Forum Post: Call me a troll if you want to but I am worth 400 times any of YOU!!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 25, 2011, 12:58 a.m. EST by vettezeppelin
(163)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
In 1969 the average CEO made 40 times what the average worker made, now they make over 400 times what the average worker makes. I pledge that as a business owner, I will never take more than 40 times what my average employee wages are and I believe that there should be a law that prohibits any 1 individual from making more than 40 times what the average wages are in the organization they are in. You can still make as much as you want through hard work but you will have to take your employees up with you and isn't that true fairness!?!
Okay, I can agree with this. You seem reasonable enough. :-)
Thank you Salaam...I appreciate your kind reply. Have an AWESOME Day!!
I concur, what a reasonable and measured response. Hope he sticks around with us :)
Freepatriotism.com bro
I am a business owner.. a small business.. why shouldnt you be allowed to make 40 50 even 100 times what you average worker makes? you assumed all liabilities, built your business with your hard work and sweat... if your employee does not like how you pay him let him go open his own business and put you out of business Thats what I did with my old boss who paid me $10.50 an hour when he paid my coworkers $15 + an hour even though my work was superior to the rest.. I started small, opened my own business and so far.. took over about 40% of his clientele.. if it wasnt for capitalism I would have starved to death at $10.50 an hour
Yes until someone bigger catches wind of your success - bye bye business license after they grease a town official bye bye success after they do some market research and realize if they open up next door they can drive you out and take you over or quick books sells them your business data. Bye bye success after your landlord realizes your profits are increasing and he decides he wants a piece. How did you even get the funding to open the business might I ask? What is your collateral if you were only making $10.50 an hour and starving... where did your start up capital come from?
The idea is that the labor you use in your business should have an opportunity to share in gains when your company does well because their efforts helped earn those profits. As an example, if you are paying an average worker $20,000 a year (about 10/hr for a 40 hr week times 52 weeks) you can make $800,000. That sounds pretty reasonable. Now, if you want to take home $1M all it means is you would have to increase your average workers pay by a whole $5,000 per year. You probably already do this, most companies do, but just don't like the idea of someone telling you how to run your business, which is understandable. But when the CEO of JP Morgan makes $20.8M in 2010,an increase of 1,541% and lays off 10,000 employees since 2008 it makes the little guy feel like the big wigs line their pockets with their livelihood and the only option is regulation.
the idea of limiting what any one individual to 40 times what the average wage is in that organization still means that if an employee doesnt like what they get paid, they can still leave and start their own business. It still means the boss can pay you 10.50 and pay everyone else 15.00 even though you are better...the only thing it does do is to help limit the overall disparity of wealth in the country. The risk I take is paid back to me 2 ways..1 is that I can pay myself up to 40 times what I pay my employees and I can take 100% of the proceeds when I sell the company. Somehow I think thats plenty reward for the risk. Remember if the average wage in your company is 9.00 per hour you can pay yourself 748,800.00 per year!! While we may disagree, I do want to wish you the best of luck on your business amd congratulate you on your success thus far!!
I like this idea. I am an entrepreneur, and sometimes outsource work to other providers. When I do so, my profit is very small. I refuse to exploit others, and insist on paying fair wages when I use the labors of others. I couldn't live with myself or sleep at night, otherwise.
tonybaldwin, we need more like you...I have actually thought about starting an association of businesses that would subcribe to the 40times idea...this association might be something that businesses join, commit to the pledge then the association takes dues to go out and promote these businesses as good companies for consumers to choose to spend their money with because of how the member companies have committed to the 40 times plan which benefits the employees and in turn is a benefit for the community these businesses are in. No doubt that some people prefer and will frequent places they feel conduct business in a fair and ethical manner so maybe we could use this idea to help business do the right thing and see additional customers because of it!!
I see nothing wrong with a hard working business owner doing right by himself and his employees. The goal is to find a win-win strategy. To enjoy the fruits of your hard work, but not at the expense of some other hard working person's food and shelter. If someone wasn't a good worker, that's a different story. But this movement is loaded with hard working, educated, motivated people who are simply competing with 10 people for every 1 job available. Most people are not asking for the CEOs to make minimum wages. They just want a fair shot.
If you had the foresight and courage to start a business, and it is successful, you deserve to be paid more. Of course there's a grey area but it comes down to balance. Doing what you think is right. Putting yourself in the other person's shoes, thinking about how you would hope they'd treat you if the roles were reversed. 40 times is a lot better than 400. That's for sure. What most people are protesting is the CEOs who take $60 million bonuses and lay off 30,000 to make it feasible. That's the kind of thing people want to address.
I think having a yacht would be a wonderful thing. But if I had to choose between that and creating opportunities for thousands of people to be lifted out of poverty, I would spend that money trying to figure out a way to create jobs for those others who are going through terrible suffering. It's just about doing the right thing.
JPHOENIX- You are exactly right and based on how I read your post, you really get what I am trying to say and do and to make happen. I would love to see all businesses subcribe to something like I outlined, so that people who work hard and contribute get rewarded, as opposed to outsourced while a few take the fruits of the success. We need balance...Yes a yacht would be nice but a yacht floats on water and to be able to float a bigger yacht, the water needs to be higher..right now we have lots of big yachts but an increasing lower water level and if the yachts keep draining away the water, they will beach themselves too!!
Spain plundered the world and spent all the money on its rich to just sit around and have fun. Meanwhile they paid all the surrounding countries like Germany and France to work and make their stuff. The super rich eventually ran out of money and meanwhile they created a solid middle class in the other countries. Eventually Spain dwindled because they didn't build up their middle class. Same thing will happen to us. It just makes sense for the rich to take the rest of us with them. History repeats itself people.
Awesome way to drive the point 20percentofworld...what you speak of is a real world example of what happens when a few control so much of the wealth...of course there are plenty examples in history but oh well we dont know any of that..gotta go watch keeping up with the Karwhatevertheyares now!!
True leadership! :) bringing the people up with you, not keeping them down so you can have more. Bravo, my friend.
Well said Nulambda!! Now we gotta see if we can make this happen!! Have an AWESOME DAY!!!
This entire post ties in with the concept of a living wage which would be adjusted for inflation, which in my experience 90+ % of OWS protestors agree with. We don't even think a CEO should cap their salaries! The simple truth, is that we just expect them to pay salaries at around 12 to 15 dollars an hour as a bare minimum (for minimum wage workers, anyone making more than that already would be unaffected). And half of that could be subsidized by the government, so business owners might even pay a little less than they currently do. But the conservatives scream "SOCIALISM" anytime we suggest this. It's one of the reasons why we protest. Enough is enough. Thanks for the neat post, Vette. We all appreciate it.
