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Forum Post: Do Muslims value life ?

Posted 8 years ago on March 1, 2012, 12:29 p.m. EST by FriendlyObserverB (1871)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Protestors in Syria don't seem to value their own lives. Come to think of it the person who began the Arab spring set himself on fire !

I think things are different here in the western world. We value life.



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[-] 3 points by AugustRushLimbaugh (3) 8 years ago

Do snails fly?

[-] 3 points by DumbDick (4) 8 years ago

Is 1+1=20?

[-] 3 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Probably has less to do with being a Muslim and more to do with being dirt poor in a desert hole that is continuously bombed by the west; and of course when you're not being bombed, you're being brutalized by western installed dictators.

You might make the same generalization in some inner cities... hard thug gangsters who blow the crap out of each other on a daily basis.

... and there there is another way to look at it, do we really value life in the western world? Because we're awfully good at taking it from others in the middle east.

[-] 3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Muslims should not allow terrorists organizations to grow in their midst. Because retaliation strikes will put them in harms way. Blame the terrorists not the retaliation.

[-] 4 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

I have never seen a Muslim treat children as these Christians in Africa.

Reminiscent of the Salem witch trials only more brutal these Christian Pastors torture women and even children who are declared witches.

WARNING: This is graphic and disturbing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbDu0-K9cPk

[-] 1 points by Chugwunka (89) from Willows, CA 8 years ago

You are right. Muslims are definitely better! After all: Bush claimed they are a religion of peace. Death to the Christians!!! Filthy infidel !!

[-] 0 points by FartCannon (0) 8 years ago

I see what you did there.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

And you do not know the Janjaweed ? goggle it

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

So they all kill in the name of their God to rid us of evil. Maybe that is why I am an atheist.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

That's a pretty bizarre statement, don'tcha think?

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

What is a bizarre statement.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

Much of our ancient belief in both good and evil spirits can be traced to Druidism; Christianity incorporated both the good and the evil under the One God; those that were evil fell to a subordinate Lucifer.

Salem was not about good and evil; it was about the presence of evil spirits, decidedly Druid in nature.

Our belief in witches does not date to the Malleus Maleficarum but to Druidism; but the intent of the Maleficarum to declare the disbelief in witches as heresy punishable by death, ultimately prevailed (for a time).

Have you examined the Muslim religion in reference to ancient belief; do they or have they ever held or incorporated such belief in good and evil spirits? Probably not, right?

Have you examined Muslim slavery which persisted in Africa well into the early 1900s? Have you heard of the "Eunuch"? And it wasn't just Africans here either, they enslaved millions of Europeans as well.

Historically, they are equally brutal if not more so.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

Historical they are not more brutal. I am not excusing Muslim brutality, I am saying two things.

  1. Brutality is not historically or currently exclusive to Muslims. Let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition, the Conquistadors, Manifest Destiny, the Crusades.
  2. Most Muslims value life and are peaceful.

Remember the original post by FriendlyObserverB implies that Muslims do not value life. Further comments by FriendlyObserverB implied that Muslims are an unusually brutal people. I am not criticizing Christianity so much as I am defending Muslims.

[-] -3 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

You're wasting your time; they are currently the most brutal religious element in the world with a goal of world domination. And they definitely do not appear to value life as Americans do.

Remember, too, the US is not a Roman Catholic country; we fled the Inquisition (literally); our Christianity is not of a Roman Catholic bent. And empowering the individual in a world of abundance allowed us to grow an economic superpower which served to temper Christianity everywhere.

This argument of "Crusades" is juvenile; all are capable of historical study; and this eleven year effort pales. And it just ain't right to lump our particular brand or flavor of Christianity under that of the ancient Roman Catholic; we are two different peoples (again, quite literally). And we always were.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

"as Americans do?" There are 2 million American Muslims.

The United states has killed over 120,000 Iraqi civilians since 2003.

I never said anything about the US being Roman Catholic however the US is 24% Catholic and 78% Christian. Christians did not flee the Inquisition. The Inquisition targeted Jews and Muslims.

As for what we did when we got here, I guess they did not teach you what Manifest Destiny was in your school.

You lump all Muslims together and then get on my case for lumping Christians together. I was doing that to make a point. Don't you see that I am not saying all Christians are bad? I am not criticizing Christians so much as I am defending Muslims. My daughter has a Muslim girl in her AP Calculus and AP Chemistry classes. They study together and the family seem quite nice to me.

[-] 1 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

Since the first oil wars in IRAQ under BUSH-1, think 1992, some millions of Iraqi's have died,mostly children.

The first thing the US did was destroy all water and sewage treatment plants in Iraq, massive dysentary, wiped out most.

Your the stupid god damn fucking liar on this board, ... and your an OWS moderator, and your game is play the good-repuglican to add color and create the non-sense that the OWS has 99%, .e.g. left&right, ...

The sad fact that joethefarmer is the stupidest MOFU in india.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

Who are you talking to? I am not a Republican nor am I a moderator on this board. Most of the time my posts are defending people or groups from the bigots on this board.

[-] 1 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

I was wiping my ass after a shit this morning and I saw 'joe the farmer' on the toilet paper in my own brown shit. Now that was like reading leaves at a chinese restaurant or what?

Joethefarmer, the geek, who bites chicken heads off 24/7. The defender of the rePUGlican party make believe so that OWS is fair & balanced.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

and atheist ?

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

and atheist what?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

I was asking JoeTheFarmer

if he knew any atheist

hey Joe forgot to read the name at the top

You lump all Muslims together and then get on my case for lumping Christians together. I was doing that to make a point. Don't you see that I am not saying all Christians are bad? I am not criticizing Christians so much as I am defending Muslims. My daughter has a Muslim girl in her AP Calculus and AP Chemistry classes. They study together and the family seem quite nice to me.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

Are you asking if I know any atheists? Well I know myself pretty well.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

The born and raised in America Muslim is possessed of an American world view; they are Christianized Muslims.

The Inquisition targeted all... in reference to Spain, the Muslims of the Iberian peninsula had been every bit as brutal.

Manifest Destiny ...? This is "territorial expansion" in light of population growth.

I don't think your comparison of apples to oranges is appropriate in any way.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

You are wrong about Muslims in America being Christianized. You are wrong about who the inquisition targeted You are wrong about how the Native Americans culture was systematically taken from them in the med-late 1800s. Look up Carlisle Indian Industrial School as an example of how the wild ones were forcibly converted. I don't think you know much about history at all.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

You need to do your history.

Everyone in America, even the atheist, is "Christianized," because they are possessed of values that date directly to the mindset of colonial America. Even sentiment regarding Guantanamo, something most feel very strongly about, dates to the colonial mindset. These were and are Christian values; born of America's particular brand of Christian sentiment.

You're not "wrong" about Native Americans but I doubt very much you understand the dynamic, or the cause, of this conflict. These were two entirely incompatible peoples.


[-] 3 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Fair enough, I'm a pretty firm believer in cause and effect. But it goes the other way as well, you spend 75 years messing around in the middle east doing all kinds of horrible things, and then surprise surprise some of those people are unhappy and want to bomb us.

Its a situation that could have been easily avoided.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Nothing justified 9/11

[-] 3 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Not saying it was justified. Killing thousands of people never is, either here or there.

Just that it could have been avoided, and the aftermath could have been handled a lot better.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

If I was George bush. Immediately after 9/11, I would have publically forgiven the enemy. And than went over there and dropped bombs on them perpetually day and night until they all lined up to be executed at the wall. But I would have forgiven them first. I wouldn't want to fight in anger.

But that's just me.

[-] 4 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

I think you're half right. If he would have publicly forgiven the enemy, admitted that the US had brutalized that area of the world for far too long, things would be a lot better today. Yes it sucks when people you know are killed in an attack, that's exactly how they feel as well, but more bombs are not going to make it stop, they are going to make it worse.

Osama bin Laden already won the war on terror, not because of two buildings, but the reaction to 9/11 has completely destroyed freedom and the economic superiority of the united states. The age of US imperialism is now over, for better or for worse.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Islam an Christianity have yet to fall. Than it will be over. We must abolish all religion.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 8 years ago

Then, not "than", and . not "an".

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Hollywood has been working for decades to smear both religions.

Evil doesn't like values, family, sincerity, charity, and all other good deeds.

You did not mention Judaism "yet to fall". I gather you are in Tel-Aviv.

[-] -2 points by timirninja (263) 8 years ago

yes. if it was George Bush - this is act of terrorism

[-] 2 points by timirninja (263) 8 years ago

once again i would like to dilute this topic with a piece of entertainment http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8gCwSSzFAp4

this not easy to find such a BS in this days...

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

Exactly right!

Chomsky pwnage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcDNCkVmXQM

[-] -1 points by Perspective (-243) 8 years ago

Yup it could have been avoided if Clinton had said "pull the trigger".

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

I doubt it.

But believe it or not there is a segment of the population who were not terribly surprised it happened, and I don't just mean Ron Paul. Its foreign policy, and nobody wanted to listen to the voices of reason.

struggleforfreedom80 is totally right, I remember listening to Chomsky say the same thing in the early 90s, and he made a lot of sense. It's just nobody cared back then.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

There was a book written about that called Blowback. The title is self-explanatory.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

Terrorism is instituted government repression through harsh precession of it's dissenters.

Terrorist governments seeks to control it's people through fear

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Controlled through fear. How does that turn out ?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

violent lethal

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Terrorist's are born out of despair... that in large part is brought on by Western countries that support their brutal dictators. Given a chance to have a better life for themselves and their children, there would be no more terrorists. That is no different than what all people want.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I somewhat agree with this. The unemployment rate in Iraq was at sixty percent. It was jobs they needed. The problem with military is they are not equipped for the aftermath. There is a lot of hardship associated with wars.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Fortunately, more "hardship" than I ever hope to experience.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

Terrorists are born out of maniacal faith in a book or person and rewards when you are dead.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Netenyahu Ariel Sharon Golda Meir Moshe Dyan ... The Whole of Israel!

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

how many bus fulls of school children were targetted by them?
Israel & its leaders have not alwayus acted well. BUT:
The most notable terrorist acts committed by the PLO were:

The 1970 Avivim school bus massacre by the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), killed nine children, three adults and crippled 19.

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, the PLO carried out a number of attacks and plane hijackings mostly directed at Israel, most infamously the Dawson's Field hijackings, which precipitated the Black September in Jordan crisis.

In 1972, the Black September Organization carried out the Munich massacre of Israeli Olympic athletes.

In 1974, members of the PLO/DFLP seized a school in Israel and killed a total of 26 students and adults and wounded over 70 in the Ma'alot massacre.

