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Forum Post: Bill Maher's message to OWS...

Posted 2 years ago on June 10, 2012, 10:14 a.m. EST by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

..."stop camping, and start participating..."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/09/bill-maher-mocks-occupy-wall-street_n_1583616.html

I think he's right.

328 Comments

328 Comments


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[-] 12 points by bobkat (12) 2 years ago

He definitely has a point. I remember a comment he made during the last election regarding the town hall meetings. "Progressives are yelling at the TV, while Tea Party members are yelling at our representatives". There is no way any of this will change if this current republican party maintains control, and what chance would over turning the Citizens United decision have if the next Supreme Court Justices are nominated by Romney. Somehow there needs to be a more concentration of effort to get more progressives in office. The other side will certainly be doing everything in their power to prevent that.

[-] 10 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

AGREED. If you are staying OUT of the election process, that void WILL be filled by your opponents.

[-] 5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Corporations run both mainstream parties. Pick your poison.

[-] 3 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Vote 3rd party.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Right!

Big Biz and Big Money have a reliable 100% turnout for every election. We, the People, have a schizo 40% if we are lucky, and most of those are independent/undecideds. Nobody should bitch about the Bigs running everything or anything until we break 60%!! "Blame Yourselves!!"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10 Bravo.

[-] 0 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Spread the word!!

The squeaky wheel get's the grease!

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 2 years ago

What's called the "Tea Party" is a lobbyist-financed False Front.

It worked. No surprise, that. Political scams work as often as they fail.

Elections generally and SCOTUS particularly are hanging in the balance.

[-] 4 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Regardless, OWS needs to pick a side and fight for what they believe in, and become politically active.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Hanging in the balance? Both the major parties were bought out a long time ago. And since they are the ones that appoint SCOTUS, the courts are then bought out too.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

But repub SCOTUS appointees found in favor of citizens united and dem appointees dissented. Doesn't that illustrate that both parties are not the same?

[-] 2 points by OccNoVi (415) 2 years ago

Trying to educate a shill ???

You're beyond an optimist.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You're right. My bad. I just wanna annoy republican plants at every opportunity.

[-] 1 points by OccNoVi (415) 2 years ago

They get paid a skosh more when they get replies. The desktop software for the boiler room operations is that sophisticated.

Maybe that's a good idea. Koch billions bled off to somebody who's unemployment ran out in 2010.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

Virtually everything we want hinges on disarming our opponent –
……………………………………………………..GREED
by stopping the flood of bribes into our government.


YOU WANT TO GET IT DONE ? ARE YOU SERIOUS ?
Join the NYC OWS
Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group


This is the first REAL step to REAL change .

government OF the people BY the people FOR the people

JOIN US >
Join the NYC OWS Corporations Are Not People and Money Is Not Speech Working Group
………….( even if you are not near NYC )


http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com no signup or password


check out our comprehensive analysis of
the 17 existing proposed amendments
and our detailed historical timeline of corporate personhood


http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG


We can continue,

as a movement of demands
as a movement of declarations
as a movement of marches

OR


Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION ?
Are you ready
.....................TO DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready
......................TO JOIN 80% OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS ?


We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES


Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -

Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!


80%of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll

.........................................

In the the PFAW Poll -

85% of voters say that corporations have too much influence over the political system today.
77% think Congress should support an amendment to limit the amount corporations can spend on elections.
74% say that they would be more likely to vote for a candidate for Congress who pledged to support a Constitutional Amendment limiting corporate spending in elections.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


Our primary goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enables unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP, the TP, the anti-SOPA – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power and political pressure to achieve their minority goals - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task that the MAJORITY want.

There are at least seventeen different Constitutional Amendments in the works.
Help us support these moves to get the money out of our political system.


Join the NYC OWS
Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group


http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
http://bit.ly/vK2pGI

regular meetings Wednesdays 5:30-7:30PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium


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[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Cool, keep up the great work!

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[-] 9 points by Orichalcum (9) from New York, NY 2 years ago

It seems to me that Occupy needs to splinter into two groups. One that wants to dismantle the system and start over, and one that wants to work within the present system. The problem, as I see it, is that you have a lot of people who feel one way or the other. You can see it in the comments here. Some favor Maher's view. Some despise it. So who owns Occupy? Because it seems you have come to a fork in the road and Occupy can't agree with itself, or the visions for forward progress are, perhaps, too divergent to be unified. Best to ALL.

[-] 3 points by JPB950 (2254) 2 years ago

The two sides can't live with each other and can't live without. You're right and I see it only getting worse as the election draws nearer.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think the anarchists rule OWS at the moment...

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[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

What we need instead of divide people is to unite them. No single sub group has the right to decide for everyone else which form of government we should follow. It should be up to all of the people of the U.S. to decide. Not a small group of plutocrats at the top or a small group of anarchists at the bottom.

Neither group at the top or the bottom even remotely resembles the majority of Americans that make up this country. Each group talks about fairness, but neither wants it to be fairly decided. They just want it their way, to hell with direct Democracy.

Whichever path we choose to follow, it must be up to all of the people to make the decision, no other group should decide for them.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Reform or Rebuild was a conversation I brought up at GA's in Tampa constantly.

And it is split pretty evenly, or at least was, 50/50.

Not sure how it is now, but Im guessing it is probably even more towards rebuild because I know a lot of reformers that were chased away.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Most of the people here are not representitive of the same people who are out in the streets.

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I agree with you. Most people here are worlds apart from the people out in the streets.

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[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

But it will be the people at the ballot box who make the ultimate difference.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You draw that conclusion - from - What?

[-] 0 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Support for the democratic party. I don't know about occupiers in MN but out here nobody talks that shit. Certainly nobody I've ever talked to at a protest or a GA has ever thought it would be a good idea to get involved with them.

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Tell that to George Martinez and the people who host WBAI radios "Occupy Wall Street" Radio Show.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/bill-mahers-message-to-ows/#comment-759988

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

A radio show? Just another example of media getting involved and skewing the message...

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

WBAI is a non profit radio station part of the Pacifica network. The participants in the radio program are Occupy activists.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Of course they are.... Just ask em!!

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Well for what its worth jart seems to have acknowledged the radio program's connection with Occupy Wall Street and it is mainly about Occupy.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Well, if they are pushing pro Dem stuff, then I can tell you that its very different from the scene here.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

They had one radio program (they broadcast five days a week) in which they featured this gentleman http://bumrushthevote.net/bum-rush-the-ballot/.

There was some debate about it that day and after that as far as I know no more said. I don't catch every broadcast, just most of them and it's not at all centered on elections. I don't see harm if there is a pro Occupy Congressman to help push Occupy issues.

[+] -5 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Wake up

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

you wake up. I can only speak for what I have seen with my own eyes, and Peter is dead on.

Im not denying that there are Dem coopters all over, but the real deal are the ones at the camp, and that doesnt fly with em.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

One thing you don't have at a GA is totally free speech.

Everyone is concerned about what their fellows think and are concerned about being accepted.

They also see people get shouted down and treated with varying amounts of derision.

Besides I think you draw the wrong conclusion when you say support for the democratic party.

You look past the members of government that show clearly that they are against the people. These very visible members of government are notably mainly of one party. "Mainly" - as there "are other" members of another party that have also decided to throw in their support to corporations and against the people.

I think if your fellow street protestors took the opportunity to interact here - that they might be more open and honest to their true feelings.

What does protest do past the point of alerting the public that there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed?

Does not protest also involve taking action?

What constitutes action?

Is all action effective?

Does it make sense to have many avenues of action or just one?

How do you grow without outreach and education?

Could anyone at a GA get this communication out - complete - whole - without interruption?

There are real differences in presentation and interaction - but the goal is the same - end corruption greed and crime that is ruining our world.

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[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The beauty of OW had been an ability to bring people of varrying and even opposed politics to get something done in a progressive direction. Now it looks like some factions are claiming "ownership" rights. There should be plenty of room for black blocs, even a neo weather, passive resistance, civil disobedience, legal permitted marches, bloggers and letter writers and voters all under an umbrella of diversity of tactics.

[-] 7 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

OWS has participated in the political process in many respects. But we've always done it as a political pressure group rather than as a group campaigning to elect politicians. Like remember when we took down this website to protest the SOPA bill? Or when we had protests across the country to fight the NDAA? Or the incredible awareness we raised about ALEC which contributed to it losing legitimacy and members leaving? The list goes on, so it's not fair for Maher to say all we did was camp in a park.

But keep in mind this doesn't mean we agree with electoral politics, because we obviously don't.