This is what I've been calling a floating wage ratio. It's within congress' authority and it would supercharge the economy faster than any other policy. It would go something like:
"Wages for the highest-paid employee in any enterprise, including public and private, for-profit and not-for-profit, and all subsidiaries owned in whole or in part, may not exceed fifty times the wages for the lowest-paid employee for an equal amount of time. 'Wages' includes all forms of compensation, including but not limited to stocks and stock options, expense accounts, benefits and other perquisites. 'Subsidiaries owned in part' includes vendors when a substantial (more than 20%) of total labor hours incurred by the enterprise has been outsourced. Volunteers and employees who derive a substantial portion (more than 60%) of their wages from voluntary tips are exempt."
A flat minimum across all industries, even adjusted regionally, doesn't account for wide differences in economic sectors and still allows companies to pay senior executives obscene salaries, which is the main source of the problem. A wage ratio would be adjusted by enterprise and force a whole new set of priorities in budgeting at the highest levels. Do we pay ourselves a gajillion dollars and raise the receptionist's salary to seven figures? Or do we tamp down the massive payouts and use that money for other things, like reinvestment in the company (stimulative), higher salaries for low-level employees (stimulative), or higher dividends (stimulative). Either way, it's the closest thing I've seen that would actually make all that wealth trickle down.
It might, however, be important to pass a constitutional amendment that prevents the Supreme Court from equating the spending of money as an expression of speech BEFORE such a law is passed or they may see a reason to use the first amendment to strike it down.
I agree!!
I agree, with this. Its fair because if it weren't for your employees you would't have all that money. good for you .
Thank you imhotep3223...as we move toward our next election I hope we keep in mind that good regulations don't hurt good business people, they level the playing field and create honest competition, if that still actually exists today. Employees make companies money by doing the work that the companies needs and requires but all to often they are viewed as dispensable and as overhead. Funny because a lot of peoples egos play right into this. When they hear about Unions getting chopped they say, well good let them get another job, I did and look at me, I don't get what they get so they shouldn't either...Hmmm maybe you should get what they get and the CEO shouldn't get another V12 Benz he or she doesn't need!!!
A great thread. Thanks vettezeppelin!
Thanks SloHand....even Clapton and Page can agree on something, why cant our congress!?!
So what do you want now a Fu_kin CROWN!
Nope, I want a country where the disparity in Wealth isn't the largest of any industrialized nation..oh and I want some of those "cheesy grits" that Mitt Romney claims to eat!!
So materialism is the yard stick by which you measure the value of human beings. So sad. Who ever on their deathbed said, "I really wish I had had a bigger home, and a better car?"
You need to shake yourself right down to the foundations of your soul, and look into that void, that utter empty void of your interpretation of the vast mystery of human existance. If you don't you will die with many regrets.
GypsyKing- You have drawn a conclusion that does not match what I think or how I measure a human being. I merely propose that the current structure of wages and the disparity in wealth in our country is out of wack. When the average CEO makes 400 times what the average worker makes that's simply not fair even if the CEO is a golden god of CEO's. 40 times is enough and benefits everyone..oh and by the way, if people make a good wage, maybe that allows them to on their death bed not have to say "I wish I could have spent more time with my family instead of working a bizillion hours making low pay to just get by!"
You're right, I misinterprested the meaning of your post. Sorry about that.. It's been a battle here again lately. I thinkI was past the point I should have gotten some ZZZs. As I am right now. Good night.
Hey GypsyKing- It takes a big person to admit a mistake. You did and that's admirable. Wouldn’t be nice if our elected officials and those in power had the same integrity as you!! Our world would be better! Thank YOU!!
I dont see how your title fits your post. Are you being sarcastic or was that an insult? If i went to the trouble of starting a business, invested my time, money, ideas, and faced risk, I would also see it as fair to earn more than an employee.
That said, though, my son worked for a small business owner who paid very badly for extremely hard work that was also dangerous at times. My son quit, and I supported that. I applied a job with a small business. When they made me an offer, i turned it down. The working conditions, hours, and pay were horrible. If a business owner does not treat employees lives as valuable I cant support them making any more than do their employees because they are themselves of no value to the human race. If one does not respect my life or my contribution, I cannot respect theirs.
Faithntruth, I agree with your comments...no business should be treating employees poorly..first off it doesnt make sense from a productivity standpoint and secondly, if a business treats its employees poorly,that will be reflected in how its clients get treated and that effects the bottomline and not in a positive way. Also on my title, back when I posted, there was lots of "trolling" going on so I used that title to grab some attention, I confess but I do believe in the 40times rule and have committed to it in my business although like many small business owners, I am way under that 40times anyway. I see my people everyday and I wouldnt feel right about pulling up in a v12 Benz while they drive old cars so I will always pay them well so they live well amd I cam feel good about it!!
I beat you..I'm worth 1000 times more than anyone in existence, from my perspective of course.
from my perspective you are worth whatever you say you are to either you or your Mom or both and I hope its a high amount in either case!!
I think all should keep any money they make...Please protest something like the high prise of cable & sattelite
They are keeping all the money they "make" now. My premise is that they dont actually "make" the money all by themselves, the top 1% usually own business or are part of a company which means there are other workers there that contribute to the success of the company and those people deserve to make more too. What seems to be happening now is, CEOs ask workers for consessions, outsource jobs to China and then when the company makes more profit, they reward themselves with a nice big pay raise. Now I understand that the workers cannleave and find other jobs but really where will they go when thisnis the business model most businesses follow now.
I have been thinking and although this is a good way to keep capitalism alive i dont think this should be a permanent solution but it can allow for improvement, and for a better transition to a better and more successful method. I believe that one day we wont even need to worry about social classes as I hope that with technology and new forms of tools there will be a better and more efficient method. The 40 X rule is nice, but will it outdue greed and selfishness? It might put the finger in the damn, but as to solve the problem involving corporate greed? what is to stop them from making the same mistake.
I do have concerns that whatever rule we come up with, someone will find a way around it but this is a start as you said. Somehow, we will need to change a basic mission of companies away from just generating profits to being a company of positive social value.. one that provides good products and jobs while being a positive part of the community it is in. Well good luck but hopefully we can!!
Brother can you spare a dime for a man down on his luck?
In a country with this much wealth, no one should have to panhandle or beg for money. We should all be ashamed that this happens and we let it. Theres no excuse.
That's a cool idea so it will probably get sh*t-canned.
HittGirl is a HIT with me!! Thank you for your kind comment..I do hope the idea doesnt get sh-tcanned but instead becomes something that Occupy takes on as a platform!
Change is in the air. I, for one, am sick and tired of CEO's getting rewarded with millions of dollars to betray our country. Justice must be served.
HitGirl is a HIT with me! I totally agree and its so awesome that America is waking up to whats been happening over the past 30 years...it makes me crazy when I hear some person making 30 or 40k a year defending low taxes for so called job creators and bonuses for CEOs and the wealthy...I know its because they believe(wrongly) that they will be rich someday so they dont want their dream spoiled by having to pay a little higher tax or maybe keep jobs here or pay their workers fair..,naaah lots of people have the fantasy of being rich someday and sticking it to everyone all while they are really being stuck by that fantasy as they support corporations and politicians that do not have their best interests in mind. Lets work hard to make this change happen!! You are AWESOME!!!
