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Forum Post: Stopping Zionist War-Mongers: What we can do

Posted 2 years ago on March 4, 2012, 9:51 a.m. EST by GildasSapiens (266)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Admin Edit: Changed Jewish to Zionist. There's nothing wrong with the Jewish people, the problem is with a nationalist faction.

AIPAC speaks for AIPAC, not for the Jews. AIPAC supports war with Iran. American Jews don’t.

The truck driving around the conference grounds will make it clear that AIPAC doesn’t represent us. Not when they bang the drums of war with Iran, not when they support Israel’s occupation, not when they intimidate members of Congress, and not when they ask for unconditional military aid for Israel.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/stopping-jewish-war-mongers-what-we-can-do/

Occupy AIPAC!

34 Comments

34 Comments


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[-] 3 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

OK. The first thing we MUST do is to properly identify these hate filled warmongers: we must not call them "Jewish war-mongers". I find the words "Jewish war-mongers" to be offensive and totally inappropriate. Call them "Zionist warmongers".

These people are not Jews. They are Zionists. This word denotes one who succumbs to a hate filled and destructive ideology. By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are imbued with the tenets of the Bible. As everyone who has read that book knows, only the Messiah can re-establish the Kingdom. Therefore, Zionism is an ideology whose teachings are the diametric opposite of the book and are indefensible.

Let us all condemn the treasonous and hate filled policies and actions of the treacherous AIPAC. There is nothing even remotely American or, for that matter, Jewish about this group. Indeed, as you say, they do not represent Jews. Therefore, do NOT call them Jews. Call them Zionists so that people can readily identify them with that hate filled and murderous ideology.

[-] 3 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Thank you for this succinct explanation. I have been posting similar things since the beginning, and begging everyone to please make the distinction between Zioinsts and Jewish people. There are lots and lots of good everyday Jewish people who want nothing more than to live normal peaceful lives like anyone else.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

War mongers are warmongers. Among them may be some Zionists. But Zionism is NOT a destructive, war mongering ideology. It is simply support of a Jewish homeland.

I am as appalled by the Rush to war that the Netanyahu government seems to be engaging in. BUt his stance has nothing to do with Zionism, but right wing demagoguery, using existential fear to promote his agenda.

He is distorting Zionism as much as George Bush distorted American pride and fears of terrorism to promote a war on Iraq. Does that mean that being in favor of the existence of the nation the USA means that, by definition, one is a war-monger or subscriber to a hate filled destructive ideology? Of course not. Only the distortion of Being pro-American fits that mold. Just so, being in favor of a Jewish homeland is benign. How that support is manipulated by the hatful war mongers is what is at issue.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

Can it be clarified that a Zionism can exist which includes living peacefully amongst the native Palestinians of the land? i.e. that Zionism does not mean a "Jewish only" State?

If it can, then I think the problem is solved.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Zionism does not, nor has it ever, meant a Jewish "only" state. It has simply meant a Jewish state. Israel has plenty of Christian and Muslim citizens, and the largest Bahai center in the world.

[-] 1 points by Shule (1696) 2 years ago

Thanks for answering my rhetorical question. Now if we can only get others to read this dialog.

[-] 1 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

On other websites, racist Jew haters call for a ''white only'' homeland - is that ideology acceptable to you? It certainly isn't to me.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

False analogy on so many levels I can't count them.

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[-] 1 points by GildasSapiens (266) 2 years ago

But "Muslim terrorists" (a phrase that's almost ubiquitous in this forum) is OK - despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims reject & condemn people who claim to be Muslims but promote or commit terrorism?

If you bothered to read the linked article, you'd see that all the wording is from there, & was composed by a Jewish female activist.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the US are terrorist

[-] 2 points by ogrdanny (73) from Grand Rapids Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Neither are OK. Referring to a general religion and branding all followers of that religion with the extreme interpretations of a few is wrong.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

it isnt a few.. stoning people is in the courts.. thats not a few.. death penalty for not abiding by religion is in the courts.. not the few. death for breaking 'religious laws / is a way of life of cultural fact. not the few. do not try to pretend that the entire religion is not based on fear... you either do what muhaned said or you will die. thats not the few.. thats what all the laws are based on.

[-] 3 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Not really. That's a cultural interpretation of scripture, much the same way extreme fundamentalists pervert the Bible in American culture. The burka and genital mutilation are not required in the Koran. Those are cultural interpretations of the Koran.

Islam is still a relatively immature religion compared to Christianity and Judaism. At this stage in Christianity's development, the Crusades had just been put to bed but the Spanish Inquisition was still kicking and the Salem witch trials were still a couple hundred years in the future. And with candidates like Rick Santorum running around, it's clear that Christianity still has a lot of growing pains ahead of it.

