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Forum Post: 25 Signs That The Nazification Of America Is Almost Complete

Posted 2 years ago on April 23, 2012, 5:40 p.m. EST by Reneye (118)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

25 Signs That America Is Rapidly Becoming More Like Nazi Germany

The United States of America is becoming more like Nazi Germany every single day. In fact, the Nazification of America is almost complete. The parallels between Nazi Germany and the United States of today are going to absolutely shock many of you. Most Americans simply have never learned what life was really like back in Nazi Germany. Under Adolf Hitler, Germany was a Big Brother totalitarian police state that ruthlessly repressed freedom and individual liberty. Under Adolf Hitler, Germany adopted socialism, dramatically increased government spending and raised taxes to astronomical levels. Under Adolf Hitler, abortion became legal in Germany, the government took over health care and Christianity was pushed out of the public schools and out of public life. To prove all of these points, I am going to use extensive quotes from two sources. Kitty Werthmann was a child living a peaceful life in Austria when Hitler took over her nation. Her eyewitness accounts about what life was like under Nazi Germany are invaluable. In addition, I will also be quoting extensively from author Bruce Walker. He is the author of a book entitled "The Swastika Against The Cross: The Nazi War On Christianity", and during his years of research he has uncovered some absolutely jaw dropping stuff. After reading the information in the rest of this article, there should be no doubt that the United States is becoming just like Nazi Germany.

Nazi Germany shows us what happens when the state becomes god. Adolf Hitler was certainly more racist than the leaders of America are today, but other than that there are very few differences between the road that Adolf Hitler led Germany down and the path that the United States is being led down.

The following are 25 signs that America is rapidly becoming more like Nazi Germany....

1 Nazi Germany was a totalitarian Big Brother police state that constantly monitored everything that German citizens did.

Today, the bureaucrats that run things in the United States are also absolutely obsessed with constantly trying to monitor us. For example, there are now control freaks that inspect the lunches of preschool students in certain areas of the country in order to make sure that they contain the "right" foods....

The rest of list is on the link

http://current.com/1iaukkc

215 Comments

215 Comments


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[-] 5 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

"what good fortune for governments that people do not think" adolf hitler

[-] 1 points by OCWSEATTLEWASH (9) 2 years ago

This is why education is so expensive

[-] 2 points by turbocharger (1771) 4 months ago

Here's another piece to add to this very true thread:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nyc-man-dies-arrest-caught-video-24620567

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 4 months ago

Here's a BIG piece you keep missing and/or glossing over, Mr. troll.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/07/fundraiser-rick-scott-florida-geo-group

So, what's your plan for the takeover of the Detroit water system?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Here is one more for you to check while I go to your link:

In 1930, Heinrich Bruning became chancellor, ushering in what we would today call “bipartisan austerity” or “fiscal responsibility,” something the United States and its allies helped to impose on Germany, just as the United States and Germany now help to impose it on Greece or Spain. Bruning cut salaries, pensions, social benefits, wages, interest rates, freedom to travel, freedom of the press, and the powers of the parliament. “Yet, paradoxically, his actions were rooted in the conviction that he was defending the republic. Understandably, the republicans began to ask themselves whether there was anything left to defend.”

http://www.phibetaiota.net/2012/04/david-swanson-1939-essay-predicted-hitler-predicts-us-dictatorship/#more-58577

Reading the article - I have to say I've been thinking about what to do with our people that have been to prison. Since they will be career criminals, in Prison, or on Welfare, be unable to get an apartment, and be unable to get jobs. Highest Population of Criminals and Prisoners in the World.

#23 In Nazi Germany, the prisons were absolutely packed.

Right now, the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world by far and the largest total prison population on the entire globe by far.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

This article suggests that Supreme Court, Republican and Democratic parties are part of a larger agenda. The independent politicians only have a voice, not a party. Democrats are probably the ones who could change the direction the country is headed.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Ah you have hit on something here I would like to learn about. I don't see any thing but "status quo" in this country.

Forgive me for pasting a question below about Marx and Engles that I asked Gypsyking. But also want to explore a number of questions.

1) Libertarians work against my economic theory. however politically we can't vote for Romney or Obama since they represent the status quo. I will continue to consider RP for President since I have liberal beliefs regarding a) Prision b) nonviolent crime c) marijuanna d) red light districts e) no war beyond 500 miles from the US f) no CIA g) no DEA h) no support of dictators i) no support of human rights abusers j) no war on drugs k) no corporate lobbying l) no PACs m) no corporate rights n) proof of free and fair elections o) no private banking p) all financial transaction on balance sheet with no acceptions.

But I reserve the right to change my mind on politics.

I beleive in self determination whether gay or black or hispanic or even communist or socialist. Libertarians are almost there except for the stupid idea that gold will make us free. I dont' have any gold. And they beleive in austerity. Austerity will make us all poor and really hit the middle class.


Let me ask the proper place i Hisotry for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles. Industrialist, social scientist, author, political theorist, philosopher, and father of Marxist theory, they both probably contribute deeply to???? what?

Psychology, Socialism, Social understanding, Social Safety Nets, Labor Rights, Equal Rights, Sociology, ....???

Can we set aside communism. It looks like they contributed to communism and that word is verboten (forbidden is both social and political circles). If we learn history we have to survey Marx and Engles.

We know that Lenin and Trotsky turned the work of Marx and Engles into Communism as we know it? And there are few that really want communism today. So if we can get past that what is there to learn?

1) Corporate Behavior 2) Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

There was strong organized labor in the United States until Ronald Reagan broke the air traffic controllers union. The middle class gained ground when labor was organized. Private ownership destroyed the national economy.The commonwealth looks like Swiss cheese.

The middleclass had acquired their own private assets during the last century bought by wages, but the imposition of lower wages and unemployment has crushed the middleclass.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

I have avoided politics for awhile. The 9/11 Truth movement would be a way to push aside the status quo. It appears that Democrats and Republicans don't want the truth to get out. I see 9/11 Truth as a battle between real science and propaganda. A victory for science has to make something better.

The 9/11 Commission is the best our politicians can do with one of the most important events since since the Civil War. More people think we need a new 9/11 investigation.

OWS and 9/11 Truth share common interests.

Mayor Bloomberg's suspension of first amendment freedom of the press rights is an example of the nazification of NewYork City.

Freedom of the Press

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3dQ45DdEwo

[right click]

Here's a documentary on 9 11 Truth activity in NYC. They've been at it since 2001.

The 9 11 Chronicles Part One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yscpNIxjI&feature=related

[right click]

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Thanks. I was thinking of watching a 911 video this morning as I watched something else.

Yup, the best government money can buy. lol or cry out loud.

Yes, we don't teach logic or philosophy any more. Science is the best we have. But we are bombarded with cognitive distortions.

Will try to check you links.

[-] 1 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

I have been keeping an eye on the eerie similarities for a year now. Its like there is a formula the elites use to usher in war. In my view each step has been very intentional by the handful of people at the top with many underlings that may or may not know of their involvement. It is my opinion that we are in a pre-Hitler stage right now, and WWIII is imminent. If we don't expose the names of the oligarchs NOW, we will forever regret it.

I'd wager that if we go back in history, this formula was used to usher in many more wars. People don't know their history, and I'm sure it is intentional with the education system. Again, I will wager that our history books are far from correct.

Thanks Middleaged, for this informative link.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Thanks. It does seem like we don't know History. And it seems that we have heard or known that our Text books were dumbed down for 20 years. My thoughts in the 90s were that parents complain about content in text books as an interest group and demand history be removed. But could it be a deeper conspiracy of the powerful and connected?

I see on the Internet that the 2 big text book publishers are owned by one of the 6 giant media conglomerates. Random House and Harper Collins.

Public Relations came out in World War I as Propaganda. After WWII there were clear new superpowers: Russia and the US. So it seems the US and Russia competed for technologies of power and war. Nazis were aided in their escape through "Ratlines" and the super powers recruited and protected financial managers, scientist, and others. I read that we brought 100K people from Nazi Germany to live in the US with their families. They were assimilated into our government and military and surely later went into a variety of businesses.

I don't really have anything against people of German ancestry, but there is a link to the competitive and strategic nature of US business and government. Today strategic thinking of corporate executives is unbridled. There is no frame work for ethics or morals in strategic thinking. Unless we recognize the US Constitution, labor laws, social safety nets, civil rights, women's rights, and the right to self determination.

And WW III might be under way right now. You only get a WW assigned when there is popular agreement. Richard Steele states that we support 40 dictators around the world. And what is it our military is in 44 different countries? I'm not sure. World Domination is temporary. They say economic domination will replace war, but I don't exactly think war will go away after gulf war I, Iraqi War, and Afghanistan.

World Competition will be fierce. Germany, China, Brazil, India, Russia, and the USA.

Strategic and Geopolitical Leaders will play on our fears and plan out the next 20 years. We need access to resources and these objectives will be met through the CIA, State Dept., DOD, IMF, WB, Federal Reserve, ECB, Wall Street, and US and Global Lobbyist.

Oh we fight for profits, but also: Rare Earth Metals, Petroleum, Energy of any kind, Food, Clean Water, and maybe seeds someday. Clean air?

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

A few random thoughts about your comments. The move in our 'educational' system from actual educating to 'indoctrination' began in the 1920's, around the same time propaganda became 'mass media.' Schools (K - 12, at least) and mass media have been used in conjunction to 'dumb-down' the masses ever since. The evidence is overwhelming.

Your connection between the imported Nazis and the cold ruthlessness of today's politicians and business leaders makes a whole lot of sense. I think you're onto something.

I think I read recently we have military bases in somewhere around 70 countries.

