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Forum Post: CIA & Pentagon Backed Groups Fighting Each Other In Syria

Posted 5 years ago on March 28, 2016, 7:26 p.m. EST by Nevada1 (5843)
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[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''In an election flush with conspiracy theories, here's one that's real: Both major party nominees, as well as the journalists who cover the election and moderate the debates, are actively conspiring to avoid talking about the fact that the United States is waging war in at least five countries simultaneously: Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, and Somalia.

''In the first two presidential debates, our involvement in the Syrian civil war was briefly discussed, as was ISIS in vague terms, and the Iran nuclear deal, and Russia's mischief-making in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, and Libya, though mostly in the past tense, focused on our 2011 intervention to depose Moammar Gadhafi and the subsequent attack on American government facilities in Benghazi a year later.

''In failing to do so — in allowing Trump to get away with ignorant ranting, and Hillary Clinton to avoid having to defend or criticize President Obama's profligate deployment of military force across wide swaths of the globe — the press actively contributes to making our politics stupider. Instead of enlightening members of the general public, it entertains them. And so the wars drag on and multiply, fought by an all-volunteer army thousands of miles away, barely touching the lives and thoughts of the vast majority of voters. - from ...

dulce bellum inexpertis ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23518) 5 years ago

Our military budget is the reason why we can't have nice things in this country. Things like infrastructure, mandatory vacation and sick time, a living wage, free education, universal healthcare, retirement, etc.

So much of our money goes to these military debacles that we can't afford the things that make for a decent life for the millions of people who live here. Only the rich get richer, backed up by establishment politicians who benefit from the wars, along with the 1%.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Bernie Sanders: addressed so much of what you say above; had the Democratic Party Primaries stolen from him; had his followers thrown under The Corporate Bus; and then ... endorsed Hitlery Rabid Clinton because of ''Lesser Of Two Evils''ism''!!! I'm still dealing with it!! But not very well, lol! So - the question is:

''Even if Our Revolution is successful in electing its candidates in the coming years, the country will have a lot of work to do. There are many progressive groups and, as Nonprofit Quarterly said, Our Revolution has "a lot to prove." But whatever its fate, it should not discourage other efforts at mobilization, in and out of electoral politics.''

''Further, and perhaps more importantly, the existence of Our Revolution ought not to discourage more direct forms of resistance. "It is crucial that pressure continues to come at the grassroots, not just in elections," Zuckerman said. Indeed, at the launch of Our Revolution, Bernie Sanders cited the labor movement, the civil rights movements and other important acts of resistance in America. Most of this change did not come from the voting booth, but from outside of it.''

respice; adspice; prospice ...

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Special Ops Troops to Syria - Horrified Seymour Hersh Reacts to Obama's Plan to Send 250 More'' [DemocracyNow! Video + Transcript]

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''The Real Story of Our Decades-Long Foreign Policy Disaster That Set the Middle East on Fire'', by Patrick L. Smith:

''The brilliant Andrew Bacevich explains why our massive march to folly in Middle East has to be seen as one war.''

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23518) 4 years ago

Watch RT.com at 9pm tonight. John Pilger's documentar "A Coming War on China"

Go to: https://www.rt.com/ and click "Live"

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 4 years ago

John Pilger's extraordinary documentary - "The Coming War On China" is an incredible piece of work. Here's a link to the full doc. but I'm not sure how long this link will be extant. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

bella horridis matribus ...

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23518) 4 years ago

Pilger is a warrior for mankind. One thing I took away from the documentary was this thought about China:

While America boasts about how free it is and how great capitalism works here, we know our government is really run by capitalists comprised of corporations and the wealthy and that they mainly look out for their own interests, not the interests of the American people.

The difference in China is that though they have a capitalist economic system and many capitalists, corporations and wealthy people, they can never run the Politburo. The Politburo maintains control of the government and runs the capitalists.

It's a kind of vice versa to how things work here. Just an interesting observation, I think.

I highly recommend these two links:

Pilger's documentary, "The Coming War On China":


John Pilger as a guest on "The Big Picture":


[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 4 years ago

''While America boasts about how free it is and how great capitalism works here, we know our government is really run by capitalists comprised of corporations and the wealthy and that they mainly look out for their own interests, not the interests of the American people.

''The difference in China is that though they have a capitalist economic system and many capitalists, corporations and wealthy people, they can never run the Politburo. The Politburo maintains control of the government and runs the capitalists.''

The above words should actually be a...HUGE epiphany for Americans and frankly most other ''Western Democracies''!!! Trust you to pick out the Core Concept, with such clarity!! China's history may seem to be about Emperors etc. BUT it's their meritocratic Mandarin class who have actually run the country for many millennia & that class is not ossified and hereditary but taken from right across the population by public examinations open to all! The Communist Party has taken this very same system & applied now.

John Pilger's doc. link has been removed by You-Tube .. probably for copyright reasons but this is GR8:

fiat lux...

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago
[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Well Nevada1, where to start .. on this really rather important forum-post? However, how about this first?

Re. your OP, well I'm tired buddy so I'm going let my previous comments and other links, do the talking:

I may try to elaborate and reply more substantively later but you can see the dots and join them easily!

Despite the Corporate MSM Propaganda - things in Syria are not fkt up by accident! Nope! It is design!

multum in parvo et omnia causa fiunt ...