The 1975, Savoy Hotel hostage situation killing 8 hostages and 3 soldiers, carried out by Fatah.

The 1978, Coastal Road massacre killing 37 Israelis and wounding 76, also carried out by Fatah.


[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 8 years ago

Bensdad, the question is HOW can we ever break this cycle? The question of Isriel's security must untimately rest on diplomacy. If there really is no way to achive peace through diplomacy, than the fate of Isriel's will ultimately be destruction, simply because they are outnumbered in the Middle East, a hundred to one, by Moslems. If Isriel can't possibly overcome this, to me, irrational hatred on the part of the Moslems, then it would seem the only logical step to save the nation of Isriel in the long run would be it's relocation.

Times change, and the ballance of power will someday, whether in 20 years or a thousand years, also inevitably change.

Furthermore, the saftey of the world is in the ballance here.

I think this is something Isriel should seriously consider, for their own long term survival, as a people:)

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

That will never happen.
Hitler tied it in 1940.
Spain tried it in 1492.
Russia tried it.

The Palestinian perople NEVER had a country PALESTINE
On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. : He said:

”The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

They were given a COUNTRY - and refused it

Since partition, Israel has welcomed and taken in millions of Jews from around the world.
The Arabs were given land and the neighbors, in stead of helping create a "Palestine" lock the people in camps an fostered anger and rebellion - and attacked Israel

Israel has been trying to compromise for half a century. And got suicide bombers who hide with civilians. "There will be peace when they love their children more than they hate us" -GM
you can't negotiate with a rabid dog


[-] 2 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

PLO not very much linked to faith. Israel is. Most PLO members do not pray.

PLO was retaliating against Israel. Israel killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians when they invaded Palestine in 1948. Even today, Israel is killing Palestinians, bulldozing their homes, and taking their land.

Christianity and Islam are peaceful religions. Israel's Talmud is not.

Google "Talmud" and "Yusuf Estes" for a comparison between Judaism and Islam.

[-] 1 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 8 years ago

A drop in the bucket compared to Sabra Chatila.


[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago



[-] -1 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 8 years ago

Jesus Christ

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

I am not a christian but I think that you would agree that "christian" terrorism - such as burning Jews in 1492 or the Oklahoma bombing would NOT have been "supported" by jc - but were fostered by a book
jc never killed anyone
m did kill - personally
there is a difference :

[-] 0 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 8 years ago

My point exactly. True faith in the afterlife - like Christ's - should preclude terrorism, not encourage it. The atrocities you site are a reflection of doubt in God's existence, rather than faith.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

NO! burning spanish Jews & the Oklahoma bombing were done by UNGODLY religious fanatics who had NO doubts - thei book told them what to do

[-] 1 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

You mean like the ungodly religious fanatics who committed genocide after genocide in Canaan, because their Torah told them to do so? And the ungodly religious fanatics who clamor to commit genocides all over the Middle East, because they have no doubt their Torah is still telling them to do so?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

The Torah did not tell anyone to commit genocide in Canaan. The Torah TOLD YOU about what the Torah told you. Can you discover this statistic-
In the last 1500 years, how many Jews were killed by Moslems?
In the last 1500 years, how many Moslems were killed by Moslems?
In the last 1500 years, how many Moslems were killed by Jews?
How many people did Muhammed kill?

MUSLIM WARS 624-2005

624 Jihad - Mohammed leads or commands 65 military campaigns in ten years.
624 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Badr against the Meccans. 22 prisoners are beheaded “by the hand of Ali”.
625 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Uhud
626 Mohammed command the “action against Banu Nazair”
627 Mohammed leads and commands the battle of the Trench
627 Mohammed declares that Jews are “are a people without understanding transformed into apes and swine…racing each other in sin and rancor…. Evil indeed are their works.” This is the point, according to modern Islamic extremists, at which a worldwide war between Jews and Moslems began.
627 Mohammed commands an attack against the Jewish Banu Quraiza. After the Banu Quraiza Jews surrendered, all the men were beheaded, the women and children taken as slaves, and the property distributed as booty
629 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Khaibar
629 Mohammed commands a troop of 3,000 to attack Mootah, the first attack of Islam against an Arab-Christian outpost of the Byzantine Empire
630 Mohammed leads the Conquest of Mecca
630 The Battle of Hunayn—the last battle Mohammed led personally. 631 Expedition to Tabuk
632 Mohammed, on his deathbed, orders Usama to head north and attack the Syria
633-640 Muslim Arabs conquered Syria & Iraq 637 Battle of Al-Qadisiyyah—Arabs defeat Sasanian Persians and sack their capital Ctesiphon, the home base of Nestorian Christianity—conquest of most of Iraq 637 Conquest of Christian and Jewish Jerusalem 642 The battle of Navahand—Islam completes its conquest of Persia/Iran and Iraq 639-642 The Arab conquest of Egypt, only some 20 years after the rise of Islam 642-705 The conquest of North Africa—the Maghreb (Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria)
705 The Jewish Western Sudanese Queen Dahia-Al Kahina, dies after fighting against the Arab incursion in North Africa, driving the Arab army northward into Tripolitania.
711-713 Conquest of Spain and Occupation of southwestern France
718 Moslem invasion of Aquitaine and Provence.
750 Islam penetrates southeast Asia through Aceh
751 Battle of Talas—Islam vs China
979-1030 Mahmud of Ghazna—an Afghan Moslem-- attacks India repeatedly, destroys temples, forces conversions
1050 Islamic conquests in Nigeria.
1164 Saladin mounts three campaigns against the Crusaders.
1174 Saladin conquers Damascus
1330 Oz Beg (Uzbek), Khan of the Golden Horde, converts to Islam, spreading Islam through most of central and northern Asia
1389 Moslem Turks defeat the Hungarians at Kosovo
1396 Moslem Turks take Nikopol, a key trade and mining center in the Ukraine
1453 Moslem conquest of Constantinople by Sultan Muhammad.
1463 Ottoman Turks conquer Bosnia.
1526 Pest, in Hungary, falls to the Turks
1530 onward the Somali Imam Ahmed Ibraham al-Ghazi pulls off many a victory in trying to take Christian Abyssinia. The Abyssinians call on the Portuegese for help.
1530-1780 In the opinion of Dr. Mohsin Farooqi, “Europe [was] under Muslim Rule.” More than a million Europeans are taken as slaves
1538 “In 1538, the Turkish Navy defeated the combined naval force of Spain, Venice (Italy) and Pope, a number of times. This made them master of Mediterranean Sea.”
1539 Sher Khan, an Afghan, defeats the Moghul Emperor Humayan
1541 Buda in Hungary is conquered by the Turks
1571 Battle of Lepanto--one of the biggest naval battles in history. 200 war galleys from a combined Spanish, Venetian, Italian, and papal navy, ships carrying 30,000 fighters, defeat the Islamic fleet of the Ottomans
1575-1769 Redemptionist priests purchase the freedom of 15,500 Christian slaves taken in raids on European lands by the Navy of the Islamic Jihad.
1622-1644 7,000 English abducted from British beaches and from ships by the Islamic Navy of Jihad.
1631 Islamic Navy of Jihad raids Baltimore in Ireland,
1640 Islamic Navy of Jihad mounts attacks on Cornwall and enslaves 3,000 inhabitants in a year.
1628-1634 The Islamic Navy in the Mediterranean takes 80 French ships and enslaves 1,331 European men and women.
1677 the Wolof tribes in Senegal, Gambia, Guinea Bissau and Northern Guinea on the Atlantic coast of Africa are conquered and forced to accept Islam.
1683 Battle of Vienna--Ottoman Empire ceases to be Europe's only superpower--but becomes a major power whose influence can make or break alliances
1690 The Turks drive the Austrians out of Bulgaria and Transylvania and retake Belgrade and Nis (in Montenegro)
1738 Nadir Shah invades Afghanistan and takes its capital, Kandahar. Then he invades India, attacks Delhi, and carries off unbelievable amounts of loot, including the Peacock Throne and the 108 carat Koh-i-Noor diamond
1758 Ahmad Shah loots Delhi
1764: Conversion to Islam of Areadi Gaya, ruler of Futa Toro--a Fulani area in Senegal.
1828 The Brits are driven out of Mombasa, in 1828 and don't bother to return.
1840 The Sultan of Zanzibar takes control of Mombassa.
1865 David Livingstone sees the slaughter of 400 villagers by slave traders and writes a vivid letter about it that creates outrage in Britain and inspires the British to stop the slave-raiding and slave-trading controlled from Moslem Zanzibar.,
1874-1876 The Sultan of Somalia, Sultan Dhahar, attacks Christian Abyssinia and expels the Christians of Galgala, destroying their churches,
1968 Founding of The Moro National Liberation Front in the Philippines and the beginning of a battle for Moslem “autonomy” that would leave 50,000 dead, and would be backed by Libya and Iran.
1976 Pakistan’s Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces his plan to build an ‘Islamic Bomb’, “a bomb for defense of all Islamic Countries.”
1990 In July, the Jama'at al Muslimeen under the control of Imam Yasin Abu Bakr attempts a violent coup in Trinidad and Tobago to establish a Moslem extremist state. Jama'at al Muslimeen is still in business today.
1996-2005 Westerners first read the word “madrassa” when this form of extremist, Saudi-backed religious school educates and graduates the leaders of Afghanistan’s Taleban. Later it turns out that the Saudis have established these “suicide bomber factories” in Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Russia, the Balkans, Western Europe, and North America., It also turns out that the Jamia Binoria society of madrassas in Karachi, Pakistan, is attracting foreign students from 30 countries, including the US, and educating them in Saudi-style Wahabi extremism.
1999 The Philippine Moro National Liberation Front buys 10,000 M16 automatic rifles and grenades from North Korean dealer Lim Kyu-do. It also puts a down payment on North Korean mini-submarines.
1999 September 4, “a car bomb detonated outside an apartment building housing Russian soldiers in the city of Buinaksk, in the province of Dagestan. 64 people were killed and dozens of others were wounded. Russia blamed Chechen separatists, who would days later invade the province from neighboring Chech nya.”
1999 September 8, “300 kg to 400 kg of explosives detonated on the ground floor of an apartment building in southeast Moscow. The nine-story building was destroyed, killing 94 people inside and wounded 150 others.
1999 September 16 truck bomb “outside a nine-story apartment complex in the southern Russian city of Volgodonsk, killing 17 people.”
2000 Islamic militants mount an intense bombing campaign in South Africa
2001 May 5. Muslim militants converge on the Moluccas, the spice islands of Indonesia, to defend Moslems against “a Christian conspiracy”. Thousands are killed.
2001 March 22 Anti-slavery groups report that there are 27 million modern slaves “From Khartoum to Calcutta, from Brazil to Bangladesh”. Most seem to be in Islamic countries.
2003 June 5 Two female suicide bombers detonate themselves at a rock concert near Moscow killing 14.
2003 October 23. Roughly 1,000 audience members are taken hostage when mahahedin chanting, “We love death more than you love life” take over an entire Moscow theater—the Dubrovka. 130 die.
2003 Police in the Indian hill resort of Kud arrest a young driver and his girlfriend—couriers carrying $100,000 in American donations to finance a never-ending Jihad in Kashmir.
2004-2005 Arab Janjaweed tribesmen prey on the black Islamic population of their own country—the Shariah-run nation of Sudan. “Janjaweed, Arab militias armed by the government, have carried out ethnic cleansing, systematic rape” and enslavement.,
2004 In Amsterdam, a 26-year-old Dutch Moroccan shoots filmmaker Theo Van Gogh while Van Gogh is bicycling. “I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down.”
2004 March 11 thirteen bombs on commuter trains triggered to go off simultaneously at height of Madrid rush hour. Responsibility is claimed by al Qaeda in Europe.
2004 January 4 30 armed mujahedin storm military armory and steal 380 M-16s in Narathiwat, Southern Thailand. Meanwhile 18 schools are set afire.
2004 April 28. 112 killed when machete armed teenage mujahedin wearing red headbands and black t-shirts with Islamic slogans attack a dozen police posts in 3 provinces in Southern Thailand.
2004-2005 The jihad in Southern Thailand kills 860 in 18 months. Vendors sell CDs of beheadings with titles like “Jihad in Chechnya 2000”.
2005 July 7, London 4 bombings—3 in subways & 1 on a double-decker bus kill 54 people.
2005 July 14 60 muhahedin attack the regional capital of Yala in Thailand, killing 2, injuring 22, plunging city into darkness A few days earlier a school headmistress is murdered & 2 Buddhist women are beheaded.

