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Posted 11 years ago on Aug. 30, 2012, 5:17 p.m. EST by anonymous
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I agree and don't agree ... As far as anyone joining this protest I'm for it - I do think that there is a great sense in out country's youth right now that there is a generation that sat on their laurels and allowed the system to get this bad; if they want to join now and realize it now - great. I think there is also a sense of the baby boomers being quite set in their older years having had a start, having bought homes, having raised kids, and then leaving nothing for entire generations to come. They elected the officials that created the corruption. There is nobody truly looking out for the youth. There is this sort of sense the youth are entitled and don't want to work - but it seems we don't share the same consumer values and it's not the work we mind but the lack of purpose (I mean there is a whole generation of people who don't want to retire until they finish renovating rooms in their houses c'mon retire already so some young people can eat, I mean not only do you have SSI but you have pensions) and there is also that they could easily have quit one job back in their primes and walked across the street to the other good paying factory with awesome benefits if the employers got too pushy whereas today's youth can't afford food or housing or medical and if they don't like it there are plenty of Chinese slaves who can do it for less. The boomers are set because they borrowed from our generation and allowed outsourcing. Now they want to come pouring in with their advice - it's kind of insulting. The youth are hurting more than anyone in this economy. The elderly are too I agree, but the boomers, I'm not so sure. They stand out to me as doing especially well. Could it be perception sure, but who is buying all this overpriced stuff? If you were to be honest and say prices should be coming down - when a pair of socks costs more than an hour of pay at today's lower wage... but someone is keeping those prices artificially inflated / just like the housing and rents. Who are the youth renting from? Who owns all the houses back from when home ownership was an achievable possibility in life ? And who is renting to the youth at higher rate than a mortgage? I don't know - just seems to be a generation full of advice when they really kind of aren't the experts here. Because A - they had a shot at upward mobility and B are responsible for the situation now where entire generations will be sacrificed to feed their own lives and retirements while we get none...? So whatever anyone's individual thoughts or ideas are I support the discussions and welcome anyone to this movement - but there is this great sense I get that the youth are being "counselled" by a generation that could use some lessons of their own.
After reading through quite a lot of comments on this post, I'm going to add one more. First, I'm a Boomer. 57 years old. Second, I'm as idealistic as I was in my 20s, and the prevailing wisdom is that people become less idealistic and more practical as they get older. So much for stereotypes.
Here's the thing that is not being talked about. People are people. Age has nothing to do with it. The Rich will do what the Rich do. The Poor will do what the Poor do. Human nature is human nature. It doesn't change, regardless of generation. They just do their thing under whatever system they happen to find themselves. Some find themselves living under Capitalism. Some under Socialism. Some under Communism. Some under Religious Dictatorships.
The reason nothing changed under the Boomers and the reason you are angry about it is because of the system...the System...the SYSTEM.
If you don't focus on the system and stop wasting time blaming generations you'll never get anywhere.
Lastly, I used to make almost $70k per year until I was laid off about 3 years ago. Now I make zilch...poverty...living off savings. So you really need to get a grip on your assumptions about people. There are as many personal situations as there are people. Blaming older people for a fubar system is the wrong focal point. Learn what the proper focal point is and put your efforts there in trying to change the system...the System...the SYSTEM. The rest is a waste of precious time.
I agree with you, but "the system" has a name: the ruling class aka the wealthy elite, the capitalists, the 1%. They are the puppet masters. Don't believe me? Watch the comedies called conventions.
Well said UD.
I know older people that still work for the military industrial complex
In most respects I agree with that - but I do like the break the current youth seems to be having with the system ...they seem to be putting a foot down and saying no we will not compromise we will not negotiate - personally I'm in my thirties and work full time and feel very stuck - I will say the youth have reached a point where there are no jobs quite literally and they can't live - I mean eat or afford housing. If I had never left one job recently to try to pursue something more interesting to me I would never have known just how bad things have become. You can try and try and try to get a job, put everything you have into it and wow to my surprise it was nearly impossible. The youth are being forced to rebel maybe in a way the older generations never had to. When people hit the bottom they don't have much choice. One thing you did mention is savings (savings is a pipe dream for my generation and those beneath me) it's you get laid off and become homeless, not for lack of saving or being frugal but simply because we're always operating in the red on today's pay vs. cost of living. But I do agree with you in that it's not any specific group that has caused this, we can't exactly pinpoint the decline, we can only measure what collectively we do about it - if anything I want to see occupy not become just about the youth but about everyone who is struggling, or stagnating, or feeling prisoner to this system. So I do agree with you we need to fix the system. It's such a big word though: SYSTEM....and so begins a slow dissection process, where are the lungs of the system, the spine, the heart. Where are the diseases? It's very easy to begin a blame game - but I agree we need to focus on looking for the cure. There is much to learn and we can help each other in that regard. In example - there is an entire generation who grew up before internet became a household utility... there are many in older generations who feel unable to compete or get jobs because it is still foreign to them. In a lot of ways they may be ahead but have been left behind in others.
The "system" is very difficult to pinpoint specifically. But I am encouraged that there appears to be more knowledge about where the flaws and abuse lie than at any other time that I can remember, and I largely credit the Internet for that.
The heart of the problem is right where OWS is at -- looking deeply and relentlessly at the world banking system. The owners of the world (that most would call the Illuminati) control/own the banks that make up the cartel of the Fed. The Fed banks control the elite banking layer of the system. The multi-national corporations fall under that. At the bottom of this pyramid are all of us wageslaves. The only thing we have going for us is that we are many, and they are few (top of the pyramid). So we have to learn how to use our collective strength effectively against this super-powerful and entrenched system. More often than not, we are not able to effectively mobilize our collective strength into an effective force for change due to a lot of infighting and disagreement about direction. Such is the by-product of a leaderless organization. But this was also the amazing thing about Occupy...that it happened spontaneously without any leadership at all. This sent a powerful message worldwide. And it got the power-elite's attention, at least initially. When it happened I could hardly believe it. Then it sorta lost its original momentum. It needs to reinvigorate itself and evolve into a more effective force for change. It is up against a worldwide domination machine that has had at least 300 years or more of slow and steady effort to achieve its goal of global domination of the financial system (and thus political control as well). Occupy is only a year old -- just a baby. But it needs to grow and learn how to peacefully fight against the monster. People are learning. They are taking action. But it is a painfully slow process that involves education and effort. It means you have to reach millions of people and get them up off the couch. It requires a time commitment from everyone, and not everyone is willing to participate at this time. Things have not gotten bad enough for enough people. 10% unemployment is not enough. When you get 25%-30% then you will see millions of people taking action in one way or another (peaceful or otherwise). Just let the whole house of cards that is currently stacked up (the worldwide debt net) come crashing down to a global collapse of the econ system, and you will see something nobody has ever witnessed before, because that collapse would never have happened before.
