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Forum Post: Connecting the Dots: Tar Sands, Pipelines, Trains, and Human Lives

Posted 4 years ago on Sept. 5, 2013, 8:04 p.m. EST by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

NBC ran a report tonight indicating that the NTSB issued recommendations several years ago regarding a specific type of rail car - a tanker rail car referred to as a DOT-111. The recommendations include a double hull, designed to prevent puncture. Not a bad idea, given that these cars carry highly flammable hazardous material including petroleum products; or given the fact that it was the DOT-111 that destroyed Lac-Megantic, Quebec, July 6, 2013.

The Canadian explosion occurred in the dead of night, killed 42, five remain missing and as CNN reports, may have occurred as a result of criminal behavior.

What major U.S. news outlets have not aired, but apparently Canada's national news publication, The Globe and Mail has, is that Canadian Tar Sands will be shipped to Texas refineries by rail or pipeline.

As reported by The Globe and Mail Canadian Ambassador Gary Doer said of the U.S. President:

“His choice is to have it come down by a pipeline that he approves, or without his approval, it comes down on trains. That’s just the raw common sense of this thing, and we’ve been saying it for two years and we’ve been proven correct,” Mr. Doer said Sunday. “At the end of the day, it’s trains or pipelines.”

As Len Rosen says, this is clearly a veiled threat: "don’t approve the pipeline and expect oil to come across your borders in substandard tanker cars like the ones that recently derailed at Lac Megantic and won’t you be sorry."

We can safely presume that if it is true, as I believe, that the one percent has not changed much in over five centuries, then we will certainly see accidents involving DOT-111 rail tankers hauling flammable hazmat in the U.S., lives will be lost, and there will be no proof whatsoever that the lives lost were sacrificed as a part of the lobbying effort of the oil industry seeking approval for KeyStone XL.

Just as there is no evidence to indicate that 42 lives have already been sacrificed on that oil industry lobbyists erection


Clearly it is time for a NEW DEAL.

As a part of this New Deal I would suggest that accidents may happen to anyone.


  1. Danger on the tracks: Unsafe rail cars carry oil through US towns

  2. Oil Tank Cars Like Those in Quebec Tragedy Long Seen As Flawed

  3. Wiki: Lac-Mégantic derailment

  4. Police: Evidence criminal act may have led to Canada train crash

  5. ‘Trains or pipelines,’ Doer warns U.S. over Keystone

  6. Where Politics Trumps Science Oil is Sure to be Involved





Draw the line September 21



Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Tar Sands. Fracking. Arctic Oil. These are some of the most important flashpoints in the fight for America's energy future.

Today, NRDC is launching a new website for climate activism called DemandCleanPower.org. Some of the nation’s cultural luminaries are joining forces with us to help move America beyond fossil fuels and stave off climate chaos.

Watch videos by Robert Redford, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Van Jones and others -- and send a message telling President Obama to reject the Keystone XL tar sands pipeline.

DemandCleanPower.org is a one-stop site for Americans to fight back against Big Oil and make our voices heard against energy development that endangers our planet.

In the coming months we'll be targeting an onslaught of dangerous fracking and Shell's disastrous plan to drill in the Arctic Ocean.

This is just the start, and it starts with you.

Sincerely, Frances

Frances Beinecke President Natural Resources Defense Council

The mission of the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) is to safeguard the Earth: its people, its plants and animals, and the natural systems on which all life depends.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago


DKAtoday ‏@DKAtoday

Check out the great videos from @DemandCleanPWR http://www.demandcleanpower.org

It Can Be done.

It Must Get Done.

4 "a" future.



