Forum Post: Do we want to continue as a leaderless movement? Or do we want a leader? If the people want a leader, I am willing to be that man for us.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 21, 2011, 6:03 a.m. EST by JPHOENIX
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I've read several posts from people asking for a leader to emerge. So I am curious - do we, as a democratic majority - want a leader? Or is that just a minority? Because if we do, then I want you to know that I am willing to take on the responsibilities if I am able to, and if the people want me to.
I live in New York City, and have a degree in civil engineering, but cannot find a job in the field right now. And believe me, I've tried everything.
-Sent out over a thousand resumes online to jobs in over a dozen cities around the country.
-Walked into offices in a sharp suit and tie in person with cover letters, references, etc. in three different cities.
-Worked with dozens of recruiters.
-Asked friends to ask around within their networks, and offered a free Vegas trip to anyone who could help me land an interview that would lead to a job
-Contacted embassies to try and find work internationally in Finland, Australia, Dubai, Japan, Canada.
-Handed out flyers on the street outside of office buildings / put flyers on cars with my contact info, brief work history, and an offer of 10% of my first year's salary as a referral bonus for anyone who can find me a suitable job.
-Considered putting my face on a billboard with a website for people who can offer me a job. Spoke with someone who actually tried this, and said it was very expensive (out of my price range) and didn't offer great results anyway.
-Tried starting a business, but did not have the capital/connections to create a livable wage off of it quickly enough in this economic climate.
This has been going on for almost two years already. I have been working various part-time jobs to get by.
I have around $40,000 of debt left to pay off - if someone can help me figure out a way to eliminate this debt, I will devote myself completely to this movement and risk everything - my health, my freedom, my life - for this movement because that's how strongly I believe in it. I'm doing everything in my power to scratch and claw my way towards paying off my debt so that I can hopefully one day soon start working on my ideas for change full-time.
I have amazing ideas waiting to be implemented with the right manpower and resources. My goal is to eliminate poverty and create a plan of self-sufficiency that frees citizens from relying on the financial system for the bare necessities for survival - not just in the states, but worldwide. I have done extensive research in my free time to begin to make these things a reality. Not to say that I have all the answers, because I don't. But what I do have is the drive to do whatever it takes to find them.
For now, there is nothing I can do to eliminate this debt quickly with part-time underemployed wages. It is the only thing holding me back. Any ideas on that will be welcomed.
So, I'm curious - OWS members - Do we want a leader or not? I'm all for what the majority wants. Yay or nay?
What creative job hunting techniques... I'm rooting for you. Keep us posted. I'm satisfied with the General Assembly consensus approach to decisions and the shared leadership concept. There must be places OWS can use your enthusiasm and creativity.
Cool, someone running for the leadership of OWS. I'd be happy to vote for you but I'd want to know where you stand on the violence issue, and your interpretation of the 1st amendment. If you have a sound and sensible platform, I'll even campaign for you. And if you got elected, we could turn this ship around and bring it back to its original message which has gotten lost in the mayhem.
Why are you so eager to get framed for rape, child abuse or other horrors that will then take OWS down? And I am not even considering the chances for corruption.
Here's the thing. I'm not eager. I could be one of the people creating youtube videos, talking to the press, trying to put my name in lights, etc. But I don't. I like my anonymity because I want to be treated like an equal. By becoming an icon, you lose the authenticity in your interactions with people forever.
With great power comes great responsibility. I do not want to be a leader. But I am capable and will do it if we need one. I have a lot of ideas that I am working on to solve many of the issues that ail us. From a larger platform, they would be able to pick up momentum faster. I'm an inventor at heart, not a politician. But I am also willing to make the sacrifices necessary to stand up for what I believe in. Even if that means having to deal with the things you previously mentioned.
Here's a recent post of mine. http://occupywallst.org/forum/some-food-for-thought/
You still miss the point that your sacrifice would also take OWS down, no matter how good your intentions. It's why wingnuts demand a leader. It's why Occupy Cleveland picked Shelby the border collie as their leader.
I'm not missing the point. This post was asking people if the majority want a leader or not. If not, then I will not be one.
The Revolution has a theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&feature=related
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
The Revolution starts here! No one can silence the Revolution!
Think about it... Think twice. When the aliens come, the first thing they always say is "take me to your leader." And, it's amazing how quickly we serve them up, too. I have no clue who or what you stand for, but I'd suggest starting at the local level and seeing what you can contribute there. That's just my opinion, though. Leadership is all about service. The greatest flattery of all is when you are genuinely nominated to protect those things which we all hold most dear in our hearts. Food for thought.
Ok you are my leader, now what?
So far it seems like there are more people against leadership than for it - on this post anyway. But if you are willing to help I have some ideas we can work on.
On student loans, please look at:
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/response/taking-action-reduce-burden-student-loan-debt
Nice. Thanks. This definitely helps in the sense of lowering monthly payments - but overall increasing the amount owed as the interest will grow faster. My monthly payments are manageable right now - I'm more concerned with generating income so that I can eliminate the bill completely as fast as possible and start spending money on socially beneficial ideas rather than interest to banks.