[-] 4 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yes, Occupy is political but not electoral. That's fine. I have a question though. I listen most weekday evenings to WBAI 99.5 and there is a program called "Occupy Wall Street Radio." One segment was pretty much given over to George Martinez' campaign to get the Democratic Party nomination to run for Congress.

http://bumrushthevote.net/

I don't see the harm in it. What is the harm in that? He says he is a veteran Occupy activist and those who host that radio program that has OWS' name gave him space to speak.

I think most Occupy sympathizers who are citizens of voting age are going to vote and vote for Obama as a lesser evil. I expect I will too but my aim is not so much to elect Obama as to defeat the hard right, the Koch's and Adelson and the Mormon cult too.

[-] 2 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't have a problem with Mr. Martinez. I never got a chance to know him, but he's certainly not trying to co-opt occupy as far as I can tell. That being the case, he has every right to identify with the movement and boast of having participated in it to support his campaign.

As for occupiers voting for obama in the next election, that may be the case but keep in mind that doesn't mean they're democrats. According to the latest polls conducted by the st.org's anti-market research department, 65% of ows supporters are likely to vote in 2012. On the other hand, 64% of our supporters are politically independent. So I don't think the percentage of us who are voting democrats is all that high.

But still I wish people wouldn't vote for Obama. I'm very proud to say I never voted for the guy.

[-] 3 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm not saying they are Democrats. I'm not even saying they much appreciate Obama. I didn't vote in 2008. I haven't voted since 1968 to the best of my memory. It just seems to me and probably to others who are pro Occupy that the vote exists, and that it will be less harmful if Obama wins. I'll take that one step further. If, as it seems to be shaping up, that Obama is vastly outspent by the Republicans and they still lose it will represent a relative maturing of the American public to resist a media onslaught.

I fear with a Romney win the people who are more inclined to be pro Occupy will be demoralized, the racists and homophobes energized and the Mormon Church strengthened. All bad things.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

I really like the answer you gave here, especially the first paragraph. I wish more people who are not "Occupy supporters" and more people who are "Occupy supporters" could read that paragraph. In a tiny space, you seem to say / imply a lot about inclusiveness and participation.

There is a lot of room under our big "tent" and we have more in common than we have dividing us. I think as soon as we Americans realize that, we will be able to make decisions from a position of unified strength rather than demands from a position of divided weakness. The habit of division is so difficult for us to unlearn. It's cool that you're a voice for unity. The propaganda out there in the mainstream media sought to pigeon whole Occupy to make everyone other than "freeloading hippies" feel separate from it.

Yours is a voice of inclusion -- seeing commonality. I just wanted to write and say that I sincerely believe that such a mindset will someday carry the day. I really do think that may be the ultimate secret to our success and our highest priority. That shift in mindset that allows us to shed the pettiest of our differences could be really transformative. It may be the thing the 1% is most afraid of.

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[-] 0 points by BetsyRoss2 (125) 2 years ago

Who did you vote for in 2008?

[-] 3 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

M.C. Caine

lol no not really. I cast my ballot for anarchy and voted for no one.

I don't vote for a variety of reasons. But mostly it's because I believe voting is in some ways a form of consent. Had I had voted for Obama in 2008, I would feel kinda guilty and somewhat personally responsible today, knowing that I supported a warmongering corporate stooge.

However I support voting in local elections where your vote actually makes a difference (assuming you don't live in a dense urban area), rather than wasting time with the rigged federal system.

[-] 2 points by BetsyRoss2 (125) 2 years ago

I see. I feel the same way sometimes when I vote. I'm not voting FOR someone (because both candidates aren't great) but I'm voting AGAINST the worst option (aka I don't like either of you, but one of you is less terrible than the other.)

I don't think the system is rigged as much as people are stupid and lazy. They're too enamored with mindless TV to realize that you don't have to pick between one of two parties... There's other options if enough people really wanted to change. Unfortunately we're not yet at the "tipping point" where enough people's lives are ruined for this kind of change to occur.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

San Diego has a contested write ballot issue that never resolved

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So you discourage voters in "dense urban areas" from voting?

Doesn't that surrender the levers of power to the suburbanites who are mostly NOT progressive at all?

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[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

If all we do is protest, the King-Cons will be very VERY happy.

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I would want to see a multi pronged strategy that includes electoral, street, workplace, university and school, legal and not so legal arenas and means of struggle. I think that's how a revolution gets done.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Just remember, Big Money and Big Biz have a reliable 100% turnout, while we, the People, can barely muster a schizo 40%, most of which are independent/undecided! Multi-diffuse at your/our own risk. But don't ask why the Bigs run everything.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The 99 are going to do what we do. Some want to be black bloc. Some want to write their congressperson. Some want to vote for someone some want to vote against someone. As much as possible we shouldn't be demonizing each other or excommunicating each other. As much as possible we should be working together.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Sorry, "Ignorance is no excuse!"

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I agree with all your posts here. I do prefer all forms of non violent protest including voting (based on the issues). I think the turnout numbers you cite are most profound. I think the 1% fear most a bigger/full turnout. I support mandatory voting for all eligible citizens. All change can be achieved with that one change.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

too many of us are concentrating on the road
rather than the destination
if some of us see the political system as a way to support the 99% - GOOD!
if some of us see marches and actions as a way to support the 99% - GOOD!


why should we be monolithic ? we are not a religion!
KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE PRIZE
disconnect capitlism from democracy


[-] 2 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

We initially had the power of political pressure. We don't have that power anymore because of this stance of not getting involved in electoral politics. That is the only thing corporations and politicians fear. And over time with no core message and a way to achieve those goals we lose more support everyday. And the power of a movement is the support it has. We run the real risk of being toothless complainers with no bite as time goes on. And the corporations and politicians know this.

All of those other examples you labeled off was more than just us bringing those to the attention to the people. We can not take full credit even though Occupy was a big part of pushing for those things to be stopped.

[-] 1 points by Wayhey (6) from Hamilton, ON 2 years ago

They do not fear that at all, and there they always have the advantage - unlimited resources. Everyone can be bought in politics. You can't buy off the vast crowds in Tahrir Square. Take to the streets December 21st.

[-] 3 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

What are you talking about, political pressure is the only thing they actually fear. I think you misunderstand what I mean by political pressure. What I mean by that is public opinion. If the public is rallied against them then it means they are going to take action politically. And that action is going to be against them and their agenda.

Its not about buying off citizens...

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

They are myopic navel gazers. Hopeless.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

While we let the Anarchists lead us into the ground we loose more and more support. In large part because now we are seen as a bunch of Anarchists trying to abolish government. While all this is going on the Anarchists tell us that we are winning...

Yet while Occupy looses support our democracy is becoming more of a joke with all the big anonymous money and jerry rigging. And Occupy's response to all of these problems is to...just keep protesting. Nothing else.

Yeah this movement is in serious fucking trouble. We keep up with this same strategy we will protest ourselves out of relevancy. Im not saying we stop protesting. Not that at all. But there needs to be more than just this. It is not working.

[-] 2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

VOTER Suppression, Union Busting, Flaccid Political Action, Citizens United Purchased Elections (WI), Another WMD-GOP Witch Hunt, Big $ and Biz Always Turns Out, Americans Have the Lowest Turnout, and YOU Wonder How it Got This Way and Don't Know What to do???

In Just 4 Months We Decide Whether CU-$-Backed Regressive Democracy Haters or Unorganized Unsupported Progressives Run Our Gov

Posted 11 hours ago on July 2, 2012, 9:34 a.m. EST [BANNED]

(Partisan Labels Removed for rules? It didn't help)

Do we let Big CU Money Buy the Election like They did in WI? Or do we get out the Vote and fight back like we did in 2006 and 2008?

With just 4 months to Election 2012 we just need to make sure we don't repeat 2010 (Never EVER Again!)! No more Blanks in Congress (state and fed) and definitely no Blank in the WH! We are still suffering from their last WH Occupancy!!

This is strictly a get every warm body to Vote time. No pouting or sniveling over petty Blank imperfections. We cannot let these crazy Blanks seize control. They've thrown down the gauntlet with their crazy and treasonous Shock Doctrine plans and they can't be allowed back in our government just because their sabotage has worked. They will cheat and steal the election any way they can. So we MUST fight back!

We must get out Massive Votes!

When Big Biz and Big $ shows up, Fucking Blanks steal elections. But when We the People show up, imperfect but sane Blanks win!! Fight back and VOTE!!

Don't let Big Biz and Big Money buy elections for their Blank toadies.

Don't let these greedy bastards make us a third world nation!

LET'S Repeat 2006 and 2008 and Vote for Blanks!!!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Actually, as a 501c3, OWS is officially apolitical. :(

[-] 4 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't think you really understand how this movement works. The fiscal sponsor that the NYCGA uses is a 501c3 afaik, but that has nothing to do with the activists themselves, this website, or all the other occupations.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

OWS can NOT spend donations directly supporting one candidate or another...