[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

There's a new petition taking off on Change.org, and we think you might be interested in signing it:

KXL No Way - Protect Grand Mother Earth NOW! By DaNakota Nation Wagner, South Dakota

Sign the Petition

Take this Resolution to your tribal councils, city councils, legislators, environmental groups, community groups and organizations and have them adopt as soon as possible:

Protect Grand Mother Earth - NO KXL Pipeline

Whereas, Unci Maka, Grand Mother Earth (misnomer “planet/globe”) is, in its entirety, a Very Sacred Site (like that of the Vatican, Bear Butte, or Mecca Circle), and

Whereas, the 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie, agreed upon and officially signed between the N/DN/D/Lakota "Sioux" and the united states government on September 17th, 1851, guarantees perpetual ownership of all lands, waters, resources, and air of a majority portion of the Northern Great Plains of Great Turtle Island (including "western South Dakota") for the exclusive use and control of, by, and for the nine signatory Indigenous Red "Indian" Nations and Peoples thereof, and

Whereas, the 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie is protected from u.s. government violation through Article VI of the United States Constitution that states, "Treaties made with Indian Nations shall be the supreme law of the land, with the judges in every state bound thereby", and

Whereas, a proposed "keystone XL underground pipeline project" violates the U.S. Constitution, the 1851 Treaty, and the sanctity of the Lands and purity of the Waters of the Treaty Territories, and

Whereas, the Ogallala aquifer, flowing beneath the ground under 1851 Territories, is one of the last pristine underground water sources flowing, as Life Blood, within Grand Mother Earth and must be protected from any toxics or oils that any project such as the proposed "KXL pipeline project" could cause, and

Whereas, such "KXL" project would also be a violation the 1988 Genocide Convention Implementation "Proxmire" Act, wherein violators are subject to life in prison and a one (1) million dollar fine, and

Whereas, any and all government and company officials adopting/authorizing/starting a "KXL project" would be in direct violation of the above mentioned laws, the Genocide Act, 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie, and Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, and

Whereas, president, Barack Obama, whose final signature of approval for a "KXL project", would initiate and commence genocide against the Signatory Nations and Peoples of the 1851 Treaty, and would constitute a violation of the Genocide Act, the 1851 Treaty, and Article VI of the U.S. Constitution.

Therefore Be It Resolved, that president Barack Obama immediately and publicly denounce and reject the "KXL project”, and

Be It Further Resolved, that Obama, his government, and their authorized corporations desiring to commit genocide and violate their own Constitution through such an immoral and genocidal project cease and desist from any further depredation transgressions and attempts at genocide upon 1851 Treaty Territories and Sacred Homelands of the nine signatory Red Nations upon our most sacred Grand Mother Earth.

Be It Finally Resolved, that we hereby promise to honor, respect, and abide by the 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie, The Genocide Convention Implementation Act, Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, and to protect Grand Mother Earth at all costs, taking and sharing this document to all of our friends, relatives, organizations and churches, communities and Nations that we belong to, urging them to adhere to the intent and purpose of this document.

Sign the Petition

The person (or organization) who started this petition is not affiliated with Change.org. Change.org did not create this petition and is not responsible for the petition content.

What I said when I signed:

We ( everyone in the world ) need to get off of using fossil fuel. Global warming is real - climate change is happening. This along with the fact that fossil fuel extraction and transportation - Kills - Is more than enough reason to stop it's use. Then there are the wars it promotes for control of foreign oil fields. ALL OF THE ABOVE IS COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. We have alternative technology available to be implemented TODAY. Alternative technology which is clean to the environment and to all life. One example a recent episode of NOVA shows many new tech answers for pollution problems - Making Stuff: Cleaner http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-stuff-cleaner.html Aired: Aug 28, 2013 Consider this information share this information. We can do so much better than we are. 43 minutes into the above program it talks about liquid metal batteries - this would be the most significant up-grade to every power grid in the world - as significant as stopping the use of fossil fuel. A much better use of employment and public funds for upgrading our power grid for pumping money into the economy - not throw it away like the ongoing 85 billion a month bailout of Wallstreet.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 4 years ago


[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Lots of groups getting involved in the issue. {:-]) Even better - this group has a clear legal authority to reject KXL.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 4 years ago


[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Yep very excellent.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

They said we'd never be able to stop the Keystone XL pipeline. But two years later, KXL is still on hold and President Obama's most recent action was to delay the pipeline yet again, pending more consideration of its impact on climate change.*

Delay is not the decision we need, but it is a big deal, because 97 percent of scientists agree that global warming is real and happening now, and that lighting the fuse of the carbon bomb called the tar sands will only make things much worse.

