Sunday, NYC: Silent March to End Stop and Frisk
Posted 12 years ago on June 17, 2012, 8:03 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Tags:
call to action,
nyc,
stop and frisk
via SilentMarchNYC.org:
The Silent March to End Stop and Frisk
Join Civil Rights, Faith, Labor and Community groups in a silent march against NYC’s “Stop and Frisk” Policy! On Father’s Day, let’s stand together to show that New Yorkers refuse to let our children be victimized by racial profiling.
Father's Day
Sunday, June 17th - march begins at 3 pm
Assemble on West 110th St. between Central Park West/8th Ave. and Fifth Ave.
- Enter the assembly area from the west or from the north, NOT from the east!
- You can begin gathering as early as 1pm, but remember - the march starts at 3 pm!
- Closest subway stops: Cathedral Parkway (110 St) on the B and C trains, Central Park North (110 St.) on the and 3 trains.
- Please check subway schedules for any changes.
- Contingents are being assigned locations within the assembly area. Please check back here in a few days for details.
March route
- The march begins at 110th St. and Fifth Ave.
- We will march south on Fifth Ave. to 78th Street.
- Mayor Bloomberg's mansion is on 79th St., just east of Fifth Ave.
REMINDER: this will be a silent march for the entire route!
What to Bring
- Wear comfortable walking shoes.
- Put on sun screen and/or wear a hat, especially if it is a sunny day.
- Carry a bottle of water.
- Posters, signs, banners - but remember that you cannot use wooden or metal sticks!
What Not to Bring
- Do not bring any noise makers or musical instruments!
In contrast to previous demonstrations, we will march in silence as an illustration of both the tragedy and serious threat that stop and frisk and other forms of racial profiling present to our society. The silent march was first used in 1917 by the NAACP—then just eight years old—to draw attention to race riots that tore through communities in East St. Louis, Illinois, and build national opposition to lynching.
Now, 95 years later, you can join us in powerful protest to help end this great injustice and begin rebuilding national opposition to racial profiling.
If you're outraged that police, security guards and even community watch volunteers in so many neighborhoods continue to treat young people of color differently, or if you're concerned for your children, or your neighbors' and friends' children, then channel these emotions into action by joining thousands in calling for an end to racial profiling and the abuse of New York's stop and frisk laws.
Silence is a powerful force that, like other forms of non-violent protest, holds a mirror to the brutality of one's opponents. On June 17, we will hold up a mirror to New York City's stop-and-frisk policy. It is not only discriminatory, it actively seeks to humiliate innocent citizens—particularly African American and Latino men—and criminalize otherwise legal behavior.
The Facts about Stop and Frisk
In 2011, NYPD officers conducted 685,724 street stops, a more than 600 percent increase since Mayor Bloomberg’s first year in office when officers conducted 97,000 stops. More than 4 million people have been stopped under this administration.
The massive spike in street interrogations has done little to remove firearms from the streets, the ostensible reason behind the stop- and-frisk regime. Instead, the wholesale violation of civil rights has sown mistrust between police officers and the communities they are supposed to protect.
Nine out of 10 people stopped are totally innocent, meaning they are neither arrested nor ticketed.
No gun is retrieved in 99.9 percent of stops.
The proportion of gun seizures to stops has fallen sharply — only 780 guns were confiscated last year, not much more than the 604 guns seized in 2003, when officers made 160,851 stops.
- Though they account for only 4.7% percent of the city’s population, black and Latino males between the ages of 14-24 accounted for 41.6% of the stops in 2011. The number of stops of young black men exceeded the entire city population of young black men.
This is one I can get behind. Stop and frisk is a violation of the fourth amendment the the United States Constitution.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
I will be with you in spirit since I can not get to NY.
It would be great if people carried a laminated copy of the fourth amendment in their pockets so when someone is "stop and frisked" that is all they find.
That is a great idea.
OWS should make some T-shirts with our rights written on them then sell them to raise money for the cause. We could hire people without jobs and base the company around anarcho syndicalist principles. It would serve as an example that such companies can work good, and we'd have useful T-shirts as well.
Still I like the idea of people pulling them out of their pocket when confronted and seeing the expression on the cops face.
Try getting pulled over and giving them one of those cards that has all the rights on it...
That is just silly.
I assume you mean getting pulled over for breaking the law which is very different from being stopped on the street and interrogated under the Bloomberg stop and search policy.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty." -- Benjamin Franklin
“I'm convinced that you never have to give up liberties to be safe. I think you're less safe when you give up your liberties.” -- RonPaul
True. Their expression would/will be unforgettable. I think I might just do that. Good to pull out a small video recorder too like a phone or something.
You mean that shiteating grin he'll have as he throws you up against the wall for being a smartass?
You would have a great lawsuit case if an officer threw you up against the wall for carrying part of the US Constitution in your pocket.
Unfortunately, we live in two America's. If it came right down to your word against the cop, the social pecking order would likely determine who a court would believe.
Just curious, do you stinkle every post I make just because?
What was stinky about my comment?
Were you offended by the idea of carrying the forth amendment or the part about having a case?
I would get the news media involved if it happened to me.
I twinkled the part at the top about you getting behind this protest and I agree with protecting rights. I also twinkled your comment about the statue of liberty the other day(on some other thread I think). I'm not offended by your comment, I just offered a different perspective, so no, I did not stinkle you. I thought we had a better rapport - when have I ever failed to let you know when I really disliked something you said.
OK thanks.
It just seemed that whenever there was a reply from you the points on my post are 0 or -1.
They went back up on this one so someone else must have twinkled.
Even though we disagree on most things I feel we should not stinkle the very few where we agree.
Ditto. I'm not trying to burn any bridges.
