Forum Post: cancel all debt- time to reset
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 25, 2011, 11:40 p.m. EST by alouis
(1511)
from New York, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://www.helpfreetheearth.com/news180_cancel.html Everyone knows that America and Europe are on the brink of an economic disaster but no one seems to know what to do about it. Even the people in charge of bailouts are flailing about. The common people, as usual, are left out in the cold.
What's causing the stinky mess? Fictional debts that are tied to assets that are no longer worth their book values.
The reason the economy is no longer functioning is because debts are greater than assets and the bankster MAFIA are protecting their criminal institutions.
The solution to the economic crisis is quite simple and effective - CANCEL ALL DEBT.
HIT THE RESET BUTTON CANCEL ALL DEBT means all credit cards, car notes, mortgages, the national debt, student debt, all of it. Hit the reset button on the financial system. We have reached the blue screen of death, the system is totally locked up. The negative effects of the financial melt down are now negatively affecting the real productive economy.
By releasing all debt, people will start with a fresh slate, and can start saving again. Banks, whose only assets are completely fiction -- they call debt an asset -- would take a big hit, but so what? "Bankster run banks" don't contribute to national wealth anyway. Their only utility is to enable real productivity, and in that basic function, they have completely failed, and are, in fact, counter-productive right now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_3K1PCZHE0&feature=player_embedded#!
There is a point in any business when it has to file bankruptcy. Quantity of corporations with wealth is shrinking while a few develop into monopolists.
Like Rockefeller once said - "Give everyone 10$ and after year 50% has 10$ and the rest owns nothing.
We never had capitalism for such a long time, we even cut of the gold valued based currency system to keep the numbers rising.
It had to come from somewhere even it it where loans and cc debts.
Germany after WWII started with zero. It gave them a great run into capitalism. Economist Dr. Erhard later warned to slow growth and consumption, he though it will lead to a rise of poverty and bankruptcy.
It tells me that all comes down to human behavior and education, no matter what the economic systems is.
We need to learn to set humanity before profits to succeed. Sometimes its better to deny growth in favor of stability. People got into dept for a reason.
Reducing employees income and replace them with opportunity to receive loans, tricky marketing offers, low education, idealizing wealth burning savings and investments on wall street, capital insurance fraud... to name a few did not and will not help anyone.
The way out in history, well look at the french revolution, the revolution in russia in early 20th century. China, we have all the samples...
It needs to get worst before it gets better.
Debt cancellation is a time honored tradition. Examples included the moratorium on payments of WWI debt which began in 1934. Debt cancellation may put many pension funds in jeopardy, but these problems can be handled with special dispensations. Bank failures would require the government to guarantee deposits up to a certain level. It can work!
It is ideas like this that give the movement a bad name. Try taking an economics course, or just using common sense.
It is ideas like this that give the movement a bad name. Try taking an economics course, or just using common sense.
do not cancell any debt
The idea of the banks recovering the loss thru selling the property is, at this time, ludicrous
Idea: Banks should be required to ' Suspend' payments and interest accumulation if a person loses their job during an 'economic downturn' until that person finds a comparable paying job or until the national unemployment rate is less than 5%.
i could live with that
So we should reneg on our agreements just because we 'need' it? Should we be honest men of our word, or dirty liars?
ever hear of bankruptcy court? the nation and indeed the world needs exactly that relief
You end up paying for your debts (as much as possible) through bankruptcy court, because they take everything from you to pay the debt off.
This is stupid and will never happen. All you are doing is wacking off
Is cancelling all debt a legitimate solution? That's literally trillions of dollars we're just going to leave unpaid. Somebody's going to be left footing the bill somewhere along the line.
And check this out: The 1% speak in Chicago. Check out what they said. Wow. http://wwwtapolitics.blogspot.com/2011/10/word-from-1.html
World Collapse is inevitable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOzR3UAyXao
Whether the financial system or the ecological system collapses first is up to us.
However, simply forgiving debt right now would essentially reset the monetary system. This would cause all sorts of havoc as many are unaware of alternative ways in which to distribute goods/services nor of alternative means of organizing society.