We're winning the fight to stop Keystone and save the planet, but it's not over yet. That's why we're teaming up with the rest of the climate movement on Sept. 21 for a day of actions called Draw the Line. Coast-to-coast, people are organizing action to protect our communities from climate change and to show President Obama that there is no turning back — to keep his climate promises, he has to stop Keystone XL.

Two years ago, I went to Miami, Fla., to connect the dots between climate change, rising sea levels and extreme weather. Last February, I was in Washington, D.C., as part of the largest climate change rally in U.S. history. I know a lot of you attended those events as well, so you know how powerful and beautiful we can be when we team up to stop global warming.

But after years of pressure, the president is finally starting to hear us. He's specifically said he won't approve Keystone if it hurts the climate (which, of course, it will). Now is the time to make our stand.

On Sept. 21 we will show the president that we are committed to stopping this pipeline and that we are watching his next move closely.

Join your local Draw the Line action to show the President we're mobilized, and ready to support him if he stops the pipeline.

See you there,

Drew Hudson Director | Environmental Action

* Kate Sheppard, Keystone XL Decision Likely Delayed Until 2014, The Huffington Post, 08/26/2013

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

This week, Congress has the chance to take a step in the right direction.

Today or tomorrow, the U.S. Senate is set to vote on amendments to the Shaheen-Portman Energy Savings and Industrial Competitiveness Act. This broadly supported, bipartisan bill would reduce consumers' energy costs by $4 billion and create 80,000 jobs.

But now, a small group of senators working on behalf of Big Oil are attempting to hijack the bill to promote the highly polluting Keystone XL pipeline.

Don't let them win. Ask your senator to oppose any amendment that supports the Keystone XL tar sands pipeline.

As you know well, Keystone XL would mean millions of tons of new carbon pollution entering the air, dozens of newly polluted waterways, and poisoned communities all across the Midwest. The impact on the climate would be catastrophic -- the equivalent of seven coal-fired power plants operating continuously for 50 years. Not to mention, the pipeline would run through -- not to -- the United States, so the oil can be shipped overseas all to the benefit of a foreign oil company.

That's the definition of a real poison pill. It's a shameful tactic even by the standards of Washington's climate denier caucus.

Tell your senators to oppose the poison pill in the Shaheen-Portman efficiency legislation:


Thank you,

Tom Steyer

Next Generation Climate Action | 351 California St. San Francisco, CA 94104

What I added:

You know as well as I - that we need to get off of fossil fuel use ASAP - and that there are very viable alternatives to take advantage of - RIGHT NOW. Please as an unimaginable boost - clean boost to our and any power grid - look into the Liquid Metal Battery - major electricity storage and distribution - a buffer between any power generation and demand on the grid for that electricity. Google TED talks liquid metal battery. This and many more clean and viable alternatives are legitimate Nails In The Coffin of the XL pipeline and all fossil fuel extraction and use.

[-] 0 points by richlago1 (-25) 4 years ago

I watched a program where it stated that one barrel of oil energy produced 100 barrels of light sweet crude as is found in Saudi Arabia. While one barrel of oil energy (be it gasoline, diesel or whatever) only produces two barrels of Tar Sand Oil. That is after you remove the overburden, dig the stuff up, boil it, pump it, process it. etc. It truly is the end game play of big oil on the down side of the curve of peak oil. It's like planning how to cut down the last tree on Easter Island.


[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Just to see what would happen - after a young kid had his feet taken off by a train - I sent in a good question to the local channel 4 news = Why don't Train Tracks traveling through populated areas have barriers on each side of the track not just for child safety. The question has yet to air.


[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

through populated areas

I don't see why not. You ever see freeway barriers?


