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We are the 99 percent

War Profiteers Meet Tomorrow In NYC. They Won't Be Alone.

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 29, 2011, 12:46 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt


Tomorrow, the Aviation Week and Credit Suisse will be holding their 17th annual Aerospace & Defense Finance Conference in NYC. These war profiteers export death in the name of defense. They have obscene influence over our democracy with politicians in their pockets and hundreds of lobbyists working congress. They sell arms to to the 1% so that war can be waged against the 99% in efficient and technologically advanced ways. #OWS will not stand silent as these dangerous parasites take our tax dollars and turn them into arms and profit.

WHEN: Wednesday, 11/30, two rallies/marches--6:30am meet up and rally to non-violently interrupt business as usual as delegates enter the conference, and 4:30pm to rally against militarism.
WHERE: Both rallies are In Madison Sq. Park near the intersection of 24th and Madison. The Conference is being held at One Madison Avenue 12th Floor (Park Ave South between 24th & 23rd streets).

Some background info
Where your tax dollars go pie chart
Aerospace & Defense Finance Conference Site



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[-] 18 points by DCFairbank (17) 12 years ago

As OWS continues, criticism from the 1% has increased and intensified. The 1% has been in a panicked frenzy lately criticizing OWS for everything they can think of : its message, its methods, its structure, its camps and even the way protestors dress! The more critical they are of you and your efforts, the closer you are to striking a nerve and you are causing them anxiety. I've been watching this trend with a great deal of interest since OWS began and the attempts at bullying have been so predictable. I have been so impressed by how resilient your movement has been despite this. The fact that so many people support your message proves that people have just been waiting for someone to do what you are doing. I cannot thank you enough for standing up for the 99%.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mohandas Gandhi

[-] 7 points by Hamlet2086 (33) 12 years ago

Yes, the criticism is up, and yet it will not work, for this in fact is the information age. Unbeknowst to some, the world really does change, and one of the things that has changed is that it is harder to bury the truth under a heap of cheap critique. We have the means to get the truth out through existing technology.

As Chomsky has observed, when most often used in news accounts, the word "stability" means whatever is in the interest of the wealthy interests within the United States (or whatever country happens to be doing the broadcasting). In that sense, "stability" somehow comes to mean killing people in foreign lands who stand in the way of the greedy getting exactly what they want, so that word "stability" gives them a cover for even the most violent action, so that "stability" includes blowing human beings and all their infrastructure into small pieces with large explosives; however, the families of those whom you blow up in this manner tend to dislike you and attempt to kill you back.

Knowledge is power, or as Stevie Wonder said, "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you'll suffer: Superstition ain't the way."

Some greedy people in the 1% worked together in hiding to get themselves rich while undermining the world economy, robbing people of homes and ways to legitimately earn a living. What did all the ninja mortgages that were diced into CDO's to be sold into retirement funds as "AAA investments", and insured by their issuers with Credit Default Swaps in amounts exceeding in face value an entire decade of the economic production of the planet Earth add to making the place better for the 99%? Zip. Nada. Worthless paper. Unless, perhaps, it teaches us not to let them continue to rip us off.

We can't have anything less than that, and we're not too ignorant to be misled about what went down. If the law and rules are not put in place to stop it, it will only tempt them to strike again. Even Adam Smith did not believe that thieves and highway men are good for you. If people can rob you (even without using violence) and not go to jail for it, they'll be back.

Think those who know what's happening to the 99% will just shut up and go home?

Please think again.

[-] 3 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

It maybe harder to bury the truth in this technological age but for most people facing the truth is extremely difficult. There is a reason why many people do not want to believe in what the individuals are voicing their concerns over in this movement. The reason is it is hitting a nerve that speaks the truth which makes people uncomfortable since it is a call for action.

For example: People have more respect for a good liar then a bad liar - Why? A bad liar insults their intelligence and to keep their dignity they must call them on it or be a fool.

Politicians knows this so they become experts on lying to the masses. This accomplishes two things - We can live in our denial by intrepretating it that fits our preconcieved ideas that they would not intentionally lying to us and #2 - Therefore we do not feel obligated to interact if we pretend that nobody is out to destroy us.

[-] 1 points by Hamlet2086 (33) 12 years ago

Thank you for making aware to all who care to read your words some very good aspects to ponder. People are born to be fascinated by magic, but in their awe, they forget that there is good magic and bad magic. When you dare to look behind the curtain and all the smoke and mirrors, you can make out that the Wizard of Oz is not a god, he's a snake oil salesman.

Everything starts from somewhere. Lao Tzu, who was born about five centuries before Jesus, noted that the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Many people wonder if OWS is going anywhere. As I recall, Apollo 11, which had five of the largest rocket engines ever built in its first stage alone, was sitting at a dead stop on its launch pad before lift off, and people were wondering at that point if it might blow up, not if men would land on the moon and return.

Sure, the Saturn V was complex, but it ran on kerosene, not miracles.

Zen masters respect one another by calling each other names like craphead. Why? Because part of wisdom is admitting that being a "tin god" is not in line with respect for the fountain of truth.

Our world has not only changed, it's accelerating, changing faster and faster. This is no time to sleep. We need to apply what we know to paving better paths to being human, or let some thief use the new tools invented to perpetrate bigger crimes than were ever before possible.

OWS is a wake up call. It's what family counselors call the Ouch Principle. If someone steps on your foot, and you don't say ouch, then getting your toes crushed is on you. Say "ouch", and the dynamic changes. This is how we begin to separate the clumsy from the pick pockets.

All of us are stronger than any one of us. We don't need wizards or leaders. We need to wake up and learn what life in the 21st century is all about and how to give each person the fairest shot we can. If we fail to do that, how can we expect humanity to be ready for whatever may come in the 22nd century?

Like those before us, we have better technology than those born before us. The question still is, will we put it to good use or allow it to be squandered and abused?

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

If I was 20 years old right now I would answer your question that we would put it to good use but I am twice that age and have witnessed so much abuse and selfishness that I would have to answer your question with it will be squandered and abused.

Not very hopeful, am I? I hope this movement can change my mind.



[-] 2 points by Marlow (1141) 12 years ago

It's because they FEAR us!... And rightly so.



[-] 11 points by shainzona (23) 12 years ago

Thank you OWS - for all you are doing. I wish I lived closer!

[-] 11 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 12 years ago

Congratulations, again, to OWS for another great idea, part of unending stream of great, well thought-out actions that educate us and the broader society. Again, my great admiration to all those who are able to be activists, which I can't more than minimally at this time, and with deep gratitude.

In solidarity.

[-] 0 points by conservative4change (12) 12 years ago

"...unending stream of great, well thought-out actions.." - that's a joke, right? Nothing great or well thought-out here.

Rally against militarism? Yeah, right. Have you been paying attention to the Chinese military buildup? You think these guys are ready to throw down their arms and join you in a verse of "Kumbaya" do you? Wake up!

The world is a place of rapidly growing population and shrinking resources. We are far from fighting our last war. You people are incredibly naive.

[-] 4 points by BTKcongress (149) 12 years ago

you should know the facts, there is no chinese buildup. the US spent 9 times what the chinese spent on defense last year. learn facts, don't repeat what those ignorant news drones conjure up.

[-] 1 points by RogerDee (411) from Montclair, NJ 12 years ago

War mongers from 2000-2008 we were going attack Iran. How many times did we hear that? COld War thinking still exists, in the minds of some.


[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

Really... and now the US appears to have started a new arms race with Russia and middle eastern countries frightened of being next on the hit list.

[-] 2 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

Well, at least you're admitting that the wars started by our conservative leaders have been about resources and not insulting everyone's intelligence by saying they're about "freedom."