Many must at least become familiar with resource based economics before the reset button can be hit safely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOO_AVwfZ9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://thevenusproject.com/
Canceling all debt is the same thing as abolishing lending. If you never plan to borrow money ever again for the rest of your life then you're entitled to support this idea. Otherwise this is just stupid. And the only people who never plan to ever borrow money again are rich people. Abolishing lending would only hurt the 99%, not the 1%.
I kind of resent the fact that I paid all my debts and lived responsibly, now people who spent like drunken sailors will be allowed to go off scot free?
If that's the 99%, I'm not part of it. Maybe you people just lived like jerks.
Yeah - all of those jerks who borrowed money for college, and can't find a job, since corporations fired millions to keep the profit margins in line. Those jerks?
This action would crash the entire world economy. Money would be worthless, people that only had money and no hard assets would not be able to barter for basic needs. There would be mass starvation, chaos and violence as people killed one another for basic goods. Production would stop and goods would become ever more scarce. Ever see a movie like "Book of Eli"? That is what it would be like.
Are you including all foreign debt in this?
I was just reading a profile of David Graeber in businessweek. It talks about his call for a Biblical Jubilee (forgiveness of all debts).
I support the goals of OWS, but that made me pause for a second. I have no debt, largely through my own sacrifices (but not totally, and it's that little window that gives me pause.)
My kneejerk reaction is to say, why do I get penalized here, for not borrowing when the getting was good? For exercising prudence and foresight?
On the other hand, I know how debt is choking the world and I want to do something about it. It's a dilemma.
"I know how debt is choking the world and I want to do something about it."
There you go!
http://nationaldebtclocks.com/unitedstates.htm
Does this even include debts of states, municipalities and agencies like Triborough Bridge and Tunnel authority? I bet not. At past $50,000 per person one way or other this debt will be repudiated eventually.
If you look at my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-is-money/ you'll understand I have a tendency to agree. People who are obsessed over money, whether they the rich who have it or the poor who don't, suffer from delusions. Money is just a token we use to facilitate commerce, and it has no intrinsic value. The VALUE in an economy is in the goods and services it produces, not its "money".
On the other had, remember that there are a LOT of good people who will be hurt by a "debt holiday" because you will immediately devalue their savings. Consider retired people living on their meager savings, for example. This is an issue whether we "retire all debt" or simply print the money and hand it out. They're the same thing.
With governments out of debt and rich people paying their taxes I don't believe any of the 99% need be harmed.
Consider this... if we introduce a shock to the system by doing as you propose in one declaration, we will create chaos. If we do EXACTLY the same thing by printing money and distributing it, we accomplish the same thing more gradually and avoid the shock/chaos. This is essentially what the Fed is doing, yet a LOT of people in OWS object saying "we shouldn't print money." If we DON'T print money, we have a VERY serious problem; the rich and China hold so much of it, there isn't enough money LEFT for commerce if we DON'T print some more !
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm............
What a crock. Come on! Some of us are trying to be realistic here.
Well, some of us want to push the envelope. And even Deuteronomy advocates debt amnesties.
There is no way to do this in an equitable manner. How about the poor slob who worked 3 shitty jobs to pay off his debt and makes his last payment the month before all debt is forgiven? I went to college 20 some years ago, can I get my money back? This is simply not realistic but more importantly it will not actually change anything systemically.
Each day I grow further distanced by the pure ignorance and selfish suggestions. Keep this rhetoric front and center and you are co-signatory on your own muerto certificate.
It's true. This kind of stuff turns off the very people this movement needs to win over.
Well then, read a book and you won't make those types of remarks so often.