First, anarcho syndicalists need to figure out what those principles are :)
Spain, 1936 revisited (for whom does the bell toll exactly). A romantic idea, chopped to pieces by fascist warplanes, but the romance notwithstanding, anarchism is the road to nowhere. I like some of its ideas, but I can find a few good ideas in virtually any ideology. Proudhon, Kropotkin, Goldman, Bakunin, et al, interesting reading, but in many respects, seriously flawed.
Like socialism (downhill since Robert Owen), anarchism has been going downhill since William Godwin (although if I had to rank its thinkers, I'd rank Proudhon as the best, his unfortunate personal inconsistencies and bigotries notwithstanding).
1960's protests succeeded for very easy to understand reasons. First, while there was plenty of disagreement on tactics, there was a much clearer vision. Secondly, while there were some anarchists involved in the 60's movements, they weren't misled into believing they could construct an anarchist model within a preexisting (and well developed) urban setting. The movement focused on the achievable, and I will appeal to Proudhon in saying that such a radical idea can only have a hope if approached gradually (and by people humble enough to admit they could very well be wrong).
Furthermore, the 1960's protests were strong on college campuses (and the momentum on college campuses, for OWS, has been dissipating). They also had good music (and yes, as trivial as it may seem, shit like that is actually important).
It would be great if people embraced the U.S. Constitution in total, not just the parts they like.
I agree.
Most of the constitution however deals with the three branches of government, their role. It is congress, the president, and the Supreme Court that need to follow those articles.
The first ten amendments (Bill of Rights) are a very important part of the Constitution. Nine of them are entirely about protecting the people from the government. The tenth deals with the power granted to the states. Our forefathers were for limiting the size and power of the government.
It is my opinion the neither the Republicans nor the Democrats in congress, or the President for that matter, have much regard for the constitution. They seem to ignore it all the time. There are a few that do work and vote based on the constitution however I can count those on one hand.
copy paste print laminate
I know how to do it silly. So I do that and now one person has done it. I was thinking of something bigger than that.
I hate losing property to searches
I don't understand the last graphic. It's header says "Stop and Frisk black and Latino New-Yorkers", but then shows graphics concerning interrogation.
Since when is interrogation the same as frisking?
Syncronicity: Rodney King died today, the day of the silent march in Manhattan against police brutality and mass incarceration.
It's good to advertise for a march some days before a march. Posting this news article on the same day of the march isn't too effective.
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/12/opinion/100000001601732/the-scars-of-stop-and-frisk.html
it is not OWS v the cops. it is the cops v OWS. stop and frisk is to seize marijuana and oppress the community. all their fascist actions and redneck preaching is directed SOLELY at breaking up our community. all our actions are expressions of our community and our humanity. all of their actions and doctrines are characterised by their INHUMANITY.
This needs to be followed up on. Candle light vigils outside 1 Police Plaza, City Hall, always with NAACP involvement and (I dare say) NAACP leadership (and defer to them to set the guidelines for the actions). Also, if the NAACP asks OWS to support something like a Jobs program (even if it's initiated by democrats or whatever), OWS ought to do it.
Every time I walk about in the streets of Downtown Sacramento I need to be aware of vehicles around me, esp. black-and-white Sacramento Police Dept. squad cars. Though here in the Capital of California we have numerous cops, agenda and undercover fiends. I dare not go outside without my ID or I get a little nervous. I am tall, Chicano with long hair. @Peta_de_Aztlan
I've been searching for a live streaming, but only found one that isn't working well. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/occupyalbany#utm_campaign=inagist.com&utm_source=10023019&utm_medium=social
If you know of another streaming of the event, please post it here.
Occupy City Heights (San Diego)
is upset over the curfew set in the neighborhood
doing sweeping arrests of young people out at night
this was on david letterman the other night. my question is.. why did the idiot new yorkers ever vote for such a person for mayor in the first place?
Bloomberg has spent scads of his own money to get elected and re elected. Also The nature of the population has changed. There are more wealthy people living here and fewer working class and poor ethnics. What once were poor or working class communities are now the stomping ground of the well to do, many not born here.
The same reason the rest of the nation elects idiots....they dont know the difference. Its party lines, and thats it.
No, when New York was "party line" things wee not so bad as they are now. Bloomberg got elected the first two times as a Republican, and the last time as an "Independent." I miss the old "tax and spend Democrats."
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-talking-about-the-good-old-days-for-good-reason/
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if ya want to put an end to stop and frisk...........knock one of those pigs the fuck out when they roll up on you like that
putting an image of a man nailed to a cross into children's minds is CHILD ABUSE. there are christians among us preaching this child abuse. they have an hidden agenda to undermine our community. THEY HAVE PUT MY POST AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE TO SHUT ME UP. THIS IS A CHILD PROTECTION ISSUE. OWS is failing to protect our children and leaving our community vulnerable to their infiltration. this must be stopped! CRISTIANITY IS THE CORPORATE RELIGION THE ENEMY WITHIN OWS.
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But Stop and Frisk has saved lives and put criminals away.
even a mass murderer kills a few bad people. you are repeating BS propaganda to justify harassment of our community and the THEFT of harmless weed from our youth. you are a police supporter and therefore an enemy of our community. just look at Lt john pike pepper spraying the students. look at all the police violence against us. the police are PSYCHOPATHIC BULLIES. they are freemason thugs protecting this tyranny. wake up!
Of the 10% they do ticket or take action on, what is the distribution? When they do stop the white young person are they more likely to get a violation? I mean the whole thing on it’s face is wrong, I’m just asking can even more evidence be developed showing how biases they are? I mean if they stop blacks/Latinos more but have fewer violations per stop then it is quite oblivious isn’t it? Take this out to the less than “normal” groups, say old white guys, and I bet the results would indicate a completely different stop ratio would be in order, but that would defeat the purpose wouldn’t it? When it’s really about putting your boot on the neck so to speak.