[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

But as mentioned in your post: http://occupywallst.org/forum/connecting-the-dots-tar-sands-pipelines-trains-and/

Perhaps a proper barrier might have saved that town and those lives.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

You bet they would squeal

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

I agree. How much nanny-state overlording do sane people need?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

I read your posts here


[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

It's quite clear from the bulk of your posts, ZD, that the cat caught most of your pigeons quite some time ago.

But do feel free to carry on, regardless.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Hey, B. Just wanted to welcome you to the "you must be a closet Republican" club. Glad to have ya aboard, compadre.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Thanks buddy. This place gets stranger every time I drop in for a look.

Remember what I was saying about familiarity? There might actually be some value in re-inventing yourself over and over, just to keep the regulars guessing.

Or something. Anyways, big day here in the land of OZ. Federal election today.

The Roopert Mudrock-dominated press has been running a heated smear campaign to replace the incumbents with a faux conservative Christian type.

Heaven help us. :-)

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

OZ is in my prayers, man. It's unfortunate that it's so closely intertwined with the 'axis of evil.'

Familiarity, yeah. I was just thinking about that. ;-)

Good luck with the elections.


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

My pleasure, warmonger.


[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

What you fail to accept is you know absolutely nothing about me, despite my being here since October 2011. If you did, you wouldn't keep repeating the stoopid statement accusing me of being a "closet Republican." Nor would you assume that I'm clueless about the 1%'s affinity for war:


And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I'll say this again, Zen, although I'm convinced it won't sink in any better today than it did yesterday. This isn't about a gas attack. You're worldview sucks.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

And to put things in a perspective that some might forget, trade sanctions on Iraq between illegal invasions resulted in the deaths of a half a million children.

Irradiating the whole nation with depeleted uranium will result in more physical damage to Iraqi civilians than anything that has happened to date in Syria.

If Assad is the problem, then take him out. That does not need several dozen warships, and several regiments of grunts.

America is heading for the second fiscal cliff. Who is pushing for that?

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Good points, which go hand in hand with my newest reply to Zen, below, stating simply that this country has absolutely no room to talk when it comes to war crimes. I don't understand how anyone on this forum can read the links provided over the last week or two, and not realize this is about the US controlling the region's natural resources.

Hell, I rarely read anything about what's going on in the Middle East and I think I have a pretty good grasp of the big picture.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Yes, we must have posted at the same time.

The hypocrisy rankles. I was reading how military US generals are saying how stupid it would be to do anything rash in Syria. That's tantamount to treason, as far as the war hawks are concerned. I'm wondering if this empire will end like the Roman one, where whole legions can be turned against their former controllers.

Interesting days we live in.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Interesting days indeed. And call me crazy, but if the bombs are going to fall, then let's get it the fuck going already. The sooner this country gets its comeuppance, the better the world will be.

But I like your scenario better; whole legions of the military turning against the occupiers of DC and wresting control. It may be the only thing that will save the planet.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

As us Aussies say; "There's only so much shit a koala can bear."

News travels fast, but discontent travels faster, and there's no shortage of discontent in the military today.

The 0.01% probably know this better than any; hence the switch to using mercenary forces, arming insurgent "rebels", and utilising drone bombers.

My chief concern is that there's still enough nuclear firepower in silos around the world, to turn this huge lump of rock and fire into a vapour cloud in the cosmos.

There's also enough narcissism in the hearts and minds of men, to do just that.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

"There's also enough narcissism in the hearts and minds of men, to do just that."

Not to mention the disturbing fact that a disproportionate amount of our fearless leaders could be considered fundamental Christians. And it's their belief that the word of the Bible trumps any man-made document, the Constitution and Bill of Rights included, of course.

Which just might explain our administration's apparent insanity in regards to the Middle East.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

I'd maintain that the 0.01%'s continued reference to things biblical is a part of the control mechanism of the masses.

Anyone with an introspective and alert brain can clearly see that these people are not Christians in mind or deed. The pinnacle of Christianity is the Vatican. A more ostentatious display of wealth and pomposity, in the midst of a call for austerity and selflessness, would be hard to imagine.

