safety net.

Romney is a tool of the 1% and he is a fellow member of the group sucking life from the American Dream.

I also think Romney is a bigot. Segregation when it comes to marriage is messed up. Anyone who does not support equal rights does not deserve to be president.

Personally, I think the 2012 election is one of the worst in history. Romney or Obama is a lose//lose situation.... but it's a win for Goldman Sachs.

[-] -3 points by VQkag (930) 8 years ago

Romney business experience was making bains partners/stockholders wealthy. Not creating jobs! If creating jobs might make Bain people wealthy it would have been in cheap labor foriegn countries. Our problem is not a lack of wealth creation amongs the 1% job creators! Our problem is that those supposed 1% job creators have breached that part of our agreement with them they are sitting on trillions in wealth and are not crating american jobs!! Romney does not care about the poor "they have a safety net" remember. and his experience is not appropriate for AMERICAN job creation. Sorry. Support the 99% Vote out all pro vulture capital pols!

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Don't you think Bush was even a better businessman? I mean he had that MBS and all. Do you really think the President should be involved in zoning or are you just a troll?

[-] -2 points by freewriterguy (882) 8 years ago

well somebody should be involved, if not the president then who? The local county couldnt give a shit, we need someone who cares about our constitutional right to live on the earth for a change!

[-] -2 points by tallscott (11) 8 years ago

Occupy Minneapolis has one very active long-term member who is not only a Republican but is running for office as a Republican. In any case, if OWS isn't a rejection of electoral politics as usual, then what is it? Both parties are fully-owned subsidiaries of corporate America. Real democracy is in the streets!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago


which is why I'm calling for elections to be national and state holidays

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I guess I know what really sets them them off, I said raise taxes.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

PC can be annoying and confusing

in my election pamphlet, Susan Davis writes ...

I support making billionaires and millionaires pay thee fair share ....close loopholes on US job exporters... cut tax on small business


Susan Davis can't even suggest raising tax without saying "cut taxes" in the line

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

you know matt we agree on most everything except one I think, and it is that it is acceptable to do anything that increases the chance of even one Republican to be elected, I know elections suck, you know what else sucks, getting old, but you know what they say about the alteritive

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

we been closing those loopholes for at least 50 years

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Has he signed the pledge to never raise taxes?

What are his tax views?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

Obama signed the Bush tax cuts and might end up lowering the corporate tax rates.

Obama's views are bombing countries that didn't attack us and passing the Republican JOBS Act and stealing our rights by supporting unconstitutional legislation like the Patriot Act. And the bailouts for Wall Street frauds while they accelerated foreclosures on homes? Unlimited resources for the banks... and nothing for the people. Reminds me a lot of the republican I despised so much from 2000 to 2008.

Obama's administration is also suppressing torture photos and evidence which could be used to incriminate George Bush and members of his administration and bring them to trial for war crimes.

Goldman Sachs 2012 - Obomney

If you want to support these policies... that's on you.

Stop trying to turn OWS into a democrat ordeal. This is not an Obama 2012 rally.

Banks got bailed out... we got sold out!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Obama has stated clearly that he wants to raise taxes on the very wealthy. Why do you omit that? Is it your purpose here to distract and deceive? I support Obama because he is not Romney and one of them will be president, we had a chance to pick someone else but that was in 2008. Now to see even one vote not be used to defeat a Republican makes everything else we do small, we cannot win while Republicans rule, that’s a fact. If you were interested in having a true discussion you would be truthful in posts instead of misleading. It is becoming more clear why you are here, you are fearful the GOP may lose.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

Now see. This is why your getting attacked by people on the left as well as on the right. You are hounding after people to vote for a Wall Street candidate. Do you not get the hypocrisy in that?

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I am hounding people to defeat any republican they can in any way possible, if that means voting for a D then fine, the most important thing anyone can do for the country today, is defeat a republican.