Sure YOU can say I prefer Candidate A because of X,Y, and Z, but you only represent 'you', and not OWS.

What this means is that by operating as a 501c3, OWS effective politically neutered itself. The day I found this out, I ended my OWS 'activities'. I am interested in affecting positive change through available political processes, not be a wall flower.

[-] 5 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

But OWS doesn't operate as a 501c3. For instance OccupyWallSt.org, @OccupyWallSt, and Occupy Together are in many ways the loudest voice of the movement and we're not bound by any of those 501c3 restrictions because we're not tied to the NYCGA and we've never taken a dime from them. We could come out tomorrow and say we support Obama if we really wanted to, but that doesn't mean we will. So I don't know what you're talking about.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I agree we shouldn't or won't support Pres Obama but I think we should encourage voting behavior that can slow right wing policy enactment, while building a new country (from the ground up preferably). I do not support 3rd party/no consent/or not voting. I believe the 1% has benefitted and prefers voters staying home, and being apathetic. They know most apathetic voters who stay home are low income 99% who would more likely vote left wing.

[-] 4 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

But the "left wing" politicians like Obama are starting to turn out to be more right wing that the neo-conservatives. To be honest, I would rather have Romney get elected because it would agitate liberals into waging resistance. Plus we've had like two rigged presidential elections in the past two decades. It's just pointless!

Maybe we should encourage people to vote in local elections and boycot the federal elections. Electoral change from the bottom up.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I cannot support voting for the party that proudly proclaims their allegiance to the right wing wacko policies that serves the 1%. I do not want things to get worse, in order to get better. I cannot agree the dems (pres Obama) are as bad as neo cons. I believe the Dems have betrayed the left by voting for right wing policies (Clinton repeal of glass steagle, war approval etc), that is worse than repubs since they are honest about their pro 1% efforts. I also believe the people of the left hold some responsibility. The Dems have moved right for 30 years. We have allowed the right to successfully demonize the agenda of the left (weak on def, tax and spend) We have allowed the Dems to seek election success by getting 1% money when we went to sleep.! We are only now waking up. We CAN co opt the Dems! Drag them back to the left! Make them serve the 99% who are their natural supporters/constituents. Listen. Repub Scotus appointees found in favor of citizens untied. Dems appointees did not!, A dem president stated it was wrong at a state of the union (unprecedented) and has appointed 2 scotus judges who would find against it. Dems all over the country have recognized this insidious ruling and have begun the long process to undo it. Not repubs! they proudly support it. Last month dems in the house voted to repeal the ndaa2013 amendment, Repub defeated it. In 1/2 an hour A dem pres will create a way to keep immigrant people (who came here before 16 yrs old) here legally. Over repub objections. Repubs have signed the Norquist pledge, Dems have not. Dems voted for the Buffett rule, Repubs defeated it and have gone on the record that they will cut wealthy taxes again at the expense of poor/sick/and elderly. Dems pushed the healthcare public option, Repubs defeated it. repubs have watered down and delayed fin reform, Both healthcare and fin reform will be better if we (OWS) agitate for specific changes, gather support inclusively from the left, and protest, pressure all pols for a left wing agenda. If the dems had a large (peaceful) movement to point to as leverage to implement te left wing agenda we can defeat the right wing 1%.. Of course I am with you on creating a new country (from the ground up preferably) by any non violent means necessary, but I know the parties are vastly different. And I know we can co opt the dems to serve the 99%. The 1% wants us to boycott and leave the levers of power in their hands. We cannot submit. We must increase turnout. This is what the 1% fears the most (look at right wing ALEC voter suppression efforts all over the country). Mandatory voting for all eligible citizens. That change (and publicly funded/repealing citizens united) would facilitate all other left wing agenda success. Sorry I rambled. don't get a lot of opportunity to discuss with the "great and powerful jart" smile ;)

[-] 3 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm no great and powerful jart. I'm not even that politically sophisticated.

You're much more optimistic than me about fixing politics in America. The way I see it is that, it wasn't so great to begin with but now it's completely failed and irredeemable. So I like to save my optimism for the revolution.

If the only issue we were facing was the lacking prosperity of the middle class, then I would agree with you that'd it make sense to slowly reform the system back to sanity. But with the severity of our crimes and the problems we're creating, I'm honestly not sure if we have the time. We simply can't allow the wars, environmental destruction, and mismanagement of finite resources to go on a day longer.

Reforming the political process is also a game played privileged people like to play because it does little to help the worst off among us. I don't feel right telling people who are homeless and hungry lgbt youth who're persecuted by society and denied access at every turn that they have to wait another fifty years for change while we play ball with the dems. Especially since such people are oftentimes the ones who start social movements like occupy and fight on the front lines. For them, revolution is survival

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Your humility is refreshing. I therefore very respectfully disagree. I don't know how old you are (and I won't ask) but some of us have been around long enough to remember things like the Vietnam war. I was of draft-able age. My perception of that situation was that the people, mostly young students, actually did push TPTB. You might say they did actually co-opt the party, rather than the other way around. Ironically, it was a Republican that ran on a campaign promise (which was kept) to end the war. Say what you will about crazy Richard Nixon, but he did end the war. It is also very likely that Johnson's decision not to run for another term was due to the fact that he didn't have the guts to just end the war and would have been voted out anyway. This was an example of using both conventional political power AND the power of public protest. I don't think it has to be "either or".

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Nixon ran on the promise to end the war in 1968. Then didn't (instead he expanded it into laos, and cambodia). Not until his next term which he won in 1972 by cheating (which led to his impeachment and resignation in disgrace) did he end the war. Isn't that how it happened? Thats how I remember it. but I was kinda young at that time.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

It was already in Lao's and Cambodia before 1968.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Yes, that's pretty much the way it went. Specifically, it was of course, the Watergate break in that lead to his impeachment.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

There are reasons to believe that Johnson did have very real plans that Nixon torpedoed to win his election.

Please remember that Nixon really was the worst kind of crook.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Admissions-on-Nixon-s-Tre-by-Robert-Parry-120615-507.html

[-] 2 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

Yes ,Nixon was the worst. They didn't call him "Tricky Dickey" without good reason. Too bad Johnson didn't expose him.

[-] 1 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm 27. I don't mind you asking at all.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 2 years ago

I'm very glad to see young people taking a stand.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

If a revolution emerges I will be there. I can't say that revolution in this police state is more likely than reform. But if revolution can solve our problems I am with it. In the meantime I can't let the right wing do more damage to the lgbt/poorest among us. It don't have to be fifty years. most movements in fact have taken decades but the difference now is the internet. There is some possibility that it can be the vehicle to speed up the change we need. It can be the difference with revolution and/or reform. I can't give up on either.

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Some dems "pushed the public option". The ones in charge of the Senate at the time not only ruled public option out from the get go, they had public option advocates arrested and ejected.

http://blip.tv/grittv/grittv-senate-finance-committee-hearing-on-health-care-reform-doctors-arrested-2092013

I still agree tht as a practical matter a progressive should vote not so much for Obama and the Dems but against Romney and the repugs.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I can't let the right wing gain more power, and cause more damage while we rebuild the country (from the ground up preferably). I suppose if we get the revolution done soon it wouldn't matter but I don't see that happening right now and it seems like it will take many years. Which is what I would expect. The is reasonable. I do not agree that things need to get worse before they get better. I have a child and do not want that.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The Communists in Germany thought that things had to get worse before they could get better and they refused to cooperate with the Social Democrats to stop Hitler. They had an asinine slogan "After Hitler Us." It didn't quite work out that way and it won't now. Oppose Romney and the far right with no illusions about Obama and the Democrats.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Revolution of course. But I gotta stay engaged in our elections and pressure all pols for what I think are necessary progressive changes that will help the 99%.

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

It's best to vote Democrat and get out into the streets to try and press and force them to serve the 99 percent. but don't count on them either.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I'll be ready. If I haft!a get brooklyn on them I will.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It's true the dems have moved right in the last 30 years, they have betrayed their left wing principles, they have caved into and voted for right wing policies. I believe they did this partly because the people of the left have been asleep. Even after the last election. The left was crazed, attended massive populist rallys. We elected Obama then went back to the couch. If a party can't win elections by having the base with them the party will turn to the monied interests. If we are asleep the dems will cave. OWS can be the means to pressure dems to vote progressive. Any movement is most effective if it is constant, growing, inclusive. engaged. And pressuring the pols to vote our interests.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I was drafted to fight in Vietnam by Lyndon Baines Johnson and it was under his watch that MLK was murdered by unpunished conspirators so I have few illusions I would imagine about what the Dems even "leftist" Dems can do. The rightist momentum has to be broken and that's why the PAC money has to be repudiated by the voters. Then get ready to rumble because the Dems don't have plans to help the 99 either.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

After all the President is an individual - Senate and Congress are the main issues/Bodies to advancing the needs of the people.

