Forum Post: After Afganistan And Iraq, It May Be Time To Bring Back The Draft
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 1, 2011, 12:46 a.m. EST by puff6962
(4052)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I think that a military draft should be reinstated, one that would require equal percentages of draftees from each socioeconomic strata of our society. This would yield a military that is a crossection of our population and would ensure that the sons and daughters of the rich serve alongside those of the poor.
It's likely that such a requirement, alone, would dampen any more adventurism in our foreign policy and would very quickly halt additional stupid wars. Of course, I could be wrong.
Such a draft would revive some semblance of service to our country and would radically shape the message of shared sacrifice. It's simply disgusting to me that many GI's have rotated ten times through Iraq or Afghanistan, or have been "stopped out." This can simply never happen again.
Of course, if OWS wished to firmly stand behind a message of "shared sacrifice," it might stand behind a program requiring a national year of service for all high school graduates. The experiences of World War II dramatically changed the trajectories of many young Americans. They left the farm, met interesting people (killed some of them), traveled abroad, learned to function within an organization, took pride in their work, and they were able to return to America with a sense of duty and purpose.
Think about it.....
@ puff [6962] : Even though you come across as a bit of a mean spirited US Exceptionalist sometimes, with reference to Afghanistan - "Graveyard of Empires" but alas also an early grave for so many of its long suffering people, I re-post the following for you :
1) Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country, made up of Aimaks, Baluchis, Hazaras, Kazahks, Kirghis, Pamiris, Tajhiks, Turkmen, Uzbeks and at ~42% of the total population, the largest single group, the Pashtuns/Pukhtoons.
2) The historical Pashtun homeland is divided in two by the Afghan / Pakistan border. This porous "border" is in effect the old "Durand Line", the de facto western territorial limit of the British Empire in the Indian subcontinent. The Pashtuns have NEVER recognised this arbitrary line on someone else's map and no external power or authority has ever been able to define it, let alone patrol or police it.
3) Pashtun society is extremely conservative, deeply traditional, unrelentingly patriarchal & tribal. The Women lead difficult lives far removed from any "Liberal Western Norms". A Pashtun is a member of a family group, a sub-clan, a clan and then a tribe. At over 45 million people globally, they are the world's largest tribally affiliated ethnic group.
4) Conservative Islam & the Lex Talionis, Pre-Islamic honour code "Pashtunwalli", are the law, organisational guidelines and ethical principles by which this proud, fiercely independent and hardy mountain people regulate their society alongside and within their Jirga / Shura / Majlis collective decision making and gathering systems.
5) The phrase "Revenge is a dish best served cold", is the English approximation and appropriation of the Pashtun original. Another Pashtun dictum is: "Me against my brothers; me and my brothers against my cousins; me, my brothers and my cousins against the world". Pashtun males are considered adult at 13 years of age and are honour bound to defend "Zan, Zhar, Zamin" - Women, Wealth & Land. Notions of loyalty and duty to kith & kin, honour, respect, shame, "not losing face" & "dying on one's feet rather than living on one's knees" are central to their world view & modus vivendi.
6) The word "Taliban" translates as "Students", as they were originally recruited, equipped and organised with the enthusiastic help, encouragement and funding of the Saudis, ISI, MI6 and The CIA from the Madrasas (religious schools) in the numerous Pashtun refugee camps, during and after the war to oust the Soviet armed forces and the devastating civil war that followed it. Their grandfathers and fathers were then of course, known and eulogised as the "Mujahideen". The word "Taliban" is now nothing other than a obfuscatory, propagandist and subversive "meme" for what is in actuality, under various names and guises - The Pashtun National Resistance Movement.
7) The peoples of present day Afghanistan, whether Pashtun or otherwise, are the time served world champions of guerilla warfare and insurgency. No army or empire has ever been able to totally defeat or completely dominate them. (Alexander the Great's) Greek, Scythian, Hepthalite, Bactrian, Persian, Mongol, Arab, Turkic, British and Russian armies have all been severely mauled and bloodied at some time or other and have had to retreat ; stay and assimilate ; pay tribute to or come to an accommodation with, these fierce and warlike peoples.
8) The Americans, despite their massive military superiority, are the latest to learn these same painful lessons. This time however, the whole world is (Quite Intentionally ?!) further driven towards a "Clash of Civilisations", as advocated by Samuel Huntington, Benny Morris, William Safire, Thomas Friedman, Charles Krauthammer, Donald, Robert & Fred Kagan, Norman & John Podhoretz, Richard & Daniel Pipes, Irving & Bill Kristol, Richards Perle & Haas, Pauls Bremer & Wolfowitz, et al.
9) This PNAC/NeoCon ambition, aspiration & world view stimulates and is mirrored by (as predicted by the Probability Gamers in Herzliya and Langley!) the grand "End Time" schematic of a few thousand Jihadis worldwide, whose fanaticism and fury ; rage and resistance is fuelled, stoked and provoked by the Scientific Uber-Violence and Imperial Jackboot of the "Coalition of the Complicit", under the aegis and "Blood Spattered Banner of the Usurped States of Amnesiacs".
