Forum Post: Follow all drone strikes on Twitter! Huh? Kill List rules? March against drones strikes?
Posted 11 years ago on Oct. 7, 2012, 4:59 p.m. EST by VQkag2
(16478)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://boingboing.net/2012/12/13/dronestream-twitter-account-t.html
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/kill-list-rule-book-190528285--election.html
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/09/drones
Kevin Drum
Our Bipartisan Apathy Toward Civilian Drone Deaths
Wed Sep. 26, 2012 2:06 PM PDT
On Monday night I read a couple of news articles about a new study of drone warfare in Pakistan, but I couldn't find the report itself, which was apparently still embargoed at the time. For that reason I held off on blogging about it. However, Glenn Greenwald reminded me about this today, so I went looking again. And here it is. Here are the raw numbers for the total number of strikes and estimated civilian casualties:
At the time of this writing, the US is believed to have conducted 344 total strikes in Pakistan, 52 between June 17, 2004 and January 2, 2009 (under President Bush), and 292 strikes between January 23, 2009 and September 2, 2012 (under President Obama).
The Long War Journal, a project run by the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, claims that 138 civilians have been killed between 2006 and the present....New America Foundation’s Year of the Drone project—the most widely cited in the US of the three strike-tracking sources—currently estimates that 152 to 191 civilians have been killed by drones since 2004....TBIJ estimated that between 482 and 849 civilians have been killed by drones in Pakistan since 2004.
So the number of drone strikes has increased from about 11 per year under Bush to about 80 per year under Obama. The chart below, which I cobbled together from three pages of the report (trying to keep the scale approximately the same for all three years), shows the number of drone strikes and the minimum number of casualties they've caused since 2010:
It appears that drone activity has declined in 2012, although that may be an artifact of the time it takes to gather data. Aside from the raw numbers, though, Glenn draws particular attention to this passage from the report:
The US practice of striking one area multiple times, and evidence that it has killed rescuers, makes both community members and humanitarian workers afraid or unwilling to assist injured victims. Some community members shy away from gathering in groups, including important tribal dispute-resolution bodies, out of fear that they may attract the attention of drone operators. Some parents choose to keep their children home, and children injured or traumatized by strikes have dropped out of school. Waziris told our researchers that the strikes have undermined cultural and religious practices related to burial, and made family members afraid to attend funerals.
Glenn comments: "In the hierarchy of war crimes, deliberately targeting rescuers and funerals — so that aid workers are petrified to treat the wounded and family members are intimidated out of mourning their loved ones — ranks rather high, to put that mildly. Indeed, the US itself has long maintained that such 'secondary strikes' are a prime hallmark of some of the world's most despised terrorist groups."
There's no question that fighting a counterinsurgency is hard. And it's fundamentally different from fighting a conventional war because it's difficult to separate militants from civilians — something that insurgents explicitly count on. But even if you accept drone strikes as a legitimate part of counterinsurgency, and even if you accept that civilian casualties are an inevitable part of that, "double tap" strikes are simply heinous. They're also far more likely to turn the indigenous population against you, which makes them counterproductive as well as immoral. After all, it's not as if top al-Qaeda leaders are the ones likely to be conducting rescue operations. At best, you might get a few foot soldiers but nothing more.
The most depressing part of all this is that you can't just blame this on one guy, and hope that it might change once he's out of office. Bush started it, and Obama has ramped it up. What's more, there's no partisan pushback at all. To repeat something I said last year, Republicans are in favor of anything that kills more bad guys, regardless of collateral damage, and Democrats are unwilling to make trouble for a president of their own party. Put those two things together, and drones have become stealth weapons both politically and technologically. Everybody is in favor of them.
Great links - thank you VQkag2
Have we become so complacent in this country that we can't be bothered to recognize this horror.
What goes around comes around - We must not tolerate these actions.
So much yet to be done. UFPJ has stayed active against war issues. This forum is pretty much on the right side of the issue but the activism on the street should be greater.