We live in interesting times...some of the most interesting I can ever remember. No one seems to know exactly what will happen or when, but everybody can sorta feel something is coming on.
And it doesn't feel good.
Good comment - well said - and we are looking to see the worlds biggest and worst shit storm of all of history - because the insane are in charge of the asylum.
WOW Underdog you know your stuff. If everybody broke the code like you, we wouldn't be in this situation. While you were writing all this good stuff down, my sister was watching the Kardashians.
TV is the opiate of the masses. The power-elite know they can control the sheeple by feeding them infantile drool like the Kardashians. They don't want people who can think and analyze and strategize how to loosen their deathgrip they have on us. TV used to be somewhat civilized. Slowly it has turned into a tool to dumb down humanity...to make people more animalistic than they used to be.
Tell your sister to turn the channel to C-SPAN. Better yet, have her start participating in Occupy. The movement needs every educated and determined person it can get. Another soldier for the army.
The Kardashians. Paris Hilton. Lindsay Lohan. Jerry Springer. Jersey Shore. On and on this mental wasteland goes. Why do people waste their time and destroy their brains on this shit? It is beyond me. But then that may be because I'm too old.
Those of us posting here are being labeled extreme but I think the most extreme thing you can do is allow others to take away your freedom. It is our responsibility to be the watch guards for our democracy - do people think if they don't protect it and turn a cheek that there are not people who will not try to take it from them? They will - history has proven it. If you take it for granted it will be taken from you- trust no authority to do it for you. Some people feel that it is inevitable that there is nothing they can do to prevent it... but we can save it if we simply try and stand up and say enough... it doesn't take much it just takes enough of us.
Very good.
why compete for jobs?
if I'm not needed. I'm not needed
Matt that is perfect. No one can argue with logic so pure.
That is a great attitude haha
I am sorry master
Oh you don't have to apologize, it doesn't bother me. Enough other people do better themselves and compete for good jobs. The last time I had an open position I got about 20 applications and about 15 or so went directly into the garbage. People with an attitude like yours just make my life a lot easier.
jobs should be something that needs to be done
not something people compete for
In the real world, they are both, especially good ones. If there was no competition, I would have to hire the first shmuck that applies and from my experience, only about 1 out of 4 applicants is actually capable of doing the job well.
What do you have against competition?
that's not true
you would hire someone who can do the job
what does that have to do with competition ?
But if one person can do the job better than another one, that is who I would want. Not all workers are equal. Far from it. Competition allows me to evaluate them and chose who I feel will be best. Choice is always good.
yes but the job will get done with or without me
Right, because those who don't really compete for the job end up with their applications in the trash.
don't turn them in
wanna go looking for someone
I'm not hard to find
ofcourse, I'll have to be convinced I want the job
it's funny because a few have the money
ok haha
Underdog thanks for your view on the subject. It's just frustrating to try to oppose the injustice. Then on this forum, the older people who let things get screwed up are supporting the same Bushbamney SYSTEM that led to this mess. Every other post is vote for Obama this, vote for Obama that !
Maybe the old people can vote for Bushbamney. They don't have much time left to live. VQkag2 can get away with voting for Obama and still eat thick T-bone steaks everynight till the end. If us young people vote for Bushbamney, we'll only be eating pork & beans during our last 40 years.
Not all of us older people are voting for Obamney. I haven't voted that way for many years.
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Thanks, let me add that to the long list of disasters the older people stood by and let happen.
I'm doing my part. I drive an econobox that has a small eco footprint.
i'm 57 and i haven't had a car since 1986, expressly because the environment. i moved to an area that has decent public transport. driving a car is not an option. you can delude yourself with this eco car stuff but it's just a marketing scam to sell more junk and degrade the planet.
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I think that in a lot of places in the US (most probably) it is nearly impossible to live and work without a vehicle. Add in a few kids and now you can't even get by with only a small car. Work, grocery store, bank, vacation, etc, most people need a car to do all those things.
It isn't that people don't share your attitude about the environment, a lot of us don't have much choice.
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You got a problem with me? Then let's hear it. You don't have to be a coward and talk about me behind my back.
I got a BIG problem with you. You should go to an Obama forum. Leave people who want change alone. What are you doing on the #OWS forum promoting the establishment?
Bushbamney has no place on #OWS. You're lost, now go where you belong www.barackobama.com. That's probably your employer anyway.
How about I go whever I god damn please. Who the fuck do you think you are telling me what to do? Do I know you? Have we had some exchange under a different name?
Is there some position of mine you don't like.? Speak up! I support creating a new system from the ground up, horizontally, with real direct democracy! As I understand it OWS has good anarchists working on this as we speak! Are you one of them? Gettin anywhere?
What do you object to? Stop talkin outta your ass. let's hear some specifics. Maybe a link to one my comments you object to.
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Yeah that's simplistic humor and not based on reality. I have criticised dems and Obama just fine. You have no evidenc that I shill for Obama.
You don't know the 1st thing about my positions. We have never conversed. Unless you are a sock puppet.
stop making things up. Link to a comment I will address it.