10) What the Warmongering US "National Security" / Military / Industrial / Corporate / Banking cliques did NOT seem to know of the Buddhist Vietnamese, in that they were a fiercely independent people, who had fought the Mongol, Khmer, Chinese, Japanese and French Imperiums before they defeated the USA - so do they NOW seem NOT to know of the Muslim Afghans.
~*~
However, perhaps an Unending War is just what is Really Wanted by the Dark Forces of the Bankster-U$/MIC Nexus. After all 9/!! was the declared raison d'etre for the Illegal and Immoral War on Afghanistan but as that attack had nothing to do with Afghans or Afghanistan, then ... ?
Endless Empire and 'WARFARE' abroad and Unjust Austerity and 'UNFAIR' at home - this horror, hubris and hypocrisy just can NOT go on !!!
fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ruat coelum ...
For a brief history of "US Intervention In The Middle East" in the 20th Century, please see : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm & fiat lux ...
For a comprehensive history of "U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World II", please see William Blum's "Killing Hope" : http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2007/02/125025.pdf & fiat pax ...
I'm pretty sure puff is advocating reinstating the draft so the public will take responsibility and not go to war. Nobody really cares enough if the military is voluntary but if it's their children being forced to go then maybe people would stand against it en mass. Although I don't agree about the draft I see agree that it could have this effect.
What was that latin bit at the end?
Dude war has been a necessity of human life since the beginning of recorded history and I'm sure it went on before that. War happens
War is not up to the public. It's decided on by the president now thanks to recent years of National Defense Authorizations Acts, or the UN, or other shit. Congress doesn't really do anything anymore in the regard declaring war as certain styles of bombings and operations don't even qualify as war anymore.
“This bill authorizes permanent warfare anywhere in the world. It gives the president unchecked power to pursue war. It diminishes the role of this Congress. The founders saw Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, which places in the hands of Congress the war power, as essential to a check and balance against the executive abuse of power. This legislation diminishes Congress' role in that regard.” -Dennis Kucinich in regards to the National Defense Authorization Act
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=272606
fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ruat coelum ...
Let there be light: Let it be peace, justice be done heaven fall
Didnt stop em in Vietnam, whats the difference
It is actually the reason why there were so many antiwar protests which did cause the war to end in some ways. The civil unrest was so high that the government had to reserve troops in case they would be needed for our own country which affected decisions about continuing the war.
7 years of bloody war is nothing to hand your hat on.
It would have been much worse without those giant protests. They were considering using nuclear weapons on Vietnam but Johnson was afraid of being lynched because so many people were organizing in this country. There are audio recordings of this if you don't believe me.
Im sure you have plenty of propoganda to back you up. The bottom line is that the people in this country watched our kids come home in body bags, over 60 fuckin thousand of them, for seven fuckin years, before they decided to withdraw.
That is no victory, that is a slap in the face. Which is why both parties need to go.
Do you think that there would have been massive protests if Vietnam had begun in 2004 instead of 1964?
We have "outsourced" our military instead of fighting or defending ourselves through the shared sacrifice or our citizenry.
Only a stratified draft will ameliorate what has been done to our fighting force. Only a stratified draft will prevent the rich and powerful from ever fighting a war of choice rather than necessity.
I wasn't aware about the possibility of nuclear weapons. If that's indeed true, that's a scarey thought. I'm going to do some research on that, thanks for bringing it to light.
What?
Vietnam was the lesson. Iraq was the lesson we didn't learn.
The war in Iraq was one of the greatest blunders in American history......and our military was treated as some sort of "black box" because not enough Americans were connected to the effects of our decisions as a nation.
@ hamal : Re. 'The Draft' ; It Still = Death !! + Re. "that latin" ; "Let There Be Light ; Let There Be Peace ; Let There Be Justice Though The Heavens Fall ... with the "though" being implied. ;-)
Yea but it might be less death. Isn't that how a lot of European countries do it? I think the ones that do are probably least involved in our wars but Im too tired to look it up. I can't imagine ever being for the draft personally I'm just saying there is something there maybe.
I wish I knew latin
@ hamal : I sort of see your point and Switzerland may be a good example for your line of thought !
Re. Latin (or any other Language) we've all got 'Google Traqnslate' { http://translate.google.com/ } & sites like http://www.omniglot.com/index.htm and http://www.freelang.net/ to play with, though to coin a phrase touched with irony, English remains The World's "lingua franca" !
Ecce, veritas ab absurdum (= behold, the truth from the absurd - though a True Latin Scholar may take exception to my construction !) & ;-)
yeah kinda similar mentality to legalizing weed, por example, maybe
If everyone had to volunteer in drug rehab clinics, I think that it is fair to say that they would not be so frivolous in their views of marijuana.
well said, thank you :)
You're welcome + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR_NIzto_ZQ & do try to catch the lyrics ;-)
I don't know; I think we have to keep our eye on the prize, which is a continued American prosperity.