The control of the world's resources is the new frontier. Monsanto and their ilk are going full speed ahead to gain complete domination of the food supply. What they're doing is pure evil. I think it was Kissinger that said something like, "Control the food and you control the world." Kind of explains why Bill Gates, a software pioneer and closet megalomaniac, has bought half a million shares in Monsanto, shares in Cargill, another bigAg business, and a large financial interest in the "World Seed Bank."

Scary times ahead.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes, I heard that Kissinger quote recently.

The link in the US Geopolitics and Corporate Objectives to the Nazi's might just be military officer training, traditions, and doctrine. After all our military officers had to borrow traditions from Europe. Then US Factory Management style adopted theory x style which was really the military style (industrial revolution). Remember the Banana Wars and Smedley Butler was before WWI. US Corporate interests had already gotten the US military to intervene for big business.

Uh, I would love to get some references or links for 'indoctrination' in our education system. I know Public relations actually started in early 1900s and that Edward Bernays worked for the administration of Woodrow Wilson during World War I with the Committee on Public Information. This thinking was heavily shared and influenced by Walter Lippmann (Wikipedia).

Propaganda is a 1928 book by Edward Bernays. It argued that the scientific manipulation of public opinion was necessary to overcome chaos and conflict in society:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_(book)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_warfare

Governments use a variety of techniques to coerce certain actions, thereby gaining relative advantage over an opponent. The techniques include propaganda and psychological operations (PSYOP), which service national and military objectives respectively. Propaganda has many aspects, to include words and images, with a hostile and coercive political purpose. Psychological operations are for strategic and tactical military objectives and may be intended for hostile military and civilian populations.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_Power

That said, military force can sometimes contribute to soft power. Dictators like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin cultivated myths of invincibility and inevitability to structure expectations and attract others to join them. A well-run military can be a source of attraction, and military-to-military cooperation and training programs, for example, can establish transnational networks that enhance a country’s soft power.

Janice Bially Mattern asserts that George W. Bush's use of the phrase "you are either with us or against us" was an exercise in soft power, since no explicit threat was included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I've bookmarked this page. I had a number of bookmarks dealing with the indoctrination we're speaking of, but lost them all when my system crashed about six weeks ago. I will definitely try to find some and get back to you on it.

I have a quote from Walter Lippman that shows the mindset of these individuals. In 1922, he was quoted in 'Public Opinion,' as saying the masses (you and me, of course) were "a bewildered herd" that needed to be guided by a governing class. Sometime later (the '40's maybe? Don't recall), Harold Lasswell, described as a leading political scientist and communications theorist stated the "we (meaning the elite) must recognize the ignorance and stupidity of the masses and not succumb to democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interests." These people obviously have a very low opinion of the "unclean masses." This is the mindset of the pioneers in mass media. Personally, as one who takes pride in my modest intellect, I find that extremely insulting, to say the least.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Ah well there are two sides of the coin again and at least two coins:

1) The educated in history, econonics, history, business, History, and government are better able to lead even if they are wealthy. However there are salons, open forums, colleges, libraries, mentors, biographies, the old cafe's in Paris, pot lucks, community breakfasts, townhall meetings, golf courses, locker rooms, saunas, and neiborhood events - which all expand our minds.

2) Elites or rich beleive they have the right to rule because they have tired to learn the secrets of business, politics, networking, and controling information, but they don't really represnet common people, don't understand having to look for work without a network or contacts or cronys. Only common people understand the true economics and social safety nets that make a country work.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Indeed. It's a complex, confusing, and fascinating world we live in, I must say.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Ah you have hit on something here I would like to learn about.

Forgive me for pasting a question below about Marx and Engles that I asked Gypsyking. But also want to explore a number of questions.

1) Libertarians work against my economic theory. however politically we can't vote for Romney or Obama since they represent the status quo. I will continue to consider RP for President since I have liberal beliefs regarding a) Prision b) nonviolent crime c) marijuanna d) red light districts e) no war beyond 500 miles from the US f) no CIA g) no DEA h) no support of dictators i) no support of human rights abusers j) no war on drugs k) no corporate lobbying l) no PACs m) no corporate rights n) proof of free and fair elections o) no private banking p) all financial transaction on balance sheet with no acceptions.

But I reserve the right to change my mind on politics.

I beleive in self determination whether gay or black or hispanic or even communist or socialist. Libertarians are almost there except for the stupid idea that gold will make us free. I dont' have any gold. And they beleive in austerity. Austerity will make us all poor and really hit the middle class.


Let me ask the proper place i Hisotry for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles. Industrialist, social scientist, author, political theorist, philosopher, and father of Marxist theory, they both probably contribute deeply to???? what?

Psychology, Socialism, Social understanding, Social Safety Nets, Labor Rights, Equal Rights, Sociology, ....???

Can we set aside communism. It looks like they contributed to communism and that word is verboten (forbidden is both social and political circles). If we learn history we have to survey Marx and Engles.

We know that Lenin and Trotsky turned the work of Marx and Engles into Communism as we know it? And there are few that really want communism today. So if we can get past that what is there to learn?

1) Corporate Behavior 2) Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I would have to beg ignorance as to Marx and Engels. I know the names but nothing of their philosophy. I've bookmarked your links. Let me skim the surface of those two men and see what I think.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Thanks. I really haven't read their works. I have seen a lot of derivative work that has gone into novels or fictions. Which for me is easy to read.

I would like to read more, but it takes some concentration.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Really? The rich believe that? How did you know?

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Use your senses man.

seriously if you don't add to the conversation with some detailed response I think you are a troll. And how can I reply if I don't know what you are talking about?

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Hey you started it. I thought this was the place to talk nonsense what with you and your beer buddies spewing nonsense everywhere.

[-] 0 points by ScrewyL (809) 2 years ago

It does seem like we don't know History.

What was your first clue? Was it when we elected the son of a Nazi Drug Lord for president and then let him sign away all of our heritage?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Actually it was Nicaragua 1987 or 1988 there were protesters at the College. History says the Iran Contra Affair came out November 1986. But the Long Hair protestors knew that their were attrocities being committed by Contras, where I don't remember that get any credence in the news.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

WWIII? Against who, Al-Qaeda? Islam? Christians? real Democrats? The climate? All of the above? And for what? More global warming?

[-] 0 points by takim (23) 2 years ago

AGENDA 21 do a search on it. also, do a search on "sustainable development".

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

Suppose humans lack sufficient knowledge about the biosphere to know what sustainable development is. Was there ecosystem harmony before the industrial revolution which meant a 40-year lifespan and perpetual starvation for most humans as seen in undeveloped parts of the globe? Since 1600 the human population has increased from 600 million to 6 billion. Is WWIII supposed to reduce the human population below some ideal number?

Project for the American Century may have a timetable for WWIII as part of its globalization strategy.

[-] -1 points by takim (23) 2 years ago

only a world govt know whats best for you? NO.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

We don't know what's best for us. As separate nations, competition for limited resources has already structured the present. New species are discovered each year. Each year many species become extinct. Some of the extinct species had not been discovered. Humans might eventually learn to sustain the biosphere. They haven't done so, yet.

[-] 0 points by takim (23) 2 years ago

IF, you think that the current administration has your best interests at heart, you're seriously naive.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

The current administration is trapped in the gravitational field of the military-industrial-media complex. Everything they do looks like a bad commercial for the Pentagon and Wall St.

The evidence is overwhelming that the biodiversity on Earth is beyond human understanding. There is probably life thriving where man has never been: remote mountain tops, the ocean floors, arctic seas, tropical rain forests, deserts, volcanos, caves, underground even in the back yard, etc.

Humans may learn to domesticate more animals, plants, fungi, microbes, but some life forms were not meant to be domesticated. Can they be left alone to do whatever they do?

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Thanx for the heads-up takim !

I did a search and found out that this shit is happening in my district !! This area just got redistricted. I knew they were up to something but didn't know what.

UN Agenda 21 - Coming to a Neighborhood near You ;(

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/un_agenda_21_coming_to_a_neigh.html

I didn't know anything about this; but you better believe I'll be doing more research. I urge others to educate themselves and be aware.

Thanks again Cheers

PS - Other search phrases are "Smart Growth, Comprehensive Planning, and Growth Management"

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Those search phrases sound like euphemisms for 'suppression' and 'control.'

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I found them in this article -

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/10/un_agenda_21_coming_to_a_neigh.html

The United Nations Millennium Papers - Issue 2 (page 5) says this of Agenda 21 and smart growth:

Participating in a UN-advocated planning process would very likely bring out many of the conspiracy-fixated groups and individuals in our society such as the National Rifle Association, citizen militias and some members of Congress. This segment of our society who fear 'one-world government' and a UN invasion of the United States through which our individual freedom would be stripped away would actively work to defeat any elected official who joined 'the conspiracy' by undertaking LA21. So, we call our process something else, such as comprehensive planning, growth management, or smart growth [emphasis added].

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I was half joking but apparently closer to the truth than I thought. That's funny. I like how they refer to the NRA and citizen militias as 'conspiracy-fixated groups.' Good link. Agenda 21 is certainly something to be concerned about, and now we have the upcoming Rio summit that seems to advance this agenda.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Yeah, If this is Agenda 21, I wonder what Agenda 1-20 are about. One thing that's apparent is that if they call it Agenda ............. they surely must have one.

Cheers

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure they do. And it's probably not in our best interest.

Cheers to you as well.

[-] 0 points by takim (23) 2 years ago

i'm glad you did the search,..it's real,...............and it's a global.now do a search on the FEMA camps.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I know about the FEMA camps, coffins and trains. Over 800 camps in the US, fully staffed, upgraded, and presently empty, waiting for inhabitants after martial law. It was started in the 1980's through a program called REX 84, Iran-Contra and Oliver North. Multiple Presidential Executive Orders verify their existence. Resembles Nazi Germany

FEMA CAMPS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HtqItvG1Ds

FEMA COFFINS! PROOF OF FEMA CAMP PLANS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FnZLx8J4oM

Oliver North Questioned - Rex 84 Exposed During Iran Contra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0IL7k3elQ

FEMA Executive Orders

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/fema_executive_orders.htm

[-] 2 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

Citizens here and around the country should keep in mind the unfinished business with the 9/11 investigation. Occupy the Romney campaign.