[-] 2 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Freedom is expensive. Muslims need to wage fights against oppressors like Russia, Israel, and the like.

Israel invaded Palestine in 1948 and killed thousands of the native people. Israel used ethnic cleansing to remove the Palestinian Muslims and Christians from their beloved land. Isn't this evil?

Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviet Union in the 70's. The Muslims had to do something to liberate their land. Russia is continuing its oppression of Muslims in Chechen. The Serbs massacred thousands of Muslims in Herzegovina. The oppressors never stop.

US invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq because Israel ordered it to do so. Muslims are taught to be righteous and merciful but not to surrender to evil.

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

You got a lot of time on your hands huh?
Have you ever thought about becoming a teacher and helping those people learn to love instead of hate?

Then, perhaps you'll be able to sleep at night, instead of having to count bodies!!

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

I didnt count anything - this is just history - do you like it?

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

Well. actually it is a bit one sided since all nationalities and nations of people committed murders and atrocities against others, including their own. It just seems to me that warmongers always need an excuse to murder.... Wouldn't it be easier just to teach the truth?

After all, when you're dead, you're dead...mission accomplished? .Who knows..... men are just prone to violence...No real reason except I guess it's just that animal instinct!!

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

You can find out what Islam interprets as Jihad and the Holy War:


[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

A history of violence.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

daunting not being able to change history

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

is the Torah ever updated ?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

no- never

[-] 1 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy).

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

pardon me

[-] 1 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 8 years ago

Scripture is often twisted and distorted as a pretext to serve some unholy agenda... Like the self justification for the existence of Israel and their Christian " dispensationalist " enablers.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 8 years ago

Then we should probably bomb New York. Timothy McVeigh was born there; as well as Michigan; Terry Nichols was born there.

They didn't seem to value life any more than some Muslims. It must not be religion that causes people to carelessly disregard life, but a sociopathic streak, which seems to be alive and well in most of our politicians, since they bomb countries willy-nilly for the flimsiest of reasons.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Are there really any innocent Muslims or are they all associates?

There was a story that came out of Iraq. A father had to execute his son because his son told American soldiers of some terrorists hiding out in his village. When the Americans came in many people were killed. So the community blamed the son for bringing in the death. Well the Taliban have brought in the death to Afghanistan. So by Muslim rules the Taliban should be executed.

[-] 0 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 8 years ago

What about the Christians that bomb and kill?

By modern, twisted Christian rules, they should be executed, but that would do away with the Congress and President.

We killed Timothy McVeigh. The reason: he brought death to Americans.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

What about the soldiers in Iraq who killed the family of one young woman, and then took turns raping her, and standing guard outside her home? Should our society be judged by those criminals?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

A Brutal heart breaking story.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes it was very sad.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

After all, Fair is Fair.


[-] 0 points by doitagain (234) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/v/3DDZEdkoaY4?version=3&f=videos&app=youtube_gdata but of course you cant bomb building using soap. Use you mind retard before anger on me. LOL just fucking with you

[-] -1 points by skylar (-441) 8 years ago

you're confused,............islam is the terrorist organization. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[-] -1 points by Chugwunka (89) from Willows, CA 8 years ago

The West installed Assad? I had no idea. And what do blacks killing other blacks (or Mexicans ) have to do with it?

[-] 4 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Oh my mistake, I didn't realize this was exclusively about Syria. From the topic I thought it was a generalization about Muslims... which it kind of is.

Seriously? And how is blacks killing other blacks any different than Muslims killing other Muslims? (You asked about western respect for life, I'm pretty sure inner city people live in the western world... )

In any event, white and black people alike are still busy dropping bombs on middle eastern people, without the tiniest thought about how badly it sucks to have someone bomb your family...

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

This is about Muslims.

[-] 0 points by Chugwunka (89) from Willows, CA 8 years ago

Yes, there is a difference. With the possible exception of Afghanistan Muslims don't kill each other over drugs/territory/ access to white pussy.

[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Access to white pussy huh? No I would imagine that most Muslims don't kill each other over white pussy, but that's beside the point.

Ok so why don't we just pretend that we're all good people over here, and respect life very much. Then criticize Syrians for being in the middle of a civil war... I mean its been a while since we had one of those anyway.

[-] 0 points by Chugwunka (89) from Willows, CA 8 years ago

You don't even understand what I posted.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Clearly beyond my comprehension...

[-] 0 points by timirninja (263) 8 years ago

mexicans are not only who have smoked color skin. I never heard about any mexicans terrorists in Syria. I never even see mad and violent mexicans

[-] 2 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

If you're asking do Muslims value life in general & human life in particular ... yes, they do, very highly ("whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind", Qur'an 5:32).

On the other hand, if you're asking do Muslims value the life of an ignorant, supremacist, xenophobic, Muslim-hating, corruption-spreader like yourself ... not so much.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

corruption in the earth ?

[-] 2 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

In other verses of the Qur'an, "corruption" is associated with warmongering; spreading hatred & division among people; fraud, usury & cheating; prodigality, greed & selfishness; oppressing people; treachery & impiety; sexual perversion & debauchery; & promoting or doing evil.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Did you know Muhammad was deceived by Satan's angel Gabriel. The whole Quran is a part of Satan's plan to conquer the world. Of course it will fail. Jesus Christ was Satan himself. The new testament is grafted into the old to appear a continuation.

Have a nice day.

[-] 1 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

Way to prove that you're an ignorant, supremacist, xenophobic, Muslim- (& Christian-) hating, corruption-spreader, Dude! LOL

You Zionists are Easy - you delegitimize yourselves! ROFL

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

The reason Satan wants you to believe the Quran , is so that you do not focus on the truth. It's a distraction of the mind.

[-] 2 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

God loves just people. You will be just in God's eyes if you read the Quran - without prejudice - and then judge it thereafter according to human values: such as appreciation to God for all the gifts of life He has given you; justice; peace; generosity; kindness; and other good deeds.

The Quran is claimed to be God's revelation. If this claim is false in your view, then you must be sure your view was right. Otherwise you risk being on the wrong side of the truth and thus an enemy of God.

Just labeling Islam and the Quran as Satanic or evil with little research and because you were born as an enemy of Islam will not be a good excuse in front of God on the Day of Judgment.

If you are a descendant of God's Chosen-forefathers (Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph) you will try to be just. Right?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

No. The Quran was inspired by Satan to bring unhappiness to the world and prevent love and joy. Do not be deceived.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Did you read a page of the Quran?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I see all the unhappiness it has brought to those who have.

Listen, without a doubt, Jesus was Satan. The Angel Gabriel visited the virgin Mary and the same angel visited muhammed. The Angel Gabriel was Satans Angel.

I do not have to read the Quran to know who inspired it.

Don't be fooled by what is said in the quran, or by Jesus.

Satan was the master of deception and he will speak the truth on occasion to convince/deceive you. All liars do.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Satan cannot write anything good. Satan is pure evil.

You are accusing God of being unfair that He had forsaken his creation by not sending guidance to them.


God is just, generous, and merciful. You can't see this truth because you let Satan control your thoughts and he makes you think lowly of Glorious God.

My advice to you is:

Ask God to forgive and show you the way to the Truth.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Satan will claim to be the light of the world. Satan was Jesus.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Yours is a hopeless case. Loser!

[-] 0 points by JesusRepublican (110) 8 years ago

Democrats are republicans and vice versa. It's all a game.

[-] 2 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

You mean your Zionist "truth"?:

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." (Menachem Begin, Israeli PM 1977-83).

Cos who wouldn't want to be enslaved & ruled by Zionists? Just ask the Palestinians (&, increasingly, Americans) how great that is!

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

animals are superior to all humans

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Animals are superior to evil humans. Not all humans are evil, though.

Your statement makes one wonder: do you value yourself?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Animals are one with god, animals are guided by the spirit of god. Humans have lost that guidance. Humans are lost.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago
[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

You really have a problem!

Guidance is there. You have to look for it. You have brains, don't you? I know you do. Use it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

No human being is guided by the spirit of god , not one.

The fall from the garden of eden was the death of spiritual guidance. The death of our soul.

We are all in hell right now..

[-] 1 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

Where is heaven and where is hell? Is it a physical place, a country, a planet, a star, a cloud, a body of water, a place in spirit, soul...please, please....where in the hell...is heaven? And where in heaven's name....is hell?? I don't believe a merciful God would create such a place...Why torture us when after all, we could all just remain there and not bother being born!! "We are creators and make our own heaven and hell" It is time to deal with Reality on this planet and let go of that tired ass bullshyt manmade way of non-thinking...

Out with war.....In with Peace!!! What is everyone afraid of?

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Did you ever think how the Universe was born out of something less than a proton's size? This is a universally agreed on theory of the Cosmos. A theory devised by mostly secular scientists.

Just because you don't see the Containing World doesn't make it unreal.