That is where our greatest power is.
I admire your compassion and your communication skills. Keep up the good work!
War is over! If you want it.
Every day people ended the Viet Nam War by protesting. Later we learned and the government admitted that U.S. Naval forces were NEVER fired upon in the Gulf of Tonkin, the incident which launched the war. In other words the Viet Nam War began as a result of a "false flag incident."
War is the most profitable endeavor on earth for the few at the expense of the many.
agreed. We must protest all war! End the afghan war now! End drone strikes now!
Denounce all fear mongering 'war on terror' propaganda.
Replace conservative war mongers w/ progressive anti war pols
[Removed]
Follow drone strikes on twitter
http://boingboing.net/2012/12/13/dronestream-twitter-account-t.html
And protest all pols to stop these murderous actions. And identify, denounce, the fear mongering, propaganda used to garner support amongst the American people.
March against drones: Okay, what about FOR the constitution, which is against all of that and a lot more.
Why would you suggest anyones marching be worth only a fraction of what it could be?
I been site searching this forum for months now, and the people that are promoting article 5 of the constitution are the only ones with an actual plan that the people can institute.
IF you oppose drones here and there; war, corruption, pollution, THEN you are an advocate for an article 5 convention; or; you're ignorant, deceived, or really don't care.
Wow "you're ignorant, deceived, or really don't care"? Personally attacking me simply shows how vacant your argument is.
I can support a different course,a different tactic, a different approach and not be ignorant,deceived or not care.
You're way is not the only way. If that's what you think you can just keep it to your self. As a progressive I am naturally tolerant and open minded. I don;t attack people simply because they disagree with me.
Are you a conservative? That seems like their intolerant .method of dealing with differences.
So in 2 months you haven't listed them? Must not be effective.
"I can support a different course,a different tactic, a different approach and not be ignorant,deceived or not care."
Not even one that has the needed power.
Congrats to anti drone users here on the forum and alone out in the street who have been endlessly protesting drone killings. 2 successes.
1- We have forced the Government to cut drone activity in half in the last 2 years.
2- We have forced the government to release the legal logic memo (flawed) to congress.
These are small victories. We must ratchet up our efforts to force the government to stop the drone strikes. End the War on Terror.
But a thank you is in order to all who are pressuring the government to end the drone strikes.
We almost beat back repub oppposition to ndaa indef detention repeal, We are continuing to reduce Drone strikes, We still resist right wing war mongers pressure to invade Iran, Libya makes progress weekly, Syria is almost done.
I'm more concerned about domestic economic issues,but I follow, protest, petition, agitate for an end to drone strikes, rights violations, & all war still.
I was expecting "course, tactic" rather than specific demands, but I see your point. Is there any way to document the effect?
I suppose, not sure.
Be nice to show America what some unity can do.
America is seeing the unity Occupy is building, and the slow progress we are creating.
That's what I was hoping to be able to show where some authority figure acknowledges some clear victories. There does appear to be respect for the fact that some action is taken generally . I mean in the middle of it the NDAA & FISA are brought in. That's losing ground.
disgusting! we will have to protest all pols against NDAA/Fisa & initiate more court cases.
Our pols are still controlled by the 1% wall st war mongers so it is up to us to make progress on these things.
http://news.yahoo.com/pakistan-blocks-anti-us-protest-tribal-region-111812657.html
Pakistan blocks anti-US protest in tribal region
By ISHTIAQ MAHSUD | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago
TANK, Pakistan (AP) — The Pakistani military blocked a convoy carrying thousands of Pakistanis and a small contingent of U.S. anti-war activists from entering a lawless tribal region along the border with Afghanistan on Sunday to protest American drone strikes.
The group, led by cricket star turned politician Imran Khan and his political party, was turned back just miles from the border of South Waziristan. After an hour of fruitless negotiations, Khan announced that the caravan would backtrack to the city of Tank, about 15 kilometers (nine miles) away. There, he delivered a speech to the crowd of about 10,000.