[-] 1 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Many people here are not able to let their minds go that far. Many have tried, but cannot break the safety net that says their own government could never be a part of something that could hurt their own people.

Here is a great link to many false flag events throughout history. Hitler used Reichstag to impose his "war on terror" on the liberties of his own people.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Don't forget that a government agency called NASA was formed from Nazi scientists after WW2 under the code name 'Operation Paperclip'.

http://www.operationpaperclip.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

[-] 4 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

After "paperclip" came MKultra.

http://www.mindspring.com/~txporter/sec3.htm

[-] 2 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

If only everyone understood the significance of your post. I hope they do. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I didn't used to feel this way, but as I've grown older, I feel I must go where the facts lead me and open my mind to ALL possibilities. It truly is a sour pill to swallow, to witness these possibilities become more and more like probabilities.

[-] 1 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Hang in there SparkyJP, there are good people trying to stop it all from happening. There seems to be some headway.

I remember when I first figured it out as well. It was such a shock to learn everthing and I couldn't eat for 3 weeks. I finally made the decision to completely open my mind to the possibility that we have been living a complete lie, that nothing was the truth, with the realization of course that we had nothing to do with it...we had no say in the matter. Once I understood that, I was ok and its been an eye opening experience since then.

[-] 0 points by takim (23) 2 years ago

take a look at AGENDA 21.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

This is a complete misrepresentation of Nazi Germany. The Key feature of Nazi Germany was the blending of the corporation and the state. IB Farbin and other German corporations of the time were arms of the state, totally degregulated, and given carte blanch to do ANYTHING. This, and an economic theory of continuous war and expansion are two primary ways in which the modern US has come to more and more resemble Nazi Germany.

This article makes Nazi Germany appear actually socialist. They were the farthest thing from socialist. They handled issues like the mentally retarded and unwed mothers through imprisonment and genocide. They were a ruthless, profit-driven, state; capitalist in every sense of the word.

This article represents and outrageous distortion, designed with the explicit intent to confuse the issues.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

I kind of agree. This seems like an article with an agenda.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Thank you, it clearly seems to me to have the agenda of misrepresenting the Nazi's as actual socialists. Not too many things here have every made me so angry.

It's an attempt to confuse the issues, I think, and a really low way of going about it at that. Anyone who is willing to whiltewash the Nazis to push their worldview is either really evil, or really desperate, and most likely both.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Yes. The narrowness of the article is telling. But we know we have many unthinking masses that have adapted shallow images of political thought. I think of them and think Nazi although I would not write it or speak it. I'm thinking of defenders of Neocon views.

But I try to be sensitive to the atrosities committed in WWII.

There are many in the US who've never learned about Political Systems, US History, and World History. The unwashed masses?? The many too many?? The misinformed?? The victims of propaganda and control?? Or the result of a mass experiment in Domination and Control of Minds....

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Very well said. I hope we can look forward to further contributions from you here on this forum. Educated voices of reason; the voices of those fluent in Political Systems, US History and World History are exactly what we need here:)

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Thanks. Wish I could say I was educated. My Dad is a genius, but us kids never really learned more than BA level stuff. I'm a slow reader, but not really sure what caused me that. Anyway I make up for slow reading and poor knowledge of history with 30 years of experience in life.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

You present your thoughts well and clearly. I will look forward to seeing more from you here:)

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Let me ask the proper place i Hisotry for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles. Industrialist, social scientist, author, political theorist, philosopher, and father of Marxist theory, they both probably contribute deeply to???? what?

Psychology, Socialism, Social understanding, Social Safety Nets, Labor Rights, Equal Rights, Sociology, ....???

Can we set aside communism. It looks like they contributed to communism and that word is verboten (forbidden is both social and political circles). If we learn history we have to survey Marx and Engles.

We know that Lenin and Trotsky turned the work of Marx and Engles into Communism as we know it? And there are few that really want communism today. So if we can get past that what is there to learn?

1) Corporate Behavior
2) Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Although there are a number of problems with the facts in the article, I don't think Renaye was trying to whitewash the Nazis. Her point, I think, is to show how America is moving closer to fascism.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

I am glad you brought that up. I don't mean my criticism to be aimed at Renaye, but simply at the article itself.

I have also made the mistake of posting things with good intentions that proved to be not what I hoped they were.

I once posted a poll that turned out to be from Al Jazeera! LOL!!!

So, my apologies to Renaye.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Yeah, I think a lot of us have done that. I got flak earlier today for suggesting the Obama gang is capitalizing on the Trayvon case. But then, it's better to go ahead and post it, you never know what might result from dialog with people with different perspectives.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

The thing about Renaye posting this link is that it actually gave us a better opportunity to explore this subject in the depth that was required, and the post has remained very active - so you just never know. I agree, if it seems relevent, post it.

[-] -1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

Nazi Germany was not interested in politics so much as it wanted to achieve world domination. US has achieved most of that. So what's next?

More Democracy?

[-] -1 points by airplaneradio (50) 2 years ago

You do know that Nazi is socialist right. It's in their name. National Socialism = Nationalsozialismus. Yes, they fought communists to bring about their own brand of socialism. Also, are you saying that if a state that calls itself socialist has prisons and genocide, then they are not socialist then?

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

This really has to take the prize for the stupidist comment I've seen on this entire forum.

"Gee, Uncle Adolf wouldn't lie to us, would he mama?"

[-] -1 points by airplaneradio (50) 2 years ago

Right. He used the term socialism for the 'lulz'.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Oh, you we're being ironic? Well, in that case yeah, ha, ha, ha!!!

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

property tax

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What every one seems to overlook is the fact that the Nazi Party was exactly that - "A POLITICAL PARTY" that ran amok was allowed to and captured government then went on to attack societies all around it while also practicing genocide.

That was also a time when the people of the world banded together and fought a bloody war against blatant evil.

[-] 2 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

Except for Prescott Bush, grandaddy of gwb.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

?


[-] 1 points by TruthRightsFreedom (150) 5 minutes ago

Except for Prescott Bush, grandaddy of gwb. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink

[-] 1 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

Prescott Bush, "trading with the enemy".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Basically laws of treason were altered to soften the blow. Then its known that hitler used tactics learned from history and the subjugation of the Indigenous Americans to oppress the Jews in Germany, while Prescott may have dug up Geronimos skull from a military graveyard for the skull and bones of yale.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks for the update - history can be so convoluted ans strange at times.

Gampa Bush who woulda thought?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

MKultra had more effect on mind science than any know. MK is German, short for Mind Kontrol. I just made a post that has proof of a profound issue of memory that is academically impossible without MKultra being in control.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/short-conversation-with-an-apparent-racist-you-dec/#comment-715888

The Church commission that exposed the MKultra project was in 1975. The book linked from that post was published in 1974,

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Okay. You are wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. The corporations in Nazi Germany were completely under Nazi control. One more time:if you think anyone told Hitler (or Mussolini or Franco for that matter) what to do you are a laughably ignorant "person". You need to tell your masters to get a clue.

[-] 4 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism. he said "..Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism," also - "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power".... and .."All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." . i assume you understand the difference between the state and the government - let me know if you need help here. Benito Mussolini Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html#daluWZxdxMO4F7os.99

Benito Mussolini Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benito_mussolini.html#daluWZxdxMO4F7os.99

[-] -3 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

I have read many books on Mussolini and fascism. You, like most others, have no clue as what that "corporate power" was in 20's and 30's italy in reference to said fascism

[-] 2 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

well you have read the wrong books then - i have given you what benito said (he is the one who coined the term) - now it is your turn to refute some of those quotes with your own. it won't work here to assert that you are right and then call it the last word! as to corporate power do you mean something other than what is normally meant? i have a clue and here it is for you. who removed mussolini in 1943 and was there any connection to the captains of industry. oh, what the hell - i will give you what wiki says and you can flounder around for a while trying to build a counter argument - you know what that is right? - Benito Mussolini came to power in 1922 and tried to transform the country's economy along fascist ideology, at least on paper. In fact he was not an economic radical, nor sought a free-hand in the economy. His main interest was to use economic power to politically reshape the Italian state to fit his ideological outlook. He aligned himself with industrial interests and forged a modus vivendi with the ruling groups of Italian capitalism. As in Nazi Germany the economic policies of Mussolini are difficult to define. There is a messy tangle between economic theory and economic practice which leads to two opposing views - either Mussolini had an economic plan, or that he did not, but instead reacted to changes without forward planning.[1].

To proponents of the first view, Mussolini did have a clear economic agenda, both long and short-term, from the beginning of his rule. The government had two main objectives - to modernize the economy, and to remedy the country's lack of strategic resources.

To stimulate development Mussolini pushed the modern capitalistic sector in the service of the state, intervening directly as needed to create a collaboration between the industrialists, the workers, and the state. The government crushed fundamental class conflicts in favour of corporatism. In the short term the government worked to reform the widely-abused tax system, dispose of inefficient state-owned industry, cut government costs, and introduce tariffs to protect the new industries.

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

I am well aware of the rise of fascism in post war Italy. And note that the corporations were a combination f industrialists, WORKERS, and the State. There were other corporations of workers that were essentially a return of the guild system. Coporatism in our time is the corporations on top with government being the enabler. Workers have little if anything to do with it. Yes, there are some unions involved but so little of the workforce is unionized they ultimately don't matter. The military-industrial complex is much larger and more complex now. While I agree with you on the fuzziness of the general economic system in Italy the industrialists did not control Mussolini or the Fascist Grand Council.