I'm just a concerned citizen who wants to be proud of her country again.
I agree and am glad there concerned citizens like YOU out there doing their part to make our country great again! When did it become OK to close the plant here and send the work overseas? When did it become OK for CEOs to slash wages and lay off people then give themselves a big bonus for doing so? When did it become OK to get people to remortgage their homes, buy more home than they can afford then throw them out when they cant pay the payments because the aforementioned CEOs outsourced their jobs? When did the majority of American become against themselves by not supporting workers rights and Unions? I dont know what happened to us and how it was that we fell asleep or were gassed by the rightwing media machine but I think they finally went too far and the American people are seeing things how they really are for the first time in decades..Still while I am not exactly happy with our current President, I can see him losing to one of those very right wingers that helped gas us into this haze in the first place and we cant let that happen either!!
I don't worry about that. Look at recent history. The trend is toward populism. The Force is with us...I hope.
I hope so, but what happens if they come out with a new Reality Show starring Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, Brittany Spears and the Kardasions...most of America will be watching it in their snuggies while, Obama(far from perfect) loses to Mitt tax breaks for the rich Romney or Rick 16th century Santorum!!
That scenario is pretty unlikely, but it's nice to know vettezeppelin won't tolerate no snuggie-wearin slackers.
Hey HitGirl, I wrote that while wearing my snuggie watching American Idol!! Not Really!!!!
I like that proposal that you have placed forth, if people are making over 40 times what an average person makes; the wealth could be distributed to the people because its people that feed the CEO with the current 400 X salary. So anything above 40X will be distributed to the civilians, or organizations involved in solely to help the future, not hurt it with greed. Therefore one has to consider that this world has become rotten with false political leaders, used for the purpose of entertainment. We see this with the candidates of the republican party, as the current state of this nation is to destroy all the credibility of the political system. As people's faith with the government and its corporations diminish, I see a similar trend to what was and is happening in Puerto Rico. Which means that this country will be undergoing a governmental collapse, I believe that it is too late to avoid the results of the consequences created by the individuals of the 1%, but I believe that this movement can bring new and innovative solutions to the table, which must be considered when the inevitable occurs. KEEP UP fighting! You guys give the youth hope for a brighter future.
Thank You for your thoughtful post. I hope we arent headed toward a collapse but I think you are right. While I think many of us hoped we had a strong leader in 2008, I think he got "schooled" once he stepped into the whitehouse that all those bold and big ideas he had are all going by the wayside and he had better tow the corporate donor line which is why we got some of the legislation we did. You may want to check out GetMoneyOut.Com. This seems like a step in the right direction too! Have an Awesome Evening!!
however i think that we can reduce that 40 to a better number if a better number arises, or if anyone can put any imput. If not I do agree with the post of 40 times current annual salary which is roughly 40000 a year makes sense because currently as the system goes money influences people. I do understand that however, we must not fall towards blind greed, as we must make careful decisions with the distributions and we must not allow the same mistakes that have happened in the past to occur again.
I agree letsfart4peace..the 40 times number could be less or more based on what we could get people(not everyone of course) to agree on and move toward making it some sort of national push or international push to reality! At the very least maybe we could establish a watchdog group that encourages businesses to adhere to the 40times rule and rewards those that do with good publicity from our watchdog group and added business from consumers that care and are like minded about the greed that has overtaken our corporate culture.
U don't own a business and more laws = bad
I am sorry that you think I am not telling the truth when I say I am a business owner. I assure you I am telling the truth and am a business owner. I do see how you might think I am lying because no business owner is going to limit restrict what he or she can pay themselves right!?! Well, I dont see this 40 times idea as a limit. I see it as a way to insure that none of us forgets about the people that help us build our companies and makes sure we pay them fairly. I can still pay myself whatever I feel I can take without harming my company. I just need to ask if I give myself a pay raise, is it justified by the companies overall performance and if so doesnt that mean that others in the company contributed to that performance!?! I think in almost every case the answer would be yes to the last question if the answer to the first question is yes and if thats the case, those that helped grow the company should be beneficiaries of its success along with its owner. Just my thoughts.
i see the common sense in your case, however, we must not forget the less unfortunate that also struggle in this country, and if we feel that we must take and give ourselves a raise, is falling back to greed. we by no means need to acquire raises, if payment is distributed equally, obviously one would think that owners did contribute to its performance, and i do agree as well. although if this is the decision that is taken, place a limit to what an owner receives, but it should not be an exaggerated amount if hierarchy needs to be established to run a successful business, i would say that owners must earn less than 1 million. Enough to be influential as well as beneficial, not given them too much power, and this will require that no bonuses will be given to owners that cap at 1 million. And this must be concrete, no exceptions. Because laws are necessary, i dont agree that making laws solve problems, but if we reduce the amount of laws and create more efficient and beneficial laws we might see change.
letsfart4peace, you make many good points but I still am of the mind not to set a limit on what anyone can earn but to merely put some semblence of fairness in how people get laid at all levels. the people at the top give themselves pay raises all while outsourcong jobs, lowering benefits and pay amd that aint how it should be..if a company makes money and the deserves a raise, most likely all or most of the workers deserve one too but I do not want to limit what the top can make because that means we all get limited.
Prove what you have said.What company did you start. I suspect it is a lawn mowing service.
HI Forrest- I am sorry but this is a public forum so I cannot provide information on my business. I can tell you it isnt a lawn service but I know some landscaping companies that do really well. Sorry you do not think I am being honest. I am but I can imagine it would be hard to believe that any business owner would propose what I have since it means I have to pay my people more in order for me to make more if I am at the 40 times limit. I just believe that we all do better when the disparity isnt as great as it is now and this is my idea on how to change it while still creating incentive for everyone to work hard and aspire to do better and move up the ladder!!!
"I am sorry but this is a public forum so I cannot provide information on my business."
According to your profile it is a business in the "staffing industry." Does that mean a temp agency?
We are not a Temp Agency, we find people long term jobs, direct hire jobs and work to hire jobs. One thing I like about what we do is that many of the people we work with get hired into the companies we service.
http://www.robomow.com/videos/robomow/
of course lawn mowing will be the least of our problems if the economy collapses. Growing a family garden would save money on food purchases as well.
this sounds like a pretty good idea. a higher cap would probably be more popular.
Thank You Alice...I chose that 40 times ratio because that is what the average CEO made in relation to workers pay in 1969(its 400 times now). In 1969, we had a thriving middle class. People could get good jobs even if they didnt have a degree and they had health benefits fully paid for, pensions, both spouses didnt have to work, we didnt have to look for a new job every few years because ours got outsourced...anyway, thats all gone now and its because the money for those things simply got shifted to the top...they said its because of global competition and technology...well first off it is American companies creating the jobs overseas by taking them from here and we are developing the technology then our companies take it to China to have it built, China steals it and builds it cheaper and hence they dominate the solar panel industry now! Anyway, sorry to rant...thank you for posting here!!