Interestingly, Judaism is also a relatively immature religion compared to the polytheistic powerhouse that is Hinduism. Hinduism has been around as an organized religion longer than any other on earth, by far. And they still have the caste system to overcome. So nobody's out of the woods.

But the biggest influence on religious teachings is cultural, not scriptural. Because clever wordsmiths can find a passage in any of the books that justifies a cultural ideology. Zionism IS the correct term to use and it would be much better if a similar term existed to describe extremist Muslims but it doesn't.

So I've been using a generic term to describe extremist fundamentalists of ALL types -- nihilist. Anyone who thinks in black and white terms, who believes his Manichean ideology is the ONLY ideology and anything less makes life not worth living, is a nihilist. Nihilists would rather destroy everything than live in compromise with anything. People like that come from all backgrounds and cultures.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

my point is these ideologies are the norm not the exception in islamic culture to try to portray islam as anything else if a falshood. this is how the islamic government runs the entire country ,. not some crazy fundamentalist off if the far desert. its mainstream not fundamentalist. its how they base the laws, schools, courts, everything. you want to believe this is not how an entire culture thinks but your wrong. you should research a little better about what things are happening on a daily basis.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

I don't think you are considering the extent to which the Islamic world has been influenced by the western financial oligarchy. The British East India company began manipulating Muslims against Hindus as a divide and conquer strategy in India, over 200 years ago, and the Wall Street/London axis been doing it ever since.

I've read that most middle eastern intelligence agencies are run by British intelligence.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

"my point is these ideologies are the norm not the exception in islamic culture"

Not in America. Not in Canada. Not in Indonesia or the Philippines. Just cut it out.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

no? then why did the malasian government particularly single out an american singer to warn them that if they performed dressed as an american they would be thrown out of the country? why were there 3 men arrested in britian for handing out fliers that portrayed throwing gays off cliffs as a way to rid the country of them? why was a man arrested in america for attacking a costume of muhamed? these ideologies run deep no one should forget that

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Well, I didn't mention Malaysia, did I? I understand what you're saying about cultural mores, but it's not official policy in the places I listed and plenty of others with significant Muslim populations. They just aren't the boogeymen you think they are. Some may be, yes. But most are not.

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[-] -1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

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[-] 2 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

This is a great post. The only thing I would like to point out is, please make the distinction between Zioinsts and Jewish people. There are lots and lots of good everyday Jewish people who want nothing more than to live normal peaceful lives like anyone else.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Please make the distinction between Zionism and war-mongering, too. Zionism has nothing to do with war. It has only to do with supporting the existence of a homeland for the Jews. Anything else is an unwarranted and unsupported overlay.

One can be in favor of a Jewish homeland, hence a Zionist, and hate war at the same time. Living normal peaceful lives, in fact, is what MOST Zionists want.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The roots of Zionism are too bloody to disassociate for me. It's one thing to be a Judaist who yearns for the return of the Messiah and the restoration of the homeland. It's something else entirely to initiate an illegal land grab through violence and intimidation. And that's exactly how this version of Israel got its start.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1525/jps.2001.30.3.5?uid=3739808&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47698797415567

The word Zionism cannot be redeemed in my mind and, I think, in a lot of other minds, too. You might want to just let it go.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Your version of history and mine are entirely different. (And Zionism has nothing to do with Messianic hopes: It was a secular movement.)

Zionism |ˈzīəˌnizəm|

noun

a movement for the establishment and the development and protection of a Jewish nation..

Definitions are important. If you want to discuss history, policies, etc, fine. But at least use the words in terms of what they actually mean. I am a Zionist. I am in favor of the existence of a Jewish homeland. But I also want the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to end now, and for illegal settlements to be abandoned. I want peace between the two peoples, and as much equity as possible given the extremely complex situation in the region.

[-] 2 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

A secular movement that created a theocratic apartheid state. Can you say propaganda? My great-great grandmother was a Jew. My wife is a Jew. My kids will be Jews. This isn't about Jews. It's about assholes using Jews and their faith for expansionist goals. Dictionary definitions are all well and good but associations are stronger.

It really pains me that Israel is the issue that still divides progressives. If our versions of history are different, then I'm afraid yours is wrong and I'm not playing with that revisionist crap anymore. Israel was born in blood and it has lived in blood ever since. Ask almost any Hasidic Jew in Brooklyn why Israel suffers so much and their answer will almost be uniform -- because the Zionists co-opted Judaism with their arrogance and violence and presumptuousness and Israel is doomed to perish in flames. That from Jews who spend 10 hours a day reading Torah. And they tell me this immediately after making me do Tefillin.

They wouldn't say it if the Zionists hadn't co-opted the religion for their nefarious secular purposes. Everywhere we look today, assholes have co-opted religions, from Al Qaeda to Zionism to the Christian Coalition. I don't have a problem with faith or spirituality or even an organized religion that keeps to itself. But opportunists who co-opt a religion to stir up fervor for a military campaign have turned the religion into a cancer.