Khan has harshly criticized the Pakistani government's cooperation with Washington in the fight against Islamist militants. He has been especially outspoken against U.S. drone strikes targeting militants and has argued that Islamabad's alliance with Washington is the main reason Pakistan is facing a homegrown Taliban insurgency. He has suggested before that militant activity in Pakistan's tribal areas will dissipate when the U.S. ends the war across the border in Afghanistan.
"We want to give a message to America that the more you carry out drone attacks, the more people will hate you," Khan told the crowd.
The anti-American sentiment, always high in Pakistan, was evident in the crowd that waved banners saying "Down with America," and "The friend of America is the traitor of the nation."
Pakistan's tribal regions, such as North and South Waziristan, border Afghanistan and serve as bases for militant groups such as the Taliban to stage raids across the border into Afghanistan.
The protest convoy of about 150 cars set out on Saturday from the capital Islamabad, traveled 400 kilometers (250 miles) and then stopped overnight in the city of Dera Ismail Khan. The plan for the second and final day was to travel another 120 kilometers (70 miles) to reach Kotkai in South Waziristan. But the military stopped the convoy in the town of Kawar.
Khan told the rally that they wanted to continue their journey to Kotkai, but the army said it was too late, and going inside South Waziristan at night was dangerous. Khan said he didn't want to put his supporters in danger, so he turned the rally around to Tank.
A spokesman for Khan's Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf party in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, Umar Younus, said the army stopped the convoy at a checkpoint and despite insistence by PTI leaders they would not allow the convoy to go any farther.
Regardless of whether he was able to enter the tribal region, Khan portrayed the two-day motorcade as a success.
"We have taken the voice of the people of Waziristan to the world," he said.
Thousands of supporters had turned out along the route to cheer on the convoy, which stretched about 15 kilometers (9 miles), including accompanying media. Some of those packed into the vehicles waved flags for Khan's political group and chanted: "We want peace."
Video on Pakistani media showed barricades with hundreds of police in riot gear, a sign of concerns that the motorcade would be attacked or become unruly.
Around three dozen Americans from the U.S.-based anti-war group CODEPINK joined Khan for the march. The American protesters say the U.S. drone strikes, contrary to the claims of American officials, have terrorized peaceful tribes living along the border and killed many innocent civilians — not just Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.
The convoy aimed to throw a spotlight on the drone attacks, which many Pakistanis oppose as violations of the country's sovereignty that often kill civilians. The U.S. says its drone strikes are necessary to battle militants that Pakistan has been unable or unwilling to control.
Critics denounced the rally as a piece of cheap theater designed to drum up votes for Khan's political party ahead of next year's elections.
"A made-for-TV dog and pony show that will be high on drama and low on substance will resonate with Khan's base," wrote Pakistani newspaper columnist Cyril Almeida in the English-language newspaper Dawn Sunday.
The rally was originally intended for South Waziristan, a tribal region where the Pakistani military has been battling a violent uprising by the Taliban, and factions of the Taliban threatened to attack the march. On Saturday, a statement from a Taliban faction said to be based in eastern Punjab province warned that militants would target the protesters with suicide bombings.
The main faction of the Pakistani Taliban, which is based in South Waziristan, issued a statement Friday calling Khan a "slave of the West" and saying that the militants "don't need any sympathy" from such "a secular and liberal person."
The former cricket star long had a reputation as a playboy, but in recent years he has said he has grown stronger in his Muslim faith. He also has used attacks on the U.S. drone program as a means of gaining attention and esteem in Pakistan. His popularity surged in recent years in Pakistan, where the government, led by the Pakistan People's Party of Asif Ali Zardari, has disappointed many.