Then why are you posting here? I assume if you where really a massively rich corporate big wig then you would have something better to do than make fun of people on the internet. Go back and do rich person things, release a herd of impoverished people into the forest and hunt them for sport, put two pregnant women in a locked room and tell them that they cant leave until one eats the others featus. By the way BULLSHIT! Show me any proof of this and maybe I would believe you, as it stands you could be some random poster from 4Chan who wanted to have a quick laugh before bragging about your forty inch cock and you're hot girlfriend who definately exists.
eliphas8- I think you missed my point. Todays CEOs on average make over 400 times what the average workers make...they are the ones who might be doing the rich person things you outlined in your post..although I dont think even they do that stuff but it was creative thinking on your part and I thought it was hilarious. Anyway, my thought is to limit what the top people can take from the companies they own or run or work it to 40 times what the average workers make in that company, this still allows the top people to take unlimited income based on the success of that company but it insures that they will reward the employees that are part of that company. That just seems fair to me.
The part about rich people things was joke so YAY! Though I do agree more now that I realise you arent just trying to say that the person in charge always SHOULD make more than 40 times the average workers salary, sorry for insulting you.
no apology needed...and you are right that I do not think the top should always get 40times more...that should be the absolute max.. I chose that number because in 1969 the average CEO made 40 times what the average worker made..now its 400 times...in 1969 workers had fully paid for health care, pensions and both spouses didnt have to work...thats all gone now but the CEOs get 400 times!?! Thats where all the money went and why workers don't get rhose benefits anymore...they tell us to blame globalization but really the money just got shifted to the top as they reduced workers pay and benefits packages and outsourced jobs. So they may not literally make pregnant women eat fetuses, they have been doing virtually the equivalent to the middle class! And hey maybe they are releasing heards of impoverished and hunting them for sport..what do I know!?! Have an Awesome Morning!!
Nice I like that 40 times the annual salary even more, this is good, we are getting good ideas across the table
That could work if people weren't zero sum oriented in the first place.
I agree and hope that OWS will have an impact so people wake up and realize that if we all do good then we all do good ...yachts need water to float on and support them..if the yachts drain the water eventually those yachts will run a ground but if the yachts preserve and add to the water the water will rise and can support bigger yachts!!!
yep... and the more of my neighbors that are out of work and on the down and out... the more that self perpetuating situation affects my own well being... and if it doesn't affect me today, that bill will come due for our children's children to settle up someday.
The pathology must somehow be removed from our business interactions. I think that will only happen when our government treats the property (businesses) of individuals as property instead of as a person protected by the Bill of Rights... We are a community of people that simply manage our properties.
good thought PhilArthur and well said!!
"I believe that there should be a law that prohibits any 1 individual from making more than 40 times what the average wages are in the organization they are in."
Why? Really, I want to know.
omg..thank you for the question..the disparity on wealth in our country is greater now than in anytime since the early 30s..my idea for a law to limit the top to taking 40times is designed in hope to still allow top people to make unlimited income but to insure that the people in the organizations that are there supprting these top people and helping them in their success, share more in that success. What I see happening now is companies pay as little as they can and the CEOs have increased their pay to over 400 times...they have done that by outsourcing jobs, eliminating pensions, passing along health care benefits costs to the employee or eliminating that benefit altogether...all while these CEOs have greatly profited from those moves and the rest of the employees are left with less and less every year. This isnt my guess, you can check out the latest reports from the CBO showing that in the past 20 years the top 1% has increased their wealth by 4 times while the rest of us have basically had stagnent growth in income. 40 Times is my suggestion to help return us to the country with a great and prosperous middle class!
IMO The way you fix that is by either refusing to consume the company's g/s and let them know or create your own company and regulate yourself... not to take away freedom from everybody.
Nornally I would agree but at this point, what bank can I bank with, what computer can I buy, what insurance company can I purchase policies from and so on that doesnt engage in outsourcing of jobs, paying CEOs over 40 times what the average workers make ? There is no longer the option for the consumer to buy most things from small business and buy things made here...so while I would love a consumer movement that would force companies to pay people more fairly, there really no alternative choices for consumers to move their dollars to. Also the 40times does not limit what the top people can make, it does limit them from the "freedom" to hire workers, get them to perform and make the company successful then the top person gives himself a huge payraise while he or she tells the workers to just be happy they have jobs!!
ha thats funny, somewhat sarcastic, but funny. I dont think that CEOs should get call them selves receiving a large pay raise if the wealth is distributed fairly, i think if they get a large payraise it should be placed towards feeding the hungry in areas such as somalia, or help fund research that solves real world problems.
I can agree that we should be using some of this excessive pay for better purposes like funding solutions to problems lile hunger and energy...that could be accomplished by higher taxes on those making millions and still not hurt them or discourage investment and growth. Also if I read your name right, maybe there should be some money for research for digestive disorders like excessive gas.(hehe)
I approve this message
Some might chose Jif..but I choose Skippy2 ..Thank You Skippy2!!!
Might as well give that extra money to me if you're going to give it up- im just as deserving as anyone else
Hey Pottsandahalf...You might well be as deserving as anyone else BUT the 40 times isnt about Giving anything away. It is simply a pledge I make in my business and one I think all Organizations should as well. It simply says no 1 individual shall be paid more than 40 times the average wages of all the employees in that organization so people will make different wages and there isnt a limit and the top person or people can still make more, up to 40 times more than the average wages so if you are working there and are contributing to the success of the company then you will most likely receive increases as the CEO seeks to increase his or her income while still maintaining the 40 times pledge, well that's if they would actually commit to it which we know they won't unless forced most likely! Either way, I am sure you deserve a raise!!
call me poor if you like, but i am WORTH more than all of the one percent combined.
I alone have the physics of advanced alien civilizations. I alone have warp drive in my back pocket. I alone have the assorted solutions all of them lined up in a row.
Compared to me, the "worth" of the one percent is negative. They are social parasites. They are "worth" exactly less than nothing.
See, it depends on HOW you value and WHAT you value.
I don't value your imaginary con scam money game. I do value intrinsic evolutionary knowledge.
Ultimately, the real worth of people like me is far more than the net worth of all of the mere money co nscam dumble down evil oligarchs combined.
They can't lead you to the stars. they can't solve your social and civil problems. they can only lead us all to doom and self destruction.
So in the end, your "worth" is based on your criteria to measure that worth. Criteria which you select, based on your evil attachment to greed.
My worth is not based on an imaginary con scam game, but upon the real services and solutions which i have to give humanity.
you are worth less than nothing to humanity so long as you imagine that worth is relative to mere money.
assuming we make it, history will record my worth as being a zillion times more than all of the oligarchy combined.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
call me poor if you like, but i am WORTH more than all of the one percent combined.
I alone have the physics of advanced alien civilizations. I alone have warp drive in my back pocket. I alone have the assorted solutions all of them lined up in a row.
Compared to me, the "worth" of the one percent is negative. They are social parasites. They are "worth" exactly less than nothing.
See, it depends on HOW you value and WHAT you value.
I don't value your imaginary con scam money game. I do value intrinsic evolutionary knowledge.