Victori adferte praedam...
Why not put this in a separate forum?
Wars produce uncertainty, inflation, and stock market drops....
So, the only people that benefit are those who are shorting the market utilizing precious metals to place their bets.
Only Goldman Sachs is that smart.
If you notice my "I re-post the following", you'll see that I did exactly as you suggest. My original forum post = http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupied-afghanistan-some-facts-points-observation/ . However, I do NOT actually think that Americans really and truly want to face The Facts when it comes to The US Empire abroad !! pax, amor et lux ...
lo siento.
'No problemo' y de nada ;-)
I plan on going to an academy. Where do those fit in?
I went to USAFA. I think that would satisfy your service to your country.
USCGA hopeful. Do you mean the time you're in the academy or the current requirement of years following the schooling?
Both....also add in flight school and medical school.....you end up with quite a long obligation to our nation.
But, the schooling and regimentation that you shall experience shall benefit you greatly throughout your life.
Good luck.
Just remember, never volunteer for anything and learn the Zen mask of invisibility.
Thanks for the tips.
A citizen army is the ideal. so yes a return to the draft would be good for America.
It will never happen.
The draft is perceived, by the right-wing, to be what incited the anti-war movement in the 1960-70's. They do not want masses of Americans in the streets opposing their wars. They will not have a draft.
For the same reason they don't fund wars with tax increases any longer.
Making the middle-class breed the cannon fodder for war is bad enough but also making the middle-class pay for the war is too much.
Stupid, worn out argument. War is against the law. Kellog-Briand Pact.
Sure Puff. I think YOU should be the first one drafted. No desk job for you. You should get an assignment patrolling the most dangerous town in Afghanistan. Why do you call yourself Puff anyway? Are you Australian? In Australia Puff means Gay. You are very brave for volunteering the lives of other people.
I'm a veteran. Fuck you.
Yea right. Veteran of what? The unemployment line? Just like your phony story about getting wealthy from "investments". Sure. Dream on.
What would you like to know about investing? I will tell you, in two paragraphs, more than you could learn from an MBA.
First Power, Then Change.
Nonsense. If you understand how this country really works, you have to be a fool to fight unless you like throwing your life away. Too bad many of our veterans learned the hard way.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM OsiXs (Revolution 2.0 - The Smart Revolution)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELOl57yypGI&feature=related
The Military would not bring back the draft. They like a volunteer force of people who think the way they do. One of the reasons the draft was done with after Vietnam is because the Draftees started to realize they were fighting for nothing and rebelled against the war from the inside. Those days are long gone.
Yes, but that was in the aftermath of Vietnam. Over 50,000 Americans lost their lives during that war.
The situation today is so much different today than in 1974. You had to be alive then to understand.
I was a young child during the conflict. The Draftees who did not support the war who did not make it to Canada ended up in Vietnam protesting and undermining the effort while serving. It cause problems in the ranks and many who were against the war were killed by "friendly fire" in the jungles of Nam. Sort of like what happened with Pat Tillman RIP.
How bout we draft the corporate, banker, wallstreet elite and the politicians who get us into these messes.
a) You end your forum-post with : "Think about it" ?!! What ? Just in time for your aspirations and projections about Iran, you mean ?!
b) "Of course, if OWS wished to firmly stand behind a message of 'shared sacrifice' ..." !! Does your pro-WAR sophistry know no shame ? Are you happy to send and "sacrifice" other peoples' kids to kill and die for your "Imperial Strategic Aims" ?!!
c) Finally, re your other forum-post - "The Drums Of War Have Begun Again And There Isn't A Damn Thing We Can Do About It." [ http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-war-with-iran-will-look-like/ ] - YOU are of course very happy about that as you see such a terrible prospect for others as both desrirable and 'inevitable' !!!
Watch : http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/i-psychopath/ ; start to recognise yourself "puff" et ...
nosce te ipsum.
Aides Qualify Panetta’s Comments on Iran By THOM SHANKER Published: December 20, 2011 New York Times
WASHINGTON — An assertion by Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta that Iran could have a nuclear weapon as soon as next year was based on a highly aggressive timeline and a series of actions that Iran has not yet taken, senior Pentagon officials said Tuesday.
In an interview broadcast Monday on “CBS Evening News,” Mr. Panetta was asked whether Iran could have a nuclear weapon in 2012.
“It would be sometime around a year that they would be able to do it,” he said. “Perhaps a little less.”
Mr. Panetta said the country’s ability to become a nuclear-weapons state could be accelerated if there was “a hidden facility somewhere in Iran that may be enriching fuel.”
He also restated American policy: that it would be unacceptable for Iran to have nuclear weapons, and that no options, including military action, had been taken off the table to prevent that from happening.
“The United States does not want Iran to develop a nuclear weapon,” Mr. Panetta said. “That’s a red line for us. And it’s a red line, obviously, for the Israelis.”