You cannot comprehend who God is nor His promises of Heaven and Hell using your brain. The brain is not fit for the task. Your heart/soul is where your faith is.

Revive your heart by looking at the miracles of Creation. Then, you will see God and His promises.

You will be able to revive your heart if you have appreciation to God for all the gifts of life He has given to you. You have eyes to see with, ears to hear with, tongue to enjoy tasty foods with, etc.

You cannot count the bounties God has bestowed on you. Try to be thankful.

Some people deserve the "torture" of Hellfire. For example, Syria's Security Forces who torture and kill innocent children. Don't you think so?

[-] 0 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

It is not my call as to who deserves torture and who does not. Who is supposed to be punished and who should not. I am not the almighty and I am not in control of the Universe.
You cannot define to me anything or anymore than what your teeny tiny finite mind can comprehend (which ain't much and usually amount to theories that change with the weather) and therefore you cannot draw a line around my comprehension at all. So quit preaching and get to the real point of the matter... Most people on here sound like radical Bigots!! Religion and labels are man made...... Everything else in life is beyond anyone's comprehension... So mere mortals need to stop acting like they know so damn much about Life, which they sure as hell don't....and learn to give life (particularly their own) the proper respect, awe and love It deserves.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

It all boils down to justice. You do others and yourself justice by giving everyone their rights - including God. God's rights are enormous, then your parents, then those who you owe favor to, then everyone else.

You will live for a few more years (maybe). Will you be able to help yourself after you die and control your destiny? I don't think so.

Satan and YOU are your worst enemies.

[-] 0 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

Who created Satan? Don't you think this religious rant should subside? Are you trying to convince me or yourself? I know where the highest and the lowest of man exists. I am not afraid to tell anyone that truth always prevails over falsehood... Now, with that said...why don't you try to reach another plane of thought? You are wasting your time on me and would be best served if you concentrate on your own inner demons, as each person should.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

Obama didn't apologize for the deaths of children

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

As commander and chief , Obama should have burned another Quran in support of his men.

[-] 2 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 8 years ago

"We value life."

Yeah, especially Vietnamese life and Iraqi life and Afghanistani life, and the lives of the 3,000 murdered in broad daylight in Manhattan on September of 2001 in a crime that has never even been investigated. (Google Jon Gold we might be wrong).

[-] 2 points by Skippy2 (485) 8 years ago

Western world has often made a very big mistake. We ascribe our values, morals, ethics and political reference points to other cultures. This error is compounded by our overwelming need to "get involved" and "support" factions in disputes that go back hundreds of years. I read a book about 4 yrs ago, forgot title, that had a good quote from an Iraqi young man. He said," Me against my brother, my brother and I against our cousin, my brother cousin and I against the world." This attitude of loyalty to self,family,clan and tribe is not understood by westerners. The honor of self, family, clan and tribe is more important than any rule, law or ethic from the outside.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

They will come around to our way of thinking. It's already happening with the protests over there. The people want freedom.

[-] 1 points by liberaltarianinbrooklyn (9) 8 years ago

Early America was pretty terrible and theocratic (arguably just as bad if not worse than authoritarian theocracies in the Middle East) . The Puritans burned Quakers in Massachusetts. Unfortunately democracy takes time and the authoritarian impulse is found in people from all cultures. The egalitarian principles and laws which arose (pretty recently) in Western culture did so only in response to abuses in Western culture.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

A lot has improved since separation from church and state , and I believe a lot would improve in the middleeast if they did the same .. seperate islamic rule from government policy..

[-] 1 points by liberaltarianinbrooklyn (9) 8 years ago

There are young, liberal secularists in the Middle East who are trying to do that. It's not going to happen overnight. When John Quincy Adams spoke out about slavery in Congress they passed a special rule to shut him up. People who advocate for freedom are always swimming against the tide. It will take time ( hopefully less time than it did in America).

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I haven't heard about any opposition to the American separation from church and state ... was there any ?

[-] 1 points by liberaltarianinbrooklyn (9) 8 years ago

You haven't heard of Rick Santorum? Kidding aside many conservatives make the argument that freedom of religion doesn't equal freedom from religion. If you read the letters of Jefferson ( who used the phrase wall of separation) and Adams it is quite clear they intended a secular government. That doesn't stop people from attempting to argue they didn't.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 8 years ago

‘US thinks it can use Al-Qaeda temporarily in Syria’

Get short URL email story to a friend print version

Published: 18 February, 2012, 06:39

Edited: 20 February, 2012, 02:03

An armed Free Syrian Army rebel stands inside a house in the north Syrian city of Binnish on February 15, 2012 (AFP Photo / Bulent Kilic)

(36.4Mb)embed video TRENDS: Syria unrest TAGS: Military, Politics, Terrorism, USA, Bill Dod, Syria The US and Al-Qaeda are using each other to topple President Assad, believes Camille Otrakji, editor of online magazine Syria Comment.

US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has said Al-Qaeda is working alongside Syria’s armed opposition, while Washington considers extending support to the rebels.

Otrakji told RT that both sides think they are using the other, hoping to control them later.

“For example, the Islamists and Al-Qaeda think, 'We can have an alliance with the Americans or with any secular opposition forces, but later we will be in power,' and the Americans think they can use Al-Qaeda temporarily, if they have to, to get rid of the Syrian regime, and they will somehow manage to get rid of them. So, unfortunately they are apparently working together.”

The journalist added that it is important to understand how decision-making takes place in Washington D.C.

“Some people really do not care about what will happen in Syria after. For example, there are factions that just want to punish the Syrian regime – I’ve heard this from someone in Washington – for their help in 1982, when Hezbollah attacked US troops in Lebanon.” And others, Otrakji said, are optimistic, thinking that there will be elections and that Syria is secular enough that Al-Qaeda factions or other Islamists will not win.

“So, they just want to be hopeful for now, all they want to focus on now is to get rid of the regime – then, they think, they will manage somehow.”

And journalist and peace activist Don Debar said the US have already become some allies with Al-Qaeda in Libya.

“First of all, the US is bedfellows with Al-Qaeda in Libya already. Secondly, if you look at the history of al-Qaeda, actually they are a successive group to the allies the US had in Afghanistan when it was fighting the Soviet Union in the late 1970s and early 1980s.” Debar also remembered a recent comment by Al-Qaeda that they were backing the Syrian rebels, which he said is “the same group the US is not only backing, but has been arming and training.” “So it’s not whether it will happen or not – it’s really been happening,” the activist concluded.

Watch RT's interview with Don Debar

embed video

Political activist Amal Wahdan told RT that the US doesn't mind Al-Qaeda's harsh tactics in Syria, including the violent explosions that kill civilians, as long as they create chaos in the country and lead to the toppling of the Assad government.

Of the US, Wahdan says that “on the record they try to avoid any linkage between themselves and Al-Qaeda.”“I think they are … sending militias into Syria from surrounding countries.”

'Intervention in Syria would cause Libya-style disaster’ Jason Ditz, editor of Antiwar.com, believes that a number of countries, such as the US and members of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), are merely looking for an excuse to intervene in Syria. However, intervention may have the unintended result of bringing Islamic fundamentalists the likes of Al-Qaeda to power in Syria.

“We don’t really know who’s going to come out on top in this sort of fight for the control of the opposition, but it seems pretty clear that the pro-democracy forces in Syria, the original protesters, probably will not be a major part of the picture in a future government if Assad does fall,” Ditz explained to RT.

He compared the situation to that of Libya.

“Much as we saw in Libya, foreign intervention is not a cure-all. If anything, it complicates matters and creates new power bases where there were none before.”

Ditz noted that the National Transitional Council and some of NATO-backed militias ended up going on extremely bloody rampages following the collapse of the Gaddafi regime.

The American political leadership seeks any opportunity to start an intervention in Syria, Ditz said, despite a lack of public support for the initiative and the numerous negative consequences it may bring.

“I think both the Obama administration and Republicans in Congress have a strong interest in starting a war no matter how opposed it would be by the public.”

He remarked that the US and its allies would continue armed intervention no matter what reforms the Assad regime adapts. The Syrian opposition is also not very keen on finding a peaceful resolution to the crisis, according to Ditz.

“Certainly they don’t want to see this resolved, because a resolution means they’re no longer necessary.”


[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 8 years ago

lol - you are truly an imbecile.

America values life so much, there is no time in my entire life (40 some years), that the USA has not been bombing people over seas, value life,. my ass.

Self immolation is quite a statement to make, It shows more commitment to change than anything I can think of.


[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 8 years ago

Some of 'us' westerners do understand the history and effectiveness of self-immolation, as a self-sacrificial protest so that others may benefit from the raised collective consciousness and actions that come after.

East/West generalizations are about as broad as one can make, i.e. rather useless.

Living as a slave to a corporate-bankster-casino-gulag shows mental instability, IMHO.


[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 8 years ago

Yes, a man feed up with a system the requires corrupt payments just to have a chance to earn a living, decides to go to a public square and pour gas over himself, tells his tale, and lights a match. This is also happening now in Tibet where monks are protesting China's occupation, and it happened during the Vietnam war, and in many other situations as well.

What part do you not understand exactly? 'Self sacrifice for the common good' is just to tough of a concept ?

"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all." - Mario Savio, Sproul Hall Steps, December 2, 1964


[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 8 years ago

What, paying thugs with guns for the privilege of existing? I suppose your mental retardation is vastly more advanced than anyone anticipated. I see you are beyond human aid. Good luck with the Nephandi, they can set you free.

[-] 1 points by Coldinflorida (50) 8 years ago

I think it should be against the law to make your wife were a viel or threaten your children in anyway (no spankings) Also making women eat in a separate room, separating sexes in education and life by any group should be banned christian muslim or whatever.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Life is short. It has value only if one lives in dignity and security. Both of these are absent in Syria and many Muslim countries. The West helped install tyranical governments to oppress the people there. It is claimed by many Syrians that Haviz Assad - the father of the current tyrant Bashar - was installed by the French over 45 years ago.

The Syrian people are fed-up with the regime and are ready to die in order to remove it. A good soldier is willing to die to protect his country and his values.

Those who value life more than dignity are similar to animals.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

We hear about the protest and the daily fighting in Syria, but never about what really it's all about. It's almost if the media wants to keep it escalating simply by withholding what the he'll is really happening. If that makes any sense? A lot of this stuff can be diffused with simple truth out in the open. But I don't know what it is.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 8 years ago

Just cut this divissive crap. Just cut it. Humanity will face our ever mounting threats to survival together, or perish. Get that through your thick head!