[-] 0 points by conservative4change (12) 12 years ago

"... wars started by our conservative leaders...." - let me see:

WW1: Woodrow Wilson, the most progressive president ever, got us into that one.

WW2: Franklin Roosevelt, a liberal Democrat, got us into that one.

Vietnam: John Kennedy got things going, and Lyndon Johnson escalated it - both Democrats.

Yeah, it's those damn conservatives alright.

[-] 3 points by circlingheart (25) 12 years ago

why stop with those 3? List them all, so we can see how many wars the the two branches of the Capitalist Party combined have led us into. Be sure to also include the full list of foreign and domestic leaders the two have assassinated or undermined, along with People's Movements sabotaged. Might as well keep going and list the various "cold wars" escalated to keep money flowing to the Empire's legions of doom.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

Heh. But nice try. I'll quote the American Conservative's review of Jonah Goldberg's hack job, which tried to connect the "progressive" Wilson to contemporary leftism: "even liberals get to change their minds once a century." As for Roosevelt, you're seriously going to debate the merits of our entering the second world war? And, as for Kennedy and Johnson, I'll grant you that. But, again, we've decided we were wrong. I'd like to see the conservative that admits he's wrong. Being prejudiced in favor of isolationism (which means, besides not entering foreign wars, not doing a damn thing to help anyone else out when they're in a bind) may have made you come to moral conclusions, but it didn't make you moral people. At least we have the courage to admit when the people who claim to be on our side were wrong, including our current president (I suppose you'll blame us for being lied to). When are you going to own up to your owning Bush and his two wars (be honest and tell me if you voted for him the second time)? Feel free to come back with the mantra "he wasn't a real conservative" - it would have sounded more genuine if you had said it during his eight years in office.





[-] 1 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 12 years ago

I don't agree with you at all, I think OWS has managed, and I don't know how it's done such a stunningly consistent, brilliant job, to connect many different targeted actions to the broad theme of them vs us. It's an incredible educational assault on the oppression that millions of people suffer but don't know what to do about.

I remember when I was a member of a socialist group in the early '70's one of the party leaders saying, it's not that people don't see the inequality, they just don't think they can do anything about it. Well OWS has already done something about it--in fact, did you see an incredible story on the news today? Marshals in Atlanta were sent by the bank to evict (yes, this is true) a black woman almost 104 years old and her 83-year-old daughter, who'd been living in a modest house for the past 50-some years. The two men who were supposed to evict them refused to do it. Yes, they had morals and principles, but OWS has set the tone in the country where people feel supported in fighting the banks. I'm sure that OWS was part of the reason those marshals felt secure in acting on their humanity.

Noam Chomsky said something very astute (as usual) in an interview, that Iran's nuclear program was the logical response after seeing what the United States did to Iraq. I'm obviously horrified along with millions of others at the thought of a nuclear Iran, but Chomsky pretty much said it: with the US possessing how many thousands of warheads, what's an unarmed country to do?

PS The only reason for shrinking resources is the failure to put people to work in humane, well-paid jobs. I can't believe how big just this country is--when you see it from a plane, it's awe-inspiring to see how much land is out there--there's plenty of room to plant crops, develop software, create a high standard of living for everyone. Those many people aren't just consumers, they have unlimited creative potential. But we're so used to being told there's not enough to go around--it's those public sector employees who are bankrupting us, not the 1%... Thank God OWS is leading us out of the fog of propaganda to a true understanding of our plight and our future.


[-] 5 points by LoveAll22 (26) 12 years ago

The turning point, which I hope is soon, is when no one enlists in the military anymore. The day good citizens of the world refuse to kill people to promote "democracy" or "freedom" is the day we will truly have democracy and freedom.

[-] 1 points by BNB (89) 12 years ago

I hope I am wrong--and I support the OWS movement--but I doubt I will ever live to see a day when no one enlists in the military.

[-] 0 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 12 years ago

the day no one enlists in the military, is the day the US goes back to the draft, and compulsory service like other countries. So glad we have it better than other countries.

[-] 1 points by LoveAll22 (26) 12 years ago

I guess I view it this way: one day we will all realize that we have been used by the gov't. Gov'ts figured out a long time ago that all they need to do to be powerful is to lie to the masses about the need to fight enemies and ridicule/imprison those who oppose that. That happened in Germany in the 1930's and it is happening now. For example, the US gov't right now is trying to pass a bill that would give the military the right to imprison anyone indefinitely without a trial. How is that American? Using the military against our own people within the US borders is strictly prohibited in the US Constitution. Their justification? Congress says "we are at war" so we have to do this. At war with who? Of course there are folks out there who wish to do harm and break laws - there are - but deal with them as a law enforcement issue, not a military one. And how big is this threat that puts us at "war"? Is the US on the brink of being overrun by evil? Of course not. Its absurd to think so. Travel to other countries such as Russia and China and you'll see that 99% of their populations are families, trying to enjoy a peaceful life, just like families in the US. So once a majority of the world's population figures this out, then no one will enlist and no one will allow themselves to be drafted. The world can then use its power and strength to overcome poverty, hunger, widespread disease and destruction or our planet's resources.

[-] 0 points by rainman3769 (6) 12 years ago

. . . . really. . . . you dont want a military anymore. . . . wow, you are clearly very intelligent. Those without arms can still die upon them.

[-] 7 points by SeaChange (134) 12 years ago

There's a difference between having a military for the purpose of defense, and having a military-industrial complex that seeks only profit, and lobbies against the US's own interests. (Personally, I think the US should have no interests in invading other countries based on fabricated intelligence, by the way.)

Here's just one example of how the interests of the military-industrial complex are opposite of both the troops and the country (not to mention the taxpayer, if that's a concern of yours, since their profit has to come from somewhere when it's not from selling arms to various dictatorships.):


[-] 5 points by LoveAll22 (26) 12 years ago

Having a large standing military has become obsolete. There are no large groups of armies that can "sneak" up on us anymore, so no need to pay for huge armies to defend against something obsolete. In addition, the military is supposed to be defensive, not offensive. We stopped playing defense in 1945 and since then have been on the offensive. Think of the hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children that have been killed by the US military in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan since 1945. If people refused to kill offensively, that is the turning point. And yes, I am very intelligent, thank you.

[-] 7 points by vnayar (289) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

Just as a clarification, the United States did not have a permanent standing army outside of war time of any substantial size until AFTER 1945. Having only a skeletal set of structure, administration, and officers was pretty normal for the vast majority of America's history. In the event of an emergency, a draft would be called and incentives would be offered to build an army to meet the threat.

There was never a need for a large standing army in the first place. We went without one from 1776 to 1945. And as records have been declassified, we now know that all the reports of massive military forces in the USSR after 1945 were inflated far beyond reality. The founding fathers were quite clear on avoiding a standing army to prevent the possibility of a military takeover of civil society.

I don't think people before President Eisenhower predicted the merging of military and industrial interests, but the solution set forth by the Constitution, of avoiding large standing armies unless there is a declaration of war, would have prevented our current dystopia.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 12 years ago

Agreed. Just to clarify, though...the U.S. killed at least a million people in the Vietnam conflict alone.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

According to the government in Hanoi, 1,100,000 North Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong military personnel died during the Vietnam War[4]


[-] 3 points by vnayar (289) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

Nobody said we had to disband defensive forces like the National Guard. There is too much confusion between offensive and defensive use of force and it is a logical fallacy to claim that a person opposing offensive use of force to "spread democracy" is against self defense.


[-] 4 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Good idea and a good action will follow, I'm sure.