Ultimately, the real worth of people like me is far more than the net worth of all of the mere money co nscam dumble down evil oligarchs combined.
They can't lead you to the stars. they can't solve your social and civil problems. they can only lead us all to doom and self destruction.
So in the end, your "worth" is based on your criteria to measure that worth. Criteria which you select, based on your evil attachment to greed.
My worth is not based on an imaginary con scam game, but upon the real services and solutions which i have to give humanity.
you are worth less than nothing to humanity so long as you imagine that worth is relative to mere money.
assuming we make it, history will record my worth as being a zillion times more than all of the oligarchy combined.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
I agree that MONEY does not make worth in the human sense but we seem to measure success in terms of money and while I dont agree that we are doing the measurement correctly my premise is to start to address the inequality of wages in hope that we would begin to expect more from our corporations and politicians than just to deliver a stock price or reduce taxes.. we should all be measured on our deeds and not our beads!!
Without a doubt
Awesome Steve15... lets try to make this happen..tell everyone you know about this idea please and I suggest you check out: GetMoneyOut.Com
FreePatriotism.com
I will check it out gdarapper!!
It wont be televised
Hell yeah!!
I pledge no more than 35 times. Do I hear 30 times?
Nope, I think 40 times is fair. It is what the average CEO made in relation to the average worker in 1969. That is also when workers could afford a home and some decent cars even if they didnt have a degree. They had health care, both spouses didnt have to work and they had a pension so they could retire and live comfortably! Thats mostly gone now and they told us to blame the global economy but somehow during that same period, CEO pay went up to 400 times what the average workers got and the pensions and benefits dissappeared...hmmmm wonder where those went? The Chinese don't have them do they!? Nope they went to bigger bonuses to the top!!
that seems reasonable.
Thank you cristinasupes...now we just gotta get more people thinking this way and see if we can effect some change. Lets all reward businesses who pay and treat their workers and suppliers well and lets not shop at the places that pay workers as little as possible and beat their suppliers to the point where they have to make things in China in order to meet the stores demands...Hear Me Walmart?...yeah I didnt think so!!!
I have no problem with small profits. You want to reap the benefits of your hard work. And to be able to provide your employees with the same. Companies like Walmart frighten me. I've recently taken a careful look at the places I frequent. As a graduate student I like coffee shops and other eateries that allow me to study and offer free wifi. One such place near me is called Cosi, I know there are branches all over NY. I can stand by a place like that because they offer all employees medical benefits and fair wages. It is really such a simple thing. All a company needs to do is budget for it and everyone can be taken care of.
I agree cristinasupes...I really think small business and ethical larger businesses will be what helps keeps good jobs here in the states. Companies like WalMart, GM, and even Apple and I love Apple, arent really American companies at all. They are global and as such have access to labor pools and work standards far cheaper and lower than ours and of course they froth and thier corporate mouths to close plants here as fast as they can to move the jobs to the cheapest place they can. To some extent they have to do that because if they dont their competition will and then undercut them on price so until our country resolves to take the incentives away from large companies and stop them from shipping jobs overseas, they best thing we can do is "shop small"... small business that is!!
I agree that personal accountability could go a long way in ameliorating the most difficult issues we face. I simply wonder how a kindly business-owner like yourself could stand up against corporations who exploit their labor and devour every small-business owner. I don't know what sector you represent, however, amazon.com is a retail empire and they have dominated the entire industry. The kindly little mom and pop store I worked for as a high school student is out of business.
nichole- competing with large corporations is tough. our overall costs arent as high because while we strive to pay our workers more, we dont have the layers of management and and the perks and expense that comes with that like big conglomerates do. we are a service business and thats an advantage since we dont have to buy products at one price and sell them at another, that is where the big corps make it so hard for smaller companies to survive...they buy so much more and beat the suppliers down so much that they buy the goods so much cheaper that they can still accommodate their bloated executive pay packages and still sell the item for less than the local small businesses can..but go ask them for help..can you even find someone to help!?! of course not ! Shop Small..Small Business that is!! ThankYou for your post!
I live in Bethlehem, PA. and consumers are slowly learning to "shop small" -- especially when they buy food. amazon.com is attempting to be the most "customer-centric" corporation on earth, they will do anything to cut costs for the consumer. We must make consumers understand exactly what they are propagating when they seek out the lowest prices, and buy corporate. Education could go a long way in this regard, and I do believe we must demand that Internet retailers charge state sales tax, like every other storefront. That would be a start. Glad to hear that you are competitive while treating your workers well. I don't know if you read any of the recent articles concerning amazon.com and their labor practices. I have been at the center of it from the beginning and I must say it is incredibly exciting to see that consumers are boycotting amazon.com. Their 3Q earnings reports were dismal, yet, not once did they manage that the recent bad publicity concerning their labor practices may have had something to do with it. They are exploiting the bad economy every way they can. Sick.
Thank you Nichole for the information about Amazon. I do not buy from them although know plenty who do. I am going to find out more about what you have told me and make sure I let everyone know. Its shameful to see bookstores and librarys close while everyone simply flocks to Amazon...of course Amazon seems to sell everything so they hurt everyone with their practices. I am so glad that there are people like you who are mindful of what your purchase dollars support when you buy things and who you buy them from. You sound like an AWESOME person!!
Why put us down?
I agree...lets not put down...lets rise up together and with less disparity...no hand outs or guarantees just a promose that if you work hard you will be paid for that success and that those that you work for won't pay themselves more than 40 times what their average workers make so success is shared more equitably!!
But remember, if you do not make money for your shareholders they can sue you. It's all about more profit--it's never enough.
frankchurch1.. you are right about that...we need to work to change the purpose of companies so that it is not just to make the most money they can without regard for anything else!!
Personally, I would rather seek a solution instead being mired in the minutia.
Box meet fighter, fighter meet box, now fighter protect and fight for your tiny box.
Seek a larger box to fight for. Seek a solution to the problems instead of concentrating on the problem.
-- I am simply unimportant
I dont think you are unimportant...I think we all are important and hopefully we can change whats going on in our country. I am all for fighting for the box and for fighting for the bigger box but right now the ones with the bigger box have 400 pit bulls guarding it and I simply want to reduce that to 40 pit bulls so we all have a chance at the bigger box if we work hard enough!!
Methinks thou dost misunderstand me :-)
We are separated into our own tiny boxes.
Let's see, I am race, gender, age, marital status, education, income level, residential status, nationality, etc...
I am a human being, all other considerations are null and so I fight for all human beings and not just those others think are like me or that I "should" identify with. I do not put anything on the census form other than the number of human beings that reside at my residence.
My box, your box or our box, our fight and it is for all people.
Just how I roll :-)
-- I am simply unimportant
I understand now...I had a hunch you meant what you clairified in your last post but I wasnt sure so thats why I responded as I did. What I will say is that we as a species spend waaaay too much time being mean and unfair to each other..we have accepted the words "life isnt fair" yet we are life so why does it have to be not fair??...we can choose differently. I for one believe that we should strive to leave everyone we meet just a little better off than we found them..even if that means giving a simple compliment or cracking a joke to they laugh...lets make fair something we strive for as opposed to against...so I am simply unimportant right with you!!
