Forum Post: Capitalism Only Works In Theory
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 3, 2011, 1:56 p.m. EST by TrevorMnemonic
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Capitalism only works in theory. In theory it is assumed that assholes and sociopaths can't be on top.
If capitalism works, then why is everything going bankrupt? Our country is in debt 680,000 dollars per person, which is trillions of dollars. Our banks needed bail outs. The dollar is decreasing in value. The economy is depleting. Major companies are going broke. Most state governments are broke. And most of the people are in debt. This is capitalism. It's a fucking massive pyramid scheme where the guys at the top have everything.
We live in a monetary dictatorship. What else needs to happen for you to realize this?
People - People - where the hell is reason? moderation? Capitalism failed for the same reason communism did - the combination of power and greed. Capitalism can work and did work - since TR trust busted till Ronnie and Georgie convinced the lemmings to enjoy being trickled down on. CONTROLLED - CONSTRAINED capitalism built too many things to list in America - but it fell victim to greed and stupidity and lemmings. Our lack of restraint has given us rediculous CEO salaries, the world's most expensive medical system etc etc etc.
Don't be another lemming - throwing out everything may be very satisfying - but it is just plain stupid. Just for these two problems - cap CEO $ at 50 times the guy at the bottom. medicare for all.
Greed is a byproduct of Capitalism. Capitalism was never about reason or moderation.
Communism had never existed on a large scale(country/world). You don't even know what communism is. What you think it is, is what media want you to think. Trough, it's not about communism.
"cap CEO $ at 50 times the guy at the bottom. medicare for all." - making the monster to be more socialistic will not help, these system are incompatible and together working even worse then on their own. They also are both incompatible with our technological age.
"capitalism built too many things to list" - Well, it used people to build these thinks, it treated some of them as disposable tools in the hands of the few, it had its golden time, now it's obsolete and slowing us down, we need to learn to let go and see what future holds.
China has been a communist country for some time now... except if you go over there today you'll find raging capitalism. The crap in Mao's "Little Red Book" didn't work. Over time the Chinese have learned that regulated capitalism has some serious benefits. A good book to read is Paul Theroux’s "Riding the Red Rooster" about his travels by train all over China back in the 80s. I've been to China and talked to people about the cultural revolution, and the learning process the country has gone through. We don't want to go there!
I'm not promoting communism as a solution, through, I think it's necessary to let people know that they are judging a system they know nothing about. Check your definition. Communism is classless, moneyless, stateless economic system with commonly owned means of production. Communism is a next stage after socialism and has never been achieved sense socialism failed every time. China does not fit into the definition even partially. China never had communism, they had dictatorship based socialism and now they have dictatorship based socialist-capitalism. Socialist-capitalism has never worked properly, socialism and capitalism are incompatible.
communism is classles expect for those in power. "All animal are equal but some are more equal than others" Go read Animal Farm
the 'those in power' is exactly why it isn't communism. Like he above speaker i'm not promoting communism. But we must stop abusing the name to justify the flawed system we have today. Things will have to change drastically if we wish to survive. Bringing up communism and then bashing it each time a new system is suggested is counter productive.
In communist Russia, there were those in power that were rich,...................and then there was everyone else.
Your not adding anything new. Just accept that no one is asking to repeat Russia's example. There are plenty of way to have a non-capitalistic system without it being 'communism'.
Any examples of those systems that work and are not corrupt?
Only on small scale settlements. Most of the world is leaning toward capitalism at the moment.
That's because capitialism ( with all it's faults, no system is pefect) WORKS !!
If you don't mind people dying for no other reason then not having enough money. Or our environment being destroyed for profit. Sure it works for those select few that make a profit. Until there is nothing left to make a profit out of. Then what? Then even the richest of the richest can't sustain themselves anymore. No matter how hard they abuse the rest of society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society
"Greed is a byproduct of Capitalism": stupid shit like that negates your entire post.
Go read a book. Come back. Try again. Idiot.
Capitalism does work. We don't have true capitalism anymore. It's been hijacked by greed and corruption which has resulted in the thefts of people's money all the way to even taking their lives.
Go troll a book or something. Your hateful comments only make you seem foolish.
Also greed is only a byproduct of assholes and sociopaths.
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Capitalism rewards greed and corruption. It's main goal is accumulation of capital. If you disagree with it, then perhaps you need to read some books. And you you agree with is, then what do you disagree with? And your negative attitude is not constructive ether.
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I agree.
capitalism has not failed.
TY! Someone with a brain is typing!
Now tax Wall St. and relax with medicare for all and food stamps. There are no more jobs so get used to it!
I mentioned what our government calls capitalism. I know we don't have a capitalist economy anymore. we have what i call a monetary dictatorship. Those with the money have the power.
The capitalist occupation has driven so hard at this cliff for so long, they do not even consider just turning the wheel and changing direction. the current course leads right over an impossible tall cliff,. eco-collapse is well under way,. the rate of species extinction is a good measure of the rate of collapse,. it is not likely that we can now reverse this,. but we damn well should make the effort to try.
YES, we must try!!!! It is discouraging, but we must try.
Actually, it is capitalism. When corporation accumulate substantial capital, it buys it's own politicians and morph the capitalism into whatever it want it to be. It is "Power Of Capital" there for Capitalism.
That's why there is supposed to be a separation of Market and State.
It's impossible. The state is run by people and people participate in the market. There for, the market cannot be separated from the state. unless you sandbox the politicians in "witness protection" type of environment and ban their participation in the market for life. :D
They both need to be removed. No market. No state. Just volunteer participation.
The idea is voluntary participation in the market and even in government. I agree with that but I don't like the idea of a completely absent government. There is a need for some government.
If you voluntary participate in government and in the market, then why wouldn't you adjust it to your advantage. As long as market is there, the corruption will be there.
So how do we handle transactions? Do we use some sort of Darwinian system where the strongest and fastest collect up the resources and the rest of us can have the scrapes? That sounds worse than what we have.
"... Darwinian system where the strongest and fastest collect up the resources and the rest of us can have the scrapes..."
Is exactly what we have, right? That's just too obvious.
People are social creatures, they organize into cooperative communities/tribes with little to no violence in them. Survival of the fittest concept is disconnected from reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest
What we need is a similar concept comunities, where no one is taking advantage of anybody else. Each member of the community should be free to travel to other community and free to communicate with members from other communities to feel as a part of global community. We should use as much automation as possible so communities will share the resources with other communities. With our technological advancements, human labor is no longer required to sustain high standard of living for everybody with no labor required and any additional contribution would be just an addition. They do not exchange the resources, they provide the resources just because there is a supply of then and demand for them. Not because they need something in return. They would know exactly how much of the renewable resources is available and wouldn't deplete it or pollute their environment.
So because we are social science does not apply? Lions are social but they eat their young.
This is a myth. Lions only kill (don't eat) the offspring of their defeated rivals.
Not the point but ok.
Lions hardly ever eat their young, they do it only when they are pushed in the corner and have nothing else to eat. That's exactly what the market system does to people. Science does apply, science is the concept that just recently(a few dozen of years ago) make it possible. To have abundance of necessities. Here is a good read. http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com/2011/06/will-a-resource-based-economy-work/
Listen I believe that people will naturally find order in society too. I'm not trying to give you a hard time as much as I am conceding to the point that there is a need for some bit of government to protect the rights of the individual.
"when the greedy" - Well, first, the "greedy" were trained to be greedy because that's what the system is rewarding. So without the system, there wouldn't be many "greedy", if at all. Second, being greedy in a community where it considered abnormal is not gonna win you many friends. And even if there would be an exception, well, what could he possibly do in a environment where all the necessities are in abundance and everything is accessible? Would he start destroying the system? What do you think others would think about it? What could possibly trigger such behavior?
So what is different between that situation and the one we are currently dealing with?