Read, hmmm. So do tell; since we have hit the realm of utopian essence. How can one explain, more pointedly you, that even Henry D. Thoreau took time between tending the bean fields in Walden to have dinner with Ralph W. Emerson - see the irony? And to move a little deeper ( I need to read more) do tell, how the philosophy of I. Kant, specifically related to time/space within an "a priori" fits into all of this. Let's see what you come up with in your passive research thanks to Google......feeling silly yet?
nupe
Well you should. Be careful when you play the "intellectual" card. Despite the attempts by progressive Normangoldman types, there are conservatives who are ad well read along the perameters of a Samuel Johnson bearing the linguistic fortitude of Professor James Murray.
Money is not real. Money is a tool.
The tool is not working if it is being used incorrectly.
yep
It's time to go fight club on this shit!
huh?
I like it. There is really no other way. We will never be able to pay worldwide debt so let's all file BK. All banks will go out of business but this will allow us to redesign the financial institution and have it work for every citizen. Collectively like credit unions.
Of course it would work. Without a value standard such as gold there never was any money. Countries have done exactly this same thing in the past. If the system goes back to worthless paper money the same thing will eventually happen again. It will happen, what I don't know is if it will be a controlled burn of debt or a fire out of control. But it will happen of that I am sure.
Everyone in the world could collectively start buying businesses. Every person will be a share holder, and have 1 vote to control the businesses. We can make a Corporation that is owned by everyone and ran by a delegate of our choosing. All the profits will go to whatever the people choose, by a vote. http://occupywallst.org/forum/fight-fire-with-fire/
Jct: My placard at Occupy Toronto says: "Don't cancel debt. Cancel debt growth first. Abolish Interest." Who are you going to stick with the loss, the pensioners? Better to start a US Treasury PayPal where anyone can log on to open an account, cut US Treasury Dollars checks to settle all your interest-bearing debts so all payments back go against principal and we're eventually out of debt. Only the usury keeps us enslaved forever by exponential debts. So rather than dig the poor out from under their mountain of debt while the interest conveyor belt is dumping more on top every year, the Engineer is going after the conveyor belt.... switch. "Cancel debts" is threatening. "Stabilize debts" and see which ought to be cancelled is a completely less threatening financial reform. We don't need to take from the rich to give to the poor, we just have to stop the banks taking from the poor to give interest to the rich and see how that works first. Worked before: Nehemiah 5:10 is debt liberation inspiration for us all. "Let the exacting of interest stop." They did and rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem at full employment in record time. So, the focus should be on cancelling the mountain but switching off the conveyor belt of exponential increase.
Want to start the process? Try this - http://occupywallst.org/forum/killnetflix/
after you do this, no one would ever be available to lend you money again. good luck with that plan
It's going to happen neatly or sloppily. Debt is crushing the economy and will one way or the other be thrown off.
the student loan system is a scam. the government needs to stop 100% guaranteeing that debt.
the bad debt from the housing overhang is retarding growth as well. someone severely underwater should just allow themselves to default if the bank will not write down principal. note the government is doing the opposite of this - it is trying program after program to prop up the bubble and keep the bad debt which is in the interest of no one but bankers. all the government housing programs do is allow someone to continue to be a debt slave in their own home/debtor's prison. the only way to get rid of it is through principal write-downs where they make sense, or more foreclosures - and probably a lot more of the latter. but who can campaign on that?
no one lends me money now
[Deleted]
oh boo hoo. "Laney gets pudding and I don't?"
I don't really have debt and I think this is a great idea. It would save you tax dollars as well which currently go to pay off interest on bullshit debts to the Federal Reserve.
The monetary system and our tax policy in this country is bullshit. It needs a reset and new regulations.
We need a monetary policy that benefits society, not banksters.
[Deleted]
I could see that. I also think we need to regulate loans so debts can never exceed 110% of the loan. With the 29.9% annual... some people get trapped.
Hammurabi Knew Better Debt Slavery – Why It Destroyed Rome, Why It Will Destroy Us Unless It’s Stopped
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/12/02/debt-slavery-–-why-it-destroyed-rome-why-it-will-destroy-us-unless-it’s-stopped/
As President Obama prepares to outline a deficit-reduction plan that includes tax increases, as well as cuts to programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, anthropologist David Graeber proposes a radical solution: cancel the debt of the nation’s poor. Amy Goodman interviews David Graeber on Democracy Now.