"you will have to take your employees up with you"..... really? so if some careless idiot didn't prepare himself well in life to have marketable skills, my success should be restricted based on their poor decisions? Receiving handouts has become a life-style and that's the problem, not the solution.
yes, wall street has got some very big handouts. our success has been severely restricted because of their carelessness.
If you have non performers then get rid of them...there is nothing in my proposal that says you can't make your own hiring or firing decision. In fact if CEO pay is linked to what workers make then don't you think CEOs will make damn sure they don't have any slackers since everyone on average will need to be paid more in order for the CEO to be paid more. This is a win x 3....the company wins the employees win and the CEOS win as well
You're not dropping enough zeros.
Try: 4
...No, 2
I think we need to allow the gap to be 40 times because that does give people something to aspire to yet still insures we dont have what we have now which is fewer and fewer people having more and more of the pie!
To be honest, provided the people at the bottom are paid enough to lead decent lives without shame, I almost don't care... Almost.
Part of the problem is that corporations are achieving insane profits at a direct cost to the environment and to the worker alike.
Thank You for your post and I am in agreement with you. I just want to see some sort of mechanism where everyone benefits in the success they help achieve and right now, you are absolutely right that large companies are doing well at the expensive of our planet and US!!!
Glad to be of service
I am, honestly, in favor of a maximum income cap. The only problem is that it is a very, very tough sell to a lot of people in this country. The argument of "then what incentive do they have to succeed in life" comes to mind. Still, I would call being worth more than the next 40 people a lot of incentive, but that is my opinion, not the majorities...
Thank you for your kind reply...I dont want to cap income for anyone...I seek to reduce the disparity. I believe that if a CEO has made a success of a company then most likely that success had others in that company that contributed to it. What we have now is increased productivity from our workforce and yet they are not receiving any additional compensation and instead are told they are lucky to have jobs all while CEO pay has moved from 40 times to 400 times what the average worker makes. Hopefully this OWS movement is the beginning of a major change to take our country back to the one where we had a thriving middle class!!
That is the hope of this movement I think. If only we can figure out a way to do it.
I hope it is something that the movement embraces! I think everyone including the top 1% is better off in the long run is more people share in the wealth this nation has. No handouts but equity for work that is being done...No more having people dedicate themselves to a job only to be told that the plant is closing because we are shipping the jobs to China so we can turn more profits. Once the the Middle Class is completely destroyed where who is gonna buy all this crap we sent to China to make??
Very revealing how you consider your "worth" to be numbers on a computer screen. Do you have the freshest food, purest water, a living environment and healthiest relationships? http://occupywallst.org/forum/family-food-gardens-this-is-the-solution/
OH My Gosh FamilyFoodGardens...I am only trying to address one aspect which is the growing disparity of wealth in our country... read my post. Of course we have to strive for better fresher safer foods, better relationships and a clean environment!! Having a fairer workplace is a start now isnt it!?!
If you are truly a business owner I appreciate your sentiment. The point is not the specific number, it's the obscenity of the current average disparity. Passing a law enshrining a specific number is problematic because it will inevitably lead to negative unintended consequences and evasions of the law. This is a social and ethical problem more than a strictly legal one. We have to want to change as a society, no new system or draconian law will do it for us.
I agree that a law is not the best answer. Ideally we would as a society refuse to accept a system where such disparities exist..maybe something as simple as asking companies and people to voluntarily agree to a standard and then have the market reward those companies that adhere to that standard by giving them increased business...unfortunately WalMart seems to be the standard we are moving to..that and fast food so repeat after me...would you like fries with that sir? nice job..you are hired!!!
You sound like a leftist asshole. You are no CEO or business owner.
Government has NO RIGHT restricting what anyone can earn. That means CEO's or anyone.
You want to use governmental force to restrict what people can earn.
You are a communist asshole.
IndyGuy...There is NO restriction on what I can earn in the company own and the idea of limiting what I take to a max of 40 times what I pay my employees on average does not limit how much I can make. Yes I own a company and I would NOT accept any cap on what I can earn no no no! I am simply putting forth the notion that no one person in any organization is worth 400 times what the rest of the people in that organization is worth. Too often we see successful companies giving no increases pr very small ones when the CEO is getting increases of 30 % and oursourcing jobs while hes at it. So you can spit vile names and labels at me which convinces me that you are no business owner since you conduct yourself in such a manner but in my scenerio, more people get paid better so call it what you like but fairer is better everytime even if it means you lose!
You are full of shit. You clearly state that 40 times the earnings of the average worker should be enshrined in law for corporate CEO's.
You want to use the force of government to restrict earnings.
Government has no business doing any such thing. That is a restriction on freedom and liberty.
Maybe you should take your imaginary business to North Korea or Cuba. Those countries seem more to your liking.
Please be courteous when critiquing the ideas of another individual. The point you make gets lost in your rudeness and you do bring up a good point. A mandate concerning employee pay may be overstepping the government's bounds. Perhaps a more appropriate method would be to provide tax incentives to companies that pay their employees fairly.
IndyGuy, buzz off.
Go to hell.
You are an un-American asshole.
Primarily an asshole. Communist prick.
now this is silly, you are just invoking uselessness into a good discussion
oooh such hostility either you dont want to get paid more or you like the exploiting of workers....not nice IndyGuy...I even like Indy racing too...interesting how they have restrictions making basically all the cars perform the same way...hmm sounds like communism to me..well at least theres only one winner which is how you like it I am sure!!
Well ... the "Indy" in the name has nothing to do with racing.
I do however like winners, and the losers at these protests are the farthest thing from winners.
OH I get it..."Indy" is for Independent...which in your case means Republican..because its ok to have free markets and small government as long as gays cant marry, women dont have choice and the we make sure those damn poor people pay taxes!!! Aaannnnnnttt..Thanks for Playing!!
lol.
You're a clown who's being herded by Faux News.
Hey Salaam86 To hear "IndyGuy" talk you'd think he was some high roller. How much you want to bet he's not? v
You're a communist clown who's being herded by MSNBC News.
MSNBC is owned by the 1%. Please try again.
Yeah sure.
MSNBC is 24/7 all OWS. Every show on that network talks about nothing other than OWS. All favorable and pro-OWS.
One of it's hosts, Dylan Ratigan was outed as being involved and helping the organizers of the movement.
EHHHHH. Wrongo!
MSNBC is owned by the 1%. What news they choose to cover doesn't mean squat.
Again, you're being herded by Faux News like the good little sheeple you are.
And the average employee invested what to start the business and pay what toward liability insurance? Just as a start.
They did not invest other than to come to work, work hard and take maybe less than they could have gotten elsewhere ..regardless, they arent required to invest capital or take as big a risk as I do and thats why I will take 40 times more than the average wage and when I sell the company I will take all or most of what I get for it and I will have the good knowledge that I paid people fairly and maybe more than they needed to be paid but it wasnt about getting away with paying as little as possible so I could grab for myself.