[-] 4 points by GreenIguana (36) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Quite likely most of these firms are operating in violation of the Arms Export Control Act, which is rarely enforced.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

The Arms Export Control Act of 1976 gives the President of the United States the authority to control the import and export of defense articles and defense services. It requires governments that receive weapons from the United States to use them for legitimate self-defense.


[-] 3 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 12 years ago

Good stuff...it is imperative that we do what ever is in our power to shut these forces of evil down and stuff them back into the magic lamps from whence they came.

[-] 2 points by JosephCouture (45) 12 years ago

Even in a very large room of total darkness, a tiny point of light can be seen from a great distance. Lots of people feel frightened and hopeless at all they see around them. But if there were no good left in the world, we wouldn’t still be here.

Read “The Beauty of Hope Remaining” at www.josephcouture.com

[-] 2 points by al734 (3) 12 years ago

are there any reports of what happened at these rallies?


[-] 2 points by windfeldt (3) 12 years ago

Here is my opinion and a thought to OWS. While companies make billions they lay off thousands some times. And while CEOs some times make 10-70 million a year they help lay off thousands of workers..

And I will use wal-mart as an example here it can be any big company. Wal-mart makes billions a year and their CEO makes millions, yet the workers make lousy wages, and even worse benifits. Yes the company owners took a risk, but have been repaied for such time over. And with out the thousands of workers that risk is nothing, for if, workers were to unite across America to demand $7-12 more an hour to thier wage and 20% off healthy foods, giving wal-mart a week to two weeks at most to rpely/comply. If wal-mart says no having 35,000-50,000 workers walk out of wal-mart would devestate the company profit wise if, they did not comply. And the extra $7-12 an hour would not empty the CEo pocket nor the company profits to much at all to pay better wage and such.

It is just a thought to organize such, any comments? Oh yeah it might send a message so hard to the mega rich that the poor can unite and kick the rich where it hurts for greed..Their pocket book.


[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

i think the time for a national strike is coming.

[-] 2 points by AUSCitizen (8) 12 years ago

"Through their state legislatures and without regard to the federal government, the people can demand a convention to propose amendments that can and will reverse any trends they see as fatal to true representative government.", - President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

I think it is time ows and others organize better and form conventions for Article V changes. Unity in message and directive will make you a more powerful entity. The more powerful your entity, the faster you will get the changes.

[-] 2 points by Zendude (75) from New York, NY 12 years ago

So wonderful to see we are targeting war mongers! There is nothing that beats munitions as the definition of planned obsolescence. Wasn't it Eisenhower who originally warned of the military industrial complex? Nothing has changed. Tax dollar goes into defense, corporate profit comes out.

Even our entry into the Viet Nam war was based on cover up and deceit. How much profit was made during that war? The entire Gulf of Tonkin resolution came about because the US was covertly using our navy to support South Vietnamese military action inside North Vietnam. We provoked the attack on the Maddox and the destroyers that were inside North Vietnamese territorial waters. Don't take my word for it, listen to the audio tape recorded on August 3, 1964, which was released by the Johnson library, in which President Johnson and Robert McNamara openly discuss the operations and admit the provocation: http://whitehousetapes.net/exhibit/gulf-tonkin-1964-perspectives-lyndon-johnson-and-national-military-command-center-tapes

How many more of our service men and women need to be sacrificed as collateral damage (meaning the corporations couldn't care less who dies--they only want more purchase orders to fulfill) while the war machine continues to profit each and every second? Enough will be enough when the sleeping giant, the 99%, have fully awakened. We are not there yet, however we are awakening more and more with each passing day, and we will not be defeated!

All for one, once and for all!

[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 12 years ago

We have spent trillions of dollars on two useless Wars!!

What's worse is we spent trillions every year just to keep our military strong so we can squander them in these useless Wars!!!

What an incredible waste of money. And the repugs attack social programs to fund this malaise as if those programs are the cause of the deficit hole we dug. And their leader, the decider, Bushwacko, is directly responsible for such a blatant misuse of national treasure.

Bush lied and good courageous Americans died.

[-] 2 points by BlowTorch (6) 12 years ago

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction and that certainly fits the situation now seen at the highest levels of power in Western civilization. In essence, the story is that the true source of power in the West, control of the financial system, fell into the hands of fanatical religious cultists who wanted to artificially make the prophecies in an ancient religious text (the Torah or Old Testament), come true. This fraud-based is enterprise is now falling apart. The result is unprecedented chaos at the highest levels of power in the sect-controlled governments of the United States, England, France, Italy, Germany and their slave states. One of the immediate triggers is a lawsuit that was filed in New York on November 23rd, claiming the assets of the global financial system belong to the people of the planet and not a powerful religious cult that uses the United Nations as a façade.

[-] 1 points by BreadLandPeace (359) 12 years ago

Could you please tell me what lawsuit this is? Thx!

[-] 2 points by JPMagoots (0) 12 years ago

Wonderful idea. These are the enablers of our favorite war criminals like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

And the new breed of Hillary, Obama and Geihtner

[-] 2 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 12 years ago

Thank you OWS, for Keeping the Focus on the 1%, like the Military Industry. Fair-ness.

[-] 2 points by bigbangbilly (594) 12 years ago


With protesting nonviolently could get us moral points (from art of war). Avoid agent provocateurs and any remnants of mkultra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra.

[-] 2 points by nrama (18) 12 years ago

Here is a thought. If every mother's child refuses to carry a weapon there will be no wars. Until now this would have been a laughable idea. There is a glimmer of hope that the idealistic younger generation , so fed up with the hypocrisies of the older, may actually swing this around. The energy is there.It is not,however, going to be easy, as well entrenched attitudes practiced with flagrant observable failures over hundreds of years, must be put to rest. The president who,I believe, sends his children to a Quaker school must surely believe in their philosophy that ,in my opinion, is the closest to the Jesus ideal.


[-] 2 points by Argentina (178) from Puerto Madryn, Chubut 12 years ago

The registration fee is $895 , where can we get 89500 usd , to make a 100 people "mic check" inside the conference.


[-] 2 points by warbstar (210) 12 years ago

Now it makes sense. The Senate is creating the "indefinite detention law" because the military is in town bribing the Senate.

I wouldn't count on Obama vetoing the bill. He is just threatening that because he wants more bribes.

[-] 3 points by Windsofchange (1044) 12 years ago

If this awful bill passes I worry for this movement and others. We would be in a full-fledge police state by then.

Everyone needs to be talking about this bill because it will strip us of our rights as American citizens. Please see this commentary titled Beware of the NDAA. http://www.wpix.com/news/blogs/lionel/ They were testing us years back to see if they could get away with this and we failed apparently.

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 12 years ago

For two days in a row now, amendments that would have fixed the bill were defeated. We are literally looking at the Senate voting in favor of giving the military police powers over American citizens.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 12 years ago

Yup, Feinstein's was rejected this afternoon and no surprises the bill passed in Congress. I am soooo disgusted right now. I hope and pray that this bill doesn't become law.

Here is a video commentary that nails it when talking about the b.s. presently going on in this country. http://www.wpix.com/wpix-lionel-on-pix-gallery,0,5078472.story

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 12 years ago

My American neighbors (mostly far right conservatives) simply turn-off their brains when I start describing this ADAA 2012 bill's provisions for "indefinite detention."

They literally believe I'm just making this stuff-up. If they do happen to believe me, they comment on the horror of the bill and continue their routine lives. They literally believe that since it is part of the fight against terror that anything goes. Further, these nut-jobs believe that indefinite detention cannot happen to them. No alarm, no shock, no light goes on in their head, no demand for action, just a blank stare and nothing. If I explain that Senator Hatch voted in favor of “indefinite detention” they figure it must be okay because they believe he is a staunch constitutionalist, a great defender of human rights, immune to all corruption, and worse.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 12 years ago

You know what because they are brainwashed to believe that Government has got our best interest in mind. They are the people that keep saying that America is the best country in the world and they will go on and on about, not realizing that the very freedoms that made this country great is being taking away everyday. They are living in the past.