Nay. We don't want a leader. But thank you for asking. Please devote your energy instead to raising awareness and bringing your knowledge to GAs so we can come up with some real solutions rather than perpetuating the status quo.
Thank you.
The current broken system is good at "killing the messenger" and ignoring the message. No, the movement does not need a leader (Pinata) that gives the system a diversionary focus to punch at. The current power structure cannot kill an idea whose time has come.
I don't want any official "leader". It is working great as it is. Anyone who does anything for the movement is a leader. Anyone can represent the movement also. I represent OccupyEdinburgh, for example. So do all the other members of OccupyEdinburgh. I have the back of all people in the movement, and know they have my back also.
OK. So far it seems many people are satisfied with it the way it is. Do you think we should eventually form a leadership structure? Or ever create solid demands?
No. We have a leadership structure already. Every member is a leader. We do have "solid demands", only one demand actually: To end the monied corruption of our Democracy.
If this is our one demand then we need consensus. Once we have consensus then it needs to translate itself into action on the street level all across the country where groups are active -
So that a protest outside the Burlington Vermont post office highlighting the postal budget issue that threatens layoffs reflects that core value - corruption out -
just as protesters in California or New York need to link their protests to that same core value -
and do so in a highly visible way so that we reduce the confusion that is evident from the comments of outsiders that have appeared here whining.
Or not. I mean, it should be obvious - the ambiguity can be somewhat useful, but the risk is that with that ambiguity others may set the definition for us.
The demand "to end the monied corruption of our Democracy" was made by our "founding fathers", Adbusters. We all joined the Occupy Movement and should adhere to their founding principle. Of course things can evolve, and there should always be consensus, and members should be clear in their own minds as to the Movement's demands. I guess any changes would be likened to an "Amendment to the Constitution". That would be a major step though. From what I have seen, people are very happy with our purpose and goal as it is now. Above all, we must have a focus and clarity of purpose.
This is exactly how I feel. Organization of protests to educate people how to best conduct themselves is fine, but formal leadership at the level of spokesperson will only obscure that one clear message.
I'm sorry, but every communist revolution has needed a leader (Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, etc.). We need a leader NOW.
Hers a whole shitload of jobs for ya http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobs/list/q-civil+engineer
Thank you.
Question though - Have you ever applied to jobs through an online system like this recently? I constantly apply to jobs through Monster, CareerBuilder, Craigslist, EngineerJobs, Simply Hired, etc. every week.
The companies receive thousands of emails for each position - it's like picking out of a hat. So rarely do you hear back from any of them. I've sent out over a thousand resumes and maybe gotten 10 or so interviews. Less than 1% efficiency rate. And that's just to get an interview. Getting an offer is a whole new challenge with extremely low percentages.
When you do hear back from them (I've been on about a dozen interviews) you are competing against 10+ people for one spot - many of whom have 7-10+ years of experience who are willing to work for way below what they had previously earned. This makes it very tough for recent grads without extensive experience to compete. These companies know how bad the economy is and they have us by the balls. The only jobs I've gotten are part-time, low wages, no health insurance, awful working conditions. I wish there was another way - if there's something I haven't discovered yet I will try it. But what it comes down to is, if you have 3 jobs for 10 people, it's a game of musical chairs. Someone isn't getting a seat.
You sound creative and convinced of your own abilities and yet you can't start your own business because you don't have capital, but you are able to fly friends to Las Vegas? For about $100 you can set up a business in most states. Businesses are much more prone to do contract work than hire an employee. Contract yourself out to engineering firms for peace work, and you will find it. Don't limit yourself just to civil engineering. If you can use Cad or other similar drafting programs, there are manufacturers who will hire you on a contract basis. Be creative, you don't need a job, you need to take the bull by the horns. There are lots of ways to make money.
This is the Vegas incentive plan -
Say you find me a job paying $50,000/yr. through your network.
I use some of that to pay for your Vegas trip. You win and I win. The Vegas trip offer was simply an incentive for individuals to want to explore their network for opportunities. So far it hasn't worked out - so I haven't sent anyone to Vegas yet. But if someone did find me a good opportunity and helped me land an interview through someone they knew, I gladly would.
What do you mean by peace work? I'm unfamiliar with it. Setting up a business was not the problem, that was easy - generating sufficient revenue is. Thanks for your input.
I meant piece work. call manufacturers who need things drafted, who have laid off engineering staff over the last few years. They contract out most of this work now. Get a name for yourself and your in business. You can write off alot of your personal housing expenses if you work from home, and know what you are doing. I am one of these people who do that.
Really? I would do that - didn't even know it existed. I may have to brush up on my CAD skills a bit but if this is a legitimate way to make an actual living above the poverty line - and working from home - it sounds ideal.
Of course. You can command anywhere from $25 to $40 an hour
Awesome. I sent you a private message if you want to discuss further
thanks for the generous offer. Your resume is good, but you miss the point entirely. To be a leader; lead. Nobody is stopping you. But the movement isn't going to have leaders like you are thinking of. By all means be a leader the best way to do that is to get to work on the wiki. Heck, if you work hard enough at it, you might even get some recognition as such. Aside from this, systems and game theory both tell us that being leaderless movement has very strong advantages. You can think of that in two ways. Either think of it as no leaders or think of it as EVERYONE is a leader.