Silly childish lies. Anti dem partisan politics thats all you are!
elf3 I live well below the poverty line and for the most part I'm content with it. I'm not materialistic and have to carefully consider the price of a pair of socks myself. I have 2 part time jobs and worry that I will NOT see my social security and neither will my grandchildren if PR and their ilk have their way. The fact that your comment has been upvoted so many times seems to underscore my point that there are many of you on here that blame a whole generation (mine) for today's troubles. This stuff didn't just start a few years ago. Read the post of a guy below who thinks the older people should be on the front lines because "they don't have much longer to live anyway." Pardon me but lol. Talk about dog eat dog. That kind of thinking is the philosophy of the people you're fighting against- to hell with granny, throw her off the cliff.
I find it humorous as one generation blames the other for the problems they share. I have managed many employees over the years and have noticed a peculiar trait among most, but not all. Nearly every employee will tell me that he or she is the hardest working, etc. The opinions each holds of him/herself astound me, since they rarely have anything to do with my own evaluation of the employees.
So, one generation blames the other. Idiocy, exactly what the masters want the wage slaves to do; bicker among themselves, turn on each other, for God's sake, never concentrate on the real culprits.
The last sentence nails it. Divide and Conquer.
Well its about damn time we divide and conquer them for a change.
That's it. Time to turn the tables and wage our own offensive. This is a real war.
it is a money dispute
I don't stack up in the Manhood Department.my Looks are long gone but from my keyboard to God's Inbox-I will do whatever to be RIGHT IN FRONT&AMONG THE FIRST TO FALL BECAUSE I HATE THE BASTARDS THAT DID THIS TO US SO FUCKING MUCH
You feelings are understandable. But here's the thing. Baby boomers are not a monolithic group. There are many who have been fighting the very same things that you are for their entire adult lives. The nation is quite evenly divided on many issues, irrespective of age category. I think I can count myself as one ( a boomer) who has always been "on your side".
Many of the young boomers blamed the previous generation too. When I was a kid in the 60's, there was a slogan "Don't trust anyone over 30". Even as a child I thought that was dumb because I knew a lot of great old people. I saw how pitting the generations against each other alienated people who would otherwise be allies in the anti-war movement.
Engaging in a generational blame game is counter-productive to growing a movement. I observed the destructive effect of this dynamic 45 years ago. Of course that's just an older person giving advice and what the hell do we know :/ Divide and conquer is the 1%'s favorite game.
Thank you, letsgetreal. Nailed it.
Hey Mary. We can learn from them. Let me tell you a little story about my experience at OWS last October. My daughter and I came up from NC on her fall break from college. We slept in the park under tarps and attended all kinds of great stuff during the day.
At one meeting, we did the usual go around and introduce yourself, but with this difference: Each person was asked for a name AND a pronoun. I looked at my daughter and said 'Pronoun?' She looked at me like I was dumb as a republican, "Yeah, dad, yours is he." But as the introductions proceeded, I was shocked to find that the correspondence between pronoun and expected pronoun was minimal. There were he/shes, hes that were she, it, mood dependent pronouns, theys (for single persons), etc.... These kids are totally dismantling gender, way beyond our dreams of shared housework.
Yep. agreed.
You nailed it elf. I was getting sick of reading all the self absorbed, sanctimonious commiserating. Luckily you came along and put everything in it's correct perspective.
Where's the part where you agree?
You spent your entire, unformatted rant, makin' stuff up.
I didn't borrow a damn thing from your generation, in fact I helped pay for it, and with your aimless rant, I realize how powerful the neolibe(R)tarian influence really is. How bought by propaganda, you've become.
My own Mother warned me all the way back in the late 70s that "they" are trying to destroy the middle class.
Perhaps my greatest service in my later years, is to finally give you an accurate label as to who "they" are.
Your problem is that you will likely reject it, to your own disservice.
Now, if you would like to put those ranting accusations out there one or two at a time, I will be happy to address them.
As it is?
You appear to following the Karl Rove school of debate.
I have ONE question. It's the question of all questions we have for the older generations.
Why did the older people do NOTHING to stop this GIANT MESS from happening? (they just stood by and WATCHED and even CONTRIBUTED to all the corruption, lies, injustice. Globalization, militarism, corporate rule, debt, money in politics, etc, etc, etc, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,ETC !!! YEAR AFTER YEAR !!!)
Well,I'm 54 and I'll tell you what people my age were busy with when Bush and Cheney set the whole fucking world on fire.I know what they were doing because I was trying to organize them with absolutely NO success.Too busy to renovate a building to start a cooperative because their way of dealing with the WHOLE MESS?WORKING AS BARISTAS WHILE LIVING AT HOME WAITING FOR THEIR PARENTS TO DIE! Maximum selfishness&cowardice-SHAME!!!
The only thing that makes you think we didn't, is the propaganda put out by the neolibe(R)tarians.
Those same neolibe(R)tarians that today, squelch positive press for OWS.
The neolibe(R)tarians are not here to keep you from telling us the truth. Please set the record straight. Tell us EVERYTHING the older people did to stop this mess? Please tell us the truth. We NEED to know!
How would that help solve our problems now?
How would that help solve our problems now?
We do NOT want the older people butting in and trying to "Solve Problems" and be "The Deciders". If they were so good at "solving problems", we wouldn't be in this HUGE MESS ! They always just go back to the only "solution" they know, which is voting for the estabishment. We can all see where that has gotten us. Please forget Obamney, that old thinking is destroying us !
It is us young people who will have to suffer in the austerity hell that is OUR future, it is not YOUR future! We do not want the concessions you are willing to decide on our behalf. I asked a simple question, but egos are obviously too big to answer it and accept blame. Hubris is the affliction of your generation.
Ever heard of Kalle Lasn? How old is he again?
I quit working for the military
You think you know so much because you don't know enough to formulate questions. Come back when you know enough to learn.
The question is perfectly formulated.Your comprehension level must be too low.
I can see you like diverting discourse. If you can't stay on subject, don't undermine debate with your straw man tactics. Stop falsely discrediting those who seek the truth.
You, seek truth? LMAO hahahahah. If you have to be told that your elders put and end to segregated schools, created laws that give penalties for child abuse, provided a path for women in the work place, and enough change to fill a library, you shouldn't even be on the web. You should be back in elementary school and depending on your age, possibly a mental health facility.