And the op is still ridiculous. We are nothing like National Socialist Germany. R Fascist Italy.

[-] 2 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

you are not at all aware - you are way off track here with your worker corporation nonsense. did you answer any of my points - no - who took mussolini out - the king! a worker friendly king i imagine - what nonsense - all part of trying to revise history. the fascists were the party of the rich, the king and industrialists - now this is what you said and it is horseshit - Okay. You are wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. The corporations in Nazi Germany were completely under Nazi control. One more time:if you think anyone told Hitler (or Mussolini or Franco for that matter) what to do you are a laughably ignorant "person". You need to tell your masters to get a clue..so back off shit for brains and tell me how the king dumped benito - i thought nobody told him what to do! go serve your corporate masters on some other site - quisling!

[-] -2 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Okay, you understand nothing. Talk about shit for brains! Go away red scum.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Did you call flip a republican???

That is low.

[-] -2 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Go away filth. You are the enemy of everything good.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Shut up! He's no teabagger. Although, you just might be.

That reminds me. Are you going to say anything worthwhile?

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Are you looking in the mirror? You do realize that the image you see there ( you Know Re-flec-tion?) is you? You do? GOOD. Well then you must know that you can't leave you. Right? ( Mic Check Mic Check - trolls can't run away from themselves...can they? What? Catatonia? Huh, guess I never looked at it that way before) Well have an aspirin and the headache from trying to comprhend reality should ease up in a bit. That is no reason to go catatonic - is it?

[-] -2 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

You truly think you and your mindset are good, don't you? Amazing!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Play to the crowd that's what your here for - Right?

Comic relief?

[-] 1 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

no answers -you said this "One more time:if you think anyone told Hitler (or Mussolini or Franco for that matter) what to do you are a laughably ignorant "person". this is laughably wrong as i am sure you have found out since. you do know how to use google right? i guess you are used to talking to fools and rich men. how old are you 12?? now don't get mad - nazi scum. can you at least tell me about the king and benito since somebody told him to go away - or did that not happen either. and by the way - did you look up quisling? you might do some reading on the partisans in italy - very interesting - they drove the germans out of northern italy on their own - set up worker run factories and sent the landlords packing. of course when the americans came in they put everything back to where you and your nazi scum like things - workers under the heel of the industrialists - look it up and then look up quisling!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Mussolini, the creator of fascism, said it should have been actually called corporatism, because it was the blending of corporations and the state. The symblol of fascism represents the welding of the different arms of the state with the objective of consolidated power - the reverse of the separation of the different aspects of the state, for the purpose of human liberty, adoped by the founders. Nazi Germany was the reverse of socialism. It is you that are, unsurprizingly, woefully ignorant.

[-] -3 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

And you don't even know what the fasces represents. And you don't know what constituted those corporations. Has it ever occurred to you immature mind that maybe you DO NOT know everything?

[+] -4 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Again, I would be embarrassed to post such nonsense. You can't spell, you can't formulate a sentence, and you obviously haven't studied history. Where did you learn this stuff?

[-] 4 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

I love how you resort to personal attacks instead of rebutting the issue. I don't see any misspellings in GypsyKing's post either...

[-] -3 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

There is one that catches my eye, but that's here nor there.

Gypsie's argument is simply absurd.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Damn Zombie, You got burned. Mussolini was a tool of corporate interests. The difference between communism and fascism is whose boot is on whose neck. Capitalism blended with republicanism is nothing more than Fascism. Socialism is the only true form of democracy, unless you live in a nation of half wits who are conditioned to vote for their favorite Corporate big wig. The fact that those who run our economy also run our democracy can be nothing more than Fascism. Corporatism is just a euphemism for the third Reich. When bankers can implode the economy and still control the political discourse, you look like an idiot calling our nation a republic, let alone a democracy. We live in a oligarchy at best.

[-] 7 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism. he said "..Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism," also - "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power".... and .."All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." . i assume you understand the difference between the state and the government a bit more here. "Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal." and one more - The seeds of fascism, however, were planted in Italy. "Fascism is reaction," said Mussolini, but reaction to what? The reactionary movement following World War I was based on a rejection of the social theories that formed the basis of the 1789 French Revolution, and whose early formulations in this country had a major influence on our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights.

It was Rousseau who is best known for crystallizing these modern social theories in . The progeny of these theories are sometimes called Modernism or Modernity because they challenged social theories generally accepted since the days of Machiavelli. The response to the French Revolution and Rousseau, by Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, and others, poured into an intellectual stew which served up Marxism, socialism, national socialism, fascism, modern liberalism, modern conservatism, communism, and a variety of forms of capitalist participatory democracy.

Fascists particularly loathed the social theories of the French Revolution and its slogan: "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity."

*** Liberty from oppressive government intervention in the daily lives of its citizens, from illicit searches and seizures, from enforced religious values, from intimidation and arrest for dissenters; and liberty to cast a vote in a system in which the majority ruled but the minority retained certain inalienable rights.

*** Equality in the sense of civic equality, egalitarianism, the notion that while people differ, they all should stand equal in the eyes of the law.

*** Fraternity in the sense of the brotherhood of mankind. That all women and men, the old and the young, the infirm and the healthy, the rich and the poor, share a spark of humanity that must be cherished on a level above that of the law, and that binds us all together in a manner that continuously re-affirms and celebrates life.

This is what fascism as an ideology was reacting against_and its support came primarily from desperate people anxious and angry over their perception that their social and economic position was sinking and frustrated with the constant risk of chaos, uncertainty and inefficiency implicit in a modern democracy based on these principles. Fascism is the antithesis of democracy. We fought a war against it not half a century ago; millions perished as victims of fascism and champions of liberty." ......sound familiar?

[-] 2 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

I think your clock has been unplugged or needs rewinding. What you wrote is essentially correct though. WWII was 70 years ago. Franklin Roosevelt was selected to solve the problems of The Great Depression with the New Deal 80 years ago. The existence of American Fascists during this time period has been overlooked in this discusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRw-OQYDe2M&list=PLAABD0339940FC76A&feature=view_all

[-] 2 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

a little late to the party don't you think? not sure if you read much of the discussion but your comments are off base anyway. same fight today as 70 yrs ago but that is not important to the idea that the fascists are the tools of corporations and industrialists. your video is wrong right at the start - fdr was not interested in saving democracy - he and keynes were very explicit in saying that they wanted to save capitalism. if you are one of the fools who equate the two then that would be another discussion.

[-] 2 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

it seems that Roosevelt was more democratic in attempts to involve ordinary people in the decision making. It was democracy that needed saving. I am sure you know what the New Deal was. Banks had failed. Wall St had failed. Agriculture had failed. The government had to intervene because the private sector wouldn't.

A group of capitalists offered $30 million for Gen. SmedleyButler to lead a military coup against FDR. Butler turned them in. The capitalists were not tried for treason. They didn't even have to testify before Congress. Sounds a lot like the 9-11 Commission.

The fascist nazis and communist overseas threats were not imminent, but the domestic fascists posed a greater threat and merely went underground for a generation or two.

[-] 2 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

don't agree with your version of history - the commies posed a threat at home in the form of union organizing - fdr was not really getting ordinary people in the decision making process. i know about smedley - here is a bit of chomsky on the depression - "There was militant labor union organizing going on, especially from the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations). It was getting to the point of sit-down strikes, which are frightening to the business world -- you could see it in the business press at the time -- because a sit-down strike is just a step before taking over the factory and running it yourself. The idea of worker takeovers is something which is, incidentally, very much on the agenda today, and we should keep it in mind. Also New Deal legislation was beginning to come in as a result of popular pressure. Despite the hard times, there was a sense that, somehow, “we’re gonna get out of it.”

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

WWII didn't start until 1941. The Capitalists would have paid $30 million to Butler to overthrow Roosevelt in 1934. They didn'tknow what else to do with $30 million laying around. Why didn't they use that money to create jobs?

Roosevelt was more interested in seeing his New Deal policies succeed than having revenge and putting these most wealthy citizens involved in the conspiracy on trial and tried for treason.

Your Chomsky reference refers to a tiny part of labor history in the United States.

In the 4th century A.D., the Roman Empire had a whopping 175 holidays in a year, In the Middle Ages, people were obligated to work eight hours a day, six days a week, excluding holidays. In around the year 1800, a 14-hour work day was customary in the U.S. for men, women and children. This was largely due to the Industrial Revolution.

In 1840, President Martin Van Buren issued an executive order that laborers and mechanics be limited to working 10 hours in a day. The International Labor Organization held its first conference in Oct. 1919 that “Hours of Work” convention established an 8- or 9-hour work day, which constituted a max of 48 hours worked per week.

When the Great Depression hit, in an effort to avoid layoffs, President Herbert Hoover proposed a bill that would reduce the work week to 30 hours. It passed in Senate; however, it didn’t make it through the House.

Today in the Age of Computers there are IT workers working 12 hours a day, 80 hours aweek, while being paid for only 40. Computerized sweatshops have been around since the 1970s.

The companies still go out of business: Enron, Lehman Bros, WorldCom went out of busines after a flurry of mergers and acquisitions, and left their workers on the curb. Workers might have saved these companies if they had been managing them.

[-] 1 points by flip (7631) 2 years ago

most of what you say is correct but has nothing to do with the topic from before - this is where you are wrong -"Roosevelt was more democratic in attempts to involve ordinary people in the decision making. It was democracy that needed saving. - he was not very democratic and was saving capitalism not democracy!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Thanks, flip.

[-] 6 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Has the idea that a dictator can collude with corporations, even more easily than a false democracy can, never occurred to these guys?

