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Forum Post: Bill Moyers Essay: On the Sabotage of Democracy

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 7, 2013, 2:27 a.m. EST by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR
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Bill Moyers Essay: On the Sabotage of Democracy

October 4, 2013

This week’s government shutdown has consequences for all of us, costing an estimated $300 million each day ( http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-01/shutdown-would-cost-u-s-economy-300-million-a-day-ihs-says.html ) that the government is closed for business. Many Americans have voiced their frustrations with the fallout from the shutdown on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter using the hash tag #DearCongress ( https://twitter.com/search?q=%23DearCongress&src=typd ). Here, Bill Moyers shares his own thoughts on the shutdown, and the resulting sabotage of democracy.

“When the president refused to buckle to this extortion, they threw their tantrum,” Bill says. “Like the die-hards of the racist South a century and a half ago, who would destroy the union before giving up their slaves, so would these people burn down the place, sink the ship.” He goes on to tell us where the “reckless ambition” of the Republicans could lead us.

http://billmoyers.com/segment/bill-moyers-essay-shutdown-showdown/

[A war is raging on a people who think it was something they ate, the latest flu, the neighbor's dog, welfare queens, pan handler millionaires, tax & spend liberals, any one or thing in eye shot or on TV ~ while out of sight, behind mansion & boardroom walls, 1% of 1% Kings send orders to their GOP generals: "Keep them fighting each other! Make them hate their own government! Make sure the redistribution of wealth never stops flowing to us!"]

Reform Turns Real

By PAUL KRUGMAN | Published: October 3, 2013

At this point, the crisis in American governance has taken on a life of its own. Some Republicans are now saying openly that they want concessions in return for reopening the government and avoiding default, not because they have any specific policy goals in mind, but simply because they don’t want to feel “disrespected.” And no endgame is in sight. [Free passage to Somalia!] CONTINUED: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/04/opinion/krugman-reform-turns-real.html?_r=0

Rodeo GOP-bags lasso Guvmint with their sadistic Shutdown now sob having caught their necks in the noose: Twist Slowly In The Wind.

125 Comments

125 Comments


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[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 1 year ago
  • Dysfunctional doesn't come near enough to describing our Congress.

  • The government shutdown has taken at least $24 billion out of the United States economy, according to the financial ratings agency Standard & Poor's

  • So what did this Washington DC/Heritage Foundation Circus accomplish?

• They agreed to reopen government and fund it -- but only through 15 January 2014! How's local business and Wall Street going to deal with that uncertainty?

• They agreed to push the debt ceiling deadline back! But only to 7 February 2014 (but NOT abolish "emergency measures" the Treasury could use to protect against default past that date).

• They agreed to appoint members of a budget conference committee to join the House in trying to pass a budget and end the cycle of standoffs.

  • They agreed to institute an anti-fraud provision in Obamacare requiring government to confirm financial need of the recipients of health subsidies.

  • How is Congress going to find the time, in between fund raising and Congressional vacations, etc?

  • Do you know wow many weeks of paid vacation Congress takes? Every Year? 2013 is still in flux, but  here is the 2010 vacation schedule for the House of Representatives:

January 1st-January 12:  1 1/2 weeks February 15th-February 19th: 1 week March 29th-April 12th:  2 weeks May 31st-June 4th: 1 week July 5th-July 9th: 1 week August 9th-Sept 12th:  5 weeks. *** October 11th-December 31st: 12 weeks.

  • Folks, we are at the height of the worst recession and soon to be depression in 75 years!

  • Yet Congress granted themselves 23 1/2 weeks of vacation. 

  • That is almost one-half a year off -- paid -- every year. Not a bad job.

  • Problem is, now with federal budgets and debt ceilings extended for a dozen weeks at a time, the ONLY thing Congress will have time for is dealing with these Heritage Foundation & Koch Brothers funded artificial crises.

  • No time for Congress to deal with the thousands of pressing problems, foreign and domestic.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

2010 Never EVER Again!!

Get out the Turnout 2014!!!

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Gangsters have got to be respected haven't you seen any mob movies?

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

RICO laws!!!

Come on people!!!!!

They take out the Congress, We REMEMBER in NOV. 2014

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Time for 'The Banksters' to ''sleep with the fishes'' !!! Have u heard of Karen Hudes ?!! This is important !

If you can access 'RT' online or on cable (and I'd be very interested IF you can) then see their show ''Sophie & Co'' which has Karen Hudes on today - {7th Oct.'13} & she is speaking with an insiders knowledge on a myriad of intricate, interconnected and interesting matters which are extremely pertinent to the state of affairs we are all suffering from. I can't recommend this highly enough.

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

If you can't see the difference NOW, you are blinded. And should not be trusted. Recognized as a GOP, False Flag, Troll!!

If you are truly for socialism, then you should be for eliminating the CULT who is against everything that isn't Corporate Welfare &Socialism, the GOP, RepubliCon Cult. But you're not!

You're against the Dems!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Being against ''the Dems'' does NOT make me 'for' the fkn GOP - you fkn gimp !!! You and your zero-sum-game, duopoly-loving buddies are a disgrace to OWS' fundamental values !! I've had it up to here <puts back of hand to chin> with 'conservative liberals' like you, so fk off now & come call me a troll on my threads and watch me chew you up good and proper - you imagination deprived, conservative loon !