"community is esoteric" - "government" is just as esoteric as "community". So it's all in the hands of people.
You see, if you trace why the government is broken deep enough, you can see that it's all point to the market system. I was trying to see what can be done to keep the market from corrupting the government, but it's impossible. The market corrupts everything and the idea that it can be prevented in a utopian dream. The market is a corruption in it's purest form.
You raise a good point about government. Let's suppose that we live in the anarchistic society, what happens when things start to go wrong, when the greedy that are strong enough to impose their will start to do so?
You are not giving me hard time, you sound like a reasonable person and I see potential in you to actually grasp the concept. I'm just trying to point you to the right direction.
"government to protect the rights of the individual" - like it protects the right of individuals who occupying the wall st. and Oakland Oh, wait, It protects itself. We have to abandon the individualistic mentality. We are not individuals, we are parts of a community. And when everyone understand it, the community will protect it's members. And eventually, with elimination of the market system, there wouldn't be a need to protect anybody from anybody as everybody would have access to everything they need.
The issue isn't need, it's distinguishing between want and need. For a great many people there is no difference.
Don't get me wrong I'm not by any means implying that the current government is not broken and lost but community is esoteric the individual is real and is what comprises a community. I understand your stated goal but it really is a utopian dream that is not likely to become a reality on a large scale. Don't forget government is also members of the community and they have gone haywire. Mostly because they have acted outside of the system not abiding by their own rules.
"You're right let me restate. I should have used the word hoard." - Ohh, I see what you mean. In a monetary system, it's easy to hoard a lot of money, not so easy with resources especially, when the extraction is designed with their renewable limits in mind and distribution and utilization are designed with equal access in mind. So it's just technical difficulties which I'm sure are not a big deal. Even if someone will somehow hoard some resource, he would have to find someone, who is willing to trade it for something that the one don't already have access to. He would also have to admit that he's hoarding the resource which I guess would be considered immoral behavior. People would also have to learn the history, what we can end up with(market/monetary system) if we start hoarding resources. But, hay, the system is not perfect, nothing is, it's just much better.
"if some in society can still plunder and have to be stopped" - plunder what? and why? if everything is already accessible for all. The word plunder would lose it's meaning with abolition of property ownership concept including intellectual property.
You're right let me restate. I should have used the word hoard.
"So what is different between that situation and the one we are currently dealing with?" - Umm, I did not expect this question after the conversation. :) It depends what similarities do you see? Because I see none.
Well if some in society can still plunder and have to be stopped by the rest of society it seems like it changes nothing except the structure by which it's all done.
"Capital" is merely a blanket term for goods, or tangible representation of labor (money). So you are essentially saying that all systems are inherently capitalistic. I suppose that is not too far from the truth, though beside the point a little. Even in a society with no "money", one could buy power from rulers with a variety of items, such as goods, or with labor, such as through prostitution.
'with no "money", one could buy power from rulers with a variety of items' - That would be feudalism if I'm not mistaken. Through it's beside the point. You are right, "capitalism" =/= "hoarding money", it could be "hoarding resources". "Money" is just a token/note that we use to represent something else. So "Capitalism" could be defined as "Concept of hoarding something with intention to trade it". So it's essentially what capitalism turns into when you just let it be. Pure "Free Market Capitalism" is infeasible, as it contradicts itself. For example, how can you enforce ownership or contracts without regulations of public law enforcement? How does property get into possession in the first place? Can you own the whole earth or air? And why not?
We are on the same page. Capitalism is something inherent in human nature, it is in us to collect things of value and trade them. Thusly, whomever gets the most resources rises to the top. Even in anarchistic post-soviet Afghanistan, the anarchy did not last long and was quickly overtaken by regional warlords.
I'm glad that you agree trough capitalism is not inherent in human nature, it is completely unnatural, it's tough to people from early childhood. There is no human nature, there is only human behavior which is determined by one's environment. Soviet Union isn't an example environment for developing proper behavior, it's far from it. It had money, income inequalities, class stratification, communication restrictions, food scarcity and some other problems. All of which prevent people from developing proper behavior. The system I'm thinking about(www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com) cannot be forced top down, it should emerge bottom up, all through it could be catalyzed with proper education, free communication channels, cooperation encouragement, stability and necessity abundance. Through the point that I'm making is, every system is following it's evolution path defined by it's principles and what we have now is a stage on capitalism's evolution path. Evolution is not imply positive/upgrade, it's just tend to a defined direction. If you visualize the path far enough, you will see total environmental destruction at the end of the path. And that's the main reason why we need to work on a sane system if we are planning to survive as a specie or as a planet.
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Umm. You might try looking it up.
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We need to keep a balanced economy, like we used to have before Reagan. Too much Socialism is unbalanced, Too much Capitalism is unbalanced.
all economic theories work, as theories. simply because they dont account for one huge external factor. the humans acting within each economic theory are not predictable, and are often drawn towards greed and corruption.
socialism, capitalism, libertarianism, and all the other -isms would work if it werent for us.
Capitalism works well until incorporation enters. Limited liability allows people to behave recklessly. The selling of shares takes business away from the core purpose, with everything being about the stock.
Everything for the corporation, and nothing for the people (like communism).
"The selling of shares takes business away from the core purpose, with everything being about the stock."
That's the Truth! Absolutely! That's how Mitt-sh!t Romney got his, breaking up businesses for the stock holders. Fraking evil!
Keep typing Nevada1!
Hi JamesS89118, Thank you for the encouraging words. Let's win this thing. Best Regards, Nevada
Two words: Profit Sharing
So whats your alternative? i hear socialism is working out great in europe, just ask greece.
Greeces problems, along with Italy, sweden, Ireland, and Portugal, came from their use of the financial instruments that American banks invented. We did this to them by 'leaving them alone with a pile of money' that was based on betting against ones own assets. Socialism is not the answer, but we need to overcome our irrational fear of it to see that we can take the best parts of socialism and integrate them into our own society. Thomas Paine was this kind of thinker, and he was ostracized until his death for it.
define "best parts of socialism"?is it the 6 weeks paid vacations? the 50% tax rate? ive been to sweden. everyone is "happy" because everything is paid for by the government, but also everything from food to goods are expensive as shit.
How about healthcare? Do you like living in the richest country in the world, but ranking so poorly in infant mortality? Or Education, where per student costs have doubled since 1970 with no improvement in our actual pupils? Consider Germany. In terms of capitalism, Germany is doing better than China in terms of Exports/size, they have free education, the most productive modern workforce on the planet, and the highest corporate tax rates. If you want to play in the biggest economy, you should have to pay the most taxes.
oh you forgot that Germany has no defense budget...
free education is not the problem. id rather have more money in my pocket than have it taken from me and automatically given to education. while we already pay a portion to public edu, we should not have to pay for all of it. but then again it all depends on your viewpoint.but as you just pointed out, capitalism is obviously not the problem
Dummy... you've forgotten to throw into the mix the propensity of Americans to produce crack babies, or in other words, bear unhealthy children. Do you think that Europeans produce all these crack babies? And German parents are struggling to pay for education, too. It's just one big narrowly focused lie and you can blame Michael Moore and his desire to fill his bank account for that one. He was selling what you wanted to buy.
best part of socialism
part 4...aka laziness
You've forgotten the most important part - they're still working albeit with a somewhat chilled desire and have far less.
Hate to break it to you, but Sweden has a higher GDP per capita than the USA. The median Swede has more than the median American, especially when it comes to quality of life issues such as access to healthcare and social safety nets.
I haven't been to Sweden so I can't comment on this. But I do know that a higher GDP per capita does not necessarily correlate to disposable income or availability of product. And I do know that the "Swedish Model" to which many here refer suffered severe setbacks through the 90s. In fact, many here would do well to study it extensively.