[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

Well, at least your passionate about your cause. I should let everyone know that fear (guilt being number two) is at the top of the list of the most formidable techniques used to control people.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

fear is effective, the truth on the other hand is useless as it cannot be manipulated, yet is extremely powerful, that is why it is so rarely used I believe, it can not be used to make the wielder powerful, only those that hear it

[-] -1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

I don't claim to know the truth. I only offer my perspective. And I don't use authority to tell you what to do. I only stand up for myself against those who try to do the thinking of others. Everyone should look and find their own truth.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I agree I don't post stuff like "don't do this here" but others do...I defend my positions because I think they make sense for what we want to do, is there a problem with that, i always say each person must decide for themself.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 8 years ago

Thanks for understanding what I mean. Your defending your point of view, so am I. What the hell is with all the collapsed threads?

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

Being annoying isn't effective. Now instead of using all these reasons for why I won't vote Obama... i'm not going to vote for him just to spite you.

Blind support will get you nowhere. At least criticize Obama where he is in the wrong and get him to fix his mistakes. Instead you try and suppress the truth... which will get you nowhere.

Obama appointed Monsanto's Michael Taylor to the FDA

Obama even reappointed Bush's Ben Benrnanke to the Federal Reserve

He has been sued by the ACLU several times for war crimes

"I'm not disgusted at President Obama personally. It's President Obama's policies on civil liberties and national security issues I'm disgusted by." - ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero

The Obama administration’s adoption of the stonewalling tactics and opaque policies of the Bush administration flies in the face of the president’s stated desire to restore the rule of law. ... when these (torture) photos do see the light of day, the outrage will focus not only on the commission of torture by the Bush administration but on the Obama administration's complicity in covering them up. - ACLU

If these torture pictures were released, crimes could easily be brought against the Bush administration. So why the suppression?

He refused to sign an executive order banning discrimination based on sexual orientation.

He's bombed more countries than Bush.

Obama also turned his back on whistle blowers even though before his presidency he said they should be praised. Free Bradley Manning! All it takes is a pardon.

Obama also supported the patriot act, which essentially allows the federal government to delete the 4th amendment.

His administration has continually suppressed and refused to reveal information about the wars.

Obama along with congress passed for the first time ever, indefinite detention laws of American citizens.

He supported giving 700 billion dollars to Wall Street all the while Wall Street banks committed acts of fraud and accelerated foreclosures on homes.

Goldman Sachs was his second largest backer in 2008

this is a partial list of why I will not vote for Obama.

All Obama had to do to get my vote in 2012 is not bomb more countries than Bush. End of story. It's Obama's fault that he doesn't have my vote.

But please feel free to downvote my comment because I will not vote for Obama... even though I'm obviously speaking out against huge problems in this country.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Spiting me is a good way to make your choice,

so you comment on my post don’t bother with the question you just knows it threatens your GOP so you attack, ok, got it wasn’t sure about you TM, but I am now as soon as I started talking about letting the 1% pay for the debt with their trust funds that’s when you guys piled in, guess the thought of the 99% inheritance tax struck a nerve.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 8 years ago

I swear it seems like this person follows me around too. At first I didn't mind, but he does exactly that... hounds people about how you're responsible for all the problems if you don't vote for Obama in 2012 even if you had done so in 2008. It's annoying as hell.

[-] -2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 8 years ago

I'm a Republican who believes that the problem of political corruption is too important for us to bicker about left versus right ideologies. Both sides of the political spectrum have an interest in reducing the influence of money on our government.


[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

That simply is not true, I live in Arizona we passed Clean Elections in 1998, ever since, the Republicans have been trying to kill it and the Democrats have been trying to defend it, so what you say is simply not true, far more elected Ds support public funding than elected Rs.


[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 8 years ago

I think you mean right vs right. The democrats are right wing. There is no real congressional left.