Again, you think you know so much because you don't know enough to formulate questions. Come back when you know enough to learn.
gates, you are obviously frustrated by your ignorance and have trouble expressing your shallow thoughts. Your feeble ad hominem tactics will not disguise your lack of understanding.
You say: "elders put and end to segregated schools, created laws that give penalties for child abuse, provided a path for women in the work place". This proves how naive you are. The 1% do not care about these things, they are distractions. They consider them the struggles of the worthless eaters. The 1% loves guys like you. they can so easily manipulate you. While you were chasing your tail in macho struggles, the 1% were raiding the economic and political foundations of our nation.
LmAo, ok buddy.
I fought a corporation from with-in and without.
I even won a few rounds.
You?
I saw your post here after i made mine. I hope you will find it interesting.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/disrespecting-older-people-on-the-forum-and-other-/#comment-820669
There's no need to generalize about an entire generation because of them. There are those of us who understand. There are those of us who didn't rest on our laurels but struggled. There are those of us who saw this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nNvmkFShNI&feature=related and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD_amsSsg78&feature=related. We weren't all sitting around doing nothing but smoking pot as charactized by some.
Well said, and that's coming from a grandpa.
I agree with you elf. The old people just stood by and watched it all fall apart, and DID NOTHING ! Now all the sudden they have all the answers.
It's too late now ! Where were those answers when we needed them?
Thank you, MaryS. And well-said. Though I no longer post much on this forum, I do read it on occasion. Until last spring I was at this forum on a daily basis, but grew disheartened because of the lack of focus on the big picture, the in-fighting and failure by the GAs to cohesively move toward a commitment to non-violence. Coupled with Trolls and bots that were plentiful here and a lack of fresh ideas for discussion and it became obvious to me that my continued participation in this forum served no purpose. When the more senior members of this place were ridiculed and seemed to be viewed as irrelevant by some I knew it was time to go. What started as a glorious movement has become something that is, as you put it, snarky. Bless you and stay strong!
Man I wish you and GF and GK were back on a regular basis to restore some sanity that was more prevalent from the "old guard". I totally understand your reasoning. I myself left for awhile but came back, although I don't spend as much time here as I used to. The trolls and attackers seem more vitriolic than ever. Guess that might be an indicator of something, although I'm not exactly sure what. Anyway, really great to see your input here again.
Thank you Underdog
You mean push this into Obamaland a bit further? :)
GF you could at least discuss things with (I believe shes campaigning now for Obama. Better than doing nothing I guess, but still supporting the status quo nevertheless).
GK was a blind loon.
I am saying that these people were civilized and knew how to engage in civilized debate instead of all the barbaric vitriol, hatred, name-calling, insulting, childish, this-is-how-I-get-my-rocks-off, stench that gets shoved around here now.
Hey ThunderclapNewman! I wondered what happened to you. Now I understand. Your post above could just as well have been written by me, as your sentiment is where my thoughts have been on several occasions.
I am currently at a real crossroads myself. I applaud you for having the courage to come to your decision. It takes guts to recognize the realities you identified and act accordingly. You saw...I'm sure, what is becoming increasingly obvious to me. Much to the dismay of some, I think its healthy to question the integrity and motives of this vehicle we call 'Occupy'. That's not to say I don't have hope...because I do. Hopefully its just growing pains with OWS, as all movements go through, and the oligarchs will indeed be exposed.
Are you currently posting anything on another forum?
I wish you much peace, love and light...and wish to tell you that I enjoyed and will never forget our inspirational song sharing on OWS's transcendental musical thread!
Be safe, be well.
Hi MaryS - those times at the thread you mention were a most welcome break from the intensity of the work done here and it is a pleasant thing to recall. GirlFriday started that thread. Is she around any more? GypsyKing? I see that DKAToday and some of the others like yourself have kept at it here. As for me, I battle elsewhere, though not in any on-line forum. But enough about that. As I wrote earlier, I sign in here and read articles and postings. I remain hopeful that this movement will find a way to bring facts and the light of hope for a better world into reality. Bless you and all who fight the good fight here.
Hey - TCN - good to see you stopping by. GK has taken a break from the forum but I expect to see him return. GF (?) she had business to take care of and her PC had died - I hope to see her return - love for everyone to be here for the anniversary.
Thanks DK. Good to know you're still here kickin' some butt! Bless you and all the "bigger picture" folks here.
Thanks - I need to refocus and rededicate from time to time as some of the toxic BS that is posted by movement attackers can get me seriously pissed off at times. Thank God there are so many good people here to help put down the BS. I took most of yesterday off to reflect and refocus. So - how you doin?
I'm well, DK. Thanks. Time away from the "firing lines" for a little R&R is most beneficial. The intensity gets to be too much sometimes and when we're so passionately involved, staying away can be as difficult and challenging as remaining in the thick of things. Be well and stay strong, all!
Hey before you go - GirlFriday stopped in today. One of her comments is on the best comment board already. Just like old times.
Keep-on Keeping-on.
I didn't mean to intrude on your conversation with MaryS, but it is actually Renneye here. I just got so excited when I saw you, I thought I would respond.
Looks like DKA has the inside info on the other members below.
Hmmm....."I battle elsewhere". Now I'm really intrigued!
Peace
Renneye, it's good to see you're stilll here. You, MaryS, DKAToday Underdog, Gypsy, fireball GirlFriday and some others gave me hope that we might get things headed tward real change in a unified, peaceful way.
