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Forum Post: 1: Replace Fascism with Democracy

Posted 2 years ago on June 30, 2012, 11 a.m. EST by goldstandard (-13)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Quote: “Everyone in the US in 2012 should be wealthy. We produce $15.4 trillion in goods and services every year. That is just under $50,000 per year for every man, woman and child. That is $200,000 per year for a family of 4. That is $65 per hour for each hour every worker works. That is $135,000 per year for every full-time worker.” End of Quote.

The preamble to this other thread is so, well, unusual that one is tempted to believe it is just satire.

But if we assume for a moment that it is a serious attempt at offering an alternative to today’s economic framework, then it becomes serious.

Just the calculation of the available monetary pool for distribution to all the workers alone is so utterly flawed and obtuse, it is an insult to serious objectors to the present system. Let alone all the madcap rest. It is not cognisant of any costs of materials, energy, capital costs, transport and many others which have components of imported costs and not related directly to man-hours worked. Ideas such as these are an embarrassment to the cause and are simply put ‘nuts’. The US is just not producing enough wealth to go round anymore, that's why there is such a huge amount of money being printed to cover the demands of the people. But for how much longer?

But let’s try capitalism for a change!

Not the corporate fascism we endured for the last century or so. There is no alternative to real capitalism! The Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, North Koreans etc, all tried it and see where it got them. Then the Europeans embarked on their own version of a centrally controlled economy called socialism, and they’re totally bankrupt and no amount of money printing will safe them.

It is just not the way the economy, nature, or the entire universe works.

Life is not fair, as some would whine and whinge, but it is the way of the universe.

Controlling wages, prices, costs, interest rates, markets, none of it works; it is just not meant to work like that. But it's happening now in this country, day and night in every market and see where it brought us, to total bankruptcy with no way out.

Some countries have minimally embarked on the insanity of socialism and controlled economies, and they’re the ones who are surviving the best in a harsh world, Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Germany to some extent are some examples. They got there the old fashioned way, education, hard work, thriftiness, adaptation and innovation; all the necessary ingredients for success for every creature in this entire universe. And of course the languid, profligate, socialist countries cry for their money to bail them out!

Live is not fair – No actually ‘Life IS Fair’!

After all, if you ever wondered, this IS the purpose of Life; ‘Reward for Effort’.

As the saying goes: “There is no glory (success/reward) for a lazy person, however good looking”! (Just being born does not entitle anyone)

Every animal in the wild will teach you this; every plant and creature is subject to this law of the ‘Economy of Nature’. Just humans believe that they can flout these laws of nature’s economy. But everything they try just won’t work.

Socialism is not compassion, it engenders the opposite and unintended side effects, controlled prices and wages are not part of the nature of the human economy, they totally distort the markets and misdirect resources in wasteful ways. It just won’t work, it’s been tried time and again, and never with success! But true capitalism has always worked, not the crony capitalism cum corporate fascism as practised in the US and some other parts.

  1. Firstly, honest money is needed, that is a 100% gold backed currency that is beyond the grasp of politicians and Bankers.
  2. A framework for fair trading rules needs to be in place, which is enforced!
  3. Real democracy, which is devolving decision making and responsibility to the people, as practised in Switzerland. Direct Democracy.

Such a framework will ensure that the will of the people is followed for which they take full responsibility, capitalism actually works for the people, and money is not a tool of power for bankers and can not be created or abused by politicians.

Everything else is wishful thinking, and quite frankly, obtuse poppycock and a disservice to honest attempts at creating a fairer and more equitable world, where 'Effort really equals Reward' and opportunities abound to fulfil everyone’s aspirations.

37 Comments

37 Comments


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[-] 4 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

As the author of the post you are referring to, I can tell you that your understanding of economics is way off. So your critique of my post is worthless.

For example, you said:

"Just the calculation of the available monetary pool for distribution to all the workers alone is so utterly flawed and obtuse, it is an insult to serious objectors to the present system. Let alone all the madcap rest. It is not cognisant of any costs of materials, energy, capital costs, transport and many others which have components of imported costs and not related directly to man-hours worked."

You said I only account for income paid to workers and did not account for all the other costs like materials and energy.

When you buy materials, do you think your money gets planted in the ground where we took the material from!?!

Let me give a very basic, grade school education in economics. When you spend money on ANY expense, including an expense like material, that money goes into the pocket of some person as income. Every single penny we spend in the economy, no matter what you spend it on, winds up in someone's pocket as income.