[-] 5 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

and whose fault is that?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Yes, perhaps, but it is moderate right vs extremist right. And there is still a difference in terms of the matter of federal court, especially Supreme court appointments. Romney just named Robert Bork (!) as his chief advisor on judicial appointments. Bork makes Sacalia and Thomas look like socialists. Compare them with Kagan and Sotamayor, and the differences become apparent.

[-] 4 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

I could make a list of good things Obama has done right - my list is long.

I could launch an attack on what Obama has not done right - my list is long.
but I cannot think of a SINGLE thing that Romney would have done better.

I think many people have difficulty confronting the fact that we expected that we were electing a king who could achieve great things because he said he could.
Closing Gitmo is the simplest - he said he would close it - but congress would not let him. We do not have a king.
The real issue here is why did Obama & the whole party let the Rs trample them? I do not believe that Hillary would have let that happen.

We can argue forever over the past - but, as American citizens, our reponsability is to do what is best for America's future.

We can vote for koch-norquist-alec
We can vote for America

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 8 years ago


Then again, until Melenchon's popularity surge, Sarkozy was effectively trying to drag to the right to get the FN vote. Then he started to effectively contradict his 2007 campaign speeches in the hopes of seeming more "in tune with french workers" :p

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Yes, and congratulations to the French people! (I hope it happens in Greece, too.) The problem is, the French have had a long tradition of leftist politics in the mainstream, but we in the States haven't done the work to make that happen here. I'm not even sure how possible that is: it just seems the American character, myth-fed from birth, is far more conservative than just about any European country. Even Europe's right is somewhat to the left of our left at this point.

OWS has done this country a tremendous service by shifting the dialogue a bit, and giving a real transfusion to the moribund and dispirited left.

And although I well understand the reasoning for staying out of party politics, I still hope it doesn't inspire those on the left to abandon voting against the most extreme right and shooting progressive causes in the foot as the left did in 1969 with the election of Nixon.

I see that on this forum often. In their zeal (read: zealotry) to remain true to revolutionary principles, too many ignore the reality of one party being far more dangerous than the other, despite some tragic and misguided overlap between the two. I too often see false equivalencies being expressed in combination with hostile directives to not vote or vote only for un-winnable minor third party candidates, the only effect of which is to the split the vote on the left (admittedly for a deeply flawed president) while strengthening the vote, by default, of the most extreme right.

As you and others have pointed out correctly, the system itself is very sick, possibly terminally. Voting for anyone right now will not solve the worst problems. But one can still act like the Little Dutch Boy, plugging the hole and forestalling a deluge of unmatched evil while building something better.

[-] 3 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes it is a quandary we are in. The person that we have to vote for does not deserve our vote, but the person that we should not vote for deserves it less, as like you say, the party that he is in is "far more dangerous than the other." I feel like a dupe, but I will do what I have to.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

And all this happened because so many turned their back on someone who truly did deserve our vote, Al Gore, so what are we to learn. How do we make the boring guy win when he's the right one? Are we to let whomever looks good on TV be the winner, because politics is too dirty to be involved? Only by being involved do we ever get some worth voting for that can also win, and we get to do that ever so often, in 08 we could have had Hilary would she have been tougher on the banks? I think so, I think she would have been tougher on everyone, but I always felt so, I understand, people bought the “change” thing, truth is we did something that year that they can never take away, so sometimes things happens, still wish it had been our first woman.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Hind-sight is always 20/20. I like many people thought Obama was the right guy, but obviously I made a big mistake. I don't think that even if Hillary was President it would have made that big of a difference though as both parties are beholden to neoliberal politics. That is the main problem.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I was there in foresight, just as now, knocking doors the whole thing.

The both parties beholden part, well if folks like we stay out then who will run things, nobody? I never thought that Obama had the understanding of just how bad the GOP is, not understanding that is what is truly hurting us, until and unless we shake the GOP off we will not be able to move forward, so we can keep on doing what we have been doing or we can get rid of one of corporate parties so we will have room for a new one, but till the GOP is well below 30 in the Senate doing anything other than working night and day to defeat Rs, well that is the problem, the easiest thing in the world is to say it's all the same that way we don't have to be responsible we don't have to actually look at what they do, but that's what they're counting on isn't it?