I'm 66 heading towards 67 years old and I have been on the receiving end I think of what Mary speaks of. I have a few things to say though in defense of those who make those very attacks. Let me talk a bit about myself. I went through the Vietnam years, the Black Panther Years, the black uprising years mainly very angry with my parent's generation, the so called "greatest generation". They had accepted stuff like Social Security and other bribes. They waged what was called a war for democracy but was an imperialist war like all the others, at least as far as the Western allies and Axis went. They didn't make the revolution that many of them thought in their youths were around the corner. Now they were foisting their damned peace parades and peace picnics on my generation. What the hell was this? Did they think this was some sort of game? Along with other like minded young people I was too distracted and angry to become a success and ended up drafted to boot. We were the ones who shouted "One side's right one side's wrong we're on the side of the VietCong" and "Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh NLF is gonna win." When A peace democrat like Bella Abzug mounted the stage at a peace picnic we chanted "bullshit bullshit bullshit." Sometimes when we marched you could hear the tinkling of shattering windows. Shit, this wasn't a love in or a game our lives, our futures were at stake. Couldn't these peace people feel the righteousness of the rebellions that swept the ghettos? (I'm not black btw). Fuck them! The truth was though that objectively they and us and the Weather Underground too were all part of the same thing. The peace people called us infiltrators, provocateurs, agents. Fact is those classes of cops were ubiquitous in all the factions and depending on his role each said things the others didn't. Yes there were peace picnic agents and window trashing agents too. I had a couple of arrests, police beatings and tear gassings in my experience and had no patience for patience.
I never grew out of my troublemaker mindset and never became a success as it is defined most generally.
When I urge people to vote against the racist/fascists it's not because I believe that the system can make things much better and not because i don't care about other countries. Damn, politics is all about lying and compromising and guess what? You're in the world of politics. Let me give you a glaring example from the other side. Sheldon Adelson financed a video for Newt Gingrich that trashed Mitt Romney as a vulture capitalist who ruined working people's lives. Now he's financing Romney and Newt is endorsing Romney. I don't think these vampires love each other. I think they regard the situation as being serious and Adelson for instance is investing not in what he thinks is perfect but what he understands is advancing his interests. So, i make my suggestions out of love for you real Occupiers and for young people who are faced with a screwed up world like my own children, grandchildren and step children do because my generation did not make the revolution. I don't blame you for being angry with me and my peers. Just please keep your eyes on the prize. It's not love, it's not marriage it's war or in another word it's politics.
The art of the possible. Vote and rebel. Sometimes to vote is part of rebelling.
this whole thing about old people seems to be one more distraction. i am almost as old as you and saw the 60's first hand. seems to me that the civil rights movement was mostly nonviolent and mostly successful (certainly we still have a long way to go). middle america watched black people being beaten and heard about people being killed and were finally disgusted enough to force change in the system. i agree that voting can be a part of rebeling and there are many ways to be effective in creating change. violence is not one of them. breaking windows and burning cars will not win over the people we need to reach - it will only move too many to the side of the right.
Maybe you don't remember the old slogan "don't trust anyone over thirty." I'm not going to condemn the young people who are furious with their situation and who hate the cops to boot.
i remember it well - we did and said lots of stupid things don't you think?i am not condemning anyone but it is a misunderstanding of history and our situation to blame old people or hate the cops or the prison guards or the soldiers. i assume you know anarchist theory on this subject. the system is the problem and it seeks out any who will do it's bidding and if it can't find anyone it will starve all until someone will become the overseer. in the moment i also might hit back at the cop who is beating me but that does not change the point that it is a bad tactic at this time and place. we probably agree on most of what is happening in this country and also agree on where we should be heading. i also think this debate among two old guys can be helpful - we have seen a lot of shit go down - that should make us wiser than when we were 20. i would hope it also makes us wiser than most who are 20 now.
"it is a misunderstanding of history and our situation to blame old people or hate the cops or the prison guards or the soldiers."
I can see you were a peace picnic person.
you know nothing about me so let's just debate the topic - if you think it is a good idea to blame cops and try to fight against them i disagree. you are going to get bloody and set the movement back. if you don't fight back you will probably get bloody anyway
The elites depend on the people with guns to keep them in power. That's why we want the cops on our side.
agreed - it is also true that they are us they just don't always know it. i know from the 60's what the fbi and the commanders told the cops about the people fighting against the system. they tried to brainwash them and it works very often
It's inevitable that the young people re going to hate the cops. Look what the cops do to them. I'm not urging anyone to go get his head bashed in I'm just not blaming or accusing anyone for really really not liking cops.
neither am i but my statement still is correct. the kids who put the flowers in the guns of the soldiers had the best idea. we have to win them over since we are not going to win over the rulers. we are not going to beat them with violence since that is what they are good at. look at all the places where the soldiers refused to fire on the people - china had to bring in troops from hundreds of miles away in order to get them to shoot. we are all demonizing the other - gook or spic or cop, commie or peacenik. this is not going to help.
"we are all demonizing the other - gook or spic or cop," Sorry being a cop is a voluntary situation and anyone naive enough to join that gang thinking he or she is serving some higher good soon learns that that wasn't the case - then the choice becomes to give up this good spot as a gangster and try to find some other work that probably won't be so well rewarded, or stay in the gang and act like a gangster. BTW I was one of these anti Vietnam war GI's don't get me started.ps- here are the cops doing what they do. I don't know what this poor white woman did to piss them off so, can't imagine. http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/woman-allegedly-slammed-to-ground-by-lapd-officers-17114792
does your thinking apply to soldiers also - should the anti war protesters spit on the returning vets. attack them and scream "babykiller" at them? your thinking can be applied to you also vietnam vet - my friend spent time in prison - another went to canada they (both dead) would have told you to do the same. i have seen enough police brutality in my lifetime - don't need to watch anymore - it will not change my opinion. so we disagree again - your anger while understandable is misdirected. it is not helping to move us in the right direction. i think the war resistoers league has the right idea - "History tells us that the absence of war is not the presence of peace. We have seen time and time again that violence does not end when you put down the gun, that war is not over when you declare a ceasefire. We understand that there are interwoven systems of domination and exploitation at the roots of inequality and injustice, and that to “remove all causes of war” we must collaborate and stand in solidarity with oppressed people across the globe. We are committed to building a broad-based movement against war in all its multiple forms. We go deeper than that. Our philosophy of revolutionary nonviolence demands change at the very roots of our society. We believe in the transformative power of nonviolent action in our communities, in our world, and in ourselves. We invite you to walk this path with us, away from all forms of militarism and oppression and towards a world based on equality and justice.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/disrespecting-older-people-on-the-forum-and-other-/#comment-822254
"does your thinking apply to soldiers also - should the anti war protesters spit on the returning vets. attack them and scream "babykiller" at them?" i regret some things in my life mistakes and wrong turns i did. One was to not go to Canada. As things did turn out I never saw combat but I am ashamed to have worn the uniform of a genocidal army and ashamed to have put myself forward as one of those heroic "anti war GIs." Vietnam era soldiers deserved all the respect and love that German soldiers who fought in Greece or Russia or who guarded a concentration camp deserved and that includes myself.