See where Neoliberal Austerity at home and Neocon Empire abroad is getting us all, you fukng gimp ?!!

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

you may or may not "like" the GOP that doesn't matter what does matter is you help keep them in power, I don't think they care if you like them as long as you keep attacking their enemies and keeping them in power, why you work so hard to keep the GOP in business is beyond me, I think you're just very confused I don't think your a troll like HCHC he is just a TEA Party R.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Insulting folk you don't agree with, is probably as pointless as it is to be expected (and yep, mea culpa too) but IF you think that I ''may 'like' the GOP'', then you simply have not been paying attention and if you think 'hc' is a Tea Bagger Troll when he is actually so vociferously pro-99% then you're equally as mistaken, imo. Anyway only replying here really to slide this your way, fyi :

You are probably one of many millions of loyal and well meaning Dem voters but your Party Pols and Party Machine-On-The-Hill has been bought, co-opted and corrupted by 0.01% Parasite Class and the Venal Banksters & Corporate Oligarchs. Not seeing or accepting this is to de facto condone the status quo as it is in The U$A and is actually antithetical to OWS, I'd suggest.

Re. ''I don't think they care if you like them as long as you keep attacking their enemies and keeping them in power'' - last time I looked The POTUS was a Dem but I don't blame you for any confusion ;-)

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''The proliferation of corporate-funded “Super PACs” (a result of the 2010 Supreme Court decision, Citizens United, which allows corporations unlimited funding of political campaigns) is only the most recent example of corruption within the U.S. electoral system. Elections have long been rigged in favor of the two corporate parties.

''For third parties to have any real chance of adequate representation, major, systemic reforms are necessary. These include breaking up media monopolies, having purely publicly funded campaigns, instituting PR voting systems, adding a binding “none of the above” option on all ballots, establishing universal voter registration, and much more. Such reforms would weaken if not destroy the two-party duopoly, and will therefore be strongly resisted by current Republicrats and the powerful interests that back them.

''Only a mass movement of education, protest and civil disobedience that puts tremendous outside pressure upon the corporate state will be capable of bringing about such a fundamental transformation of the electoral system.'' My paragraphs for emphasis but quoted from :

You are probably one of many millions of loyal and well meaning Dem voters but your Party Pols and Party Machine-On-The-Hill has been bought, co-opted and corrupted by 0.01% Parasite Class and the Venal Banksters & Corporate Oligarchs. Not seeing or accepting this is to de facto condone the status quo as it is right now in The U$A and this is actually antithetical to OWS core values, I'd suggest.

Effective political activity and the mobilisation of a 99% 'Movement of The Masses' will have to take on a perspective longer than one, two or even three election cycles. A Labour based 3rd Party and True 99% Independents need to seriously challenge the duopoly because Ds have been pulled so hard to the right by the Rs, as to be unrecognisable to The 99%. These days FDR would be considered a raving pinko !!!

You don't get a revolution let alone watershed changes - by sticking with the status quo. OWS is one of the important and very necessary starts of a new paradigm for us all ... either that or it's a dark future of Fascism without opposition. We all should listen to this 1934 audio-file from Huey Long - from a lifetime ago : http://www.knowla.org/audio-file/268/ for an inspiring and eye opening message from 80 years ago.

Your link was long, dense and powerful but to accept your and frf's argument is to somehow regard The Corporate and Bankster Funded, Co-opted, Corrupted and Controlled Democrat Party and its Politicians On-The-Hill as saviours of The US 99% !!! This is O.W.S.!! So do you get just how absurd that sounds ?!

Finally, I'm going to cross link here to a recent comment by 'elf' on another thread & two other links fyi :

per aspera ad astra ...

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The Tea Party was seeded by Koch money AND believe it or not - ideas taken from The Ruckus Society ( http://www.ruckus.org/ ) so I get what you say more than you realise. I'm NOT advocating removal from ''the political process'' !!! Very far from it & quite the opposite - BUT I do see ''political process'' as much, Much, MUCH bigger than voting for the 'Kissy Sell-Out' ; Bought & Paid For Before they even fkn sell us out - Democrap and Repugnant Pols !! What does it really actually say to us all, that the likes of Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney were gerrymandered and purged from today's Democratic Party, ffs ?!

You replied really quickly so unlike me looking at your Huff-Po link, I'm not at all sure that you looked at any of my links above but ... now this time it's your turn to 'pay attention' :

  • ''Effective political activity and the mobilisation of a 99% 'Movement of The Masses' will have to take on a perspective longer than one, two or even three election cycles. A Labour based 3rd Party and True 99% Independents need to seriously challenge the duopoly because Ds have been pulled so hard to the right by the Rs, as to be unrecognisable to The 99%. These days FDR would be considered a raving pinko !!!''

IF I had to vote in US (S)Elections, than in the absence of any real left, liberal, progressive 3rd Party or Independents, then I too would have to hold my nose & vote Dem while channelling Kucinich, McKinney, Sanders, Nader & FDR - BUT it would be like wiping my arse after taking a dump .... not a nice subject for pleasant, after dinner conversation but WTF would be the mthrfkng option ?!!! You Dig ?!! Now Snap TF Out Of The Binary Thinking ZD & start taking a longer view, dude ! Hey, look {nearly, lol} No Links ;-)

veritas vos liberabit ...

