Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: disaster in the middle east

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 20, 2012, 11:52 a.m. EST by mideast (506)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

there might be a truce today!
disaster in the middle east


Bibi's strategy may be working!
disaster in the middle east


The invasion that was never going to happen will not happen!
disaster in the middle east


Hamas may have to stop shooting rockets from Gaza civilian areas into Israel! disaster in the middle east


Hamas my have to acknowledge Israel has the right to exist!
disaster in the middle east


169 Comments

169 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 6 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

I admit I haven't followed the conflict enough over the years to give an informed opinion but thought this was interesting.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Those maps tell a very important story. Thanks, gnomunny. Maybe some of the people here will actually open the link.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Thanks, bw. There's a lot on that page worth looking into, imo.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

I agree. It's obviously scary to a lot of people to face the truth, but good god, isn't it time?

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yes it is, and as we all know, truth is sometimes hard to face. This link is WAY down the page, but I hope most will make it far enough to at least give it a look-see.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Me too. It tells a lot. And, just for the record, a person can always go to the library and take out an atlas from, say, the 1930's, and turn to the Middle East, and, oh my gosh, see Palestine.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You know what, bw? I just did exactly that. I went to my trusty, dusty bookshelf, pulled out 'Collier's World Atlas and Gazetteer' copyright 1936, and . . . umm, lemme see . . . yep. Page 100. 'Palestine, Syria, and Trans-Jordan.'

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Something else, right? And, that's very cool that you have such an old atlas in the house.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I love books. I'd call myself a collector if I had the funds to actively buy, but I pick them up when I get the chance. This may be a bit off-topic, but I have a Webster's from 1938 with a color plate entitled 'Plants of great commercial value.' One of the plants pictured is, of course, hemp. My mom bought me that one specifically because of that plate. She had a great sense of humor.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

That is too funny. Thanks for making me laugh.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Can you scan that page and load it up onto this site as a top post? Thats some good hard evidence that this issue is very deep.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Here you go hc. Not sure what to do with it, so use it as you see fit.

http://s1302.beta.photobucket.com/user/JacquesDeRipa/media/Palestine1938.jpg.html

Hope I did that right.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yes I could. It may take little me a while though. I'll try to do it this evening. I've been on my sister's laptop these last few days, so I'll have to hook the desktop back up. The power supply failed and I just got it swapped out.

[+] -8 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

whatreallyhappened.com?????

FABULOUS website. ROFL.

Maybe some of the people here will actually go to the home page and check out the source.

Maybe some people here actually know that the word "Palestine" on those ancient maps is like the word "Europa" on ancient maps. It represents a "land" or "region"....not an individual STATE or country. (I'd be happy to post an ancient map spelling Europe this way to prove I'm not using a reference to some planetary moon)

Maybe some people here actually HAVE followed the conflict over the years and researched it's PAST and history and use such things when they post their informed opinions?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Oh, so you know so much, huh? Go ahead find us some decent maps of Palestine. Why don't you just find an atlas from the 1930's? Too simple for ya?

[+] -5 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

And an atlas from the 1930's "proves" what about the ancient land called Palestine? I didn't say the maps weren't accurate, I'm saying that you're reading them with modern, biased eyes and not historical, fact based ones.

"It is from the term "Philistines" that the name "Palestinians" has been taken. Actually, the ancient Philistines and modern Palestinians have something in common: both are invaders from other lands! That is precisely the meaning of their name, that is not an ethnic denomination but an adjective applied to them: Peleshet, from the verb "pelesh", "dividers", "penetrators" or "invaders". The Philistines were a confederation of non-Semitic peoples coming from Crete, the Aegean Islands and Asia Minor, also known as "Sea Peoples".

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm

"For about two thousand years the name Palestine has been used internationally for the lands on both sides of the Jordan River... The name Palestine will here be used...to refer to the area from southern Syria (the Beqa Valley) to Egypt and the Sinai, and from the Mediterranean to the Arabian desert."

"The Greek historian Herodotus called Cisjordan [the land west of the Jordan River] the Palestinian Syria or sometimes only Palaestina. Thus, there is a tradition from at least the fifth century B.C. for the use of this name..."

"Another well-known name for Palestine, which is the most common one in the Bible, is Canaan. The earliest known reference to this name, read as 'Canaanites', is in a letter from [the kingdom of] Mari (on the Euphrates) [see 700 mile radius map] to Iasmah-Adad from the eighteenth century B.C... The letter does not give any information about the territory of these Canaanites... In many Egyptian texts Canaan refers to southern Syria and Palestine..."

"The Sinai peninsula is not part of Palestine, but because of its geographical location between Egypt proper and Palestine it has a place in a history of Palestine."

Gosta W. Ahlstrom, The History of Ancient Palestine, 1993

"The Philistine menace put Israelite survival into constant jeopardy at the time of the judges. The Philistines were one of the 'Peoples of the Sea' which had invaded the Fertile Crescent from the north, along the coast of Anatolia, and descended through Syria and Canaan all the way to Egypt...In addition to them, a people called the Tjeker or Tjekel, but belonging to the same 'Peoples of the Sea', settled along the coast of Dor in the northern Sharon."

Hanoch Reviv, "The Canaanite and Israelite Periods (3200-332 B.C.)," A History of Israel and the Holy Land, p. 67, G.G. The Jerusalem Publishing House Ltd., 2001

"Along the southern coast, from Gaza to Mount Carmel, enclaves of the Philistines and Teukrians (now partly Semitized) maintained a firm hold of the broad coastal plains and, as the Egyptians had done before them, exercised a tentative but preemptive influence over the inland mountains. In response to the Philistine presence, Israel and Judah in the uplands were moving toward the creation of a state."

Donald B. Redford, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, p. 298, Princeton University Press, 1992

"The Hebrew-Philistine rivalry for the possession of the land provided the occasion for the creation of the Hebrew monarchy... Saul's anointment (c. 1020 B.C.) as the first king was tantamount to a challenge to Philistine suzerainty."

Philip K. Hitti, The Near East in History, p. 96, D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc., 1961

"With most of Transjordan and the central hills of Cisjordan [land west of the Jordan river] north of the Jebusite city state of Jerusalem under his control, Saul had created a territorial state that the greater Palestinian region had never seen before. Saul can therefore be regarded as the first state-builder in Palestine."

Gosta W. Ahlstrom, The History of Ancient Palestine, p. 449, Sheffield Academic Press, 1993

"The real founder of the monarchy was David (c. 1004 - 960 B.C.)... David inaugurated a series of campaigns which lifted the Philistine yoke from Hebrew necks, brought Edom, Moab and Ammon under his rule and what is more amazing, netted him Aramaean Hollow Syria [Aram]... His conquest of Edom brought under his control the great trade route between Syria and Arabia."