A tithe on all things papal would be enough to end world poverty. The cost of invading Iraq, regardless of the legality of same, would be enough to recreate America's booming middle-class, and provide a future for all Americans.

Again, the hypocrisy grates. And yet we still have the likes of ZenDog here, calling for war, while ignoring the obvious.


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Check out this amazing bit of coincidence, B. Right after posting the comment to you right below here, I was reading the post "Israel lobby will force the US to a broader war" and clicked on stevebol's Alternet link about Larry Summers and Syria. And look what just so happened to be in the sidebar. Actually it was in the sidebar to an article in the sidebar about 10 crazy beliefs of the fundamentalist Christians:


I'm off to read it now. Crazy coincidence, eh?

Edit: "Narcissism is the disease of the modern world, and quite possibly the source of most of the problems we are now encountering."

Totally agree.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

It does sometimes seem we're living in some form of Bizarro World, doesn't it?

I base my supposition about fundamentalist Christians on a doc I saw last year that claimed as many as 40% of the US population were fundamentalist Christians, many of which have stated that the word of the Bible trumps the US Constitution hands down, so I figured if 40% of the general population were, then it's possible our 'representatives' were as well. Perhaps radical fundamentalists would be more appropriate, because a lot of them don't adhere to what we would consider Christian beliefs. And it's a bit scary to think that there are people in power that might be attempting to hasten in the "End Times" to self-fulfill the prophesy, as it were.

I agree about the Vatican, by the way. Supposedly there are documents in their archives that essentially give them title to the lands of the entire fucking planet.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Titles, my arse. Homo erectus is the only mammal on the planet that pays rent to live here.

That is not the way I live anymore.

The 40% figure for Christianity is pretty accurate figure, given that the mind-benders behind our mass-media are constantly contriving ways to keep us all "occupied" or un-united.

Anyone who needs evidence of how the "end times" scenario pans out need look no further than Jonestown. Don't drink the Kool-aid.

Narcissism is the disease of the modern world, and quite possibly the source of most of the problems we are now encountering.

Money, or the love of same, is a manifestation of narcissism. Imagine if you had control of the production of wealth. Would you entrust that control to someone who is untouchable? Someone who has nobody to answer to?


[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

I saw your links already. Way to pick and choose, Zen. If anything, they prove my point, genius. From the first one, originally from The Guardian:

"Experts are unanimous that the shocking footage of civilians, including children, suffering the effects of some sort of chemical attack, is real - but remain divided on whether it involved military-grade chemical weapons associated with Assad's arsenal, or were a more amateur concoction potentially linked to the rebels.

Whatever the case, few recall that US agitation against Syria began long before recent atrocities, in the context of wider operations targeting Iranian influence across the Middle East.

In May 2007, a presidential finding revealed that Bush had authorised CIA operations against Iran. Anti-Syria operations were also in full swing around this time as part of this covert programme . . . "


"So what was this unfolding strategy to undermine Syria and Iran all about? According to retired NATO Secretary General Wesley Clark, a memo from the Office of the US Secretary of Defense just a few weeks after 9/11 revealed plans to "attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years", starting with Iraq and moving on to "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran." In a subsequent interview, Clark argues that this strategy is fundamentally about control of theregion's vast oil and gas resources."

I'd go on, but why waste my time? The utter hypocrisy of our administration calling for an act of war against Assad for "war crimes" is ridiculous. Our government has become the biggest genocidal, warmongering, terrorist organization in the history of the planet. And what do you propose? More killin'. Another fucking war that could easily escalate into WW III.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

WW III has been being waged for quite some time now. It is the war of the undead against all that is living. The undead are corp(se)oRATions.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

"It has been a hot war - plenty of killing being done in the names of the undead."

The Powell Memo was the official declaration.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

The Powell Memo was the official declaration.

Well it certainly laid the ground work for the campaign against humanity - provided the manifesto.