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[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"The unofficial history of America, which continues to be written, is not a story of rugged individualism and heroic personal sacrifice in the pursuit of a dream. It is a story of democracy derailed, of a revolutionary spirit suppressed, and of a once-proud people reduced to servitude." from :

''People are seeing that the Democratic Party is behind the neo-liberal economic agenda. Democrats are joining the GOP to privatize and log national forests and cut education funding. And the husband of Senator Feinstein is selling our commons, in this case publicly-owned Post Office buildings, to his friends cheap in order to line his family’s pockets with our commonwealth.

''On the bright side, as people speak-up, mobilize and take action not only is there a growing movement but the power structure is being divided. Divisions are occurring in the Democratic Party where some are being pulled away from Obama’s pro-Wall Street, market-based policies that undermine the social infrastructure.'' from :

The Fkn Repugnants are beyond the pale & Democraps are a Huge fkn fail !!! This is OWS where we - very reasonably, demand the impossible and try to think the unthinkable !! Just voting for more of the same and expecting something different is optimistic wishful thinking in the extreme or delusional and self-defeating at worst & That's Why We Occupy, right ?!

respice, adspice, prospice ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Re. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ - you could have easily found that out yourself but allow me to spoon feed you just this once :

Once in a blue moon he may write an article himself but mostly it is run as a 'Clearing House for Information' and ''News you won't find on CNN or Fox News'' and he runs it ''Not For Profit (but) For Global Justice & btw, here's one for u : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36473.htm & : "Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people" (John Adams - Second President - 1797 - 1801).

fiat lux ...

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Probably takes one to know one but if you're gonna melt down and lose the plot and start swearing and talking about guns, shooting and similar shit now, then I'll go do much more rewarding things but I'll still leave this for you, if you'll dare to read it : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36473.htm ~(~

temet nosce ...

[EDIT : Re.your ''And people like you strengthen the hand of these conservative scum. I don't like that.'' - so I could reply : 'People like you are only 'Not As Conservative' as the other scum ! & I don't like that' !!]

verum ex absurdo ...

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Well that's an awesome link !!! Thanx & a HUGE recommendation @ all !! Solidarity bw ! + I quote :

''Americans today are living in a truly terrifying, deceptive reality where six enormous corporations control every aspect of our media.

''Whether it’s news we read on the internet, listen to on the radio, or see on t.v., the grim truth of the matter is that everything we see, hear and read is being carefully controlled by these six corporations that ensure we’re only hearing, reading, or watching the “truth” as they fashion it :

  • Comcast

  • NewsCorp

  • Disney

  • Viacom

  • Time Warner

  • CBS

''Back in 1983, media was controlled by more than 50 different companies. The times have changed.''

Finally, fyi : http://www.buzzflash.com/reviews/05/rev05015.html re. the book : ''News Incorporated'' ~

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21328) 1 year ago

This is what capitalism, rigged to benefit the corporations, renders to the people. Amazing and pathetic.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Monopolistic, Totalitarian Crapitalism is what we actually have these days & thus please consider :

''I didn't do any research at all on Smith. I just read him. There's no research. Just read it. He's pre-capitalist, a figure of the Enlightenment. What we would call capitalism he despised. People read snippets of Adam Smith, the few phrases they teach in school. Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is. But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. And therefore in any civilized society the government is going to have to take some measures to prevent division of labor from proceeding to its limits.

''He did give an argument for markets, but the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty, markets will lead to perfect equality. That's the argument for them, because he thought that equality of condition (not just opportunity) is what you should be aiming at. It goes on and on. He went on to give a devastating critique of what we would call North-South policies. He was talking about England and India. He bitterly condemned the British experiments they were carrying out which were devastating India.'' + :

fiat lux ...

[-] -1 points by vagabondblues (18) from Oyster Bay, NY 1 year ago

If you want the further retrogression of the 99%'s lot in life, then vote for candidates in either of the two parties.

The last six years have proven that, haven't they?

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[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

"...a GOP cunt..."?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Yep, you might as well be ! & ?

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

shadez you got your head so far up you ass you can't smell anything but your own crap just like these fire bombers you so often quote, you post essays from writers for the Guardian a paper published in a place where the conservatives think single payer health care is so logical to suggest anything else is just insane, the references to our situation is very different we are fighting off Monarchy here, here, this shit be real.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

It's a Highly Militarised Corporate Bankster Oligarchy Security State (alas, 'Fascism' in all but name) 'frf' and so it is easily arguable that it's much worse than mere ''Monarchy'' and stop being so abrasive and fractious please. I've been tagged teamed by you, Winston & Zen on this thread but have persisted to engage with you Dem loyalists and only got slappy with Winston, when he lost the plot and became overly obnoxious but I've bumped this forum-post enough already don't you think ?