In the capital of Islamabad, the U.S. Embassy warned its citizens about possible terrorist attacks Sunday in the city on key government installations and major hotels such as the Marriott and the Serena. The embassy said Pakistan's Interior Ministry had issued an alert about the threats, and urged American citizens to avoid these areas.
The U.S. government already advises its citizens to avoid non-essential travel to Pakistan, citing the threat of militant groups as well as protests such as the violent ones that shook the country earlier this month against an anti-Islam film made in the U.S.
The film has outraged Muslims around the world for its vulgar portrayal of Islam's Prophet Muhammed, and protests in Pakistan have been especially intense. About 2,000 supporters of the hardline Jamaat-e-Islami party rallied in the southern port city of Karachi Sunday against the film.
Associated Press writers Zarar Khan and Rebecca Santana in Islamabad and Adil Jawad in Karachi contributed to this report.
"The US practice of striking one area multiple times, and evidence that it has killed rescuers" is a war crime
If the drone strikes are wrong.... then they are war crimes. It was a war crime when Bush did it and it's a war crime now.
Thought this might interest you.
Follow drone strikes on twitter
http://boingboing.net/2012/12/13/dronestream-twitter-account-t.html
And protest all pols to stop these murderous actions. And identify, denounce, the fear mongering, propaganda used to garner support amongst the American people.
Help for liberals against indef Detention!
http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/budget-appropriations/269125-paul-picks-a-fight-on-indefinite-detention-for-us-citizens
It's rather too late to let you know this but there are people trying to get the anti war movement into the streets. http://www.workers.org/2012/09/30/oct-5-7-anti-war-protests-set-for-30-cities/
I have protested against the war & the drone bombings this year. (and for 3 decades) I'm simply trying to see if we have any anti war marchers here. Not many I'm afraid.
I didn't see this march here in NYC. Were you there. And of course NO msm coverage either! Except a bit on the Pakistan march.
I think the State Department "owns" the non leading leaders who set OW "foreign policy."
Wow. I don't know. The anti war movement is certainly seperate from OWS.
OWS has been focused on economic fairness/justice so I'm good with that.
The anti war movement must live on it's own.
Really? How does an issue so dubious as "Pussy Riot" fin in with what you are saying? http://pussyriott.blogspot.com/ or a mass junket to Egypt to show them what a free election ought to be? By people who have yet to say a damned word about voter suppression in the USA?
OWS has chosen a broad array of issues beyond just wall street unfairness and so forth.
Certainly OWS has taken stands on anti war I'm just saying that the anti war movement needs to be strong independently from Occupy.
Pussy Riot is important enough to me for OWS to take a stand, I'm not familiar with the Egypt, trip & I would certainly support OWS speaking out against the massive effort by repubs to suppress the vote.
So I don't know how anything fits in. I just think OWS should rightly focus on economic issues and the anti war movement can't depend on Occupy.
"the anti war movement can't depend on Occupy." That's a sad fact. And really you ought to understand what the whole "Pussy Riot" thing was about - pressing the Russian Government to rubber stamp US wishes. I know you would not support any group[ doing in a church in your neighborhood what Pussy Riot did shouting "shit shit the Lord's shit" nor what they did in a supermarket, publicly using a dead frozen chicken as a dildo. But then again maybe that's what OWS really stands for, who knows? But you're right- can't count on OWS to oppose US foreign policy.
OWS supporters frequently carry signs and protest anti war issues. I'm sure they have been to many non Occupy anti war protests.
I'm an atheist so I don't have a problem with cursing in church. The chicken dildo thing I ain't heard but I am against it.
Peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoj4IfiaNuQ
Well, I am not a churched person either but I guess I'd find it offensive if I knew that a bunch of publicity seekers had gone into my neighbor's church shouting "shit shit the Lord's shit" and putting it on youtube. I would imagine if someone or some people did this in a synagogue there would be holy hell so to speak. As for the chicken dildo yeah, they did that and a public orgy in a Moscow museum too. Start at minute 2: 14 though you really ought to give the whole thing a listen. Then ask yourself what this has to do with Wall Street. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoj4IfiaNuQ
I can appreciate that the whole issue is obscure & unrelated to what I believe our main focus should be at OWS.