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I like to deal with a problem head on when ever I am able. And this is a serious problem we have. Sometimes talking helps.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 8 years ago

The problem isn't just a Moslem problem, is it? It is not them invading our country and telling us how to live. People have the unerring instinct of the pot to call the kettle black. This is one of the greatest problems to threaten our survival as a species. We simply evade all aspects of a question that don't reflect well upon ourselves.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 8 years ago

My kids (12-14) told me that they thought it was a good idea for the monks in tibet to set themselves on fire and they said if the internet was censored they should do the same. Needless to say.. they heard an earful from me. Perhaps it has something to do with stages, growth, understanding.. I have no idea.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Sometimes the young understand an extreme display of protest better than an adult.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 8 years ago

Extreme protest? No. Extreme mental anguish, perhaps. The desperate acts of tortured souls inspires you? Over one million people commit suicide each year in the world. Don't you think each of them had a 'cause' and was staging their very own extreme protest? These acts should be prevented not encouraged or celebrated.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

I do not disagree. Suicide is not a good thing. Nor did I say it should be celebrated. I just said that it is understandable why some dis-pare that much. And that sometimes children can see that very clearly.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 8 years ago

Well, ok then. I do not like the term Extreme Protest. Makes it sound fun.. like Hey lets go Extreme Mountain Biking and after that we can have an Extreme Protest, how cool. And AND.. I hate the thought of monks setting themselves on fire. Especially in Tibet. It makes me want to.. panic. I hate it and I want it to stop RIGHT now. So, anyway though, thanks.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

I know how you feel. Growing up I never associated extreme with fun. Sorry.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 8 years ago

they dont, if rest of their family were gone under no fly zone time

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 8 years ago

what about hopeless immigrants. what if you settle to pay pension to their family after the tragic accident in the square? This is not new and not my idea. i believe terrorist organisation use this tactic

[-] 1 points by phila9012 (128) from Philadelphia, PA 8 years ago

ya we have it great here appriciate it, that is sort of racist and I dont think big generalizations about religion helps anything, things like this is why the Muslims hate us because people like you are ignorent


[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

I agree to a large extent with what "alexrai" said here, but I also wnat to add: If individuals sacrafice their lives they still value life: hoping that their actions will make life better for their fellow citizens

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

That's the principle behind martyrdom I guess.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

Some martyrdom's. Those where you take bystanders along with you are not altruistic. Those are poor misguided souls misused and manipulated by fanatics.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes I know.....but there is nothing good about cluster bombs with the burning radiation in them that indiscriminately kill so many innocents. They do not have the big guns and bombs. They are fighting the only way they can, as we would do if we were them. I am thinking about this, not as an American, but as a human being. I have broken bread, shared good times with, and worked alongside of people from all over the world, hence I have learned to value all life.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 8 years ago

I value life as well. That is why a fanatic that abuses a despondent person to blow themselves up taking innocent women children and other men - should be beaten severely in public. This is not how you make peace, this is how you insure a never ending war. Killing innocents.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

No, you make peace when you get the hell out of their country, the same way we did in Vietnam. Also like there, it will be with our tail between our legs. To me and others, all that has been going on and continues to go on..... is our last gasp effort to hold on to, and expand Empire. We have showed friend and foe alike that despite our military prowess we are unable to control a recalcitrant population. Hopefully on a domestic level...here... we can do that too, so that our priorities match our supposed morals. As Ron Paul pointed out, this is bankrupting us. All this money wasted...while we could have been building a 21st century economy. We are going the way of the Roman Empire.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Where does it begin? Would equality and fairness end all war?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 8 years ago

equality, fairness and democracy would certainly reduse the amounts of wars and violent conflicts with quite a noticable amount :)

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

That's the way I see it.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Once again.... It begins with giving people a chance to have a better life for themselves..and their children. That's all...and it is no different from what people want everywhere.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Yes giving people a chance. But when I look at Afghanistan and see how they have oppressed their own people through their religion Islam. And brutalities towards their women and not allowing girls in school. I think most on the ground American soldiers over there want to see change for the oppression. And it is certainly not caused by foreign policy. That's hogwash. They are a far behind thinking race of religion controlled people.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes Afghanistan is..tribal..primitive even by Arab/Muslim standards, but is it our job to go around the world trying to bring them up to Western standards? Why should we have such an ethnocentric attitude. Are we really doing anything to quell international terrorism? I don't think so, rather we are doing more to increase it. Ever since oil was discovered in the middle east, none of those countries have been able to develop in a normal way without interference from the West, and now we use that as further excuse to be there still, when we know it is really about oil in most of those countries.

I understand that we had to do something after 9/11, but why are we still there? I don't adhere to any conspiracy theories, but I do believe that 9/11 was used as a launching pad, which has hurt not only them, but us as well in terms of freedom. I remember reading about a proposed pipeline going through there to central Asia a while back. Usually anytime we get involved in another country, it is to plunder them in some way, but it is always under a noble guise.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

If I lived in Afghanistan , I would be thankful to the Americans for trying to improve human rights in the nation. And to remove the oppression. I would be sorry to see the Americans leave.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Then you would know of Afghanistan's long history of resisting foreign interference/invasion. It is not known as the Graveyard Of Empires for no reason, and as twisted as we may view their society, why are we there wasting lives, and resources to do whatever it is we are trying to do. All this while domestic programs in this country are being slashed, and our infrastructure is falling apart. Does anyone know at this point what we are trying to do there, and who thinks we will be successful? I don't. It all screams 'military industrial complex' to me.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

War torn it may be, but talk to a soldier that's been there and you will understand the horrible lives they live in such oppression.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes...I believe that they do live bad lives, but has anyone been successful in controlling and occupying that country, and what was the reason the occupiers were there? They just wasted their resources in Afghanistan. The British and the Soviets weren't there to help bring them up to Western standards. I just think we should learn from the lessons of history, that's all.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

It just seems so wrong to live such good lives here and not try to help the oppressed elsewhere.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

isn't that what general westmoreland said as he was killing all those vietnamese women and children??

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Mankind has a horrible history. If we justify brutality because" someone else did it", When will we change?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

agreed but i was responding to this nonsense - "I think things are different here in the western world. We value life" - if we value life it is a weird way to show it - the western world has a lot to answer for the last 500 yrs - murdering savages seems to me. can you count all the people the united states has slaughtered since ww2 - i doubt you can count that high - we value life - pretty sick comment

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I think the mentality has changed over time. There was a time when slavery was accepted.

We have been living quite peacefully in the west for many generations. And most of us see the crimes against humanity around the globe as deplorable.

Peace is in our hearts.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

thinking is the wrong word for what you are doing - how old are you - did you not learn anything in school - korea, vietnam, central america, indonesia , east timor, haiti - should i go on - peace in in our hearts - you are a fool. how many countries we bombing right now

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Yes , peace is in our hearts.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

well we may have peace in our hearts but we sure do have violence in our deeds now don't we.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Violence tends to breed more violence. Satan is laughing.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

no shit and who is the great satan and who is full of shit

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

For the most part, we don't occupy the countries like in the Colonial days, instead we control them by providing their brutal dictators with all the support they need to keep their people in line..or suppressed. We also use the IMF and the World Bank to keep them in economic servitude. If none of that works we just use a whole bunch of bombs when necessary. Of course, we always give the campaign a noble sounding name like say Operation Freedom or something.. Usually the more noble the name....the more bombs involved, and hence the more "collateral damage", which is a euphemistic phrase for women and children being blown to bitz.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

The Muslim nations have proven themselves to be a brutally savage people that do not have the ability to develop there own law of human rights. But perhaps that is changing with the protests we recently see over there. The people are standing up to the oppression. It's a brutal reality of conquering evil. And perhaps this uprising is brought about by the freedoms and human rights they see in the west.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

How can they "develop" anything while being under the thumb of the dictators they we have installed and supported since the late1800s when they discovered oil there. The West then went in and carved states out with different ethnic people in them so that they were less likely to unite against their oppressor. What should have been a Godsend for them (oil) has been an unbelivabe heartache instead. Now we judge them for not being up to our standards. I find that hypocritical. There was a time when our European ancestors lived in mud huts...... while they had very advanced civilizations. As long as we are able to classify them as savages...we then feel justified in carrying on with our subjugation and worse.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Why did all the so called dictators we installed turn against us ?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

they all didn't.

some did

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Mubarac and the Shah didn't turn against us. Their people turned against them. Sadam Hussein, as I remember wanted to switch over to the Euro, which we didn't like, but I know there is a lot more to it than that. Didn't the French have the major influence in Iraq too? Anyway there is no doubt in my mind that had we been successful in Iraq, we would have already had been in Iran, and it would have had little do with anything else except us trying to hold onto Empire well into the 21st Century.

These people want to be left alone. They do not want to be occupied, or have brutal dictators installed by us. They are no different than us in that regard. I realize that the world's economy relies on oil, but unlike any other time in history, due to social and other forms of media the inhabitants in these lands know what they are misssing out on. There is no putting this back in the bottle. This is why we have to develop alternative forms of energy at a much faster rate, and become energy independent.

We have had a good conversation on this, and I feel that I have said all that I have set out to. We will not change each other's minds. That's OK. Thank You for the civil discourse.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

This is a sensitive topic. I thankyou for your civility and openers Odin.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

sensitive topic my ass - you are an insenstivie lout except for your own kind - sensitive - that is a sick joke

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

You are welcome.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

We value life of others only if we can subjugate them. Look at all the people that have killed in the name of Christianity.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

Protesters in Syria are risking their lives to end the rule of an oppressive dictator. I would say they value life. If they did not they would just continue to accept their circumstance.

[-] -3 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

The question is really about Muslims in general. Do they value life? With all the brutalities in their society of stoning and burning. And honor killings. And than to kill over a burning book. Where is the value in life. The western world would never place a human life over a burnt book.

[-] 4 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

You are talking about some tribes in the middle east. Islam is the largest religion in the world and Muslims in the western world do not subscribe to that behavior.

You are forgetting about the brutality of Christianity. The Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition in Europe or the Conquistadors America, or the Salem witch trials in the past?

What about the brutal acts and killings in Africa and India committed by Christians today? The 1994 Rwandan genocide was committed by Christians.

The torture and killing of "witches" in Africa, many of them innocent children, is perhaps the worst killing for Christianity in the world today.

[-] 1 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

Are you being kind in not pointing out that alleged Christians mass slaughtered the native inhabitants of North America, were even so full of themselves as to regard them as sub-human savages well into the 1900's.

Did they do that for Jesus?

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

You did not read my other posts. I did talk about that in this thread. I made about 10 posts here.

[-] 1 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

I'm one of those consolidation type bastards.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

One of the greatest American achievements was to separate church from state. And many other nations should do the same.

[-] 4 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

The question you asked was "Do Muslims value life?" You did not ask about other nations.