I doubt there is a racial component. Obviously if they are in a predominately black or Latino or neighborhood there will be a higher number of blacks or Latinos interrogated.
That said, they really should not be stopping and interrogating people in general without probable cause.
Did you even read the article?
I did. Did you read my comment? Let me explain.
If the crime rate is higher in a borough or neighborhood that is predominately black or Latino there will be more police presence (at least I would hope so) therefor there will be more stop and checks. It makes perfect sense.
Take a look at this map of crime rates and statistics and you will see what I mean. You would have to know the demographics of each area but it is pretty clear that is how it happens. http://nymag.com/docs/08/01/080114crimemaps.pdf
the link you provided provides no useful information to the subject at hand, is it your position that the crime rate amoung young black men was greater than 100%? because the stop and frisk rate was
IT is really quite simple. The point was that there are more cops on the beat in those precincts therefore more stops.
There are an should be more cops because the murder rate is 28/yr, 31/yr as opposed to 1/yr and 2/yr in lower Manhattan. The rapes, robberies, and assaults are magnitudes higher in those precincts as well.
I am not defending the policy of stop and frisk. You can see that by my other post at the top of this thread. The one with 11 points.
you are claiming there has been no racial biases when clearly there has, when stop and frisk of young brown men is multiplies of times either their numbers or the crime rates in their communities, only by looking at how many stops result in violations can you see if there is over enforcement of the law. you imply but don't provide any evidence to show this extremely high crime rate that would be required to justify the difference in rates, yes the policy should be stopped and how it was applied looked into
You are assuming it is racial bias. When there are 37 times more murders and 300% more robberies and assaults in the precincts that happen to be predominately Latino and black they assign more cops to that precincts. Are you suggesting they put less cops in those districts?
IDK the answer.
So you contend they don't patrol the "safe" neighborhoods more? If my city is any indication the well off folks get their calls answered pretty quickly. Nothing you have said addresses the actual question of. Are the stops of blacks/Latinos more or less often good stops? Of the stops of whites do they "hit the mark" more often, if so, why are there not more stops of that type.
Yes that is what I contend. There are more officers on the payroll in the precincts where the crime rate is higher.
I am not sure what you mean by a good stop. I contend that there are no "good stops". Stopping and searching someone without cause is a violation of the forth amendment.
the ostensible reason for stop and frisk is to instill fear into the youth. the real reason is the seizure of marijuana. the INTENT of the prohibition of marijuana is to disrupt the life of the community. marijuana is brain food. it is the true holy communion. it is the plant of renown of ezekiel 34 v29. it is the tree of life of revelations growing in the midst of the street (inside the houses hydroponically under grow lights) and on either side of the river (on both sides of the tracks, in all classes of society)! cannabis resin is the precious dew in the heat of the harvest that ran down Aaron's beard. the INTENT of the christian doctrine of original sin is to break up family and tribal COMMUNAL relationships. putting an image of a man nailed to a cross into children's minds is CHILD ABUSE. telling children their mothers and fathers are sinners is GROOMING. christianity was invented by the romans and used by the british empire to BREAK UP THE TRIBES. this is the continuing INTENT of the policy of stop and frisk and the hidden intent of christians among us! we want our lives back! we want our money back! we want our lands back! we want our tribes back! we want our community life back! we want an end to the prohibition of marijuana NOW! child protection will destroy christianity. women's liberation will destroy islam. exposure of their PSYCHOPATHIC VIOLENCE will destroy the police. ZIPTIES ARE EVIL INSTRUMENTS OF TORTURE.
"FILM THE POLICE" B. Dolan ft. Toki Wright, Jasiri X, Buddy Peace, Sage Francis
Your Facts about Frisking near the end of your article seem more about interrogations than frisking. Do you know the percentage of people stopped and interrogated which are actually searched? It seems to me there is no law in stopping someone to ask them questions.
An illegal frisking would be a police stopping someone and then searching them even though they refuse. If the police asks the person if they can look in their bag and the person agrees, then that is not illegal frisking.
I'm sure illegal frisking happens, and it's obviously wrong, but your article blurs the issue quite a bit between stops, interrogations, and illegal frisking. It doesn't seem honest.
They should not even ask. A young man being approached by a policeman and asked show me what is in the bag is not going to feel secure in his persons, houses, papers, and effects. The officer is a figure of authority and a powerful figure at that.
The officer might even say that the fact the youth would not show the contents of the bag was probable cause.
The graph show interrogations which don't necessarily mean frisking. We don't even know in which cases the police asked to look in their bags, and in which case other unrelated questions were asked. The article is confusing and the data is misleading.
Sure, they should not even ask, but that it not what this article is about.
Just look at the first graphic with the head "Stop and Frisk". Then, underneath it says the graphic is the number of stops. It says nothing about frisks. This is simply dishonest. We should call things what they are.
I understand your point and that is common propaganda technique however I feel interrogation can be construed as a violation of the forth amendment, especially if it is repeated.
If you are interrogated and interrogate and asked what's "in the bag" are you secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures?
Now you can take that in a literal context and say the officer did not force the search however I believe that our forefathers wanted us to feel secure in our personal property. They had lived through a time where "red coats" from the British army would stop you and interrogate you every day. They believed in limiting the power of the government and it's enforcement.
The article is talking about youths and even if asked "where are you going" the answer for me at that age was often "nowhere". The knowledge of where I am going is my personal property. My thoughts are my personal property.