I think though it is ok to take a stand, and continue on with our main focus.
Economic equity, & justice.
Well, we certainly disagree and neither of us will convince the other. IMHO Occupy enlisted itself in a State Department led attack on Russia designed to get them to be more compliant with American wishes against Iran, Syria and North Korea. OWS and you too ought to be embarrassed by this especially given the facts the actual facts of the whole Pussy Riot embroglio. But not to worry. In a year or so they'll be out of jail and be big superstars. No doubt there will be Pussy Riot Hollywood movies and concerts to attend but I don't imagine they'll be fucking any chickens in a supermarket near you.
Embarrassed that we want Iran, North Korea, & Russia to more compliant with our wishes?
Why?
Is there something wrong with our wishes?
Plenty. Refer to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya. If you are an honest State Department supporter then that's what you are. Your praise of Chavez is not consistent but then again no one has to be consistent. If OWS is a State Department tool then it represents more of a threat than a hope.
(edit) I also see inconsistency with your opposition to the drone strikes as well, but good for you you get it at least partly right.
"machine"? "program"? "answer"? don't answer"? You ain't makin any sense.
If you got something to say about an important issue I'm willing to listen, otherwise.
Peace, & Good luck to you in all your goodefforts
Great thanks. Appreciate that confirmation. It IS disturbing that OWS has been silent but We are still fighting therepub efforts so it's all good.
Oh right. The great Russian tolerant govt.
If only we were more like them.
Putin was elected by the legitimate votes of the majority of the Russian voters. You might not like this, and certain deluded westernized yankee worshippers in Moscow might have got angry about it and took their rage out on their own people with a series of gross and outlandish obscene "public performances" but Yeltsin won and the Russian people don't need to take lessons on how to run an election from Occupy Wall Street NYC which hasn't said or done one single damned thing about election fraud and voter suppression right here in NYC and in several states of the USA. Got that? Have anice day.
I haven't heard OWS support any intervention. But I do agree it is disturbing I haven't heard much about the repub efforts at voter suppression from OWS.
But I don't care so much about what they don't do. They have a difficult managing process. And I do support what they do do.
(edit) You say you haven't heard much from OWS about voter suppression in the USA. No! You haven't heard one damned thing about it from them.
OWS backed the CIA/ State Department backed and funded "uprisings" over the phony charges of election rigging in both iran and Russia. Both times fingers got burnt. Not to worry - in not much time Pussy Riot will be out of jail and in Hollywood. You'll be able to see them for ten bucks or so but you won't get to see them masturbate with dead chickens in any supermarket. That delight was for Russians only. Have a nice day.
What is holding up the jury decision.?
If the next US "human rights based" intervention into a soveriegn state gets three cheers from OWS and if OWS continues not to support the rights of black people to vote in every state in the USA I'll be pretty much decided as to what these non leaders are up to.
OWS is not a state dept tool. Nor am I. Not sure where you're gettin that from.
Good luck in all you good efforts.
IMHO the jury is still out.
Well I suppose we can't all be the same. Diversity is important. And requires toleration. Thanks for yours.
What choice do I have? ;) Somehow I must and will carry on.
Then you should not puzzle over it.
Your standpoint is odd but I don't plan on losing much sleep over it.
I like Hilary but when I think progressive I think Sen Bernie Sanders.
How you oppose drone strikes (good for that!) and also "like" Hilary (Clinton, right?) is something odd that I'd rather not puzzle over.
Yeah I don't want invasions like right wing war mangers perpetrated in Iraq, Afghan, & would pursue in Libya, Yemen, Iran.
I don't support the drone strikes but doesn't mean I think US wishes are worse than North Korea, Russia, or Iran. I believe the wishes of progressives (not right wing war mongers) should be expressed and spread across the whole planet.
