#OWS Stands In Solidarity With 100 Arrested At Occupy Boston
Posted 7 months ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 11:52 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
Occupy Wall Street would like to express our support and solidarity with both the people of Boston and the 100+ arrested at Occupy Boston last night. We commend them for their bravery in standing their ground at great personal cost to assert the right of the people to peaceful assembly in public spaces.
http://occupyboston.com/2011/10/11/boston-police-brutally-assault-occupy-boston/
We condemn the Boston Police Department for their brutality in ordering their officers to descend upon the Occupy Boston tent city in full riot gear to assault, mass arrest, and destroy the possessions of these peaceful women and men. We condemn them for ordering this attack in the middle of the night. These people were not simply protesters holding a rally, it was their home, it was their community and it was violated in the worst possible way by the brutal actions of the BPD. Furthermore:
The Boston Police Department made no distinction between protesters, medics, or legal observers, arresting legal observer Urszula Masny-Latos, who serves as the Executive Director for the National Lawyers Guild, as well as four medics attempting to care for the injured. [emphasis mine]
These actions go beyond unconscionable, they're unthinkable. If this was war, the BPD could be found guilty of war crimes:
Chapter IV, Article 25 of the Geneva Convention states that "Members of the armed forces specially trained for employment, should the need arise, as hospital orderlies, nurses or auxiliary stretcher-bearers, in the search for or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded and sick shall likewise be respected and protected if they are carrying out these duties at the time when they come into contact with the enemy or fall into his hands.
Every day the actions of the BPD, NYPD, etc. continue to remind us that the police no longer fight to "protect and serve" the American people, but rather the wealth and power of the 1%. With each passing day, as the violence of the state continues to escalate, the myth of American "democracy" becomes further shattered.
THIS IS WHAT A POLICE STATE LOOKS LIKE
And we are what democracy looks like. We do not fear your power and we will continue to fight for a better world. We will never stop growing and each day we'll continue to expand, block by block and city by city. We call upon others to join us, to take a stand against these ever encroaching threats to our liberty. We commend the brave actions of our sisters and brothers in Boston and condemn the BPD leadership. We call upon the rank-and-file police officers of this country to disobey such orders and remember that they protect and serve the people. You are one of us, the 99% and we're too big to fail.
The divide and conquer spin zone is in full effect, as The Republicans shun us, while The Democrats try to own the movement.
We need to continue to make it VERY clear. Neither party represents The American People. Both parties are owned and controlled by the elites who have destroyed our economy, and flushed our prosperity down the toilet.
This is a huge opportunity to let the world know where we stand.
We are not Democrats. We are not Republicans. We are Americans.
We need to get rid of the two party system, get rid of private money in politics and only allow a set public fund to be spent for each candidate, get rid of the electoral college and elect our officials based on popular vote (in this day and age of computers that would be easy), we need to not allow candidates to tear each other apart as campaign propaganda, and make them address only the issues that are at hand and hold them to their promises after they gain office or fire them. We need big changes in our political system.
You go man!!
http://www.easymuaythai.com/
Right on!
Agreed
Thank you.
How about 'We are Human Beings'? American workers have far more in common with the workers of Spain, Greece, Egypt, Tunisia who are rebelling against economic oligarchy just like we are beginning to do, then the fatcats who are causing so much suffering in the US and all over the world.
Hear, hear.
YES
cop out. face reality. ballot access laws. organize around candidates you can embrace who have realistic chances of winning. i'm not willing to embrace a third party movement that has no chance of winning in the present environment and could lead to the horrible reality of republican majority rule.
DailyKos has been identifying solid candidates for a while now. long term goal: reform ballot access laws and eliminate seigneurial rights bestowed upon the democrat and republican party.
the next election is in 2012. check the filing deadlines in your state before you walk down the quiche eating surrender monkey we aren't democrats or republicans thing.
I'm sorry ChetArthur, but I respectfully disagree. If you think the Democrats actually care about us, I'm shocked. The Dem/Rep paradigm is a lie.
The situation is simple: The near entirety of the US government is corrupt and run by political Bribe-takers, bought and paid for by people who have amassed the most wealth overall in this country (Top 1% of the US Population).