So GDP is a measure of the total goods and services we produced. It is also a measure of the total expenses we incurred in production. It is also a measure of the total income we paid out.

They are referred to as the production approach, expenditure approach and income approach, respectively, in determining GDP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Determining_GDP

The rest of your post is just as inaccurate and nonsensical.

[-] 0 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

It is patently clear why the OWS movement is never going to gain any traction, and attracting but ridicule and scorn, with almost the entire mob that’s attracted to this ‘cause’ being so utterly bereft of any clue as to what makes an economy or how it works. All they know that they want a Free Lunch, for which someone else has to pay for!

And this has been tried and failed every single time! Ah, but not the way WE propose it, not this fantastic, magical, ingenious way, where money grows on trees, where all you have to do is “put money into circulation and voila, everyone gets rich, no Effort required, it just circulates and makes everyone rich.

No one needs to work! Why would anyone want to work if you can get paid a ‘Living Wage’ just for being!

Paid by whom? Ahem, the state, a printing press, the mug who actually works and produces something of value for society aka taxpayer, or perhaps the Tooth Fairy? How many of these mugs would be required to pay a living wage to every single mouth which has been born and is now entitled to this income without contributing to society? The government currently runs a funding shortfall of over 36% and could in all likelihood be much higher in the final count. The US just isn’t producing enough wealth for all its socialist spending programs. But a Living Wage will fix all this, it will just circulate and make everyone rich. Come to think of it, why not give everyone a printing press to print as many Dollars as each individual ‘requires’, then we would all be Fabulously Rich.

Actually, isn’t the government already doing this right now, and the nation now is totally bankrupt for it????????

Two more points to your whacky ‘calculations’:

The US is running massive trade deficits, so a lot of money is flowing OUT of the US. Competitiveness can’t be commanded as your dreamy schoolboy model requires. So ok, let’s pay everyone $65/h and make the products priced accordingly! Now, are you better off?

Nature IS competitiveness! Without competitiveness there is no incentive, no checks and balances, and most of all, no Reward. For as in a controlled command economy as propose here, everyone produces the same bland old chunk at the same out of reach exorbitant cost, same low quality, same undesirable attributes; and what’s more, in excess, for a very short while, and no one is willing to part with their money to buy it. And then that inane economic model collapses and capitalism returns.

Free Capitalism is the only one that really works.

Nature’s Economy is a great model, we can try and flout her laws and force people to do things the way some self appointed (at the point of a gun and over the dead bodies of millions) tyrant wants to dictate, as espoused here. But in the end the evidence against it is all around us, and the evidence for Free Capitalism is easily found in prosperous countries which haven’t succumbed to the treacherous ideas of socialism and command economies.

[-] 1 points by DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom (3213) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"No one needs to work! Why would anyone want to work if you can get paid a ‘Living Wage’ just for being! "

Have you actually read my proposal?

Only in capitalism can you get paid for doing no work. Trump got $50 million for free from his father. Trump's kids, and kids of every other wealthy family, enjoy similar benefits.

Mitt Romney, the guy actually running for president, gets paid $20 million per year and does not work at all. It is all unearned income.

My plan puts an end to this. You can only get paid by working.

You should actually read what I propose before you criticize it.

.

"The US is running massive trade deficits, so a lot of money is flowing OUT of the US"

Our trade deficit is $516 billion which represents just 3% of our economy. That trade deficit was accounted for in computing the incomes in my post.

You can verify the numbers here:

http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=9&step=3&isuri=1&910=X&911=0&903=51&904=2010&905=2010&906=A

.

"So ok, let’s pay everyone $65/h and make the products priced accordingly! Now, are you better off? "

Like I said, you have to read my proposal before criticizing it!

I do not say we should pay everyone an equal income. I said differences in income should be limited to just what is necessary to get people to work hard.

But if we did pay everyone $65/hr, 97% would be better off since they would be getting an increase in income.

.

"For as in a controlled command economy as propose here, everyone produces the same bland old chunk"

I don't know why I wasted my time responding to this post.

But I do not advocate a command economy. I advocate a market economy. Read the actual post!!

.

"Free Capitalism is the only one that really works."

It is the only system that works great for the few people at top! Look around. Nearly the entire world is capitalist and most are poor because the few at the top are unfairly taking most of everyone's income.

.