Also, the blind trust they have in their senators is truly sad. They will have the rug pulled out form under them--then they will realize that this country and all Americans (and yes-- that includes them) have been sold out.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 12 years ago

The wealthy (and that of course also includes the weapons industry) control policies so this is not surprising. That´s the way it is, and that´s what´s got to change

The Occupy Movement should now, as I mentioned in the article "The Transition Phase: The Road to Freedom", react with non-violent means including protest and an increasing number of strikes; sit-down strikes, local general strikes, all of´em.

Noam Chomsky on social change

Noam Chomsky on alternatives to capitalism

Noam Chomsky at Occupy Boston Q&A

"The Society We Should Strive For"

yours s. struggleforfreedom

[-] 1 points by AUSCitizen (8) 12 years ago

"Through their state legislatures and without regard to the federal government, the people can demand a convention to propose amendments that can and will reverse any trends they see as fatal to true representative government.", - President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

I think it is time ows and others organize better and form conventions for Article V changes. Unity in message and directive will make you a more powerful entity. The more powerful your entity, the faster you will get the changes.


[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

"Habeas corpus (Latin: "you may have the body")[1] is a writ, or legal action, through which a prisoner can be released from unlawful detention. The remedy can be sought by the prisoner or by another person coming to his aid. Habeas corpus originated in the English legal system, but it is now available in many nations. It has historically been an important legal instrument safeguarding individual freedom against arbitrary state action. It is a writ requiring a person to be brought before a judge."


I understand non citizens are already to subject detention without representation

[-] 1 points by warbstar (210) 12 years ago

The Fienstien ammendment just failed. The Senate is actually voting in favor of indefinate detention two days in a row now.


[-] 1 points by SuzannahBeTroy (28) 12 years ago

http://youtu.be/z0LjE7WO5tI video from protect outside Credit Suisse

[-] 1 points by Godan (5) 12 years ago

I understand and support the movement, but they need to be more focused in order to progress and accomplish their goals, instead of fighting a war on all fronts. They should address their concerns with the companies in the DOW 30 Industrials - starting with Big Brother, IBM. IBM is a huge supplier to the war machine, they even supplied the Nazis with the machines used to count the Jews. IBM has done everything it could to make its employees powerless against the corporation from killing any semblance of a union to firing anyone who questions company policies concerning cutting benefits. Out of greed, IBM has given very few, if any any raises in the past four years, dramatically reducing earnings and disposable income of the workers. At the same time IBM demands more hours and productivity from the overworked people who are left. The result is a reduction in the trickle down effect which would provide jobs throughout the economy. IBM is now reducing employment in the US and outsourcing to reduce costs for more profits. IBM is cruelly forcing its first line managers to give one employee in their department a performance deficiency letter each quarter, even if everyone is doing a great job, so they can later "manage people out of the business" instead of laying them off with a severance package and unemployment insurance. IBM has systematically killed its competition until it is once again a monopoly for the large computers that run the world. IBM has several targeted campaigns today against competitors like Oracle, Microsoft, HP and others, which will cost jobs and further reduce competition. Meanwhile IBM hoards cash, uses cash to buy back its stock, or to provide large bonuses and stock options to its executives. IBM also uses its cash to snap up small companies and then fire most those workers as their technology is assimilated into the company. Occupy Wall Street should occupy IBM headquarters, expose IBM for what it does, and bring this company to its knees. Then other large companies will understand the power of this movement.

[-] 1 points by SuzannahBTroy (10) 12 years ago

To OWS : Remember my YouTube parody Mayor Bloomberg re-ed Michael Powell NYTimes re: his very good piece NYPD abuse of media on your day of protest...? NYT waited almost a week to do an editorial -- shameful. Note: media coverage of OWS Credit Suisse protest. Interesting huh ? You really really have them scared.

[-] 1 points by Treadlightly (2) 12 years ago

The strength of this movement is awe inspiring. Finally, we have found our voice and it is music to my ears. I personally have been waiting about 40 years for this. My first march was in downtown Fort Worth and It felt great to shout out the message and stand in unity with all the others who have been waiting just like me. Right On.

[-] 1 points by ByronicCoward (2) from Bronx, NY 12 years ago

But the F-22 is so f-ing cool and we already canceled that. Why should we cancel the F-35 then. I mean shit dude. Don't you guys know http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

The problem with these jets, is it's hard to keep the pilots from passing out.

Drones are the future.

[-] 1 points by ByronicCoward (2) from Bronx, NY 12 years ago

I thinks that what we're planning for 6th Gen. Super awesome and maneuverable UCAV. So unless u think we could just upgrade our 4.5 (to 4.85 gen lol) Gen to last us until the 6th Gen is in production, I don't see how we could avoid not spending some of this shit. Not to mention, a lot of our allies, CAF, RAF, AADF, JASDF, and RoKAF are expected to buy/acquisition/produce some of these planes for their air forces. Now that Russia and China are building 5th Gen Craft of their own. I mean we did kinda dig our own grave here, but what are we gonna do here. Not build it?

[-] 1 points by kmmr12 (1) 12 years ago

Keep doing what you are doing you are making the difference.

[-] 1 points by DaAscendingOracle (13) 12 years ago

"We have it in our power to start the world over again" - The moral and political thought of Thomas Paine

Occupy Manifesto Suggestion...

"Independence is my happiness and view things as they are without regard to person or place. The world is my community and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine


a) Remove political influence of power and money from the government.

* Corporations are not people and the government is by the people for the people.

b) Adopt a policy of sideways economics as opposed to trickle up & trickle down economics.

* Identify business globally that are reputable and believe in the moral values of the Occupy movement and encourage the people and businesses to trade with each other as opposed to trading with the corporate and global powers that represent the 1%. This is sideways economics, keep the money within the circle of the 99% and refuse to trade or do business with any entities that lie within the circle of the 1% or trade with the 1%. Afterall, money talks and if we stop giving the 1% our money they will either adopt new standards OR they will feel the effects of lower profits.

c) Hold politicians accountable

* Assign a task force designed specifically to track and reports all votes on legislation & campaign contributions.

d) Commit to vote.

* If you will not vote, you should not be a part of the Occupy movement. Voting should not be based on party affiliation but based on the ideals and values of the Occupy Movement. Revert back to the above recommended manifesto as the foundation for the ideals and values.

e) Religion and the 1%

* Do not be afraid to question the influence of religion and the cover it provides many who are both in government and outside of government to push forward agenda items aimed towards the manipulation and control of the 99%.

This is 5 point start, a good foundation that will create on-ramps directly to the heart f the problem and gives a united theme for how to create a specific message.

Thomas Paine was considered treasonous by the founding fathers because of his view on the moral good. As an african-american, I find it ironic that a man who in the very beginning was against slavery was run out of the country simply because he believed that 'All men are truly created equal' & 'Separation of church and state is necessary in order to have a government of the people by the people.'

At the end of the day, the Occupy Movement is about justice.


[-] 1 points by Peterpan1008 (2) 12 years ago

Also no offence but I would like to see the 99% versus 1% breakdown as think this is a cute slogan but with no mathematical support.

[-] 1 points by Peterpan1008 (2) 12 years ago

Seriously you thought that standing outside an office had an impact? Hmmmmmmm!!!!

