Forum Post: Are We Instigating Civility or Civil War?
Posted 11 years ago on Oct. 25, 2011, 7:03 p.m. EST by Jonas
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
We stand at the brink of hostility and change and we take neither - what, again, are we walking for?
I do not stand as some extravagant protagonist, seeking everyone's ultimate demise - I'm simply abetting some sort of thought processing behind everything that we, you, they are doing.
We, as a country, have stood behind the bombing of countries that have agitated far less - so why do we keep pushing? Are we seeking that inappropriate slap back in order to simply keel over and announce, "Told you so!" Yet if we are not reared, can we simply be allowed to walk and do whatever we like? Have we, in concurrence, actually placed ourselves above the law? Or, in more realistic idealism, are we simply pretending to be above the law until we are appeased just enough to settle our racing hearts and clenched fists?
Are we manipulating the government in the same way that we feel we are controlled? Giving them no choices but the ones that will aid us in our great cause to decapitate them?
Who here stands for the separation of a country over the exact thing that we are battling against? You need so much to be recognized as existentialists yet you are waging war for the sole reason of monetary value and who deserves the right to have it or control it or manipulate it. So, you'll split an entire country over money tiffs?
I'm not seeking to agitate the mass that has become, nor debase it's value - I'm simply looking for some sort of accountability for what is happening and some sort of relativistic understanding and cognitive awareness.
Your abuse of the thesaurus renders it difficult to take you very seriously.
I don't mean to be meretricious with my vocabulary. (Sorry, i had to. :P I do apologize for being abit gaudy at times, if I am. I honestly don't mean to.)
Meh, personally, I didn't find the words themselves to be too flowery, but the content is a bit melodramatic. :) That said, I'm glad Jonas spoke his mind. That's important, and not enough people do it. Keep challenging people, OP. :D
There is that. :)
No, they started the civil war, they started the caste war, they started it. we are just waking up to the fact that they started it.
I know, but aren't both parties just as justified and unjustified for their shoving? Even if we're the fuse and they're the match, it's still leading to what only fuses and matches lead to.
frankly no, because if things continue as they are civilization dies one way or the other. frankly no, because they would run us over and kill us all in any case. frankly no, because we are non violent. frankly no, because this has to happen or civilization dies. Frankly no, because peak oil was 2004, and the last half of oil is already half gone.
etc. get some perspective. we must stand up to them, because otherwise there are 20 different doomsday clocks ticking down on humanity.
I completely understand standing up to them - but realistically, aren't the ones we're truly against non-violent as well? They found a way to get what they wanted without marching, so perhaps we need to find that niche as well and burrow our way in through the same doors that they have kept in selfishness to millions.
thats ludicrous, because the game is rigged.Those doors are closed. they are not non violent, their actions cause harm and suffering for billions of people.
The game is rigged, but is an overload of the game necessary to break it entirely? Perhaps if there was a way to continue the game, but to balance it - make it equal for all players. Without destroying the game entirely and putting the development team back to work in which they will surely only make things worse in this day and age when rules are mere smudges on napkins.
There actions are nonviolent, none the less, and we follow in their footsteps with our repercussions leading to violence - if only the violence of our own. A ludicrous idea indeed, that we are responsible for our own beating, but does it not hold some weight if we are the ones pushing back? We must stand, but I can't find justification in pushing while we stand, when a simple stand is all that is necessary.
i failt osee how the overload would be our problem or fault. the game is screeching into overlowd of its own foul fatal problems, that has nothing to do with us. Nobody is asking for that to happen and in fact we are fighting to save our civilization from ruin.
The actions of the game are not non violent. people are being killed, murdered, poisoned, drugged, imprisoned, all for the caste war.
you seem to be blithering on. OWS an occupy is non violent. we aren't really even powerful enough to just stand, let alone push back. you are speaking entirely to hypotheticals that don't exist and won't.
I'm not saying it would strictly be our fault, but we cannot simply say that we'd have no fault in it, can we? Can we truly go into this with a clear conscience? Even if it is deserved, it is still happening and that happening alone should invoke some sort of moral tick, should it not?
People are being killed and hurt and that is why it is entirely important that we are careful, all sides around, and push towards a better movement of understanding and less of an exaggerated walk of faith, hoping that someone will eventually grab the reigns of this constant surge of energy.
You stand daily - that is raw power enough to overthrow entire countries. It's the forcing instead of discussing that is shared by both sides equally that needs to be settled, and I'm simply exploring the idea of us not joining the methods of the "other side" and instead outsmarting it. Muscling our way past it seems like an ultimately devastating plan.
yes, we can stand up to the war with a clear conscience. no, you aren't making any sense.
if you want to get to a path of right action, then i have proposed a non violent paradigm shift which is certainly less potentially tragic than protesting. you have not looked at those links, and you have not thought this through. you don't know what you are talking about, and asking us such questions proves you are on the other side.
They do not deserve our consideration nor do they deserve our compassion. they are the ones wh ostarted the war and we are the ones who must finish it.
if you are asking for a smarter response thats what i am asking for also, butyou have yet to put forth any such ideas for a response and are in essence arguing that there is some sort of moral or ethical problem with the response we are having. there isn't.
either get with the program, or go away. this forum is for those who are awake to stand up to the fascist corporate oligarchy. stand up with us, and quit playing games.
I'm not going to run in circles with you, i have answered your question, now either get it and stop being an accidental troll or the end result is you are unveiled as an actual troll.
Again I'm hit with this blunt raw power of a need for control and all i can think is, "isn't this precisely what the law enforcement are doing to you when you are trying to voice your opinions?"