Here is an excerpt from the transcript:
AMY GOODMAN: David Graeber, talk about debt cancellation.
DAVID GRAEBER: Well, one of the things that I discovered in researching my book is that the kind of debt crisis we’re experiencing now, being a real debt crisis, which is a debt crisis that affects ordinary people, debts between the very wealthy or between governments can always be renegotiated and always have been throughout world history. They’re not anything set in stone. It’s, generally speaking, when you have debts owed by the poor to the rich that suddenly debts become a sacred obligation, more important than anything else. The idea of renegotiating them becomes unthinkable. In the past, though, there have been mechanisms, when things get to a point of real social crisis, that have always existed. And they vary by the period of history. In the ancient Middle East, often new kings would simply declare a clean slate and cancel all debts, or all consumer debts, commercial debts, between merchants were often left alone. The Jubilee was a way of institutionalizing that. In the Middle Ages, there were bans on interest taking entirely. There have been many mechanisms.
But whenever you have what I call a period of virtual credit money, when money is recognized not to be a thing like gold and silver, but a social relation or promise that people make to each other, which has become increasingly clear since the ’70s, when we went off the gold standard—and I think 2008 really brought that home—debts can be renegotiated. They’re not set in stone. Trillions of dollars of debt was made to disappear. We understand now that this is a political arrangement, and it can always be readjusted. And I think what the people coming to the squares—and Wall Street now included—are saying is that, well, if that’s true, if democracy is going to mean anything now, we’re all going to have to be able to weigh in on what sort of promises are made and what sort of promises are adjusted when you enter into a crisis.
Read more…..
And there’s a new proposal heading to the American Congress that would dramatically trim down many American students’ bills: forgiving all student loans. As reported on Edudemic…
Should All Student Loan Debt Be Erased? 200000 People Think So …
Forgiving the student loan debt of all Americans will have an immediate stimulative effect on our economy. With the stroke of the President’s pen, millions of Americans would suddenly have hundreds, or in some … Hansen Clarke (D-MI), seeking student loan forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus. For over 30 years, the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer, and the middle class is slowly but surely being squeezed out of existence. Instead of more …
Publish Date: 09/16/2011 11:04
http://edudemic.com/2011/09/student-loan-debt-erased/
The petition is at SignOn.org Right now, over 310,000 people are supporting this petition.
Cambodia did something like this once and it worked out real well, While the rest of the world was in 1977, they were in year 0. Not only did they erase all debt, they erased about 1/3 of their population, and those left behind were, of course, re-educated. Pol Pot would be proud of the direction this movement is starting to take.
Oh, and while we're at it, lets get a 5 year plan started...
Thank you, Glen Beck.
Well looking at the progress they're making in China that part about a 5 year plan might have some merit. The rest is balderdash. Argentina told the IMF to bug off and did just fine. It's on this page somewhere.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-10/25/c_131212231.htm
China to break ground on 10 mln low-income apartments by end of Nov. English.news.cn 2011-10-25 21:14:41 FeedbackPrintRSS BEIJING, Oct. 25 (Xinhua) -- China will have begun construction on 10 million low-income housing projects by the end of November, the Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural Development said on Tuesday.
According to the ministry's statistics, by the end of September, plans were finished for 98 percent of the planned construction projects, or 9.86 million apartments.
Minister of Housing and Urban-Rural Development Jiang Weixin said the apartments include 1.65 million low-rent apartments, 1.10 million low-income apartments and 2.27 million public rental apartments.
Jiang said the central government has allocated 152.2 billion yuan (23.9 billion U.S. dollars) to subsidize the construction efforts on top of a 1.3 trillion yuan construction fund.
However, Jiang also pointed out major problems in the construction efforts, including poor support facilities, faulty distribution and management, fundraising issues, a lack of top-level planning and lagging regulation development.
Will I get a tax credit for saving, having no debt, and paying cash for my house?
sounds like the house is already in order
do such a case need more?
write your congressman.