Forum Post: Am I a "TROLL" or am I one of you ?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 25, 2011, 9:42 p.m. EST by Rico
(3027)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I started out opposed to this movement. See http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-has-happened-to-us/ . I then came around to the idea of returning POLITICAL power to the People at http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/ . I am no trying my best to get folks to use their ECONOMIC power via the shopping guidelines we compiled in under a post here and hosted at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit where they would be widely accessible and sharable via social media ( note the page has no ads, and I receive no benefit other than the satisfaction of helping ).
I don't support the radical proposals I keep seeing in these forums, but I do support getting the money our of politics and an education campaign to get Americans to show social responsibility in their buying choices.
Am I a troll, or can I be one of you even if I don't support radicalism ?
I really think politics should be checked at the door, to some degree. If you find people of like mind in OWS, more power to you, but some people (both left and right) are trying to ram their political brand down everyone's throat and it misses the point of what OWS is. It isn't a political movement, it's a social movement. If you care about the corrupting influence of Wall Street on government and society, OWS is for you, even if you're completely apolitical. Don't feel pressured to subscribe to jack (and don't pressure others to subscribe either).
I agree, expecting a leaderless social movement to have a political sense is like expecting politicians and big bankers to have an ethical sense.
Well it can have a political sense and it obviously does. If Congress were to pass a bill enhancing the political influence of Wall Street, for instance, OWS would obviously react to that.
Good point.
That's the best definition I've seen so far ! An extra point for you ! ;o)
Seek common goals. Agree to disagree. Be willing to compromise to advance common goals. Keep the big picture in sight and don't let the little stuff derail you.
[Deleted]
I believe that any two people living or working in close proximity learn to disagree with one another without being disagreeable about it. In its simplest form: I like chocolate, you like vanilla; neither one is "right" or "wrong", but a matter of taste. When we get into opinions, however, we tend to be less accepting of others' "taste." I think we all have to eliminate the need to be right and become more objective in our approach to solutions. If I do not have to be acknowledged as right (correct, not politically) when I state my opinion, then I am open to another opinion that may be different and equally viable. I do believe that any well thought out solution to any problem can be accomplished if everyone says, "That's the way we're going; let's pull together and make it work, adjusting as we go" rather than fighting the decision because it isn't what we thought was right. Look at all the energy that has been spent in Washington doing nothing! Turn that energy to a cooperative effort to get things done, and miracles could happen.
Yep ! If only more people thought that way, I think we would get more done. I'm biased, of course, toward the "practical and realizable" ... I'm an engineer ;o)
Definitely not a troll - except when you're defending Ayn Rand, of course.
Hmmm.... maybe I have troll tendencies!
How exactly does one spot a troll anyway ?
Kind of like porn. You know it when you see it. :)
Hey, you should be in the educating the 99% thread methinks: http://occupywallst.org/forum/educating-the-99-on-what-corporate-profit-means/
...instead of leading up to some point about the ills of classifying dissenters as trolls. ;)
On it ;o)
Rico: One of our best weapon against charges of stupidity.
Wow, she capitulated on the first response !
It seems to me she didn't really think through her case very well, and neverlessless decided to call everyone else "stupid." That's really bad form.
Thank you very much for finding a good middle ground with her. That thread was depressing me and that bit of agreement rekindled faith in other people.
I consistently find that if one party in a discussion is committed to rational and respectful discourse, the other part will come along. We really need to tone down the name calling. It doesn't help either side grow their understanding. It seems to me that respectful and rational discourse is become a rarity, and I don't know how we can run a Democracy without it !
Well done.
Have you checked out "Occupy Morality"? Sigh.
Got a link handy ? I'm curious.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-morality/
That's a pretty well stated summary of Ayn Rand's Objectivism. I agree with SOME of the tenants, but I think most people over-simplify it; life is not a novel. There is, for example, some rationale self interest in supporting your fellow man and wanting him to do well. I'll engage tomorrow.
Yes you can and you are! Welcome!
Many of us think that ending "legalized bribery" of our elected representatives is the #1 goal. I will go a step further and say that if we can accomplish that, and truly have a Congress that is responsive and accountable to "we the people"... than ALL the other issues can be figured out through our Democracy.
It's really inspiring to hear about someone who opposed OWS at first but now is participating. I don't think Anyone agrees with Everything in OWS, but we can still be united on the main issue--- we need to have our Democracy back in the hands of citizens.
Thank you!
Absolutely, AND I think the return of our Democracy is an issue that UNITES all Americans rather than diving them.