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Yes, by design. Thanks for good links.

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

The dark realities of Syria roll on as the major US allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia, continue their proxy and direct wars against both Syrians and Kurds. The shocking contents of your video - will NEVER be shown on Western MSM. Also fyi ...

fiat lux; fiat justitia; fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

I remember going to an ant-war rally in Midtown 3-4 years ago. There was a young lady there with very sad eyes. She was holding a sign which read, BORN IN WAR... LET'S GIVE SYRIAN CHILDREN A BETTER CHILDHOOD THAN I HAD. She gave me her approval to take her picture. I look and think about it often...

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''A virulent if familiar censorship is about to descend on the US election campaign. As the cartoon brute, Donald Trump, seems almost certain to win the Republican Party's nomination - Hillary Clinton is being ordained both as the "women's candidate" and the champion of American liberalism in its heroic struggle with the Evil One.

''This is drivel, of course; Hillary Clinton leaves a trail of blood and suffering around the world and a clear record of exploitation and greed in her own country. To say so, however .. is becoming intolerable in the land of free speech. '' - from ...

I really think that you (and other readers) will find this article Very Interesting.

multum in parvo ...

[-] 2 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

Thanks. That was interesting. The Clintons are despicable people......

[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''President Killary - Would The World Survive President Hillary?'' by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts:

spero meliora ...

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''The CIA first aligned itself with extremist Islam during the Cold War era. Back then, America saw the world in rather simple terms: on one side, the Soviet Union and Third World nationalism, which America regarded as a Soviet tool; on the other side, Western nations and militant political Islam, which America considered an ally in the struggle against the Soviet Union.

''The director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan, General William Odom recently remarked, “by any measure the U.S. has long used terrorism. In 1978-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism – in every version they produced, the lawyers said the U.S. would be in violation.” - from ...

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

More good links. So much happening today in Turkey. This might leave what remains of US proxy army ISIS, isolated.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Re.''Turkey" & ''US proxy army ISIS'' & per OP; urgently see this excellent & essential 4m Video:

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Wow, MSM (CBS) telling of ISIS proxy army.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Re. US/IS, more evidence for what we know already ...

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Thank you for link. This is one that everyone should see. ISIS with US Army Tattoo.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Yes, strange.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Frustrating The War Lobby'', by Stephen Kinzer:

Which starts: ''BY TRYING TO block a $1.15 billion arms sale to Saudi Arabia, a bipartisan group of US senators is challenging one of the key forces that shape American foreign policy: the arms industry. Their campaign shines a light on the role that this industry plays in whipping up fears of danger in the world. How do Americans know that Saudi Arabia is a peace-loving country dedicated to fighting terrorism? The same way we know that Russia is a snarling enemy on a rampage of conquest: The arms industry tells us so.''

And ends: ''Not surprisingly, the arms industry has mobilized its considerable power on Capitol Hill to block this Senate resolution. “We are fighting General Dynamics,” one supporter of the resolution said last week. A vote could come soon. Blocking this arms sale would be a rebellion against one of Washington’s richest lobbies. That would send welcome chills through the corridors of power in the Pentagon, the war industry, and Saudi Arabia.''

Strange! Getting Stranger!! Heading for Strangest!!!

e tenebris, lux?

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Yes, block the arms sale.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''Time to stop the killing, stop the carnage, stop the war and .. get the best terms for peace we can get. For continuing this war, when the prospects of victory are nil, raises its own question of morality.'' from:

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Thank you for the fine words, and link.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''How the US Armed-up Syrian Jihadists'', by Alastair Crooke:

''The West blames Russia for the bloody mess in Syria, but U.S. Special Forces saw close up how the chaotic U.S. policy of aiding Syrian jihadists enabled Al Qaeda and ISIS to rip Syria apart, explains ex-British diplomat Alastair Crooke.'' Can't recommend this insightful article enough to you & readers, tbh.

cave - bellum se ipsum alet ...

(beware the war that eats itself)

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

"Then the CIA militia and the Special Forces militia will kill each other". Excellent article.

[-] 2 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

Yep .. ''Reality Check: Proof U.S. Government Wanted ISIS To Emerge In Syria''

is still a shock to the system for US-MSM, which is why they ignore him mostly! + fyi:

fiat pax ...

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Hopefully, some of our frustrations with our CIA fighting our Pentagon will be diminished. Turkia has secular armed forces that can clean house from time to time to prevent it from lapsing to an Islamist autocracy. The wimpy U.S. diplomacy has generated much unnecessary setback.

Perhaps playing golf is actually the sublimation of frustrated wimpy unconsummated lust. It's not in U.S. interest to take side in Turkia's internal coup d'état. Keep 3€ those 18 holes of Pussy Galore to relieve the sexual frustration. Stick the nose away from the stinky brew and repeat this after going commando with the Slick dragon, "I did not inhale. I gave out chiquita bananas to the children of the republic."

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

100 children have been killed in Aleppo since last Friday.

Enough is enough!

There is no easy way to end this war, but there’s only one way to prevent this terror from the skies -- people everywhere demanding a no-fly zone to protect civilians.