Philip K. Hitti, History of Syria, p. 187, Macmillan & Co. LTD., 1951

"The Hittite kingdom went out of existence around 1200 B.C. Egypt's rule over Palestine ended sometime in the mid-twelfth century B.C. and was itself split into two kingdoms... Their 'successors' in Palestine, the Philistines, had filled the power gap for a short time, until David put an end to their political and economic hegemony... David's kingdom, was, however, short-lived. It dissolved naturally when Solomon died."

Gosta W. Ahlstrom, The History of Ancient Palestine, p. 487-488, Sheffield Academic Press, 1993

Donald B. Redford, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, p. 298, Princeton University Press, 1992

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Very good, Betsy, you uncovered the fact that the history of the region is complex. I know all about that history, thanks. And, can you take a peek at an atlas from, say, the 1930's and tell me what it says? It says Palestine.

In the end, however, none of that matters. What matters is that human rights are being violated and an occupation is taking place. There is no tit for tat here. No one needs to prove anything, just simply end the suffering and occupation.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

"Betsy" is now using all of "her" supposedly nonexistant bots and/or sock puppets to vote down all my comments again. Just saying.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

I voted you up GK, lol. Points don't matter, but the info sure does. My guess would be that Betsy is here all on her own. I don't think she has sock puppets, but that is just my guess. I think she honestly believes the crazy stuff she spews here.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks, it's all good. I'll be back, but I have to attend to my blog. It's going great guns, and I need to finish some posts I'm working on, etc.

I love your stuff here, and you're so patient! You have a lot more of that than I do. LOL

See ya around.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Just thought I'd add . . . no, aggragate points don't matter, but manipulating the "best comment of the day," with bots and/or sock puppets does, because that channels the dialogue in certain pre-determined directions.

That has been going on here for a very long time.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

I guess that matters, but think, how would that feel to see your comment in BCT knowing that you voted it up yourself? I would think it feels like shit. And, anyway, usually the good folks sweep in and vote 'em out.

Also, I think it is really hard for the moderators to know who is doing that sort of thing so you just have to go with the flow.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I agree about the moderators. They can't possibly keep a handle on all that suff, but there are people who don't feel like shit when they bomb civilian populations, much less consistantly vote themselves up, and others down on a forum.

But, you're right, when here you just have to go with the flow. Lately it has seemed more like white water rapids though. I wish I could harness all the frustration on this forum. It could light New York for a week. I find that I need to back off a little these days and contemplate.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

This is nothing compared to 4 months ago or so. I don't know what to tell you except that I come here mainly to express my own point of view. I don't really care about the rest of the b.s. It's an open forum and there is room for everyone who follows the rules.

Getting back to BR. She follows the rules. She doesn't agree with OWS, but she follows the rules. That is why she has like negative 350 points and she sticks around anyway because, in her mind, she has something to say. I'm fine with that.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

I don't know if we're getting back to BR or to b.s, - Things are not always what they seem.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

GK, you are too much. Did I say you had a crystal ball? No. I said no one has a crystal ball. We don't know who any of the people on here are. I'm not as worried as you are, sorry, and you're not going to make me worried. And, you are not out of my good graces. That is ridiculous.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Fine, if I misinterpreted you, then I then I will delete that response.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

And no one has a crystal ball, so you have to let it go to some extent if you want to be here.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 1 year ago

Hi GK, may I say this, " with the up and down votes ..( which have no value in my opinion, at least none on here), a suggestion would be, - to have only up votes available.. if you like someones comment give them an upvote.. if you don't like the comment ..they don't get the up vote.. this up and down simply subtracts all the votes and the viewer really doesn't have a clue how much interest was truly shown in a particular comment.. " anyway .. sorry to interupt your conversation with BW.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

No apology necessary. I really don't care about the votes one way or another. What I do care about are the methods that are used to disrupt, aggitate, distract and undermine the conversation here. A LOT of that goes on - a lot more than perhaps most people are aware.

The preception of this movement, on the part of Ma and Pa Kettle in Omaha, has a real influence on our effectiveness. To be able to manipulate that impression is power. I'm not so cool with that.

Having said that, I think your suggestion seems valid to me, although I have nothing to do with such decisions.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 1 year ago

You are Abbsolutely right GK, it is the civil discourse on this forum that is of the highest priority. We all really need to learn to control ourselves and behave respectfully.. and I am not saying that in anyway to be negative.. but positive. If we want to reach any sort of improvement in the world we live, we simply must begin with our own actions.

Thanks GK, say hi to BW.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks. I'm not feeling too well right now, so I have to check out here for awhile:)

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 1 year ago

Get Well Soon !

[+] -5 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Paranoid much?

Again, I have no sock puppets/bots. Ask the admins.

I haven't vote even ONE comment, from anyone, up or down today. Ask the admins.

Or keep posting stuff that paints you as bitter, paranoid, desperate, etc. Up to you.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

One more time and typed slowly:

I never denied that the word "PALESTINE" appears on atlases and maps. It has for a hell of a lot longer than 1930's.

And it sure the hell DOES matter to ALL of the people living there, especially if your argument that an "occupation" is taking place is true. (Of course it's entirely possible that you have invented some strange and completely unfamiliar definition of the word "occupation". Care to define that term as you are applying it?)

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Here is Amnesty International's summary of the Occupation of Palestine:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012

[-] -3 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Maybe if GAZA would stand the hell down and peacefully negotiate (or stick to peace agreements) the suffering and "occupation" would end!

http://www.france24.com/en/20121122-twelve-rockets-hit-israel-after-truce-police

"Gaza" is no longer under the authority of the PA and is being ruled by terrorists. But you knew that.

[-] 2 points by gmxusa (274) 1 year ago

Gnomunny, there is a very good documentary on the conflict, Occupation 101 - Voices of the silence majority.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzaa4GZwz8

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Thanks, gmx. I will check it out.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

the separation of Palestine started in 47 when I separate jewish state was created

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yeah, and apparently they had plans already in the works to do this prior to WWII.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Simply excellent link and well worth any time spent reading and learning. Thank you for posting.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6641) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

You're welcome. I think those first maps are pretty telling. There seems to be a lot of dispute about the validity of a Palestinian state, historically speaking, but basically I think it's what's happened since 1947 that matters the most. But like I also said, I haven't really studied the politics of it all, so there's probably a whole lot more to the story.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

That link you supplied was really very interesting indeed and with regard to 'whole lot more to the story', well sometimes a clear concise article can speak volumes - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 . Thanks again for your link. Happy holidays and Occupy Thanksgiving!