But on Tuesday, George Little, the Pentagon press secretary, said Mr. Panetta’s comments should not be taken as a prediction that Iran would have a nuclear weapon within a year.
“The secretary was clear that we have no indication that the Iranians have made a decision to develop a nuclear weapon,” Mr. Little said. “He was asked to comment on prospective and aggressive timelines on Iran’s possible production of nuclear weapons — and he said if, and only if, they made such a decision. He didn’t say that Iran would, in fact, have a nuclear weapon in 2012.”
Mr. Little said inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency remained in Iran and had “good access to Iran’s continuing production of low-enriched uranium.” Should Iran choose to “break out” — diverting low-enriched uranium to produce weapons-grade highly enriched uranium — the inspectors could detect it, Mr. Little said.
“We would retain sufficient time under any such scenario to take appropriate action,” he said.
Mr. Panetta’s comments and efforts by his senior aides to add nuance and context to those statements show the highly sensitive nature of all public dialogue on Iran’s nuclear intentions. The issue is particularly acute as a debate is raging in Israel over whether pre-emptive action is required to prevent Iran from constructing a nuclear weapon, and, if so, how much time remains.
Thanx for being the conduit of yet more MSM 'smoke and mirrors' on the matter of WAR with Iran ; this time from The NY Times ;-(
I am issuing warnings....and telling all who will listen that you had better begin to think about this issue.
Nothing else.
Why would we bring back the draft? Your just another jew trying to spread fear - just like our media. Fight your own wars...stop spreading Islamaphobia....nobody cares about Israel...we should drop them like a nasty turd, they are all thieves, liars, killers, cheats, land grabbers and financial criminals. If Americans were informed and knew about where their tax dollars went there would be major resentment...we need our tax dollars here in the US - to create jobs and protect the USA - fuck Israel.
Straight of Hormuz.
so why on Earth does America need to reinstate a draft? This makes absolutely no sense....be honest, tell everyone you want America/Gentiles to fight Israeli wars....maybe Israel should take care of Iran by themselves....
My thoughts on the draft spring from the conviction that the whole of society makes better decisions when all divisions have skin in the game....literally.
And, in fact, I think that there would have been a great deal more deliberation on Iraq if this type of draft had been present in 2003.
Along the same lines, I believe that our politicians would feel a personal duty to make sane, rational, and not political decisions in their motivations for any action that may occur elsewhere.....including Iran....if they had to come back and face constituents (particularly wealthy ones) who had kids in the military.
The draft is the great equalizer. Military service, or a year of national service, could be a unifying force in our society.
Ben Franklin pushed for a system of public, and not Parochial, education as a means of creating a public sphere. He realized that America will drift towards factionalism if there are not public institutions to blend the masses.
We are a mass that now needs a blender.
Nice words for those who believe in "The Cult of The Warrior" ; "Empire" and the need to manufacture an "Imperial Esprit de Corps" and an "Imperial raison d'etre" !!!
You're a proponent of continued and indeed increasing US-Empire "puff" and as such I will be reviewing your myriad forum-posts, for revealing congruences rather than any contradictions !!
However, that'll have to wait for later as it's 6.30 am here in he UK and I have to prep for my day !
vincit qui se vincit ...
Lorem te ipsum.
I will take the post above to be an interesting de facto admission on your part and an indication that you may well be an 'IT' bod ...
I agree with this... two years for all of either military or civil corps service. And I am less concerned about the rich than I am the poor; it is the poor that require this education.
If people really understood what they were truly fighting for, I doubt they would opt to be a part of the military. If people understood the IMF, then they would likely opt for the military to be used as a vehicle for change. That is never going to happen. Soldiers have no say whatsoever in the ways of the military. If you are told to die for oil, then you better listen or you get court martialed. There is no questions asked. It is a fascist institution. I in no way will ever support a draft.
What if China invaded Taiwan? What if North Korea held Japan as a nuclear hostage? What if Iran invaded Israel? What if Iran sold a nuke to a failed state? What if the USSR had invaded Western Europe? What would you have done when Hitler and Japan turned the world upside down and Pearl Harbor was bombed? In which scenario would you burn your draft card? How far will you go to really build a better world?
Think before you answer.....Each of these instances would be turning points in this history of our planet, and inaction would carry potentially dire consequences for you and your grandchildren.
It's not easy to live in an interconnected planet. It may be hard to see beyond your own horizons. But, the decisions that are made by politicians, conveyed to military commanders, and enacted by soldiers may save the world for the time being. Inaction, on the other hand, may simply yield a delayed but much greater conflict and plunge the world into a darkness that we can scarce imagine.
Should we have invaded Iraq? Fuck no. Should we have taken down Osama Bin Laden as quickly as possible with as much force as it would have taken....Fuck yes.
Some battles are just and, most often, the answer is clear. It is when there is uncertainty that we have been led astray by men acting on behalf of political motivations. It is our duty as citizens to resist such impulses.....as much as it may be the soldier's duty to carry them out.