[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Aside from SAMs, destroying the jet fuel depots for refueling the bombing aircraft can impose a no-fly mandate, too. This may be considered less bellicose than shooting down the aircraft directly. Another option is to destroy oil refineries and pipelines, oil-product convoys, etc. If the Russians can hit the humanitarian aid convoys, the coalition of the give-two-bits can hit oil convoys, too.

I don't like the fact that the petition calls for the U.S. to act. The U.S. had participated in U.N. peacekeeping mission in Beirut and more than two hundred marines were murdered for nothing. That whole area is still a big mess despite the peoples there despising foreigners intervening. Continuing conflicts are a form of freedom for the peoples there.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Another option is to destroy oil refineries and pipelines, oil-product convoys

Add to global warming? ( you know because the USA gov is so concerned about that and all - heh)

I think NOT !

Spike the oil wells with that oil eating bacteria.

Like THAT would ever happen.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

The continuing conflicts there may be Nature's way of controlling population because it was a drought resulting in food shortage that had touched off the protests and demonstrations which were then brutally crushed. Perhaps there were just too many mouths to feed, born from oppressed women used as sex comforters/sperm repositories, and egg-laying machines by the Islamic patriarchy(four women for one man - from where do the other three men get their sexual comfort when their testosterone rages for sex and war? German women in Cologne know sex and war as rapes). Planned Parenthood services or the destruction of the patriarchy could have saved the peace because harems breed excessive free testosterone unharnessed by oxytoxin.

All men and women ARE subject to the laws of supply and demand. Excessive supply of human lives cheapens the price of a human life. There's no pretending that human lives are priceless. The militaries worldwide all know of and use this fact.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Spiking the oil wells with that oil eating bacterium can get out of control. All biological control can require control themselves so we need control for the controls, control for the control for the controls, and so on.

The simplest method and one having the least impact to civilians' usage of oil products is to deliver a kaboom to a jet fuel tank. Sprinkle a little bit of white phosphorus, a little bit of strontium salt, and oxidant, ignite, and kaboom, we can have "The ragged men in ragged clothes, The silver thorn of bloody rose, Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow".

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Spiking the oil wells with that oil eating bacterium can get out of control.


Like global warming from burning millions of years collection of fossil fuel in a couple hundred years is NOT out of control?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 4 years ago

Trump penetrated. He knows that his days are numbered.

Pounding Laundry by the Swamp is a tougher nut than Jew Jerk.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

It's NOT out of control because we can keep the rate of depletion of fossil fuels rather CONSTANT as opposed to keeping the amount of fossil fuels constant.

This vaunted process is called Renormalization, used in High Physics (Quantum Field Theory) as well to tame infinities. Change your perspective and you can differentiate different kinds of infinities and use them for benefit. Remember financial erosion?

What's 1-1+1-1+1-1+1-...? It's 1/2, duh! I'm sure that Herr Drumpf understands this High Math, being a life-long miscreant of Nieuw Amsterdam. It's called breakthrough beyond the "infinities' limits." Immer 达渴他 Johnson

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

We can trade civilian deaths and injureds in the near future for more of the same in the farther future by delivering portable surface-to-air-missiles to and training the combatants to use them. That was how the Soviet Union's Red Army had been driven out of Afghanistan. The Mujahideen sent the Soviets home in body bags.

It's a low-cost(few additional human lives expended aside from current combatants whose deaths and wounded may well decrease) technical trade. The risk is that any and all civilian airliners may be threatened or shot down in the future should the missiles fall into the wrong hands. Think of the downing of flight MH17 over East Ukraine.

There can be a de-facto no-fly zone over Syria imposed using missiles which must be controlled and accounted for tightly to avoid post-conflict consequences to airliners.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Yet one more reason why Obama wants to shutdown the possibility of the Saudi's being sued over 911

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

The Mujahideen discovered that it could indeed kick the Soviet Empire out of Afghanistan. It therefore seemed rather possible to kick out the American Empire's military from the Holiest Islamic Land of Saudi Arabia as well.

2001-9-11 attacks grew out of Islam's prohibition of infidels' sacrilege of contaminating the Umma. Wahhabism promulgated worldwide by Saudi Arabia encouraged jihad against the infidels, including the U.S., the most important ally of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, without which Saddam Hussein would have become their Emperor.

Our soldiers' consumption of beer and sexy depictions amounts to sacrilege in Saudi Arabia. Our female soldiers' not wearing hijabs and niqabs to cover their hair, faces, and bodies while driving around in cars unaccompanied stirred up Saudi women's quest for the same rights. That's just more trouble for a medieval society thrust headlong into cheek-to-jowl contact with modern infidel Western culture.

Al-Qaeda, ISIS, al-Shebaab, (maybe) Boko Haram, etc. extremist groups ALL grew out of Islamic militancy indoctrinations funded worldwide with oil money. The war on terrorism is only a part of the worldwide war of cultures with Wahhabism being the most significant component. Iran allowed Russia to bomb targets in Syria using Iranian airbase. In fear of religious repercussions, Iran quickly condemned Russia's leaking that fact out to brag about its swagger and influence. The basing of Russian aircraft violated Iran's own Islamic rule so the prohibition of infidel military on the soils of the Umma is by no means restricted to Wahhabis such as al-Qaeda. Incoherent Iran (its military has the same issue of being a Willie as China's military) will be a problem, too, not just Saudi Arabia.