Careful how you assume ebitda (earnings before interests taxes depreciation and amortization) at 40x's geez.....MBA via GED? Please, you know where I'm going.
Joyce, people in the company can have all different wages so yes a GEDer may not get what an MBAer gets and so on. On the EBITDA..yes we will have to establish what is counted as income for the CEO...if profits are invested back into the company then that wouldnt be considered income to the CEO even though it potentially builds the value of the company in a sale. We should collaborate and see how we could make this simple idea work and apply to various situations and see if we can get traction on it...at least a movement so that people support companies that subscribe to this idea and do business with those companies which would encourage others to do likewise! Thank You for your thoughtful reply!
CEO's don't necessarily have degrees. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are both college drop outs, for example.
Besides, corporations owe their success to the high education standards of the U.S. People insult the public school system all the time, but the truth is, that even a C average student is a thousand times smarter than some starving peasant in Africa.
Corporations owe it to the rest of America, to take some frickin' responsibility for a change. They didn't earn everything they have on their own. They did it with societies help.
You also might try to be a bit more careful. People often take jobs with start up company and take large cuts in pay, work longer hours and are stretched thinner to make the company viable and to help the company get off the ground.
Often this work is rewarded with stock options and if the company goes public they can make a lot of money.
You can bicker or try to fix what ails the country.
-- I am simply unimportant
Screw being an employee..
https://www.facebook.com/pages/San-Francisco-Drivers/279959605349056
Take control with my app!
When you go into the voting booth do you vote 400 times?
Unfortionately I do not but the Koch brothers vote millions of times and so do Wall Street Bankers and large corporations...its called voting with dollars....kind of like Bowling for Dollars but in this case the dollars bowl over the politicians and they do whatever the dollars say to do!!
i vote with my feet on the street
Excellent post. And your point strikes at the heart of our problems. Income inequality has created the current crises. And it can be achieved through sane tax policy.
Thank You HitGirl...You are a hit with me!! Have an AWESOME DAY!!
I agree. That's kind of you to take that upon yourself. I believe if the people who had even more wealth and power than you had that attitude, the world would not be in the shape it is in.
Thank You yasmine001... I am a small business owner with BIG asperations and I want those around me to make more money and be better off than they would have had they not met me or joined pur company. Isnt that what we should be trying to do...leave everyone a little better than we found them...even if its just being nice to your waitress...If I can build our company, and I can, then those around me should share..yeah I will get the bigger slice and the dollars if and when I sell but I couldnt face my employees nor do I thinks its good for the business if I pay peanuts while I get steak and prime rib!!
Of course. You hit it RIGHT on the head of the nail. By you looking out for those around you and wanting those people to do better in their life as well, it's like you're giving that kind of compassion and growth to yourself as well. Right on. :)
many have suggested an income cap in this forum
My thought is not to cap income but to limit the disparity. I chose 40 times because that is what the average CEO made in comparison to the average worker back in 1969.. you know back when medical benefits were fully paid for by the company, pension plans were funded and people reitred after 25 or 30 years with good income and benes, we had a thriving middle class and America led the world in production, health care, space, standard of living virtually everything. So no I dont want to cap what some one can make, but I do want to say, if you run a company and think you deserve 20million, you can have it as long as the rest of the employees in that company have an average wage of no more that 40 times less than what any one invididual takes.
understood
I agree completely with the premise of your post, although your title makes you sound like a troll if people don't catch onto your satire.
Thank You for agreeing and responding. You are right about the troll thing...but I admit to wanting to grab some attention to my idea that I really believe in. Have an AWESOME DAY!!
You too, man! Incidentally, you might want to check this out: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=184 I tried to post it directly to here but it's too long.
Will do...Thanks again!!!
are you speaking about median, mean or mode?
Initially, when I came up with the idea I was thinking it would just be the simple average...of course it would be possible in a smaller organization to really bring that number up by paying a few execs very high dollars while still paying everyone else much much less so maybe its should be a median predominent wage figure that we use to calculate the 40 times number on to determine top pay at that average wage.
Then that is a workable solution. The only reason i asked is because the simple average is what's used to tally the average income of Americans, which is deceptive.
You are right JesseHeffran...now we just need somehow to make thiis part of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Thank You for your kind reply and good questions! Have an AWESOME DAY!!!
Who the hell cares how much you are worth?
You are missing my point...what I am saying is that I am not worth 400 times more than the people who work for me nor should I be allowed to take that kind lf compensation in comparison. No CEO deserves to make 400 times the average wages in the company he or she runs, 40 times maybe, like is was in 1969 when we still had a middle class.
There is always going to be a CEO that is greedy and want the 400+ salary. If you own the business it would make sence to grow the company faster and take less pay. If the employees feel respect of fair pay they will work hard to keep it. The result is greater value of completed work. That will result in greater value of the company. So it pays more to take less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-3hZsXrxaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
George Carlin is the most Important Comedian and Social Commentator of our time!!
Who will determine how much a person is paid at his job?
Wages will be determined in much the same way they are now...its just that the top people would be limited to 40 times what the average workers make in that company...the top people can still earn unlimited income, they just will not be able to do it while paying the rest of the people in the company as little as possible.
And small business?
Most small business owners arent able to get even close to taking 40 times what there average workers make but lets just say there were companies of 5 or 10 people and that company made 8 million dollars and the Owner wanted to take a large sum out...they can but not more than 40 times what the average wage is in the company so in theory there would be 10 people getting a pretty good bonus too and shouldnt they if they worked at that company, contributed to its success and it made 8 mil... I sure think so!! Have an AWESOME Day!!
I see. And who or what will determine and enforce these controlled wages?
Well MVSN of course that would be the challenge because it seems that almost everything has potential for corruption and certainly there will be those who attempt to game the system just like people cheat on their taxes, violate pollution laws, labor laws, steal from their employers, watch kiddie porn, take illegal drugs(so what) and so on..but for the most part this is a simple premise and program which should be fairly easy to enforce simply by tax returns and financial statements. Of course I know some will cheat and get away with it and they have to live with themselves but they could find themselves having a hard time keeping employees because why work for a company that wont pay its employees fairly in accordance to the 40 times ethic !?!
IS 40x justified? Why not 2x at most?
40 times is what the Average CEO made back in 1969.. while there were plenty of issues in America back then..the eroding middle class wasnt one of them and we led the world in living standards so thats why I chose that number. I do believe that there has to be a bigger gap than 2 times so that people are motivated to work harder and are rewarded for it.
Yes, let's go back to a time when things were really fucked up instead of totally fucked up to draw some baseline..
Shit let's go back to pre-civil war days and let's talk about how hard work gets rewarded.
Ha ha ..
Well if we did, we wouldnt have to worry about pensions or social security because the average life expectancy was about 40!! Of course there seem to be plenty on rightwing that seem to want to go back to those times...problem is most of those people are way over that age and they want you to "keep your government hands off my medicare!".hehehehe!!!