Nazi Germany was the very essence of a hierarchical society, of top-down control, whereas both democracy and socialism are bottom-up power structures, where the needs and liberty of the individual are represented above the will of the corporations and the various aspects of the state.

To suggest otherwise is a truely sickening form of historical revisionism.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Well said. Now you have given those in seeming denial much food for thought which they will of coarse turn into their continued spewing of non-sense and out right shit - trolls - bless their pointy little heads for pointing out truth by frantic denial.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Unbelieveable.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I must disagree those who are denying I do believe on this forum are probably at least 99% trolls ( what a roll reversal for percentages ) and are not oblivious they are just opposed. It is the other 1% that I am concerned about and in agreement with you about ( ha ha ha 1% and concerned hahaheeehe) what a consistent roll hey ? 1% living in denial Ha.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Yes, I think this is essentially a troll thread, and I generally don't even comment on those threads at all, but there is a limit.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Oh I agree. I was just commenting on the humor of the situation. 99% of the attackers on this site being trolls and 1% being genuinely confused or misinformed.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Depends what version of democracy and socialism. Participatory democracy (seeded with the aspirations of the anarchist tradition), indeed, very bottom up. Socialism in the Robert Owen tradition, again, very bottom up (but these aren't the only ways these terms are applied, unfortunately).

[-] 1 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

That article contains many distortions. These articles don't:

Fascism Anyone? The 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/02/20/fascism_anyone_the_14_defining_characteristics_of_fascism

Freedom to Fascism Redux: A Timeline of Recent U.S. History:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/13/freedom_to_fascism_redux_a_timeline_of_recent_us_history

The fascist takeover of America IS almost complete. And who we "elect" in November - Bushbama, Romney, or Pinto the Wonderhorse - will have little if any impact one way or the other.

[+] -4 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I want to sign up for your newsletter. It's amazing how much interesting information comes out of your head

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

This is an aside. When I'm talking to you guys, I never know if I'm talking to an actual individual, or one of the multiple bots run by this movement's paid detractors. That is one of the most effective objectives of those paid detractors. I makes a meeting of the minds nearly impossible. Over time you simply come assume that you are dealing with totally intransigent, paid provocaturs, who have no real interest in serious dialogue, and it is very difficult to tell the difference.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Do you really think there are computers writing posts to annoy you? Could a computer program possibly annoy you as much as I do? I doubt it. This is good, old-fashioned, gray matter.

I wish I was getting paid to post here. Sounds like I need to get a hold of the Koch brothers.

You are incapable of serious dialog. You have a mindset that doesn't allow you to take in new information. You've posted over 6,000 times and yet you haven't learned a single thing. The same nonsense keeps coming out of your brain. Sign me up for the newsletter.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Hey, where'd zombie go, or are you zombie's zombie? Your pretense of not knowing what I'm talking about as far as bots are concerned is disingenuous, and goes to show your disregard for the truth. It is the truth that you can't or won't come to grips with. That has nothing to do with me, and is why your personal life is undoubtably a complete mess.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I am zombie's subprogram "mikeinohio". I was created by Koch Industries. Zombie had to go in for a software upgrade. He'll be back tomorrow.

Hey, how did you know my personal life is a mess? My computer wife, Karen, is angry that I post too much on OWS.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Lol!! Well, you have a sense of humor anyway. There's hope. Now, if you just abandon slytherin, repent, and chose to live a decent life you may still re-create your self-respect. But you need to stop defending the Nazis.

[-] -1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I hoped you would enjoy that!

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Corporatism as used by Fascists does not mean the same thing as the popular interpretation used today, which is more like the definition of a corporatocracy.

Corporatism in fascism is the dividing up of the country's social organization into various departments, much like a company.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Republicanism is a contest between the Gov't and the Capitalist to get your vote.

lol. So in essence, Are you voting for a Socialist or a Fascist, respectively, come this November?

I think that is the problem with the current system. Everything is too quickly seen as "either" or "or", respectively, of course. :) I'm still for "either," at this point. lol

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Many here would disagree with you, vehemently about this. I for one see the coming election as not being much different than those of the last 40 years... one of lesser of two evils.... which leaves you with evil none the less.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

While i agree, there is still a difference between getting stung by a bee and getting bitten by a cobra. Both inject venom, but only is far more likely to kill you. The scale of each of the two evils is enormously different.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

thank you

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I see the distinction you are making. Fascist styled Corporatism is more the compartmentalization of society, kinda like '1984," whereas Corporatism today is just describing an overly influential block of the electorate. I'll admit that my post was a little hyperbolic, but I do believe that the form of government that we have is closer akin to Fascism than Republicanism.

Note: I meant to say Republicanism is more akin to fascism than Democracy. If democracy was a ten, capitalism/republicanism would be a four on the totalitarian chart.

I believe IBM and Volkwagon's stock holders , back in the day, had some pull with Hitler and Mussoline; to think otherwise is to not contemplate the "here and now" when judging the "the then and how."

Just for a little hyperbolic humor: next time you watch the SOTU Speech tell me what those bounded twigs to the left of the VP and the right of the Speaker are?

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Just for a little hyperbolic humor, next time you watch the SOTU speech tell me what those bounded twigs to the left of the VP and the right of the speaker are?

LOL... that is humorous. I never noticed them. For those that don't know:

"The traditional Roman fasces consisted of a bundle of birch rods, tied together with a red leather ribbon into a cylinder, and often including a bronze axe (or sometimes two) amongst the rods, with the blade(s) on the side, projecting from the bundle. They were carried by the lictors who accompanied the magistrates. The axe often represents the power over life or death through the death penalty, although after the laws of the twelve tables, no Roman magistrate could summarily execute a Roman citizen.[3] It was used as a symbol of the Roman Republic in many circumstances, including being carried in processions, much the way a flag might be carried today."

"The term is related to the modern Italian word fascio, used in the 20th century to designate peasant cooperatives and industrial workers' unions.

Numerous governments and other authorities have used the image of the fasces for a symbol of power since the end of the Roman Empire. It has also been used to hearken back to the Roman republic, particularly by those who see themselves as modern-day successors to the old republic and/or its ideals. Italian Fascism, which derives its name from the fasces, arguably used this symbolism the most in the 20th century.

The British Union of Fascists also used it in the 1930s. However, unlike (for example) the swastika, the fasces, as a widespread and long-established symbol in the West, has avoided the stigma associated with much of fascist symbolism, and many authorities continue to display them, including the federal government of the United States."

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

In a true democracy then you have to give the people what they want, the majority rule. And the majority here would vote for capitalism over the current corportism, and certainly over socialism.

"Republicanism" is about as far from fascism as liberalism. The further right you go, the less the right wants the gov involved, much less empowering the multinationals and drowning out the mom and pops.

You may even say, though I wouldnt, that liberalism is closer to fascism because the liberals tend to favor gov intervention more.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I'd say the further right you go the less the capitalist wants the average person to have access to gov't. That don't mean they wouldn't want a little gov't for themselves. Capitalists only hate gov't when gov't ain't working for them, kinda like a spoiled child who cries when he does not get the attention he believes he deserves. My point is righties like gov't as much as lefties, they just have to pretend to dislike Gov't to get the vote. lol

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The politicians, yes. The voters, no. The politicians are supposed to represent the people.

But as usual, the only thing the politicians represent is the gov merging with the mulit nationals and big lobbying industries.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I agree with that statement.

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

You need to brush up on your history. Mussolini was no ones puppet until the establishment of the Italian Socialist Republic. And NOBODY here has a fucking clue as to what real Corporatism is. Classic Coporatism has nothing to do with what is called corporatism in this country. The ignorance around here is astounding.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

You probably read "Animal Farm" and never even contemplated that the book could have implications to modern day America. And the reason your mind didn't go there is because your professor did not guide it in that direction. Here in America we are all free but industrialists and the wealthy are freer.

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

That is the single most ignorant thing I've seen in a while. You need to....never mind.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

my point exactly. Thank you!

[-] 0 points by Devoghe (40) 2 years ago

Have you seen 'Animal Farm'? Its on youtube. You should give it a looksee! Wouldn't hurt to open up the brain a little.

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[-] -3 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Another history expert enlightens us with their wisdom! It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Where did you do to school?

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

It's called reading and thinking for one's self. You should really try it. Your adherence to schooled knowledge makes you an indoctrinated dim wit. The statement "Where are your credentials" is a true sign of a person who suffers from group think. See, the fact that you ask for my credentials shows me you are nothing more than a evolved Brown shirt. Papers, papers, please show me your papers.

[-] -3 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I never asked you about credentials.

The fact that you didn't go to school doesn't make you ignorant. I just don't understand what books you have been reading. Is MSNBC now publishing a revised history of the world?

[-] -1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Zombie, you are now trying to debate one of the craziest OWSters of all time.

Please remember this simple theory; it will serve you well. The higher the posting "score", the crazier the poster. I think Gypsy is the grand champion.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

So you are going to stop posting and switch to a new username when you reach what count? What is number too high for you?

[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

I'm praying that my number will go negative eventually. I've reduced it by 50 today!

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

I know. Maybe I'm a masochist....

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

The points don't matter. What matters is the truth. If you come to genuinely seek the truth you will not take "points" seriously one way or the other.

If I opposed the message of Occupy, I would consider a low score a compliment. The point is, what we need to do here is seek the truth and forget competition. The survival of the world is truely at stake here, and we need to put our egos and preconceptions aside to work honestly for the greater good of humanity.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

7 The economy of Nazi Germany was very highly socialized. (People don't realize that War, War Material, and Soldiers are paid in the same way as social programs - Centrally Planned, Centrally Funded, out of Taxpayer money).