well i am with you here - the war resisters league claims to support anyone who has picked up a gun to fight for their country right or wrong. that make sense to me - what i do not understand is how the cops are different. we don't need to beat it to death. i am sure we are on the same side in most ways but i cannot see what you are thinking here - not the first time and won't be the last i imagine.
I think it's a shame that the myth about masses spitting on returning Vietnam vets is just that- a myth. I among others allowed myself s an "anti war GI" to be used to sell the idea of the poor poor Vietnam soldier- poor my ass. You should have heard the laughter and fun had about shooting off the arms of "gooks" rape, etc. As for cops you have to be a bit careful with them- they are armed and usually have the backing of the state and media regardless of what they do to a dissident.
once again we agree
I heard about plenty of benefits for veterans
that's causes people to enlist
yea like their suicide rate is really tops
war is hell
protesters should not spit on vets
nor should vets be considered heroes
Well the story of returning GIs being spat upon is one of those untrue urban myths - it might have happened once or maybe twice if at all. To my way of thinking a grown person should not be shielded from the consequences of his actions - like invading an impoverished country that never harmed his own. Shouting and spitting might have been appropriate. What would have been appropriate for a returning soldier in Hitler's army? Flowers? Candies? Mercy sex? tell me.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I believe in every protest there are those who fall into a similar pattern. You have probably seen the the documentary "The Weather Underground" (and may have been part of it for all I know). It is one of my favorite documentaries ever and I even wrote Mark Rudd after I saw it because of his incredibly humble and moving statement at the end. Everyone should see it. ...Just a few statements lifted off the internet about them, the first from Bill Ayers: "We did carry out symbolic acts of extreme vandalism directed at monuments to war and racism, and the attacks on property, never on people, were meant to respect human life and convey outrage and determination to end the Vietnam war.... The responsibility for the risks we posed to others in some of our most extreme actions in those underground years never leaves my thoughts for long. The antiwar movement in all its commitment, all its sacrifice and determination, could not stop the violence unleashed against Vietnam. And therein lies cause for real regret."[145] Brian Flanagan has expressed regret for his actions during the Weatherman years, and compared the group's activities to terrorism. Flanagan said: "When you feel that you have right on your side, you can do some pretty horrific things."[146] Mark Rudd, now a teacher of mathematics at Central New Mexico Community College, has said he has "mixed feelings" and feelings of "guilt and shame." "These are things I am not proud of, and I find it hard to speak publicly about them and to tease out what was right from what was wrong. I think that part of the Weatherman phenomenon that was right was our understanding of what the position of the United States is in the world. It was this knowledge that we just couldn't handle; it was too big. We didn't know what to do. In a way I still don't know what to do with this knowledge. I don't know what needs to be done now, and it's still eating away at me just as it did 30 years ago".- ...... I think not everyone from the original WU would express these sentiments. But this is what I admire- people who change and can admit they were wrong. I love people who have an open mind and who aren't so convinced that they're right at any given moment. ...If you're saying we didn't do anything back then,I would have to disagree. The war protestors made their mistakes but they paved the way for mainstream America to finally join them and ended the war. Maybe that is what will happen here. I agree with what you say, "vote AND rebel."
what i think is important in this discussion is that the violence of the 60's was not helpful and it will not be helpful this time around. the violence by the vietcong is one thing - the violence on mainstreet in small town usa will only push many in the middle away.
http://www.detroits-great-rebellion.com/Kerner-Report---The-Great-Rebellion.html
i am well aware of this history - again it is one thing for the oppressed to rebel and another for middle class white boys to smash windows in starbucks. are we debating who was more helpful - king or malcolm? i am not pacifist but if you are making the case for violence within the ows movement i want what you are smoking - and if you are not making that case i may want what you are smoking anyway!
King and Malcolm each had a role to play. Malcolm never led a rebellion as far as i know. The rebellions were spontaneous and justified and they were a part of the death of official white supremacy and brought about many programs that for a time helped poor people. I'm not counter posing MLK to Malcolm or to the rebellions. All were a part of one movement for human dignity.
I absolutely am with you. I can't think of any protest ever that didn't involve violence one way or the other and that makes me sad. But we should continue to stand for nonviolence as far as possible.
the violence in this country is mostly ego gratification - we need to know what we are doing and the old people have the experience. i saw many my age 62 and older in the park in nyc. they had lots of wisdom - well some! you can see in syria what is happening - if the nonviolent movement (in that country) had been supported it would have won - eventually. i think that is often why the west likes to send arms!
"The Revolution is Over - Long Live the Revolution !", by Bretigne Shaffer :
Good post Mary & I think that the contents of this short article will speak to you.
fiat justiitia ruat caelum ...
Great post, MaryS. Of my favorite posters, some are in their twenties and thirties and some are maybe over 60. It's total b.s. to classify people by age. Age means nothing. For me it's where's your heart?
You're so right, that counts for a lot. And genius doesn't equal wisdom.
For me, the richness of Experience equals WISDOM. I've had quite a few experiences, some good, some bad, wide variety, and all in all, I'll repeat.
As human being, I got some good ideas, and they have served me well through the years. It's begins with Love and ends as we realize finally what that really meant. A full and complete experience. These words can never tell that mystery. The true beauty is hidden there.