I might support reserving the military for such dire circumstances, but there has been very little in the way that has happened on a historical level that runs into those lines. There is a reason why the US constantly does not want to engage other nations in anti-ballistic missile treaties. It profits from threats and will go as far as to make threats far more threatening than what they truly are.
I do not really fear other nations as much as most people seem to. It's a rare event for a nation to fully engage in a nuclear attack. Nations play games like this all the time. Rarely are they ever carried out to full blown attack. Nobody wants to be in a nuclear war.
The US establishment does not like regimes that do not cater to business interests and the investment community. It is often those regimes that have the power to combat the interests of dictators. Those regimes tend to be hostile towards US interests, and so they must be crushed. The interests in the Middle East revolve heavily around oil, and so any regime that is hostile towards the oil industry is deemed a threat. And there's Israel, which is a different matter, but our bases there serve as watchdog bases. Our support for the Israeli State's violent actions increases threats. And so Hamas is a threat due to their involvement against Israel. But we never said that Ariel Sharon was a threat, though. Of course not. We need Israel on our side, since it may be the only country there that will remain on our side, so that we can pillage and plunder for oil.
Well said.
I was drafted in 1967. The draft will NEVER be equitable as long as we live in a class society. The connected got into the National Guard, which stayed at home, or put into cushy spots within the military.
Then block that option.
Another stupid post. At least try a little math some time. We're a really big country. Take the number of people we need in the military. Take the number of people in draft age. Divide. Simply asking people to volunteer makes more sense than a random and highly unlikely draft. We simply don't need even close to the numbers a draft would raise.
Next, smarten up about the talent needed in the military. Many jobs are complex and simply not fillable with short-term draftees. So, again, we need a system where people choose to be in the armed forces.
So, I take it, you won't be supporting this idea?
I think the draft is a non-starter.
Dubya demonstrates that a draft is no incentive to the establishment not to engage in war, as their kids can still get preferential assignment. Dubya apparently rarely even showed up, though he was stationed stateside.
the draft itself became a focal point for dissent - having to serve in a war you don't believe in is problematic for the military - which would seem to support your argument, but it becomes their argument against the idea.
I guess this idea was inspired by the absence of widespread debate prior to the invasion of Iraq. It was as if the country thought that it could push a couple of buttons and Saddam would fall with an America junior emerging in his place.
Of course, that's not what happened, and there were no WMD's. But, moreover, there was not outrage that there was no WMD. There was no body armor, but where was the outrage? There was stopout, and how could this be legal? There was an insurgency, but where were the additional troops?
I just kept thinking to myself how different our actions would have been if the foot soldiers were the children of the rich or powerful.
None of this would have ever happened......and that is why I think this solution, reinstating a class sensitive draft, could be the most significant anti-war measure in our history.
I think Robert Heinlein had a better idea, in that you weren't accorded full rights as a citizen, for example voting rights, until you voluntarily performed public service.
When you think about it, why should someone who isn't willing to positively contribute to the society they're a member of, have the right to have a say in how it's run?
[Removed]
Nope!
Nope?
Nope!
Nope?
nahh...no.
It's the best anti-war measure ever proposed. So, why not?
Because there would be no blowback. The american sheep would just do as they are told and not fight back.
Do you think that if Mitch McConnell and a tenth of all Rep's and Senators had kids in the military that we would have went into Iraq?
No because political leaders pay off the military industrial complex to look the other way and to not draft their kids. Of course there would be no wars if rich kids had to fight. Those types only think of themselves. But they view us like tools to be used for any foreign or domestic conflict, so of course they will push us into fighting their wars.
Great idea. Let's have a military consiting of a bunch of people who don't want to be there. If you've never been in the military, please don't make suggestions about it.
Trying to perserve it? I've been in the military, and I can tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. We don't send poor kids to do our fighting for us, people like myself join of their own free will.
There used to be a time when people of all walks of life joined the military out of honor and wanting to actually do something for the country that they live in. Now it seems to be more for a paycheck. It's not the governments fault that this happened.
The bottom line with Iraq is that we over-threw an incredibly evil dictator. I thought that's the kind of thing you people loved. Should we only help countries that we don't have a self interest in?
If someone has gone on their "umpteenth" deployment, it means they've reenlisted to do it. They know what they're doing, and it's something you could never understand.
That's like saying that if you've never jumped off a cliff, then you aren't qualified to say that it's a bad idea.
Do you think it's fair that we send our poor kids to do our fighting for us?
Do you think it's fair that many in our military have rotated umpteen times through Iraq or Afghanistan?
Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq, based upon the flimsiest of intelligence, if there had been a draft similar to what I've described?
Do you believe that "Stop out" was a good policy?
You should understand, I am not trying to undercut our military force, I am trying to preserve it.
The Dems led by Charlie Rangel tried it a few years back, but the Reps stopped them.