I'm here to discuss things in a mannerly way that isn't invoking any type of anger or loss of power or debasement of values. I'm interested in the cause, but I'm not interested in walking mindlessly, so I use one of my better abilities to speak to the masses instead through forums like this. I'm only curious and cautious and I am taking everything you are saying into consideration - but don't simply threaten to title me as a troll like it's some sort of weapon, because at that point, you're better off putting on your own uniform and beating me with a nightstick.
you are trying to frame this situation as ows is starting a class war. no. the class war has been going on for since the start of our country, and has been the rich against the poor the whole time. You aretrying to tell us there is something morally or ethically wrong with what we are doing. there isn't.
i explain the situation, and you keep talking like you just didn't hear or listen.
so i know you are playing some kind of mind game.
I'm not interested in playing some kind of mind game, and telling you to stop and wake up and stop trolling is not at all comparable to the police or etc, no matter what you may say or think. I have tried to respond with clarity and answer your questions. you keep spinning and blibbering and in essence ignoring what i have said. So it is quite just to call you a troll, and quite just to point out your playing mind games. If you have any reasonable ideas for actual solutions then by all means, change the topic and start over. I'm NOT playing your "play dumb and innocent" head game. You ARE trolling. stop.
I'm not framing anything in any way. All i have in mind is that I am genuinely surprised by such harshness when I thought i was having a discussion. I never said we are starting a class war - i simply stated that a class war is starting, and there is no way we can wriggle our way out of being atleast at some fraction of a fault of it. It would appear that you are the one who is avoiding what I am saying, and not the other way around. I write in curiosity and genuine interest, not out of trying to provoke some sort of emotional reaction from you.
I'm not playing a mind game - i'm provoking thought, and if you're against provoking thought or thought processing, than you are against thinking entirely, which is definitely a large portion of necessity required for revolution.
If you intend to shut me up by calling me a troll, then you are indeed comparable to the police forces who intend to shut up by arresting. That is a similarity that is very realistic. You can't simply force your opinion out and yell about how unjust the law enforcement is for not listening and then turn and shut out the first man who tries to speak against you with his own opinions. Mine are minor and aren't infringing on you at all and still you try to deny my voice.
I'm not here to provide solutions, I don't think any of us are. We're all here to discuss openly, I'm simply taking more precautions in the discussion and trying to promote the future thinking of what our actions are leading to.
Ignore gawdawful. He clearly does not see that this movement has the potential to become violent because he must believe that every single person in it thinks and feels and responds in the exact same manner he does. Apparently one of his areas of expertise is NOT human behavior or psychology.
He has zero problem pointing the finger of blame at corporations or the rich or whomever has caused the suffering and deaths of millions of people. Yet he refuses to accept the idea that the same finger can be pointed at HIM if this movement results in the collapsing of the financial system that supports millions of innocent men, women and children all over the world and thus causes them to suffer and die from lack of food or shelter because they had no money.
By inserting his own hypothetical statements about "it was all going to come crashing down" anyway, he thinks he successfully sidesteps any guilt or remorse he might have to own otherwise. He mocks your morals and ethics while displaying he has none of his own.
What he fails to recognize is that he is not the master of the universe and thus has no control over anyone else. Like the millions of those people who end up hungry and killing each other for food etc WILL place the blame squarely on OWS (whether it belongs there or not) and will have no problem taking out their anger and fear ON OWS.
He fails to follow his own logic and accept that this hypothetical civil war might cause millions of people to hate, loathe, and seek revenge on the OWS movement and everyone in it. And that those people will feel exactly as justified as HE CURRENTLY DOES in saying "This stops NOW once and for all", and then taking very violent steps to do just that.
Would a civil war be so wrong at this point in time again?
well, it's not brain surgery, just start with an even system again:
It's time for a Million People March to WDC to take our Gov Back from Wall Street Control--here's how to do it: http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/
I'm all for accountability. That is why I think "Corporate Treason" needs to be taken seriously.
I personally dislike having a "ruling class", it doesn't bug me that they fly around in helicopters so they never have to mingle with us on a bus or subway. It doesn't bug me they live in closed and gated communities. No, this does not bug me because it's their lives to live as they please. What does bug me is that they try to enforce upon us their ideology, they think theirs is the only opinion that matters. That we who are too stupid to have clawed and scrapped our way up the financial ladder can't possibly know whats good even for ourselves. For far too long we have let people with catchy slogans and nice suits, sell us the same bullshit that keeps us mired in the status quo. This two party system where people are given only two choices to lead their country is crap. Since when is Democracy a two sided affair? Someone please post and explain to me how it makes sense that only two very old and dated parties could know the pulse of the people. Especially when the very same people who run for office are the children of those who have held office previously. Yes, I am talking about families like the Bushs'. We all know Prescott Bush was charged with treason and that he supported the Nazis, yet his son and grandson was elected to lead the free world... Does this make sense? America and much of the world has been hijacked by a very quiet and secretive "ruling class". Where things are settled and discussed internationally without our knowledge or approval... Is that Democracy? This movement means to me a call to action, political action; direct action, any kind of action its time to DO something about it. America was once a Beacon of Freedom and Hope for the poor and oppressed, now America is a Beacon of the Rich and Powerful.