"Capitalism is easily found in prosperous countries which haven’t succumbed to the treacherous ideas of socialism and command economies"

The difference between poor countries and wealthy countries is how long they have been developing. The economic system just determines how that wealth is allocated. The people in Russia were wealthier when they had socialism than when they had capitalism since everyone was guaranteed a job and income was allocated more fairly.

[-] 3 points by flip (7039) 2 years ago

if you are for the gold standard you are not thinking clearly - if you are not - why the name

[-] 2 points by LeoYo (5866) 2 years ago
  1. Money was no more honest when it was backed by gold than it is now and there's no way it can ever be beyond the grasp of the politicians and bankers who would naturally have the authority concerning it.

  2. Enforcement of fair trading rules can only come about with popular demand from those in charge of the enforcers which leads us to

  3. Real Democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/amendment-for-a-democratic-congress/ that has to be arrived at through the liberation of democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/ which requires political organization and a democratic workplace http://occupywallst.org/forum/political-organization-rather-than-political-party/ .

[-] -2 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Two more points to your whacky ‘calculations’:

The US is running massive trade deficits, so a lot of money is flowing OUT of the US.

Competitiveness can’t be commanded as your dreamy schoolboy model requires. So ok, let’s pay everyone $65/h and make the products priced accordingly! Now, are you better off?

Nature IS competitiveness! Without competitiveness there is no incentive, no checks and balances, and most of all, no Reward. For as in a controlled command economy as propose here, everyone produces the same bland old chunk at the same out of reach exorbitant cost, same low quality, same undesirable attributes; and what’s more, in excess, for a very short while, and no one is willing to part with their money to buy it. And then that inane economic model collapses and capitalism returns. Free Capitalism is the only one that really works.

Nature’s Economy is a great model, we can try and flout her laws and force people to do things the way some self appointed (at the point of a gun and over the dead bodies of millions) tyrant wants to dictate, as espoused here.

But in the end the evidence against it is all around us, and the evidence for Free Capitalism is easily found in prosperous countries which haven’t succumbed to the treacherous ideas of socialism and command economies.

[-] -2 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

Part deux: A person with less than a high school education, who has limited skills has no value, in truth. If his only skill is to attach widget piece A to dohickey piece B, a shrewd intellectually superior person will find someone to do the above task better and cheaper.

[-] -3 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

It is obviously pointless to try and have an informed and enlightened discussion with Free Lunchers, as the protagonists of these whacky ideas really believe that somehow prosperity can be commanded into existence. As for your attack on the rebuttal of your calculation, clearly you can’t read or comprehend what was said. In fact your haughty condescension is telling enough that one should stop and try and reason right here and now. Yes, most money ends up in someone’s pocket, but that’s not what I said! It just doesn’t end up in American workers, for instance oil, imported raw materials etc. for which there is presently no substitute and a lot of the cost is related to finance.

The problem with Free Lunchers is that they really believe in the idea that giving everyone a living wage makes everyone more prosperous.

Well, that’s exactly what got all the countries around the world into the bankrupt state they now find themselves in. Prosperity can only come from real effort; producing something for which someone else is willing to pay a price, which makes the first person willing to produce it. As soon as there is coercion, read controls, regulations, market fixing, involved the production of such goods and the flow of commerce breaks down.

Free Capitalism, you can’t have it any other way: There is NO FREE LUNCH!

It’s the way of Nature, the Universe, Commerce and all human activity. Get used to the idea of no Reward without Effort; Effort for which someone else is freely willing to pay for a price which allows you to produce with Reward enough so you want to produce it and afford you a living. Marxism, Communism, Socialism are all Free Lunch ideas which have all been thoroughly discredited and failed in every instance.

The communist block has all gone capitalist, bar say North Korea and see how well they are doing, socialist Europe is bankrupt with not way out, corporate fascist US is bankrupt with no way out either.

Marxism and Communism are responsible for massacres on unprecedented scales in the 100s of millions. Nowhere in their manifestos is stated that they must kill so many people, but it is implied and a prerequisite to massacre all these people to implement such heinous tyrannical ideas. Free Lunch ideas as the ones discussed here are of the same nature! They are just not part of the way things work and humans just won’t willingly subjugate themselves to such deleterious despotism.

There is no Free Lunch, and ‘Life is Fair’ – Reward for Effort, for which someone else freely and willingly pays you. Nothing else works.