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Israel is occupying Palestine, so the responsibility is on Israel to withdraw. Israel is the aggressor; it's the right of the victims of the aggressor to defend themselves, not the other way around.

[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

There were people who were not Jewish living in the land now called the Gaza Strip back before Israel was a state. They remained there after Israel carved out a state. Same as there were Serbs living in the land once called Yugoslavia. Shit happens and borders change. We would be calling Palestine a state, like we now call Serbia a state, but the same logic can't apply when our allies are making the counter claim. I don't care what one man said back in the day.

The reality, today, is that there is a distinct group of people being exterminated and blocked off from the world in order for another group of people to carve out more land. This latest violent out break may have started in Palestine but what do expect when walls are erected to shut you off from the world.

I hope this violence will come to an end, but I refuse to believe that the Palestinians don't have a claim.

[-] -1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

Israel did NOT "carve out a state"
The Gazans ARE entitled to Gaza
And Israel would not take Gaza if you gave it to them.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

You are right. Great Britten carved it out. They just excepted it without contesting.

[-] 0 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

Britain

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

Thank you

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Israel TOOK Gaza (and the Sinai Peninsula) from Egypt and the Golan Heights from Syria and the West Bank from Jordan in only 6 days in 1967.

They GAVE most of the land BACK in exchange for peace agreements that were either refused or have been continually ignored since. No good deed goes unpunished.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Lemme go get my calendar. Let's see, November 20,2012 GirlFriday agrees with BetsyRoss.

Will wonders never cease?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

O - M - G it is true...............Nothing is impossible........ no matter how improbable...........ack

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Isn't this like twice now?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yep. It is twice.

[-] -3 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

There were also people who WERE Jewish, and/or of Jewish/Hebrew descent living on the land now called the Gaza Strip back before Israel became a state. READ some history.

http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

"The results match historical accounts that Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer from the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews."

"Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed throughout Europe before returning to Israel in the past few generations; most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just one of three groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years."

Re-read that again-"Historical" AND "scientific DNA results" prove that "Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times."

The Christians/Jews of the southern Levant WERE THERE FIRST, and have been since prehistoric times. "Palestine" isn't even used historically to describe the region between Phoenicia and Egypt until 450-420 BCE, and the Israel/Hebrew/Jewish presence had been established in "Canaan" LONG before that.

[-] 1 points by gmxusa (274) 1 year ago

Who cares what they are called. They are being massacred by the racist Israeli Jews.

[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

THEY apparently care about what they are called. And you apparently "cared" enough to call Israeli Jews "massacring racists".

[-] -1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

racist Israeli Jews ?


labels a cheap
facts are valuable


How many Jews are in any of the 22 Arab county's legislatures? NONE
How many Arabs are in Israel's legislature? at least four

[+] -4 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Shhhh..you know this. I know this. They either don't know, or don't want to accept historical fact.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Israel has been under attack living under a death sentence since it's 1st day of being. If Israel wanted to roll over Gaza - they would have long ago. If the area wanted peace ( the middle east area ) do you think that they would be sending in weapons to continue a conflict - or would they be sending in food water medicine school supplies etc?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Israel has the right to exist, but at this point they are conducting an illegal occupation of Palestine. Israel is the occupier and aggressor; they have the main responsibility - withdrawal.

The palestinans have the right to defend themselves, including armed defense, but that does not, of course, include killing civilians with rockets. It is, however, Israel that has the obligation to end the occupation.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Question:

What do you think you would grow up to be - if everyday of your life - someone jumped out of the crowd around you and punched you and kicked you and took shots at you and stabbed and slashed at you. Each time you take a wound or several - day after day after day - to have the assailants jump back into the crowd and go into hiding until the next attack on you. The crowd just looks on or shrugs it's shoulders and does nothing to help end the attacks - but instead supplies hiding places and weapons for the attackers. What would you be like after surviving this day after day after day for years and years?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

This is not relevant to the discussion.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

What is not pertinent/relevant?

The facts of life over there?

Why is that?

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

And the facts of life in Palestine is that they are the victims of Israeli atrocities and occupation.

No matter how I, or any other individual, would react in a certain situation, does not change the fact that Israel is occupying Palestine. Israel must withdraw and stop the occupation.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - But Gaza is set-up to be a stalking Horse.

Stalking Israel.

So the civilians of Gaza are being used and abused by outside parties.

The outside parties fueling the violence have got to stop.

Stalking horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse A stalking horse is a figure that tests a concept with someone or mounts a challenge against someone on behalf of an anonymous third party. If the idea proves ...

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

You're missing the point. Hamas and militant palestinians have done things I don't agree with, but the issue here is that Israel is occupying Palestine.

It is the occupation that is the issue here, and it is being done by Israel.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sorry - you are missing the point - occupation would not be necessary - if outside forces stopped supplying arms - and instead sent in peaceful aid and ambassadors - peaceful aid like water purification equipment - green energy technology/equipment etc. But NO the third parties using Gaza as a stalking horse are getting what they want - CONFLICT.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

This is nonsense. An illegal occupation is not allowed no matter what. USA had no right to occupy Iraq, Nazi-Germany had no right to occupy Norway - and Israel has no right to occupy Palestine.

If Israel was not occupying but withdrew, accepting the 67-borders, they would have the right to defend themselves if attacked. Israel is, however, continuing the illegal occupation, they have an obligation to pull out of occupied territories.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Correct.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BW - seriously - what would you have Israel do? Considering the continued attacks from Gaza. Would you have them withdraw? And what? Hunker down in bunkers while they wait for the arms to stop flowing into Gaza by outsiders? Where are the peaceful nations of the region? Where are the peacemakers?


[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (10527) 8 minutes ago

Is there a degree of occupation that you find acceptable? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Of course the Gaza youth feel stuck in the middle because NO ONE is helping them.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That's right - NO ONE IS HELPING. Do they Blame Israel for all of it? NO. There is plenty of blame to go around - they themselves start off by naming Hamas - coincidence? - and no they don't stop pointing the finger of blame there either.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

I don't think anyone wants peace more than the Palestinian people and to suggest that they don't is not right. The American Revolutionaries wanted peace, don't you think? But, they knew they could not have peace without their freedom.

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

Is that why the PLO repeatedly refused a peaceful two state solution?
Is that why they elected the terrorist group hamas?