I get it Mary. Every one of deserves respect. It's one I learned early in life and never forgot, and, in fact, my appreciation of that principle, RESPECT, only deepened And these lines when respect is broken are clear and for good reason. We need this structure to be able to write honestly and try to learn from one another. It's an environment that many times doesn't exist in this forum. It's always at a loss. Ideas need an incubator and not blender/chopper. All I ever want is for people to learn. I set an example and I can only hope others get it. Truth only comes through learning, examining evidence, considering sources, and wanting that more than what our wishes may be. It's the kind of open mind we can have when our brains don't fall out, they actually get used more.
Good Luck MaryS!!!
COME Together NOW
Shine ON!
That's a great quote.
Exactly. :)
seems to me that the people in this country who are 60 changed the world! the 60's and early 70's gave us an end to black people drinking from different water fountains, opened up the political system and gave women the opening to become doctors and lawyers instead of nurses and teachers. the era of the 60's changed the world - i hope the youngsters of today can do the same.
I think they can.
i hope you are right - we will see. i feel more like gramsci - he said, "I’m a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will.
Wow. Spot on lady. America has developed into a culture that does not value it's elderly. Other cultures recognize what experience and life knowledge can bring to a community. Progressive OWS people have shown a real appreciation for all people.
When people on this forum exhibit this inferior trait I immediately assume they are not really OWS people. I haven't met anyone like that on the streets.
Well said. We need each other. We cannot succeed if we continue drawing lines, and finding reasons for exclusion.
Thanks for this great post
Thanks. You're always so positive. We need people like you to balance out the more melancholy types amongst us. You're so right about this culture devaluing elders ALTHOUGH I would not refer to myself as elderly. I was talking to my kids about this one day and how in certain Asian cultures people chew the elders' food for them. They told me not to get any ideas. ;)
LOL. I don't really feel elderly either but I will be 50 in 6 months and I have a daughter in college so these angry people attacking elderly are young enough so that I am elderly.
hmm! imagine that.
Always respect your elders. Most of them have had a lot of experience. You can always learn a lot from old people if you just listen.
the media tells up what our issues are
Pink Floyd - Welcome To The Machine
plenty over forty with out a dependable job
they get told this minimum wage jobs are supposed to be for teen agers
this forum hasn't been dissing older people
want disappointed
try to get a job from a younger boss
Nobody puts it any better than you Mary................:)
Thanks for being lucid.
Thanks shooz. I'm a little pissed. I think I'll go walk my dogs now.:)
I find little to disagree with in your thread opener.
Let detractors of your statement beware..........................:)
Truthfully I don't like it that I wrote a rant while angry but I guess that's when people write rants. Just getting my own tiny taste of discrimination doesn't feel good but it's nothing like the discrimination other populations endure every day of their lives. thanx for the support. I think most people here know I love OWS and will always support it to my dying day.
A lot of what you are angry about was engineered by propagandists in the first place.
I watched in dismay as some of my fellow union members adopted the very mindset that would destroy unions.
That propaganda is some powerful stuff, and it permeates almost everything.
Check out my response to the elf.
We don't know what we don't know. That goes for the younger generations of a movement as well.
At least the older generation is not being burned at the stake for their oral histories as they used to be.
Consider OWS is not what you think it is, and many of those posting here are not what they say they are nor do they intend anything but the effect on you posted.
The 1% is determined to have their way with this country,and this planet.Therefore,nonviolent tactics will have to become more dangerous,and these actions are the responsibility of older people.Not because older people are more committed than younger ones,but because if and when nonviolent protest requires protesters to risk their lives,it is stupid to lose someone who has 3-4 decades more to live when there are people available who are likely to live only another 15-20 years due to their age.The 1% and their tools are savage,brutal monsters and they are playing for keeps.Anybody who believes that standing up to the 1% will not result in extreme brutality to protesters eventually is living in a dream.
Sounds like you recommend the young people hang back and be more willing to sacrifice the old then totally commit to a cause themselves? You seem to be dividing society up based on your view of people's worth measured in years.
The young will benefit far longer from any changes that come. Maybe they should risk more because they stand to get more.
The longer a person can live,the longer they can resist the diabolic plans of the 1%-that is the reason I say that.I am completely aware that the young #OWS know their lives are in danger. I went to Zucotti last year and asked them myself.As many as I could, with the same answer EVERY TIME-"Of course we are willing to give our lives in this fight-why are you even asking that question,you retarded old bag." This is why I believe in #OWS-the youth who are the heart of it have gone in with eyes wide open and I believe they will NEVER STEP OFF.Of course I will not either-but I trust Young #OWS to continue refusing to step off 20 years from now,when I won't even be alive.
Whose life is in danger?
When Capitalists want to make money,anyone who gets in the way is in danger.Don't kid yourself-there is NOTHING they won't do to remove anybody or anything that stands between them and profit.
I think you may be placing too much emphasis on multinational corporations in your reference to yourself instead of also including all the very small business owners.
I agree. But I really don't think that OWS, as currently configured, is really endangering any profits. I would say at least 95% of Americans don't even realize it is something that is ongoing.
the continuity is like the flow of a river
I think there has been brutality against OWS protesters, (we've won some court cases) and I think there will be more. Unfortunately if we want to change the excessive police tactics, and gain the sympathy of the general complacent population it is effective to do so.
But I do not support that we be violent! Nor do I support the separation of protesters by age to protect those who have longer to live.
Sorry. Epic fail!
You have forgotten abt the Rabbit Hole-I wonder how many of your friends have died or disappeared under mysterious circumstances?A few of mine have.Have you ever been detained and questioned by people who refused to identify themselves?I have had experiences like that.What I am talking about is stuff that happened 30 years ago-when the 1% was not afraid of anarchists.They are dangerous-but you guys have not clicked on what I mean by "dangerous nonviolent tactics"-I do not think it a good idea to be more specific in a forum of this type.
be specific
not appropriate in this forum-but it is nonviolent-see you on Wall St when #OWS turns 1 yr old
why is better
explicative are empty expressions of frustration
Well if it's not a good idea to discuss then let's not.
Good luck to you and all your good (non violent) efforts.