Most of these place have a similar structure to the early days of this country where witches were drowned, burned or had rocks piled on them till they suffocated. The early days when native American children were taken from their families to be converted. They early days when people were rounded up in Africa and brought here as property to work as slaves.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Do you agree Muslim nations need to separate their religion from government ?

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

That is a different question. You asked "Do Muslims value life?"

However to answer your question, as an atheist and libertarian I do not believe in state religion. I would be happy if all nations separated their religion from their government. That does not mean I believe we should force our beliefs on other nations. If a group of people chose to combine religion and state that is their choice and it is none of our business.

Costa Rica, Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco have Catholicism as their state religion.

Denmark, Iceland and Norway have the Lutheran church as their state religion.

Tibet has Buddhism as their state religion.

All of this has nothing to do with you initial attempt to portray Muslims as a group of people that do not value life.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Do atheists value life?

How do atheists prove there is no god?

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

You really jump around a lot. When in doubt, change the topic.

Why would atheists not value life? That is a silly question. Why do you feel the need to put people in groups and believe that everyone in that group has the same values. I am sure there are some bad atheists just like there are bad Christians, Muslims, Hindis... Hitler believed in God and promoted "positive Christianity" but that did not mean he valued life.

On your second point, why do atheists have to prove there is no god? You sound like some atheists I know that expect believers to prove there is a God. You cannot prove there is or is not a God. You CAN chose to believe or not believe. In the end, the evidence shows, it does not make you value life any more or less.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

1.) Yes, because they place move value on life, than on death.

2.) There is no proof either way. The question is enigmatic.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

It questions their reasoning.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 years ago

That was a muddy answer.

Why did you bother to ask the question?

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Good Joe, but you forgot Christopher Columbus.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 8 years ago

I believe he is kinda covered under Conquistadors since he was a here under the Spanish flag to conquer the New World..

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

OK, you got me on that.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

All this while the vanguards of Christianity have been preying on our children all over the world for many, many years. And how about all the scandals of the religious right preachers, including not being able to keep their married bics in their pants around their pretty young parishoners, and/or assistants. We also have the highest incarceration rate by far of any country in the world. Is this evidence of how moral we are?

[-] 1 points by toukarin (488) 8 years ago

"I think things are different here in the western world. We value life."

Correction: We value OUR lives. As do all humans in general.

But, there exist circumstances which leave you with no option but to take extreme measures. Sometimes, people are condemned to an existence so intolerable that death or violent resistance is preferable.

To generalize "Muslims" (or any set of people) as not valuing life... is... for lack of a better word... idiotic....

If the idea that there are things that people may value more then their lives fails to compute for you... then all I can say is that you are a sad sad person with nothing that you really believe in.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Well, in the Muslim world they set their wives on fire. But if you burn a Quran they go insane. I guess books are more sacred.

[-] 2 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Not true. It's Hindus who burn wives when they become widowed.

Value of life includes the way-of-life. When you burn a Quran, you are trying to kill their values; thus their lives.

I heard that a Muslim who burns the Bible or Torah would be punished with death. Islam respects both (the original) Judaism and Christianity. Why can't we respect other people's lives and religions?

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Violent religion should not be permited.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Yes: The evil entity so-called Israel. The only violent religion I know is theirs. It teaches hatred, murder, and all kinds of evil towards non-Jews.

They hate to see other people prosper. That is why they constantly start wars and confiscate land.

They will keep doing so until God takes them and throws them in Hell where they belong.

[-] 1 points by PenIsFine (4) 8 years ago

Wow, I thought Hitler was dead.

[-] 2 points by toukarin (488) 8 years ago

Whats your point? That people sometime kill others for trivial reasons? There is no shortage of that in this country either.

Not to mention that the question was about 'their own lives' in your own words.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Burning wives is much more common and accepted in the Muslim world , than burning Quran. If Muslims win this war on terror will they burn the American women ?

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

Not true. It's Hindus who burn wives when they become widowed

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Since when did the war on terror become a war against Muslims?

You can't declare war on an entire religious affiliation, and then complain about the fact that they fight back.

[-] -1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

All the terrorists have one thing in common. They are Muslim. And it is them whom declared war on us. We are fighting back. Not them.

I am concerned at what they would do to us as we have established their lack of human value.

[-] 3 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

9/11 was not a declaration of war, it was a counter attack committed to avenge brutal American foreign policy.

The way to peace is not by blowing up more people, its recognizing your role in the problem, deciding to make better choices in the future, and extending your hand to your enemy.

If you'd like to keep riding down this path, then enjoy more 9/11s and enjoy the police state, because neither are far off.

[-] 6 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I was in NYC that fateful day, and went to lunch with my daughter who was working in Queens at the time. After 9/11, I waited for someone to ask, "Why do these people hate us so much? No one asked that question until one night I heard David Letterman ask that question. Unfortunately, he asked it to a blabberring Dan Rather who appeared to me to be hammered, hence he made no sense.

Finally I asked that question to a well-informed friend. He said they hate us because we have air-fields near their most holiest of places...Mecca and Medina...they hate us because we prop up brutal dictators in their countries..and they hate us because of our carte blanche support of Israel. His answer was right on and it is what i was waiting for. Gee..if I were them..I don't think that I would be happy about any of those things either. Would you be?

[-] 1 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 8 years ago

You are right. I was home in Queens when it happened. My first impulse was to wonder which of the victims has done this? Vietnamese? Arab? Serb?


[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

I was on the East River at the Con Ed Ravenswood plant, and I had just finished telling a friend what a gorgeous day it was.... and then we turned around to see Tower 2 smoking. We saw the second tower get hit and both of them fall eventually. I did suspect that it was blow-back from one of the Middle Eastern countries early on. I also witnessed people fleeing Manhattan over the 59th St. Bridge, and then later when I met my daughter in Astoria for lunch...the tavern was uncharacterisically full for the time of day because of the people that had returned. Everyone was watching the television coverage...and it was all so surreal, and I knew that I had witnessed history...unfortunately, not a good history.

I recorded hours of television coverage on that day...but in all these years, I have never wanted to look at it.

[-] -1 points by skylar (-441) 8 years ago

"they" hate us because we are not muslim.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

That simply is not true, but i know that I will not be able to convince you otherwise..so think what you will.

[-] 0 points by hdean (-29) 8 years ago

The US population is a failed prison colony. Today it only exists as a mercenary army of paid professional killers to be sent on command by Goldman Sachs to kill anybody's children that don't do what they're told.

Today the biggest problem that Goldman Sachs has is that their 'paper-money' the US dollar is un-wanted by oil nations and thus the US killers are sent abroad to kill arab/persian children to knock some sense into their parents.

American's for far too long went along with the killing because so much "CARGO" ( usa is a cargo-cult ) was brought home to the USA, but now that the USA has NOTHING to offer the world accept worthless paper money, they USA has nothing and the people are no longer fat, dumb, and happy, and thus begat OWS, ...

OWS is nothing more than parasites trying to figure out why the carrion is no longer easy to find.


[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23285) 8 years ago

Well said, alexrai. Thank you.


[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 8 years ago

Satan? Really? Grow up.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

And what is American foreign policy that could possibly cause such a violent attack ?

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Check out struggle for freedom80's link to Noam Chomsky, he lays it out pretty good; and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Sorry, but while I understand your anger, that's one rhetorical step too far. And it is inaccurate regarding the attacker's motivations. Extreme and distorted Islamic fundamentalism and Apocalyptical visions on the part of some fanatics is not the result of our foreign policy.

Let me be clear. I agree absolutely that American foreign policy has done a great deal of serious, brutal harm, and has created justified rage at us from all around the world. But laying the blame for 9/11 on it is simply wrong. And it's not a little offensive.

[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

I'm not angry, it's just common sense. If we had left them alone for the last 50 years we wouldn't be in this situation.

Islamic fundamentalism is easy to point a finger at, but those countries have never had the chance to evolve past the stone age, because of our constant meddling. If they were not oil rich countries, they would have developed into democracies long ago, but we prevented that. Its easier to deal with dictators.

Its not the religion or the people, its circumstances. Christians used to wage brutal wars in the name of god, now they don't... but its because today's Christians are living in a rich 1st world Superpower democracy that hasn't been bombed since 1941. That makes a big difference.

Sorry to be offensive, but that is exactly what caused 9/11. It doesn't matter how unfortunate those attacks were, or how many people were killed, the cause is obvious to anyone who bothers to look for it.

I would agree though that there is nothing that justifies killing thousands of civilians, but I wish that logic would also apply to forces in the middle east. No amount of oil is worth it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I will test your sincerity by asking you this question. Some good must have come to the middleast through Americas involvement. It wasn't all hate causing right. So name a few of the good things. Hard question.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

I think it would be difficult to dispute that removing previously installed dictators and the Taliban were a benefit, but I still question the method it was brought about by.

By and large though, if I look back over the course of 50 years, I'd have to conclude that the nonsense and killing should have stopped a long time ago.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I would think all the oil USA bought from over there had to be beneficial. Surely the wealth from the oil trickled into their society.

[-] 2 points by GildasSapiens (266) 8 years ago

Most of the wealth from the oil hasn't "trickled" any further than the offshore bank accounts of the ruling so-called Royal families who were installed & supported by the USA.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Americans just can't do no right in some peoples eyes.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

We'll have to disagree (strongly) about that, for a whole host of reasons. Your fundamental (excuse the pun) point is not something I object to. But your rhetoric assumes too much in this particular case. The broader background is also far more complex than your statement, including your reply, suggests and is far too black-hat-white-hat to fit the history.

What's more, and I don't think you intended it, it implies a justification for the attacks. And that is what I consider offensive. There is no justification for deliberately targeting children, women, men who have no relationship to any foreign policy, but are simply workers trying to live their lives. Justification exists neither for victimizer nor victim, nor are the lines so clear between them.

That said, again, I don't dispute the basic premise that we have invited a great deal of rage on the basis of our actions. And unless we look at ourself with a clinical, objective eye, we are not likely to change until forced to. Tragically, it seems no country or society has ever done so willingly. National ego is invariably defended instead.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Oh I don't think they were justified at all, but neither did I find them particularly surprising. In fact I remember thinking back in 2001 that I was actually surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Sure we can disagree on the cause, but I'm curious though what you think actually caused 9/11?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

First, thank you for clarifying. IT's a whole lot better.

The primary cause was that Bin Laden believed his destiny was to start the Last Holy War, virtually Apocalyptical, But perpetrating an act such as 9/11, he would draw the "crusaders" into direct martial conflict with the Muslim world. He want to start a global war between Christians and Muslims in fulfillment of prophesy. And, of course, the Muslims would eventually win, establishing the One True Faith Globally. His motivation was not political, it was not about the poverty of his people (and certainly not his own) it was purely an extreme, radicalized distortion of Wahabi Islam.