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So you are gonna compare this to the war of independence? Really?

Lets not attack the British troops - lets sail for England so that we can raise hell with the civilian population.

Hhmmmm - just does not sound right.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

I would have them end their illegal occupation of Palestine.

Seriously, DKA, what would you have the Palestinian people do? Accept their suffering and oppression?

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

"seriously, what would you have the Palestinian people do?"
refuse the Iranian rockets and ask Iran for food in stead

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No I would not have them accept oppression - I would have them work for peace and prosperity and good relations with all of their neighbors as I would have Israel do the same as I would have Egypt do the same as I would have Syria do the same as I would have Pakistan do the same as I would have Nigeria and Somalia and Columbia and Mexico and the USA and Russia and China and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and..............................................................

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

What is the root of the problem in Gaza, DKA? The occupation. Who occupies who? Israel occupies Palestine. Any fall out that has come, has come as a result of that occupation.

Pointing a finger at violence without making any attempt to understand what drove those people to that violence, is frankly, pathetic.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Is it? The Occupation? What started the Occupation? Was it terrorist attacks on/in Israel? Was the Occupation not a response to that?

Like I said ( I defend the citizens of Gaza ) the citizens of Gaza are being made victims by outside forces.

So take em at "their" word :

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Oh, so now the colonists didn't feel oppressed? Okay, DKA, we are never going to agree here, but no I'm not backing down. I know what human rights are and I know they are being violated in Gaza.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So take em at "their" word :

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!

Seems like the Gaza youth know that they are stuck in the middle. They know that there is more than one party involved in making their life a misery.

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

What is "Palestine" ?
Why can't you address the issue of GAZA?
There is NO occupation.
Unless you are talking about Iranian rockets occupying civilian areas in GAZA

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Last time I checked Gaza is a part of Palestine.

Israel is conducting an illegal occupation, in violation of international law and condemned by the entire World and UN (except for Israel and US of course).

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

When did the NATION of Palestine exist - other than in you opinion?
How many Israelis are occupying Gaza today?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The fact that Palestine is not (yet) an official nation, does not change the fact that the occupation is illegal.

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

How
many
Israelis
are
occupying
Gaza
today ?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BTW - how much of an occupation can it be - if rockets are still being fired by Hamas from Gaza into Israel?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What!?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Why is there still attacks from such a completely occupied area happening?

What is so hard to understand?

If they were so thoroughly occupied in Gaza - why are they not completely disarmed?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

So the official Occupy forum thread states that picking sides and tearing down both peoples only serves the 1%, so you now engage in divisive pro-Israel arguments. Can you just not help yourself or is division just what you do? Just asking.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Palestine is occupied illegaly by Israel, but Israel don't have control over every single squaremeter and every single individual. You're making no sense.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

BAM!

There it is.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Is there a degree of occupation that you find acceptable?

[-] -2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

and how many Israeli soldiers are occupying Gaza?

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

As far as I ever knew it was a check point to search for suicide belts and arms. So 4? 6? 8? ???

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So an individual - who is being attacked by another individual - who is bent on committing murder - should stop defending them self - and What(?) - Die?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

No, an individual who is being attacked has the right to defend himself from the attacker.

This is probably the worst analogy you could come up with, since it is Israel who is the aggressor and is conducting the illegal occupation.

If an individual is attacking another individual, and the victim is trying to defend himself against the attacker, the attacker has no right to try to stop him from defending himself. That would be the correct analogy in regards to Israel/Palestine.

The responsibility is on Israel to end the illegal occupation. As long as they do not, the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against the aggressor.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Your argument is lacking. If Gaza was so thoroughly Occupied - Why is Hamas still armed? How are rockets being fired into Israel by a thoroughly Occupied Gaza? The responsibility of the world community is to stop the flow of arms into Gaza - and replace it with economic humanitarian aid. Aid that would purify and pump water - aid that would provide green energy independence for the generation of electricity etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Palestine is occupied illegaly by Israel, but Israel don't have control over every single squaremeter and every single individual. You're making no sense.

No, The palestinians have the right to defend themselves, including with arms. The US must stop shipping weapons to the aggressor and occupier: Israel.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

What started the occupation? As if that matters, because really, now, people are being occupied in the 21st century and we need to concern ourselves with their rights. And, it's apartheid really. Not much different than South Africa. I'd say simply put, the creation of the State of Israel by the West and the ensuing conflict started the occupation. Here, read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

And here's some info on the conditions in Gaza:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BTW - Israel was not created out of whole cloth - Israel was restored to a portion of what it used to be.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

No I do not like occupation of another country/state/nation/people. What I really can't stand is those outside forces who make it a necessity that one country/state/nation/people need to do it to stop terrorist attacks coming out of that other country/state/nation/people.

See the whole not just a part.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BW - really? I think you need to take a step back several deep breaths a shot of whiskey - and understand - The Citizens of Gaza - The Citizens of Israel - Are Both Victims

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

You are unreal. You are the one who needs the whiskey. You seem to think it is okay that people are occupied in this day and age. Of course the citizens of both Israel and Gaza are victims in one way or another but their suffering is no comparison. I'm done here.

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

the land of israel is the result of a war ( 1967), that they didnt start, but did win.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Israel did start it. But it's not relevant for the dicussion: Israel is occupying Palestine

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Did Norway chuck a bunch of missiles at Germany or make terrorist attacks on the German People prior to Germany invading Norway? I think not you have nothing to compare there.

Gaza and it's citizens are victims - there is no doubt about it - but whose fault is it?

Is it? The Occupation? What started the Occupation? Was it terrorist attacks on/in Israel? Was the Occupation not a response to that?

Like I said ( I defend the citizens of Gaza ) the citizens of Gaza are being made victims by outside forces.

So take em at "their" word :

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!

Although I think they forgot to include the PLO.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

You keep on dodging.

"Did Norway chuck a bunch of missiles at Germany or make terrorist attacks on the German People prior to Germany invading Norway? I think not you have nothing to compare there."

If Norway had sent rockets into Nazi-Germany, NG would still not have the right to invade and occupy Norway illegally. NG occupied Norway illegally, and Israel is occupying P illegally. That is the point with he 3 questions I asked.

"Gaza and it's citizens are victims - there is no doubt about it - but whose fault is it?"

Israel. They are the aggressors. When norwegians fought back against NG, and NG responded by killing many people, would you say that the norwegian resistance groups were responsible for the norwegians being killed?

"What started the Occupation"

Israel wanting more land. And you're missing the point again. At this moment, and for many many years Israel is conducting an illegal occupation - it's an illegal occupation, no matter what started it.