This is also true in state government - the governor is a single person. The houses push forward the peoples interests or the corpoRats interests.

Vote out anti-people politicians.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

What's happening in the States is no joke.

It might be the fastest way to affect change.

Wisconsin was a loss for all of us. Is Michigan next?

http://www.freep.com/article/20120615/BLOG36/120615034/vagina-Michigan-House-Representatives-Lisa-Brown-Barb-Byrum-abortion?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

This shits gotta stop before anything will change on a national level.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Your 'money' is handled by a 501c3 group.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Do you see the lowest participated-in democracy in the modern world?? It's a fucking mess! Others filled your void, it has been stripped, jacked, pissed on, and sold to the highest bidder!

You actually have it backwards. We became the lowest participated-in democracy in the modern world after the People saw that the government had been stripped, jacked, pissed on, and sold to the highest bidder. Participation gained zero results, it didn't matter if you voted or not, the outcome was the same.... so people stopped showing up at the polls.

Before you give lectures and start calling people here idiots think a little. Arguments can be made for participation, but gaining our government back through voting will not be one of them.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

not as long as the voting is rigged

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

This is a democratic republic, we get the government we deserve.

Voter apathy, and BEHAVIOR LIKE YOURS, continues to give us poor representatives.

Wanna help our cause? INFORM VOTERS.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

We get the best government money can buy.

Behavior like mine? I follow in the best traditions of the USA. Lets go toss some tea in a harbor, blockade courtrooms, have sit down strikes, tar and feather tax collectors, have a million man march.... shake up this corrupt system.

Pulling levers in a booth doesn't cut it anymore, hasn't for decades. Now you have been informed.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

They did so because they didn't have democratic representation...

We DO.

What do you plan to replace our democratic republic with, that would be better?

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

We do? What changed? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Our representatives take care of special interests, not their constituency. In effect we have no representative government.

I would like to force a Constitutional convention for an amendment to take money out of politics, money out of lobbying, install term limits, and have meaningful campaign reform.

Then we need real financial reform. As of right now we are still just as susceptible to systemic failure as ever.

Then and only then will my vote maybe count for something. I don't want to replace the system, just tweak it... remove the loopholes.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

We the People of the US have the lowest Voter turnout in the world!

Them the Big Biz and $ have the highest turnout in the world!

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't figure out why Big $ and Biz calls all the shots!!!

How do you figure out how to turn on your computer??

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

So says the 'Dedicated liberal progressive Democrat.' That is how you describe yourself under your profile.

Are you so fucking stupid that you can't figure out why Big $ and Biz calls all the shots!!!

From you're reply you are insinuating they do because they vote then.... which we know they don't. They call the shots because they have the money to lobby and influence. Take off the blinders please.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Infer this: SCOTUS: Money is speech, and unlimited and secret money is just fine. ?x Billion turnout. I'll put that up against your measly GOP Vote anytime.

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Which is why voting doesn't work.... and its not my GOP vote. Pressure has to be put on the powers that be in DC that a Constitutional Convention is mandatory. They won't vote for it themselves, and as a citizen you can't vote for it. State legislatures can vote for it.

But I'll put any vote you can muster vs. a few million in the street demanding action and accountability anytime. Nothing scares the powers that be more than massive civil unrest.... nothing.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

No, because Big Biz's cheats it's GOP into Gov is why NOT VOTING doesn't work! The Bigs have the best world turnout, We the Peeps have the worst. That's why we're in this lame-brained "Voting is futile" mess!

The PTB are strictly private sector, they have GOP lackeys to their political dirty work.

Without Votes, protests are circle-jerks! Votes! That's why they spend the money. VOTES! They laugh at protests.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

NO... You have it backwards. The question is if it's deliberate or ignorance?

One glaring thing is missing in your displaced rebuttal: Where's your solution? All slime and No solution is quintessential RW MO! So are simplistic recriminations!

Drum circles and bank sit-ins are going to solve NOTHING! Except give Big Biz and the GOP a good laugh. You could probably get a check from them for your solution discouragement.

[-] 0 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

If you don't like the philosophy and tactics of OWS, then move on. This obviously isn't the place for you. One has to consider your motives then for being here, is it deliberate or ignorance?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

And still no solutions!

This is part of the Shock Doctrine plan of attack in the Class War being waged by the 1% PTB and their GOP soldiers, against us 99%. It's happening to the USPS as addressed in a new Occupy post. Our only means to fight back is to VOTE!!!

In Just 4 Mos We Decide Whether CU-$-Backed Regressive Democracy Haters or Unorganized Unsupported Progressives Run Our Gov

Posted 11 hours ago on July 2, 2012, 9:34 a.m. EST by JS93 (-7) | edit | delete [BANNED]

This content is user submitted and not an official statement

(Partisan Labels Removed)

Do we let Big CU Money Buy the Election like They did in WI? Or do we get out the Vote and fight back like we did in 2006 and 2008?

With just 4 months to Election 2012 we just need to make sure we don't repeat 2010. No more Blanks in Congress (state and fed) and definitely no Blank in the WH! We are still suffering for their last WH Occupancy!!

This is strictly a get every warm body to Vote time. No pouting or sniveling over petty Blank imperfections. We cannot let these crazy Blanks seize control. They've thrown down the gauntlet with their crazy and treasonous Shock Doctrine plans and they can't be allowed back in our government just because their sabotage has worked. They will cheat and steal the election any way they can. So we MUST fight back!

We must get out Massive Votes!

When Big Biz and Big $ shows up, Fucking Blanks steal elections. But when We the People show up, imperfect but sane Blanks win!! Fight back and VOTE!!

Don't let Big Biz and Big Money buy elections for their Blank toadies.

Don't let these greedy bastards make us a third world nation!

LET'S Repeat 2006 and 2008 and Vote for Blanks!!!

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

You just can't read or comprehend what you read. I gave a solution...

Turn the volume and rhetoric down and try listening instead of dictating to others your agenda.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Not talking to senseless America-hating righties, go get busy impeaching Roberts for betrayal!

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Problem with people ( some people ) is they say well that is all fine and good - but what have you done for me today? These though fortunately are often times attackers trying to sow discord.

People with a sense of reality know that it can not be gang busters every day - not at least until you hit a critical mass.

Hey - jart - good to see you.

[-] 1 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Good to see you too DKA

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I miss my seven digit number - I felt so large and in charge. {:-D

[-] 1 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yea you were like king of the website for a day. (Assuming you're male identified)

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Jenny's number was pretty funny but what this signifies mystifies (9150). Will it return to normal soon? Yep - male - lover of women - all people but you know what I mean.

[-] 2 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Well your score is going to go up a lot when I stop being lazy and figure out which accounts have going nuts downvoting you because they don't appear to be obvious bot accounts.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

OH - well I hope it is everyone who got blasted.

Wouldn't want it to be just me.

I have already been accused by the A-Hole attackers of having undue influence.

[-] 2 points by jart (1147) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Well you participate in this forum a lot so I think you've earned your klout.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well thank you but you really needn't bother. People who have been here know each other fairly well by now. Appreciate the thought though. {:-])

[+] -4 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

How can you expect to "agree" with a process that you have largely neglected for the past 30+ years?? Do you really think the system is somehow going to coast along in your favor just waiting at your side for you to hop on when it suits you?? Wake up sleepy heads!! That's not how it works!! Just step out of your car when you feel like getting out and see what happens. Do you see what happens? IT FUCKING CRASHES YOU IDIOTS!!

Do you see the lowest participated-in democracy in the modern world?? It's a fucking mess! Others filled your void, it has been stripped, jacked, pissed on, and sold to the highest bidder!

Good thing our forefathers built it with the strongest and most renewable and resilient substance known in the entire universe: the will of the People. All it needs is PARTICIPATION and this democracy is unstoppable! That's why the 1% Kings put so much money into it come election time.

Wake up and get involved with the solution! Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!

[-] 4 points by writerconsidered123 (344) 2 years ago

concure

[-] 3 points by occupycampbellco (34) from Newport, KY 1 year ago

We also need to nullify the Nazi-like "right-to-work" laws.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

get people 'elected' to do that...

[-] 3 points by luparb (290) 2 years ago

We need to revolutionize the political process itself.

We need to bring democracy to the school, the university, the workplace. We need to democratize production and the economy itself.

It's a revolution of consciousness, social relations, values and more.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

WE have a GREAT democratic system, we just need voters to be better.

"Vote Smart, or not at all."

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Excuse me for being captain obvious here, but isn't 'not thinking for ourselves' and 'complacently following the boob tube' the exact thing that got us into this mess in the first place.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Negligence is what got us here.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Voting poorly is the reason we have crappy representatives.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

What does that have to do with Maher's point?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It is a separate point, really.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Good to know.