I must clarify I do not say that Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. are Nazis, I merely imply that the man who had such an impact on both of their lives, that they followed in his every footsteps in politics and secret societies, must have also imparted some of his own beliefs into them as well. The Winners of War write history books and I do not want history to read that this movement died out as quickly as it started if our children are even allowed to learn history under the NWO. I believe that the rich and powerful have always looked for something that defines them from us. They look for some reason beyond luck and circumstance to explain their good fortune. I believe this to be true of most of us. We all look for what defines us and where it used to be our morals and ways of life defining us as people now your job and bank account define you as a person. We together have changed the face of this planet. It was not a singular person who rose from animal hood into the Age of Man, it was together in small communities at first that we rose up from being more than our environment dictated. I see a dark future ahead a future filled with much struggle and austerity. There is hope too in this dark world, hope that we give the world to the next generation better than when we inherited it from ours. I refuse to believe that petty in-fighting, and tribal; and racial hatreds, can hold us back. We are the 99%. We are the writers of our own destinies. We are NOT defined by what we can buy but by what we have to give as human beings. The 1% as people are not bad they live the only life they have ever known in most cases. Others have made themselves and were not given a single thing EVER and that is to be respected. Any and All who stand in the way of change so that corporations can continue to export war and destruction so they can compete for the rebuilding contract are the enemy. We were not given the option of sides in this war, we are the enemy of the rich because the constitution that says we are their equals. The rich are bored with being rich they want power over our lives. Do not let your children fight in wars and die so that rich and the wealthy can live the American dream. This movement is at a crossroads, we can squabble to each other over how long the drummers can drum, or WE can DO something about it. I say go out and confront people over this, I want to see videos of CEO's getting blasted for their ineptitude with OUR money. I want to see Rockefeller sweating his piggy little forehead off under a constant and never ending barrage of outrage at his under handed secretive shaping of society. I will not be lead into the abyss of perpetual debt the 1% would have us believe is the only and best way. America, you have stood up to the greatest powers at the time throughout history. Be it Great Britain under its inbred kings or The Great German war machine. Now it is time America to Stand up to your Greatest threat of all, one that comes from within America. The Oligarchs and elite have worked you to exhaustion and as you fall and die carrying the extra weight of the rich they profit off of you with their "Dead Peasant" insurance claims. Even in Death the ruling elite get the last laugh
I completely agree about the two party system. It's a complete mockery of humanity and generalizes an entire species of opinions that are meant to be different, to be viewed and understood and granted, not simplified and leveled with everyone else.
If this is war, we're both enemies and neither of us will truly be victors if the end result is opposition for either side. If this is to be the land of the free as it was, we have to understand that freedom is universal and when we get to that level of power in which we get to shove back, we must choose the option that only tips the boat enough to balance it evenly against the more important waves coming towards us.
Interesting perspective Jonas... would you like to write a full length article about this? Please email me at OccupyUnveiled@live.com | #OccupyUnveiled is an independent news source regarding OWS and its affiliates. Neither for nor against OWS, we seek truth where ever it may lead us.
How will this article be shared? I rarely write unless in public forum without influences building barriers.
It will be featured on OccupyUnveiled.blogspot.com and links will be posted on twitter. We are independent and we believe in representing all side of the story. If you would like to talk more, please send an email at OccupyUnveiled@live.com
I say it's civil war - but hopefully it won't be a violent war. Because we need to be clear about who has the biggest and baddest weapons here - the military.
Personally I think it's high time we broke up the country into regions or states, because there are a lot of ideological rifts within the country.
For me, this is not a conflict over 'money tiffs'. It is about freedom, it is about human rights, it is about stopping the war machine, it is about bringing the criminals in both our government and industry to justice. It is also about the absolute hypocrisy and dysfunction of our political system and our economic system. It is broken. It's all broken. Our leaders talk out of both sides of their mouth, and in the end - they do whatever the hell they want, because they're in control, they hold the power. They print funny money and throw people in jail for selling gold and silver (the Liberty dollar guy). They allow people to be thrown out of their homes while banks make record profits. And on and on....fill in the next few sentences with whatever other outrages have been accumulated over the last few minutes.
Doesn't any one notice that we are living in a world that has gone mad? Governments gone wild!!! Militarized police state tear gasses and shoots at peaceful, unarmed protestors expressing their first amendment rights. j
Get the idea? Everything is so FUBAR that really, where do we even begin??
Exactly. My need for survival surpasses all else, inevitably, and I'm only afraid that we're pushing so hard that the military will intervene, at which point we really won't have any control.
That's a distinction I hope to make in a newer thread I'll be writing soon on the topic of anger versus unjustness. IE, are you angry because you were pushed down, or do you feel like you have lost freedom and are simply trying to retrieve that lost factor of America?
It is mad, but unfortunately, it's organized madness and that is why it's still in place. People's need for control and synchronization overrides their need for "better", whatever it may be. It's a sad factor, but it's definitely at play.
No, I haven't been pushed down yet, I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones. I'm mad as hell because this is about history repeating itself in terms of robbing people of basic human rights, of freedom. You see tyranny being rolled out in every aspect of society, yet we are supposed to be the nation that is 'the most free in the world'. What a cruel joke. Everything you read/hear in the mainstream media is a lie! Almost everything that comes out of politicians' mouths is a lie! The reasons given are always false.
Perhaps this sums it up best:
The world we live in:
"Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom."
I see people right and left blaming other groups for our misfortune - the rich, the left, the right, white people, black people, young people, old, christian, muslim, and so on. Look at the real criminals! I'll give you a hint - they are the ones with all of the (government issued) guns!
They started the war.
I am glad there is a Capitol march on Saturday.... we need to direct our voices to government now... afterall, we elected them using our voting system! They need to start listening to us and we need to start talking more to them and demanding better.
"I'm not framing anything in any way. All i have in mind is that I am genuinely surprised by such harshness when I thought i was having a discussion. I never said we are starting a class war - i simply stated that a class war is starting," No, the class war started generations ago. " and there is no way we can wriggle our way out of being atleast at some fraction of a fault of it." i'm sorry, no, blaming he victims does not fly with me.