You might be right that interrogations can be construed as a violation of the fourth amendment, but what you think or feel in this regard is of little significance. We would need a judge to decide for us.
But, all this is beside my point. I simply think that if we are going to build a better world together we must to it honestly and with the scientific method. There should be no logical fallacies and other tricks involved. I think this article is based on trickery. Some things might be true, but since it is sprinkled with logical fallacies and seems to want to trick me, it's hard for me to take it seriously.
If this article is about the fact that interrogations should be considered as breaching the 4th amendment, then the writer should be clear about that.
I get the feeling that the writer feels that interrogations are the same as searches.
A youth does not often understand his rights and for an officer, who is a figure of authority, to leverage that ignorance is an offence to me.
Probably better than a silent march would be a gathering to teach these youths their rights and why the forth amendment was created. I really believe handing them cards with the forth amendment on it would be great. I would love for these kids to hand them to the officer when they are stopped and interrogated.
"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Certainly, ignorance is not a defense and the best way to protect ourselves against police trespassing the line is to be well educated as to what our rights are. But, again, this is beside my original point.
I don't know the reasons the author of this article wrote what he wrote and chose to write it in that style, but I know it's dishonest and this is all that matters to me. The name of the march is "Stop and Frisk". It is not "Stop or Frisk", and not even "Stop and/or Frisk" and it doesn't not say anything about interrogations in the title of the march. None of the graphics in the article show numbers concerning "Stop and Frisk". They show numbers concerning interrogations.
If OWS cannot write honest articles that don't try to trick readers like bad propaganda, how can we criticize the government and mass media for doing the same. We must be more disciplined in the way we report the news ourselves!
The sad part is that there is no reason at all to twist the truth. The government, mass media, and rich corrupted bankers have their hands dirty enough for us to report the dirt as is, without spicing it up with logical fallacies.
You'll note that I razzed Underdog (usually a scientific minded and sharp poster) for the very same reasons. He linked to a video based on the logical fallacy of correlation without a cause. I believe these things are hurting OWS more than helping. http://occupywallst.org/forum/sorry-republicans-these-are-the-facts/
Note: I twinkled your comments in this thread in the hope that they will make it to the Best Comment section and attract forum users to read our discussion since I believe it is important.
I was not suggesting ignorance as a defense. I was suggesting education as a protection against tyranny in the spirit of Dr Franklin. Many do not know when their rights are being violated.
I don't think the author was intentionally dishonest in this case. I have seen that on this web site but I do not get that from this post. There are certainly some blatantly incorrect posts that I was called all sorts of names for attempting to correct.
I guess we will have to disagree honorably.
I didn't claim the author was intentionally dishonest. He or she probably lifted those graphics from another site. That's probably why they don't provide the source for the numbers. I simply remarked on the problem in the hope that it would be fixed and not repeated, but I admit I don't think this will be the case as I have seen very bad reporting practices on this site.
"If OWS cannot write honest articles that don't try to trick readers"
Sounds like you were to me. Perhaps you let your frustration with some of the other posts spill over into this one.
There are some good components in this movement. I was more in sync in the beginning when it was mostly about the bail outs and crony capitalism. It realize it was taken over by the far left and the unions. It seems they tried to jump on any cause around in "solidarity" so they drifted and appear to be wondering aimlessly.
I was pro Tea Party when they started with "send a teabag to congress" when the bailouts began under Bush. They were about liberty and fiscal responsibility. Just as quickly the Tea party was taken over by the far right and religious holier than though factions. First thing they do when they get into congress is try to "define marriage". WTF?
I would be most happy if the Libertarian party could gain some traction in this country. To me liberty and freedom are the greatest concepts to be put into our declaration and constitution.
"Personal liberty is the purpose of government, to protect liberty - not to run your personal life, not to run the economy, and not to pretend that we can tell the world how they ought to live."... "Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces."- RonPaul
Right. You're right, I did say that. I don't know. To me it seems like a huge mistake that a good writer wouldn't even come close to making. Who knows, it's maybe some young 20 year old who just started writing and didn't check his or her sources. Whatever. The end result is that is reads as being dishonest. Whether it is intentional or not doesn't change that, and it doesn't change the fact that OWS needs to be sharper with their news reporting next time around.
Honestly, I think OWS is all about fighting against the cops right now. Anything they can say against the cops they will. They don't really care about much else.
A little research shows where the information came from. The NY Civil Liberties Union. Pretty much cut and paste.
Their director Donna Lieberman said. “Contrary to the mayor and police commissioner’s assertions, the massive spike in the number of stops has done little to remove firearms from the streets. Instead, it has violated the constitutional rights of millions of people and corroded the ability of communities of color to trust and respect the police.”
“I'm convinced that you never have to give up liberties to be safe. I think you're less safe when you give up your liberties.” -- RonPaul
Here is the article http://www.nyclu.org/news/new-nyclu-report-finds-nypd-stop-and-frisk-practices-ineffective-reveals-depth-of-racial-dispar
Thanks mate.
your all polevolting over fly shit
No, the use of honesty and the scientific method are primordial if we are to create a better world. We cannot build a strong foundation using logical fallacies.
You just want to avoid the real issues with your incorrect accusations of fallacies. it's a distraction.
My accusation is correct. Simply look at the first graphic. The header reads "Stops and Frisks", but below it it states that the graphic is about stops (not frisks). This is a lame propaganda trick, most likely learned in some Russian communist camp.
"look at the first graph" NO! The article was fine. Your pretense of believing it is untrue is simply a distraction. Your accusation that the Russian communists are involved confirms your delusion and dishonesty.