The President of the US, Congress, the military, Retired military, and the disabled military all get socialized medicine. We don't mind paying for military medicine and we have a duty to see that disabled and wounded get good medical care. But people don't think of these kinds of social programs. And some military would never think of themselves as getting social benefits. Congress gets a free pass from the MSM, of course, for it's social benefits.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Have you seen Robert Reich Connect the Dots in Beyond Outrage. Point 6 is about 1 minute into it and he points out how we end up turned against each other fighting for what we can in a Vicious Cycle.

http://robertreich.org/post/21230466829

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Supreme court rules Strip Searches For Everyone

Since the 90's sanctions and bombs have killed over 1 million people.

End the wars.

We the people are supposed to control our government. It's in the constitution.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PsTgqdiDI&feature=related

Fascist Coupe vs Franklin Roosevelt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRw-OQYDe2M&list=PLAABD0339940FC76A&feature=plpp_play_all [right click]

The Bailouts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvBwZcmgZwI&list=PL93AE62BCCCBB692F&feature=view_all [right click]

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

NAZI’s are such bad role models. Is this where President Obama is taking us?

FDR - MCI - GOP + The New Deal http://www.youtube.com/watch?playnext=1&index=0&feature=&v=TRw-OQYDe2M&list=PLB2D49C0052A45996 [right click]

Globalisation is the final march to the "New World Order", dominated by Wall Street and the U.S. military-industrial complex. September 11, 2001 provides a justification for waging a war without borders. Washington's agenda consists in extending the frontiers of the American Empire to facilitate complete U.S. corporate control, while installing within America the institutions of the Homeland Security State.

War and Globalization + The Truth Behind 9 11 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3117338213439292490#docid=-2151801911010073280 [right click]

After 10 years of US occupation Iraq is not pacified. The purpose of the war on Iraq was to loot it of petroleum.

Can a world without Christianity be imagined? Imagine a world of mostly Muslims, Hindu and atheists. All temples destroyed. I doubt it would be possible. It seems such a world would be embroiled in sectarian fighting between Muslim sects, Hindu and atheists. This conspiracy would be doomed.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

If this were a Nazi state, you would, - right now, this second - be carted off to a gas chamber, your body melted down and turned into a bar of soap. And your entire family would suffer the same fate.

You would not have the right to post anything here or anywhere else that would not support the state. If this were a Nazi state, you would not even have to commit the "crime" of writing this. If you looked different, you would find the same fate.

This country has some problems, deep ones that are harming people here and around the globe. That's a given. That's why we're here in in opposition to that government, its corruption, and the cruel excesses of capitalism and the corrosion and inequality its unfettered workings create. But hyperbole and melodramatic false equivalencies do not help that effort. Instead, they serve to make a mockery of them. It is buffoonery.

Most of my family was wiped off the face of the earth by nazis. My mother survived (never again to be whole) Auschwitz. Your comparing what the US is to that horror serves to suck the meaning of the monstrosity of that history to make it a convenient and frivolous point of rhetoric. It is obscene, not simply in terms of the US, but in terms of eviscerating the meaning of that real horror, minimizing it to the scale of a glib and facile talking point, and shitting on the memory of the tens of millions who perished from it.

Until you see cases of bars of soap that are the remains of your grandfather and grandmother and aunts and uncles and cousins AS I HAVE, you don't have the right to compare the US to Nazis. Have you see pictures of Buchenwald? Your false equivalence is offensive beyond words.

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[-] 0 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

epa1nter, to avoid a Nazi state, one has to be able to notice the tendancy, and stop it.

FAIL!

[-] -1 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

That article contains many distortions. These articles don't:

Fascism Anyone? The 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/02/20/fascism_anyone_the_14_defining_characteristics_of_fascism

Freedom to Fascism Redux: A Timeline of Recent U.S. History:

http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/13/freedom_to_fascism_redux_a_timeline_of_recent_us_history

The fascist takeover of America IS almost complete. And who we "elect" in November - Bushbama, Romney, or Pinto the Wonderhorse - will have little if any impact one way or the other.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Yeah, go fuck yourself.

[-] -2 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

Facts are facts.

Some people don't like facts. Some people refuse to accept facts. And some people's very livelihood if not existence is threatened by facts.

And YOU? Obviously one, probably some, possibly all of the above.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

The fact is, you couldn't post this in a fascist country. None of us could.

The fact is there are no gas chambers here. The fact is that minorities are not being wiped out here systematically and their skins made into lamp shades.

The fact is you are engaging in the most destructive kind of hyperbole there is. It acts, not to strengthen resolve to change real abuses, but to dismiss those abuses as the ravings of a psychotic.

And it robs all meaning and import of real Nazi crimes. It pisses on the open graves of those who were murdered by the millions by real Nazis.

It is offensive beyond words.

[-] 3 points by Yin7 (44) 2 years ago

Well said, this sensational thread is transparent. It is pathetic that people on both sides of the fence are led so easily by hyperbole.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I guess we are just too in tuned with the media culture we live with. If fox news and MSNBC can be hyperbolic, why can't I. At least I admit it.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

You can, but you lose all credibility when you you do it. And worse, you become the very thing you criticize.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

The way I see it, and this view was gained way before Occupy Wall Street was even conceived, is that we are an empire in decline, and we have two ways to go. We can either go the way of Nazi Germany, with a big bang, or the way of the USSR, with a whimper. I'd prefer the latter, but if no one can even contemplate that it's possible to go out like the former, then we are deluding ourselves.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Please see my comment below.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Well, in regards to every thing I wrote on this blog, it may be a little hyperbolic, but if someone can't even entertain the notion that we are going down a fascist road, I don't think they have really viewed the problem we are experiencing. Alec, the bankers bailout, and the military industrial complex screams fascism, and if everyone is too hopped up on American exceptionlism, how are they ever going to change directions?

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It was not the word "fascist I objected to, but the word "Nazi" which has very specific implications.

I object to ALEC as much as you do, and have been aware of ALEC and its evil long before Occupy or this forum. I was on the picket lines before we invaded Iraq. I have always looked at American "exceptionalism" as dangerous and self-serving mythology.

As I said, I was organizing labor for the union against the greed and theft of unscrupulous owner staring over 30 years ago. I led student walk-outs over the corporate take-overs that NYU was engaging in 35 years ago.

So I'm not new to the revelation that corporations are greedy criminal organizations. I'm not new to the understanding the corporate interests, always at play, have systematically and with increasing velocity undermined the very fabric of our civil society starting mostly with Reagan.

But I still know the difference between that and what actual Nazis did. And I object to that horror being belittled. I object to it relegated to a glib talking point. Doing so undermines the credibility of one's stance about the real problems, which are severe, and also renders horrors beyond imagining meaningless. I don't piss on graves. I honor them. And those of us in OWS, who profess to seek justice, who profess to speak truth to power, are the LAST people who should be engaged in shameful distortion. That kind of distortion is among the very things we are fighting. I expect it from the right wing. I condemn it when it starts with us. We should be better than that.

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[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I understand the point you are making. Two wrongs don't make a right, well in politics it does, lol, kidding of course. I get your point, and I'll try to contain myself. It is just hard when the right so brazenly degrades the class of Americans that I have the most respect for, the working class. Again, I'll try to contain my disparaging remarks.

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[-] 1 points by Yin7 (44) 2 years ago

I hear you. Why can't all people be on the same team? Will this wish be always a dream? The rich think they are more entitled to the world and that the poor are undeserving. It's been this way since & before the first monkey climbed down from the tree. It will probably always be. Woe is we.

[-] 0 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

This would be credible if you were also arguing to defend the constitution with Article V. BTW, are you ready to do that? Can we discuss constitutional natural law?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

If anyone begins to resemble fascism in this country, it is Libertarians.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 2 years ago

Ah you have hit on something here I would like to learn about.

Forgive me for pasting a question below about Marx and Engles that I asked Gypsyking. But also want to explore a number of questions.

1) Libertarians work against my economic theory. however politically we can't vote for Romney or Obama since they represent the status quo. I will continue to consider RP for President since I have liberal beliefs regarding a) Prision b) nonviolent crime c) marijuanna d) red light districts e) no war beyond 500 miles from the US f) no CIA g) no DEA h) no support of dictators i) no support of human rights abusers j) no war on drugs k) no corporate lobbying l) no PACs m) no corporate rights n) proof of free and fair elections o) no private banking p) all financial transaction on balance sheet with no acceptions.

But I reserve the right to change my mind on politics.

I beleive in self determination whether gay or black or hispanic or even communist or socialist. Libertarians are almost there except for the stupid idea that gold will make us free. I dont' have any gold. And they beleive in austerity. Austerity will make us all poor and really hit the middle class.


Let me ask the proper place i Hisotry for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engles. Industrialist, social scientist, author, political theorist, philosopher, and father of Marxist theory, they both probably contribute deeply to???? what?

Psychology, Socialism, Social understanding, Social Safety Nets, Labor Rights, Equal Rights, Sociology, ....???

Can we set aside communism. It looks like they contributed to communism and that word is verboten (forbidden is both social and political circles). If we learn history we have to survey Marx and Engles.

We know that Lenin and Trotsky turned the work of Marx and Engles into Communism as we know it? And there are few that really want communism today. So if we can get past that what is there to learn?

1) Corporate Behavior 2) Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

[-] -1 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

Experience has shown me that is true. But what is the natural law most vital to constitutional restoration?

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

There is no such thing as natural law. It is a rhetorical devise alone, cited exclusively by Libertarians to justify absolute property rights. All law governing human social interaction is made by humans.

Do you mean reasonable or effective? That's a different question.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

Many aspects of natural law reflect biological facts of evolution. Laws of nature that the human unconscious existence appreciates with peaceful progress and development of human society.

For example, free speech, is natural law. Naturally, if it is not allowed, there is societal failure, war, dysfunction or other human caused calamity.