Furthermore, in order to back up both your and my concerns and preoccupations, I append for further leisurely but deeper consideration, the following very recent and topically relevant items :

At some point 'frf' you will have to admit to yourself - The Democrap-Party-On-The-Hill's culpability in the current situation and 'The Kissy Sell Out' that Obomber is but you need not admit that to me. I am NOT here to win or lose arguments and collect debating points - I'm here mainly for 'The Information Function' although can't also help getting drawn into bish-bash-boshes sometimes 'cause I'm a natural born, weak willed, human, man-child too. Repugnants are beyond the pale but Obummer sold us all out - 'for real' :-(

I love America & some Americans but I fear you too. That is why I am here. I can do insulting, fractious and toilet-mouthed furious if need be - as you well know but am trying to avoid that as much as possible these days, so please pat the dog for me and take it for a walk after you've looked at my links maybe :-)

pax ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" you are a great friend of the GOP at some point you will have to admit that.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Oh I don't know about all that, Monarchy can be pretty bad, unless you don't waiting your turn on your wedding night.

You work to restore the King as you help the GOP stay alive in these trying times.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Again with the 'zero sum thinking' and inability to see past one election cycle, sadly. As you you didn't open any of the excellent links above, so will you probably not open the following by Prof. R.D.Wolff, but I'll append it anyway for the standing record here because of it's historical perspective :

Go on 'frf', give it a try, you might like it and it could help you towards desisting talking shit at me again !

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

While you throw around catch phrases like "zero sum game" smelling your own shit and trying to convince everyone it smells so good, the house is burning down and you do nothing to stop it. The time is at hand DO Something! Kill the GOP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnAvTTaJjM

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Very cool tune & long time no hear so despite your incorrigible attempts to be offensive, you do redeem yourself and snatch a li'l bonhomie where indifference and disdain maybe would otherwise have resulted.

''Kill The GOP'' certainly may have it's attractions but voting for those corporate controlled, Bankster buddies, The 'Democrap-Party-Pols-On-The-Hill' who have facilitated The 'Austerity at home / Empire - abroad' ; Neoliberal-Neocon-Neocolonialism of The US-MIC and the Parasitic 0.01%, is - for The 99%, I'm sorry to point out, a ...

Hoping for Hitlary Clinton in 2016 is not exactly OWS type-thinking frf - because for sure you don't get a revolution or even watershed 'change you can believe in', by just voting for more of the status quo - imho.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You are a fool and far from an innocent bystander you are the enabler. It is time for action. To move against the enemy before it's too late, you wait for mankind to achieve perfection while Monarchy returns and there is no one to blame but yourself.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

''Allied to the old abuses is a newer kind of superversion: the attempts by billionaires and their lieutenants to destroy the functions of the state. Note the current shutdown – and the debt-ceiling confrontation scheduled for Thursday – in the United States. The Republicans, propelled by a Tea Party movement created by the Koch brothers and financed by a gruesome collection of multimillionaires, have engineered what in other circumstances would be called a general strike. The difference is that the withdrawal of their labour has been imposed on the workers.

''The narrow purpose of the strike is to prevent the distribution of wealth to poorer people, through the Affordable Care Act. The wider purpose (aside from a refusal to accept the legitimacy of a black president) is to topple the state as an effective instrument of taxation, regulation and social protection. The Koch shock troops in the Republican party seem prepared to inflict almost any damage in pursuit of this insurgency, including – if they hold out on Thursday – a US government default, which could trigger a new global financial crisis.

''They do so on behalf of a class which has, in effect, seceded. It floats free of tax and the usual bonds of citizenship, jetting from one jurisdiction to another as it seeks the most favourable havens for its wealth. It removes itself so thoroughly from the life of the nation that it scarcely uses even the roads. Yet, through privatisation and outsourcing, it is capturing the public services on which the rest of us depend.

''Using an unreformed political funding system to devastating effect, this superversive class demands that the state stop regulating, stop protecting, stop intervening. When this abandonment causes financial crisis, the remaining taxpayers are forced to bail out the authors of the disaster, who then stash their bonuses offshore.'' from

I'm not looking for instant ''perfection'' but still blaming Nader for Bush, when Gore just capitulated from the totally justifiable legal fight ; when Rove & co cooked the books and the ballots ; when people were disenfranchised & lost their vote - is extremely limited and even dishonest but of course being a Hitlary 'Neocon/Neolib' Clinton supporter means you'll be perhaps wilfully blind to that and its real implications.

So, just who is the enabler 'frf' ?! Go on, and have the last curmudgeonly, glib comment and thanx for reminding me just what a fruitless task talking to you can be and for underlining your affiliation for and faith in, The 0.01% Parasite Class and their wholly owned and controlled Democrap Party Machine !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

There is value in seeing truth and acting accordingly, Nader put Bush in the White house and he did so with lies going all over the country saying there is no difference, then hedging with not enough difference, his proof was always that they both got money from rich people. This is the same position you have expressed, this implied lie, implying that their policies would not be vastly different, put Bush in the White house, this is simple truth. your work to repeat that event and the country couldn't afford it then and sure as hell can't now.

To not understand that Nader did in fact tell a pack of lies and thusly put Bush in power is to cause us to do it again.

Here's another truth we don't say but it would have the power to change the current budget problems. That truth is that the American people punished the last group in Washington to balance the budget and it looks like Americans still have no stomach for it, but that might cost them viewers if they told the American people that they are the ones who cast the votes in 1994 and said loud and clear we want more debt.

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Go troll the GOP-baggers, Tokyo !!!