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Let me add that I applaud anyone who takes the time and energy to follow their convictions with shoe leather as you did with Hillary, but i do have to agree with Trevor in this discussion especially his top post here beginning with, "what about this guy?" This forum should not turn into "election central," not my term in my opinion. Gee, i already said that, didn't I?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Your heart is in the right place. The main thing ( I believe ) is to hold those in government accountable to the Constitution of the USA and their oath of office to support and defend from both domestic (greedy corrupt) and foreign threats. Until the people stand up for their rights (proper representation) and kick out of office those that clearly do not uphold the Constitution. We will have a continuing loss of government.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You may believe that there would have been a big difference if Hillary had been elected President. I don't. Yes i know that we have to defeat the Rs, but I, like most people just do not have the enthusiasm that i once had. I would not want to see OWS take a position on the Presidential election, ot any election. A third party is definitely what is needed, and at some point before the 2016 elections, that should be one of our goals.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

No third party till the GOP is gone, all it will do is help them win, I think we can rid the nation of the poisin that is the GOP, but I know that's a big goal, but much smaller than putting a non D or R into the White House. I am all for getting into the primaries and pushing the Ds to the left, till wee get rid of the GOP then we won't need the Ds anymore.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I disagree...respectfully of course. The GOP will never be gone. It can be pulled to the left in the same way the dems have been pulled to the right over the past thirty years...by convincing ordinary joe's there that the repubs are not working in favor of their interests, no matter what they say. This is the first time in a long time, since OWS started that both parties have been forced to rethink their positions, I believe. In other words, I think the whole political spectrum has moved to the left.

If we go about this the right way, by not making our struggle a partisan one i think that we can reach into the right of center for support. Our struggle is about right vs. wrong...not dems vs. repubs.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Exactly -

FOR The People, Health and Prosperity for all.

Or against The People and the World.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

had to reply here. Yes more defiance less of this political shit that has been used to stifle us.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Funny - notice how my comments are not liked? Don't care just noted it on reviewing the thread.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes vote issues, but this is a revolution and voting will not make things much better, no matter who gets in at this point in time. Defiance to the whole corrupt system should be our main form of transforming this bull-shit that has been going on for half of my life.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Yes - we must openly defy the bullshit that is happening. Multifaceted resistance.

Occupy WallStreet.

Occupy the White House.

Occupy the Department of Justice.

Occupy the SEC.


In the meantime same time do everything else that comes to hand as well.

Keep the pressure on - on all fronts.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

yes the dems are slightly better, but they both stink. That's another reason why I am here

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Vote issues. Support those who support our ( The Peoples ) issues - kick all others to the curb.

Unite in common cause People!

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes, i have noticed. I am not sure where these guys came from, and i am not sure what their goal is. As you probably know by now though I am not big on partisan politics, and promoting one party over the other even though i do believe one is worse..... and having this go from a defiant revolution into a controllable partisan one. We may be at odds here. That paradigm has been used to control us for a long time. Many of the more moderate posters here disagree with me on this, I know. I do not believe that they are dem co-opters though, nor do I believe that they are repub trolls either, yet anyway....as they do represent the feelings of many in OWS, and to a big degree, mine too. I just think that it is crazy to think that by voting one way or the other...that it is going to make a big difference. Everyone should follow their conscience when and if they decide to vote. That is what I will do...and to be honest, i still don't know what i will do.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

That is exactly why I am trying to push voting the issues and voting out all who are in office that are not supporting the people/constitution.

Follow Wisconsin's lead - kick to the curb anti people anti world politicians.

Petition for good legislature and against bad legislature - this is the same battle cry for public protest.