[-] 1 points by SuzannahBTroy (10) 12 years ago

http://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/ows-credit-suisse.html and Mike Bloomberg dirt http://mayorbloombergkingofnewyork.blogspot.com/2011/11/justice-alice-schlesinger-you-rock-mike.html and intro 48 to have all empty buildings accounted Quinn blocked as told to me by Picture Homeless links in text portion of tube http://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/christine-quinn-sue-christine-quinn-on.html. And learn Amanda The People's Burden the most evil commissioner City Planning NYC gov she and Bloomberg responsible for largest displacement corrupt zone busting real estate deals since American Indians http://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/rudin-profits-people-die-amanda-burden.html

[-] 1 points by bklynsboy (834) 12 years ago

THIS is the crux of the US and world's problems: endless wars, win or lose, for profit. America is crumbling: cuts in education, roads, bridges, health, tunnels, states, cities, towns, research, education, seniors, veterans, police, ports, parks, arts, fire departments, .....EVERYTHING except the military. NO other country in the world spends on the military like the US. Fire all politicians advocating this. Build America first.

[-] 1 points by KeenAwareness (66) 12 years ago

I worked as a waiter at a catered event for aviation defense. I had no idea of the cease pool of human darkness that would be asking me for drinks that night. These people are cold, non-compassionate reptilian scum who feed off our ignorance and fear. MARCH HARD TOMORROW! Wish I could be there

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 12 years ago

All these people understand is war and the making of trillions of dollars in doing so. Heaven forfend if those making the decisions about these weapons ever had to be on the front line having to actually see the misery they cause. Here's an idea--the next time an "event" takes place and they just miraculously have a need to show off their military power (even though that war probably wont or cant be justified--as most wars this country goes to are'nt), those who are in the highest positions of power go and be on the front lines and then maybe people will be willing to sacrifice their lives or their childrens for a just cause. Instead what happens is they hide out in bunkers and make the decisions to have others lives end while they and their buddies get filthy rich (Scumbuckets!!) What happened to when this country was founded and its true original leaders were the first ones on the battlefield risking their lives for a better world? Guess it is'nt about making a better world for those who are in charge, it's about making a dollar--or lots of dollars that is. Hard to see in this current world how Wall Street runs everything is'nt it?

[-] 1 points by ouijee (2) from Harwich, MA 12 years ago

Dear Protesters, Thank you so much for your work bringing our discontent out into the open. And please understand what I'm about to say is said with nothing but support.

It's time to draw back and plan. If these protests end in bloodshed, they'll be no support left, the message will be forgotten, and the work will have been for nothing. There is a tipping point drawing near----you can be known as rabble rousers without a clear cause or you can organize better and challenge the highest degrees of disparity in the U.S.

You've caught nation-wide attention, now use it smartly. Back to the drawing board to define a list of priorities that will enact change. The protests were the first step. I don't know what the next step is, though I certainly want to understand. A protest is only as good as the change it creates and so far, the voicing of discontent, and speaking for so many of us has been admirable, but much work is left to be done. I say: go quiet. Disappear. All at once. Let silence be the tool used for greater surprise. Come back when a plan is fully fleshed out, something those of us who are not in the protests but are supportive of, can stand proudly behind. It's not enough to simply protest, what is needed is a dedicated plan to make right a government gone wrong. Good luck, stay safe. The future requires you.

P.S. I realize these comments are out of topic for this page. Not sure where general comments should go.

[-] 1 points by AUSCitizen (8) 12 years ago

"Through their state legislatures and without regard to the federal government, the people can demand a convention to propose amendments that can and will reverse any trends they see as fatal to true representative government.", - President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

I think it is time ows and others organize better and form conventions for Article V changes. Unity in message and directive will make you a more powerful entity. The more powerful your entity, the faster you will get the changes.


[-] 1 points by Peterbrauer (10) 12 years ago

Here are the brave patriots who put their bodies into the gears of the machine this morning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQDplZrY5Yo

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

That is radical.

And it is leftist.

[-] 1 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 12 years ago

Great Idea !

[-] 1 points by EveningLand (1) 12 years ago

What this nation needs is a people's army, and that, of course, means conscription. What we do not need is an army of mercenaries (i.e paid soldiers).

If we had had a people's army on September 11, 2001, the four hijacked airliners would have been contained, and the attacks prevented. Instead, we had a military serving private interests and in the hands of greedy psychopaths who, in all likelihood, wanted to create a casus belli for endless wars of conquest and a pretext for military bullying of foreign nations not to the liking of corporate Amerikkka and fanatical ideologues such as the neoconservatives.

The present U.S. standing army of mercenaries was created after the Vietnam War protest movement to bypass the people and turn the military into the exclusive arm of Wall Street, large scale industrial interests (which are private interests), and, of course, the armament industry.

The United States is the largest provider of weaponry in the world, and thus the largest enabler of armed conflict. It is also the most belligerent nation on Earth.

The millitary-industrial machine and its Empire of military bases established all over the world are ruining this country: they must be stopped and dismantled, before anything else. See the link for the pie chart of the U.S. tax dollars allocation at the end of the blog entry, above.

[-] 1 points by Cocreator (306) 12 years ago

We Are The People, We Are the Power, Unified in a Common Struggle against a common enemy, We Will Prevail, We Will Overcome.We Are One

[-] 1 points by yelenam (1) 12 years ago

This is extremely important, but today the DEC is also hosting hearings on HYDROFRACKING! And people who feel strongly against it should come. Hearings will be from 1-4 and then 6-9 at the Tribeca Performing Arts Center. We need people. Please do not let them legalize hydrofracking in NY. This will be a severe problem! Please encourage others to come. We need as many people voicing their opposition as possible!

[-] 1 points by GaeaHeathen (1) from Independence, MO 12 years ago

I wish that I could be there with you today. This group represents one of the most dangerous aspects of the 1%. Their activities have resulted in so much death and destruction. Decades ago President Eisenhower warned the people of the danger this group represented. Thank you to everyone who is there to speak out against them.

[-] 1 points by Feminist81 (10) from Washington, NJ 12 years ago

I am with you in spirit.

[-] 1 points by Edwin (47) from Anseong-si, Gyeonggi-do 12 years ago

I live in Asia right now, but my heart is there with you... and my $$$

[-] 1 points by Peretyatkov (241) from город Пенза, Пензенская область 12 years ago

To South-Korean People! With Love, from Russia.

[-] 1 points by Edwin (47) from Anseong-si, Gyeonggi-do 12 years ago

Thanks, but I am a Canadian living in Seoul. I support Korean people protesting Free Trade with the USA. They've been out every night since it was ratified. So have the riot police-- 1,000s of them with water cannons and tanks.

[-] 1 points by Edwin (47) from Anseong-si, Gyeonggi-do 12 years ago

Fabulous. Great stuff. I love you all.

[-] 1 points by wewontgetfooledagain (23) 12 years ago

I read that the true cost of recent wars is in the TRILLIONS of dollars. I support defense of our country but it makes me sick to see the lives lost and tax money spent on fake foreign offensive wars approved based on Bush's lie that Saddam has WMDs. They should have just got Bin Laden then got the hell out.





Google "Bush ties to defense contractors." NEVER vote Republican as they are the most pro 1%/war/everything bad for the 99%.

Defense contractor and related lobbying and campaign contributions alone is enough reason to outlaw the practice. War should never be for sale.






[-] 1 points by bigalxc0220 (9) 12 years ago

This is awesome!! Wish I lived closer to NYC so I could get in on this.


[-] 1 points by hiddenwheel (83) from Newton, MA 12 years ago

Does anyone know the details on the bill passed that is expanding indefinite detention of suspected "terrorists" to American citizens? I.E. imprisonment without trial. (National Defense Authorization Act) It was on Fox news of all places. Strange.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

It is language in a new bill. The bigger picture is, the law to do this already exists. It is Part of the Patriot Act and has already been used twice that I know of. Two American citizens were arrested in teh U.S. and catagorized as enemy combatants. To date they are in a prison somewhere the first being there since 2003 I believe.