[-] 2 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

Fared zakaria said same thing today, as Moyers,

I say republicans don't respect the rule of law, democratic process, or constitution. It is obvious, so we need to all stand up to their treasonous crap.

Didn't they pledge to uphold the constitution? Their oath?

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/fareed-zakaria-republican-gov-shutdown-undemocratic-extortion-video/

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

They pledge anything to infiltrate. But the only pledges they honor are to Grover Norquist and the 1%.

The Constitution and laws-rules-regulations are anathemas to them.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The GOP ie, the "Gang of Puritans" ideal of negotiation is you give us a little something, something and we won't burn the house down. Can anybody tell me what the GOP is offering in this deal?

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The GOP Offer Dog Shit ! That way you're supposed to be happy with the 'bait and switch' of settling for The Democraps' Bull Shit !! Whilst all along, we are all being duly drowned in The Banksters' Pig Shit !!!

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

even as the nation is under direct attack you still sit on the sidelines, how sad....

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

I sit on The 99%'s ''side'' frf, which is why I do what I do - probably just like you ! But sorry to pop your bubble - The Dem's of FDR's days are no longer !! The Party Machine & Pols (as opposed to the long suffering supporters & voters) are owned and controlled by the Banksters, Corporatocracy and Venal Oligarchs !!!

As per below, any joy with 'RT' ?

ad iudicium ....

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The time to kill the GOP and destroy the current two party system is at hand, yet you quibble and fret about if perfection can be achieved, the GOP depends on people sitting on the sidelines and throwing stones of a pox on both your houses to survive in times like this, and you are there cheer-leading on those who help the GOP get through these tough times to fight again.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Seeing beyond the election cycle will help you realise that I'm on The 99%'s side too frf !!! I choose to engage with you because despite your Dem fixation and tribalistic allegiances - I accept that you are empirically for The 99% - ''how sad'' that you can't see that of me too !! No matter - onwards and upwards ... even when it's often 'sideways' !

Effective political activity and the mobilisation of a 99% 'Movement of The Masses' will have to take on a perspective longer than one or two election cycles. A labor based 3rd Party and True 99% Independents need to seriously challenge the duopoly because Ds have been pulled so hard to the right by the Rs, as to be unrecognisable to The 99%. These days FDR would be considered a raving pinko .. (and sad sigh)

You don't get a revolution let alone watershed changes - by sticking with the status quo. OWS is one of the important and very necessary starts of a new paradigm for us all ... either that or it's a dark future of Fascism without opposition. We all should listen to this 1934 audio-file from Huey Long from a lifetime ago : http://www.knowla.org/audio-file/268/ moving, inspiring, eye opening & from 80 years ago + fyi :

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] -2 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, do you really require:

REPUBLICON vampires to attack you in your bed.

GOP hit men to take you out on the freeway.

Rightie Radio to convince your Vietnamese hairdresser to slit your throat.

Denial to let pollution to poison the world.

ACT NOW BEFORE DISASTER!!

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

'Duopoly = Disaster', you fkn gimp !!! Re-read what I wrote and have another rant @ me & I may or may not bump your thread again, depending on how charitable I feel !! Conversely just bump your head hard against a concrete wall !

All on your law professor, POTUS' watch but hey 'cause he ain't a GOP cunt, he gets a pass, right ?!!! NO - he fkn doesn't !! Not here, on these threads, so fess up to being a Dem plant & repent your sins !

multum in parvo ...

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

The one thing you ignore is the the puppet masters behind the system will NEVER allow the GOP to be defeated. They control the votes, they control the media and they control the candidates from primaries.

They will NEVER allow for their system to be destroyed by its own functions.

The only shot the country has is to take hold of their own lives, and create something that reflects them. And that takes a ton of participation, and a ton of action.

If voting made a difference, they would make it illegal.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You're an idiot.

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

If you made a difference we'd all be dead!!

[-] -2 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Brilliant as usual Bensdad. At least you put a different location on your handle these days.

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Here's what you ignore: The 1% control and sabotage us with their GOP cult worshipers!

AND

Ignoring that dooms us to perpetual failure!

Democracy is our SAVIOR!!!

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

So it's HC.

how dumb!

Thanx for thinking I'm BD, I wish!

[-] -2 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

YOU shadz66 Feign standing for the 99% to sabotage efforts to demolish the GOP!!!! The GOP is terrorizing the country, and you blame Dems!!

DAMN YOU FROM THIS BOARD ~ TROLL!!!!!!!!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Given your impolitic melt down on this thread - that'll learn me to comment on your threads ever again - right ?!! Worra fkn eedjut !! Dem-obsessed s.o.b. - look what your man Obomber the Oblah-blah is up to at home & abroad ... Obummer right ?!

Your hallowed POTUS - despite all those wonderful pre-2008 win words, is totally a Bankster's Puppet Extraordinaire and your half of the 'zero-sum game duopoly' has spent 6 years selling out The US 99% and will spend the next 2 years laying the ground for Hitlary Clinton - but you are all for that possibility probably. You really urgently need to hear Karen Hudes on RT's ''Sophie and Co.'' show - pdq, imo ;-)

The Fkn Repugnants are beyond the pale & Democraps are a HUGE fkn fail !! WTFU & see my replies above to frf - which you'll recognise from elsewhere. Thanx again though for that excellent & very highly recommended, Huey Long audiofile link from back in the day, you abrasive, obnoxious, graceless prick.