No other violent apartheid state in history has had such unconditional support from beyond its borders. And that support is a direct result of the Jewish makeup of Israel. So you can call it secular all you want, but its the Jewish connection that keeps the money flowing. And Zionism is the word that melds all of that together. It's irredeemable.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

As I said, your version of history is different than mine. And I believe it is yours that is revisionist and is utterly wrong.

The fact that you take the Messianic views of Hassids (and a specific sect, to boot) as how the overwhelming majority of Jews feel about the establishment of a homeland only attests to your using any source, no matter how irrelevant, to support your point of view. It does not do you credit. Do you understand that the sect you are talking about (the Satmars) opposes the creation of a Jewish state because they believe only God is allowed do that at the end of the world? It is a purely religious, Messianic - and extreme - view. That view is not shared by other Jews, including other Ultra-Orthodox ones. And, btw, Lubovichers live in Brooklyn, too.

I object to the scurrilous associations you attach to Zionism. You are NOT describing the yearning for a homeland of a historically persecuted and universally oppressed people. Their hopes were not nefarious. Zionism was not a co-option of religion, but a national liberation movement of Jews, both secular and religious ones, who were all defined as a single "race" by others. That external definition, not religion, is the very reason a homeland was necessary. That external definition was racism, not religious sectarianism. A Jew need not be religious to be a Jew, neither in their own eyes nor, historically, in those of their genocidal persecutors. Rabbis and atheists alike were gassed, no religious litmus test necessary.

The policies practiced by the current Israeli state have no relationship to Zionism. Those policies have to do with right wing politics and greed alone. This isn't about Zionism. It's about assholes.

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[-] 1 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

Amen to that. Now the question is, what websites are there which clearly make this distinction so that those of us who wish to communicate this same message about peace and reconciliation may do so peacefully? I saw this but wonder if it is what we are looking for: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/ Any other ideas out there??

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

I smell nothing but set up and propaganda here...

[-] 1 points by gmxusa (274) 2 years ago

Lord Netanyahu will be here soon to give Obama a last warning.

[-] 0 points by Secretariat (33) 2 years ago

""NATO is staging "Massacre of Christians in Syria by Muslims", by bringing Al Qaida and other radical Islamists to Syria, in order to initiate a war, where they can nuke Iran, give a lesson to rising China, control Middle East oil resources, and allow some people to print as much money as they wish by using petrodollars, so they can control the society and the world through their wealth and power. This will also allow capitalism to continue by breaking the Eastern and the Socialist spirituality which is growing around the world and which is the biggest threat to capitalist ruling elite. ""

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[-] 0 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Outlawing freedom of religion is as fascist as it is unAmerican.

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[-] 0 points by Pujete (160) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Freedom is my religion. To you, it is a blasphemy.

This, I find very encouraging.

[-] -2 points by Carlitini99 (-167) 2 years ago

hey i'm a zionist war-monger. I 100% support israel. i find it hard to believe that anyone could love muslim terrorist and the nation states that support them, Iran being at the top. As is said 'When Muslim put down their weapons there will be no war, when Israeli's put down their weapons there will be no Israel. ' So (cuss word) you.

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

"hey i'm a zionist war-monger."

Excellent. Do us all a favor and go enlist in the IDF.

"i find it hard to believe that anyone could love muslim terrorist and the nation states that support them"

That would be hard since nobody here said anything remotely like that.

"When Muslim put down their weapons there will be no war..."

You mean like there was no war in Bosnia or Kosovo? Or do you mean like there'll be no Muslims as in western China and Chechnya?

"...when Israeli's put down their weapons there will be no Israel."

Since when did Israel have a right to evict residents from their land, slaughter their families, forcibly march them into two massive concentration camps and call themselves the victim? Since when was it the United States' responsibility to save world Jewry from total genocide AND foot the bill for the Zionist's fake country? Why is it OUR job? Don't the Israeli's have "G_d" on their side? Isn't that what they teach their children in school every day? When will you neo-cons ever pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps? I'm getting tired of paying for your incompetence.

"So (cuss word) you."

Fuck you, too, freeloader.

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[-] 1 points by nikilister (109) 2 years ago

There was no Israel to begin with.

The British "Zionist" Jews and Atheist money and power freaks figured out it was the best way to push Zionism to forefront because they couldn't justify a Jewish minority and a an atheist elite ruling Britain and for that matter Europe and US by democratic means.

The question is why don't they create a "free" country and call it something else and let everyone live there the way they lived there before?

Instead they blow up twin towers in NY and justify a war in Afghanistan and Iraq to show the world, "oh, we are fighting terror and protecting Israel". wtf??