I think your distinctions between interrogations and frisking are trivial hence the polevolt
You might they they are trivial, but the law and people doing statistics don't.
your negating the intimidation factor. When a cop stops you and asks if they can search you, you have the right to refuse but you will pay for it in the end. If you comply then your giving them permission but at best it's cooersion rather then honest permission
I'm not negating that. It has nothing to do with my comment. I'm sure the cops are horrible, especially American cops. All cops are pigs.
I simply said that we should not write articles which use trickery. When we post a graph we should put our source and the graph should be truthful and clear. The cops are pigs, so we don't need to use fallacies to point this out. We can use honest graphs. It's easy.
I love how you spend response after response criticizing the author of this article for misrepresenting the facts, and then you throw out a ridiculous generalization "all cops are pigs." Nice job, moron.
I was just pouring fuel on the fire. It was done in full awareness. OWS is more of an anti-cop protest than anything else. They have been creating an Us vs The Cops rhetoric for months now. OWS creates confrontations with the police on purpose so that they can then write about how their rights are being quenched. You know, block a port, then complain you got arrested for protesting.
I wrote many times on this site that we should be with the police, and not against them.
For three months, OWS had no interest in the student protests in Montreal. Why? Because they were only about school fees. They got interested when the government pass Bill 78, a temporary Bill making it illegal to protest in certain circumstances. Then the US vs Cops rhetoric started pouring. Occupy Montreal doesn't talk about student fees anymore, just how bad the police are. That's what makes anarchists horny.
I retract my statement calling you a moron.
Do your own investigating when you have a question. Otherwise, you are only serving to undermine. The truth is "stop and frisk" is a huge problem in NYC. And so is arresting people for no good reason, other than sitting or standing in a place the police believe you shouldn't be but is, in actuality, a public area. They will arrest anyone, for no good reason, simply to fulfill their quotas. Yes, they have quotas to fill. The police, in NYC, are more of a menace than they are a help. We pay them to serve and protect, but they usually bully and harass and fine poor people, for no legitimate reason. And this comes from the top (Mayor Bloomberg, et. al.). They have been creating lots of laws that make it easier to arrest people, such as creating hours when you are permitted to sit in a park (i.e., between 8am and 8pm). If you're in the park a few minutes after, you are fined. This takes place in poorer black and Latino neighborhoods. It's time for you to start educating yourself of this topic. I have personal experience, but there is plenty of information out there.
I didn't say "Stop and Frisk" was or was not a problem. I said the article was dishonest in that it uses headers that read "Stop and Frisk" but then publishes data concerning interrogations.
The problem is mostly likely real, but I don't think we should try to fake numbers in any way. Let's keep our reporting as honest and true as possible. If you say "Stop and Frisk" then talk about that and give us graphics that show numbers specifically about people who have been stopped AND frisked, i.e not just people who have been stopped and questioned. If you want to show the numbers of people being stopped and questioned, then don't put "Stop and Frisked" as the header of the graphic.
If we can't be honest in our own news reporting, then we can't point the finger to mass media or the government when they are not being honest. Let's create a better world by starting on the right foot. Let's keep our reporting clear, crisp, truthful, and devoid of all logical fallacies and trickeries.
My comment was a criticism, not a question. The whole point is that I shouldn't have to do my research if I could count on yours. I can't because I see the numbers are tricked. Thus, yes, I will have to do my own research if I want to know the truth about "Stop and Frisk".
EXACTLY! Your original "question" was a criticism, and it undermines. Your question: "Do you know the percentage of people stopped and interrogated which are actually searched?" So, if the person you asked this "question" to cannot answer this question, their complaints about police harassment are illegitimate. As far as I'm concerned, the percentage is far too high, since I've seen TOO MUCH of the stopping and frisking in black and Latino communities. This article is not dishonest. You are picking it apart to make it appear dishonest. These tactics have been used since time began. I have never, and will never, accept your type of criticism. Meanwhile, you sit on your laurels as black and Latino and poor people continue to be oppressed in very serious ways. You are very sick.
Your discussing everything but the issue of stop and frisk.! this matters because 90% of these efforts target minorities. When someone (in this case minorities) is arrested and convicted they have less chance of getting a job, they have no chance of getting tuition assistance, and they frequently lose the right to vote. So to many intelligent people it is obvious that these unjust tactics are simply in place to perpetrate the continued subjugation of minorities. It is not a coincidence that the war on drugs began a few short years after the voting rights acts of the '60's. No coincidence that the laws are so strict on the small user, more white people do drugs than minorities (simply by virtue of the fact there are more white people) but minorities are disproportionately stopped, frisked, found out, arrested, convicted and imprisoned, and have their lives destroyed. So we must end these unjust police state tactics that the 1% have engineered to persecute minorities.
It's hard to discuss this issue since I have no idea how bad the problem really is. The above article does not show how many people are "Stopped and Frisked". It only shows how many people are stopped in one of the graphics (not arrested or frisked, just stopped), then how many people are questioned in the other graphic (not arrested or frisked, just questioned).
And, what is there to discuss anyhow? Obviously, if a police searches a person without obtaining a warrant or consent that police is in breach of the law and the person should report the matter. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that "Stop and Frisk" is a good thing, or even legal.
This is obvious. It does not need to be discussed.
OK. It's time for you to stop. You can easily educate yourself. But you refuse to. Many victims do report police harassment. Many don't, for fear of reprisal. And the reprisal DOES occur. And many don't because they don't know their rights. You're a complete narcissist.
I didn't say the NYPD are not doing "Stop and Frisk" and a host of other bad things like specifically targeting minorities. I'm sure they are. I only said the above article reads as being dishonest because the graphic headers don't match the graphic contents and there is no reference to the source. If the cops are so bad, and I'm sure they are, then there is no reason to use logical fallacies, we should be able to report the matter in a truthful manner without using any tricks.