No wonder the MSM has such a field day with the OWS when there is such a preponderance Free Lunch ideas!!!

[-] 4 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

WOW, And I thought you free market fundamentalists were just figments of the imagination of left wing propagandists. So do you guys really pray at the alter of Ayn Rand, while being amazed by an invisible hand?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26518) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Truth can be stranger then fiction - the existence of those like goldstandard is proof that insane people are on the street and have access to the internet.

Course I expect that they are shills.

Can an insane person be that stupid?

No - not as consistently and determinedly.

[-] 1 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Like at every one of these forums where the obtuse and unapprised stalk the threads, it always deteriorates instantly into the most puerile, foulmouthed and time wasting competition as to which dunce can hurtle the most nauseating and detestable abuse! Ah well, I guess they have to compensate their complete lack of civility and acumen somehow. In a way it is understandable, for the bereft there really is but one motto: “If you run out of arguments and reason, you can always resort to trading insults.”

[-] -1 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Ayn Rand was partially right, but missed some important facets, but you’re not interested in reasoned debate, just in trading insults.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

You got a lot of nerve, son. As you sit there and insult others for making obtuse statements, you make them one right after another. I'll tell you why I'm Not a fan of Rand. Her philosophy was self serving and her greatest Acolyte, Greenspan, was a complete rube. She was a bourgeois princess who ruined America with her philosophy of mine, mine mine. The sad part is that she brought selfishness in vogue.

Listen, if you don't want the social safety net eating away at all of middle class America's profits, then you should fight to see the working class get paid more for their labor. BUt because people like you would rather condemn the working class for not being wealthy like you, you are stuck supporting them in other ways. I have to say one great thing about our system is that those who live off the labor of others find themselves supporting those they take advantage of, kinda serendipitous if you ask me.

As to your moniker, you do realize that if our money was based on a gold standard we would suffer from the resource curse. If our money is tagged to one commodity, what would happen if a nation or an individual cornered that market? The gold standard equates to putting all your eggs in one basket.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

It’s the way of Nature, the Universe, Commerce and all human activity.

The way? Who the fuck are you? The Buddha economist.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

we all live off photosynthesis

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

and phytoplankton.

[-] 0 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Like at every one of these forums where the obtuse and unapprised stalk the threads, it always deteriorates instantly into the most puerile, foulmouthed and time wasting competition as to which dunce can hurtle the most nauseating and detestable abuse! Ah well, I guess they have to compensate their complete lack of civility and acumen somehow. In a way it is understandable, for the bereft there really is but one motto: “If you run out of arguments and reason, you can always resort to trading insults.”

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

When somebody claims such absolute knowledge as to know the "way" of everything, and deigns to teach it to me, I find this insult to my intelligence must not pass without a witty retort. So please do enlighten us all as to how the universe works. For example, does the free market really do better when the house of Venus coincides with a salmon run upstream?

[+] -4 points by delayedgrat (-157) 2 years ago

Most of OWS is geared around equalizing income without regard for the very real issue of unequal skills and effort. There is a silent but real thread of envy in most posts. If one suggests real thought provoking ideas, such as forming a third party or adopting a drug free platform, the conversation is always moved back to "lets figure a way to get stuff for free."

Demand TGL was and is always angling for a way to make more money by having it dropped in his lap, rarher than get paid for skills acquired.

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Most people in Occupy don't want an equal income, they want a fair share of the income they help produce. Even well educated people, possessing Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates, do not share in the wealth that their educations helped provide. See the graph here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_median_personal_income_by_education_attainment_in_the_US.png

Because of the invisible hand of inflation, even the well educated are unaware that their incomes, adjusted for inflation, really haven't increased much in the last twenty years. Productivity has increased, profits have increased, but real wages for most have not.

[-] 0 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Real disposable incomes have declined by nigh 50% since tricky Dick took the US and the planet into the netherworlds of fiat money, a fact the Keynesian tooth fairy nutters won’t tell you!

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

A dollar in 1968 is worth only 15 cents now. Just think how much value was lost over the decades by one group, only to be gained by another.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

If you disagree with his ideas, why don't you give us your plan to make society better?

[-] 0 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

Obviously everything I’ve said has completely escaped you. It is all laid out already, but let me recount it slowly for you so you can follow it:

Every living thing, every human being, every nation must generate the conditions and resources to sustain itself, grow and regenerate. There is NO FREE LUNCH in this life or universe for anyone!