Try again. Package the bill with something the Repucons want. Do it incrementally. Publicize the effort. Try it at the state level. Anything.
Things fail because people give up.
Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that.
You know what? NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY has the right to FORCE ME to go out and kill my fellow man and risk getting killed! I've had it with this mindset that the military is honorable and war is glorious and you should be blindly proud of your country! It's not like the TV shows guys. You're being played into fighting for something that is not important to you. You have the right to LIFE and NOBODY has the right to take it away from you.
Life planned out before my birth, nothing could I say had no chance to see myself, molded day by day Looking back I realize, nothing have I done left to die with only friend Alone I clench my gun
You'd rather shop it out to someone who is poor or stupid enough to be in a forgotten, outsource, military force at the wrong time.
Pussy.
Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq if 10% of the soldiers came from the wealthiest 10% of our population?
Pussy.
To divide it up equally 1% from the 1% 99% from the 99%
Cut the military and send them to war with no body armer again.
It would cut our overall unemployment rate..
That will be the next Republican initiative to improve our economy.....that and cutting the taxes of the rich.
You make a good point. It would help with unemployment. It would also help train a large amount of Americans with technical skills. (I'm not saying all military skills are useful, I've seen first hand on how some aren't). Those that are trained useful skills, can translate them into our work force.
Hopefully, it would also promote those in the military to save money for school or whatever venture they wish to begin once out of the military. This implies less student debt and the possibility for small businesses.
The only way this would truly work, is if laws and regulations were put in place, forcing (I use this term loosely) everyone, no matter what you're background or income level, to serve. There can't be exceptions. I hate to put it that way, but if rules aren't put in place, politicians and the wealthy will continue to play their games, and the same societal percentile who are in the military now, will continue to be in, despite a draft.
forget it. no more war. no more. give us a break. count your chickens and go home
No draft.
It is all fun and games when someone else is deciding whose kid gets to go die.
Oh, that's an easy answer: Children of federally elected officials and defense contractor honchos go on the front lines. That way, random aggression on the part of war hawks will be tempered by the knowledge that such aggression could easily lead to their children dying for nothing, and people who matter will have one hell of an impetus to properly equip our troops because it'll be their kid who comes home in a bag when they cut corners.
Are you in the military? Are you joining the military?
Do you think that we would have invaded Iraq if 20% of the soldiers came from the wealthiest 20% of our population?
A draft of this sort is the only way to retrain the powerful in their choices. Plus, it solidifies the notion of "shared sacrifice" in the minds of Americans from all classes.
Puff6962, I have forbidden my son to join the military. Not now, not ever. In the past, even when the wealthy join the military they are often removed from the actual battles. The 80% of the rest of our kids will pay that price in one form or another. I refuse to allow my kid to fight for someone else's profit. I come from a long line of military.
I've been suggesting something similar; universal public service for two to four years either after high school for those who choose not to go on to college or after the first bachelor's degree is attained (or master's, for people in accelerated BS/MS programs) with the default option being military or defense service and public or community service being made available without stigma for the disabled and for conscientious objectors.
With the option of community service, what objections would conscientious objectors be objecting to?
I could see the need for military for community services done in war torn countries (internal strife), military for the protection of the community and the workers, plus military for the Corps of Engineers for projects...
A well is basically a hole in the ground, extraction of water and dispersal takes some consideration.
Perhaps a mutually financed operation between countries...where the burden is not all placed upon the one delivering aid.
I honestly agree with you; what I meant before is that people with conscientious objections or physical disabilities that would disallow them from the military or service to DoD would be free, without stigma or prejudice, to perform their service to domestic agencies and local communities at large.
I was just asking a generic question as I know that in the Vietnam era many conscientious objectors opted for 'service' in the Peace Corps others entered into the service and worked in medical some of which was in the 'field'.
The physically and/or mentally disabled have always not been required to serve, even to the point of not being allowed to serve when they have wished to.
Depending on the disability service to local communities would be a wonderful thing both for the community and for the person suffering from disabilites, a win win for sure.
Ya, I think that two years service or more would swamp the system. Two years would be ideal.....as it takes at least four months to train a person to be proficient in most things. But, at least, one year should be required in return for some college assistance. Two years.....or one year with an optional (acceptance required) summer reserve type addition would allow those with meager financial resources to attend college.
The main thing the national service option would do, however, is shrink the current work force. High School Graduates would be enmeshed in the program for at least one year and, if they attend college, for up to five years.
If this resulted in more students attending college full time, then there would be a slowing of individuals entering the work force.
The effective unemployment rate would lessen, similar to the GI Bill following WWII.
On top of that, I want to suggest a novel method of public service for staffing of regulatory agencies; start actively recruiting college students and create a pipeline that leads environmental science/ecology and chemical engineering students to the EPA, nuclear engineering students to the IAEA, etc, medical and Pharm. D. students to the FDA, etc. so that Uncle Sam has a source of talent and knowledge independent of the private sector. There are already ROTC scholarships and financial assistance from places like NASA-JPL (they pay your tuition and you agree to work for them for a certain number of years); similar programs for students in fields relevant to regulatory agencies is a great way to get and hold new talent, and also a great way to further shrink the private-sector workforce and move us back toward full effective employment.
agreed. but that's partially why our government is killing people with drone strikes now.