Obviously it needs to discussed! It's happening! Maybe you don't want to discuss it because you don't know anything about it, never experienced it. I think the 1% likes to keep the discussion at a minimum. You don't strike me as outraged enough. And you are offering reasons not to discuss this critical issue! Are you anti OWS? Do you support the 99%?
Alright let's discuss it. But first, can you provide me with numbers, facts, evidence? Can you start by telling me where the author of the above article got those numbers? (He or She does not provide a source). Do you have numbers on "Stop and Frisk" and not only "Stop" or "Question"?
I'll more than happy to discuss the problem when the problem has been clarified and clearly stated. What I see in the above article are false numbers that don't mean much in terms of "Stop and Frisk".
Also, tell me what you want to discuss. My position is that police doing illegal stuff should be punished severely. So, if a police frisks someone without their consent or a warrant then the police officer needs to be punished.
It is an effort by the 1% to continue the centuries old effort to persecute minorities in this country. Discuss that. You need facts? so you can find some petty detail to focus on? NO! You ought to know Why don't you know about this great threat to the 99% by the 1%.? I read the article it made sense to me. It corroberated the facts I already knew. An educated electorate is critical to the success of this democracy. Why don't you know?
'Tr@shy : You're ever happy and willing to defend 'The PD', innit ?!!! How come ?!! temet nosce !
[ps & @ New Yorkers : 'NYPD' = Not Your Police Department but Bloombergs & JPMorgan's saps]
I'm not defending the NYPD one bit. I'm only saying the article is not very honest. The figures it provides are more about interrogations than frisking.
I believe it's important to state good facts in support of our cause. We are only hurting our own selves if we use these types of tricks.
Do you know the real numbers concerning illegal frisking? No stops, interrogations, or frisks when the person agrees, but an illegal frisking when the person clearly does not want to be searched and the police search him or her nonetheless without a warrant?
So what? OWS is an international protest and I don't see a forum rule that stipulates only New-Yorkers are allowed to comment here.
Do you have ANY idea what happens if you tell a policeman that he cannot frisk you? DO YOU KNOW? You run the risk of a serious beat down and of being carted off to jail.
Red herring. This has nothing to do with my comment. Cops are pigs. All of them. They kick your ass. Look what they did to Rodney King. This is not the point. The point is that we don't need to write dishonest articles filled with logical fallacies when we can simply write the truth about cops. Why use shady and lame tricks like the graph trick above, when we can simply tell the truth 100%?
They're not using shady tricks. You are the one saying it is a trick. It is not a trick. But it is time for you to do something about police harassment and brutality and mass incarceration. It is time for everyone to insist that it be stopped. But the truth is, those who benefit from the system (you're included in that group) do not want change (consciously and unconsciously). As I said before, you are very sick.
It is a trick. The graphs in the article do not represent "Stop and Frisks" even though their headers say they do. It's a lie. Plain and simple.
I benefit from the system. Hmm... Not really. I'm poor as hell and part of a minority. And, by golly, I do wish to change the system. That's all I want! I want those damn pigs arrested when they do bad stuff. I want justice.
However, unlike you, I don't think justice can come from logical fallacies. Justice and a better world can only be created on the top of the shoulders of truth, and truth can only come from proper research methods.
You remind me of Captain Ahab. ... to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.~Moby-Dick
Beautiful words! Thanks for the poetry, that never lies!
You should remember that ...to err is human. Right or wrong, you perceive an error and jump on it, and associate the worst of human traits to the person who made the error, resorting to calling them liars, tricksters, and persons of diseased minds. Can you not find a better way to make your point of view known other than to automatically ascribe the worst of characteristics to other people. You start from a bad place every time and never give anyone the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do what they perceive as right.
You set out on a personal quest of revenge to rid the world of human fallibility, your own personal moby dick. It is a pointless quest, imo, a whale is a whale after all, and for you to trick your own mind into demonizing the whale into something it is not is the true logical fallacy at work. Quite the tragedy, Captain Ahab...quite the tragedy.
Humans are full of faults so let's leave it at that? What's the point of trying to improve because we are all inherent failures? Nice philosophy.
My argument was not against improvement. It was against turning human error into a disease.
the article was not dishonest. you are for not addressing the real issue appropriately. There were no "logical fallacies" in the article, your own illogic prevents you from comprehending the truth. We aren't using "shady" or "lame tricks", you are, with the petty, pedantic tactics to distract and deflect. All cops are not pigs. That is a meaningless exageration that allows you to avoid the substance of this critical issue.
The article is dishonest. The graphs do not show "Stop and Frisk" situations even though their header reads "Stop and Frisk".
Article - true and fine! Shadzhairart - dishonest, distractor, deflector, conspiracy theorist (russian communists?), stop and frisk supporter ("don't need to discuss"?).Give it a rest. You lost! You have been found out. Dispatched. Dismissed!
Lost? WTF? I'm not here to win anything, but if you don't listen to my advice the only group that loses is OWS. You don't care about good reporting, then so be it. OWS will never create a better world if it can't even create a well research and written news report that is honest without the use of tricks.
Article is fine and accurate. You do not care about the persecution of minorities
OWS lost because it accepted nitwits such as yourself within its ranks. You should go back to playing with your PlayStation.
FYI - I'm black. I'm part of a minority.
It doesn't matter if you are black. The question is, are you a humanitarian. The answer is, "No." Do you care about mass incarceration? Do you care about voter disqualification? Do you care about people who are poor? Do you care about anyone other than yourself? The answer is, "No."