Socialism is, as should by now be abundantly clear with all the failed and bankrupt nations on the planet, a totally failed attempt at thwarting and outwitting this inalienable law of universal economics.

As humans we can mitigate the harshness of the universal survival of the fittest modus operandi to a minimal extent, before we run into the very problems we now find ourselves in, namely bankruptcy on an epic scale worldwide.

The only solution is to actually produce the wealth ourselves, each individual and each nation.

The rest is all in this thread already, read it.

[-] 5 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Shhhh ! Everybody. Shhhhh !!! The Buddha economist is speaking about the way.......listen....."Follow the invisible hand for forty days and forty nights and you will be shown the one and true path, my son."

[+] -4 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

OWS is rightfully ridiculed and scorned for all puerile protagonists it is populated with. If any of them had even the most rudimentary grasp on real economics it would make a difference. But calling for a Free Lunch for which someone else has to pay for, or a command economy as in all the failed totalitarian states where millions perished to establish this utopian nightmare for the benefit of the few at the right end of the gun, will turn even the most sympathetic supporters to loath them for what they really represent.

Sadly, as the moniker of the cause suggests, they really have some serious issues to address.

[-] 3 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Breaking news: Buddha economist caught with pants down, jerking off with invisible hand.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26518) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Wow do you have a flawed perception of reality delayedgrat.

Pushing for a living wage for all workers is hardly greedy nor is it inconsiderate.

A living wage paid to all - starting at all entry level positions - puts more money on the streets/economy - puts more taxes into state and federal budgets - reduces the draw on social support programs such as food stamps and housing/energy aid.

[-] -1 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

I agree! Pay everyone a Living Wage, simple!

No one needs to work! Why would anyone want to work if you can get paid a ‘Living Wage’ just for being!

Paid by whom? Ahem, the state, a printing press, or perhaps the the mug who actually works and produces something of value for society aka taxpayer, or maybe the Tooth Fairy?

How many of these mugs would be required to pay a living wage to every single mouth which has been born and is now entitled to this income without contributing to society?

The government currently runs a funding shortfall of over 36% and could in all likelihood be much higher in the final count. The US just isn’t producing enough wealth for all its socialist spending programs, but insists on continuing down the inane path of self destruction. But a Living Wage will fix all this, it will just circulate and make everyone rich.

Come to think of it, why not give everyone a printing press to print as many Dollars as each individual ‘requires’, then we would all be Fabulously Rich. The money would just circulate and do its magic.

Actually, isn’t the government already doing this right now, printing as much as they want and need for all their social programs, and the nation now is totally bankrupt for it, with no way out????????

I rest my case!

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26518) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Rest your case - of what - beer?

What an absolute dismal rant.

Work on it - maybe your mommy will help you.

[-] 0 points by vvv0630 (-63) 2 years ago

Very "mature" comment, DicKheAdtoday. And very typical.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26518) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I'm sorry ( NOT ) was I picking on one of your shills? Sockpuppet? BS PR Trainee?

[-] -1 points by vvv0630 (-63) 2 years ago

Put Up or Shut Up, DKAtoday: If you can objectively prove I am a "corporate shill" do so and I will never post here again. If you cannot, your failure will prove to all that you are the LIAR I already know you to be.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26518) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Too Bad So Sad - For U.

I do not care what U do.

Too bad U apparently can not say the same as for your obsession with me.

Continue to shill-on as U R a good example of what is wrong with this country/world - humanityselloutshillvvvrustybuttbrucie pr hack for hire.

[-] -1 points by vvv0630 (-63) 2 years ago

Ignoring reality again, eh? Once again...

Put Up or Shut Up, DKAtoday: If you can objectively prove I am a "corporate shill" do so and I will never post here again. If you cannot, your failure will prove to all that you are the LIAR I already know you to be.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Can you live on $7.25 an hour? About $15,000 a year full time.

[-] -3 points by goldstandard (-13) 2 years ago

All you have to do is provide a service, labor or a product for which someone else freely and willingly pays you your desired price, and voila, you’re into the riches you so demand.

It’s called fair and equitable economics. No coercion, no price fixing, no wage fixing, no commands from bureaucrats, just you and your buyer freely exchanging wealth. Your wealth, created by your service, labor or product, the buyer paying with wealth stored in gold backed currency which can not be diluted as it is now to the tune of Trillions of Dollars annually.