Huh? You mean debt? That's the new-fangled instrument you're talking about? Seriously, come up for air. Greece cooked its books, lied about its financials situation and gorged itself on borrowed money to feed socialism and public unions. Now it's fucking over-with.
Don't think you understand much about Greek culture... I don't think you understand the predilection of its people to avoid work, seek sinecures, or decry and deny all taxes. Hand a kid five bucks and send him off to the store to buy milk; he spends it on candy and eats it on the way home - it's the case of the errant child. And offering him another five for the five he already owes you is a bad decision.
well thats exactly the direction were heading.the government doesnt owe me anything and all i expect from it is to protect my liberties. The rest i can deal with on my own.
Well then welcome to the rev...
hah, good one. i say FIX IT!
There is no system we know of that works in practice. However, capitalism has proved remarkably resilient in many ways that other systems have not, particularly when paired with democracy in a way that allows as-needed fluctuation between the philosophies of Keynes and Hayek.
We are in a debt crisis and a recession, but neither of these are occurrences that have not been overcome by capitalist/democratic nations before. What is important is not abandoning capitalism but refining it. Revolution is far riskier for the future than refinement.
Well if the darn government would just get out of the way we could let the whole thing collapse into ashes and THEN we could start rebuilding again. But our retarded government seems to think that this birth-rise-fall-death cycle is not desirable. When, in fact, it is perfectly natural and quite desirable.
It is not Capitalism that is broken, it is government.
If we fix the government, we can manage Capitalism properly.
Government needs to be a part of the economic system.
Neither Capitalism nor Communism are the answer. In both system a few people control the resources.
The fatal flaw of capitalism is that is based on greed. The fatal flaw of communism is that is based on control the dissidence.
Capitalism can work if transparency is a 100% required. If I buy a product from you, I must know how much did it cost you and where you got it from. In the past, this was impossible. Now, is not only possible but easy to implement.
This should also be on the work force. A person that do the same job as another should receive the same pay. Now is impossible to know if the daughter of your boss is earning 3 times as much as you do but works for 4 hours. If transparency where required, this is gone.
We need 75% capitalism and 25% socialism.
And before anyone gets all crazy about socialism just remember public education, the police, firefighters, and our roads are all socialism.
Sounds reasonable, except the way the socialism work under capitalism. I have personally seen how government agencies would at the end of year buy useless things just to justify the budget of the next year. In government you are encouraged to be wasteful and punished for being efficient. So a way to eliminate this should be think of.
Have a maximum of one administrative position for every 10 teachers. Require a maintenance program from the states before giving any money for roads. Eliminate unnecessary laws that make the police department cost billions.
Everything works in theory. Nothing in real life.
Economic systems are dynamic, we go through boom and bust. Government also keeps making slight alterations in the rules as we go. Changes like altering the Glass-Steagall Act might have been a mistake as was encouraging banks to make loans to individuals with poor credit. It could be said these government actions helped cause the problems too. In general though capitalism has worked better over the long run then economies that are totally managed by government. Individuals as well as governments have borrowed too much and are now at the point where the lenders are getting nervous. The housing collapse was partly the result of too many bad loans. Too much greed on all sides, people wanting more and more "free stuff", investors looking for more profit, and neither of them thinking anything could go wrong.
National Emergency Employment Defense Act of 2011
I skimmed the bill quickly, it looks appealing, but doesn't seem to mention how we would fund paying off all our national obligations. I assume we could do it all now with or without that bill if we raised taxes. We pay what, about 25% of our personal income in various ways to local, state and federal government. In europe they average closer to about 35%. One of our problems is that the public in general doesn't want to pay for things. Wall Street Journal poll out today states that 53% of americans believe deficits should be cut, they would be all for the NEED Act. Unfortunately the same poll has 53% also against anyone's taxes going up. The public in general has come to expect someone else to pay for what they want. It's not just corporate greed you're fighting, but personal greed too.
The rich gutted the entire country to line their pockets. I can't believe the brainless Tea Party crap all over the web. I have some stupid relatives who vote republican even though they are too poor for it benefit them in any way. I blame the media. Hell, they convinced people global warming was a hoax. They are ugly to gay people, they hate the poor and are jealous of the unemployed, they oppose abortion but have take in none of kids in the foster system, they want guns although they would prove useless against the military. I understand the rich wants to knock this country back to the stone age and perhaps starve a lot of people they find excessive to feed. What we have and what the Tea Party wants isn't capitalism at all. The rich are sick and tired of maintaining the illusion of freedom. They want to give people the freedom to starve. Theirs is message of hate and an attack on the poverty the 1% created. A blame the victim mentality. Its sick and sad and disgusting. I have no idea why some people want to feel they have taken a step forward when all they have done is push everyone else a step back. That isn't real progress. I live in a rural area so I'm not out in the streets but I support OWS.
They say that television has an 80% influence on how the average person will vote.
I 100% agree that the super rich and even the assholes who worship Fox News are trying to create a caste system, like in India, where there is a lower class that it is perfectly acceptable to blame for all of life's problems. Silly misguided working class, the poor have no power or control... How is anything wrong in society their fault? And when someone comes along to give the power to the "have-nots" then comes the shot. Sad story.
Capitalism is a theory and theories only work in theory.
The problem isn't capitalism per se, but American style unrestrained capitalism. There is, as a legacy of the Cold War, an irrational fear of anything even vaguely resembling (cover the children's ears) 'socialism'; it is really seen as a great moral evil, despite overwhelming evidence of successful satisfied democratic capitalist nations such as Germany which have only benefitted by moderating capitalism with measured, reasonable 'socialist' reforms.
Once an idea is successfully branded 'socialist' in the US (whether it actually is or not) it is no longer critically evaluated but summarily dismissed as 'too radical'. We need to get past this silliness.
Hell, even red China had the capacity to discard mindless commitment to ideology and make concessions of necessity to capitalism, recognizing that its communist system required moderation with elements of capitalism in order to succeed. In the US, we're still essentially superstitious and irrational about 'the S word'.
Your math is off. your share of the countries debt is about 130K. Capitalism is merely the exchange of goods or services for compensation. The issue you want to really be concerned with is how corporations work. Corporations exist only to grow. They want to gobble up all market shares of everything possible so the little guy has less chance to start. The reason everything goes broke is because we have allowed the corporations to globalize the banking system. Which makes everything interconnected. Think dominoes push one over and, well you know.
The countries debt includes ALL DEBTS that exist. Personal debts, company debts, all included with government debts. All debts.
You assume what we have no is capitalism. It isn't. What we have now is economic fascism - the merger of business and the state. We have a market with armed men all around - its hardly free.
exactly. That's why at the end I said something like that. They tell us we have capitalism. What I described is not capitalism. I called it a monetary dictatorship. Economic Fascism works too. The influence of money is the root of all evil though.
The ugly truth. America's wealth is STILL being concentrated. When the rich get too rich, the poor get poorer. These latest figures prove it. AGAIN.
According to the Social Security Administration, 50 percent of U.S. workers made less than $26,364 in 2010. In addition, those making less than $200,000, or 99 percent of Americans, saw their earnings fall by $4.5 billion collectively. The sobering numbers were a far cry from what was going on for the richest one percent of Americans.
The incomes of the top one percent of the wage scale in the U.S. rose in 2010; and their collective wage earnings jumped by $120 billion. In addition, those earning at least $1 million a year in wages, which is roughly 93,000 Americans, reported payroll income jumped 22 percent from 2009. Overall, the economy has shed 5.2 million jobs since the start of the Great Recession in 2007. It’s the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression in the 1930’s.