The following was similar to my childhood discovery on an island's beach the "elephant fish"(due to its "tusks"[really jawbones?] and enormous size) skeleton on the day when I was sunstruck on a remote island and later stranded in the sea: http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/blue-whale-skeleton-aenoptera-musculus-port-high-res-stock-photography/148311006

Can you feel its foreboding quality, from blue origin to brown destiny?

Tremendous oil wealth and medieval cultures/religions caused terrorism worldwide. Recalcitrant ideologues have only one surefire humane cure - a bullet into the mouth.

Getting off of using oil can curb terrorism's funding(ISIS had a gleaming fleet of brand-new Toyota pickup trucks that few Americans could match - how did THAT happen? Dakota Johnson, I feel your Wounded Knee! Everyone was born naked.).

[+] -5 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

RT is a known conspiratard news agency. One of the worst sources if you want good quality news based on reality. I guess you and shadz want conspiratard news though...

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago


[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

See... Anyone can criticize. Its when you ask them for their solution to their bitch that things get interesting.

This one here points to the NYT and WaPo as good sources for news lol. Talk about someone with their heads in the clouds.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

You made some good points here.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Agree - except - considering the source RT - while they may offer a clean look at the USA (well at least a not an all is rosy look) - RT also (like USA corpseoRATmedia) gives an unreal rosy spin to all things Russia.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Am aware that some have concerns about RT, so two other sources were included above.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

Sorry - I didn't mean to say that I had a problem with =

" CIA & Pentagon Backed Groups Fighting Each Other In Syria " even if it came from RT - I was just sayin - ya know? {EDIT}=

USA corp(se)oRAT media saying USA USA WERE # ! WERE #1 and most of the rest of the world is shit most especially Russia!

RT does the same - kinda - that was all I was saying.

[-] 2 points by Nevada1 (5843) 5 years ago

Perhaps, we are seeing war between two branches of the USG. Maybe this is why various USG agencies have armed up with so much ammo. This could be a good thing. A "Hunger Games" setting for rotten government people.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 5 years ago

CIA thinking a Pentagon backed group is terrorist and visa-versa?

UNTHINKABLE - these agencies share intelligence and operations with eachother - RIGHT? (just kidding - I know they don't unless under extreme duress)

EDIT = Funny thing though - looking at the history of some gov backed freedom fighters of yesteryear being current day terrorists - they (cia Pentagon) could both be right.

EDIT #2 = Huh - I wonder - do you think Homeland security is wondering "just what the hell kind of partnership this is supposed to be anyway? - murder suicide? "

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

It's incredible how many people still don't know/don't want to recognize that Bin Laden was/is a CIA asset.

The people will beg for more come Nov though.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

During the Cold War with the Soviet Union intervening in Afghanistan, the CIA's enemy was the Soviet Union and Osama bin Laden was an enemy of the Soviet Union. According to the logic of "my enemy's enemy is my friend," bin Laden was a friend of the CIA. Of course, the simple-minded logic is really inapplicable in such a highly fractured domain.

The Mujahideen meant "freedom fighters" embarking on a jihad against the Soviets. Of course, jihad directed against the U.S. is "terrorism."

[-] 4 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Exactly. And being that we were funding him, and he is a recognized leader, well, thats basically a CIA asset. Certainly the administration doesnt get involved in the all money laundering, etc.

Similar to just about every other "enemy" of the state we come across.

So, with that being said, who is currently doing our dirty work and will ultimately become an "enemy" when they have run their course or go rogue?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

I really doubt that the CIA had trusted Osama bin Laden enough to supply him and his followers with our Stinger missiles that made all the difference in the eventual withdrawal of the Soviets from Afghanistan. Osama had his own money to fund operations so the CIA probably did not have much control over him and his followers although some low-level assistance might have been rendered. His being a CIA "asset" may have been exaggerated.

Surface-to-air missiles (such as the Stinger missiles) can wreak havoc with civilian aviation in the wrong (probably Russian/pro-Russian insurgents') hands as the Russian Buk system's SA-11 downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 showed.

The U.S. could have supplied surface-to-air missiles to the Syrian opposition groups to impose a no-fly zone for the Syrian airforce when Assad crossed yet another "red line" but this potential loose SAM problem for civilian aviation probably nixed their deployment.

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Its a win-win though. They use the missiles the right way and we keep winning. They use it the wrong way and down a plane and we just do a pr campaign that it was by the enemy.

Its really no different than states partnering together in bigger conflicts. Its just when you want to keep it on the downlow you partner them with the CIA instead of the State Dept. Same shit basically imo.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Russia claimed that the Buk system that had downed MH17 belonged to Ukraine, not Russia. Report had that the pro-Russian insurgents in East Ukraine had captured a (Ukrainian) Buk system by overrunning an airbase before the downing. You should seek a media propaganda job with Russia because your thinking seems to be far ahead of Poo Tin the Great who seemed to think that if someone robbed or borrowed (maybe your or Poo Tin the Great's) gun and killed many people with it, you would be the one to be blamed for the murders.

We could supply SAMs together with some duds to Syrian opposition groups. Let the Assad regime capture the duds and have the insurgents ground his airforce with the real ones. If anything bad happens, blame it on Assad. You have a genius for this!

Speaking of states partnering together, the German and Russian Empires colluded in the 19th century to partition and annex Poland. That planted the seed of destruction that germinated in the 20th century, the bloodiest century of all.