" It would appear that you are the one who is avoiding what I am saying, " no, you are attached to your pov and are trying to blame and shame and game us, and i am not buying it. "and not the other way around. I write in curiosity and genuine interest," I don't believe you, because you keep spinning and saying the same BS even after i tell you whats real. You just did it again. A class war is not starting. a class war started when our country began. " not out of trying to provoke some sort of emotional reaction from you." Again, i am an expert in assorted fields of study, and it is apparent to me that you are lying about your real intentions and playing head games.
"I'm not playing a mind game - i'm provoking thought, " there is nothing here to provoke. This is thoughtless. it is stupid, it is bland, and you are simply repeating the same tired old bs after i point out the truth.
"and if you're against provoking thought or thought processing, than you are against thinking entirely, which is definitely a large portion of necessity required for revolution."
very funny. now i know you are a troll.
"If you intend to shut me up by calling me a troll, then you are indeed comparable to the police forces who intend to shut up by arresting. That is a similarity that is very realistic. "
first, i can't shut you up. i can provide for the public an end game to your head game and let everyone know your playing mindfuck games, and that i have done.
"You can't simply force your opinion out and yell about how unjust the law enforcement is for not listening and then turn and shut out the first man who tries to speak against you with his own opinions." You don't have an opinion, you have a blame game attached to playing stupid.
" Mine are minor and aren't infringing on you at all and still you try to deny my voice." your trolling is not interesting.
"I'm not here to provide solutions, I don't think any of us are. " I am.
"We're all here to discuss openly, "
your lying. you aren't here to discuss, your here to shift blame.
"I'm simply taking more precautions in the discussion and trying to promote the future thinking of what our actions are leading to."
what are our actions leading to, then?
inobvious troll is unveiled.
it agitates me more that you continue to provoke me as a troll, which in turn, would, by definition, make you a troll.
You're eliciting an emotional response from me, of which i never intended to have. I came here for communion, not to be talked down to.
good, i am glad yo uare agitiated. you are here under false pretenses, playing a con scam game, lying about what you are really about and trying to shift blame to blame the protesters and the 99 percent for what is solely the fault of the elites. Fuck you, fuck your game, fuck your stupid playing innocent ruse, and piss off.
you did not come here for communication, because the communication offered to you was ignored and spun, and you kept saying the same stupid evil twisted BS even after you were corrected.
you deserve to be talked down to, because you are lying, and spinning, and trolling.
This isn't the first time I've simply been shoveled away instead of talked to. But, in this thread precisely, you seem to be the only one with such harsh assumptions. Everyone else is having calm and intellectual discussion about heavy topics and their repercussions. I'm really not here to do you any harm.
Again, my actions aren't leading to anything but simple thought processing. I don't have any solutions for any of this, if I did, I would just fix everything. I'm not shifting blame, i'm bringing equilibrium to the already existent game. There are always two sides to revolution, and no matter which side comes out on top, both sides are always equally to blame for it. It's a harsh truth but it's humbling, at least - something i think is definitely necessary for the stronger ones of the group, just as it is for the stronger ones of the resistance. I'm an instigator balancing equilibrium, with a heart for the people who have lost and are losing - and that is a wide spread loss. I feel for those who are rich and for those unemployed, and I only write to think and to think with others and hope that in somewhere, with or without me, our thinking produces something for a greater good, breaching the common redundancy of "who's right or wrong."
obvious troll is obvious. we are not to blame not even half for this.
this is not any kind of balancing equilibrium, its just head gaming troll noise.
you aren't just thinking, and playing innocent while you try to head game others into a conversation built on deception is not thinking.
/\ Was right. Should always listen to gawd.
"obvious troll is obvious" - isn't this a derogatory form of specifically just that? trolls? who else says such terms other than the scum found on 4chan and elsewhere?
I'm not going to argue with you whether or not I'm a troll. I'm here for intellectual discussion, not mindless accusational defense in order to refrain from simple interaction.
if you continue, which I'm entirely sure you will, please be mindful of the fact that there are others here who are talking about things that matter other than my presumed guilt and assumed purpose.
I know where you're coming from, and you may be a little right, but I don't see the harm in this. I think there are some valid concerns and questions being raised by both "trolls."
fine, play head chess with him if you have the time to waste.
< /\ was right >
There may be a hidden agenda here other than the common disruptive one, is all I'm thinking.
Your permission wasn't necessary or requested.
Thank you gawd. You have alerted us to what you call his mindgames.
Those of us who wish to continue conversing about his point have been informed and will move forward with that understanding. You don't have to find him interesting. He doesn't have to solve anything. He doesn't have to agree with you or me or anyone else.
It's quite clear a large percentage of this movement are anarchists as many of the members of the seattle riots are in senior rolls for this movement. Only time will tell if their views win out.
With such powerful numbers needing someone to follow, I'm afraid that as soon as someone strong comes into play, we'll just all cave in to whatever he demands.
Or the opposite-with so many different agendas brewing together-there is always the chance that they will fragment into different directions and take their frustration out on each other.
and then we have multiple revolutions churning, all of which will inevitably begin battling each other for dominance, and all of which will inevitably fail with so many enemies.
Exactly. There is evidence everywhere, here on this site, in the media, on facebook, on forums, blogs...everywhere, that there are socialists and communists and social justice groups and anarchists and antisemites all mixed in with the people calling themselves the 99%. None of those groups want the same things and all are hoping to move the momentum of this group towards their own goals.
If/when the time comes that the group must fragment-and it must if all do not have the same goals or the same priority lists for their common goals-then what? A peaceful handshaking, hugs and best-wishes-all-around kind of separating? Not likely.
Ooh "social justice" groups!! Fucking trolls trolling trolls. gawd was right.
Why does saying "social justice" make me a troll? Do you believe that religious zealots pushing for redistribution of wealth by force are representative of the general population?
It's Glenn Beck-ese. So is "redistribution of wealth".