[-] 0 points by Wayhey (6) from Hamilton, ON 2 years ago

They are great representatives if you happen to own them.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

They Rep who shows up! That is not us! Get it?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+5...

It could'a been better with a little more quip. :)

[-] 3 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Since I no longer pay for TV I guess I shouldn't be concerned about Bill Maher. He's just another guy on cable.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Better than most, not the best. My nod goes to John Stewart.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Does Maher even claim to support "global revolution" like this website does? I wouldn't know because like you I don't have cable and don't want it.

[-] 1 points by Wayhey (6) from Hamilton, ON 2 years ago

Maher changes his mind every week. Happens to lots of stoners. :~)

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

does that come with rice pilaf or roasted reds

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

he gave i mil to the 0bama re-elect campaign , so yes , maher supports global revolution because 0bama does.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Obama supports a global revolution? Where did you get that bizarre idea?

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

0bama skill list isnt just about terrorists, the #1 target is the usa as founded. he's anti - private industry, therefor he's anti american.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

That is ridiculous!

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

obama is obsessed with his kill list. he is anti american. the drones are a cover for a world wide "policing" operation.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sounds delusional. The drone strikes represent a lower level of military action than we;ve had for 80 years. President Obama is great for limiting the death and destruction we are responsible for.

[-] 1 points by Wayhey (6) from Hamilton, ON 2 years ago

Are you nuts? Drones kill more civilians than "militants", then they kill the rescuers first on the scene, then they bomb the funerals. The policy is mass-murdering paranoia and creating more enemies than the US will be able to handle pretty soon.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

You will have to excuse him. You see anything that obama does is ok because he's a democrat. No matter how outrageous or terrible.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I have said repeatedly I am against the targeted secret drone strikes. I just disagree with you that it amounts to the same thing as Bush's slaughter of millions. You equate it because you are trying to minimize your boy bush's crimes. I criticize Pres Obama, you minimize Bush's war crimes.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Haven't heard any of that. besides aren't these secret missions how would you know. And I hope you don't think we are killing millions as we did in the '70's (vietnam,laos,cambodia,east Timor, south America) '80's (central America, Africa, Afghan)'00's( Iraq,Afghan) MILLIONS.!! I am against the secret targeted drone attacks but I know it represents a major improvement of our military use. If it were Bush we would've sent 1/2 million troops and killed millions in Lybia,Yemen,Syria. Thank God for this great Ptresident.

[-] -1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

You'd be on it but they don't have a drone with a small enough weapon for gnats.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I agree completely with this assessment.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yeah, right. So Maher speaks for Obama. That's something I can believe.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

everybody is posting about this one, Maher was right about the Iraq War and he's right about this...

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"Politically Incorrect" was my all-time favorite show.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The dipshit that replaced him is dead to me to has been ever since...

Nothing reflects cowardice more than the actions of ABC.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It was only like 20 minutes of debate and discussion, but it was pure unadultered Free Speech at its finest. Check out any one with Christine O'Donnell.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I tried to be a "citizen guest" but I worked nights the night before and when I got to the auditions they were already full up and I didn't get a shot, always wondered what might of been....still may get a shot at meeting him, I’d love to chat with him a bit, he’s pretty sharp just a little naive. .

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wrote endless letters, e-mails, and message board posts begging to be on...never worked out.

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

About 1 in 4 people were right about Iraq. We felt that giving a blank check to the military would put us on a path to bankruptcy.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

was it that low? people do like their wars, we do have to keep in mind that Bush kept saying he needed the power to go to war so he could force peace, I guess people would rather look stupid than naive and not many point that out…

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

And some of us didn't want our government to mass murder Arab people.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.... correlation is not proof.

Having said that, many organizations have two arms. One that is activist in nature and another that is their political arm. The danger is always for the political arm getting co-opted by the system. Maybe its time for an OWS political arm, not the whole movement. Close ties and limitations should be set on what the political objectives would be and how they were to be accomplished.

There is room for both approaches.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

And clichés are not conversation, he points out that the TEA party controls 62 seats in congress that’s real power, the power to get questions asked, and answered, if OWS wants a voice it has got to get some seats, at the end where he says the thing about Obama having to deal with “these crazy motherfuckers” that’s the goal at least short term, does it look to you like the TEA party is being “co-optt” it looks to me like they are driving the GOP buss, I’d like a shot at that.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

And clichés are not conversation,

But neither are arguments that suffer a fail in logic, with all due respect. His correctness on Iraq has nothing to do with whether he is correct on this topic... that was my point.

Would you really like a shot at driving the Dem bus? Frankly, the GOP political machinge has been in power for quite some time. Does it seem really logical that miraculously these 'unknowns' come in off the street and are truly driving that parties agenda?

"The Tea Party movement is not a national political party; polls show that most Tea Partiers consider themselves to be Republicans[16][17] and the movement's supporters have tended to endorse Republican candidates.[18] Commentators, including Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport, have suggested that the movement is not a new political group but simply a rebranding of traditional Republican candidates and policies."

That doesn't sound like they were very far away from Republicans to start with. How can you be co-opted if there is very little ideological difference to begin with. They are just slightly more radical Republicans.

Does OWS membership fit this description? Do you think that the majority of us are just disgruntled Democrats looking for a chance to set the Democratic party straight again? If you do, then I can see your point, why you think the way you do.

Personally I don't think this is the case. I think that most of OWS is unsatisfied with all of politics, feeling that corruption has ruined our system. The fix may involve a new way of moving forward that does not use a representative democracy as we have it, or capitalism in its current form.

Maybe I'm wrong about the makeup of OWS and its aims?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I find very little support for a Constitutional Convention among the OWS supporters, so I would say that yes I feel it is mostly people who are upset with the way things are going, more than those that want to throw out the Constitution and trust whatever comes out of that. As far as the TEA party there have been many who study this and say that the GOP has been driven further right than ever before, here’s one link:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2230582969

So yes I want OWS to have people who depend on OWS for their political support so that our concerns about wealth and its influence will be heard. I am here speaking to that issue, almost every day. Here is a link to a TEA party win this is what we need to be doing.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/now-with-alex-wagner/47616663/#47616663

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

we can ask from here

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7040) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Where did I put that subpoena pad?

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Two arms

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[-] 2 points by elf3 (2506) 2 years ago

Stop voting, start running for office - we need people under 40 who understand the need to get rid of monopolies and allow entrepreneurship to thrive again. We need employers not overlords.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

We need good representatives, regardless of their age.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (2506) 2 years ago

I've heard no mention of the dire housing crisis facing young adults - from anyone - generations before this could rent to save money - now they work 3 jobs to pay rent forget about saving for their own homes. They talk about giving some big government contractor loads of dough to build giant smoke filled ugly cramped complexes (fyi they build those in China too) but no mention of land ownership as the foundation of American dream. All they want to do is prop up housing so property is worth more to investors and so people who already own can borrow against their equity.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

We NEED Green Party candidates.

[-] 1 points by KevinPotts (363) 1 year ago

Re: Bill Maher's message to OWS...

"stop protesting and start voting for fake-liberal, anti-progressive, pro-war democrats who serve the greedy interests of the 1% because at least they are "a little bit better" than the bat-shit-crazy-republicans."

I think that's stupid.

( 0:50-1:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjye0RmkqWw

Bill Maher donated a million dollars to the Obama campaign. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2012/02/bill-maher-donates-million-dollars-to-obama-pac.html

"Obama-Loving Liberal Hypocrite Bill Maher Now Loves Predator Drones" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNMD8_J1cr4

There Is Something Wrong with the World... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBtPuuqBYXQ

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Then find a good third party candidate to support.

[-] 1 points by ericweiss (575) 1 year ago

the tp, the liquor prohibition movement, the civil rights movement, the muslim brotherhood in Egypt all started in the streets .
AND
all won with political action and voting


when will be have the courage to admit these truths ?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Later rather than sooner, it would seem...

[-] 1 points by ElectoralReform (73) 2 years ago

Bill Mauer keeps saying that OWS needs candidates, and I think that's the key: OWS needs to get heavily involved in the political process, but not for the Dems (or specifically, only the few remaining legitimate Ds) For the rest, it's time to throw support to third parties.

Green and Libertarian are the most logical (green probably closer to OWS, read Jill Stein's new green deal)

Two results: one, you're not supporting Ds who continue to dissapoint two: you are threatening the Ds by removing a base they think they own. If OWS comes out and says they will not support Ds, they'd have to think why, and try to win back OWS. I think the two party system is a failure, but voting against and the threat of voting against Ds will be a good effect. Nobody wants president Romney, but at some point the 'lesser of two evils' has to end.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

We NEED "Congressmen"...LOTS of them.