Russia and Ukraine both came out of the former Soviet Union with Soviet arms. Anything bad happens to the world, we can blame it on the U.K. because we and the U.K. both came out of the former British Empire. Yeah, it's all India's fault!

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

I shall not disclose who are currently doing our dirty work because it's dirty for good reasons such as duplicity, hypocrisy, covering for a blown cover which covered a non-traditional Chinese-style "state secret," and lies that are correcting lies. However, I can surely tell you the Truth, "I am lying!"

Let's look at the past as the future in the shadows. Persia's Mossadegh nationalized assets of American oil company in Persia. The CIA had wet work done and got the Shah installed. Shah became brutally repressive but kept oil cheap because Iran[or U.S. proxy?] had internationalized assets of Iran, one of the greatest Middle Eastern oil companies. Eventually, crazy students and others (including many religious fanatics) seized the U.S. Embassy in Téhéran and held our personnels as hostages, violating international diplomatic protocols several times. In the olden days, even two countries going very shortly into a major total war first repatriate and were allowed to withdraw their diplomatic personnels in peace. The religious fanatics (but actually in some sense not as crazy as the students because they abide by some rules!) took power in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Saddam Hussein of Iraq was encouraged and used for counterbalancing Iran(Islamic) in the eight-years-long Iran-Iraq War.

The U.S. started the Iran/Contra Affair to kill many birds with one clandestine stone. Embassy hostages were freed despite the U.S. policy of not paying ransoms for hostages. Iran got U.S. weapons to fight Iraq which was illegal under U.S. law at the time. To cover it all up, the U.S. had to invade Panama and apprehend the drug kingpin, Manuel Noriega, and jail him. Hmm, is it really just a curious coincidence that we are hearing of the "Panama Papers" lately implicating potential money laundering and tax evasion, etc. through Panama?

Who has done dirty work (especially wet work) for the U.S. recently? Hint: Allies of the U.S. in the Middle East. Saddam Hussein went rogue when he was double-crossed but he was eventually hanged by his own people.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

So, indeed, you are a conspiratard.

You, DKAtoday, Nevada, shadz... The Conspiratard Crew...

[-] 4 points by Rollo (60) 5 years ago

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". Aristotle

Thrasy you're such a shameful establishment bootlicker.

What is your motive for being the Thought Police here?

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Disagreeing with conspiratards does not equal bootlicking or even agreeing with the establishment. The world is not black and white as you seem to propose.

It's not because I don't believe in Icke's Reptilian Overlords that I agree with everything Obama says.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Aristotle did not live in a time when conspiratardism was rampant and hurting intellectual thought, and the populace in general. It's come to a point where people die of measles because their parents buy into the anti-vaxxers and their junk.

Thought police? Is expressing my opinion equivalent to being a thought police. I never banned anyone here. I never stopped anyone from participating on the forum.

The only thought police here is jart and her Dan man who ban people left and right.

You and others are free to say what you want, and I encourage you to. Share your opinions, and defend them with everything you have. But, beware, I will counter if your opinions are junk.

Me saying that conspiratards have junk ideas is not being a thought police my friend. It's expressing a counter opinion to theirs.

You might be used to group think. Maybe you are a hippy and live in some commune where everyone always agrees. I find that boring.

[-] 5 points by Rollo (60) 5 years ago

Thrasy WTF is wrong with your thought process? Such nonsense.

Your response here is filled with convoluted, irrelevant, scattered thoughts.

I get it now. You've just demonstrated, it is best for you to think small. Otherwise your cognitive scattering occurs. Stay in your "Safe Place". Stick to reading your establishment news sources, and keep drinking plenty of Kool Aid. You'll be very safe there. Remember, Baby steps, my friend. Baby Steps.

leave the Big ideas to us Big Boys.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

You think conspiratards have big ideas? That says a lot about you. I guess some people think intellectuals come in the form of Alex Jones and David Icke. I disagree. I'd rather read the works of scholars than conspiracy crackpots. To each his own. If you want to follow the loons, that is your choice.

I won't stop you from dumbing yourself down.

[+] -5 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

If you think conspiratards are well educated, we have a problem my friend. I'm willing to bet most if not all conspiratards on this website have no university education. Probably just high school, even that is questionable. Only numbskulls and dim witted individuals buy into conspiracy crap found on the web.

Are you such a dim witted individual?

[-] 5 points by Rollo (60) 5 years ago

Mr Thought Police aka Thrasy, you are either unimaginably gullible, or a victim of Stockholm syndrome. Stop being so afraid to question authority. It's not like it's going to get you killed. On second thought, nowadays it just might.

There are many well educated people interested in conspiracy theories. If you were truely well educated, you would be more skilled at research and already know this. Hell, you don't even know how to abbreviate Ph.D. properly! Where did you get your "p.HD.", Diplomas-R-US.com?

Thrasy, hundreds of scientists, physicists, engineers, pilots, demolition experts, etc. question and discredit the 9/11 report and official story. I'm NOT going to spoon feed you like shadz does. Look it up! You're a big boy.

Google is you friend.

[-] 3 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

He said that he got an honorary "p.HD." degree from Princeton University. It implies that Diplomas-R-US.com may very well be Princeton University. His degree might have been a Freudian-slip contraction of "pee.High-Definition."