Um...the words "social justice" plugged into google brings up 319,00 sites. "Redistribution of wealth" brings up more than 3 million.
I'm sure you're feeling 'beaucoup' disappointed in Occupy because it can't be understood by your ratio. It can be felt from the heart though.
I wouldn't necessarily think I was part of any ratio. I'm not necessarily disappointed, I hold humanity to no standard - it just seems like there is a lot that we are putting at stake and I'm just reassuring myself that we know what we are getting into.
There IS a lot at stake - Occupy is about regaining control over our world, taking it back from those who messed it up. Ultimately, the power of the 1% is a reflection or the materialisation of something we attribute power to within ourselves. If we change at that level, disempowering it, overruling it, the reflection ceases to exist. That's why Occupy is a leaderless movement and that's why it's such a threat to TPTB. It cannot be grasped. We're everywhere.
And that threat is substantial and real and definitely terrifying - but i think the threat that our threat will never come to realization is more terrifying. If we're everywhere, our chances of being somewhere only lower, if that makes sense.
|The only solution is global revolution (OWS slogan) - and if not, we're in deep shit for sure. I mean, I don't know more about the outcome as you or anybody, I just know that there's no choice really but to support Occupy and be part of it. The real challenge is if we're capable of change. If we're not, well, we'll know soon who will be taking control for quite some time to come. It all comes down to the choice between fear and love.
I'm looking for more choices. Other maneuvers to create friction that instigates some sort of process of change. I haven't found much, but I decided I would rather spend this time looking for other options, and whether I find something or someone else finds us, I can feel content in the fact that I tried. (Not to say everyone else doesn't try - this is simply my way of feeling involved, that's all.)
Sure, I understand, that's legitimate. Maybe you should also try to get in touch with the movement of Transition Towns, if Occupy is not precisely your thing. As for me, I try to do the same thing. Although I'm fully supporting this movement, I didn't parttake in any occupying yet. It doesn't matter, as long as you try to connect and try to move forward. All of your thoughts and efforts are also part of this entire process I believe, even if you;re not a hardcore occupier yourself. It's much larger.
And what rises to the top of the power structure after that? Who rises? What if the overthrow of the rich creates the rise of the violent? Or the zealots? Or the well armed?
Those are in power right now... wake up.
Maybe I'm thinking of different "violent, well armed, zealots". Are you sure the next group "in charge" will be better?
Well, you better hang on to the criminals currently in power if you're so afraid of change. Good luck. Give them my best regards. BTW wtf are you doing on this forum then? You're wasting your time here.
I'm not afraid of change. Nor am I familiar with any of the "criminals currently in power". My question is meant to discover how far and how deep this movement has been thought out and what happens if it doesn't turn out the way you hope it will?
Are we truly ready for a revolution? What of those who aren't ready, but are forced under the head of both the law enforcement and the protestors?
I would like to see greater global consciousness among the OWS protestors, and I certainly hope that there is more to this than a bunch of angry, middle-class folks who can't stand to lose their relative privileges. I find it disturbing that the Military-Industrial-Complex or our recent forays into Africa have not received much mention.
What do you have against defense spending? It creates a ton of good jobs, both military and civilian.
The Orwellian implications in the term "defense spending" are troubling. And yes, it is a pillar of our economy, one that was built out of short-sightedness, arrogance and greed. Consumer capitalism has created tons of jobs overseas, none that any sentient human being should be forced to perform. Any true people's uprising would include the underpaid workers assembling our garbage, and it would certainly not advocate a system that encouraged even greater American consumption and the suppression of local economies and people around the globe.
Absolutely. We've got such narrow awareness and even though the problems suggested are serious in many ways, we've contorted all eyesight onto ourselves and seemingly cut off the entire world from our span of view. It is, earnestly, terrifying.
Not civil war but the begin of revolution ... the occupations are the liberty trees where everyone knows something is wrong and looking for answers and solutions. But i think we are going to need to put the police in check
I know the law enforcement is out of hand, especially in times like these. They're just terrified of the amounts of numbers we've gathered, so I share some sympathy for them - but not nearly as much as i do for the ones who are being unjustifiably beaten down. Revolutions start with revolutionaries, of which we either have millions or none, and in both situations we lose, ultimately.
yes in both situations we lose ... but law enforcement are not terrified of the amounts of numbers we've gathered ... They see them self's as military units ... but as soon as people start fighting them, not allowing them to make arrests with over whelming numbers they will stand down and retreat ... when that happens law enforcement will be much more receptive to listening to the people and not the politicians. They will start defining orders and that is when the politicians and there backers will be scared
But it is only because they are scared that we see such unprovoked violence. It comes down to simple self conscious defense; a pissing contest, if you will. I think I understand your logic though, and that is, as soon as someone is forced to make a choice, everyone will be forced to back down any sort of connection because everyone on the "other side" is entirely terrified of being the figurehead for the "other side."
If the protesters are breaking the law, or defying the orders of the police-which society has established AND PAYS FOR as it's "law enforcement" tool-then the police's job is to step in and make arrests.
If you overwhelm or provoke the force that our society depends on to protect them -you will get ZERO sympathy or support from that society in the future. History supports my assertion. In a Gallup poll taken after the Kent State shootings, 58% of those polled blamed the students and only 11% blamed the national guard. (31% had no opinion)
If you remove the police and/or military in whom this society places it's trust to protect them, you leave that society no other choice than to take up arms to protect themselves. And that's when we all need to be scared.
Americas can do better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIGTvqgw_qQ&feature=related
you haven't seen anything yet ... just wait till they cut social security
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey_4wRdLrM4&skipcontrinter=1 this women did not provoke this
A group of people DEFYING repeated police orders to get on the sidewalk-is not provoking? What is it about people who do NOT understand that you do not approach police officers who are in a heightened state of tension? I grew up on a farm for crying out loud and I know that!