[-] 1 points by Justoneof99 (80) 2 years ago

Bill, Stop the 1%er jabbering and start writing checks.

[-] 1 points by rusereus (7) 2 years ago

Absolutely! I was in full support of a OW,S that is inception. the whole idea of being , non political was quaint at first. I figured eve,ntually they would, like the tea party movement, acknowledge that they pretty much follow with 1 political identity, and support people to start running for congress and actually make a difference. when they stayed with this non interventionalists, "we don't support 1 party ", delusion , I finally had enough and said the heck with this movement what's the point . when or if I find out that the leaders have grown backbone I may consider following it again . I think you'll find a lot that have my same sentiment

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Participate like he does? I don't have $1,000,000.00 to "BUY" my candidate of choice. Make no mistake about it; Bill Mahr IS part of the 1%!! Don't be lead astray, if your goal is to take money out of politics. His action only legitimizes that money CAN buy government.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

They get you by the balls

[-] 1 points by TheTrollSlayer (347) from Kingsport, TN 2 years ago

I have to agree myself. But that also means educating alot of democrats what kind of leadership they really got and demanding change.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 2 points by TheTrollSlayer (347) from Kingsport, TN 2 years ago

Wonder if occupy would be interested in trying this, would get my vote if they did, damn sure wouldnt go the other way

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think the majority of those n power are interested in new meeting processes, and trying to disrupt the system, not working within it.

There's really no short cut to success in American politics, well there's "money", but OWS tied its money up in a 501c3. What OWS needs is a plan to inform voters about politicians' voting records.

This is a democratic republic, wherein we get the government we deserve. Voter apathy has given us our problems. To improve things, we need to inform voters.

[-] 1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

United States Penitentiary, Terre Haute, the location of the federal death row for men and the federal execution chamber: Where these RepubliCons belong for Treason.

[-] 1 points by OldCrow (22) 2 years ago

Bill Maher doesn't want you to "participate" he wants to get you to be a Democrat Party (and specifically, Obama) shill like he, Maddow and Schultz are. They are all professional Democrat/Obama boosters. That would be O.K. if Obama really wasn't a Republican, but he is. As he gets older I can easily see Maher going conservative. He used to date Ann Coulter and that doesn't seem surprising to me at all. He's the flip side of her right now but coins flip easily.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

First, Maher doesn't date anyone. He did have sex with Ann Coulter, but I don't think fucking a thin blonde makes you a bad person.

He never said vote democratic. He said get involved and get off the sidelines. Vote 3rd party, create your own party PARTICIPATE in any way in our election process!

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

I absolutely agree with Bill Maher on this one. If we don't show power politically we show we have no power.

Im not even saying we have to be conventional about getting involved in the political process. Hell we should run Occupy candidates across this country. And every Occupy candidate should run on the platform of not taking any outside money and only taking public money. And a platform of pointing out the corruption of our political system and how we should end the bribery and corruption and return the government to the people.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

A NEED to elected representatives as the local, state and national levels has been ignored by OWS. In fact, everything they are opposes the very noting of "representative government".

We can only HOPE that OWS will become an active player in the game, rather than sitting outside trying to come up with a new process in which to get nothing done.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

How about some issues that relate directly to the inequity that the 99% suffer under? Should that be part of the agenda?

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

Absolutely it should.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Then I would want to see: Higher taxes on the wealthy, could be a Buffett tax thing, certainly ending the Bush tax cuts for over 250K inc. Social security payroll deductions limit should be lifted, the ss deductions should be miniscule for the lowest income. Limit the interest on cr cards. 19 %is too high. Banks should be made to forgive at least half the cr card debt ofmiddle class workers who have been paying exhorbitant, loan shark level interest rates. Penalize offshoring, reward onshoring. Green tech jobs and industry investment, end subsidies for fossil fuel and sugar. And other issues I'll post later.

[-] 1 points by Endgame (535) 2 years ago

I like everything you just laid out. Great platform

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[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

SSDD. Bill Maher is Obama's media hack, and has even paid for the "privilage."

"Participating?" Does that mean stroking a check for a million bucks for Obama's re-election campaign? I think Maher's smoking more, but enjoying it less. He just doesn't get it. Money has clouded the man's judgement and ability to critically analyze. He needs to march and pick up a sign instead of signing million dollar checks.

Put your ass in the street, Maher. Then come back and tell me about "camping."

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

If you'd have watched the video he describes "participating" as canvasing neighborhoods, passing out campaign literature, door to door, helping good representatives get elected.

Maher both marches and camped out with OWS, but believes it is wasting time and energy by "camping".

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

water

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[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Wake up. This is not the 60's. If you try to fight back like our parents did in the 60's we will fail like our parents. I don't agree with bill Maher either. Our whole system/government is dysfunctional. We need a smarter, better way to fight back. Camping out is just plain silly.

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM

U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( http://revolution2.osixs.org )

Non U.S. Citizens Read “Common Sense 3.2” at ( http://SaveTheWorldNow.osixs.org )

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

We need a new set of voters, who take greater care to make good decisions.

Try this out: http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action.html

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I'll say it again. What he is calling for is the destruction of the OWS movement by joining with the democrats. The democratic party is the graveyard of social movements. Just look at the state the labor movement is in after joining with the democrats.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Make the democratic party more OWS-ie...

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The labor movement was doing pretty fine with the Democrats for a couple of decades. As an old timer I look back on some s=aspects of life as it was in the days of the "tax and spend Democrats" with nostalgia.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-talking-about-the-good-old-days-for-good-reason/

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I'll second that.

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[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Bill Maher is an asshole.

And here is one of the reasons why - http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/04/maher-to-leftover-occupy-movement-douchebags-get-a-job/

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

He is quoted as saying: "I find myself ALMOST agreeing with Newt Gingrich," and the 'key' word there is "ALMOST". I think even if he was being harsh, the point therein is that OWS needs to do more than "occupy" public spaces.

We need purposeful solutions, marches that deliver a message while making the world a better place.

OWS needs to DO something, help get good elected officials into office...

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Yah yah I remember you from a while ago, always saying OWS had no purpose. I'm sure you're trying to mean well, but I disagree with your analysis on OWS as well as disagree with Maher for his asshole comments.

I'm just going to copy and paste Jart's comment

OWS has participated in the political process in many respects. But we've always done it as a political pressure group rather than as a group campaigning to elect politicians. Like remember when we took down this website to protest the SOPA bill? Or when we had protests across the country to fight the NDAA? Or the incredible awareness we raised about ALEC which contributed to it losing legitimacy and members leaving? The list goes on, so it's not fair for Maher to say all we did was camp in a park.

But keep in mind this doesn't mean we agree with electoral politics, because we obviously don't.

What Occupy Sandy is doing for hurricane victims is also incredible. That is how you grow grass roots.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

GR8 comment.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I never said it had no purpose...I said it needed direction, a unified message, and above all "accountable leadership"...

Be MORE than a political pressure group...help get congressmen elected.

*AGREED the outreach programs are AWESOME! BIG PROPS!

[-] 0 points by WageSlave (117) 2 years ago

I think Maher is right. As for the dilemma of dismantling the system vs. working within it -- they don't necessarily have to be in conflict. Work within the system to facilitate a transition to something else.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Agreed, but that requires "working within the system", which OWS doesn't believe in.

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[-] 0 points by Wayhey (6) from Hamilton, ON 2 years ago

Don't waste your time with the "political process". If voting ever changed anything, it would be illegal. "Fill the streets, not the parks", is the message.

Occupy the End of The World Global Walk-out 12/21/21

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

General strikes, now there's a novel idea. RUN with it.

[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Bill Maher, seriously? I'd rather hear something from Sparticus himself; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kirk-douglas/we-are-spartacus_b_1588173.html

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[-] 0 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Bill, stick to comedy and ganja. Maybe Occupy just doesn't suit you.

[-] 0 points by boxersanteros500 (-3) 2 years ago

God Is Holy So Be Holy

[-] 0 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

If you agree with Bill Maher on this point, who apparently doesn't understand the occupy movement, then go and join the democratic party. We're not going to become the foot soldiers for a slightly more moderate version of authoritarianism.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

No, you'll just continue naval gazing... Send me an update when you find or actually do something interesting.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Good luck with massaging the testicles of the two party system (hope it works out for you) ... but some of think we've been fucked enough (without even the decency of a reach around). Fool us once shame on you, fool us twice (or three times, four times . . . etc.) shame on us :)

I just peeked at your blog btw, I'm glad you're aware of events like the "Triangle Waist Factory Fire" ... but in my view, the democrats have essentially abandoned labor unions?