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

So, you are a Truthard?

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Not exactly a conspiracy my furry little friend, pretty much known by all.

What part of the nation do you live in anyways? Im in Tampa, from upstate NY.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Known by all?

Care to present proper evidence? Do you have a serious journalist in a serious agency sharing your point of view and having done research to back up those claims?

Oh wait... you don't.... You just have conspiratard websites who don't have to fact check anything because readers like you don't care about fact checking.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I don't live in US my friend.

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

OK, so you did leave then. I thought we already went over this?

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

He's in western Canada or beyond with a grudge against the Big Brother who is the so-called Leader of the Free World.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Some people study many years for journalism. They know how to research and amass data and evidence to paint a picture of how an event unfolded. Conspiratards dont' know how to to that. In fact, they don't even want to. They don't care about the truth, they just make believe.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Did you study journalism? New York has some great journalism schools. Maybe you stay in the British Commonwealth for fear of Gotham's reputation? I think Batman and Spiderman still call it home.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

What's really making it hard for info gathering is conspiratards soiling the web with false information, bad facts, made up stuff, ideological fantasies, etc...

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Quality information can be hard to find sometimes but I guess we just have to take a stab at it regardless of how murky things are. I take a good sip of vermouth before rendering my verdict.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I have no grudge against US. Although, I do agree it was the leader of the free world for a time, I don't think that is the case nowadays. US used to be the first on the case with rights for black people, or women, etc... but nowadays, for things like gay rights, they are late adopters. It terms of freedom, US is not longer the forerunner.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

The U.S. is slow in some areas of rights but do you know how much consternation and grief the U.S. homosexual/gay/lesbian/transgender/bisexual/queer turns have already caused amongst its allies, friends, frenemies, non-aligneds, and enemies?

Too much too fast can cause unnecessary breakages. Even some states in the U.S. are working hard to undermine the recent victories at the federal level. Amongst foreign states the U.S. is probably viewed as being degenerate by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Slovenia, Ukraine, India, Uganda, China, and on and on as far as these rights are concerned. I accept our Supreme Court decisions because I uphold the U.S. Constitution. As long as the decisions came from a legitimate constitutional process, my religious and personal beliefs don't matter at all. It takes much time for values to change. In general, I think that we have grown more tolerant, better, and more merciful as a species over the millennia.

If you don't hold grudges against the U.S., maybe you hold grudge against jart for not accepting your code. You seem so inclined to nail tight the lid of the coffin of OWS. Who cares if it's still alive or not? Is God still alive or not? People have been arguing for centuries and millennia. Let's say that God is alive for the ones who believe, and dead or irrelevant for others who don't. Isn't that freedom for all? OWS is dead and living in the heart of Man(hattan)!

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I agree, to each is own. I express an opinion, and I don't ask you to share it. You should learn to think for yourself by weighting the opinions of others, facts, etc...

[-] 3 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Ever since my epiphany of "My body talks and I must listen well" when I was taking bad medicine that was eventually banned, I went with the root information much more and found it far more dependable than derived sources. Any expert or authority can be wrong, very wrong, and dead wrong.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Authorities are often wrong, that's why you have to look for evidence and facts, and not appeal to authority.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

I agree. It's getting harder to sift out the root information nowadays because the authorities have caught on to social media and started creating their own ether-spheres to surround their dirty laundries. Sometimes they just use a white-noise generator like God did at the Tower of Babel to confuse their peoples' tongues. Can you hum, "Ommmmm..." balancing on only one leg with your eyes closed and not fall down? Yeah, it's all India's fault!

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Mad at jart for not accepting my code? I never submitted code for her to accept. 

The death of OWS is important to realize if we want to rally our forces and move on to other types of activities. That's exactly why Micah White wrote The End of Protest. To give us a new playbook. A new way of doing activism, because the OWS way is dead.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

"To each his own" Jesus is dead and living in the hearts of Man!

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

No, I never left. I never lived in US.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Thats neat. Which one of these is you?


[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

That's for you to find out.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Did you get an honorary degree from Princeton?

[-] 3 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

He does deserve one for snobbery which fits in very well with the stuck-up Wall-Street stooges from sucky Princeton.

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I did.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Whom different agencies ally with is often Top-Secret/Special-Compartmented-Information due to the sensitive nature of the operations (to preserve deniability as the U.S. was not officially meddling in Syria before). As Donald Rumsfeld had said, "Things happen" so what's so surprising if the CIA and the Pentagon were backing allies who fight each other? Compartmented basically means keeping it living in a drum. (If you were a combatant, whom do you fight on the battlefield? The ones who shoot at you, duh! That was how the U.S. soldiers were determining enemies out there in Afghanistan - live-bait patrolling and shoot back at the ones shooting.)

That's how the 9/11 attackers succeeded, aside from managerial editing and turf defense.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Worse, it's actually well known for its conspiratard mumbo jumbo. Their news is barely researched, sensationalist, and it it's anti-US they'll say it no matter how dumb and whatever conspiracy theory crap it is. They invited Alex Jones, Icke, Ventura, etc... as journalists.

You have to be a retard to take RT seriously.

Are you such a retard DKAtoday?

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Which sites do you suggest?