Lewis F. Powell, Jr. - The Powell Memo (or the Powell Manifesto ... reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis

All about the infamous memo which influenced or inspired the creation of the Heritage Foundation, Manhattan Institute, Cato Institute, and others

The Lewis Powell Memo - Corporate Blueprint to Dominate … www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/.../the-lewis-powell-memo-corporate.../36466

Greenpeace has the full text of the Lewis Powell Memo available for review, as well as analyses of how Lewis Powell's suggestions have impacted the realms of politics

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Hmmm, damn good point.

Some neocons (not that they count) believe that the Cold War was actually WW III. So, if we were to differentiate between a cold war and a hot war as being in the use of bullets, tanks, etc. then your example would be Cold War II. But if we were to throw them all together, then I guess we're on the verge of WW V. Damn, how confusing. ;-)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33475) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

It has been a hot war - plenty of killing being done in the names of the undead.


[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Yes, Zen, yes you have advocating killing. Unless killing Assad doesn't count as "killing." (What?) From your last comment:

"let us kill Assad, I say."

Not to mention various random comments over the last couple months about cutting off people's heads.

And you're still assuming it was Assad that used gas. Remove your blinders, Zen. Come into the light.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

Whereas the abuses of the regime of Bashar al-Assad have included the brutal repression and war upon its own civilian population, resulting in more than 100,000 people killed in the past two years, and more than 2 million internally displaced people and Syrian refugees in Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq, creating an unprecedented regional crisis and instability;

so if we pass this resolution that means Assad is responsible for those deaths ?

Whereas the Assad regime has the largest chemical weapons programs in the region and has demonstrated its capability and willingness to repeatedly use weapons of mass destruction against its own people, including the August 21, 2013 attack in the suburbs of Damascus in which the Assad regime murdered over 1,000 innocent people, including hundreds of children;

Speculation on chemical weapons reserve and alleged allegation not backed by the international committee

Whereas in the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2003, Congress found that Syria’s acquisition of weapons of mass destruction threatens the security of the Middle East and the national security interests of the United States;


this senate resolution should be called list of baseless accusations


[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago


I got yer homework hangin."

I'm not an anarchist. What's the matter, Zenny? Afraid to click on a few links and maybe learn something? 'cause you obviously haven't been. You still insist it's a FACT that it was Assad who did the gassing.

I'll say it again. Stick to poetry, Zen. You don't know shit about politics and your worldview sucks. Blind, deaf and partisan.

Here, suck on this:


Yeah, bombing Assad will fix all the problems. Riiiight.


[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

"So . . . you automatically assume killing Assad is more killing - never mind the fact that there is already a daily toll of killing far in excess of a single individual.

It is entirely possible that killing Assad will in fact result in much less killing on a daily basis. Far less than was seen on August 21."

Zen, I find it hard to believe that you think it would be possible to "only kill Assad." Or that simply killing him would automatically stop the bloodshed over there. I really don't understand why you haven't done your homework, for if you had, you'd realize that this potential "surgical strike" would only be the beginning of something far bigger and a lot worse than what's been going on in Syria over the last couple years.

If it were possible to just get rid of the one man, and that would magically stop the bloodshed, I'd agree with you 100%. But I hate to bust your bubble, my man. That's not how it will be.


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

dying didn't work to well for the brotherhood in Egypt

the national community has forgotten them

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

"This senate resolution should be called list of baseless accusations."

I agree.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

one would think the senate would take itself seriously

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

It's hard for me to figure out just what they're thinking.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

they're probably glad they avoided facing the egyption massacre


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

Karl Marx "Religion is the opium of the people"



[-] -1 points by TropicalDepression (-45) 4 years ago

Theres isnt anything to bring. You are either for more war or you arent.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

Exactly. But then, you are talking to the guy that thinks more killing = less killing. Sometimes I wonder about that boy.



[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Wow. A whole post without a reference to, eerrmmm, political leanings.

Impressive stuff, indeed.