Another word about the first Great Depression. It really was a perfect storm. Caused almost entirely by greed. First, there was unprecedented economic growth. There was a massive building spree. There was a growing sense of optimism and materialism. There was a growing obsession for celebrities. The American people became spoiled, foolish, naive, brainwashed, and love-sick. They were bombarded with ads for one product or service after another. Encouraged to spend all of their money as if it were going out of style. Obscene profits were hoarded at the top. In 1928, the rich were already way ahead. Still, they were given huge tax breaks. All of this represented a MASSIVE transfer of wealth from poor to rich. Executives, entrepreneurs, developers, celebrities, and share holders. By 1929, America's wealthiest 1 percent had accumulated around 40% of all United States wealth. The upper class held around 30%. The middle and lower classes were left to share the rest. When the majority finally ran low on money to spend, profits declined and the stock market crashed.
Of course, the rich threw a fit and started cutting jobs. They would stop at nothing to maintain their disgusting profit margins and ill-gotten obscene levels of wealth as long as possible. The small business owners did what they felt necessary to survive. They cut more jobs. The losses were felt primarily by the little guy. This created a domino effect. The middle class shrunk drastically and the lower class expanded. With less wealth in reserve and active circulation, banks failed by the hundreds. More jobs were cut. Unemployment reached 25% in 1933. The worst year of the Great Depression. Those who were employed had to settle for much lower wages. Millions went cold and hungry. The recovery involved a massive infusion of new currency, a World War, and higher taxes on the rich. With so many men in the service, so many women on the production line, and those higher taxes to help pay for it, the lions share of United States wealth was gradually transfered back to the middle class. This redistribution of wealth continued until the mid seventies. This was the recovery. A massive redistribution of wealth. Then it began to concentrate all over again. Here we are 35 years later. The richest one percent now own well over 40 percent of all US wealth. The lower 90 percent own less than 10 percent of all US wealth. This is true even after taxes, welfare, financial aid, and charity. It is the underlying cause. No redistribution. No recovery.
The government won't step in and do what's necessary. Not this time. It's up to us. Support small business more and big business less. Support the little guy more and the big guy less. It's tricky but not impossible. No redistribution. No recovery.
Those of you who agree on these major issues are welcome to summarize this post, copy it, link to it, save it, show a friend, or spread the word in any fashion. Most major cities have daily call-in talk radio shows. You can reach thousands of people at once. They should know the ugly truth. Be sure to quote the figures which prove that America's wealth is still being concentrated. I don't care who takes the credit. We are up against a tiny but very powerful minority who have more influence on the masses than any other group in history. They have the means to reach millions at once with outrageous political and commercial propaganda. Those of us who speak the ugly truth must work incredibly hard just to be heard.
Great post TrevorMnemonic! Very real.
However, 1% would strongly disagree. Capitalism works VERY well for them. Remember, Capitalism only works for those with Capital. We are Capital-less.
Also, "Major companies are going broke." hahaha Name one?
Cheers
well they got bail outs. GM
I think a natural law of free market capitalism is that a company gains larger market share by keeping labor costs as low as possible. Trouble with that is that it becomes a race to the bottom, with the labor force seeing contraction of their purchasing power exerted by the natural downward force of the free market. We used to deal with this problem with unions demanding resistance to the pressure of the free market system on wages, but with the decline of unions we must find a new way to deal with this contraction of purchasing power.
What you just described is the opposite of capitalism
But this is what our government tells us is capitalism. What I described I called a monetary dictatorship. It's at the end of the post.
Pretty stunning that there are people that want to believe that this is a failure of capitalism. Just amazing.
At least the OP is aware that we are in debt. The Soviet Union went broke for the same reason that the EU and now we have. Voters demanded more free money from the treasury than they were earning.
I am hoping that the OP is at least aware of the difference between debt and capitalism. One is a mechanism to earn money, and the other is a mechanism to borrow money. You could choose not to borrow money and just earn it, correct?
Welcome to the Tea Party, people. You're starting to see the light.
This is what the government calls capitalism. I call it a monetary dictatorship. The tea party watches too much Fox News. When you guys stop hating on gays and people in poverty, I will join your ranks. Until then, I have a heart and sadly, I do care about other people.
Eh, no, actually, it works rather well.
It works great for the people on top. I pointed that out. But everything I listed is a fact. So yeah... not working the best. Neither is our so called "democracy/federal republic"
Yeah, I know, thanks for helping me. Because, generally, when the world community is confronted with say, a natural disaster, America sucks in helping out. Haiti, Chilean miners, 2004 tsunami, et. al. We're just greedy bastards. And the one percent, they never donate a dime.
Some of them do. Matt Damon is a good example of a well to do 1% American. My problem is actually with the .00001% You know, the assholes controlling our economy and hoarding money like they're going to be on the season premiere of hoarders. I'm sure one of them probably has a Scrooge McDuck pool of money they dive into at night.
Well Trev, I'll tell you what.....There has been far too many agendas stated with little direction. Based on a variety of statistics posted here, my wife and I, combined incomes, fall between a 1 and3 percent. I get a weeee bit frosty hearing about the "evil" one percent wondering what the hell we ever did to anyone!!!!!!!! I'm a south side Chicago Irishman, youngest of 5 boys who got lucky, and made it out. My wife, conversely, north side Chicago Irish girl of five, who made well too. We more than generously donate to a number of philanthropic organizations focused on children. We live modestly (no huge home) yet treat our family well, save, and invest.
The crux of my anger is directed toward self serving, sad outlook on life, progressives. My gilded target, Radio host, Norman Goldman. His first broadcast on Chicago progressive radio nearly made me puke. He stated, verbatim, "you make, we take". Why? Can anyone afford to me what I owe anyone for my sacrifice and success???!!
I'll say it again, for it seems to go well beyond comprehension here:
Stephen Crane voiced his OWS opinion, anachronistically, in 1899.
A man said to the universe: "Sir I exists!" "However," relied the universe, "The fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."
How long will your riches be riches? Your purchasing power is decreasing. Your US dollar is failing.
Trust me, I sleep well and will continue to - regardless of what the dollar does.
Lulz wait until your dollar is worth nothing. You are selfish. You only care about yourself. That's a horrible way to live life. I actually live quite well and my savings account is in the highest of numbers it has ever been in my life. But I've also seen corporate greed first hand at every job I've had over the past 5 years. I've seen a restaurant owner embezzle money. I've seen a priest funnel for profit money through a non profit company so he didn't have to pay taxes. I've seen a manager go on vacation to come back to his office packed in a box. I've seen full time workers fired because they cost too much. They then get replaced with part time workers for half the pay. Yes the company is so cheap they don't allow any new hires to be full time. If they were full time they'd have to pay the benefits. This is a huge corporate trend. It doesn't have to happen to me for me to realize it's bull shit. I don't have to be in poverty to know our country is on a steep downhill descent. So go ahead and sleep well at night. I sleep well knowing I tried to make a difference instead of only caring about myself.
Your itemized list of greed; do you feel the core essence is anachronistic? That somehow, we are so unique by our individual circumstances? In 2011, did some arbitrary entity invite greed into our world? (and please, do not come back with any statement involving the last 30 years). Greed is an unseemly uncle in our life. An embarrassing reality that will not go away under the best guidance or intervention.
S. Crane sums it up in his poem "In The Desert"
In the desert I saw a creature, naked, bestial, Who, squatting upon the ground, Held his heart in his hands, And ate of it. I said: "Is it good, friend?" "It is bitter- bitter," he answered; " But I like it Because it is bitter, And because it is my heart."
Our system is being abused. I think true capitalism is awesome. But how can a local business compete against big business? It can't. Our system is being monopolized and taken advantage of.
I am NOT ready to give up on capitalism and I suspect MOST are not either. I say FIX IT! (or refer me to some REALLY convincing alternatives that would actually be acceptable and implementable for a HUGE majority of Americans and no hookey stuff. I really doubt anything else is feasible, so just FIX it!)
Capitalism says in a free market, people will do make the best use of limited resources if they follow their self-interest.
This has been a fairly powerful and effective motivator. It's definitely not perfect.
Some have always preferred to just "leave it alone and the system will work just fine".