I mean, you're entitled to support whomever you wish, I'm supporting the Green Party, but if you think OWS was formed as a democratic party campaign machine (or any party for that matter), I have to wonder where the hell you got this impression from?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Vote 3rd party.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Yes, as I said, I'm voting Green Party.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6587) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Spot on.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

That's great advice you gave him.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Hey, one can be a democrat & support OWS, but they shouldn't berate us for being jaded by a political system that is nothing more than a giant cesspool of shit. I'd like to think the democrats support the people, but I'm just not that naive. I mean, sure, they talk the talk, but talk is cheap (and I simply think that true intentions are judged by actions, not empty rhetoric). Moreover, the best we can hope for from democrats is more top down, statist solutions (and this was true even under the best of circumstances, before they were corrupted by money).

I mean, we either like participatory democracy or we don't, and democrats do not support participatory democracy (they support centralized control, the antithesis of true democracy).

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Time to walk the walk or just take a walk and make room for someone who really wants to work. No more lip service.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Meaning? This is not a democratic party proxy, and if you think it is (and those who don't support you're enthusiasm for more screwing by our political system should get lost), then you're just deluding yourself. I'll make it clear (so there's no misunderstanding), I'm not voting for a democrat or republican, they couldn't pay me enough, I'm voting Green Party, I actually get off my couch and participate in protests, I believe in occupy wall street (and support it with my money and my feet), and I'm not trying to abuse this forum as my podium for partisan political bullshit.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Time for those in office who say they are for the people to walk the walk or take a hike and let someone who is ready to work get to it.

Clearer?

This also will not happen without the people getting involved and staying involved.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Involved with what exactly? I'm involved, I've marched in protests (what about you). I'm not solely an internet warrior, beating the drums from the comfort of my living room, my feet have been on the street (and they will be again). But as far as voting, I see no hope in it, but I'm voting Green Party anyway (because at least they seem decent).

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Ahhemm no slight on you was intended - it was a statement of dissatisfaction with those in office who talk about serving the people.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well then my apologies, but it did come across that way.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I mean, sure, they talk the talk, but talk is cheap (and I simply think that true intentions are judged by actions, not empty rhetoric).

You were talking about politicians - Right?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Yes of course ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This also will not happen without the people getting involved and staying involved.

What is wrong with this part then?

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Nothing, like I said, I'm supporting the greens (so I do intend to vote for someone). If people want to support democrats that's their prerogative (I'm just not joining that parade). I did support the dems for a while, but I've had enough of their shit. If they have to be pushed to do the right thing, then they're shit bags by nature (and I'd rather replace them with decent people). In other words, I see no imperative to support either political party (for which there's only a slight modicum of distinction). Even if there's any truth in the "lesser of two evils" thing, a lesser evil is still an evil.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Who mentioned democrats?

I myself am non-partisan.

I am for any one who is for the people - health - and prosperity - for - ALL.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I couldn't agree with you more francis. In my opinion people should vote for anyone they want, if they want. Just put on your street clothes when you come here. This is a noble movement, and it should not be polluted by partisan politics of any sort.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well, I agree, but it depends on what you mean exactly? I think people should speak freely, but at the same time, I don't think we'd want professional partisan operator types deliberately derailing discussions (but given all the overlap, even though it's hostile overlap, it's hard to see how politics gets cut out of the discussion).

[-] 1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

It's the near constant promotion of partisan politics that bothers me. This should be more a place of collaboration, and support for the people out in the streets. Once this becomes political where we align ourselves with one of the parties and not a protest organization, we are finished. We have to stay outside the system for now, and the forseeable future.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks. It is yet another discouraging example of how Obama talks out of the two sides of his mouth. I feel like such a dupe for not only voting for him, but attending his inauguration as well on that cold January day. This makes me realize more than ever what a monumental struggle we are in.

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Let me tell you something that shit in Europe isnt going to get any better. The whole goddamn thing is gonna go tits up and then before you know it we will be in a world wide depression and then things are gonna get real goddamn interesting.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Although i am an optimist for the most part, I agree that things will get worse before they get better. And that will be the impetus that brings the sea change. I do hope that we are both wrong though.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

That will be the best time for us to grow in numbers. Prehaps we should be taking lessons from the Greeks on this.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes we could. We could start taking lessons from the Quebecers now, though. I'm just waiting for more people to wake up.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I tell ya we get unemployment like spain has and we are gonna see alot of people with there eyes wide open and awake

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yep, there will be no siestas then for sure.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Yeah, I guess, but I haven't exactly been a partisan advocate since I joined this thing (late last year). I took a look at the GP web site & I was impressed by its platform (so I thought I'd share, if for no other reason, just to share information). I do think if we're going to oppose the way things are (in an intelligible way), we should be as informed as possible.

I've been as much against the partisanship here as anyone, but my initial post was purely informative (I simply listed some bullet points from the GP platform, didn't even render my personal opinion as to its merits). Eventually (as happens I guess) the discussion sort of grew its own legs (and I wound up defending the platform on the basis of its similarity with OWS principles).

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes i know that you have not been a propenent of partisan politics, and I appreciate that. I still have not read that thread, as I do nt have as much time here in AK because of family obligations...well not really obligations, but i will read it. As long as the GP has not been corrupted by the present system, and it adheres to most of OWS principles, i too would be interested in it. Rather than being co-opted by a party, it may be advantageous to co-opt them. Still though our main focus has to be educating people to the corrupt dynamics in place today, and being out in the streets.

[-] -1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Bingo.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Excuse me, but as far as I know there aren't too many occupations with campers left BECAUSE OUR GOVERNMENT DISMANTLED THEM ALL!

So, WTF is he talking about? WORK WITHIN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM that doesn't allow peaceful protest? Screw that. Leave that to other groups. Maher obviously doesn't understand this movement. He's no different than any other MSM drone.

[-] 3 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

As contradictory as it may seem, there is no real contradiction in participating in electoral struggles and doing direct actions and street protests and organizing in workplaces schools and communities. If you think that it won't matter if Romney gets elected and the Tea Party takes over Congress you're confused. It would be a great day if Billionaires like the legendary Koch brothers and Adelson got set back and lose momentum. That does not negate the need for Occupy or something like Occupy and it doesn't negate the need for a revolution.

[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

There is no reason that OWS has to be a part of that. There are plenty of other "progressive" groups that have been failing miserably at it and who can challenge themselves to do better. Leave Occupy out of it. Occupy is the group seeking the biggest watershed change, pushing the envelope the farthest this country has ever seen, and it needs to stay that way.

[-] 2 points by flip (6814) 2 years ago

keep in mind that when women got the right to vote it was supposed to end war - emma goldman was right!

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

when women got there vote, it was heralded in the language of war

that War for democracy in against Germany made no sense when we do not have a democracy of on own

when in reality, War makes no sense

[+] -4 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Very good point, flip.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I'm not advocating for Occupy to join the Democrats or even to launch a third electoral party. I wouldn't want the people who organize events like May Day to get sidetracked into electioneering. Individuals though should look at the situation for what it is. It doesn't take that much time or effort to register and vote and then go out and rise some righteous hell no matter who wins the vote.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

I totally agree with you. I would be the last person to ever tell someone not to vote. Voting is our right as individuals and all should do it, but with regard to Occupy, I think it should remain separate from the current political machine.

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[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I have lost a lot of respect for him.

[-] 2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Me too. I just don't think he's that funny anymore.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I just don't think Maher knows what he is talking about.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

He's supposed to be such an iconoclast. I'm just not seeing it.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes he definitely exposed himself with that stupid routine.

[-] 2 points by Hanssen (36) 2 years ago

Absolutement!! Agreed! I used to respect him once, but have come to understand he is in the know and is a big MSM puppet using controlled opposition.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Seems like it. Sad for him.

[-] 4 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

It's sad to see your very true comments down voted here....

Excuse me, but as far as I know there aren't too many occupations with campers left BECAUSE OUR GOVERNMENT DISMANTLED THEM ALL!

Let me quote them again... in bold.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Enemies of OW and its goals run rampant on this forum. I just gave you an upvote BTW.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Thanks, geo. LOL! For a movement that's so off the mark it sure still attracts a lot of trolls. I, for one, will never pay attention to a single thing Maher ever says again.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Yup, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put together that dead movements aren't worth trolling by the opposition.

One's merit can be judged by the opposition he attracts.... I still see that truly worthy opponents are lacking, despite the number of them here. Maybe I'm over estimating the opposition.

[-] 2 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

They're all on Huff Post. That's where the money is.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I've seen hyperbole on Huff claims of 10 year imprisonment for federal protesting on no trespass ground. when the punishment is 1 year if trhe protest is not violent

[-] 1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

Huff is a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to post there.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Most of them are just interested in taking the movement down. There are only a few who are truly skeptics looking to discuss issues.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

That would explain it.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

They are dogged determined but not really the sharpest knifes in the drawer. But then there are the more subtle attackers that try to appear that they support the movements against greed corruption and crime - while they spew subtle thought poisons.