You don't?
I don't get it. "Progressives" Like Hillary Clinton?
So you ask me to not answer, then you answer with insults. (Silly?)
What is silly about my responses?
I don't care if you answer me or not. It's you who say you won't answer me and here you are answering me. You don't read or look at the posts you are responding to anyhow certainly not the links.To me that's insulting. If you don't want to read the comments fine. Then don't respond by talking out of your non verbal orifice.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/world/middleeast/jihadists-receiving-most-arms-sent-to-syrian-rebels.html?_r=0
Da' Mem. No more answers from me.
That's fine. My posts to you are not for your personal attention as I figured out a while ago you are not swayed by facts. You do however post on a forum that is read by many people who come by to read and perhaps learn something, so I will continue to answer your posts, especially the really silly ones.
Oh great mother Russia.
We just have to make due with our sorry little USA.
Peace, Good luck to you in all your good efforts.
Your replies to my comments appear in inappropriate threads. Are you a machine? Don't answer, it really doesn't matter.
But didn't you ask me not to respond? And then you sent me another message. You insult me with each mew message and then say you don't care if I answer.
Then why did you say don't answer.?
Are you confused? Perhaps you should take a break.
Feel better.
OMG okay. I meant don't bother to answer my question as to whether or not you're a machine, because to me the reply has no importance. I suspect that because some of your responses seem out of place but when it's all said and done whether you are or are not a prgram is of no matter to me..
Drones killing Americans? Are these acceptable guidelines?
http://news.yahoo.com/rare-look-obama-decides-send-drones-kill-americans-031832960.html
Very well said!
Drone bombing must end.! Do you know of any marches/protests goin on against these military killings? Where?
There was one in Pakistan, but the puppet gov turned it around.
Kill list rules? STOP.!
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/kill-list-rule-book-190528285--election.html
That protest I know of (I posted another article about it in a comment above) The Pakistani govt gets a lot of money from us so they support our military activity on their soveriegn land.
The Pakistani guy leading the march will run for office (and win I think) so we need to wrap it up over there.l
I meant marches here in America.
Challenge drone policy! Protest all pols.
http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/1439/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=12212
None. By Left or Right.
Maybe if we worked to force pols to end the 'war on terror' we can get them to stop these devastating drone attacks.
http://www.nationofchange.org/drone-wars-perhaps-futile-and-criminal-still-not-campaign-issue-1349963360
Right? Is that a joke? The right might march in support of more drone bombings and invasion. Right?
Bush succeeding in making attacking a nation without cause acceptable. Obama is making the process widespread.
The article indicates that we have killed about 600 civilians since Bush began in 2004.
We have to protest against this horrible situation. Did you see the article above about todays anti drone protest in Pakistan? Including American codepink supporters!!!
Jodie and Medea are very active and do a lot of good things, although I think the full vagina costumes some of the code pink people use are a little gross :)
Yeah I think they might have left the costumes home. This was about marching against drone attacks.
The Pakistan govt supports the drone attacks, which is why the political leader running for pres organized the march.
We should be protesting here. Know of any marches?
The majority of people who are politically active are too concerned with upcoming elections to worry about killing innocent people.
We had an incredible rally last Oct 6th to mark the 10yr anniversary of the Afghan war, but support for the same this year was almost non existent.
Our anti war movement has died. Polls show we are against the afghan war and drone attacks but no one marches.
There is no incentive for our politicians to stop.
I am surprised we have begun to drone bomb less this year as the article mentions since there is no pressure to slow down let alone stop.
Why do you think we are drone bombing less this year when nobody is pressuring Pres Obama to stop?
Why would he drone bomb less?
Is Trevor doing this kinda protest?.
Put your money where your mouth is.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12081-nonviolent-protester-of-drone-wars-sentenced-to-federal-prison
You think vaginas are gross?
vaginas are good!