You do not know what transpired between that woman and the officer, and you can't tell me that all those cell phones weren't out innocently filming the sights and landmarks of New York. They were ready because the purpose of the action was to provoke and then hope to catch police brutality on film to implicate the police. Be careful what you wish for.
you grew up on a farm ... huh ... she did not deserve to be sucker punched no matter what she said. you don't hit a women like that ... ya sure it was all to provoke police brutality... stay on the farm
That "she" was a he. Who was aided by the crowd in escaping being arrested by said officers for giving the cop an elbow to the side. Said "he" has retained a very expensive lawyer (for someone living at the local YMCA) and said lawyer is asking the NYPD not to press charges.
Please do some homework before you believe in and pass things along.
OK wow you are so in the know .... just the facts .... you got the facts ... wow i m impressed ... facts like fox ... how did you find this out ...
I went online and I read every report and every blog I could find.
"However, unlike Bologna's pepper-spraying, Cardona's punch is not currently being investigated by the NYPD's own Internal Affairs Bureau. Department spokesman Paul Browne, without specifically naming Cardona, claims that Rivera-Pitre attempted to elbow the officer. The police are seeking his arrest for attempted assault on a police officer, obstructing governmental justice, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct. Rivera-Pitre has retained famed civil rights attorney Ron Kuby, who has advised the NYPD not to charge his client with any crime. "
wow ... whatever if you grew up in NYC you might understand ...
I would hope that if I had grown up in NYC, I would have had enough exposure to the police and the laws of my state to KNOW better than to irritate the hell out of the police officers whose sworn duty it is to protect and defend the public. And that INCLUDES defending themselves from being harassed and set up by the very citizens they HAVE been protecting in the past.
If you are going to break the laws, or disregard those who have sworn to uphold those laws, then you WILL put yourself in the position of having JUSTICE practiced ON you.
This is NOT the way to "win" with this movement. It is NOT the way to gain sympathy or membership or spread positive understanding about yourselves. 15% of the population might, MIGHT side with you if you instigate a riot with the police, but historically at least 60% of the US population will side AGAINST you. And you will lose at least twice as much as you gain from from it.
The military does not police at home do you support the end of Posse Comitatus Act ... Because are politicians could not end it and have been militarizing the police ... They did do away with Habeas corpus and Obama did not bring it back like he promised. No this will be different the police will stop obeying hopefully. They will be shamed by family and friends... you might even start seeing them directly start disobeying .... Look at them they are like storm troopers this is a police state and NYC is the epicenter of police state caging people? They will start backing off to defuse tension ... In NYC once a couple cops get fucked up they will totally back off .... people are going to start getting pissed poverty does that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1UddFPWbV4
There is a viral video of an exmarine shouting down the police and OWS protesters have been trying to "recruit" the military along with the police to their cause. THAT is what I meant by removing the police and/or military-recruit them to a point of NOT doing their jobs to protect ALL the citizens of this country.
"Police officers are legally permitted to use force, and their superiors — and the public — expect them to do so, when appropriate" wiki
The "use of force continuum" is the standard that establishes how much force can be used against a person in any given situation. It usually goes something like this-
You are expressing HOPE that the police will start directly disobeying their training and their superiors, and by default, the American people who pay them to do that job. You have no right to shame anyone for doing the job they were hired and sworn to do-even if YOU personally don't like it.
YOU should be ashamed of putting the brave men and women who have sworn to protect you in a position where they have to use force to control your behavior. THEY are not the ones causing the tension, YOU are.
The OWS favorite chant is highly ironic:"Resistance is justified when people are occupied". You are the occupiers but you don't want anyone to resist you.
ya shut me up ... just the facts ... shut me up this is america this is what we fight for Bullshit
Those are the facts. We are a society of law and order. If you defy those laws, you defy the order of things and you will create chaos. THAT is not what real Americans fight for.
No real Americans go fight for the freedom of all Americans against enemies foreign or domestic ... We got the foreign part ... we are good at killing village people in the middle of nowhere I can attest to that... we shoot them up good not cause we are just following orders but to protect us and are brothers sent there
that's right and the bankers did not break any laws they just screwed everybody and that is ok cause they didn't break a law and they have enough money to elect people to write law for them and for us
You know what, the bankers did NOT break any laws. Do you know why? Because our "lawmakers" aren't doing their jobs. Our politicians can be bought and paid for-and WE elected them-so aren't we really the ones to blame if you're going to pay pass the buck?
we don't elect them it is a sham payed for by the bankers
Then FIX THE HELL voting system first.
yet you cheer for police to give up in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya ... Wierd The police are Americans that are getting screwed the same all the other Americans protesting and paying them thought taxes. "expressing HOPE that the police will start directly disobeying their training and their superiors, and by default," join the american people and not trying to turn to violence. How do you know i haven't sworn to protect you in Iraq or Afghanistan? The NYPD are very much the ones causing the tension. Have you ever heard of stop and frisk ? NYC has become a police state http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyernhYxuA
How could you possibly know whether I cheered for police to give up in Egypt or Libya or not? This is NOT any of those countries by the way.
The problem is, most revolutions involve bloodshed.
it's already happening you haven't seen the police hit people and draw blood ?
Why are people putting themselves close enough to the police that they can be hit at all?
If I walked into a bar filled with burly truck drivers and start yelling in their faces, and they beat the snot out of me, would THAT be a revolution or just stupidity on parade?
If I walked onto your front lawn and starting yelling about your neighbors, and you asked me to stay off the grass and get back on the sidewalk, and I didn't, what would you do? And if I stayed there for a month?
whatever ... you understand authority intimidating people ... if the cops where smart about it they would let it go and not antagonize pissed off people ... in fact if they where those nice neighborhood cops they would be talking to people like hey mike whats your brother up to ? but they import the police and corrupt them now. I once had a Chinese guy ask me on the subway how to get to the police academy.