What makes you think I don't care about any of those issues? My comments on this posting are about the lack of research and truth in the presentation of the article, nothing else. You're extrapolating and basically indulging in easy assumptions and logical fallacies. It might taste good, but it won't lead you to the truth.
insults? then certainly I have won! Don't play video games. You are black?. Don't believe you. Since it is unprovable. It is meaningless. What is meaningful is that you have attempted to shut down the discussion about persecution of minorities (when you said discussion is not needed) and you have attempted to distract from the discussion by focusing on petty dishonest accusations about the article.
We can discuss whatever you want to talk about. Post an issue and an opinion about it and I will comment.
Yet you found comment after comment on your made up complaint about the stop n frisk post. You don't have anything else to say about issues related to minority persecution. How about education? any persecution there. You have any comments on how the election process applies to minorities. Nothing unfair about that. Ever hear about redlining? Do you think the subprime mtgs given to minorities who qualified for better rates is an element of persecution. C'mon you have nothing to say but "I don't think theres much to say"
Protest stop n frisk. unequivically speak out against it. decriminalize drugs, remove rules against getting college assistance if arrested. return voting rights to ex cons. "persecution must stop" is not a discussion. because you do not care about this issue you had more to say about some made up petty nonsense regarding the great article posted about stop and frisk. Lets hear you speak intelligently about this issue instead of phoney lip service.
I don't think there's much to say about the issue apart from let's protest the tendency of police trespassing their limits, and let us educate ourselves to know what those limits are.
You had your chance. You wanna discuss something? how about the continued persecution of minorities in this country?
This continued persecution is horrible. It should be stopped. Thoughts?
sort of a training ground for treating people as lesser beings
LOLOL !!! "I'm only saying the article is not very honest", was the point I stopped reading !! WTF would you know about "honesty" exactly ... being a self avowed "sophist" ?!
nosce te ipsum ...
As usual, you are unable to properly counter-argue the points I have raised. As usual, you write in an overly romanticized fashion and show off with lame Latin sayings.
It's no surprise that a conspiracy theorist such as yourself would not demand an article based on real substance and facts, and would be happy with just anything that goes against our common enemies.
"As usual" your self-avowed 'sophistry' precludes any serious response !!! We'll leave your clear predilections for pro-Corporate, right-wing and reactionary positions aside - just for now !!
gnothi seauton !
More ad hominem. If you think I'm a right winger, than you have no idea who I am. And, it does not matter since what matters are arguments and not the proposer. You can call me all the names in the world, my arguments remain standing tall.
The fact is interrogations are not the same as frisking. But, of course, a simple minded conspiracy theorist such as yourself is unable to understand that, and any criticism made towards OWS articles you will qualify as being the doings of republicans. You don't understand that criticism is crucial in bettering ourselves.You're just an Obama water boy. You have little to do with OWS.
That is a big assumption you are making. Ever heard the song by Phil Ochs, "Love Me, I'm a Liberal." You can pretend to be a humanitarian or to care about the oppressed, but will you EVER do anything to change the status quo? No. Because you benefit from the system.
I benefit from the system? How?
There's no assumption. Interrogations and frisking are not the same thing. Just open a dictionary and find out.
You're going to have to analyze how you are benefiting from the system. Tell me more about yourself and maybe I can analyze it for you. But it would be better if you did it yourself. Try to be insightful.
I'm black and I earn under 15k a year.
I ask you how you are benefiting from the system and I ask you to describe yourself, and your description of yourself is that you are black and that you earn under 15k a year. How shallow can you be. I'll ask you one more time. How are you benefiting from the system? How are you benefiting from the police? You have no problem with their brutality, although you claim you do. More than likely, you believe the police are protecting you, so you will look the other way when they are brutal. Not only do you look the other way, which you claim you don't do, but you undermine others in their attempts to bring to light the brutality of the police and Michael Bloomberg. As long as YOU are being served, it's fine with you that young, innocent, black and Latino men are targeted, stopped, interrogated, frisked, brought to the police station. In essence, these young men are interrupted and bullied by brutes, and that's OK with you. So keep pointing your finger at what you say the lie is. Anyone who isn't mentally ill will see right through you.
??? You're hilarious with your zillion assumptions !!! You really have no idea.
It is obvious to me that you believe you are superior to most.
The thing is 'Trashy', even tho' you have moments of lucidity, you have 'worm-tongued & woven' such a web of deceit and duplicity these last few months, that I personally can NOT believe a word you say & now you wish to have each post and comment to be taken in isolation and at face value such that we should forget who and what you are OR how you've behaved ?!!! Are you really so deluded ?!! Get real !
IF you think that I'm pro-Obomber then "you have no idea who I am" or where I'm coming from. Talking of which ... word on the street is you have left Bali for the season to escape all the tedious and excitable ex-pat newbies arriving for the summer and have returned to Canada. Can't say I blame you on that score & I am impressed with how you are evading both harsh winters and irksome sunseekers !!
Finally, re. your "conspiracy" theorising does not add up to a hill of beans & as such, I merely ask that you consider again that while we were not watching, "conspiracy theory" has undergone 'An Orwellian Redefinition'. A “conspiracy theory” no longer means an event explained by a 'conspiracy'. Instead, it now means any explanation, or even a fact - that is out of step with the government’s standardised explanations and that of its Main Stream Media pimps, whores and 'Johns' !!!
ad iudicium ...
I suggest you take a class on geography and climates. Not all countries have summers and winters, and, south of the equator, summers and winters are reversed as opposed to north of the equator.
Perhaps a little traveling would help? It's good to get out of US once in awhile.
I'm not asking you to believe anything I say. I don't ask others to have faith. I'm not into conspiracy theories and religions.