This is OWS where we ... very reasonably, demand the impossible. Voting for more of the same and expecting something different makes you a lunatic ... irrespective of how well intentioned you may be. Fry your 'Squid' in a knob of butter with herbs & it'll done in a 'Jiffy' and have it on the Toast that you are - but you've cooked my noodle with your B-S on this thread, so more fool me for commenting here.

temet nosce ...

[-] -3 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Is is Tokyo Rose or "GOP cunt"?

[-] -2 points by vagabondblues (18) from Oyster Bay, NY 1 year ago

Both parties anwer to their 1% benefactors.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

OK, how would you get the funds to run for office???

It's a fixed system, made worse by Citizens United!

The Dem party has to beg, the other party-turned-CULT is in league!!

MAJOR DIF!!

PUBLIC CAMPAIGN FINANCE NOW!!!!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You have fully embraced the 1% lie, it is how they maintain control.

The GOP could be killed and the "two" party system would crumble with it, you can't have a "two party" system without two parties, but folks like yourself keep the GOP on life support so the two party system continues.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

The system that is dependent on divide and conquer will never allow it self to be defeated by its own will.

Here, one of the better breakdowns I have seen:

http://www.occucards.com/republicrats/

I plead with you to please read the above card.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Yep you're an idiot, and of course your rantings do nothing but keep the GOP on life support and allow the two party system to survive.

[-] 1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

You are looking at things from your own world. Thats a big mistake.

A) For every loon Dem supporter out there, is another loon Republican supporter. They feed off of each others successes and failures.

B) Divide and Conquer is the plan. The puppet masters will never allow the people to "vote" away their main control mechanism, which is divide and conquer.

They control the media, the money and rules. You dont beat the champ by playing by their rules.

This is basic stuff. Very obvious in every other aspect of life, but political people seem to not recognize it. No doubt another control mechanism.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

A 100,000 people threw their votes away in Florida and "W" became President, it is pretty simple when you think about it.

[-] 1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

And over 200,000 Florida Dems voted for "W"...

The amount of Dems nationally that voted for him is staggering.

What caused this?

Again, you are looking at things from your perspective, instead of the outside perspective. What convinced those 200,00+ people to vote for Bush?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

maybe it was Nader and his pack of lies about how there was no difference, who knows, but anybody who does anything that increases in any way the chance that any Republican will take public office is an idiot, and that includes voting for or encouraging people to vote for anybody who can't beat the GOP monster on the ballot , anybody doing that is just full of their own ego and might as well not vote at all for all the good it does, the day when it was OK for the GOP to be elected is long past.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"and how many GOP supporters voted for Gore? you are an idiot attempting to sound like you inform while lying your ass off"

How many?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I know that cross voting is not the issue you seem to think cross voting is a big deal but only look at one set of numbers because you're a friggin lair.

[-] -2 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Its not an issue unless you are the one running...

If you ran, and 200k+ people voted directly against you, think you might try to address it?

Or would you sit there blaming everyone else but yourself as usual?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

If you knew shit about what you are talking about or if you actually cared about it you would know how many GOP voted for Gore, you are just using random numbers to lie, cross voting is rather deeper than just one side, but like I said you don't care about understanding cross voting you wish only to spread your lies so that the GOP may live to fight another day, your purpose is to weaken the tool which could be used to Kill the GOP so that it may survive.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Sounds like you dont like a pure democracy.

200k+ Dems voting for Bush because of Nader? Is that a joke?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

no one can know what causes another to do what they do, but you can know one thing for damn sure if Nader had not put his name on the ballot in either New Hampshire or Florida then Bush would not have been President, the Towers would be standing and the the USA would be Debt Free ok those last couple are just the mostly likely things based on trends at the time but Bush for damn sure would not have been President.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"you are just using random numbers to lie, cross voting is rather deeper than just one side, but like I said you don't care about understanding cross voting"

Go ahead dude, explain it.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Why? When you have no interest in it? Neither do I really, that's why I'm not talking about it so much, the lies of the sort Nader told to mislead millions is another thing entirely that's something that actually should be addressed.

[-] -2 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

"no one can know what causes another to do what they do, but you can know one thing for damn sure "

Ok, Nader yes. Lets forget about Nader for a second, and the majority of his voters that would never vote for Bush or Gore, due to disdain for establishment politics.

If you are a Dem supporter then you may want to address what happened that 200+ THOUSAND people voted for Bush.

You can't ignore this, and yet all the Nader haters always want to.

Your own people sold you out, not the Nader voters. Most of those Nader voters werent yours to begin with. Over 50% of the population didnt vote for ANY of them, duh.