"Was the Occupation not a response to that?"

The Occupation is illegal. If Israel is responding by doing things that are illegal, then it's logically still illegal..

I have now answered you questions. So now answer my 3 questions, please

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Lets let Gaza speak for themselves.

Is this not how they put it?

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!

Seems like the Gaza youth know that they are stuck in the middle. They know that there is more than one party involved in making their life a misery.

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Hamas has done things that you, I and many palestinians don't agree with, but you keep dodging the core issue, namely the occupation.

Whatever Hamas has done, or whatever scenario you present, nothing changes the fact that Israel is conducting an illegal occupation - which they have an obligation to end.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Really? WWII? You are gonna compare that to the Israeli/Gaza conflict? Really?


[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (3466) 38 minutes ago

In 1940 my country Norway was occupied by Nazi Germany. Many brave Norwegians fought back, including with the use of arms.

1) Did norwegians have the right to defend themselves - including armed defense - against Nazi-Germany?

2) Would you have supported people sending arms to Norway helping the norwegians to defend themselves?

3) Did Nazi-Germany have the right to defend themselves against norwegian armed resistance? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Absolutely. But the comparison is in regards to illegal occupation - which is what NG did in Norway in 1940 and which is what Israel is doing in Palestine.

Please answer the questions.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

That is an effective analogy. D

You probably are still against any difficulties that the occupation of Palestinians creates anyway I bet.

Yes?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yes - But Gaza is set-up to be a stalking Horse. Stalking Israel. So the civilians of Gaza are being used and abused by outside parties.

Stalking horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse A stalking horse is a figure that tests a concept with someone or mounts a challenge against someone on behalf of an anonymous third party. If the idea proves ...

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I can't disagree. It is such a mess over there. And personally I can't envision a time when they will stop fighting.

It seems hopeless to me. I have to be simple about it and plead that the violence, the occupation and the hateful rhetoric end.

I wish I could say something more intelligent about it.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is good to be unbiased and speak the truth. Some day the truth will be considered recognized accepted and acted upon - by The People involved.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

The 'truth' according to who? What do you mean 'stalking horse'? Who are these people? Where did they come from? What's the circumstances of their lives?

Here, get a clue - "Noam Chomsky ; My Visit to Gaza, the World's Largest Open-Air Prison" : http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison

And also maybe - "We are forbidden to say this - Gaza is a Concentration Camp", by Arthur Silber : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33077.htm

You're right - 'It is good to be unbiased and speak the truth', so give it a go because your calling Gaza, Israel's 'stalking horse' isn't unbiased or truthful. Oppressed people resist, what's hard to get about that?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sane people do not shoot rockets at an overwhelmingly more powerful adversary. Gaza is being used as a stalking horse by all of Israels enemies - and the innocent civilians of Gaza are being killed and abused due to this - you can count Syria as one of those who would feed arms into Gaza with the hope of setting off a full scale war which would lead to the death of Israel - and they would not shed a tear over the loss of life in Gaza. You can number Iran in there with Syria.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

When human beings are oppressed and suffering, they resist. End the oppression and suffering and the resistance will end.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Stop the flow of arms into Gaza and replace it with humanitarian aid. How thoroughly occupied is Gaza if they are still firing rockets from there into Israel?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Israel doesn't allow aid to reach the Gaza Strip. That's how thoroughly occupied it is. So, what came first, the chicken or the egg? End the occupation and suffering of the Palestinian people and they won't feel the need to resist. And, why, why should these people need aid in the first place? Huh? Because they've been so maltreated for so many decades. That's why.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BW - stop a moment and consider what has been said and what also has transpired. I know you are a lover - I love that. But do not let it blind you to facts.

Arms getting in through the small border with Egypt. "Small Border" or "easily patrolled" Why is Egypt supplying arms? Why are they not supplying economic aid? I mean if they are able to smuggle arms.

To what purpose are the arms? They can't take on the Israeli military. So what are they doing? Are they trying to get the rest of the world to come in and occupy Israel?

Where in all of this are the neighbors of Gaza? The supporters of a peaceful and prosperous Palestinian nation? The supporters of a peaceful and prosperous middle east - where are they?

Sorry - the only ones who care about Gaza are the innocents being killed there. Well and Israel too - because if they wanted to they could clear off that land.

Don't tell me that Israel couldn't either. Don't tell me that their neighbors would stop them. If that were true - if the neighbors were that committed - then there would be no stopping of the inflow of true aid - economic infrastructure the whole ball of wax.


[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (10509) 1 minute ago

Look at a map of Gaza. The weapons likely get in via the small border that borders with Egypt. Resistance is resistance. People are going to resist occupation. It should be no surprise, but the root of the evil should be dealt with. And, tell me why these people should need aid? I'm not saying they don't but, how did they get in the position of suffering that they are in? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

You do not understand resistance. People who have a need to resist their oppression and suffering will do it any way they can. The Palestinians are famous for throwing rocks when it was all they had. Do you expect them to roll over and accept their plight? That is ridiculous. And, is it not a double standard to say it is alright that the U.S. and other Western countries have supplied weapons to Israel but Egypt and the Arab world can't help out the Palestinians? If the Arab world really wanted to get into this, they could have.

What needs to happen is the occupation and suffering of the Palestinian people needs to end. Period.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Right - no aid can get in but weapons can - BW - that does not make sense.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20483) 1 year ago

Look at a map of Gaza. The weapons likely get in via the small border that borders with Egypt. Resistance is resistance. People are going to resist occupation. It should be no surprise, but the root of the evil should be dealt with. And, tell me why these people should need aid? I'm not saying they don't but, how did they get in the position of suffering that they are in?

[-] -1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

If you believe he statements of the PLO
there are no "Palestinian people"


Hopefully, the people of Gaza will vote out Hamas

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Perhaps Gazans have been driven insane by what keeps happening to them! Do you get all your news and views from MSM? Have you opened any links that may not fit with what you think you know? It is very interesting that you with all your points seem to side with one of the most powerful, nuclear armed military states in the world. My sympathy is with the dispossessed, oppressed and far weaker party. What about you?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

My sympathy is with all of the people of the world - the victims of the powers that be. Gaza is being used by outside parties. Where is the concerted hue and cry from the whole region for peace????

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Do you realise that resistance to occupation is an absolute human right? Everyone is demanding peace so I don't know what you are talking about really but peace is not the same as surrender is it? Hilary is on her way and there will be a ceasefire and then you can go back to forgetting or pretending that you care - until next time! You really need to switch your MSM off I think because to say 'Gaza is being used by outside parties' really is nothing more than propaganda and is very disrespectful to Gazans.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Consider the words you sent me to reflect upon - as it seems you have missed the full content of those words - take another look.

'Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn.

We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians

, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts,

we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail.

It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike,

and we condemn violence from all sides.'

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'Our struggle for peace, justice, and reconciliation here in United States is the same struggle of all peoples everywhere. Those who call for and profit from war, regardless of their stated claims, are the enemies of us all. This is why we say Occupy Wall Street, not Palestine! No to war! No to racism everywhere! No to the war machine fueled by greed!' - from the now deleted OWS News Post. Keep searching, you're winning. Forgot my glasses and to log off, lol!

Solidarity to the 99% wherever they may be.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Back at ya. Who is talking about surrender? Who declared a war? Where are the peacemakers? You seem to be suffering from tunnel vision. No one is stepping forward to end this conflict peacefully. Ban the selling or providing of weapons to anyone. But what do you do about those who are misusing what they have already?

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

In 1940 my country Norway was occupied by Nazi Germany. Many brave Norwegians fought back, including with the use of arms.

1) Did norwegians have the right to defend themselves - including armed defense - against Nazi-Germany?

2) Would you have supported people sending arms to Norway helping the norwegians to defend themselves?

3) Did Nazi-Germany have the right to defend themselves against norwegian armed resistance?

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'Occupy Wall Street, Not Palestine: OWS Says No To War' (Part 1/2):

Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn. We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts, we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail. It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike, and we condemn violence from all sides.

Some Occupiers have been taking part in a recent round of solidarity demonstrations with the people of Gaza. Meanwhile, in Israel, supporters of the #J14 social justice movement and many others have also demonstrated against the military actions of Israel. OWS has always been a nonviolent movement, and as such, we oppose all militarism as robbing the 99% (of money and lives) and strengthening the stranglehold of the 1%. It is clear that these latest acts of aggression, like wars orchestrated by the U.S. government at home and abroad, are just another way of boosting election chances by power-hungry politicians.

This latest Israeli assault takes place among a complex history. Palestinians, like all people, deserve self-determination, the right to return to their homes, to not have their communities demolished, and not forced to live in open-air prisons under military blockade or threat of invasion. But war will not solve this crisis, nor any other; it will only increase extremism, resentment, poverty, and the underlying systemic problems that perpetuate more violence. Collectively punishing an entire population for the actions of a few is not justice. Just as our own government here in U.S. spends trillions on "military defense" while education, infrastructure, and social programs crumble, neither Hamas nor Netanyahu government truly care for the poor and oppressed within their own lands, aside from meager social programs, and would rather spend millions on rockets than create real social justice.

Make no mistake: While we must stand against violence in all forms, this "war" is a one-sided conflict between a military which is one of the largest and best-equipped in the world, the Israeli Defense Forces, who enjoy widespread support from the U.S. military industrial complex, and a people whose lands have been steadily dwindling for decades. Civilian causalities in Gaza, a tiny strip of land that is densely populated and has been under blockade for some time (meaning that no one can leave, there is no where to hide, and medical supplies and other goods cannot enter) far outweigh those in Israel, with its advanced missile defense system. As a result, despair and desire for revenge are on the rise, and politicians on all sides seek to exploit this.

While the 1% of the United States supports and profits from these latest acts of aggression, and U.S. money and arms are used to conduct it, there are those of us within these colonized borders who refuse to let this happen in our name, with our tax dollars. As if it were not enough to merely denounce militarism and hatred for its own sake, to those who would say this is not an economic issue, or that this does not apply to income inequality: How much poverty is one jet, one bomb worth? There can be no social justice or economic equality in a world ruined by war or controlled by colonialism.

The United States, itself built on broken treaties and stolen land, is still the greatest exporter of arms and builder of the largest (and most racially disparate) prison system ever known on Earth. For those incarcerated and targeted by police brutality, for those who are forced to live on impoverished reservations, and those shackled by debt here in the U.S., to the victims of terror in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and across the world, we must continue to build a mass people's movement across divisions of race, religion, and all other borders to oppose tyranny, colonialism, and war in all forms. We all deserve to live in safety in our homes and enjoy the same rights, regardless of religion or race, whether we are immigrants or not. Our leaders would distract us by filling our minds with zealous hatred and send us to kill and die. We say no more.

The best way to end war is to start by overthrowing our regimes at home. Those with power wish to keep it; and war is profitable, politically and economically, for them. As long as the logic of capitalism declares "pursue profit at all cost," regardless of the toll it takes on humanity, and as long as power, land, and resources are concentrated in the hands of the 1%, wars will continue as the rest of us are forced to compete over what is left, what for thousands of generations was shared by all. The capitalist imperative that allows multinational banks to profit by evicting innocent families from their homes is the same logic that justifies taking more and more land in Palestine and the world over. The bombs over Gaza and Tel Aviv are merely the most dramatic example of a global system that seeks to rob us all of our right to live peacefully. Protesting wars abroad is not enough; we must fight the war at home.

This is why the best way to end war is to end capitalism and domination. We must make right the wrongs of the past by building a world in which all have access to the basic means of survival and safety, so that not one more person will die in a fruitless war. Our struggles should not be against one another, but against those who would rob us of our land and send us to fight and die for their own gain.

Our struggle for peace, justice, and reconciliation here in United States is the same struggle of all peoples everywhere. Those who call for and profit from war, regardless of their stated claims, are the enemies of us all. This is why we say Occupy Wall Street, not Palestine! No to war! No to racism everywhere! No to the war machine fueled by greed!

The following statement, issued by a group calling itself "Gaza Youth Breaks Out" has gone viral on the internet, and we reproduce it here to show our solidarity with the innocent civilians of Gaza and Israel, and because we feel affinity with its message.

Part 2/2 above or below - GAZAN YOUTH’S MANIFESTO FOR CHANGE.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Please reflect on these words as you contemplate the whole picture - not just a single piece of the picture.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (618) 1 minute ago

'Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn. We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts, we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail. It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike, and we condemn violence from all sides.' - from, http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-wall-street-not-palestine-ows-says-no-wa/#comments .

Please do reflect on these words as you seek to defend the Israeli position. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Do you echo because you know that your argument is so hollow? Read on and keep reflecting. Solidarity and I'm done and need to prepare dinner for the masses now. Never stop searching.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Indiscriminate bombing? or Bombing of sites launching missile's?

You are being dismissive of facts - The Gaza People are not.

Take them at their own word:

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! I do believe though that they forgot to include the PLO.