I think there's a lot that needs to be said here...
First, I would question this statement of "equal percentages of draftees from each socioeconomic strata" because we are essentially a classless society, or a society defined as possessed of an upward mobility as class-leveling, and there are no hard and fast lines; how then do we derive this percentage?
What's wrong with everyone serving; why a percentage at all? And who amongst the strata do you intend to exclude, the "educated" perhaps? How then do you define "education"?
More... you specify "high school graduates"; what of dropouts and those that are home schooled; why do you exclude them?
On the pragmatic level...
First, in reference to circumstance: the US Army is the closest thing available in the US today to "slavery," in that, the military owns your body - they can send you anywhere in the world at any time where you WILL rise at 4:30, fall out for PT and a five mile uphill run at 5:30, then award you twenty minutes for chow, after which they will transport that bod at 7:30 on the back of a "Deuce- and-a-half" in ten degree weather to a work day that technically has no end; there are no "hours" - defense is a twenty four hour-a-day job, and you may NEVER go home.
And what are the options in a world where defiance spells "dishonorable" as a deficiency that will impact your future?
Secondly, there are distinct differences between a peace time army and a war time army; in the war time army they actually hand you an M16 and all manner of deadly accoutrement... they "empower" you and so there is a distinct shift in power, i.e., less preparatory mind games, a greater respect, more honor and loyalty.
In respect to discipline, a year is insufficient; lets go for two... everybody serves, and those who "dropout," drop-in, until they reach the age of twenty one.
Having the rich in the military as those possessed of independent means is not necessarily a good thing; it serves to undermine discipline.
And having draftees as opposed to "volunteers" is not a good thing, either. It serves to undermine both discipline and mission capability; that's exactly what happened in Vietnam (towards the end).
So I think you're on the right path but we need some defining statements. And, you know, Germany has this, a mandatory two year requirement. The problem is that too many opt for the civil corps and discipline is non-existent - too many either fail to show or obtain a medical pardon.
We should have an "educational" draft of at least two years, either in the active military or civil corps. But I think the children of the rich and powerful will always circumvent.
Perhaps some would. But, most would not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-3hZsXrxaI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQqjTxI3vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
I think the question at hand is should Americans be asked to all have skin in the game and whether that may be beneficial to our long term decision making.
Perhaps, such a draft would reduce the likelihood of action against IRAN.
This isn't Israel....Puff is a pro Israeli scumbag - Israel is no democracy - it's a state built on lies, murder, cheating and theft....you might want these middle eastern countries to be destroyed for the benefit of Israel but most USA folks want nothing to do with your kind or your country which is full of liars, thieves, killers, cheaters murderers, land grabbers, nation wreckers and financial fraud cheats. You and your draft can go fuck yourself....we aren't a military state like IsraHELL and we never will be...
The ink from the swastika on your shaved scalp is frying your neurons again.
Another Israeli firster....notice the Israeli firsters want the draft...I wonder why?
Everyone knows that you get a chubby when you say the word Israel. If only your wife were hotter.
reinstate the draft but we must look at one thing...why do very few jewish folks fight in the US army? This is a fact....maybe we need to enlist more jewish folks - make this a mandatory clause if we are to reinstate the draft...because remember, fighting these Middle Eastern Wars benefit Israel more than the USA....how will these Middle Eastern Wars benefit the average American family who may lose their son or daughter in battle? also, make it mandatory that those goofy big nose IDF soldiers fight in these wars as well. Tired of Americans dying for the putrid scumbag zionazis
They are the ones designing the weapons. Jewish people tend to be more intelligent then the crowd you run with.....just keep your knuckles off the ground.
Seriously, I almost feel bad.....you're too easy.
You do realize that your mother knows about that drawer full of tissues, don't you Spanky?
is that true? If jewish folks were more intelligent we would not be in this financial mess (Greenspan, Summers, Blankfein, Frank, Soros, Rubin, Rothschild, Weill, Bernanke, Geitner, etc), correct? Nor would we be in these Middle Eastern wars pushed by neocons and zionist jews....Jews develop weapons because it's in their nature to kill, they are financiers and lawyers because it's in their nature to steal, lie and cheat.....most inventions, great art, music and science innovations came at the hand of gentiles....besides Israel's average IQ is 95 - not high by any means
They must be measuring their IQ's relative to other Jews.
I doubt it....anytime you read about high jewish IQ's there are usually two main flaws: 1) the article is written by a jew and one isn't sure how truthful or accurate it is 2) the sample size is very small and selected with some level of bias (they intentionally choose the most intelligent jews for the sample.....so no, they are not more intelligent than any other group....they do network/help one another out better than any other group though
In some nations, military service is a requirement.