Support The People - Support the World.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

had to reply here. yes. "...unite in common cause..." Those are issues that would gain the support of the majority of Americans, as would ending these fucking wars we are always in.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Yep - plenty to get behind. All kinds of ground for common cause. Just get past the political non-sense.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

For me it is about addressing the 1% and the 99%, the Republicans fight firmly for the 1% they always will, I think the support we got across the country came from people who see this disparity, they see in their own lives how the 1%take everything for themselves, the GOP exist to protect the 1% nothing else, that is all they ever "go to mats" for, we can win this thing this time but not if we stop talking about the 1% vs 99% and not if we let the GOP weasel out, by getting soft, this is the time to move, we can do this, if not, well the 1% will just keep running things and we can hope for a good King.

Remember the Ds were pulled right, when people started losing seats, you must be in the game to make a difference.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

a problem with power centralization is neglect

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I agree, much of where we are came about first by creating certain ways of thinking about the world, freedom, the revolution I want to change those thoughts, I hope a lot more people do to.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Had to reply here. It's not that i don't agree with your synopsis that republicans are bad guys, it's just that I believe that the dems are assholes too. I do not want to see this forum or OWS on the whole devolve into a 'controllable' political one. By doing so we will be taking the fire out of this movement. That is not to say that people should not take things like this on, on an individual level, as I realize that people have limitations, commitments, etc. that prevent them from doing the things necessary to make the sea change we really need.

Their are a whole host of ways to further this righteous movement that will keep the fires burning hot. Pushing for dem canidates on here is not one of them, as it reinforces the belief that this can be fixed by voting for the right person, or party. We have not come as far as we have because we have been following a Common Cause, or Public Citizen-like campaign. We have come this far because this has been a fuck you, recalcitrant up-rising, and that is the fervor that we have to maintain.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

If you find that I appear too "controllable" let me know, I do not like the ideal that this is a place where some things can be discussed and others not, I sincerely believe that I support a path toward addressing wealth inequality, perhaps some could say that going beyond getting money out of politics is too far, others include antiwar as part, why should each not support that which they think will help?

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

"....the Republicans firmly for the 1%...." Yes, i agree, now we have to convince the more moderate everyday repubs that their interests are with the 1%, not theirs. Our job should be to create that divide in the republican party, and I just don't think that making this partisan, any more than it has to be is to our benefit. That's all.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

I have seen people reach across to the GOP for years, they will talk about anything except anything that threatens the 1%, I want to make people too embarrassed to be Republicans, you might step back and think, How did we get here? The GOP under Reagan set out on a multi year campaign to make liberal a dirty word, they created many sports fans for their team, and they know that over the long haul that's all that matters to enough people so they can win, we cannot win this by putting flowers in their guns, not when they're shooting, that only works when they are reluctant to fire, here the GOP has shifted the very thought processes of the public, we will not achieve our goals, with our heads in the sand pretending it's OK to vote republican, for any republican, many who study this agree with me the GOP have gone insane. Here's a link to my post on two of them.


The other thing is this, if we don’t take down at least one party there is no room for one of our own.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Support issues do not attack people. Push Osta, push repeal of corporate personhood, push for continuing tax breaks for the needy and tax hikes on the wealthy. Push for a strong EPA. Push for green energy technology investment and implementation. All of these things and more.

Find ways to unite in common cause People!

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes i understand there are evil people out there in politics especially on the far right, but many of their constituents are moderate and have the same concerns as we do. The wackos have advanced their agenda using lines that came from lobbyists, and they repeated them over and over again. This was especially true in the health-care debate, and that is why we did not get real reform.

For a population who has come so accustomed to image, and sound bites, we should think about using those same tactics, and keep pounding away with them, in the hopes that people will really try to understand what has, and continues to go on in this country, and that it is beyond party. In the meantime, we have to be out in the streets keeping the pressure on. As much as all the posters do here, I believe that many of them could better use their time doing other things to see that their local Occupiers/protesters feel that they have our support. It is that sense of community that will be vital if we are to succeed. Many of these threads/posts would reach more people as as letters-to-the editor too.