The police don't get to socialize while they are on duty. They're at work, and maybe they have no desire to talk to "mike" about his brother????
Are you saying that Chinese Americans shouldn't be cops?
Well then you are for the police state
You have no idea what the definition of a police state is.
i can see it happening to America ... Tell me what a police state is then
No, you're the one saying it's happening-what do you see happening?
It's really a fine line. If people are not willing to fight for their existence, they will be opressed but if they fight, they will be arrested. This is why I still say the model of OWS should be growth. Arresting a few 100 vs. millions would prove to be difficult with the latter. Right now... for the elite, it is manageable. I know people don't want to hear it, but I cannot see the USA changing without some sort of uprising.
agree ... think it is coming ....as unemployment and poverty grow so will numbers
I'd put organization before pure numbers. I know that's been said more than anything, but there have been millions of cases of more than just our number being oppressed, and nothing they did would make a change until someone or someones took real initiative and made real proposals to instigate balanced change. An overthrowing isn't necessarily leveling the boat, and we'll be just as likely to drown once it's flipped in our favor.
there are organizations that support America ... they just need to see over whelming number on the street before they will act in a organized fashion
So, perhaps the plan then is to make enough commotion to be picked up and fathered into another organized group bent on the optimization of Americans' well-being? Then we're pinning for something that will surely come easier than we know. Millions of corporations would die for an investment like a few million people behind a cause, and they'll spend it to justify what we're looking for, but who's to say they won't spend some excess energy elsewhere, contorting their own needs? Again, we're practically working with ceaseless energy.
I'm sorry? If this is a complaint as to the amounts of thinking or processing I am doing, then I cannot apologize. I didn't come here for idle prattle.
I think organization is needed as well but anyone with any kind of voice seems to think otherwise. I'm at a loss to be honest. How can a movement with no organization/message ever be successful?
I'm consoling with you on that. Yet no one is up to such a task as organization because we've all, honestly, got too many problems for any one figurehead to lead.
They started the class war years ago. We are fighting back.
but are we right to? I understand the need and demand, and you can only be so far oppressed before standing up again - but if we're only returning the favor, how are we creating equilibrium in the economy?
Just as Mother Jones did--she raised hell!
Again, I think we need to have some sort of acute awareness that we are indeed raising hell. For everyone. Not just other people.
I hope this doesn't sound too naive, Jonas, and I don't profess to be privy to what's going on behind the scenes, But what I think the plan is, is this. In order to accomplish what is, in fact, a massive undertaking will require a multi-step process. We're only in phase one. Phase one is building up numbers. A couple thousand people will never get anything done in Washington. A couple million will. Assembling that many like-minded people will take months, maybe more. We're being attacked on many fronts, mainly MSM, so there's still a huge majority of Americans who are either unaware or grossly misinformed as to what we're really about. It's about more than money; it's about a broken system. Money's only a part of it. We've only been at this three months. The first American Revolution took seven years.
It doesn't sound naive at all - I'm glad for decent consideration. So what if, when we begin gathering numbers, it resolutely leaves all borders of control and some entirely different point is settled while many others problems are unheard? We're, realistically, working with millions and millions of amounts of combined energy that needs to be digested somewhere, and I'm genuinely surprised by how fearless many are of this possibility. If such substantial amounts of energy are being harnessed, who's to say anyone won't just reach up and grab it and lead the cause to anywhere he pleases?
The energy that is being harnessed is in spreading the awakening of the corruption of our country and ourselves by materialistic and selfish interests. The people need to regain the power of their country, but first they must regain the power of themselves to spread peace, love, and abundance. I've been working towards this for awhile now and it's nothing to fear at all, in fact it's quite exciting and hopeful. What have you done to enact this change in yourself and those around you?
I'm simply dealing with the same energy as everyone else, only mine separately barely stands for anything. I'm cautious as to where to spend it, and I'm even more cautious as to where everyone is spending theirs - and I suppose that is what worries me. The fact that everyone is going through the same thing, and the fact that, inevitably, people will make wrong decisions.
That is an important concern and definitely a possibility. I think it's one reason OWS steadfastly refuses to supply the media with anything resembling concrete demands or to elect some sort of leader or spokesperson. This ambiguity is actually on of our best weapons. The power elite and their tools like the media don't know how to deal with this. They're literally scratching their collective heads, running around in circles, trying to come up with an effective counter-attack against an enemy they cannot define. Consider the Viet Nam war. Our Generals went in figuring it was a no-brainer, just overwhelm the enemy with superior forces, the way wars had been fought since prehistory. They were totally unprepared with the incredibly effective guerrilla tactics used by the NVA. Our Generals were clueless. I don't have to tell you how that one turned out. I think, and this is just my opinion, you'll see things much more defined by next spring. Positive things are going on behind the scenes.
My only worry is that, in turn, we aren't also scratching our heads as well. It's hard to merely hope for some better cause to align us, and it's even harder to leave it in the hands of time when it's a revolution or civil war at stake.
An alignment will happen. And basically, all we can do is hope. It may come to a literal revolution. If that's the case, so be it. I'm a nonviolent man so I don't overtly condone it, but sometimes violence is the only thing people understand. We are, by nature, a violent species. I get the impression enough people in the country, and the world for that matter, are so fed up, we're not going to roll over this time. Change is a-coming. OWS plans on having a list of proposals to submit to the National General Assembly next July with the stipulation that if the demands are not met within a year of the new Presidents' election, then all top elected officials will be removed and new ones elected, all within the legal framework of the Constitution. We can't play our hand too soon before next year's election or it will give them plenty of time to mount an effective countermeasure. Patience is an asset. By the way, how long have you been involved in this?