200k+ Dems voted for Bush. Until you want to address this, the rest is just blame shifting.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

and how many GOP supporters voted for Gore? you are an idiot attempting to sound like you inform while lying your ass off

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[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

It would be fair to say Nader's ego killed the planet.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

about 3,000 votes were stolen by the butterfly, a 100,000 by Nader's ego, Bush needed both to "win"? As a side note at that time I a had what is called a big dish satellite system and watched a lot of backfeed news cast, during the night of Nov. 2008, I watched the designer of the butterfly ballot take advice from Ted Olson before each vote during those first few key hours after poll closing, if I had ran a VHS tape, I would most likely be dead now, hard to say.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Here's a couple of links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_LePore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRE_voting_machine

I was up all night watching raw news feeds and saw the three county officials one of them being Ms. LePore, for a few hours that night the fate of the WH was in the hands of three county officials which took several live votes about what to do only Ms. LePore got advice whispered into her ear before each vote.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

ZD you might think this is banned "conspiracy theory" but as I said above I had a "big dish" and saw it all with my own two eyes, I'm just telling you what I saw I don't care if you believe me and if you can't tell people what you've seen with your own eyes what's the point?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

No what I am telling you is that he was standing by the of the county election official who designed the butterfly ballot on the night of the election advising her before each vote the three of them had, I didn't know at the time it was her but i knew him, i thought it would be a huge story as dozens of newspeople had to have seen it too so i didn't bother recording it, didn't think of it, I was in a bit of a daze with the election and all, but no I mean the lead attorney and future Solicitor General was standing in the middle of the night day of the election giving legal advice before she voted on critical aspects of the recount, before each vote and there were several about how to move forward.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I am surprised you missed the point entirely, Ted Olson was advising the lady, the night of the election... odd you would miss that, and I do think it was around 3,000 votes that Pat Buchanan got from butterfly might of been 3500 should I look it up?

It is unlikely we will see another butterfly ballot, of course other tactics are always being developed, put machines where you want votes, don't where you don't ect..., but there is always a Nader around the corner as well and they always come out just in time to save the GOP.

[-] -2 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

I would think you were a huge fan of Ron Paul and Gary Johnson then.

The establishment right cries the same thing you are.

I guess we should just take our two corporate, pre approved choices and forget about anyone decent.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

You're an idiot and Nader's ego put Bush in the White House.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Yes, because the previous 8 years of shipping all the jobs out, repealing Glass Steagall, putting commodities on the stock exchange, legalizing derivatives, and attacking Iraq on three seperate occasions and Afghanistan as well, along with bombs on the Bulkans...

Things would look radically different if that crew were still in charge.

Oh wait, they never left.

You loyalist Dems are something else. The equivalent of the Limbaugh supporters on the right. Totally buried in blind hope and blame shifting.

Come on man, you gotta see a slight pattern over the last 100 years, right?

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[-] -3 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

A good sex scandal doesnt change all the other atrocities I just listed.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

Three things to consider:

  • How many Dems voted for Nader
  • How many Dems voted for Bush
  • How many Dems stayed home.

Or we can go off of msm talking points.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

we could talk about how the GOP is killing this country and what would be the quickest way to kill the GOP, I'm thinking voting for dems would be a part of that solution, you on the other hand are an idiot with your head up your ass and think there is no real threat, but you are wrong and if fools take their eye off the enemy the GOP & 1% will continue to lock down power.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

If we are going to rank them according to guilt, we have to go with the biggest numbers first.

Number one reason was apathy. Gore couldnt inspire them to come out. If over half your supporters stay home on the one day out of 1400+ days that you need em, you didnt do your job right.

Supporters showing up for the opponent is extremely disturbing. If anything should be addressed, it might want to be that.

Expanding the choices and democracy shouldnt be a bad thing. Its that mindset that has put us in this place to begin with.

Divide and Conquer works best with two choices. Theres a reason they dont let them in the debates. They would get shredded.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The GOP is focused on destroying democracy and you spend your time playing games and avoiding truth at all cost, denigning truth will never lead to revolution.

[-] -3 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

I was initially speaking about the overall system, and how divide and conquer functions, not just in American but in societies since they discovered the great effectiveness of it.

This was your response:

"A 100,000 people threw their votes away in Florida and "W" became President, it is pretty simple when you think about it."

Sorry Factrfun, its a bit deeper than that.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

DO U REALLY believe that???

[-] -1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Mien Kampf: Can you believe those awful, nasty, unfair Dems won't even negotiate about it?!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Just saw a GOP congressman cutting up the nation's credit card, aren't you supposed to pay it off when you do that? or is bankruptcy the direction he intents for the country?

Remember when we had a little bit of a surplus and GOP couldn't cut taxes quick enough, because "Washington was taking in too much money" how do we ever deal with the debt if we never pay off any of it, has any of them said that was a mistake?

[-] 1 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Shock Doctrine in action: Default Catastrophe after Shutdown Disaster after Sequester Austerity after Teabag Invasion after SCOTUS CU Legislation after 2010 Voter Vacation!

We have to remember that when Dem-liberal-progressive rules, regulations or policies work and have created the desired results, IT IS NOT TIME TO REMOVE THEM!!!

When asked if in hindsight would they do anything different, who said No: Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

That's one of the reason's the government is shutdown and we will most likely default the damn media won't ask the question, every time a Republican is on TV they should be asked about when the government was taking in too much money and was cutting taxes a mistake and if we balance the budget would you cut taxes again, these are the questions that should be asked but never are.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 1 year ago

It's a friendly 'corp' environment. The media reporters and politicians all hang out at the same water coolers after the interview.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Even bigger every decision maker in world has an interest in keeping labor cost down.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

If the overall goal, worldwide was to lower labor costs then economic upheaval would benefit the cause,

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Their cause, shock doctrine.