[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Sanity is a relative term, and a construct of the philosphically retarded.

Your case requires more than a cursory glance, ZD.


[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Your own posts are all the proof we require.

Onwards and upwards. Once more into the breach, fine soor.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

@Who's this "we" you're speaking for?

are you their leader and if so, why?

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

I am at one with the universe.

That means you are me, and we are three.

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 4 years ago

There goes suzie again, trying to "build" a case for an organized gang of stinklers.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Did you read your link?

(quote) Mr Joyce moved from the Senate to contest the seat of New England for the Nationals and was guaranteed the win after sitting independent member Tony Windsor decided not to recontest. (unquote)

Pretty easy to win a one-horse race.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Actually, we're all one, so it would be more appropriate to speak for yourself. and I think you know what I was getting at, besides, the universe doesn't care what zen thinks, nor you and I.

Nice to see you're getting a taste of what I get attacked for pointing out.

I've been attacked viciously over it in fact.


I wonder if those same folks will attack you in a similar fashion?

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Today's our day to see if Roopert's activities are any more (or less) effective than his attempts to save his flagship news rag in the old Dart.

Oh, and I'm not aware of any concerted effort to discredit your efforts here.


[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

I've never had a look at twitter.

Is it effective? Can you measure this effectiveness?

I much prefer boots on the ground approaches.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

congratulation soldiers

all the enemy is slaughtered

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Tell that to Seal team six.

[-] -3 points by TropicalDepression (-45) 4 years ago

Toss in Chomsky too you political hack. Or anyone with half a brain at least.

Now go drink your 24 oz soda like a real rebel.


[+] -4 points by cruisecontrol (-49) 4 years ago

Builder, in some folks' leftopia, .gov is here to protect you from yourself. Who needs a brain or common sense ?

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 4 years ago

Still stuck on that whole left/right myth?

Should have joined the military, if your focus is that narrow.

[-] -1 points by cruisecontrol (-49) 4 years ago

You brought up nanny state. That is certainly not a rightwing construct.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

enough with the false dichotomy

[-] -2 points by cruisecontrol (-49) 4 years ago

Oh my..I've been away for a few days. Has the forum gotten on Shoes, Zen, Bensdad/wsmith et al, and girlfriday for their endless partisan rants? Terrific! I can dig a non partisan forum for sure.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

i need a job

[-] -3 points by cruisecontrol (-49) 4 years ago

I just love your forum personna, MH. Heaven forbid you could make 2 replies on a thread coherent to the conversation. Yet you have lasted here since the start with a karma score to make some drool, with your non-sensical posts.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 4 years ago

I often refer to the original post when commenting on a linear thread to try to guild the topic

but here conversation is handled through appending responses


[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago


[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

That's what Germany's doing.

Are you that surprised that it gets little press over here?


[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

"It's about time someone started to popularize green . . ."

Germany is the first nation to even attempt transitioning to renewable energy, and they are highly successful.

The next step will be the first city to outlaw combustion engined passenger cars entirely.

Neil, is just explaining how we don't NEED fossil fuel, even now.

At this point it should be all about electric/bio fuel hybrids.



[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

I must have struck a nerve.

I got voted down for pointing out the simple truth.

It's in everyone's parking lot.


[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

The soap opera of the banned, is still very much in evidence.

Trolls of a feather, must cheat together, I guess.

It's not they care...............yet.

It's a good thing that there are those that do, and they are rising up all over the World.


[-] -1 points by Stormcrow1 (-25) 4 years ago

Seems to me being worried about the Keystone Pipe Line is a drop in the bucket compared to just how much petroleum and natural gas is being transported across this country.

US Pipeline Map


When pipeline is safer than rail


Trains carry millions of gallons of oil across ME




[-] -2 points by Stormcrow1 (-25) 4 years ago

First off if you have a problem with petroleum products you need to live in a cave because everything made today comes from oil.

Secondly just because you dislike "tar sands" being shipped in rail cars doesn't mean spit because if pipelines aren't built rail cars will take its place.