P.S. Please spread the shopping guidelines we compiled from a forum post and hosted at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit where they are more accessible and sharable via social media. We need millions on board if we are to have an impact. No ads, no profit, no agenda but to help change Corporate America.
okay... i already don't really shop... especially during Jesus month!
: )
But you know lot's who do, and the guidelines are for THEM !
P.S. Kudos to you.
I've read a ton of your comments on this site, you are no troll Rico, you use your brain and think for yourself and there are certainly those who will lambaste you for doing so around here but others who appreciate it.
Thanks me2 ! My primary satisfaction comes from what I personally gain in these discussions. If I in any way contribute to helping others refine their positions, that's a bonus, and a nice one at that !
i am a radical, but i don't think you are a troll for disagreeing with me. i do welcome your ideas and working with you on yours.
I'm sensing a common refrain here. I think the "trolls" that are complaining are just those who aren't willing to engage in constructive and respectful dialog.
I believe you are correct. There are three types of irritants 1st. Those who strongly disagree with our cause and are unwilling to actually listen, but are sincere in their beliefs. 2nd. Those who agree or disagree with our cause but enjoy the power of flustering people into a flame war. 3rd Though I suspect their are also unintentional trolls, are ones who have some sort of mental issue going on, the paranoid conspiracy theory types.
I agree, and I urge folks to tray and engage the 1st group. I think I came here as one of them, and folks here have actually changed my views. I haven't turned 180 degrees, but I have turned enough to see that things just aren't as simple as I was thinking; I suffered from crowd-think, and my crowd was comprised only of people who are doing reasonably well. Talking to people from a different crowd has moderated my views, and I think others might do the same, but it takes patience.
Human being has many needs some must be fulfilled immediately like the ones needed for survival while for some one can wait but not for ever however the government does not let you to fulfill the former needs not to talk of the latter needs.the government wants people to die and at the same times wants to be appreciated for their evil choice.the governments are not meant for the people,there is no democracy anywhere in the world.
I only get cynical when I'm really down, and that doesn't happen very often. I find cynicism paralyzes me, and it's my optimism that powers me forward to try and change things even when it seems hopeless.
I am one of the OWS members! OWS does not have any official leader so I will go ahead and establish my own chapter to the movement. My Chapter will focus on how Capitalism works, and that democracy is the best option for human operated government. When I make my sign it will say that I work full-time and in my spare time volunteer time, talent and some financial contribution to charity. I will be sure to respect the laws and the individuals tasked to enforce them. I will continue to upkeep my personal hygiene by brushing my teeth a minimum of twice a day and by showering at least twice a day. I will push an agenda that boosts the idea of fullfilling the personal responsibilities and obligations that contribute to being an independant individual. Oh wait,.. none of these things will fit in with the rest of the OWS crowd. I guess I will just sit on the side line.
You might be encouraged by my own experience here and the responses I have received under this post. To my surprise, people do appear to accept me as part of the "team," even though I disagree with much of what's said. It seems the only real requirements are to acknowledge we have at least one problem that needs to be fixed and to be willing to engaged in respectful and rationale dialog (leave the name calling at home).
Well, it only takes 51% of the vote for the 99% to have it's way.
You're one of us whether you like it or not. You have a choice to help against the corruption that affects all of us but you don't have a choice of isolation from it. The more you hang around the more you will understand and the more you will support OWS. No need to be radical but they are a necessary part of the process. Just look at history Welcome aboard my friend.
Ummmm.... I'm not aboard with everything I hear here, but I do accept the fundamental premise that America is broken and needs to be fixed. I just don't like radical change; I think there are reasonable evolutionary steps we can take. From the responses here, folks seem to accept me into the fold, even though I disagree with most of the radical ideas. I think more folks need to understand this about OWS... people like me are welcome insofar as we are willing to leave the name calling at home and engage in rational and respectful debate.
My position is the same as yours. I want to fix this broken system but I don't want it overthrown. Unfortunately, they have corrupted everything from our schools to our food supply and health care. Big Pharma and Monsanto are huge concerns for me. Others may be more concerned in banking and corporate welfare. It's not hard to understand the radicals who want the whole system erased. I believe it's because they fear losing nothing and rightly so. I'm just not that courageous or maybe foolish depending on how you look at it. One thing I do know is that the more radical the change you demand the more they will bend. The propaganda fed to us today is very similar to the propaganda from the labor movement at about the beginning of the 20th century. "The Socialist are coming to steal from the middle class. They want you stuff and will overthrow capitalism!" Beware!
What came of the labor movement and those Socialist demands? The largest middle class the world has ever known that's what. The corporate written history books will tell you that free market capitalism is what created the American middle class. They conveniently forgot to tell us the other half of the story. Thank God for the radicals!!