But NO, there are several problems and kinks that have been identified through history as we have followed and experimented with this economic system...Rules and Regulations are needed to keep it fair, to keep it alive, so it doesn't implode, so that the so-called 1% dont get all the money and power and oppress/exploit the so-called 99%.
The problem is too many in the so-called 1% are FOOLISHLY FIGHTING and resisting necessary rules and regulations. And too many in the 99% have followed blindly.
A few of what I see as solutions:
Wake-up, give a sh*t and join this movement! Get informed, get involved. Demand change and help FIX the system! FROM WHEREVER YOU ARE!!!!
ELECTORAL REFORM so the representatives actually represent THE PEOPLE
Common sense economic reform. Rules that DON'T allow "Wall Street" to collapse the system. Enforce the rules. Investigate, punish.
Tax reform. Yes, there is room to tax more fairly.
Debt Reduction: I am not a tea partier, but yes, we need to carefully reduce the debt. But smartly and fairly.
Hey, Where can we go for the latest list of OWS proposed solutions?
Your comment is awesome. I can say that I agree with it 100%
I'm not sure about where you can go for solutions, as far as a specific post... but I can tell you the 2 that I see all the time are
Campaign Finance Reform and making an amendment that clarifies that you have to literally be a human being to be considered a person.
End the fed and their bullshit fractional banking system.
Thanks, I totally agree with Campaign Finance Reform but honestly, I need to learn more about The Fed.
and we have no banks,
BANKS are NOT ours at all, but corrupted, usury and greediness private individual and corporative - groups of greedy individuals - under veil of corporations, with out of any control...
are we just stop revolutionizing our ideas, and STOP on capitalism and/or communism ?
That's BAD ... too BAD!
How about searching for optimum ... other way, to make compromising solution to most of 99% of a human being...
and without that fucking corruption, greediness, usury ...
CAP and under control ... all corporative, banking and governmental power
or we loose all ... for good...
16 trillion / 300 million = 53,333 per person.
Not 680,000 per person.
Please keep facts as accurate as possible, else you loose credibility.
Google the 680,000 dollars per person. It's a fact. Not just federal debt. This is all debts. "National debt currently stands at $14.01 trillion dollars. That’s more than $45,000 per citizen, or almost $127,000 per taxpaying American. If you add in debt held by households, state and local governments and financial institutions, that number (the total US debt) blows out to well over $55.5 trillion, or more than $680,000 per average family."
Well that's just silly to complain about.
If I borrow $200,000 to buy a house, I can't enjoy my house then complain about my debt.
If I borrow $100,000 for school, I can't enjoy the benefits of a college education then complain about my debt.
In each case, I have also gained an ASSET!!! to offset the liability.
That doesn't fix the problem. Our country has 680,000 dollars worth of debt per person. That can't be fixed. I barely have any debt and I'm paying it fine. I'm just observing a huge problem. Our economy is shrinking and our dollar is devaluing. It's a fact.
So what you're saying is, if the people of the US choose to go into debt up to their eyeballs; 1) a great injustice has been done? 2) corporations are to blame? 3) the government should bail them out? (thus creating more debt for everyone)
I guess I don't understand what you're saying. Please spell it out for me.
Capitalism is no longer just about profits and keeping around good business. It's become "make money at every cost except money."
Money has corrupted our government and most importantly our congress. It has used forms of oppression in pursuit of profits, like sweat shop labor, Nike style. This isn't how capitalism is supposed to operate. Capitalism isn't supposed to be in our government. Capitalism is our economy. Outsourcing industry? Sweat shop labor? Poor working conditions and low wages for other foreign outsourced industry? People dying from tainted products because pitching all the product was more expensive than the potential law suits? Hundreds of people dying every year in our country from pursuit of profits? This is not how capitalism is supposed to work. Some of you might call the bail outs socialism... Who was backing certain members of congress to vote on the bail outs? Who was using scare tactics to get what they wanted? They said "if you don't pass this you will see a collapse. You will see riots in the streets. You will see martial law." It was just a tactic in their distorted view of capitalism. Which is make money against any cost that isn't their money. Well congress passed it for them. We have laws and regulation in place so our system can't be taken advantage of. They're getting rid of those laws one by one. And they're making new laws which make our system worse.
Okay, I'm still listening.
How, specifically, does that relate how much an individual borrows and whether or not they should pay it back?
Also, I'm still trying to figure out where the $680,000/person came from. I've googled and googled and googled some more. All I can find is the national debt, which is currently about 15 trillion, which equates to about $55,000 per person. Even if you add in the mean home debt of $70,000, and the average credit card debt of $7,600, it's still only about $125,000 per person. Where is $680,000 coming from? Entitlements to be paid over the next 30 years maybe?
Confused, please educate me.
There are many factors involved in the bankrupt condition of this country. To just blame it all on capitalism isn't really doing your homework on the subject.
Here's some other factors to consider: government spending; fascism(cronyism); fiat money printing (quantitative easing); NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT; lobbyists.
Money printing is a product of the federal reserve. Which is not part of the government. It is part of capitalism, hence the fact it makes it's capital on their money they provide to the world. But yeah, fuck lobbyists too... they are a product of capitalism by the way. The government is at fault too. A lot of fault. They waste so much money, it's absurd.
well I will have to do some more research or maybe you can answer this:
Is piracy, racketeering and extortion part of capitalism? It seems like any economic system would have some rules. I can't imagine anyone endorsing an economic system that embraces criminal enterprise.
It would make sense to me that capitalism does not include crime as one of it's doctrines. I do know that the Fed and lobbyists are products of fascism but I will have to check to see if I am mistaken on the capitalism.
True capitalism is awesome. We don't have that anymore.
well what is true capitalsim? apparently there is no consensus. I paralleled this thread thread with another one entitled "socialism only works in theory".
It makes sense to me and apparently to the founding fathers that 100% capitalism or 100% socialism wouldn't work too well, So they set up the constitution which might be considered a 90/10 capitalism/socialism ratio.
Yeah for sure. Problem is that all "isms" only work in theory. Human nature is erratic at times. Everyone can be guilty of it on some levels. Some a lot more than others. This is why we have laws and regulation. Which have even been taken advantage of as well. The government is corrupt.
OK you are one of the moderate and rational ones around here. I thought you might have been one of the persons who see only from one perspective in complete black and white picture.
Capitalism hasn't failed, socialism has in this country. You think bailing out big business that would have otherwise gone under is capitalism? Do you think the stimulus package was capitalist in nature? Do you think big government, which has prolonged the recession, is capitalist? If you answered yes to any of those questions, you have no clue what capitalism is. The ABSENCE of capitalism when it was needed most is what has prolonged the nation's economic misery.
Socialism / Communism only works when the "undersireable / non-productive" segment of the society is removed (i.e. culled off) - So, let's start down the road to Utopia by doing away with the Union Members, Teachers, Professors, Politicians, Social Workers, etc. - and especially all those whiney 20 somethings at the occupy movements. We can make Soylent "Red" or "Green" out of them :-)
Pure capitalism works in practice if you realize that it only accomplishes what it sets out to accomplish: to ensure that capital is only deployed on ideas that will generate profits by rewarding smart risk taking and punishing stupid risk taking. Our companies are not going broke, they have more cash on hand than ever before. It is our government that is going broke and it is because punishment for bad risk taking is not inherent in the decision making in government. If politicians went personally broke for their bad decisions, we wouldn't have this problem. As Maggie Thatcher famously said: "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Wall Street companies all went broke because they forgot capitalism, they started acting like governments by personally reaping the rewards of risk while placing all the downside risk on the American people. With reduced downside risk, they started making bigger and bigger bets, that eventually blew up and yes, the American tax payer was left holding the bag.
I believe that talking about "isms" is not productive. Better to criticize specific features of systems, and to propose specific solutions to problems. This helps keep from discussions deteriorating into name-calling squabbles.