[-] 1 points by hiddenwheel (83) from Newton, MA 12 years ago


[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

There are case studies on both. I actually wrote a paper on it for my terroism law class last year.

[-] 1 points by windfeldt (3) 12 years ago

Just a thought, does this "terrorist hunt" sound any thing like a witch hunt? Mccarthy era tactics or such?

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

Not in these cases. I think that there was enough evidence to support the arrest of both. I don't know if I agree that they should be held as enemy combatants without due process.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

Give them hell on behalf of all that cannot be there!!!!

[-] 1 points by Sovjet (19) from Mačvanski Prnjavor, Central Serbia 12 years ago

If a value becomes more valuable then human, then the value must be devalued, in order to make a human value, valuable.

                                                   -Nenad Kostić, human revolutionary
[-] 1 points by Daniel1984 (44) from Wiley Ford, WV 12 years ago

And the top news stories on the web pages of Google, Yahoo, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC are about a Marine who is suing because his employer said he is mentally unstable, Conrad Murray (the dude who killed Michael Jackson) and the number of women who did have sexual relations with Herman Cain. We are the last line of defense here. As Afrika Bambaataa wrote, "(N)othing stayed the same, but there were always renegades."


[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 12 years ago

lol, now I see where all the pro-war rhetoric comes from. Its difficult to justify sustaining that level of military spending when your not in a constant state of war... especially when the Red Menace is no longer a looming threat.

Where are all those conservatives complaining that the government is taking their money away and giving it to someone else? They could get free education plus a tax break if they joined OWS in stopping this nonsense.

[-] 1 points by samplocracy (26) 12 years ago

lets hope they don't start another war with syria or iran or pakistan... god knows where that would end up....

i've started a new blog on direct democratic systems if you are interested have a look: http://samplocracy.wordpress.com

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

pakistan has nuclear weapons


[-] 1 points by mha (142) 12 years ago

"Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul"

Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin’ But build to destroy You play with my world Like it’s your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers For the others to fire Then you set back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion As young people’s blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mud

You’ve thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain’t worth the blood That runs in your veins

How much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I’m young You might say I’m unlearned But there’s one thing I know Though I’m younger than you Even Jesus would never Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die And your death’ll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I’ll watch while you’re lowered Down to your deathbed And I’ll stand o’er your grave ’Til I’m sure that you’re dead


the sun is setting on the century and we are armed to the teeth we're all working together now to make our lives mercifully brief and schoolkids keep trying to teach us what guns are all about confuse liberty with weaponry and watch your kids act it out and every year now like christmas some boy gets the milkfed suburban blues reaches for the available arsenal and saunters off to make the news and the women in the middle are learning what poor women have always known that the edge is closer than you think when the men bring the guns home

look at where the profits are that's how you'll find the source of the big lie that you and i both know so well in the time it takes this cultural death wish to run it's course they're gonna make a pretty penny and then they're all going to hell he said the chickens all come home to roost yeah, malcolm forecasted this flood are we really gonna to sleep through another century while the rich profit off our blood? true, it may take some doing to see this undoing through but in my humble opinion here's what i suggest we do:

open fire on hollywood open fire on MTV open fire on NBC and CBS and ABC open fire on the NRA and all the lies they told us along the way open fire on each weapons manufacturer while he's giving head to some republican senator

and if i hear one more time about a fool's right to his tools of rage i'm gonna take all my friends and i'm gonna move to canada and we're gonna die of old age


[-] 1 points by Davis (2) 12 years ago

The post is written in very a good manner and it entails many useful information for me. I am happy to find your distinguished way of writing the post.




[-] 0 points by frustratedme (0) 12 years ago

Where the hell is everybody, there's no one in the park but a few stragglers...



[-] 0 points by rebel9999 (24) 12 years ago

The military/industrial complex has been destroying America for the last 60 years. President Eisenhower warned us to beware of the military/industrial complex and no president has ever listened to him. We HAVE TO vote the Republicans out of public office if America is to get better economically because the Republicans are supporting the military/industrial complex as well as the financial abuse by Wall Street and the rich. As much as you may say that the Democrats are responsible too for some of these problems we the people have a better chance with getting the changes we need from the Democrats than the Republicans. We will NEVER get the changes we need from the Republicans! So don't take the attitude that you won't vote because of this or that reason because if you don't vote or vote for a third party candidate then you are only voting for the Republicans because your actions will cause the Republicans to win. Read my web page at www.mybetteramericaplan.com to see how the Republicans are destroying America. Read my Current Events section to see how to legally shut down Wall Street until they and Congress pass laws, regulations and policies that will end the financial abuse that the rich put us through. Help get as many people as you can in any way that you can to read my web page so that we can make this revolution a success!

[-] 1 points by bklynsboy (834) 12 years ago

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Democrats want endless war too: Obama escalations, more jets, bombs, missiles, ships, subs, as does Clinton and Kerry. Dems and repubs are the same with different wrappers: endless war win or lose for profits.



[-] 0 points by MVSN (768) from Stockton, CA 12 years ago

They do not export death. Governments do.


[-] 0 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 12 years ago

Written evidence the OWS movement is getting to the 1%. The link is a letter written to President Obama from a wealthy CEO. Initially posted by A.R. Sorkin. http://bit.ly/snlVHT

[-] 0 points by yoss33 (269) 12 years ago

Glad you guys are getting right on top of this. Support & Solidarity from Canada.

[-] 0 points by bigbangbilly (594) 12 years ago

Do they have weapons hidden somewhere? If they have metal detectors use briefcases with no metals to hide wooden signs. Infiltrate and surprise protest.


[-] 0 points by jjpatrick (195) 12 years ago

Obama's number 1 in receiving these funds from the all theweapons dealers combined such as from Boeing: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=D000000100&type=P&cycle=2008&state&sort=A

Why all these drone strikes by Obama? http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000000317

[-] 0 points by BTKcongress (149) 12 years ago

one word: osprey--the completely unnecessary marine favorite quasi-helicopter program that's cost you, the taxpayer, $38 billion. it is a microcosm of the entire military with $800 toilet seats. waste waste waste waste. osprey is sold to congress by lobbyists for favors and money, and justified publicly on the theory of saving lives and fear mongering, so if it saves 10 lives each is worth 3.8 billion so far..... can that person reimburse the treasury that amount????

[-] 2 points by rainman3769 (6) 12 years ago

Did any of the OWS protestors plan on reimibursing the city the 3.4 million they caused the city to spend in overtime for police depts and sanitation crews? yep, didnt take long to find a gaping logical flaw in your theory. BTW, human life is always worth more then a price tag, at least if your not a complete piece of s**t.

[-] 2 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

This is stupid on so many fronts. Just really, really stupid.

First of all, as someone else mentioned, the city chose to use the excessive amount of police they've used so far. I was in LA a week ago and there were (count 'em) seven police cars, mostly empty, around the site, and I didn't see more than three officers while I was there, nor did I see any of the barricades the NYPD keeps adding to the ones they've already put around Zuccotti Park. Oh, and by the way, Occupy LA is at Los Angeles City Hall! Again - the occupation at a city hall has almost no police presence; the occupation in a small quasi-public park several blocks from Wall Street (which has no legal title) and even farther from City Hall is usually "guarded" by at least 30 police officers.