Third - you had better realize that this country is a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way off from being "green".

You will probably never see it in your lifetime but you may suffer the expense for it to happen years from now.

Unless you muster up thoousands upon thousands of protesters what you post here regarding this topic is pointless.

Doesn't mean squat with other millions of Americans who are out there burning off millions of barrels of oil and looking for the next greatest gadget they can purchase.

Why frustrate yourself with putting so much energy into this subject when in fact you could take that energy and put it into something more productive to improve you life.



[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Here's more info on the human lives at stake.


I posted on this a while back and putting a follow up here seems appropriate.




[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Actually, you get to vote on what you think of it.


Yeah, I know. The option I wanted to use wasn't there either.


[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Sounds like a good idea to get those names and faces out there, but I fear that the longer and harder you look, the more unwieldy the list will become.


[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

I'm sure you could get some help on the Canadian end here.


You will find American "investors" involved, all along the way to the refineries.


[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

You will find a high level of support against the tar sands in Canada.



Although there, as here you find only the lowest level of reporting in the MSM.


[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

It's like the 2 years of ongoing protest at the rotunda in Wisconsin.

You're not supposed to know.

You're supposed to pretend it's over.


[-] 0 points by TropicalDepression (-45) 4 years ago

One of the big reasons Im a fan of national days of action- it makes it harder for the national media to ignore it.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

I don't watch enough news to know who they are.................................:(

It's amazing though that they completely skip over a 2 year long ongoing protest.

I wonder how much it's costing the Koch's to keep out of the news cycle?



[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Tar Sands Timmy, does NOT approve of this message!!


[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

The rail industry has met regulators half-way on the NTSB's recommendations.

Fifty counts of involuntary manslaughter. Really. How the hell is this not so?


[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 4 years ago

Transcanada says 13,000 jobs but won't say if they are long term or short term.

The freaking report that was done awhile back, that everybody in congress and the president has seen is freakin; accurate. There should be zero confusion about this.

Nail these people for criminal charges and they will change their shit sooner.




[-] -2 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 4 years ago

The Keystone Big Oil Scam is a horrendous display of Fraud, Greed and Cold-Blooded Indifference. It's Corporate Terrorism plain and simple and must be stopped!

Here are the problems:

1.) Big Oil owns the MSM, Fox Lies, the bible, God, Time-Warner, ad nauseam. For many years, they have been drilling the need (or Thneed, for mattlholk) for Ever More Oil, any how, any way, or we'll all die in a torturous $100 per gallon lake of fire, forever and ever, into the heads of every man, woman, child, cat and dog alive, and soon to be born.

2.) A whole bunch of us (drillees) believe Keystone will provide needed gas and jobs.

3.) We/they don't believe (and won't believe) the gas will go to China, no significant amount of jobs will result, it's any more hazardous than the Alaskan Pipeline ~ which provided a bunch of jobs and pays Alaskans SWEET dividend checks.

4.) Big Oil will run Pro-Keystone Commercials ~ like the Pro-BP Gulf Clean-Up Commercials ~ and railroad Keystone through.

5.) Protests will be handled by (business donation recipient) Terrorist-Attack Trained & Armed Police ~ tasted during Occupies nationwide ~ methamphetamine drugged or craze-selected recruiting or both.

Anything more than a mouthful is wasted.

It's a hard row to hoe. We should have begun on the first Earth Day.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago


Hush now, there's certain people that will remain in "dissent".

No one taught them that lies are not dissent, they are just lies.


[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 years ago

Four. You're forgetting the ancillary pollution. The stuff that poisons the land and water and thus the life that lives there.


[+] -4 points by pullmyfinger33 (-37) 4 years ago

Asshole liberals would prefer we send billions of our dollars to the Middle East to fund terrorism, instead of obtaining oil and creating jobs right here in America. Dumb ass hippies energy policy is this..."What comes form the ground...stays in the ground"

Uh Oh..look another earthquake caused by fracking..

Cuckoo cuckoo