For example, we might point out that large private banks have caused a lot of grief for a lot of people, especially over the past decade. It would be better to have smaller banks, and particularly good to have state banks such as North Dakota has, or, better still, co-op type banks.
Criticizing the ideologies actually more productive. Blaming politicians for taking bribes, monopolies to overgrowing and eliminating competition, banks for creating money, people for steal for survival and so on. is not productive. they are just symptoms of the underlying root causes. THE MARKET is encouraging the behavior.
I've posted countless things like that through different forms of social media. I've talked about a lot of things in person with other protesters. This post is for the opposition that comes to this site to realize there is an obvious problem.
More importantly we should point out that we live in a monetary dictatorship where those with all the money hold all the power. Members of congress are bought and stick to what their lobbyist and corporate fund babies tell them to do. Like the S.598 Internet Black List bill that is an obvious corporate/lobbyist invention.
We need to restore the power of the people. It's still We The People, right?
We are money slaves in other words. We live and die for money.
So our life purpose today have been "get money and die" and then teach same thing to our children and pressure them to live to support this sick system and create paradox what never ends.
You can't be healthy in unhealthy system.
In my view, the main fault of capitalism is the proliferation of advertising. The whole premise of the free market is that consumers will choose the best product, company, or political candidate, but advertising corrupts this. The very first assumption that you start with in ANY economics class (before cereris paribus) is that competitors and consumers have perfect information, but as soon as ads are introduced, the whole point of capitalism is defeated. Realize this, and we can remake capitalism as the engine of progress it once was.
I have for some time now felt that we are a country where we all exist to sell things to one another and that's about it. Since this is true we had to develop the science to sell to each other more effectively, which resulted in the field of marketing. Consequently in the process we discovered that not only could we sell "things" to each other but we can also sell bullshit political ideology as well. The main stream media is engaged in this activity even as we speak. Why do you think only certain candidates get air time. The media is in the process of picking the next GOP candidate. Marketing is a powerful tool.
Yes, I agree with this. But moreso, it is ignorance. Democracy is hard work. People dont have time or interest to stay informed. engaged. Umm, many are lazy (like I have been). It's not easy to stay informed and to act. Maybe only on big things. Therefore, it is EASY for those who want to, to take advantage and exploit the masses. The antidote to your point about the influence of advertising: EDUCATION! and a BIG movement like this that needs to grow MUCH larger to shake and reform this system and make some changes...that will likely fade as things improve and people go back to the grind and the power and wealth concentrates again and the whole cycle will repeat....ugg!
Read ECONned: How Unenlightened Self Interest Undermined Democracy and Corrupted Capitalism. http://www.amazon.com/ECONned-Unenlightened-Undermined-Democracy-Capitalism/dp/0230620515
I suggest the OWS crowd watch this. It is a cartoon produced in 1948. It is very simple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVh75ylAUXY
Nothing is passing the test against reality...
What needs to happen for you to realize this is NOT capitalism?
I think we live in a monetary dictatorship. That's why I finished the post by calling it something other than capitalism. Like a monetary dictatorship.
The best term I have read that describes our current model is Participatory Fascism.
Sounds good to me.
The problem is not Capitalism but the introduction of Socialist programs into a Capitalist system. Capitalism would have allowed the banks to fail. The bailout was the result of preventing capitalism to do its job. We do not need less capitalism. We need more. See what Milton Friedman says about the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-o0kD9f6wo
Actually every isms and everything work in theory.
I know. I based this on the common saying "Communism only works in theory." Because in theory, it does. But in real life, people can be assholes sometimes. Which is why every massive level of ISM fails on some or all levels. We need State power and localized economies. That way if you don't like a state, you can just move to another one. This also establishes the power of small business while opening a new style of trade. I'm sure it will only work in theory though hahaha. End the fractional banking system and get money out of politics. Congress passed laws that made it legal to accept bribery. I'll be cool with capitalism when the government stops these practices and restores the voice of the people. Rage Against the Machine was right.
Speaking of isms, this was produced in 1948
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVh75ylAUXY
In theory it assumes that government won't intervene.
In theory it assumes that no one will complain.
The federal reserve is not the government.
The Federal Reserve regulates the markets?
Why did Ben Benranke tell everyone that they can expect unemployment to rise over the next 2 years? Why do they constantly suggest that wall street has a major effect on our lives?
That doesn't respond to my question at all. The Federal Reserve does not directly regulate markets, the government does.
Wall Street has affected our lives by using their money to influence politics.
and the govt is just as corrupt for taking the money
Yes, that is the general consensus.
EXACTLY!!! Therefore they are directly responsible for the government actions. As well as others that they don't have to account for.
What are you talking about?
"The Federal Reserve does not directly regulate markets, the government does. Wall Street has affected our lives by using their money to influence politics." -you
Yes, but who is the "they" in your statement?
Who aren't "THEY?" Hahaha just kiding. Federal reserve, many corporations, Bilderberg, Haliburton. Newscorp with propaganda. Dole for killing people because it was cheaper to pay off law suits rather than pitching all of the product. Corporations that outsource industry and take advantage of foreign countries with poor working conditions and in some cases sweat shop labor. They are the "THEY." There is a lot of THEM in the "THEY."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8t2RCVb9gg
Yea...that "theory" that made America the greatest country on planet Earth for the past 200 years...just isn't working out for socialist hippies. They just can't figure it out yet.
LULZ you are a prejudice person. Your oppression is not welcome here.
I actually really like capitalism. We don't have true capitalism anymore. It's been hijacked and is turning into a pyramid scheme and a monopoly. Most members of our government are bought and paid for, not to mention that many of them use their insider knowledge to play the stock market in their favor. Why do you think a lot of members of congress make so much money?
really? so what works in reality?
I think a nationalized federal reserve would be a good start. Get this debt based monetary system out of here. It's the constitutional right. Privatized money is not in the constitution.
True capitalism, (and when I say that I mean what what we have now has turned into a pyramid scheme/monopoly system with a little bit of capitalism trying to eek it's way in) but true capitalism works with a dab of socialism. 80% capitalism and 20% socialism. And before you get all crazy about socialism just remember public schools, the police, firefighters, and the roads we drive on are all socialism.
huh? isnt that what we have now? w have a federal eserve. and we have a mixed economy. schools firedept, police - can all be privatized
We can fix capitalism with a simple CAP on retail sale profit
Capitalism has spread a certain kind of development over much of the world. that's largely to the good, but you're right in that it has outlived or is outliving its usefulness.
Crony capitalism IS pure capitalism.
I don't think capitalism has outlived it's time. I still think it's the best system. It's been hijacked by greed, fraud, and negligence in the pursuit of profits. Capitalism is about making the best product there is and the power of the consumer determines this. Capitalism is not outsourcing jobs, capitalism is not deciding to sell tainted goods because it's cheaper to pay off law suits then it is to throw away the product. Capitalism is not greed.
A system does what it's designed to do. And capitalism is absolutely about pursuit of profits.
Capitalism is not fraud and negligence in the pursuit of profits.
Capitalism is not paying off the government in the pursuit of profits.
Capitalism is not about building a monopoly.
Capitalism is exactly those things. It is what it is.
No you are ridiculously wrong. Morons think that is what capitalism is. Sheep think that fraud and corruption is okay.
And same to you, buddy. Capitalism is what it is and it's dying. Try being a CEO who doesn't strive by all means available to maximize profits. You'll be sued as fast as I can say "Jackie Robinson."
I'm not trying to be a dick... but capitalism is not fraud. That is just assholes taking advantage of the system. Also, we are a capitalistic and socialistic society. Education, police, social security... etc... There are just people that have hijacked our system and they're shitting all over everyone beneath them. It's been turned into a pyramid scheme.
Enough. You're right. Capitalism is very altruistic. G'night.