Second, do some fucking math. Really. Let me say this one again, and send it out to all of you who keep bringing up the cost of the occupation - DO SOME FUCKING MATH. First of all, you've got your number wrong; the total cost of the occupation to date is around 7 million (so let me add to my previous suggestion, read a fucking newspaper - I mean, here's one situation where it would even help your "case"). If you divide it by the number of New Yorkers (9 million) this comes out to less than one dollar per citizen this year. We're sorry the exercise of our constitutional rights has cost New Yorkers less than a dollar. If you need the money so bad, send me your address and I'll mail it to you personally. I'll even round up to a whole dollar to compensate you for the trauma you've suffered at our evil hands.

Third of all, not that I'd expect you to know logic any better than math, but it's hardly a "logical flaw" to say we should reduce spending in one area while adding costs in another (not that we're advocating that the city spend this money on us - as I said, I think it's been a huge waste). You may not like our claim, but it's not a logical flaw. You might as well say we're contradicting ourselves because we're advocating a reduction in the defense budget while spending money on food when we eat dinner.

Fourth, let's put one through three aside and just look at the way law enforcement works for a minute. No one is forced to pay an indemnity to a political body for the cost of policing him or her. You don't have to pay back the jailhouse for the time you spent there when you get released, you don't have to hand a police officer a few coins for the time he spent writing you up a speeding ticket. So why are you even asking us to pay anything back, even if we were at fault for something?

Fifth, contribute something serious or fuck off. We're all sick of troll idiots on this site.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

the city choose to spend 3.4 million on police action

[-] 0 points by BTKcongress (149) 12 years ago

billions vs. millions--it's a matter of magnitude and materiality and the gap is so far apart that your comment is laughable and misdirected.

[-] 1 points by cthun30 (1) 12 years ago

So the ends justify the means, "do as I say, not as I do", etc. Up to and including draining taxpayer money to clean up squalid encampments. Awesome.


[-] 0 points by SuzannahBTroy (10) 12 years ago

http://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/mta-dirty-dealings-from-saic-nyc-tay.html  Read this -- NYC gov was and is bringing in companies that deal with military and the MTA -- there was the dirtiest deal with SAIC and we fought it tooth and nail.  We got State Comptroller NY to put the kibosh on it and SAIC and MTA said F-you.  We finally got the deal killed but MTA just got another company just as scandal ridden as SAIC!  NYC gov has been shoveling money to SAIC and Northrup Grumman and all their sub-contrhttp://suzannahbtroy.blogspot.com/2011/11/mta-dirty-dealings-from-saic-nyc-tay.html  Read this -- NYC gov was and is bringing in companies that deal with military and the MTA -- there was the dirtiest deal with SAIC and we fought it tooth and nail.  We got State Comptroller NY to put the kibosh on it and SAIC and MTA said F-you.  We finally got the deal killed but MTA just got another company just as scandal ridden as SAIC!  NYC gov has been shoveling money to SAIC and Northrup Grumman and all their sub-contractors and partners robbing and raping tax payers with NYC gov blessing.  Christine Quinn brushed aside two investigations in to CityTime and SAIC!  It was simple math they were robbing us.  Great work tomorrow -- we need help here NYC gov.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfnGDuHUQNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player Here I am with Local 375 asking for 1 billion dollars back from SAIC in front of NYC offices.   Bloomberg asked for 600 million of our tax payer money back but he was low balling us and no nyc gov officials arrested.  Gee, I wonder why.  Only innocent protestors arrested. SAIC main headquarters by CIA.    Google Vanity Fair SAiC and read the article.  It is old but you will get it.actors and partners robbing and raping tax payers with NYC gov blessing.  Christine Quinn brushed aside two investigations in to CityTime and SAIC!  It was simple math they were robbing us.  Great work tomorrow -- we need help here NYC gov.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfnGDuHUQNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player Here I am with Local 375 asking for 1 billion dollars back from SAIC in front of NYC offices.   Bloomberg asked for 600 million of our tax payer money back but he was low balling us and no nyc gov officials arrested.  Gee, I wonder why.  Only innocent protestors arrested. SAIC main headquarters by CIA.    Google Vanity Fair SAiC and read the article.  It is old but you will get it.

[-] 0 points by Redsuperficiality (96) 12 years ago

It is good that OWS is attempting to engage with the immediacy of everyday events. The system is so integrated that every institution, organization and really citizen in an advanced economy is implicated. The system is such a sophisticated hegemony if a better society can be articulated that integration and implication can be turned against it. But it has to be articulated. OWS needs to engage in what is happening AND make coherent a practical alternative.



[-] 0 points by SuzannahTroy (31) 12 years ago

Wow -- this is awesome. I wish you knew about SAIC and Northrup Grumman NYC gov dirty deals and they raped and robbed us mega-millions to billions and Bloomberg.

[-] 0 points by sufinaga (513) 12 years ago

remember they are also illegally organising a violent fascist federal police force through the DHS, a fascist institution in its inception, supposedly democratically supervised through Peter King which has been violently attacking OUR PEACEFUL PROTEST. remember there are fascist agents among us, christians believing in a christian muslim armageddon and freemasons believing in the war economy for our economic survival. remember the DHS is saying we are the enemy and treating us like terrorists because this war on terror is the fascist suppression of our global revolution. the DHS is training the police in violent suppression and controlling the mayors to organise the illegal evictions. now the ENEMY is in the open!


[-] 0 points by SuzannahTroy (31) 12 years ago

Today I screamed down Bill Rudin. I asked him why can’t we have a hospital where St. Vincent’s was. Is it because he is not high enough on the billionaire’s list?http://youtu.be/6_eil1bDFCE


link above to this youtube and tubes of me confronting bloomberg - city hall steps he gives me thumbs up and Dave Paterson outside WOR re: violence toward women spousal abuse for protecting his 6 foot 9 pal Dave Johnson and politely silencing the victim.

anyway good luck tomorrow and I wish you would join us by St. Vincent’s. Why were we forced to illegally bail out banks. Why haven’t we bailed out hospitals. 17 closed here.





[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

Well, I guess we won't find any future pilots here, will we?

And we won't find any technicians or engineers, either, will we?

US defense industries employ how many millions of people? And that doesn't include military personnel.

Civilian tech absolutely pales in comparison to that employed by the military.

And what of defense industry exports? On the order of what, a hundred billion?

[-] 2 points by SpacePope (3) 12 years ago

As an engineering student, I've actually decided not to pursue a job in the aviation industry. This is a big deal to me because my dad was a pilot, I plan to be a pilot, and my inspiration to become an engineer was Burt Rutan, the man who - along with his brilliant team of engineers - designed the first privately funded reusable manned spacecraft.

It's true that a lot of our groundbreaking research is funded by the military-industrial complex, but that's a bug, not a feature. When the military controls research, AI research turns into unmanned killing drones, acoustic research turns into LRADs, and radio research turns into active denial systems. I am becoming an engineer to make the world a better, more awesome place for everyone. Why would I - or anybody who cares - want to be a part of the current system?

Edit: I forgot to mention that I'm not going to be working in the aerospace industry because pretty much every aerospace company is either failing or suckling at the military spending teat.


[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

Engineers employed by the defense industries typically make less... but ALL aerospace tech, including that which is privately funded, is weapons based.

Our future will be in commanding space.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 12 years ago

"Commanding Space" ?! You're not seriously advocating 'Full Spectrum Dominance' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-spectrum_dominance ) are you ?!! fiat pax {et Tres Bien OWS!}

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

Well, duhhh... and so is our government.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 12 years ago


Well in that case 'betua$', better start getting 'lock step' with your Pentagram Masters ... or if you believe in "liberté, égalité, fraternité", you might have to take to resisting, protesting and 'Occupying' ! Now there's a thought ;-)

Resistance Is Fertile & IF y'all haven't noticed The Pie Chart above, here it is again for your reflection : http://www.warresisters.org/sites/default/files/FY2012piechart-color.pdf !

fiat pax.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

When are you people gonna stop promoting your BS sites?