Because the head of a company is held in much higher esteem and holds more responsibility. Say he makes a decision and the company goes under. Who's blamed?
That question is playing out right now for John Corzine.
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While I agree that there should be less disparity not more, I chose 40 Times because in 1969 thats what the average was andnit seemed like we had a solid middle class back then, and America led the world in health care, education, technology and manufacturing all while we didn' t have crushing debt and the top one percent paid higher taxes.
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Hmmmm Lets see, Led Zeppelin I and II came out that year..Working people had pensions, health benefits, the 1969 Corvette was pretty nice, most households only had to have 1 person work in order for them all to live the American dream so yeah I think there is plenty of positives about that time..ok not everything was perfect because yes we had a war that our government lied us into... oh wait a minute..we got one of them now too and of course there wasnt equality and there was plenty of racism too...uh oh looks like a lot of that stuff is still around too, so at least in 1969 the middle class seemed to do better than it does now!
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just pond scum floating on the forum tonight
if you are pond scum shouldnt you be in a pond instead of floating on the forum?
Troll!
A Troll that promises to only pay myself no more than 40 times the average wages in the company I own and conTroll !!
Do you operate as a Sole Proprietorship or an S-Corp?
Hi HappyBanker...being that this is a public forum I do not feel it is appropriate for me reveal any specifics about my business especially because there are others in my business and associated with it(clients and vendors etc..) that may not share my views. So, while I am probably being overly cautious..I cant answer the question, although I am curious why you ask. Anyway, THANK YOU for reading my post!!!
Nice try. You know exactly why I ask.
True I do know why you ask...because of the nice tax advantages owners get because only a portion of their income comes from payroll taxed wages and the rest is distributions taxed at the capital gains rate!?! Another reason that we should be limiting total take to 40 times what the average wages are!
You, my friend, are a FRAUD. Let me say it again FRAUD. You failed a couple of easy questions and have just been outed by a Tax Professional.
First of happybanker, it is fraudulent of you to call me friend, we clearly are not friends. Secondly, you have no proof to call me a fraud because you do not know me or my business. What I can tell you as a business owner and as someone who reported to various owners of companies I worked for..many business owners do not know taxes and corporate structures like they should, which is why they pay "tax professionals" to do that work for them..That being said, I also have discovered that many "tax professionals" do not understand business and corporate structure as they should, so lets stop the name calling and agree to disagree. Have an Awesome day though as I do appreciate you taking time to comment even if we disagree and you choose name calling instead of debate.
In my work history the fairest arrangements to me were always those where straight or partial commission in exchange for my sales efforts of reasonably in demand products or services was a component and, with the exception of commission sales arrangements I completely agree with Vettezeppelin, the vast majority of workers are only earning around $25K to $40K if they are of low to moderate skill (ie: able to use typical office software and conduct a business related function on behalf of an employer) and these wages would see a more fair level of compensation relative to local costs of living sans the need for public or private assistance. If there wasn't the need to 'bait' the best CEO's with hyper-inflated compensation packages in the interest of profits whether or not the company is private or publicly traded on NYSE or any other stock exchange maybe some sanity to the employer/employee relationship would return.
I would like to put out there that maybe if more employers offered some sort of individual, group and or company wide 'commission bonus' vs. having the bulk go to executives then maybe it would make a bigger difference to morale and 'the bottom line' in the long run. Ever hear of the Japanese concept of 'Hara?' Executives/CEO's/Employers, look it up! Employees work mostly so they and their families can live decently and not in a cockroach and vermin infested hovel even if your low pay job is something they are doing for 3 to 6 months to stay 'off the dole' while they find a position they truly qualify for!
I wonder why more businesses especially big box retailers (which harbor the lowest skilled and lowest paid) don't offer some sort of commission structure and change the CEO pay structure on a trial run for 3 to 5 years? Perhaps they'd be more than pleasantly surprised by the changes due to a sense of 'generous compensatory fairness' creating motivation and greater rates of morale!
In my work history as an example of why I think this way, the highest percent commission early on was 80% on a summer job (mentioned by a friend) doing door to door retail sales and since this was sales of a tangible product with after market services in 1992 with marketing support in the form of pre-qualified leads from the employer I was more than happy to earn more using less time during my day that could be used for studying and tending to my then 1 bedroom apartment in the San Francisco East Bay Area! At that time I was able to earn slightly more 3 to 4 days per week for 2 to 5 hours per day vs. what a friend made working in a call center full time 40 hours per week and budget enough so that I had 'emergency money' and cash left over to splurge now and then on myself and others.
After this experience I was spoiled by sales jobs since self study along with any training provided over time and my own stubborn persistence/daring ensured my consistency in landing among the top monthly sales groups. It also led to me dropping out of the public college I originally planned to use for 2 years before transferring to the UC system. But why did I need college unless I wanted to pursue some profession in the sciences which more strongly held my interest prior to the sales job and those to follow!? While it's true in sales it's 'chicken one week and feathers the next' I found out in my young work life (late teens to 20's) there's nothing I truly HATE more than having to force myself to arrive at an office/call center at the same exact time each morning or graveyard shift to do the same boring thing many women do (since it seems more gals than guys have the tolerance for it) without a chance at working harder or more efficiently at it to increase my income. With sales, at least prior to 2006 I worked hard and played harder (aviation, SCUBA, travel!)
Now though, as a veteran of the real estate and mortgage brokerage industries (my choice to enter at the suggestion of friends), risk and loss through partnering with friends in a now amicably disbanded partnership and the last of 2 mortgage and real estate companies closing in 2008 the 'burn through' of savings squirreled away for my own plans for marketing and a more independent position as completely self employed is seriously 'on hold.'
How to begin again? Well, for starters if Vettezeppelin or any other business owner has a product/service or combination that is enough in demand to need a representative in the Northern Nevada/N. California areas and your profitability is such that you can provide geodemographically or credit pre-qualified leads for starters I am available for a beginning/starter compensation package of $50K draw against commission for the first 2 years (this will allow me to build a healthy referral and marketing base independent of the leads you provide) Then, by the 3rd year I should be earning 1.5 to 3 times what the draw against commission is and go to a 60% or greater straight commission structure!
Thanks for taking the time to read this far and thank you Vettezeppelin for making your pledge!
Thank You EDC...I am confident you will rebuild and find business for whatever company you work for and that you will get to have the dream you seek. I agree with you on sales being a job where you really see the results of your efforts in actual dollars coming onto your bottomline. I agree that business should move more towards having all employees on a pay package where they do well when the company does well and they take steps back when the company does...this keeps everyone focused on the same things..moving the company forward...it also eliminates the yearly pittence companies hand out as raises if they even do that, because employees make more when the company does so thats how they get increases. We have a system like that in place in our company and I rarely have employees complaining about how much they make because they know how to make more...help build the business. simple !! Thank you again for your well thought out post. Good luck I am sure you will find the spot you are looking for!!!
If you are hiring, I am looking.