Wow I've seen ignorance, but this takes the cake. It is clear you don't have a degree in economics, hence your absurd leaps of logic, e.g. if capitalism works, why bankruptcy? Recognize that failure is part of the system - it clears out those uses of capital that are inefficient. Schumpeter called it "creative destruction." Do you lament that there are no more buggy whip manufacturers left? That said, today's crisis is not the fault of capitalism but of government intrusion in the system. Fan and Fred, along with bank regulators, forced banks to lend to people who otherwise would not qualify, actually saying that it's OK to use lower standards with "protected groups." If banks did not comply, they'd be punished with various heavy-handed regulatory tools. So they made loans. What infuriates me is how few people are railing against the buyers who did not beware. If you are foolish enough to believe a salesman and sign papers for the largest purchase in your life without understanding them or being sure of your ability to perform, then you deserve to fail. Rational people learn from failure. Capitalism would not have allowed for so many loans to be made to unqualified borrowers, and if they had, the issuers would be allowed to fail as well. But the moral hazard of "too big to fail" was practiced through the current admin. Dodd-Frank kicked that can down the road and in fact added EVEN MORE pro-minority provisions thanks to that bitter witch Maxine Waters. So-called diversity checks permeate the financial system, ensuring that, even as qualified borrowers and investors cannot get credit, "protected groups" still can, based on nothing more than the color of their skin. Is this what MLK had in mind? I doubt it. State governments are broke largely due to excessive benefits allotted to unionized government workers. People who pad their pension benefit calculation by ramping up overtime in their last earning year(s), save unused vacation time and cash in at retirement, and other things end up retiring earlier than most private sector employees and can draw pensions of $100K per year for life, possibly 30-35 years, plus medical benefits. Add to this that they haven't paid much into either, and you run into crises that need reasonable solutions like those in Wisconsin and NJ. And let's be real, paying a few percent into your own retirement is reasonable, especially when private sector people pay way more. These excessive union-driven benefits and bloated government payrolls (20 million people work for govt at all levels in this country!!!) are the reason for broke state governments, not capitalism. It's unfortunate that most on the left have never studied economics (and I don't mean one course), because they rail against systems they don't even understand. The Obamunist is a perfect example - poli sci and law. No econ. No finance. The result is policies like those that prolonged the Depression - too much regulation and interference in business decisions, and too many taxes in the GD, while today it's the threat of too many taxes. At the end of the day, like it or not, there is no better economic system than capitalism. And let's not indulge in this whiny crap about how it's "unfair." Unfair to whom? Life's not fair, and that's the reality that the whiners do not want to face.
Lulz you watch too much O'Reilly or something!
"It's all the unions' fault!!!"
Without government regulation, Nike would still have sweat shop labor.
We don't have capitalism any more than we have socialism. The fact is that capitalism has been corrupted by the people with power and is no longer capitalism.
classic!
The Sky is Falling ! The Sky is Falling ! Or is it Wolf ! Wolf !
Try getting out of your little bubble and doing some research into just how "awful" things are in America. Start with a good deep review of the 2010 Census data.
this is a total freak show LOL!
I think it's working great. People have just become too reliant on a stable economy.
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Little of what you write about has to do with capitalism. Most of the problems you cite are due to elected politicians that can't stop spending other people's money.
that are funded by corruption
No, capitalism works better than anything anybody has thought of if it respects the rights of workers, is a good steward to the environment, and is responsible in it's use of capital.
That "if" condition of yours contradicts the fundamental principle of capitalism which is "accumulation of capital" also known as greed. Which is prioritized over everything else.
Greed is an exaggeration of the instinct for survival. Falling somewhere between Greed and mere survival is virtue. Virtue tells us that we will survive together while instructing us that competition is necessary. It leads us to a system in which government functions to buffer the excesses of human greed while preserving its beneficial qualities.
"Virtue tells us that we will survive together" - I have no idea what you mean by this. "instructing us that competition is necessary" - While in reality it's not. Cooperation is. "buffer the excesses of human greed" - Greed, which is trained into human behavior by the system itself.
Horseshit.
I agree. If it's not taken advantage of, It's a spectacular system. But it's been over run by the greedy and the soulless. The guys that actually pay mathematicians to figure out if their tainted foods will still be profitable if they kill people, based on settlements vs the loss of the product. So that's how DOLE killed 14 people this year. Obviously this system needs a change.
What kind of retard could live in the United States and think that? Sure, some goof crawling out of the jungle someplace, I can get that. But what capitalism has created is all around you. Are you really this damn ignorant of history or how most people still live?
Look around you dumbass, capitalism built what you see.
Capitalism is great. but we don't live in a capitalistic society anymore. it's turning into a caste system similar to India. I think capitalism reigns supreme... when it's not being abused by those with the money. DOLE killed 14 people in hopes to maintain profits
Similar to India? That's just more wild exaggeration and hyperventilating. Make your points, but the crazy person comparisons don't help anyone.
Try again. Have you heard the hate speech and slander from the propaganda hound Fox News? And all of its followers?
Sometimes to create you need to destroy. Same thing applies to your opponents.
Or sometimes that's simply all you're capable of.
People are in debt by choice, not force. Governments are in debt becuase people demand wellfare like alcoholics damand vodka. Capitalism only works when people use common sence and you all don't seam to have any.
Blame the poor!
what a dumb theory.
If they did it to them selves then yes. Who would you blame? the people who gave them what they wanted?
What about the wife that lost her husband and has to take care of 3 children on her own? What about the man who can no longer work because he got in a horrible car accident? What about the boy who grew up with a crippling disability that can't work because he's stuck in a wheel chair? What about the 45 year old success story that got laid off because his company thought he cost too much money? He's now working at Red Robin because no one is hiring.
You are a piece of shit if you really view the poor as lazy. Some of the hardest working people I've known in my life have been the guys making 8 dollars an hour stacking pallets and moving boxes. Take your ignorance elsewhere.
I didn't say the poor are lazy but i'm not a socialist prick who thinks we should cancle debt of balme it on the rich. All of those example you gave, with the exception of the boy in the wheel chair, they should have planned. the husband should have had life insurance, that's what it's for. The man in the car accident, same thing.
The 45 year old succes story, he is the worst of them all, he should have thought about saving when he was working. If he spent more than he made and had debt, that's his own dam fault.
The cripple kid, that's a strech. Most people who have been crippled like that for life stay at home.
All those people could have not been in trouble. Savings is a miracle. if none of the learned about it, then that is their own fault. Don't expect me to reach into my pocket to pay for them.
What is this the caste system in India we live in now?
How is this the caste system? People can move up, I just don't think I should have to do it for them.
That's not capitalism, that's corporatism. Capitalism is the best of a bad selection...kind of like Romney in the Republican primary!!
But seriously, being an "Asshole" has nothing to do with "Being on top." Two separate issues there.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/purple-truth-does-lowering-taxes-on.html
so then what do you think we should do then? HUH? complain some more about this great nation and maybe it will finally kill you and leave you in the dust where you belong. Capitalism has built the most powerful country in the world....our country just refuses to use it.....so by bashing on capitalism you are tearing down the very thing that gave you the right to bitch and moan in the first place
I think we need to get money out of politics. I think we need campaign finance reform so we can restore the power to the people. I think we should end the federal reserve and the fractional banking system and go back to a gold standard. You should do something other than complain. Stop being blind to the ignorance your government has blanketed you with. We don't have a capitalist society anymore. We live in a monetary dictatorship. Money rules our politicians, not the people.
jesus....can you be any more of a hippie...our goverement is not perfect but it works
LULZ you are the most unproductive person I've ever heard a response from.
"It's not perfect so why would we fix it?"
Do you have any idea how fucking stupid that sounds?
well nothing is perfect.....no system is ever perfect....so when we find a system that works and does the job as good as we can.....that is as close to perfection as possible
I don't know man. Look into the federal reserve and how wall street works with our economy. I'm not saying you haven't. I'm just saying keep looking. Look into politicians and who they work with.