Considering our present economic circumstance, I think it rather foolish to advocate anything that puts Americans out of work. And I get tired of all this self-righteous nonsense.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 12 years ago

betU@$ : http://www.warresisters.org/sites/default/files/FY2012piechart-color.pdf is NOT a 'BS' site I assure U & ... just how long can this Bankster Backed WAR Economy keep consuming The U$A ; its Citizens & The People of The World ?!

fiat pax, fiat lux et ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

As long as we're printing the money we can do it indefinitely.

[-] 1 points by SpacePope (3) 12 years ago

"ALL aerospace tech, including that which is privately funded, is weapons based." I'm curious what you mean by that, exactly. I can think of a few different ways to take that, and I want to make sure I'm listening to what you actually mean.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 12 years ago

All aerospace, beyond mere transportation, is either scientific and therefore resource based or militaristic - they both serve the same end..

[-] -1 points by ferditekin (16) 12 years ago


Announced to the whole world, this document is 2012 after the closing date for the start who want to start your paper, whatever your intentions here. Can not use for those who want to start your response. Seek justice in case of units in the world, an official request in this regard would be more accurate to consider this statement. On the other hand will receive the same notice as a formal application. Please do not move with the political path, or method, this is not strictly a political federation, not an an army federation, not a stratejical tactic play federation, not a play the time game federation, not a secret listening play deferation, not a secret service create and intelligence-gathering play federation, not a religious play federation. Decision-makers in this country which must be approved by the approval of the protocol is started only once and then only temporarily hold the can. Federation members and employees who intentionally blocking, as the lead in the family until the charge penalty imposition fusillade (first Turkish Republic members (TBMM), all worker, all family, European Human Rights of all members of all family, because you are not a human rights, possible also the only animal right, if you not apply this your nations not come please). In addition to the preparation or response, please do not want to start thinking like a human being here, or if you have reasons to begin the write here. Some are political, waiting for the federation not wants to implement, but federation does not choise your nation. Federation not play games play center. Want to play games go to beach, or go play center. Write your decision here if I said my nation play the game. This protocol is not prepared according to the demands of human intelligence for special behaviour, İf you apply this method all of which disappear in space. This protocol is prepared according to the structure of space, but is organized according to levels of human intelligence. This is not transmitting any announcement until the day the press about the protocol, even though his dog in their own countries. Protocol not wait country dog. Make sure that those who work for the construction of this protocol is the future of the human race than all the people who think. If you have a faulty part of the protocol, not as a reaction to it, as a report of research results reported clearly for appropriate. All the studies prepared for the protocol that has very high economic value for the person/groups who prepared. Every good thing as a good value economics or alike. Something of not value for the welcome everyone who wants to be, does not understand the value of something they wish to not have. No good things who will think destroy some goods, for good eating is not prepared the bad stew. In the federation does not except that; mass movements of people around the world against the something out of a motivation strategy that implements the views of the unknown next event. Human are not motivated like animal, such as it is called provocative human being. I hope to review the protocol is the most important things human existence, but it really is very difficult to educate people. Moves up in the federation of mass self-communication tools and technology used to carry out without harming the other party. Please, do not hurt yourself mass actions.

[-] -1 points by Renaye (522) 12 years ago

Finally! Some real truth coming out! Thank you.

[-] -2 points by usernameah (36) 12 years ago

Wonder how many OWSers are happy consumers of animals.


[-] 0 points by BTKcongress (149) 12 years ago

yep, predator here. love to eat them because i was designed by God to eat them.... we are categorized by biologists as "omnivores" not "herbivores"--there are plenty of those too, some of them are delicious, my favorites: elk and salmon.

[-] 2 points by LoveAll22 (26) 12 years ago

Really? Designed by God to eat them? Tell me about that that design. Do you have sharp claws to bring down prey like other predators? Do you have the digestive system to eat raw meat? Somehow I bet that if you were left naked in a field of elk, you might have a tough time capturing, killing and eating your prey. Of course you will probably respond that with your "intelligence", you have a gun or some other weapon that would assist you with your killing. But who made guns? God or people? So, God did not design you to eat animals.

[-] 0 points by BTKcongress (149) 12 years ago

you are an omnivore too, not an herbivore. like every other homo sapien.

[-] -1 points by rainman3769 (6) 12 years ago

God designed us to survive I would imagine. Besides, God is in everything right? So he was in the mind of the first person who first developed gunpowder and everyone that improved firearms from then to now. Bet you cant explain that line of logic away

[-] 3 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 12 years ago

Once again, you're using the term "logic." I'm going to suggest you look it up. Not that this claim is illogical, at least formally speaking, but still, after the rest of your idiotic comments, I'm still suspicious. Oh, wait, here's why -your premise is wrong. If God were in everything, at least according to the hypothesis you've constructed (that God was in the mind of people who created and improved firearms), then God would equally be in the minds of rapists, murderers, people who desecrate the flag, voting for non-Republicans, and (gasp!) terrorists. And so, following the enthymeme you constructed (by the way, I want to suggest, again, that you look up logic - you've constructed an enthymeme, which is properly a rhetorical, not a logical, formula - you left out the conclusion), if gunpowder is a good because God was in the minds of the people who created it, then rape, murder, flag-desecration, non-Republican voters, and terrorism are all really great things because God is in the mind of the people who do those things.

That's all I have for now. Time to hit the books, smart guy!

[-] -1 points by Don8878 (-1) 12 years ago

As a military veteran I don’t believe in war profiteering but I do believe in a well armed military. Since the Revolutionary war Americans have put their lives on the line and have died so others can have freedom and rights. Many military members support the OWS movement for Democracy. Those of us who are retired have seen and are seeing more of our benefits cut are just as outraged seeing the cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. However you probably should have left this one alone and God out of the picture. God not only designed man (people) to eat animals but gave man dominion over all animals. God gave man (people) the intelligence to invent weapons. Before guns were invented people used sticks, rocks, spears and the bow and arrow to be used to hunt, not to kill each other. But as greed goes there are those who promote war for profit gaining the spoils and the wealthy have no problem looking to sacrifice the lives of others. Please keep in mind that freedom has a price and many have paid that price and the ultimate sacrifice. Many of these companies hold the opinion that should be able to sell the products they manufacture to anyone or any country always expecting the US military to protect them. Politicians and appointed officials knew and did not care about the law that it was illegal to sell weapons to a country that would use them on their own people or against the US. It’s easy to see the spending issues but to the same token it is easy to see that greed is in full swing as Republicans are looking to push the wealthy Americans federal revenue responsibilities and bill to be paid by the majority. The facts are that under the Clinton administration there was enough revenue to cover the budget and was paying down the deficit. Republican made attempts then to cut social programs and retired benefits but were shot down. So for the next eight years Republicans created this enormous deficit focusing on social program budget cuts while hiding their agenda against taxes for the wealthy. If all those tax breaks for the wealthy were done away with everyone would see that the revenue would cover the budget and pay against the deficit again. As a people we must be watchful to stand against politicians who push security issues while calling for sacrifices to our freedoms and rights.

[-] 1 points by LoveAll22 (26) 11 years ago

I suppose all humans seek justification for their thinking. To think and act as you do, there is only one way to justify it: Believe that you are superior to all other living creatures. But that is fear and ego based thinking. I base my thinking on Love. I do not believe we are superior to other living creatures - I believe that living in harmony with all life is God's way. People at one time thought the earth was flat. Perhaps somewhere in your spiritual future, you will see that the earth is not flat.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 12 years ago

humans cant eat grass so they don't eat everything