In any event, you will never convince me that this forum should become a political platform in terms of advocating for parties or canidates. I do respect your contributions here though.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

The editors will never publish my letters, Al Franken won't talk about the 2001 tax cut and the 15% rate, I'm not saying don't write them it's just they pick the ones to print. For me I welcome those willing to take on large tax increases but I don't find many and any other action is rearranging the chairs, so setting the parties aside do we have a difference of opinion there? It’s not that doing some other things wouldn’t be good but if we get there without accomplishing some real changes on tax policy, well I guess if we all give up on money and go to batter or something, like some suggest, I mean I guess there a lot of well thought out systems, but yes I am still trying to fix this one because in-between systems can be a couple of tough hundred years or so.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Had to reply here. Please don't take this personal, but yes if you believe that putting a lot of time and effort into promoting and voting for the supposed right people on 'here' is a winning formula, I disagree. This paradigm is what has been used to 'controll' the masses for years. We have had the mistaken belief that either party is really looking out for out interests, when they clearly are not.

For the kind of change that we truly need, we need people out in the streets, not promoting canidates. This will require educating people that our problems are beyond what the dems or repubs are capable, and/or wanting to deal with. We are trying to take down neoliberalism, and that is a huge task that will not be accomplished in the voting booth, any time soon.

FRF, I know your heart is in the right place, and your goals are similar to mine, I just don't believe that having this forum devolve into an "election central" (as one poster put it) is helpful. I do not have the link, but if you can google up Chris Hedges, Brace Yourself....., you will come to a three hour CSpan interview wtih him. It is well worth watching. I have seen it three times over the past several months. It made me realize what a monumental struggle that we are in, and it is not second to any other movement before it.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Please don't get caught in thinking that is twenty years too old, you must become familiar with the modern Republican Party to know how tough this fight will be and how important it is. If the Ds go down, I don't mind they've done little, (well except in '93 those were real heroes), so be it. The thing I care about is the total removal of the modern Republican Party from public policy decisions before it’s too late. I guess that does make me partisan and I do want to use this forum to communicate both what the media will, about various things that reflect clear differences (that many do care about) and the things they won’t about how out thinking about what money is and how much power should we as a free people allow it to have in our society. Is one in ten Ds ready to deal with that? No, even fewer among the elected ones. But the Rs are a construed trained and aware army against it. The important thing is that almost everyone feels it, most just don’t have the words because the 1% had all the words baked up in a think tank and that’s all we ever get to hear. In the end what do I do? Talk about the need to put the fire out while I water the garden with my garden hose or do I turn it on the fire, sure may not put it out till I get more help in here, but no need not to do what I can in the meantime.

I've seen Hedges, I'll look for it.


[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Might as well give up and go home, oh well....


[-] 1 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

As I’ve said in other post I like to watch Mad Maxx movies, but I don’t want to live in one.


[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

And so you are reveled…





























[-] -3 points by FcukBushbama (-2) 8 years ago

I saw this somewhere else and thought it was worth sharing in this thread...

How To Spot The Pro-Regime Demopublican Plants In This Forum

To spot those trying hardest to co-opt this forum and use it to turn the OWS defiant into the Demopublican compliant, look for the pos[t]ers with ridiculously high point scores like "DKAtoday" and who seem to be logged on here 8/12 hours a day like "FactsRFun". Unless pos[t]ers like these are independently wealthy, somebody wanting to preserve the tyranny of our corporate-controlled false-choice two-party system must be paying them for their incessant lies suggesting that voting for puppet Bushbama or puppet Obomney will in any way hinder or delay the fascist takeover of America - and the world - planned generations ago:


Fcuk Obama and Romney. Fcuk the Democratic and Republican Parties. And fcuk Third Party feel-good mental-masturbation windmill-charging:

Revolution is the only Solution...