In terms of the first Trade Center Attack, i actually knew someone who was "involved" in the sense that his Mosque in New Jersey (for which he was the treasurer) was forcibly taken over by taken over Omar Abdel-Rahman, and his thugs. It's a long story.- too long for this forum. Let's me just say that politics and American foreign policy had little to do with it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Iran is also trying to fulfill prophecy. Might be wise to take the threat seriously.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

You are full of it. They have NO desire for war. They have never said they do. Ahmadinijad, who is the only one of Iran's leaders to to talk about the 12th Imam, is not in charge of either Iran's nuclear program nor its foreign policy. What's more, he is being pushed from power by the Ayatollah himself. You are buying into the right wing propaganda machine's demagoguery. It fits conveniently well with your other stated anti-Islamic views.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

What prophesy are you talking about? They have NO designs on taking over the world. They never have. Whatever threat you see, that's not it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

I don't know the exact details. It's not about taking on the world, it has something to do about the return of the 12th Iman? A war is why they want this.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Fair enough. I still have to consider that Christians used to wage holy war on Muslims many years ago. I think the difference is that Christians today are wealthy people in democratic countries, and far better educated than they were during the crusades. In other words they have better things to do.

It makes a big difference and I think if these Muslim countries had been allowed to develop as the Christian ones have, absent US support for brutal regimes, that the situation would be a lot different. Certainly support for terrorist organizations amongst the general populations would be a lot less.

So I guess agree to disagree it is, but that's an interesting perspective thanks for posting it.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Reply to your post below:

Funding both sides of the Iran/Iraq war is an issue on we agree. But that's a separate one than others you raised. There are many more issues upon which I am certain I would agree with you.

But I object to broad stroke arguments that conflate or distort issues. I object to ideology and predisposition determining conclusions instead of evidence and facts. That's what the right wing does, ad nauseum. And I am always disappointed when the left wing does it, too. I am grateful that the left does it far more seldom than the right, but that doesn't make it OK when it does.

One can't solve a problem if it is misidentified. Doing so only creates more problems. If one foot has gangrene, amputating the wrong one does more harm. That's why doctors need to double check what the real problem is before they start cutting. Similarly, when trying to help heal the world, dispassion is called for. Letting personal passions color or determine our ideas only does harm. That doesn't mean not caring, but it means being careful not to make false accusations or overly broad ones. Only with accurate diagnosis (to extend the metaphor shamelessly) based on accurate evidence can a proper prescription for action be determined. Only then can real caring lead to real justice.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

I agree with that, which I why I've been so adamant on this thread that you can not blame the Muslim religion for what is an obvious consequence of western policy.

Perhaps after Syria and Iran get blown to bits we will find out if it continuing with the same idiotic policies is really helping the situation. Incidentally, I just came across an article that states the CIA overthrew the democratically elected Syrian leadership in the late 1940s. You learn something new everyday.

Anyway, check out the Eisenhower quote at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis this is not some new idea I just dreamed up and and am making generalizations on.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

I don't agree with you one bit about Muslim countries (more accurately, Arabic and Persian ones) being held back from progress because of specifically American interference. . If you really look at the history of the region more closely, you will find that the power elite THERE refused to allow such progress as it would undermine their power.

What's more, those counties were not under the influence of America at all, but France, England and Italy. America may have a lot to answer for in the region, but not to any of your accusations.

The one (and only) instance in which you are correct is Iran. The US did indeed undermine, directly, a nascent democracy there when installing the Shah. And he was indeed a totalitarian. But his totalitarianism was FAR less severe than those of any of his neighboring countries, including the majority of them ones that the US had little or NO say in. As wring as our involvement was, teh Shah took over a country with less than a 10% literacy rate and turned it into one that had a 97% literacy rate. He was hated less by his people for his hold on power than by his pulling Iran into the 20th Century too quickly. It was rapid modernization, not any forcible holding back of progress, that fueled the revolution.

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

Saddam Hussein doesn't ring a bell I suppose... funding both sides of the Iran-Iraq war.

There has been meddling in that region for a long time because of the oil resources; though yes there is more than one player making trouble there.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Thankyou epa1nter.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

I wouldn't be so quick to thank me. Although I am critical of Alexrai's rhetoric, I am more in alignment with his statements so far than I am with yours. And the reason is simple: I detect a certain Islamophobia coming form you, which I find unacceptable and frankly racist.

[-] -1 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

Spoken like a sheltered home boy that has never been out of this safe haven and experienced foreign peoples coming to your home and killing thousands around you, even indiscriminately.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

No, as I said, I agree with your anger. But specifically in the case of 9/11, it is misplaced. Osama wanted to start a holy war to end the world, with Islam winning the final battle. He considered himself to be a cog in wheel of prophesy. It had NOTHING to do with foreign policy.

Plenty of other things did. The anger is real and justified. And I agree with it. But it had nothing to do with this particular attack, which was PURELY based on religious fanaticism.

EDIT: I should say I agree with Alexrai's anger, not with yours. You area troll. And you should go away.

[-] -1 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

Tell the truth, you've never been in the middle east or ever seen a single person brutally and senselessly killed, have you?

Do you have any idea of how long the USA has been the world's police, killing for alleged democracy and how many have been senselessly killed? Long before 911 even.

You've never served in this nations military, have you?

You've never killed a person because that was what you were ordered to do, have you? Not up close and personal like or far away so that you didn't have to see them die, right?

You surely haven't seen foreign troops in your hood doing anything remotely resembling that either.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

In fact I HAVE been to the Middle East, had 20 assorted guns pointed directly at my head, just missed a bus that was blown up in front of me, killing over a dozens men women and children, and I was in walking distance of the Trade Center when it was attacked, too, and lost a dozen friends there. I watched the second tower come down as I waited in line to donate blood and for days was covered in the ashes of my fellow citizens and friends while breathing in the sweet/sour smell of their burning bodies.

I am telling you something very simple. You history is wrong. It is inaccurate ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ATTACK. You seem to think I am at odds with you about other people's rage at the US. I AM NOT, and have stated so 4 times already. I am NOT your enemy.

But making indiscriminate accusations does not further your cause. It hurts it.

And suggesting that there is ANY justification for deliberately targeting thousands of civilians, simple workers, mothers, children, people who are not involved with foreign policy on any level, is reprehensible. There is no justification when a nation does it, and there is no justification when a madman does it.

Does America have to change? YOU BET IT DOES! But taking responsibility does not mean accepting falsehoods in the name of the greater truth. Instead it means looking at the actual, real, truth. It is ugly enough without piling on inaccuracies. And it sure as hell doesn't imply justification for ANY mass murder, American or otherwise.

EDIT: I should say I agree with Alexrai's anger, not with yours. You are a troll. And you should go away.

[-] -1 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

So pray tell, who actually did it...........

do you really think you know and is that because "they' told you?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 8 years ago

Oh, no, you're not another conspiracy whacko on top of everything else, are you?

Why the fuck do I even bother. Take your meds.

[-] 0 points by SmeggitySpooge (78) 8 years ago

Well "WHO" did it?

Osama? Saddam? Al Queda? Who?

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

And what American foreign policy are you referring too?

It is the terrorist that should be worried. Americans haven't even begun to fight back.

[-] 3 points by alexrai (851) 8 years ago

What foreign policy? How about overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran for starters. Installing Saddam Hussein. Happily profiting off the sale of arms to both countries as they blew each other up. Financing Osama Bin Laden himself to get rid of the soviets, never thinking he might just decide not to go into retirement after he was done.

I don't even know where you start... I would highly recommend Noam Chomsky though, he's got a real knack for calling a spade a spade.

Supporting the brutal murder of thousands of Turkish Muslims... there are so many examples its well beyond disgusting.

Maybe not, but the country is broke, broken, and can not print money and sell bonds to China forever. Take a look at Greece, that's the end result of misguided policies which piss away trillions of dollars.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Foreign policy with a savage religion is never easy.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

we romanticize the hunt

in the violence the eternal warrior

[-] 1 points by toukarin (488) 8 years ago

Actually no they don't. Do you know who have been on the UK list of terrorists? At least 1 Israeli Prime Minister. FARC are terrorists, IRA were called terrorists, Oklahoma bomber and Unabomber were called terrorists, Basque terrorists in Spain etc etc.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

Terrorism is violent rule of a government over a people by fear

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 years ago

you are the worst kind of idiot

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 years ago

I remember penguin publishing put put a book in the 90's

that supposedly upset Islam fundamentalist.


Bombs threat were called in.

Anyone can call in a bomb threat.

So there's no proof that these "radical" actually called in the threats.


Sometimes, I wonder in the media is exaggerating

when it reports a religion that would kill over a book.


or at the very least "cherry picking" what to apologize about\

[-] 1 points by mantis1 (28) 8 years ago

I don't think they value human life. They blow themselves up, stone people to death, etc... However, the two biggest wars in history were fought by the West. 19 million dead in the first one. 50 million in the second one.

[-] 0 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

Yep, that's it the asian people ( east of turkey ) simply don't love life or children,..

Oh shit I forgot how much the USA folk love their children,

But then the USA only exists to kill asian children, cuz after all what else would there be for the imperial army's to do if Obama weren't sending drones to kill children?

For the record, its the USA that hates life, ... its the USA that are the biggest assholes on earth.

Never in history have their been such assholes as USA citizens,

In vietnam mai-lai massacre US soldiers cut off genitals of children and wore like necklace, ..

In Iraq & Afhgan US soldiers crush the testicles of infants to get innocent parents to talk about their neighbors, ...standard shit,

WHY do they fucking hate us? I wonder?

ALL americans are god damn fucking assholes.


[-] 3 points by Pottsandahalf (141) 8 years ago

Fuck you asshole

[-] 1 points by skylar (-441) 8 years ago

your name says it all,.....you're a wiener

[-] 0 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 8 years ago

Crushing babies testicles? Your proof?

[-] 0 points by hdean (-29) 8 years ago

Crushing babies testicles? Google

Google "testicle crushing iraq", ... there are 100's of story's about this practice in Iraq, ..and everywhere in the world the US Soldiers operate.

They're going to bring this shit to the USA, now that NDAA has been signed by Obama in Dec 2011.