Seems like the Gaza youth know that they are stuck in the middle. They know that there is more than one party involved in making their life a misery.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

'Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn. We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts, we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail. It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike, and we condemn violence from all sides.' - from:

http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-wall-street-not-palestine-ows-says-no-wa/#comments .

Please do reflect on these words as you seek to defend the Israeli position.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA!

Seems like the Gaza youth know that they are stuck in the middle. They know that there is more than one party involved in making their life a misery.

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

Right and who is raining bombs upon them and their families again? You really seem to be ignoring the realities of the OCCUPATION, its historical roots and its effects. Here, do read some of the links on this important thread - http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ - please.

They'll never give up because they are occupied, oppressed, repressed and slowly going mad with it all! Finally, with all your points, you are definitely the person to ask, so what happened to OWS Solidarity News Article that was on the forum earlier?

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Back at ya. Who is talking about surrender? Who declared a war? Where are the peacemakers? You seem to be suffering from tunnel vision. No one is stepping forward to end this conflict peacefully. Ban the selling or providing of weapons to anyone. But what do you do about those who are misusing what they have already?

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

GAZAN YOUTH’S MANIFESTO FOR CHANGE

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community! We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16’s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in; we are like lice between two nails living a nightmare inside a nightmare, no room for hope, no space for freedom. We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of cold dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, homemade fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of canalizing this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope. The final drop that made our hearts tremble with frustration and hopelessness happened 30rd November, when Hamas’ officers came to Sharek Youth Forum, a leading youth organization (www.sharek.ps) with their guns, lies and aggressiveness, throwing everybody outside, incarcerating some and prohibiting Sharek from working. A few days later, demonstrators in front of Sharek were beaten and some incarcerated. We are really living a nightmare inside a nightmare. It is difficult to find words for the pressure we are under. We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. They did not get rid of Hamas, as they intended, but they sure scared us forever and distributed post traumatic stress syndrome to everybody, as there was nowhere to run.

We are youth with heavy hearts. We carry in ourselves a heaviness so immense that it makes it difficult for us to enjoy the sunset. How to enjoy it when dark clouds paint the horizon and bleak memories run past our eyes every time we close them? We smile in order to hide the pain. We laugh in order to forget the war. We hope in order not to commit suicide here and now. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the earth. During the last years Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. We are a generation of young people used to face missiles, carrying what seems to be a impossible mission of living a normal and healthy life, and only barely tolerated by a massive organization that has spread in our society as a malicious cancer disease, causing mayhem and effectively killing all living cells, thoughts and dreams on its way as well as paralyzing people with its terror regime. Not to mention the prison we live in, a prison sustained by a so-called democratic country.

History is repeating itself in its most cruel way and nobody seems to care. We are scared. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We are afraid of living, because every single step we take has to be considered and well-thought, there are limitations everywhere, we cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want, sometimes we even cant think what we want because the occupation has occupied our brains and hearts so terrible that it hurts and it makes us want to shed endless tears of frustration and rage!

We do not want to hate, we do not want to feel all of this feelings, we do not want to be victims anymore. ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want!

We want three things. We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask? We are a peace movement consistent of young people in Gaza and supporters elsewhere that will not rest until the truth about Gaza is known by everybody in this whole world and in such a degree that no more silent consent or loud indifference will be accepted.

This is the Gazan youth’s manifesto for change!

We will start by destroying the occupation that surrounds ourselves, we will break free from this mental incarceration and regain our dignity and self respect. We will carry our heads high even though we will face resistance. We will work day and night in order to change these miserable conditions we are living under. We will build dreams where we meet walls.

We only hope that you – yes, you reading this statement right now! – can support us. In order to find out how, please write on our wall or contact us directly: freegazayouth@hotmail.com

We want to be free, we want to live, we want peace.

FREE GAZA YOUTH!

Pls consider supporting us by taking one or more of the following actions:

1) Promoting our manifesto by sharing it on your profile on Facebook 2) Sending an email to your friends asking them to like our page FB 3) Translating the manifesto to your language and sending it to us (we have it in English, Arabic, Hebrew, French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Danish) 4) Sending the manifesto to journalists in your country 5) Making organizations in your countries that are concerned with the Palestinian issue and/or youth rights know about our existence 6) Posting links about violation of youth's rights in Gaza on our wall 7) Planning an event in your country about this issue and/or organizing for a skype conference, where we are able to talk with a group of youth, politicians or others outside Gaza 8) Suggesting us ideas for reaching out to a greater number of people.

PEACE NOW!

[-] 1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

"Gaza used by outside parties"
Is that why Iran is sending rockets to Gaza?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I would think so. It seems kinda obvious. BTW - does anyone ever ask why the Arab Nations are not supporting and working for Peace?

[-] 1 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

I don't think that question should be permitted

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Oh! IknowIknowIknowIknow.

Because Israel is their whipping boy. It is the only thing that they can all agree on. Although, they don't actually want to go to war with Israel and they often do business with them.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

The US government has wanted to roll over Libya for a long time and they took years to do it.

Suggesting there is not ulterior motives because it's been a few years is not logical.

The first part of war is deception.

That being said, both Israel and Hamas are wrong in this issue... based on what I've read about the ongoing conflict.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Gaza is being used by outsiders. The Civilians are the victims of these outsiders who are supplying arms to Hamas.

[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

the civilians are also the victims because outsiders like the US government are supplying arms around the world.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Export peace not war - end strife - it is not necessary - we can be peaceful and healthy and prosperous. EVERYONE.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

it is possible!

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

In our recent elections, it would be very hard to come up with a more significant reason for the republican losses than the fact that they told the truth about themselves.
Why can’t we also learn the truth from what the PLO says about the “Palestinian people” ?
: On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with
Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.


”The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.
Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of “Palestine”, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”


A provocative story? It’s more than that. It is the truth.
Truth does not change. Truth is truth.
If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.
And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.
You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement:
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.” The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir’s “racism.” They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception – but is source from a PLO leader!

What they don’t like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth –
that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.


Pretty clear, isn’t it? It’s even more specific than Golda Meir’s statement. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993.
It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.


On the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, Arafat stated:
“Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”


No matter how many people delude themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves. In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland.
It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Why now has it become such a critical priority?
The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.
Golda Meir was telling the truth. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.
Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It’s not too late to say no to terrorism. It’s not too late to say no to another Arab terror state to launch attacks at the only Jewish state. It’s not too late to tell the truth about Palestine.