I have been banned from countless forums and UR milk toast
Close Every Door Joseph & The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQuYlmhBhzU
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Do you consider yourself a troll? Do you think I am one, or are you saying I'm not ENOUGH of one ?
No. If you don't post hateful, inflammatory, bigoted, mean-spirited posts and have an agenda to divide people on this forum and take their focus away from the issues that needs to be discussed than I don't think you are a troll.
You don't have to agree with all of the OWS demands,but what you do agree with please join in in the discussions, share your ideas, remember you are part of the 99%. Btw, your Holiday Shopping guidelines was very good. If anyone thought that was a troll post then I would have to tell them to get their head checked. They may not agree with everything you post, but labels should not be thrown on others whose views are different than theirs. You have something that you can bring to the plate, don't let others take that a way from you.
See, that's what the "trolls" like me need to understand. I have found that people are willing to debate with me insofar as I stay to the issues and maintain respectful and rational dialog. I wonder how many ideas are lost because people present them in offensive ways that close off dialog before it even starts. I suspect respectful and rationale dialog is becoming a lost art in America, and I don;t see how we can run a Democracy without it.
Yes, being respectful of the other person's POV is key, no matter how much you disagree with them. Name calling and/or demonizing others is a very obnoxious thing to do. I wish everyone was more civil when they engage in discussion on this board. But just like any forum, you get all sorts and plenty of name calling, extremely dogmatic hot-heads. I tell you they are the worse.
Anyway, stay a part of the online discussions. You have something to bring to the plate.
A "troll" is someone who does things to purposely disrupt the forum.
A "troll" calls names, makes userids that are in themselves personal attacks on protestors/forummembers.
A "troll" pretends to be an OWS supporter and then makes posts purposely designed to make this movement look stupid.
A "troll" tries to trick actual OWS supporters into agreeing with stupidity or tries to clutter up this board with negative articles.
I haven't seen you do any of these things. Thus, not a troll.
See, this is what people need to hear. Based on my own experience, people here don't have a problem with constructive disagreement.
...you're one of us Rico... even if you are an unmitigated Fed sympathizer ;)
(((And you Know I'm kidding with ya! heehee)))
Not only have a defended the Fed here, as Looselyhuman points out, I have also defended Ayn Rand. Nevertheless, I think I contribute, and people here seem to accept me as a member of the team. I'd say this speaks against those who claim their opinions aren't heard by the people hear.
Absolutely you do. I've learned much from you and I appreciate your presence here, always rico. I was only razzin' ya =) I've learned more from you than anyone else here. You're a boon of knowledge brother.
I have learned much in return. I'm actually a bit surprised at how much the dialog here has changed my perspective on many topics. My wife says "you'll never change someone's position on the Internet." I have taken to responding "If I change someone else, that's great, but no matter what else happens, I am being changed, and that's reward enough." I honestly didn't realize how insulated I had become from the average American until I came here. Spending time talking to folks who disagree with me seems to yield endless fruit.
Don't get too excited, however, I still support the Fed ;o)
I started out supportive of this movement because I do support getting the money our of politics and an education campaign to get Americans to show social responsibility in their buying choices.
However, as the movement has gotten more and more radical and disposed to violence, I no longer support the movement. Though I still support its original message that has gotten lost.
I am not a troll, nor is anyone else who engages in meaningful discussion.
That seems like a fair statement to me. I was getting frustrated too, so I decided to take the one thing positive thing I could do on my own and run with it. That's how the page at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit came into being.
Well, for sure you are one of the 99% if you say you are. Re OWS, that's probably a tougher question. There are now OWS (__) where the blanks are cities, stores, organizations, etc. So, if you don't mind figuring out what goes in the blanks and if the entity you decide to put there will have you. (Remembering that Mark Twain said something like he wouldn't join any organization that would have him as a member, of course.)
I just saw on Google News that someone published and article that headlined that we OWS should learn better manners. Oh, and that we should respect private property. And, oh again, that we learn the rules of engagement.
That is a good point, to a point, and they mentioned that we have been joined by anarchists that are causing problems including property damage.
I thought about a response to all of that. One of the principles that seems to get substantial support is that the movement rejects violence as a tactic. I support that. And it seems obvious that private property that is owned by the by the 99% should not be harmed because we would be harming ourselves.
Then it gets complicated, Shared ownership through stocks and corporate bonds are shared among 1% and 99%ers. and public property isn't really owned in common, but if it gets replaced, we pay for it. It is really hard to find property isolated and owned by what we would call "bad guys."
So, taking property hostage by occupying it, seems questionable, as a tactic, to me, especially on a long term basis.