What did that have to do with libertarians?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I have no idea what you're talking about, or what relevance it has to this thread. I have no idea what you mean when you use the phrase "natural law". I have no basis fro either agreeing with or disputing your assertion that free speech is a natural law, since you don't define the term.

Libertarians construct law to be only legitimate if they are "natural" based on what they call natural rights. (Life, liberty, etc.) That's what I thought TruthRightsFreedom was referring to. Apparently, he wasn't . But that leaves me in confusion about what he (or you) are trying to say. And again, I have no idea how that relates to anything in this thread.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

Study some history and philosophy to see the basis for many of the US laws. They are rooted in natural law.

Natural law is easy to see in the Magna Carta, where life and liberty are protected.

I think TRF was referring to freedom of speech as working to protect life and liberty, like I am. It's part of the Article V preparatory amendment strategy that is presented here. I've seen TRF post that link here before.

The nazi will not respect natural law for any except themselves and then refer to it as a privilage they have earned. We are seeing this from corporations and government. This thread is an appropriate observation of this factor.

Yea, nazism is a problem, and Article V is the solution, but those preparatory amendments really make a secure convention strategy.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I am not convinced that Article V is the solution. I would have to think more about its implications, its possible unintended consequences.

And i am completely opposed to the notion of "natural" law. Laws and rights are written by people, not nature. Nature does not grant us any right, not even the right to live. It gives us abilities and desires, but rights are granted by society alone. A lion or bear recognizes no right for us to live. It either views us as a threat, a meal, or something not worth bothering with. OUr rights exist because we negotiated those rights with each other, person to person.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I think an Article V convention should wait ( be planned - YES ) until we have much more direct participation in the Democratic Process by The People. We have some important issues to resolve prior to such a convention to insure that the process would not be stolen/co-opted and to get a strong participation by The People.

We are making progress in promoting public awareness and involvement. Let us be strong in unity of participation - then we can tackle the need for an Article V convention. Let us be careful not to get the cart in front of the horse. We have plenty to accomplish prior.

So lets get to it.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

It seems that is exactly what Christopher Brown proposes, to use an Article V itself to empower and secure the democratic process.

I can find no reasonable flaw in the strategy, and I've seen no one else can either, or they don't post it. They simply respond to the fears that are being put out.

Our democratic process has been co-opted, and that's what the preparation strategy addresses. What's really cool is that he emphasizes free speech. The logic is solid. How can people act democratically if the info they have to make opinion is inaccurate. Or worse. Reverse engineered information from media and alt sources inducing the public to choose what they don't want.

I recognize that all of the true authorities of constitutional intent are getting too old to be involved, or have passed on. What replaces them has little or no academic credential, because what they suggest is so patently wrong and serving elements of confusion and misdirection, that voters actually end up voting for the opposite of what they need.

I wanted to give epa1nter a more info on the specific proposed amendment that Brown proposes to end the abridging of free speech. I'd been over this page back in December when I first became interested in Article V, even though I've known its a bit of a mystery for years, (why there hasn't been one). This page explains how an ancient doctrine of natural law, probably from the Native Americans, was cut up and pieces used in the Declaration of Independence and the First amendment of the Bill of Rights. He proposed putting all of the elements of natural law back together in a revision of the First Amendment. Check the "implementation", I've forgotten that. So reasonable even a conservative can see that if Americans are to have what they need to defend the constitution, they can fairly gain access to national commercial networks at prime time in order to defend the constitution and preserve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html

Here's the revised First Amendment from that page.

**It seems that is exactly what Christopher Brown proposes, to use an Article V itself to empower and secure the democratic process.

I can find no reasonable flaw in the strategy, and I've seen no one else can either, or they don't post it. They simply respond to the fears that are being put out.

Our democratic process has been co-opted, and that's what the preparation strategy addresses. What's really cool is that he emphasizes free speech. The logic is solid. How can people act democratically if the info they have to make opinion is inaccurate. Or worse. Reverse engineered information from media and alt sources inducing the public to choose what they don't want.

I recognize that all of the true authorities of constitutional intent are getting too old to be involved, or have passed on. What replaces them has little or no academic credential, because what they suggest is so patently wrong and serving elements of confusion and misdirection, that voters actually end up voting for the opposite of what they need.

I wanted to give epa1nter a more info on the specific proposed amendment that Brown proposes to end the abridging of free speech. I'd been over this page back in December when I first became interested in Article V, even though I've known its a bit of a mystery for years, (why there hasn't been one). This page explains how an ancient doctrine of natural law, probably from the Native Americans, was cut up and pieces used in the Declaration of Independence and the First amendment of the Bill of Rights. e http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html

REV. Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Congress shall see that nothing abridges the freedom of speech and the primary methods or systems of it shall be first accessible for the unity of the people with its possible greater meaning through understanding one another in; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Congress shall see that nothing abridges freedom of the press in its service to the unity of the people; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances or defense of this constitution.

In other reading at his site I found that this passage that nothing abridges the freedom of speech and the primary methods or systems of it shall be first accessible for the unity of the people is intended to return the usenet to the citizens like they originally paid for it, but congress and corporations ripped it off.

Can you imagine a global message board where free speech rules and moderators are bound to the constitution because the servers are on government property? Wooooooooo hooo! Censorship on forums sucks, we need the usenet back. I back this strategy 100%.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

If no one is willing to do it now, 8 months into OWS, then that time wont ever come. The fact that people are scared to do it, with the entire global financial system on life support, is very telling of our ability to govern ourselves.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

epa1nter wrote: "Human laws consist of a combination of rights, responsibilities, and prohibitions. The may or may not be logical, based on observation of nature, or anything else. They are simply agreed to by people. Many cultures have laws that seem completely arbitrary and even cruel to an outside viewer. Since all people have the same essential nature, nature itself does not account for these sometimes extreme variations in social organization."

I agree with most of that. But the anthropocentric view won't work with the common western deficit relating to the fact that from the beginning of time oral histories kept in the unconscious mind with very deep forms of hypnosis, driven out by crusades, conquest and colonization, then removed from history. The oral histories very often were arrested in odd or awkward moments for many people as this catastrophe were happening, leaving wholy unreasonable fixations residing in the populations society. Sometimes these societal feature did just happen on their own and became fixed.

All that is another subject, but needed to be broached to explain that such activities, despite our ignorance of then are completely natural.

epa1nter wrote: "Your definition seems based on an esoteric weaving together of personal references. It is not a position recognized by any living legal professional or scholar I am aware of."

The definition has LOTS of history. I found this with one search using these terms, natural law, stoic law

http://www.enotes.com/natural-law-theory-reference/natural-law-theory

Wanna' see something esoteric. This graphic shows the relative proportions of your mental existence both conscious and unconscious for one year.

http://i41.tinypic.com/a15nx3.jpg

I will say that the "weaving" is not "esoteric" it is truly of the sacred knowledge of our constitution, despite any sabotage it may have suffered you may not be aware of, but I am.

epa1nter wrote: "I m suspicious of the term. It has been abused too often by despots. Laws should be decided based on ethics alone, not science or an incomplete understanding (at best) of our nature or nature in general. The good of all has not been determined to be a natural law at all. But it has been determined by ethics to be the most desirable."

(By the way, you should know that I'm getting a virus alert when I click our your link.)

I see your point but also realize that with our societies common perceptions of free speech and what is possible that you cannot imagine that citizens will sort it out properly, but they will. They really need the truth of a lot of things before it will work, but we will have to deal with and do so soon.

Yea, the alert is a pain but is meaningless. Someone should sue google.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Very fine point, thanks.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 2 years ago

Hmmm, natural law is one thing, right is another. Laws of science for example cannot be construed as rights. Natural is such a thing. The words "biological laws" would be interchangeble in many ways.

Natural law refers to how human instincts react to various conditions. When society is aware of these and structures rules that tend to work them together for a mutual goal, rather rather than random interests, things get better. Rights are derived from people observing natural law working in society and logically determining that a given right when respected by all, will benefit the most people.

There is a curious analogy in anarchy. The only peaceful anarchy is one where everyone in it knows everything there is to know about the average persons needs and will not place their wants over the others need. Therein is a collective awareness of natural law at work inherently controlling each person for the good of all.

Sure wish the occupy anarchists could figure that out. It's in their nature, but not in their words. I found that link which secures an Article V convention completely within constitutional intent.

http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?33-Amendment-By-Layers-Of-Priority-Amendment-Package-Making-CONST.-Intent

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Human laws consist of a combination of rights, responsibilities, and prohibitions. The may or may not be logical, based on observation of nature, or anything else. They are simply agreed to by people. Many cultures have laws that seem completely arbitrary and even cruel to an outside viewer. Since all people have the same essential nature, nature itself does not account for these sometimes extreme variations in social organization.

Your definition seems based on an esoteric weaving together of personal references. It is not a position recognized by any living legal professional or scholar I am aware of.

I m suspicious of the term. It has been abused too often by despots. Laws should be decided based on ethics alone, not science or an incomplete understanding (at best) of our nature or nature in general. The good of all has not been determined to be a natural law at all. But it has been determined by ethics to be the most desirable.

(By the way, you should know that I'm getting a virus alert when I click our your link.)

[-] -3 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

You either have no clue, or you are attempting to use meaningless labels to advance the agenda of your corporate masters. Which is it?

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

My corporate masters? I have been a part of OWS, supporting it here since last fall. I was organizing workers before your sorry ass was born. You, on the other hand, appeared TODAY.

Go fuck yourself.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Regarding your comment above . . . "Human Laws . . . "

You are on a roll epa1nter! Very clear, articulate, reasoning! I will say it again, I'm glad you're on our side:)

[-] -3 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

You are a corporate fascist plant, and I find YOU offensive beyond words.

It's all about boiling the frog - slow and easy, a little at a time, and assuring him all along the way that either (a) there's nothing to worry about, or (b) there's a greater evil that only this evil can counter.