The degree and power of your leadership hinge upon the WORK you do for the movement. In terms of volunteering to be THE leader, my resume i think would easily outweigh yours and as a THEGUY leader I'd be better. BUT. Its not a question of you or me or fifteen other people... The most powerful position to take is that he who leads in this movement leads via their right actions. REAL authority is derived from TRUTH. I'd be a VERY good leader, but OWS is far better off without me leading in THAT sense. Find your power and wield it; come to the wiki, generate some articles, get things moving.. lead. Don't ask permission and don't wait for the time to come. The time is now. Act and act with strength and purpose.
You can't be THAT kind of leader. But you can be the OTHER kind of leader. Do it. Nobodies holding you back. Thats what i am doing.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
We don't need no stinkin' leader.
What we need is a representative.
Leader, representative - these are just terms that have similar meanings but each of us defines it the way we want to. What I ask is if you think we need one main figure or not - because many seem to believe that we don't need one.
It's not semantics at all.
Leaders lead.
Representatives represent.
They should get that one correct, even on wiki.
OK. So you're saying a leader would be too authoritarian whereas a representative is good because it's based on the idea of a republic. Some people seem to want minimal hierarchal structure - so not even a representative it seems.
Sheep need a leader. Packs need a leader.
Humans need a representative.
Exactly. Every member of the Movement is a representative of the Movement.
Once the platform and grievances are distilled, it will become necessary to find a way to inject that representation in our nations "politics".
To affect change it will have to happen.
It is already happening. What the Movement is doing is driving politics. However, we are non politicaI and non leader based. We all know what we stand for and that is to "end the monied corruption of our Democracy". There are other movements also, such as the anti-War Movement, the Feminist Movement and the Union Movement. All have their own stances, and so do we, the Occupy Movement.
Anyone who wants the job is automatically disqualified.
I've read several posts from people asking for a leader. I want to know if the majority of the people want one or not. All I'm saying is that I am willing to make the sacrifices necessary if that's what the people want. If the people don't want me to lead, I will not do so. If we find a good leader, I will support them 100%. Be supportive of fellow OWS members who are willing to put it all on the line for your rights rather than being condescending and perhaps we will make some progress!
Thank you for being willing to step forward and offer your services. To my knowlege the consensus is that the movement can be more effective, at least for the forseeable future, without prominent leadership. This is simply my understanding of the situation, and subject to change by the vote of the general assembly. You might want to put your case to them directly:)
So far, it seems like most on this post are pro-leaderless movement right now. Fair enough. Question: Do you think that a leader should emerge eventually at some point in the future? Do you think a list of demands should eventually be created when we have a clear idea of what the majority wants? If not, what is your long-term vision for the movement?
I think this movement is predicated on a subtle philosophy, created through trial and error on the part of some very profound thinkers and activists; among them Ghandi and M.L.King.
We are attempting to transcend the tactics of political movements of the past, by analyizing where they went wrong and endevouring to avoid past miscalculations. Ghandi, especially, charted the course for this new approach to human transformation.
That approach revolves around the idea that we will win, eventutally, simply because our vision is more in line with truth, sanity, morality, and self-preservation than theirs. Study Ghandi's concept of "truth force." The New Testement is also a good reference point. What is required for reformation is that we first reform ourselves through an unflinching commitment to truth regarding ourselves and the nature of our society. Courage, patience and perserverance; predicated upon a belief that in the end good is simply more powerful then evil, we believe, will lead us toward a spiritual awakening. Nothing less will save humanity from it's increasingly dire predicament..
What we need first is 870 delegates to go to Philadelphia for the National General Assembly starting July 4th. One step at a time folks.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
It doesn't matter if the majority wants a leader, it will never happen. http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/
In practical terms, there already is a leader.
True. It would be extremely difficult to have a system without leaders, and it wouldn't last very long at all. The energy to keep that in place would be tremendous. Everyone would constantly need to check together if someone gained a bit of power over the others.
We don't need a leader, but a martyr or two would be very handy. Care to volunteer?
We don't need a martyr!
No,I don't want you to be leader, everyone is elected and is a leader, We don't need another big headed self important goof thinking he's king..
Very well. Thank you for your opinion. Although I must say, your attitude is appalling. I did not bankrupt this country. I'm out at Zuccotti standing up for your rights and your cause. I volunteered to go the extra mile if need be. Show some respect.
I respect you, and apologize if I offended you, my gist was, we are all elected for this transformational process, Thank you for all the work you are doing,and keep it up, it will take everything,evryone is doing to get it done..What I was saying was we need to dump elections, and all take an active part in creating this new world..General Assemblies[Community, State, National}
Thanks for the clarification, it's all good. Do you think we should ever create a concrete list of demands in the future?
Smash communism! Smash Fascism! Smash racism! Smash Corporate capitalism: all wings of the same bird. Impeach Obama! Fight for democracy! Restore the constitution!