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

There are many good sources, RT is not one of them. It's actually one of the worst. Pretty much any news source will be better. Google is your friend, you can always refer to it to find good unbiased news sources. A simple search is all you need.

Here are some links to get you started:


I like the Washington Post my self, New York Times, stuff like that.

RT is a known bad site. Really bad.

It's basically made for conspiracy theorists like shadz and nevada. They'll talk about any rumour as if it was news. No fact checking at all.

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

I don't put the WP or NYT really any higher in the categories of honest journalism.

RT will dive into things that the NYT and WP refuse to cover, so I guess you really need a balance of them?

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I agree balancing is good, but I absolutely recommend using another source than RT for that. RT is just bad. It's recognized as a conspiracy theory heaven, news is badly research, many false claims have been made by it, etc... There is no reason to use RT as a source, unless you don't care if your news is fiction.

But, it's your choice. Some people like Nevada and shadz don't care from what or who they read. They'll just gobble up anything. If you're like them, then RT is good enough for you i guess.

For fun, you might want to read:



[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Do you like Zerohedge?

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

No, it's a garbage conspiratorial site.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

This is too funny, watching someone point out the Washington Post and NYT as preferred reading while trashing a financial site like ZH.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Do a little research. The opinion of Zero Hedge is quite bad across many sources. For one, their articles are anonymous. A very bad sign. And it is a conspiratorial website.

If you like it that's fine by me. It's your choice if you want to feed garbage infos to your mind.

Just do a bit of research about Zero Hedge. You'll see it has a bad reputation.

Serious scholars don't read trash like that.

You want to be a serious scholar, or a conspiratard?

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

No offense but iyo serious scholars read the NYT and WaPost? Come on man...

Some of their stuff is good but their analysis of our national issues is always garbage, totally complicit in the corruption.

Are you a Yanis fan, you might like this: http://www.zerohedge.com/print/528168

Also, please don't tell me that you really think we dumped OBL in the sea. Pleeeeeease don't tell me you fell for that line of garbage. Even most of the military I know doesn't buy that one..

Maybe that's why you are so loyal. You never spent anytime in the military to get a first hand account of it all? I mean, you did leave the USA because it's not all its cracked up to be, right?

[-] -2 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

I spent time in the army, and I did not leave US.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not a fan of conspiratardism.

If you are afflicted by that sickness as shadz and nevada are, then I can only hope you find a cure sooner than later.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

I would put the NYT and WaPo as fairly afflicted and sick as well.

[-] -1 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Faire enough.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Besides, I honestly have no desire to be "a scholar"... most of the PHDs I know readily admit that when you dive that far into a subject you tend to end up basically clueless in most other areas of your life. I know phds that can barely tie their shoes lol.

They also tend to gobble up the government propaganda more so than the rest because they have a very nice income and really no desire/time to dissect whats true and whats not. They are good ants that do their jobs and go home at night.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

BTW - You must make the difference between believe something the government says, and believing conspiracy theories. For example, you could not believe what the government said about the killing of Bin Laden (I happen to believe the government on this - no reason not too, and it does't really matter much anyway.), and still not believe conspiracy theories about Bin Laden's death (or fake death), etc...

Believing in conspiradardism is the dumbest thing you can do with your mind.

It's a zillilon times dumber than believing everything a government says - which is also really dumb.

If you want to be a scholar, then stop caring about the source (government, or others), and start caring about evidence. Demand evidence from your government, demand evidence from conspiratards, etc.. Demand evidence from anyone who tells you a story.

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

I deal with people all day, every day. One moment people from the most challenging neighborhoods in Tampa, the next people that probably pay more in taxes than I even make. Its always been like this for me.

With that being said, I have a few people I deal with/have dealt with that simply perpetual liars. On everything. Sometimes huge lies that really mess up people's lives.

This is basically the same as government. Granted sometimes things do just happen. Sometimes bombs do go off because people are pissed off, its not all a false flag (this nation is totally terrified at this point, btw, gobbling up this crap the state is pushing 24/7)...

I don't have access to the amount of data to judge them one way or another on some things, like 9/11. All I can go off of is the amount of engineers Ive met that said it was crap, the pilots Ive spoken to personally who said it was crap, the people Ive spoken to that were in DC that said it was crap.

When you are dealing with a perpetual liar, you end up just writing them off. Our gov lies on a daily basis to us. The money is a lie, the stock market is a lie, their plans are a lie, their stats are a lie, the news is nothing but half truths and truth avoiding, etc etc etc.

Just like a friend that says their other half is cheating because of XYZ, you never know what goes on in anothers relationship. It is impossible for me, you or anyone else for the most part to base a logical conclusion about their nonsense.

None of us were in Iraq to truly judge it, none of us went to ground zero or the Pentagon to conduct out own analysis, were on that plane that dumped OBL, etc. Creating an evidence based analysis is basically impossible with this stuff because you dont have access to anything you would need, you are just going off of stuff that a perpetual liar told you.

As far as dumping OBL, if you consider yourself politically fluent, then you better understand how they operate and how mass psychology works, state sponsored propaganda, etc. All part of making sure the ant farm doesnt overflow lol.

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

You don't need to be a scholar, an intellectual, or possess a Ph.D. to be a juror deciding on the verdict.