Hell, by the time the brainwashing from Quislings like YOU was over, the Nazis didn't have to use guns or force to load the Jews into the cattle cars to Auschwitz, or even into the ovens once they got there. They just walked right in...

You and yours are going to Hell, "Epa1nter", and maybe sooner than you think. And once I get tired of listening to all the televangelists screaming in their well-deserved agony, I look forward to watching you suffer as well.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I'm a corporate "fascist" plant? You dare call me a fascist after i have explicitly told you my family was wiped out by fascists? Have you no shame?

You sound like you are about 12 years old. I was working, literally at the risk of my life, fighting for worker's rights before your were like born you little pissant. I was leading anti corporate strikes before your parents were likely out of diapers.

Keep muddying the waters. Use hysterical utterly contemptible false equivalences. Go ahead. And see how many potential supporters of the movement you and your ilk drive away. No one, except right wing shills, likes to be associated with demagoguery and distortion.

And, for the record, Nazis DID use both guns AND force to put my family on those trains. For the record, my mother DID have the brains and blood spatter on her face as the guards shot, with guns and force, the young girl standing next to her through the head in order to amuse themselves. And yes, guns and force WERE used to force her and thousands of others to march, naked in the snow, to their place of forced labor. And yes, guns WERE used to make them watch as the Nazis set the dogs to tear to shreds the stragglers every single day.

THAT is fascism. THAT is what Nazism is about. (And it is a FRACTION of it.) You compare that to the US NOW? Go fuck yourself and and your arrogant obscene flippancy.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Is it me? or does this SFB remind you of another asshole not heard from for awhile.............shit can't think of the other assholes user name it will come to me no doubt........ hell everyone and I mean every one had fun slapping the shit head just to watch it froth at the mouth and rant.


waarheid

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[-] -1 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

First Rule of Propaganda: When you can't dispute the message, attack the messenger.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sorry I may get to your message later but for right now I am trying to remember the shit head you remind me of. I f you are still around later we may just see about crushing your BS. Right Now? I'm not really concerned as you are obvious.

[-] -3 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

GypsyKing is not an American... or at least he/she/it claims to live in a jungle too far away from NYC to be American. You imply being "obvious" is a bad thing. I don't think it is. I like "transparent" too. But I don't think GypsyKing, or you, or any of the other Demopublican operatives infesting this forum would last long if you embraced either...

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Ah thank you the more you spout the more likely I will remember the shit head that you remind me of. Please continue as I think others find you to be amusing too.

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sheesh you sure do have a penchant for BS. besides the clue less shithead turak you also remind me of another butthead a visitor that showed up a day or two ago - also addicted to using bold type. HMMMMMMMM that will be a little tougher as it was not or has not developed into a memorable character yet. Have not noticed the butthead posting today.............

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Let's see....hmmm......ass hat ass hat ass hat............hmmmmmmm -!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Turak - that was the asshat. I knew it would come back if you just kept spouting - Turak - what a dolt.

Thanks now maybe later I will waste some time crushing your bullshit - but don't cont on it - Frontline is on tonight and there are actual troll threats to be slapped as well as good content to comment on. So you are not real high on the list.

Thanks for the memory boosting.

[-] -1 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

GypsyKing is not an American... or at least he/she/it claims to live in the jungle far far away. So why does GypsyKing infest this forum?

ForumSpeak: The True Meanings of "Spam", "Troll" and "Karma":

spam : Any forum posting that (a) conflicts with either the forum moderators' agenda or groupthink consensus; or (b) any other forum member disagrees with, doesn't like, fears or otherwise does not wish to see posted.

troll : Any forum member who posts "spam" as defined above.

karma : A numerical measure of forum groupthink contribution, conformity and compliance that says nothing about the virtues of the poster or the veracity of their postings.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What does GK's origin or current place of residence have to do with anything. The movements against greed and corruption are world wide we have contributors from around the world stop in.

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[-] -1 points by waarheid (-5) 2 years ago

You provide nothing to substantiate your story, and I have better things to do with my time than challenge it. I don't need to. What I posted is fact - as far as recorded history goes. What you posted is at best an exception that proves the rule, but more likely than not forum fiction.

If your family suffered at the hands of fascists, then join us in the Global Revolution and oppose them. If on the other hand you're a Demopublican plant like GypsyKing - posting anything and everything you can conceive to trick Occupy protesters into becoming lock-step Democrats marching straight into the false choice ovens of rigged elections - then go sell your bullshit down the street.

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[-] 1 points by archanjo4 (1) from Santo André, São Paulo 2 years ago

I saw a coment below : "In fact, the nazification of America is almost complete." I'm brazilian, so i'm sorry for the mistakes on what i'll write rigth now but, it was the second phrase, this guy don't even try to see the arguments of the one who post it, so i ask you: what's your moral to say anything? who you want to cheat? you will awys be like you are now, you will never learn anything. Try to see the things from a new perspective, you really are on this movement with this type of acts? Sorry for anything.

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

Actually abortion was outlawed in Germany under Hitler.

[-] 0 points by NationalSocialist (-3) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

Is this O.P. supposed to be a joke?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

"NationalSocialist?" What, you think we don't know that means Nazi?

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[-] 0 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

What a bunch of Red bullshit.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (22313) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Red as in - Red state? Designation of repub influence? I wonder why that would be.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

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[-] 0 points by mserfas (652) from Ashland, PA 2 years ago

While these comparisons can be thought-provoking, exaggeration isn't helpful. The problem is NOT that America is the same as Nazi Germany. But there might be a problem that America is acting a little bit like other far more moderate countries, like Germany's Weimar Republic or colonial Rwanda, where the risks of violating privacy in small ways seemed remote, but turned out not to be. If Germany and Rwanda hadn't used passports and other official documents to classify people by race, then when totalitarians took over, they would have encountered substantial difficulties in organizing atrocities. No one would have been sure who was a Jew or Aryan, Hutu or Tutsi. Today the database is no longer a clipped corner on an identity card, but far more substantial, and the abuses which might arise are far more varied. People hope that never again will such monstrous ideologies command nations, but so far, there is little evidence from history that this is the case. And even if America resists falling victim to any political movement more odious than the Bush administration, there is still a risk - well nigh a certainty, really - that this information will be divulged to others in the world with less friendly intentions.

[-] 0 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

"In fact, the nazification of America is almost complete."

That is where I stopped reading.

[-] 1 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Move along then, and try to remember what that niggling feeling is as you try to remember this article, when you commute to work and the TSA randomly searches you at your car, or at your subway, ferry, or bus stop.

[-] 1 points by friendlyopposition (574) 2 years ago

I'll do that. And you remember this article, too, in 25 years when it hasn't happened yet.

But by then you'll probably have moved on to the next conspiracy.

[-] 0 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Conspiracies have been around since time immemorial. Man has always conspired against one another, so I imagine I probably will, given that I'm an independent thinker. Crowds aren't my thing. Some conspiracies can even be quite fun, but alas, not this one. I'd give just about anything to be wrong on this one.

[-] -1 points by nichole (525) 2 years ago

I think you could have come up with a better American example to provide evidence for your claim. School lunches? I remember seeing that on Fox News a while back -- they were outraged! Let the kids drink cola and eat pink slime. Don't suggest that exercise is good for them -- we can't be living in a "Nanny State".

I agree that we are heading into the dangerous realm of totalitarianism -- in many ways we are already there. Let's wait to see how the NYPD and other police departments nationwide handle May Day. I think that will truly tell us what kind of authoritarian structure we are currently living under.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Expect it to be handled in the same way as the DNC in 1968. As far as civil unrest goes, this country has always responded the same way. They are not going to welcome mass demonstrations by handing out daisies.

[-] 0 points by Reneye (118) 2 years ago

Did you click the link and read the other examples? One item in itself does not make the case. It becomes a case of a preponderance of items that collectively amount to the US being well on its way to tyranny.

[-] 0 points by nichole (525) 2 years ago

Yes, I have, and what? Bring God back in to schools? We don't have free market capitalism, it's corporatism, much to the ostensible capitalists' delight. Also, see something with this one: "In Nazi Germany, killing the 'weak'and the 'disabled' was considered to be a good thing because it made the German people 'stronger'." Guess that may have something to do with healthcare inaccessibility.

[-] -2 points by Spring12 (25) 2 years ago

No we really aren't Nazi's because we are not Facists and we didn't murder 6 million people and cause a world war. So you can just go fuck yourself bro.

[-] 2 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 2 years ago

You wanna go? Come at me bro. braw. broseph. broskini. brobama...

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 2 years ago

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2PsTgqdiDI&feature=related

Fascist Coupe vs Franklin Roosevelt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRw-OQYDe2M&list=PLAABD0339940FC76A&feature=plpp_play_all [right click]

The Bailouts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvBwZcmgZwI&list=PL93AE62BCCCBB692F&feature=view_all [right click]

[-] 0 points by Mowat (164) 2 years ago

the US killed over 20 million since ww2 in several wars it started. You would think it would have been less evil if Germany won ww2!

[-] -1 points by Spring12 (25) 2 years ago

We did not start, Korea, Nam, or the Gulf. It is called war and people die. We did not start wars dumbass.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

In fact we did start Nam. It was we who broke our promise to that counrty and allowed the French back in after WWII. It was a stark betrayal, especially as we got them to keep the Japanese from obtaining their natural rubber during the war by promising our support for their independence after it was over.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Thats right we never invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, nor Panama, or forced regime change by the CIA in Iran in the 50's, or regime changes in any South American countries..... none of that ever happened. I'm sure I left some out.... oh yeah, Grenada... never invaded that country either, or the Bay of Pigs invasion. We don't provoke war, of course not.

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[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

6 million? What 6 million?