President Has Legal Power to Torture Children ... of children, since one of its most influential legal architects is advocating the President’s right to order the crushing of a child’s testicles? ... few others and adopted by the Administration has resulted in thousands being abducted from their homes in Afghanistan, Iraq ... informationclearinghouse.info/article11488.htm More results Bush Advisor Says President Has Legal Power to Torture Children ... deems that he’s got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the ... literally to death in U.S.-run torture centers in Afghanistan, Iraq ... prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/090106torturechild...
John Yoo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles ... complicity in torture and other crimes against humanity at Abu Ghraib in Iraq ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo
USA CRUSHES CHILDREN'S TESTICLES IN FRONT OF MUSLIM PARENTS TO ... How would you feel if your child's testicles was being ... This money has been used to illegally occupy Iraq ... if they mention the possibility of someone crushing a ... youtube.com/watch?v=vvz-uqa7Soc More results The WaPo Did Not Scoop This Story in 2005 | Emptywheel If Yoo walked away thinking the President could order the crushing of childrens testicles.. then ... Coverage of protests in Libya, Iraq, Bahrain, Yemen, Egypt and more ... emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/04/13/the-wapo-did-not-scoop-this-...

[-] 1 points by ogrdanny (73) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 8 years ago

We're number one! We're number one!

[-] -2 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

Essentially your right, but the reality is as follows. USA is #1, had we not gone door to door in Iraq and crushed the testicles of first born Iraqi children the USA would not be safe today.

1.) Soros paid for CANVAS years ago, a bunch of servers to cause unrest around the world. The CIA used this software to bring about all the 'arab springs', CANVAS while paid for by Soros is owned and ran by Kall Lasn of Vancouver, Canada.

2.) Kall Lasn decided to use the software in the USA, and he called 'Occupy Wall Street', the goal was an 'arab spring' in the CIA, and of course had it been ran by the CIA from USA it would be illegal, but under the law as long as it was offshored, ... its all good.

3.) Yes, the OWS only exists to PROTECT-OBAMA, it has NO other purpose.

4.) Worst of all is that OWS was co-opted from day-one by Van Jones and SEIU, and now completely taken over by the public education and prison unions. Modern USA education is prison for children, and then later they're warehoused in permanent prisons.

Welcome to the CIA's "Arab Spring" for the USA.

Ran from the white house? Sort of true. Paid for by Goldman Sachs? Absolutely true.

Numb Nuts? Hair-lip single digit IQ ameriKKKan's are god's chosen people for the coming slaughter.

[-] 3 points by ogrdanny (73) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 8 years ago

As an Occupier, I'm proud to say, "Fuck Obama." :)

Most Occupiers I know would agree. We want to see massive systemic changes to how the system is run. Not to put one bureaucracy or another in charge, but to actually put the people in charge.

As to the SEIU, they seem to avoid us. The business union bureaucracies seem afraid of this rank and file empowerment. They're too entrenched in colluding with business and government to actually fight for workers like they purport to.

Workers, and people in general, are realizing that these bureaucracies don't nor will ever serve them. We're realizing that we have to fight for ourselves, together, if shit's going to change at all.

And regarding Iraq, after all that fighting, deaths, and money spent, are you really ready to claim we're safe from all those boogeymen?

[-] -1 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

The problem is that everything you have said is correct, ... but its NOT what the OWS says and does in public.

OWS is an OBAMA WHORE 24-7, ...

Hypocrisy will destroy OWS.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 8 years ago

And you would say to "western" Muslim Congressman Kieth Ellison?

And you would say what to a 90 year old "western" WW II german nazi officer?

[-] 0 points by Neuwurldodr (744) 8 years ago

Oh boy, here we go again... We are great because we are born in the USA, the land of the free and the home of the naiive.. Let's face it....when "they", unbknownest to most...go into a country, does it ever, ever, ever become worth anything?

It's almost like strip mining, or the rain forest, or the water rights...

Once "they" get in there, drain the natural resources, starve the culture out, and then....ta da...send in the military to squash the unhappy people who didn't want "their" fake asses in there in the first place!. But remember...always blame it on the country's religion because that is really what fails to agree with the greedy, not the needy! Now really....when are "they" ever gonna change??.

[-] 0 points by tbuontempo (194) from Jersey City, NJ 8 years ago

Oh yea, we are different.

Instead of doing it quick, we drink sugar water, eat meat that is 60% fat, watch TV, drive cars, pollute our environment, just to make money, and put uranium in our bullets and shells, so when soldiers return from the wars, they are loaded with cancer.

Yes, the US values life. After thinking about this, I want to set myself on fire.

[-] 0 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

Do Christians value life? Spanish inquisition, crusades, conquistadors, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the highest death row population in the western world right here in America, not to mention the slaughter and genocide of the indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere. Oh, and in a life or death situation, most evangelicals pick the unborn over the life of the mother.

So seriously. Do Christians value life?

[-] 1 points by AugustRushLimbaugh (3) 8 years ago

So seriously, how many hospitals are named after atheists?

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 8 years ago

More than you think. There may be no atheists in foxholes, but their are no pious in the halls of power either... and that includes the Vatican, cupcake.


[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

It's more than this... it's not that we value life more, it's that we are more "civil," and civility is an evolutionary tool of expansion, in that, self imposed behavioral controls allow for denser populations even amongst people of diverse backgrounds; we all live in harmony, possessed of a more or less common mindset - "civility" - and thereby expand our safe boundaries.

We are to be less impulsive, more analytical, more "rational." Let's face it, we spend a tremendous amount of time dedicated to discussion and debate in an attempt to develop some greater rationale; why? Well because on the individual level most ARE impulsive; there is no definite rationality on the individual level; it does not exist.

This label of "savage" is a reference to a perceived lesser civility; and yes, we certainly see them as less civil, less humane, therefore less human.

Our colonial ancestors did not use this term; they referred to all not as savages but "salvages"; the question being, are they salvageable? Or, should we merely exterminate them?

Why the northern European evolved in such a direction, to incorporate such belief, is anybody's guess; actually it's not, I believe it occurred for reason.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

The discussion needed a starting point. I agree, we have a peaceful environment as opposed to the middleast. And that makes the whole difference. We separated government from religion. They did not. There religion Islam is a fearful existence and should be abolished / removed/ separated from government. Though very difficult to accomplish. Many use Islam as arabs of power and control. As once did Christianity.

[-] 1 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

I can tell you are a Jew. You have so much hatred towards Christianity and Islam.

I also think you hate yourself. Because you don't deserve to be liked!

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

Christianity was spread primarily by force but not necessarily by Rome; if we look at the invasion/ conversion/ of the Baltics (yes, by force), for example, they are not Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholicism also encountered resistance in the British Isles... those in power ultimately said NO to their attempt to control state. And there you have it - separation of church and state. But it occurs for a reason; we were Druids through and through and although Christianity presented a decided advantage, politically and otherwise, those in power ultimately proved unwilling to relinquish an absolute control to a distant power.

I have wondered to what extent our ancient Druidism served to influence our Christianity; what effect, for example, on civility?

So... I think, on the evolutionary level, that there is less need at present time for such intensity. But that does not mean that we have totally relinquished our religion, as the rules of our existence, only that it has modified to a more casual form - casual Christianity as open minded, and open ended, is our current religion. It has allowed for a greater civility. And we are but victims of the fictions evolution continues to create for us.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

It comes down to freedom of choice. And this creates a happier life. So the problem with the enemy is the power and influence Islam plays in their day to day lives. Perhaps it is because of the violence and unhappiness that they have lost value for life.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 8 years ago

It's only freedom of choice if one is free. Sharia Law has never permitted such freedom of conscience; it's strictly do or die (note here the intentionally imposed psychological pain, too).

[-] 0 points by Dell (-168) 8 years ago

Answer - NO

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Is it because of all the fanatical brainwashing? Are there a few that long for peace and safety. And would not harm anyone.

[-] 0 points by reaclas (-1) 8 years ago

Muslims value life ? No they are born to live and born to die savages

[-] 0 points by Mowat (164) 8 years ago

You have a heart - or better still don't have one - full of hatred.

You are a Jew. Right?

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Do Americans value life? Is bombing the crap out of people causing untold human misery something to be proud of? I don't think so!

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

We don't bomb ourselves.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Yes of course not, but this is about valuing life, so that is not only about Americans, it's about all life.Those who took up arms to fight and die for just wars are considered heroes in this country. Over there those who take their own lives in the hopes of bettering the lives of those loved ones left behind are considered martyrs. This is a difficult concept for Westerners to understand, including me, but it does not mean that they don't value life. The Tunisian revolution, and hence all the revolutions it later inspired...including OWS, began with a man taking his own life.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

Cmon, you can't possibly equalize them and us. We have far more freedoms and human rights. For them evil is a daily occurrence. Self inflicted by by a misguided religion.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

As I have pointed out in another post....there is nothing humane about dropping a cluster bomb which kills and burns its victims indiscriminantly over a wide area. Just because there is no one there to witness it does not make it any better.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 8 years ago

What would be your suggestion for creating peace on earth?

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 8 years ago

Unfortunately, I do not have the answer for that, but we should all give it thought.

[-] 0 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

Does OWS value life?

[-] -1 points by nytefury (-57) 8 years ago

"Do Muslims value life ?"

One word: NO.

They have a lot in common with the Leftist abortion industry in the US.

[-] 1 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

In the asian world ( east of turkey ) ALL abortion illegal and not allowed. Period.

Only the USA kills children and loves it.

All asians would give their life in a nano-second for their child, I have never known an asian that wouldn't commit suicide if he/her lost their child.

It's always been standard OP for US soldiers to say "only good gook is dead gook", ...

"Asians love death" ,....


Someday your god damn fucking nazi atrocity's are going to come home to ameriKKKa folks, ... its called KARMA this shit will come home to you.

[-] 1 points by phila9012 (128) from Philadelphia, PA 8 years ago

yep but it is because of liberals, I am not racist and I live in America, honestly I dont think abortion should be used as birth control, like some people use it as

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 8 years ago

isnt china east of turkey? abortion is the law

[-] 1 points by BlackSun (275) from Agua León, BC 8 years ago

Go fuck yourself you ugly little Marxist rectal fistula.

[-] 0 points by nytefury (-57) 8 years ago

You remind me of Rev. Wright,but with a speech impediment.

[-] 1 points by nweiner (-9) 8 years ago

YEP, and REV wright where is he now? Obama attended every fucking sunday for 20 years, and as soon as OBAMA won the nomination, he quit coming to our church, ...

OBAMA is a hypo-crit.

[-] -1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 8 years ago

islam is a strange religion. as a rule christians value life more than muslims. look for the liberals to go nuts with this one. they love , for some reason, muslims, but dislike christians.

[-] 1 points by B76RT (-357) 8 years ago

islam is not a religion, calling itself one doesn't make it so. it's a political system.

[-] 1 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 8 years ago

yep, started by not a carpenter but a warrior and political leader, mohamed the (cuss word).