Every war, generally speaking, has been a one-fall disqualification to see who would run the world. World War II gave rise to the 2 superpowers. The cold war left only one superpower standing. Will the next conflict be between Asia vs America. If it is, we had better be ready to fight. China is sure getting itself ready
I do think it would be reasonable for ALL Americans to devote a year of national service in return for subsidies for college. If you wanted an increased level of college support, then you could go the military route. That way, everyone would serve in some capacity and the notion of "shared sacrifice" would again enter our Lexicon.
There are over 300,000 corporations who contract with the department of defense. They would never allow a draft as long as there are plenty of poor young men and women willing to blow to smithereens everything they produce.
Yes, please explain that to this "censored" idiot trolling this topic. Thanks for the post.
Forget about Afghanistan for now and start worrying about our next war.....Iran.
Also, the Cold War never ended, the opposition just tagged in another player...the Chinese....and changed methods from nuclear conflict to economic annihilation.
Re. "our next war ... Iran" : Some hard facts may bring some 'Light' to matters, rather than all the unpleasant 'Heat' being generated by the constant fear & loathing :
a) Iran has The Words 2nd Largest Liquid & 3rd Largest known 'Total' Oil Reserves : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Iran ,
b) Iran has The Worlds 2nd Largest known Gas Reserves : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_reserves_in_Iran
c) Further consider that in Feb. '08, Iran opened a Hydro-Carbon Bourse at the Kish Mercantile Exchange ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11613.htm and http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28646.htm ) - trading in a basket of currencies, including Euros, Roubles, Yuan & Iranian Rial BUT NOT in U$ Dollar$ & thereby challenging Reserve Currency, Dollar "HegeMoney" & the Monopoly of the existing Oil & Petroleum Bourses. Thus do 'a-c' here constitute the Real "Casus Belli" ?!
d) The same NeoCon, Neo-Colonial, Paleo-Imperial WARMONGERS who beat the drums for The Unconscionable, Illegal & Immoral WAR on Iraq (where The Only "WMD" = Words of Mass Deception !!) are now beating the Drums of War and this time Iran is in the Imperial crosshairs. Pls. Research PNAC (eg http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC etc.)
e) See The Film, "WHY WE FIGHT ; What are the forces that shape and propel American militarism ?" : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8494.htm .
@merica : Nosce Te Ipsum ...
"Forget about Afghanistan ..." ; Forget about Iraq ; Forget about Panama ; Forget about Grenada (GRenada ?!) ... forget : forGET : FORGET !!!
Re. just the 20th Century and for those who do NOT wish to forget ...
a) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm &
b) http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2007/02/125025.pdf !
pax et lux ; nunc et semper ...
dulce et conveniens est pro patria mori
Have you ever read that poem?
I am very anti-war, but I'm afraid that we've destroyed the level of discourse in this country, to such a degree, that rational decisions do not necessarily prevail.
And, we are in an economic Cold War with China.....and we're losing.
Re. "we are in an economic Cold War with China.....and we're losing." : IF 'winning and losing' are our only yardstick & metric ; prism & lens ... then we are limiting our perspective and possibilities - as Human Beings.
Yes, I know the poem and thanx for your timely reference to this post WW 1 poem, which was titled with an intentionally dark sense of irony ...
DULCE ET DECORUM EST(1)
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares(2) we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest(3) began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots(4)
Of tired, outstripped(5) Five-Nines(6) that dropped behind.
Gas!(7) Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets(8) just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime(9) . . .
Dim, through the misty panes(10) and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,(11) choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud(12)
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest(13)
To children ardent(14) for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori.
[Wilfred Owen, 8 October 1917 - March, 1918]
Notes on Dulce et Decorum Est
DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country.
Flares - rockets which were sent up to burn with a brilliant glare to light up men and other targets in the area between the front lines (See illustration, page 118 of Out in the Dark.)
Distant rest - a camp away from the front line where exhausted soldiers might rest for a few days, or longer
Hoots - the noise made by the shells rushing through the air
Outstripped - outpaced, the soldiers have struggled beyond the reach of these shells which are now falling behind them as they struggle away from the scene of battle
Gas! - poison gas. From the symptoms it would appear to be chlorine or phosgene gas. The filling of the lungs with fluid had the same effects as when a person drowned
Helmets - the early name for gas masks
Lime - a white chalky substance which can burn live tissue
Panes - the glass in the eyepieces of the gas masks
Guttering - Owen probably meant flickering out like a candle or gurgling like water draining down a gutter, referring to the sounds in the throat of the choking man, or it might be a sound partly like stuttering and partly like gurgling
Cud - normally the regurgitated grass that cows chew usually green and bubbling. Here a similar looking material was issuing from the soldier's mouth
High zest - idealistic enthusiasm, keenly believing in the rightness of the idea
ardent - keen
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - see note 1 above.
pax et lux ...