Peace & Solidarity
Hear HERE Hear HERE - very well said Mary very well said.
Thanks for the heres and hears :).
Hey - I like the post. {:-])
So now anyone over 40 has to prove to OWS that they are down with? What?
"From it’s inception OWS grew into something more than it’s originators intended. SO WHAT? It is what it is."
Can you elaborate on this part?
The movement was started by anarchists, right? What percentage of it's supporters are anarchists or even know what anarchy is? Yet they're out there. The vets are out there. We're united around some common goals at least. The last few days all this moaning and groaning about the political talk but this is probably the most important election I have or ever will see in my lifetime. It's crucial. Do you not think the outcome will have an impact on the movement? I do. I would just like to see some unity and acknowledgment that even though we are diverse, we're all important.
Well one thing is for sure, when it was more anarchist, down with this clown show, up with something new, the numbers were great.
After a few months of Fox bashing and MSNBC playing pro Dem spots, the media managed to turn it into another L vsR thing in the minds of average Americans. That was very damaging to growth.
People are starving for something new. And most like to sleep in their beds, not the park.
Getting to involved with L vs R in the media, and the MUST have a park thing, were very bad. VERY bad, in my opinion.
Too much hesitation when the frying pan was hot. It was burning hot, and we kind of stuck it in the freezer.
I dont think this election is crucial at all, because Obama has proven to be a good president (bombs still dropping, no banking reform). its going to be another 4 shitty years, worse than these last four, regardless of what side of teh beast gets the most control.
A net loss. Depends on the size, but a net loss regardless.
In the meantime we can get our asses in gear and make changes in the electoral system. I believe people are ready for it, based on the size of OWS and independent voters if nothing else. The next four years may be shitty but not half as shitty as if that clown show at the RNC gets voted in. I know there are many here that see no difference but I can't agree.
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twinkle - I have no idea why you got down voted on the comment.
twinkle - I have no idea why you got down voted on the comment.
I've noticed someone's been doing some down voting on ZD's comments, almost always for no good reason I can see.
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Yeah. I bumped you up a few times on our lively Clinton exchange yesterday. For some reason someone down voted most your comments to me.
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placement ?
I never thought of that. I have noticed it can sometimes be used to an advantage, so maybe.
Par for the course Zen is very outspoken and he pulls no punches - He is often attacked by forum attackers. It was Mary's comment that I was making reference to.
It's because I'm such a renegade / trouble maker. Let them have their fun.
OH - Yes - YOU ARE - oh such a trouble maker Mary - what are we to do with you when people come to visit.........{:-])
Put me on the "bad" list I suppose. OK I'm going to bed. You all did pretty good with my little meltdown. And some came and proved it true, what more could I ask for. Good night.
Good night you little trouble maker you. {:-]) Dream of making more of the same kind of trouble - on a regular basis.
Shit, you're right. Sorry.
No prob - picking up on a conversation on these threads can be a little difficult at times.
Its going to be a huge net loss regardless who gets into the POTUS, because they are ALL BOUGHT.
Im not chasing my tail with Rs and Ds. That shit is for the complacent. Its the easy way out.
Neither party is going to serve the people again. They havent for decades. A few crumbs here and there, and everyone thinks they are close. Its very sad.
the republicans claims their platform is less government
is that not anarchy ?
They lie, Matt. they only want less government when it suits them.
there's money to be made from government
Campaign funding miniscule compared to government budget
It looks like Obama will get by because Wall Street has made money all along.The one most reliable indicator of whether or not the incumbent POTUS stays in is whether WS posts a gain during his term or not.The Street has made acres of dough and no prosecutions,so Obama,in spite of stiff opposition will probably remain.So we go not with a bang but a whimper.
But Trashy One, please read my palm too. If the Republigarbagecans (there's a $1,000 reward being offered on this site for most original and insulting reference to the GOP) win, what will happen to our beloved left?
And if the demobamacrats win will the repukicans repukicate Rush Limbaugh and move to the center? What would that look like? Would there be a renewal of rightist terror, militia style? It's so hard for mere mortals to see the future. Antworten auf Deutsch wenn Sie sind Deutsch Professor wie jemand sagt.
Anarchy does respect government records of land and resource ownership ?
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Organize. Anarchy. What?
Anarchy is the opposite of hierarchy, not the opposite of organization.
It simply means that all the elements in a system are of equal importance. This could even be viewed as a special case of hierarchy when all the elements are on the same plane. Also, it must be said that anarchy is much harder to achieve than hierarchy. As soon as one element is "stronger" than another you have hierarchy. As such, anarchy requires much more organization than hierarchy if it is to survive in a stable state. Most anarchies tend to quickly become hierarchies.
As a crud example, let us say that we want to purchase 10 t-shirts and that we will organize them by color. Our hierarchy will be defined by the number of t-shirts per color. So, 5 black t-shirts will be on the top of the hierarchic pyramid while 3 white shirts might be in the middle, and 2 red t-shirts would be at the bottom.
Now, imagine that we tell 2 people to go in the store and purchase 5 t-shirts each at random, i.e. in a chaotic fashion. Most likely, they will not have bought 10 t-shirts each with a different color which would be our only true anarchic setup. Most likely, some colors will be duplicated. It becomes evident that they need to organize their efforts if they want to make sure that no colors are duplicated. So, buyer one might say he's going to buy black, white, red, blue, green, while buyer two buys, orange, yellow, gray, purple, and pink. The must decide this (organize) in advance.
So, you see, anarchy requires a lot of organization if it is to remain stable. In the case of politics, I would say this organization would have to be so high that it would implode the system itself. It's easy to have an hierarchy. You only need a person higher up, a president. You can add other people, but a single president is already enough. If we want perfect anarchy in which all people are equally powerful, then we need extreme organization. It's basically impossible. We can only tend towards anarchy by using organizational structures like direct democracy, but, in the end, there are some people making more decisions than others in Occupy. Still, it's very useful to attenuate power peeks and to distribute power more evenly.
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Probably not :). Hey when you're right you're right. We're pretty tough old buzzards too.
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