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I find the latter harder to deal with. By doing so they up their points and gain more confidence, and then throw the monkey wrench in. So I have to decide, if I am actually attacking an OWS brother by responding to this stupid comment, or am I facing a clever troll?

In the end I guess it doesn't matter. To not post and set the record straight would be the worst thing to do, other member or not.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Stick with your principles - don't call someone out until you are sure of what is going on - in the meantime it does not hurt you to share true thought opinion truths. People can read what is written and then weigh the benefit or detriment. People have to learn to be aware and that is a growing & learning experience.

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[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The problem is that OWS doesn't understand how political change works in a democratic republic.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I guess neither did the Womens Right to Vote movement or the Civil Rights movement, or antiwar movement of the Vietnam War era.... or maybe the Prohibitionists...

One of the most famous members of the Women's Christian Temperance Union was Carry Nation. Born Carry Amelia Moore Nation, she adopted the name 'Carry A. Nation' mainly for its value as a slogan and had it registered as a trademark. She is best remembered for entering saloons and using a hatchet to smash and destroy bars and their contents. She was never prosecuted for it.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Each one of those movements ended with legislators who were elected creating laws that ensured rights would be delivered.

Politicians make law. Slogans get them elected.

Support representatives who agree with your principles.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Each one of those movements put extreme pressure on the powers that be through civil disobedience. No politician is going to vote on an issue that does not favor him directly unless he is forced to. Nothing scares politicians more than people in the streets and civil unrest.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think you are wrong.

The ONLY thing that scares politicians, is a majority of voters voting for their opponent. Civil unrest accomplishes very little politically, somewhere democracy already exists..

ELECTED Tea Party Representatives on the other hand, got to directly affect legislation and are still doing so right now.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

We shall see.

Bravo for the Tea Party. The membership when polled identifies itself with the GOP and are just slightly more conservative then mainstream GOP anyway. They run under the GOP ticket. No fear of being co-opted because there is nothing to co-opt. They will accomplish nothing more than what conservatives have already done, financial ruin on the Federal level.

Sorry, I'm not interested in the Dems or GOP.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Support Green Party Candidates running as Democrats, or just run as a Green Party Candidate yourself.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Nah. I don't think so.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Carry on, naval gazer...

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Naval gazer? Because I don't agree with you? LMFAO!

See ya in the streets Tex. It's going to be a long summer.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Just DO something, find a candidate to support, and elected a good representative...or sit there and continue to look at your belly button, the choice is yours.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Are you trying hard to be a stereotypical Texan? Black and white, yes/no, 0/1` choices? Either your way or the highway because you think you've got the fucking answer Tex?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

If enough progressives stay home won't that help the right wing who created this situation? Isn't that what the 1% wants? can't we protest in the streets, and rebuild the country from the ground up while also taking 20 minutes a year to keep the right wing from gaining more power.? Can't we then pressure dems to vote progressively while we build that new country from the ground up, horizontally, on anarchist principles with consensus from the masses.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Thats not the point KoA was making. For him the political option is the only option and this is what he is pushing on everyone. If you don't back a candidate you are a 'navel gazer' in his terms. Ineffective.

If only given the choice between partaking in a corrupt political system or being a navel gazer, I'll be the navel gazer. In reality we need both approaches, but Tex can see only in black and white.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I can see your point about KoA. I am always annoying people to support OWS, come to protests and such. I also believe while we rebuild the country we can't ignore our political process. It is corrupt. Dems have betrayed the left and caved in to right wing policies. But we have to try to stem the tide of right wing progress or they will crush our revolution. And we may get some progressive change through this corrupt congress while we rebuild.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

You can be involved or not...the choice is yours.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"Be the change you seek, become the example."

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Involved with political corruption, no thanks again, I'll pass. A Green Candidate has a snowballs chance in hell of making a dent in the system. Reality check, you're not going to change the system from the inside.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You are wrong.

Over half the tea voted for the debt increase.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

We'll see if they are re-elected.

The point here is that THEY are making or at least getting a real vote on actual legislation.

OWS has no voice within congress, and appears to have no interest in the current political process.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

They "feel" like they are getting a say, but since they did their thing, nothing has changed. Show me some big spending cuts. There arent any.

They are getting played. The Right scooped them up, and is straight up playing them, trying to keep them from doing their own party thing, because that would be devasstating to how DC works.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Congressional votes 'count'...much more so that a citizen's. I am certainly not here to herald Tea Party accomplishments, but if you'll take a look at the congressional record, you'll see they voted their convictions votesmart.org . And isn't that all a constituent can ask for?

So, to OWS:

Start supporting progressive liberal democrats, for elected office.

Make a difference.

Please.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't think an actual revolutionary would have his own show on national TV. As jart pointed out OW actually did impact the system's politics, just not in the usual way. So did Malcolm and Martin Luther King.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

He's an MSM guy. He's made that clear.

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Yeah, so why are people here so interested in listening to his advice for Occupy!? He's at best a corporate liberal who is against the goal of Occupy which is to have a global revolution.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20917) 2 years ago

Good question.

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[-] -1 points by stevebol (1269) from Milwaukee, WI 2 years ago

did he say he smoked some weed while he camped out? A bit disingenuous maybe?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wouldn't be AT ALL surprised if Maher brought his own sack to the camp site.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Signed and added my thoughts to the letter.

Shift the subsidies, create jobs in new industry. Health and prosperity for all. End fossil fuel strife.

Green Tech.

This is where we should be going: Green Energy we have the technology we just need to use it. This is what I am talking about. A clean future to be implemented NOW!

http://www.hopewellproject.org/

http://ecat.com/

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/all/1

FuelCell Energy http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/progress_alerts.cfm/pa_id=600

You have got to watch this vid: The liquid Metal Battery - another piece to the puzzle.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.html

Additional Liquid Metal Battery links.

http://lmbcorporation.com/

http://lmbcorporation.com/files/flyerFinal.pdf

And then export peace.

[+] -4 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

You at least have that right.

If we did all this just to keep doing all this, the King-Cons will cum in their pants! Don't make the King-Cons cum in their pants!

Our participation ~ direct or encouraged ~ in the electoral process is how we realize the solutions and remedies to the problems ~ Class Warfare ~ we protest. Occupy the wake-up, then Occupy the election!!

The Bill Maher clip is getting traction, thank GOD! We have to put the rosy bubble behind us. We have to stop the Cons!

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/07/26/republican-hostage-taking-or-i-thought-we-dont-negotiate-with-terrorists/

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28278) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I was talking to one of the other guy's earlier. We thought that it might make sense to reach out to political groups to unite on issues. Have them include in their campaigns things that need to be addressed. Let them also spread the word and get their people thinking.

[-] -2 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

It's nice to hear that. Unity wins. Finding that it still remains news to some is really phenomenal. With the decades of mind-fucking the RW has practiced, is it any wonder Manchurian semantic triggers and benign prejudices betray our minds, even our better angels, in their favor.

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

If we did all this just to keep doing all this, the King-Cons will cum in their pants! Don't make the King-Cons cum in their pants!

Our participation ~ direct or encouraged ~ in the electoral process is how we realize the solutions and remedies to the problems ~ Class Warfare ~ we protest. Occupy the wake-up, then Occupy the election!!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+5...

[-] -3 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Thanx, but my saying this has drawn a lot of fire... unfortunately, I suspect some from our side.

Thunder just beat the Heat!!!! They beat my Lakers and your Spurs (my #2), they better kick snobby Heat ass!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Screw'em!

[-] 1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

The rabble or the Heat?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

No comment, I am Mavs fan.

[-] 1 points by JS93 (-321) 2 years ago

Anybody but the Celtics or the Heat!!

But, where the hell did the Thunder come from??

[-] -3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Where's the Need for Election Holiday Bill?

Why wasn't it mentioned ?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

and my labor day card

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

we have two elections a year in CA

maybe Labor day could be move to an election day

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

day could be giants

[-] 0 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Sometimes you are not funny. I just gave you another down vote (not that it matters).

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

thanks

it keeps this at the bottom of the thread


Community Choice

Get Out of Job to Vote

This card entitles respect for democracy


[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

If this was a democracy we lived in, I'd be right there voting.... but its not, its a representative republic that has mutated to a soft tyranny. I think Corporatocracy actually describes it better.

[-] 3 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Its flatout facisim if that TPP trade deal gets passed.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

true, with other countries calling the shots on our internal standards. Now if that doesn't qualify as a treasonous act.....

[-] 2 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Its not even the countries its corporations. The deal gives corporations free reign.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Understood, completely. Japan is Nissan, Honda, Mitsubishi, etc.... Globalization must end.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if such is the case,

let's have a holiday for people to consider their vote

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

I'm not against that.