There are different standards of proofs, such as "beyond a reasonable doubt" for criminal (involving government or state as a party) cases, or "preponderance of evidence" for civil (not involving government or state as a party) cases. None of them are absolutely infallible but you must judge based on what you know and what you have experienced in life after conferring with others.

The Truth does not contradict and Truthiness can be breached through due diligence. Our government sometimes lies but it is often required by law to disclose that it has lied, in obscure places. It's as if the liar says, "I am lying!" Believe it or not, you must decide what that most likely is. The probable tends to happen.

Government lying is always a criminal case, by definition, to be held to a higher standard than civil cases - harder to convict the government but severer punishment if found guilty.

[-] 4 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

Replying here. You don't think that our interventions in the Mid East, and the hundreds of military bases we have around the World are in existence for maintaining peace and stability, do you?

[-] 2 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Some overseas U.S. bases are in existence for maintaining peace and stability. Others are not.

The U.S.A. has overcome Christian sectarianism and grown into religious secularism. It's not quite an oxymoron because the U.S.A. is definitively a secular state but it's also the most religious state in the world. There exists a strong firewall between religions and the state, thanks to our Framers and our adherence to our Godless Constitution built upon godly principles. Precisely due to this success, the U.S.A. suffers perennially from the naïveté of believing that other countries can overcome their millennial history of religious/state strifes. There comes the hubris for many interventions. We missed the vital distinction that we are exceptional because of our pledges to uphold the Godless Constitution. Zero in state is compatible with any non-zero in religions.

Our Middle East interventions have sprung from the wizards' brew of oil, oil, oil, Zionism, kleptocracy, colonialism, military/academic/industrial/cesspool complex, etc. all mixed in, with oil being the most dominant factor. Blood for oil is our faustian pact so that our low-information populace can ride in urban tanks such as Toyota Tundras, Humvees, etc. through city and town centers, be stuck in traffic blaring their horns at 110 decibels or more and spewing gasoline combustion by-products while talking on cell phones, texting, or running over the pesky pedestrians who dare to cross their paths.

[-] 3 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Well they lied about Vietnam, they lied about Iraq, they lied about Iran Contra, they basically lie about all the economic data, etc.

We won't even go into the half truths and truth avoidance that happens on a daily basis.

Where is the punishement?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

The punishment was, is, and will be meted out by the people. Putsches, forced resignations, abdications, jail terms, bullets to the head, knives up the anus, having the bucket kicked, beaten into pulp, clean and neat head-cut with a guillotine, having family members shot, chopped up, etc. have all been used at various times in various countries.

Sometimes the liars are subjected to ridicules, such as having their mega-Wiener cut off and stuffed to their mouths as bratwurst.

[+] -4 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

There's tons of data on 9/11. It's the most studied event in human history. Everything was explained in so much detail. They have the whereabouts almost on a daily basis of all terrorists for the last 2 years before the event. How the plans hit, what they destroyed in the buildings, how the buildings fell - all explained in extreme detail. It's ridiculous to believe the conspiratards on that one. Really ridiculous.

You don<t have much higher education do you? What line of work are you in?

No one should trust anyone at face value. Always look at evidence. But, if you start off with the assumption that you can't trust anything coming from government, then might as well do without a government. Complete anarchy is best I guess.

Don't forget, governments are made of people, and those people change. Some are honest, some are not, most are in between. The world is complex.

You speak like a conspiracy theorist. Saying the government lied 50 years ago on this particular event, so I can't trust it - when in fact, the people in government back then have nothing to do with those in government now, etc... You have to treat things on a case by case basis, not all generalized like a conspiracy theorist.

In any case, what you think is not really important to me. If you choose the path of conspiratards instead of that of scholars, the only person you are hurting is yourself. If that is your path, then enjoy listening to Alex Jones instead of people Like Noam Chomsky. What else can I say?

[-] 3 points by Viking (417) 5 years ago

"Lots of bright people in the army." That's true. But they cannot deny their culpability in the human misery that they propagate in their quest for Empire.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

If you're talking about the U.S. armed forces, they certainly have lots of bright people supporting their endeavors. The U.S. didn't get to be the strongest military power ever without having some serious brain power backing it. In fact, the U.S. won many wars on the grounds of brain power and not necessarily native-born brain power. Think of the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, yes, refugees fleeing from oppression!

I agree that the U.S. armed forces have crimson hands but where did the quest for Empire come from? Not the soldiers. Look at the sordid history of the German and Russian Empire conspiring repeatedly to partition and annex Poland (Polska). I don't think that the German, Russian, and Polish soldiers wanted to go to wars. The idiotic heads of states were the sources of the repeated clashes about the glory of the Vaterland und Mutterland.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Army also helps a lot of people.

You seem to have the kind of black and white thinking of conspiracy theorists.

Would you consider one?

Do you believe in chemtrails, that vaccination causes autism, etc...

[-] 1 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

Noam isn't exactly the brightest crayon in the box sometimes, in case you haven't noticed.

If you are so bright, how did you end up in the Army?

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1756) 5 years ago

I know a nice handful of intelligent people in the military.

I was just curious how you ended up there. You claim to be pretty intelligent.

[-] -3 points by fionachuckles (-375) from Fairview, NJ 5 years ago

Lots of bright people in the army. Some with high degrees of schooling. You did not know that?

I'm sorry to say, but you sound more and more like a moron. Get educated will you.