Calling people "hippies" doesn't solve anything. I'm not a hippie. I have a job. I pay taxes. But I'm still not blind that our government is corrupt and it's being done for mass profits at the expense of our economy. What happen if foreign countries want to stop accepting the US dollar because it's losing value and because the other countries are catching on to the fact the dollar isn't backed by anything. It's just being printed based odds. Our country has exported all of it's industry in search of profits at the expense of sweat shop labor in some cases and poor working conditions in others. They do this for profits. It's damaging our economy greatly. It's turning more into a pyramid scheme as time goes on. Ben Bernanke came out recently and said something like "the unemployment rate is going to get worse over the coming years." Why would the federal reserve be saying this? That's not good.
Socialism / Communism only works when the "undersireable / non-productive" segment of the society is removed (i.e. culled off) - So, let's start down the road to Utopia by doing away with the Union Members, Teachers, Professors, Politicians, Social Workers, etc. - and especially all those whiney 20 somethings at the occupy movements. We can make Soylent "Red" or "Green" out of them :-)
LULZ you are ridiculous. One day you will wake up. Communism sucks, socialism sucks. Capitalism works... but we don't have capitalism anymore. It's been hijacked. We live in a monetary dictatorship. We need to restore true capitalism and true democracy.
Capitalism is working out just fine for me, thanks.
Good for you! At least you're not spreading hate speech.
Government is the problem! Stop spending money we don't have!
Agreed. The wars are wasting our tax dollars in the number of trillions. And many many other ways.
What has been set into motion is a world wide awakening and with that awakening is anger. While OWS may linger for only a few more months, the awakening is permanent. The end result around the globe will be (1) total tyranny or (2) a complete change in systems. Those who like the current situation will not like either 1 or 2.
Resource based economy would use science and brains. No hierarchy, we would just take care of each other as big family when sametime developing new technologies to "make sure our race will be alive after millions years".
Hierarchial systems can be taken over, non-hierarchial systems can't be taken over because there is no big boss, there is just thinking people who call themselves scientists of the people.
Scientists can solve problems, politicians can just talk its little flat and little around. (You see why hierarchy not working, its simple, its not based on science)
We are now over 90 billion people. So there is lots of people wanting to do different jobs volunteerily free, because 90 billion people have lot of different personalities what are developing different works to do. There is also lazy people who want stay home and die, but also there is people in 90 billion who want to take care of those people and get their life somekind purpose.
Let's call ourselves earthlings because that we are. Earth population.
Everyday there is 20,000 homeless people dieing. We have more food than we need, so why people die still if we got lots of extra food? This is simple to understand, our culture in our today society system is not based on "take care of people around you and taking care also from earth". If society system based on taking care of people and take care of earth itself, we would live lot different society system.
Right now many people do not care what we doing to earth. Many people like open tv and watch it 24/7 and think their life have "real purpose". Think about it, do you want your life have real purpose or is it more interesting to live in wonderland? Should you wake up from dream and come out to see light and figure out how to create world what you want to see in your dreams!
These are just words so real ball is in your hands and you choose how to use it. Do you want wake up or do you want continue living in wonderland believing you are free to think?
there are NOT 90 billion people, there are a little over 7 billion people on the planet.
20,000 homeless (in the US) do not die each day. Only about 6,800 people die in the US a day, all together.
Throwing around outrageous numbers does not help your arguments, it only makes you seem foolish and misguided.
Problems are not only happening in usa, problems are worldwide.
so where did you get this statistic for the homeless people of THE WORLD? Is the 20,000 homeless deaths A DAY part of the 90 BILLION?
It sounds like you are making up numbers to be inflammatory.
Human memory is a tricky thing, some people just can't remember the numbers, so they just make them up in approximation to how they remembered them. I know, he should've look up the statistics which is worse then he actually presented: http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm
http://www.bread.org/hunger/global/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
90 Billiion people? Your numbers are off a bit there. Funny, I'm a big science buff myself, and what you just said was ridiculous. I'm assuming you meant it because you typed it twice. If we had 90 billion people on this planet we wouldn't be having this conversation. There are approximately 7 billion people on the planet.
Human memory is a tricky thing, some people just can't remember the numbers, so they just make them up in approximation to how they remembered them. I know, he should've look up the statistics which is worse then he actually presented: http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm
http://www.bread.org/hunger/global/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLUpGGmku8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SMrnx6nkRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wg1bH6-1YY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKS4i-u0OM
http://www.reverbnation.com/Killumination
Donate!!!
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=NKRL8TGE95H2Y
We know what the problem is, let us fix it and move forward together.
When you look at a republican or democrat, congress or FDA official, Judges and Justice Department you see criminals.
Our corruption dates back decades to when those who in trying to preserve slavery had to find new ways to preserve it and so created an advanced form of slavery.
only two components were required -- the illusion of freedom and choice and the taking away of the freedom to live off the land.
How else would you get a person to submit themselves to mind numbing or degrading work unless you oppress them into it.
our current system is rooted in corruption and every attempt in preserving it involves manipulating human thought and turning people against one another.
In America the population has been transformed in two major voting groups but they only have one choice.
They had been distracted up until now with television and American culture which prospered through the oppression of other nations.
Americans allowed themselves to be fooled into using their military and economic dominance to seize resources of other nations and create expanding markets for American profiteers.
Now that technology, competition and conscience have evolved Americans themselves are realizing that they cannot sustain themselves under their current system of government.
Our government officials have allowed private profits and personal benefits to influence decisions that affect the health and well-being of people all over the planet, not just in America... how much longer will we allow them to rule over us??
Occupy Washington and demand that all government officials resign their posts.
We will setup new online elections with a verification system that will allow us to see our votes after we cast them, put our new officials in office and work toward rebuilding our country and our world.
http://wesower.org
blocade makes some very good points. But the suggestion that we have online elections, while it may sound good at first, is not practical. There is no feasible way to hold elections using ANY form of e-voting that would not be vulnerable to massive fraud perpetrated by a very small number of people. If votes are cast online, the number of ways to corrupt election results increases substantially.
The only way we could be confident that our votes are properly recoded and tabulated is to hold old fashioned elections using hand-marked paper ballots counted and tabulated publicly by real people. The entire process must be under the close observation of poll watchers representing competing political organizations. The key is to live by the words, "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty".
A more detailed discussion justifying the need for manual elections is at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/manualCount.html
online elections would = immediate voter fraud
I have never seen capitalism in the US, so I don't know if it only works in theory. Subsidies are not a part of capitalism, bail outs are not a part of capitalism, "too big to fail" is not a part of capitalism and our current tax code does not support capitalism either. We have a capitalism/socialism/fascism hybrid of a system in the US. You really need to study up more before going off on such a rant.
Capitalism gave the power to the people with money. Those few then silenced our voice with the power that money has in a country. It is what started all this bullshit. It took a lot of time and it brought us here.
Also I ended this by calling our system a monetary dictatorship. So my rant had a great point. You really need to read the whole thing before you accuse people of not studying up.
I read the whole thing and you claim that capitalism is a pyramid scheme and that we live in a monetary dictatorship (no argument there). My point stands, based on your original post. While you may expand on your statement further in the replys, based on what you originally wrote, you missed the point.
What point did I miss? That we live in a capitalism/socialism/fascism hybrid? I can agree with that 100%. I just worded it differently. Because our government says "This is capitalism." So I defined what they call capitalism. Why are we playing semantics games?
It appears so as I was not aware of the underlying sarcasm.
lol, yea. and we've been living a theory since the middle ages right?
yeah because America was founded in the middle ages. Nice comment, dude.
thanks " Dude " lol. America wasn't the Topic. Capitalism was. Derrr. and yes. started wayyyy back then i suppose