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Is it my fault taking money from trust fund babies was so easy in the 90's? So what if I give back four hours or so a day to my country, why don’t you post something that reflects the core problem of wealth inequality, oh that’s right your bosses won’t let you:



oh yeah, really nice bio, tells a lot

[-] -3 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

I am conservative, and I support some of what OWS has talked about. Back in the original days when the focus was on getting money out of politics, for example. Unfortunately, there is so much other garbage (just my opinion...) that the things that both sides could have agreed on and worked together towards fixing has gotten lost in the process.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

OWS is also about the 99%, now what that is, is a reference to the fact that 1% of the population hold almost all the wealth in the country and the 99% work their whole lives and are being told they should not even expect a few crumbs from the 1% in their old age, well a lot of us are upset about that. I really don't see how any conservative which one binding principal is low taxes for the super wealthy could in any way support OWS.

[-] -2 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

You can't limit the democrat or republican party to one principal. That is like me saying "the one binding principal for democrats is free handouts for the lazy." It is much more complicated than that. I won't cast my vote for a person or a party based on any one issue. I weigh the good with the bad, and see which person/party I most agree with. There are things about the republicans that I don't agree with - however, I still find more to support with them than the democrats. I believe in freedom first, and freedom comes with a cost, for sure. Too much of the democratic platform includes more government and less freedom.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

The Republicans are the ones who made it about one issue, no tax increases ever, but cut them at every chance, now that don't make sense, and we got to get rid of those that don't make sense. What could be freer than being able to quit your job without losing health care? What the GOP call freedom. is just being free to do exactly what your boss says down to who you sleep with or what you and your doctor talk about. I don't know about you but being "free" to do my master's bidding is not freedom.

[-] -1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

You are confuses about freedom. Freedom is about having the ability to make choices, and then the accountability to live with those choices. The DoI promised life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That means the ability to go after it and get it. It didn't promise that it would be easy. The government should be in place to protect that pursuit, but I think it has gone astray in the last few decades.

The issue with raising taxes is an issue of fairness. I agree that everyone should give an equal percentage of what they have, and that the tax system and loopholes are out of control. But just to say - take from them because they have more - is not fair.

And, I would prefer my boss to tell me who to sleep with or what to talk to my doctor about moreso than the government. Because I can quit my job more easily than I can quit my country.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

and that is the answer, quit your job, you don't mind coporations running everything because the wealthy few run those, you just don't want any power vested where the people might get at it

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

If you are going to make assumptions, at least make them on the things that I have actually said. If you would go back and read my initial response you would see that I am in favor of getting money out of politics. That is one of the areas that I agree with OWS.

[-] 5 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

As long as we do nothing to address the overall power of money in our lives, you hold the opinion that free use of money and freedom are one and the same do you not?

[-] -1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 8 years ago

Free use of money is an aspect of freedom, but freedom is comprised of many different facets.

[-] -3 points by ICantSpellShoes (2) 8 years ago

Heck yeah they are conspiring against us! They're backing Romney in stinking DROVES!

[-] 5 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Very few come here to defend the wealthy, at least out in the open.


[-] -3 points by jgriff (6) from Tampa, FL 8 years ago

Plenty on the right are writing in Ron Paul or voting for Buddy Roemer.

[-] 6 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Don't knolw anything about Buddy except he's kinda funny, Ron Paul on the other hand wants to trun everything over to the corporations stright up, I guess at least it's honest.

[+] -4 points by TheMisfit (48) 8 years ago

I am fairly "conservative" on many issues and I fully supported OWS when it first started, but it has warped into a pro-communist movement that has effectively turned off many of the "99%" and has become little more than a mouthpiece of the extreme left. OWS has become its own downfall by losing focus on its core belief.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (8277) from Phoenix, AZ 8 years ago

Do you even know what the 99% is? It is so funny to read your crap, talking about how OWS has become communist, baby we haven't even started yet, you should read more of my stuff, it'll scare the hell out of a 1% like you.