Just open a dictionary and check if interrogation means frisking. Review your laws and check if the laws for frisking and interrogations are the same. Read the article above for yourself and see how the idea of interrogations and frisking are confused.
Use the scientific method and learn to search for the truth the right way. Don't just believe some people and not others just because you feel like it.
Your pettiness is destructive. Interrogating does not always mean stopping and frisking, but often leads to arrest. For example, your sitting on the stoop of a housing project, waiting for you friend to come downstairs after you have buzzed him and let him know you are waiting outside. A policeman sees you and approaches you and asks you, "What are you doing here." You tell him, "I'm waiting for my friend who lives in this building." The policeman tells you it is illegal to sit there and he cuffs you, arrests you and brings you to the station, where you are held for a few days." No frisking here. But stopping and interrogating and arresting. STOP BEING PETTY!
He won't be convinced but I can't help challenging his every falsehood. I am weak.
He is clearly not a supporter of the 99%. or OWS. He seems to frequently distract, deflect from important issues with petty childish gibberish.
I happen to think that proper reporting on the part of OWS is crucial. One of the big problems in America is propaganda and biased reporting from mass media. We should promote proper reporting and not make the same mistake they do. How can we create a better world if we are not better than that?
You're simply here to get high fives, and anytime you hear OWS being criticized, even if it is a genuine attempt to make it better, you freak out and call the person doing the criticizing a republican. Well, guess what, criticism is important as it leads to betterment. But yeah, if you don't care about OWS getting better, go ahead and keep repeating the same lame mistakes.
The article is obviously not very serious. It does not even give its sources for its numbers.
You just want to silence the discussion regarding Stop N Frisk!. You said we don't need to discuss when we obviously do need to discuss. You are attempting to distract by citing ridiculous petty, pedantic non issues while avoiding the constitutional crises this represents to the 99%. You don't kid anybody. You ain't foolin the intelligent people who care about this abuse of power.!
I agree. The best way to start is to properly explain the problem in depth. We can't do that if we use tricks like in the above article. You'll need to be disciplined, sharp, and refuse the temptation of easy conspiracy theories or logical fallacies. You'll have to be honest, and not fall prey to easy and cheap tricky graphs like the above article even if they get you a high five from shadz66 and your other friends.
To solve that problem, you're going to have to know exactly what the problem is, what it breathes, where it lives, everything... And, that my friend, can only be known by using proper research methods.
Good luck on your journey...
You don't know what you're talkin about. The article was fine. You attack the messenger because you disagree with the message. I got 'ya journey right 'ere!
Not at all. If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't be bumping this thread. I made a similar critique to Underdog about one of his postings which is also fallacious. I just want good healthy researched and truthful reporting. You don't want that?
That's a lie. You're on this thread for the purpose of undermining. That is all.
I want to end the police state abuse that the 1% has created to continue the persecution of minorities! That's a little bigger than your petty. pedantic observations. Your accusations regarding "fallacies", "truthful" are just your opinion. You have missed the point. But clearly your goal is just to distract, deflect from the substance of this serious issue.
The problem you refer to is real, but it doesn't explain why the OP of this page uses trickeries. Why not just be truthful?
I don't consider my criticism pettiness one bit. I consider it of extreme importance that we report news properly. The news article above mixes various terms in a dishonest way. I want to build a better world based on truth, on the scientific method, on good research, on proper reporting, I don't want to recreate the mess we have now with mass media using similar propaganda tricks.
All I'm asking is to be truthful. If you have a graphic that states "Stop and Frisk" as the header, then show numbers that pertain to "Stop and Frisk" and not questioning. They are very different issues treated very differently in law.
For all I know out of the 685,724 stops in 2011 (your first graphic) none of these people have been frisked. The header reads "Stop and Frisked", but the graphic is for people who have been stopped. Some of those people were stopped because someone called the cops. Or some other reason. We can't know how many have been frisked because the numbers are just not there.
Why the tricks?
If you're interested in accurate news reporting, watch Democracy Now! If you're looking for perfection (we know you are so that you can detract), continue to do what you are doing. Tricksters like you are repulsive.
The only tricksters are the ones who wrote the article above.
I'm sad that you don't care about good reporting.
"idiot"? insults! . no substance! I win argument!. Do you think if you say it loud enough, or repeatedly, or with angry insults that will prove it? If so you are sadly mistaken. The truth is your color is irrelevant to this discussion. You have attempted to distract from this important issue. Instead you have made false petty accusations, and claimed that there is no need to discuss. Who cares what color you are? You are wrong in any event.
The leap? If you don't let them search you, you risk getting beaten by the police. Get it? We're done here.
Yes, that's horrible. I agree. Cops are pigs. But, that has nothing to do with my criticism of the article.
Do you believe we should use trickeries in news reporting?
NO
.
that got a curfew for children in San Diego
if one looks under 35, I bet that us reason to stop and ask for ID
You haven't watched the video I posted because you don't care about police brutality in NYC. Plain and simple.
Stop and frisk IS police brutality. Get it?
Sure, and it is wrong. My comments weren't defending that practice. Try reading them again after a cup of hot coffee.
I'm sad that you don't care about police brutality in NYC. Please watch this: http://video.nytimes.com/video/2012/06/12/opinion/100000001601732/the-scars-of-stop-and-frisk.html
Who says I don't. Did you read my comments? I criticized the lack of seriousness in the way the article was researched and presented, I did not say there was no police brutality and did not comment on whether I cared about police brutality or not. The article is not even about police brutality, it's about "Stop and Frisk". You made a leap between being search and being beaten. Where did that leap occur?
You are a minority"? I disagree!
I'm black you idiot.
Reporting was fine- You don't care about the persecution of minorities!
I'm a minority and I get persecuted everyday.