We have to answer the question, "Who are we trying to influence and how do we get them to do what we want?" If we think the Congress and the President and the courts are in control, they might be the ones. But if we believe that they are really in the pockets some other people, some of the 1%ers, then maybe they are the ones we should be focusing our attention on.
One thing is certain, we now have the attention of both groups. So, what are we going to do with it?
You and every person in the 99% including me, has an opinion about that.
It makes people nervous when they see a large number of people acting as if they were about to organize and decide to do something. Some find it exciting. Some some find it threatening, Some find it scary. Some find it boring, so they say.
I don't think, I really don't believe, that most of us support radicalism.
We just want to form a more perfect union......a government of the people, by the people and for the people, and that is enough.
If you can buy into that, you aren't a troll.
That's a thoughtful response, and I agree with most of what you say. I am particularly annoyed by our demonstrations of power when we haven't even told people what we want or what it would take to make us stop. We got their attention, but then we had no answer when they asked "what do you want?" I think this frustrates America and harms our image.
I personally wish we would focus on only two things for now...
1) Return the People's POLITICAL power by getting the money out of politics per ( http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ ). Once we have our government back, we can use UNCORRUPTED Democracy to solve our other differences. If we pursue our other differences now, we become powerless factions.
2) Return the People's ECONOMIC power by educating them on it's responsible use per the ideas at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ embodied in the shopping guidelines at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit .
I think these two ideas have very broad appeal and would attract Americans across the political spectrum. Just my opinion, of course.
Personally, I think we need only focus on returning POLITICAL power to the people. getting the money out of politics (see http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ )
I agree on those two points.. I think many do! Holy crap! I think this is the common ground! Also, did you see this one.. re: peoples economic power.. Its a good one.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-parallel-economy/
That IS a good post. I may join the dialog there... tomorrow after I have refreshed the neurons a bit ;o)
As for my two points, I reduced my interests down to these two because I have seen wide support for them here AND the conservative circle of friends I travel in. It seems to me that we're going to need a VERY large part of America to get the money out of politics (remember, the media outlets are the ones who GET all that money, and they're going to fight us). We also can't change the face of corporate America unless we get ALL Americans to start buying responsibly, and I have found that the simple logic of the idea ALSO appeals to people across the range of political persuasions.
Notice how I went out of my way to de-politicise the shopping guidelines at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit . The language in the original posts here was MUCH more political, but the ideas don't NEED to be political, and we get a lot wider range of support when we remove the political tone.
I really wish we could focus on these two things using apolitical language that appeals to ALL Americans. Unfortunately, I suspect I'm in the minority. Being in the minority, however, doesn't mean I can't still debate and argue !
For what its worth I think you are an asset. The web page and your promoting education to your fellow Americans is very commendable.
Ok, now you have to say something nice about me! :)
OK, I think your big X is AWESOME ! ;o)
Hey, could you say something in troll? I have never heard you say anything in troll, so I need to know if there is a difference.
I'm not sure, I might have to find and reinstall the corncob y'all took out of my tail-end when I first found these forums. All I have left up there are a few kernals, will that do ?
Maybe you can give me some examples to help me get my touch bak ?
Oh, that's too funny.
Sorry, thought maybe you were a troll yourself. Are you ?
How exactly do we tell when someone is a troll ?
Nope. You figure it out by watching the responses.
RIght but what about the responses ? Is disagreement alone sufficient for troll-dom ?
Nope, disagreement is fine. There are quite a few people that I disagree with in one area but agree with them in another. You can tell when there is manipulation for a specific "team" or what-have-you.
I am pretty sure they said "We Are All Leaders".. or maybe I read that somewhere else... but I like it, this is good and true. If people sit around waiting for someone else to tell them what to do.. well I think that is what got us into this mess in the first place.
Thanks ! I THINK I'm helping in my own way.
the banks and wall street firms caused the 08 crash, then we bailed them out, and they then paid us back with NOTHING. its time to pay up.
Actually, didn't it happen the other way 'round ? We made up funny money to bail them out and they paid us back with the same funny money we gave them.
Troll
But what MAKES me a "troll" ? Is it the simple fact that I disagree sith some of the more radical ideas ? Is it my language ? Do you think I should be banned from these forums ?
I think radical change is necessary and will come with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Global Warming, Peak Oil, Geometric World Population growth & the funny-money scams.
I acknowledge we face many calamitous problems, but I'm more optimistic. If we can get our government to reflect what We the People want AND become more responsible consumers, I think we can turn things around. I hope so anyway.
There are no trolls only tragic expressions of unmet needs.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/something-to-think-about-part-1/