Why didn’t the PLO accept any of the MANY two state solutions proposed by Israel & America in the last few decades? If the Arab nations were interested in peace or simply aiding their brethren , they would support the West Bank as part of Jordan & Gaza as part of Egypt ( as it was occupied by Egypt 1948-1967 ).
And they would be sending food to Gaza in stead of guns & rockets. If the Gazan militants were really fighting for the Gazan people, they would not launch their rockets from civilian neighborhoods. by Joseph Farah

[-] -2 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

dont confuse the anti israeli haters with facts.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

You can't confuse people with "facts" when they pretend that such things (facts) don't exist. And even if you force them to admit that they exist, they'll tell you that they don't really matter. :)

[-] -3 points by janus2 (-387) 1 year ago

thats the dems/libs/progressives/fascists for ya.

[+] -5 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

I thought you were all about "occupying"???? Is OWS "the aggressor" who has the "responsibility to withdraw" when they occupy land/parks/buildings that do not belong to them? Do the "victims" of OWS occupations also have the "right to defend themselves"?

Can't have it both ways. But something tells me you'll try to...

[-] 2 points by NVPHIL (664) 1 year ago

The timing seems suspicious. Israel kills a palestinian child 2 days after our election which provoked the attacks that Israel uses as an excuse to attack gaza. How much do you want to bet we gave them iron dome so they would hold off on their attacks until after the election.

[-] 1 points by RedDragon (-161) 1 year ago

I see this in the very same light it would have been viewed in biblical times - as a survivalist issue. Let them have at it and to the victor go the spoils. A peace purchased is temporary at best.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Huh - who knew? There is something there?

Israeli Resource Based Industries www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Economy/eco6.html Israel's reputation as a country bereft of natural resources, surrounded by a .... in recent years have resulted in finer materials and increased recovery rates for ...

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

For some perspective, 100 years ago, all of Israel (Palestine), Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and parts of Saudi Arabia were part of the Ottoman empire for 400 years. The people called Palestinians could rightfully call part of some of these nations their homeland as well.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/maps/ottoman.htm

This is a problem the wisdom of Soloman couldn't resolve, so people resort to violence to determine what is fair, which always results in what is unfair.

Better to let the fair minded people within the land decide how to end this conflict than to let the violent minded people outside the land to continue it.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28187) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So reality is not excluded from all considerations:

Since 1948, almost 10 million Muslims have died at the hands

[-] 0 points by ericweiss (575) 1 year ago

A video at CNN with reporting by Sara Sidner from Gaza tells us "how a small child became a symbol of civilian casualties." Some of her narrative: "A scene no parent should ever have to endure"; "Four year-old Mahmoud Sadallah lies dead in the arms of a neighbor, a child of Gaza, another victim of an airstrike"; "we saw no evidence here of military activity." There's even a scene where Ms. Sidner reports having to flee where she is currently reporting because "there are airstrikes" and "rockets." Since Hamas doesn't have an air force, we're supposed to assume that Israel's military is responsible for Mahmoud's death.

Except, as Joel Pollak noted this morning, others have shown that Sidner wants us to believe isn't the truth :

Hamas has once again apparently been caught faking an image of a dead Palestinian child --this time using a child likely killed by its own rocket fire and claiming that an Israeli attack was responsible. CNN's Sara Sidner ran a full report on the child's death, strongly implying that an Israeli bomb had been responsible.
The dead child was paraded before the cameras during the visit of Egyptian prime minister Hisham Kandil, who kissed the dead child in the presence of Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh. But even the New York Times was suspicious.
Bloggers such as Elder of Ziyon quickly pieced together the evidence of Hamas fakery: The fact that Hamas and other terror groups were firing rockets throughout Friday morning while the IDF did not, plus the fact that over 100 rockets have fallen short in Gaza (both using past performance and IDF statistics as proof), and the fact that the shrapnel in the video matches almost exactly the shrapnel damage we have seen from rocket fire into Israel, and it is very clear: this child was killed by Gaza rocket fire, not by Israel.

Not every civilian death in Gaza is faked, of course. But almost every civilian death can be attributed to Hamas, which deliberately fires rockets from civilian areas and hides its weapons caches in mosques and homes.

Update: According to the office of Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 60 of the 703 rockets fired by Hamas and other terror groups since the start of the conflict have fallen on Palestinian civilians. The Israel Defense Force says that 99 rockets in total that were fired at Israel have hit Gaza itself in four days of conflict.
Update 2: Several sources now report that the child was, in fact, killed by a Hamas rocket, not Israel. Those sources include the Palestinian Center for Human Rights.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Terrorist attack on civilians in Tel Aviv-
The eight-day conflict in the Gaza Strip appeared to have spilled onto the streets of Tel Aviv on Wednesday with what police described as a bomb blast aboard a civilian bus. The explosion came as Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton pursued diplomatic efforts to end the fighting. She planned to fly to Cairo Wednesday after talks with Israeli leaders in Jersualem and Palestinian leaders in the West Bank.

On several occasions since the latest conflagration seized Gaza last week, militants have aimed rockets at Tel Aviv but they have either fallen short, landed in the sea or been intercepted.
Hundreds of rockets fired by militants in Gaza have struck other targets.

But the bombing seemed to mark the first time in the current fighting that violence had spread directly onto the streets of Tel Aviv. The bus was not full at the time of the explosion, rescue officials said.

“A bomb exploded on a bus in central Tel Aviv. This was a terrorist attack” Reuters quoted Ofir Gendelman, a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

According to The Associated Press, the bus exploded on one of Tel Aviv’s busiest arteries, near the city’s museum.

Television footage showed a bus with shattered windows, filled with smoke.

In a Twitter message, the Israeli military said: “A bus has exploded in Tel Aviv. Possibly due to a bomb or suicide bomber. Many ambulance sirens. Stay tuned for updates.”

Bus bombs and urban violence were relatively common a decade ago during the second Palestinian uprising, but have been rare in recent years.

Police said they were hunting for a man who jumped on and off the bus shortly before the blast.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Is this the daily headline lineup for MSNBC today? Because it looks like it.

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

And what is "Palestine" & the "Palestinian people" ?


http://occupywallst.org/forum/disaster-in-the-middle-east/#comment-879627

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

(CNN) -- The longstanding conflict between Israel and the Palestinian group Hamas reignited after Israel launched airstrikes against terrorist targets in Gaza.
Israel explained that the offensive was necessitated by increasing rocket attacks from the Hamas-controlled territory.
Among those killed in the Israeli airstrikes Ahmed al-Ja'abari,
the chief of Hamas' military wing.

Weapons depots and rocket-launching sites were also targeted.