We have to get the Vote out this midterm.

Although it can make it easier, invaders and plunderers don't need to win battles or beauty contests to get what they want.

Tens to hundreds of Billions more lost in an already 1%-GOP-'08 untold-Trillions pillaged economy, and despite obvious RepubliCon culpability this time around, it's conventional wisdom that everyone in government is to blame. "Guvmint's the Prob...!"

This ain't no disco, no CBGBs... !

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

here's a story about money and politics and how the electric companies are starting to turn against solar power as it becomes cheaper

http://www.azcentral.com/business/news/articles/20131020aps-lobbyist-alter-energy-panel.html

We must end the "non-profit" loophole.

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

We are now producing solar energy at a cost of about 75 cents, per watt. It costs 50 cents per watt with fossil fuels. But due to advancements in solar technology and a commonly found mineral we are on the verge of being able to produce solar energy for between 10-20 cents per watt. This is very promising, for sure.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/163561-the-key-to-cheap-solar-power-may-have-been-discovered-over-150-years-ago

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Remember all the progressive energy advancements we made during the Raygun-Bush & Cheney-Bush Regimes??

NO? That's because they only went to Big Fossil in the form of deregulation, subsidies and worlds greatest profits!!

That's just one more reason why: We have to get the Vote out this midterm!

The RepubliCon Cult is out of control RETROGRESSIVE!!!

Time to Take Notice: How Renewable Energy Is Becoming Cheaper Than Fossil Fuels

This is why we need to throw everything we have at making renewable energies our primary way of powering America into the 21st century.

[The hidden & exuberant cost of Big Fossil EXTERNALITIES]

http://www.alternet.org/environment/time-take-notice-how-renewable-energy-becoming-cheaper-fossil-fuels

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

A lot of the current advances are the result of that same incentive that Solaris got part of, but we don't hear as much about the 90% of success stories as we did the few losers, Tesla was one of those companies and their stock is one of the top performers.

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 1 year ago

"Tesla Motors is named after the [Serbian born] electrical engineer and physicist Nikola Tesla. The Tesla Roadster uses an AC motor descended directly from Tesla's original 1882 design."

Tesla worked for Thomas Edison after immigrating to the US in 1884. He resigned from Edison's company though after Edison refused to pay him the $50,000 he owed him for redesigning "Edison's inefficient motor and generators ..[which made] improvements in both service and economy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors

Imagine the different World we would be living in if we had pursued this technology from the beginning.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 12 months ago

soon we will be able to do more than imagine

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 12 months ago

Answering here. As more and more people use solar, and as it becomes more and more efficient, the monopolistic Arizona Public Service Co (APS) began to worry about their bottom line. So they hire lobbyists to change the goal line and use convoluted logic to provide dis-incentives for people to go solar. A prediction that you don't have to be intelligent to make: This is only the beginning as other monopoly power companies (both public & private) will follow suit, or raise the prices of the power they do generate.

I also tend to give "rich folk" a pass when they give back more to the "planet" and its people than they receive. It's those dang greedy, anything goes people with no morals that bother the shit out of me.

Good link, thanks.

[-] 1 points by Devonshire (81) from Norwich, VT 12 months ago

Thanks, along with the advances being made in solar energy, it's all very promising.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 12 months ago

Elon Musk, not exactly a forum to idolize rich folk, but I like Warren Buffet and I think Bill Gates and his wife are doing a lot of good work around the world. This Musk guy has turned saving the planet into a get rich thing, with his Solar City and Tesla Motors, I think he does the private space thing too, Space X, I think, here in AZ solar has gotten so efficient that APS is trying to get out of the agreed to power buy backs.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/20131023aps-revise-its-plan-solar-subsidy-debate.html

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 12 months ago

Under the GOP Hostage Crisis we are suffering, advances, successes and general progress is stifled.

Which is why: We have to get the Vote out this midterm!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6634) from Phoenix, AZ 12 months ago

If we don't kill the GOP!

The GOP will kill Democracy!

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 12 months ago

We just witnessed them try to drown our government in their Grover Norquist bathtub, good thing it was a premature and dysfunctional failure. But it did flush unaccountable billions if not trillions down the toilet. And you can bet their plotting another surprise attack in a few months when this comes up again. The weapon we kill the bastards with is the ballot box, starting in November 2014.

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[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

We are expecting too much from our politicians.

If a handful of people would be honest and not lie and spread misinformation and/or constantly attack and criticize efforts to fix this political-governmental mess, perhaps there would be more harmony. But you have to remember, or realize, democracy by it's very nature is confrontational. It's a blood sport. Many newbies think it should be play dates with juice boxes. That's Unicorn Land.

[-] -3 points by MyBrothersKeeper (-36) 1 year ago

Sounds like an excuse to not act like an adult.

[-] 0 points by WSmith (1977) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

They may have missed the Good Ship Lollipop to adulthood, but there is always hope, always.

[-] -1 points by HCHC4 (-28) 1 year ago

How some can think that our Federal government acts like a democracy at all, or the state govs for that matter, is beyond me.

Its almost like its the exact opposite, where everything that we want, they do the opposite!! ha!