I see. I do hope that the cause neither dies down nor grows in the way it is. I think we do need more and more numbers, yes, but the way we are provoking these numbers seems far too hostile to be contained for a few more months, let alone years. It is hard to imagine us walking for another year before change begins to take place, but it's hard to image what we could do otherwise in order to maintain our enterprise.
I've been watching and listening and reading for months, letting the information ferment and grow. I've only just recently begun writing in order to kind of reveal the minds of some of the followers and really see what's going on. I'm not really moving for any type of fight, nor am I trying to force emotional rebuttal, but that is what I'm gathering the most of, unfortunately.
There's a lot of trolls, disinformation, racists and agents provocateur on this site, and a fair amount of shit disturbers that apparently have nothing better to do than come on hear and talk trash and nonsense. It's hard to get any real info or an accurate feel of what's really going on. It's a quagmire, that's why some of the more determined members have started other sites. I've been here a little over two weeks constantly and admit when I first came here I was highly skeptical. Other sites say OWS is actually pert of the NWO master plan, others say it's a platform for the Dems. After reading literally hundreds of threads and clicking countless links to other sites I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it's not only legit but the beginning of what may be an extremely important history-making event. Next year will be telling.
It's difficult because said trolls, disinformants, racists, and agents provocateurs make it extremely difficult for earnest discussion. I find myself unnecessary attacked more often than not.
I try to read as much as I can, but it does become difficult to sift through so much dialogue, much of it being completely useless. I don't know. I do enjoy voicing my opinion, but not at the sake of being butted out of the conflicts that matter.
They do not want equilibrium. They want revenge. Retribution. Destruction. They want their turn to be the oppressors. They think that is "fair".
That's the same guilty logic that drove the intense Southern white paranoia about slave uprisings, which --aside from a few isolated incidents--never came to pass. (Haiti is a different story).
Oh please. The South wasn't worried about slave uprisings, they wanted to keep their slaves! What people SAY and what people WANT are often two different things.
You comparing Wall Street to Southern slaveholders-and thus OWS to those who bore the burden of physical enslavement-is insulting as well as illogical.
Insulted troll is insulted! (and if you think the south wasn't worried about slave uprisings, you need to read a book or three).
A provoked anger, one that is not necessarily unasked for.
Righteous anger can be justified, but self control when angry is the sign of a civilized person.
I definitely agree. There's so much at stake and people have been provoked for so long I think they're forgetting that. Perhaps civilization, or atleast civility, is worth restoring over economic balance.
"civility, is worth restoring over economic balance"
Is this your opinion?
I'm not sure. If it is actualized civility and not us bending over and others taking advantage of us - sure, I could see that as a promising future. But true civility would come with economic balance - which, I think, was the point i was getting at.
I see no way to restore economic balance WITHOUT civility. And gawd will tell you that there never has been economic balance OR real civility.
Perhaps we, as a society, are not as "civilized" as we like to pretend we are.
Are you saying we should be bombed?
Never - but I am simply provoking some sort of realization of the events that are passing.
I stand for battling for what I believe in. If that creates war, so be it.
Surely you cannot be so eager for murder?
"f that creates war, so be it." A remark worthy of an... AGENT PROVOCATEUR
Or, perhaps, just an unstable.
Or will they, when confronted with issues of their own, simply shut up?
What the feck are you on about mate?
Get to the point. All of your flowery and alliterative prose, and no substance.
I have no point - I'm posing questions to instigate thought, to converse. I'm not here to give you a twelve step guide to salvation. I'm only interested in thinking.
The two parties, fueled by the Media is instigating a civil war.
This - this I can easily agree with.
Thank you. I'm really not looking to start a war - just some sort of. recognition.
Recognition, my friend, is something that only benefits the pure in heart. And only when it comes soon enough.
The sooner the tide turns, the less devastating the impact (and subsequent reaction), and the closer to equlibrium we'll remain. A waveform with higher frequency and lower (and hopefully decreasing) amplitude...
I could definitely agree with this - but what action can we put forth into increasing frequency without also increasing our amplitude in concurrence? Without any type of direction, the only way up is up and nothing else can be mitigated in such what-looks-like mass hysteria.
Energy needs to be released from the system. I don't have a strategy in mind.
I agree. Beyond the energy of the amounting numbers, there is also the unspent energy of ages that has been simply building due to recessive tendencies and will unleash somewhere. It needs a funnel, but no one organization has provided any sort of proof that they can control such raw power.
If only there was a candidate... It's unfortunate where we fall in the election cycle. The incumbent is bought and paid for and the only options we have are regressive. Someone named Roosevelt would be nice, IMO.
Beyond that, we're a people in need of purpose/mission, but the only ones I can think of fall into wedge issue territory - i.e. a clean energy Apollo/Manhattan project, or even just rebuilding the country's infrastructure... Probably wishful thinking anyway. In the past, this sort of energy has only ever found one outlet.
True. But even organization for the organization is almost too much to ask for. Delegation would definitely be needed, and honestly, our own government might be capable of it if, and only if, we weren't our own government. Which is entirely impossible, of course.
I think our biggest problem is that we haven't really found our biggest problem.
I think the key (and many would say the purpose of the movement) to making our government equal to the tasks at hand, is simply to exist and be impossible to ignore. Eventually we'll find our candidates stepping up, willing to challenge the corrupt status quo. The question then, is, do we have that kind of time?
Mmm. Very well put.
Oh, each of us has, individually. Problem is we don't agree.
I wish everyone understood what you just said and realized how true it is.
Maybe not consciously, but I think most liberals understand it.