These politicians, now solely representing their funders and not the voters, turn around and pass legislation that gives the Super Rich here every advantage possible, including free money (Quantitative Easing/Bailouts), lower taxes and zero accountability for their actions.
In order to prevent revolts from the increased burden to the unrepresented in this country, the Super Rich have set up a bogus political party to siphon off and redirect the anger of the masses (The Republicans) and an ineffectual party (The Democrats) to cave to “republican pressure,” while pretending to care about the masses. In addition, they have co-opted and bought out nearly all of the mainstream media, in order to filter out any info that would lay the blame on the true culprit, instead leaving the majority of America divided and focusing their energies on decoy scapegoats and partisan nonsense.
Obama could have ended the temporary Bush tax cuts when he took office, but of course, he didn't. The entire system is broken. We need to get all soft money out of politics, in order to get actual representation.
sqrltyler - i generally agree with your assessment the american political system is dysfunctional. I leave the meta twaddle about 99 percent versus 1 percent to the dreamers. Yes, "outraged" and not so outraged Americans agree the political system is dysfunctional. Now, how can common ground be found to fix it?
I never indicated either political party cared about the voters. its politics, a business like any other- no one "cares" nor should an artificial governmental entity be expected to care for humans. that's something people need to handle themselves through cooperative, freely associating relationships, partnerships. government policies make possiblethe pursuit of happiness. they do not guarantee it.
get a dog if you want a friend.
obama is faced with governing- not easy. the GOP has worked from the first day to destroy his administration. Worse, Obama's base and supporters I utterly failed to follow through after he took the oath. OWS I hope has more people paying attention. there's a lot of actual work needs to be done that doesn't appear on the OWS agenda at present moment.
Yes, wave the placards, but please get to the grunt work needed to effect the change people so clearly want. Others have been doing for quite some time.
I'm with you Chet. Been fighting the good fight in the trenches for years.
I still think you're giving Obama a free pass. There's so much he could've accomplished in his first two years, and we had elected him to do these things. It would have been very easy for him to make the case to the American People that we were broke, and we had to follow through on his campaign promise to end the temporary Bush tax cuts. Instead, he waited to bring this up until he had lost congress, serving to create even more division, and no action.
He failed us on Net Neutrality. He failed us on ending the wars. He failed us on healthcare. He failed us on transparency. He failed us on The Patriot Act. He failed us on The Military Commissions Act. He failed us on labor standards in trade agreements.
Obama's utter failure to follow through on campaign promises he was elected on, sewed the very seeds of this movement. I understand very well that no single person is responsible for all of this, but...
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
In my mind, the only way to win our representative government back, is to eliminate all soft money from politics. It's time to call a bribe a bribe.
When you and I can only donate $2,500, and global corporations can donate millions anonymously through PACs, we have lost our voice.
Indeed. It's all about having a voice. Politicians don't want you to have a voice because it shapes public opinion. Big Business doesn't want you to have a voice because it interrupts their practices of screwing you over. Whether you have all the money in the world or are as poor as dirt your voice matters. There is nothing Obama has tried to do that wouldn't have worked if everyone worked together for the greater good of the public - instead, since many of those things might involve being forced to play fair, there has been no support from the "other side" and, in fact, actual opposition. A dog and pony show to distract everyone from the issues, and the fact that the 99% outnumber the kleptocrats. Stop watching the show and stand up for yourself.
sqrltyler - not giving anyone a free pass- obama was a known failure when I voted for him. i just didnt like the idea of president mccain and certainly dont like the prospects of uncle milt in the white house. not willing to ditch democrats because the entire political system is corrupt. one must make teh system work in their favour.
id be delighted to give to an anonymous people's swift boat fund. i think people should pointedly tell usual democrats and republicans groups why they arent giving and then give the money to an independent fund that runs attack ads wth a punch one can appreciate. why should the koch brothers have all the fun- plenty of material to work with....................
50 state strategy - running 50 candidates or regional candidates and throw election into congress. the power of national organizations has to be defeated. even if you argue to get the money out of politics, the national organizations, can effectively silence valid policy options from being presented to the public.
I'm glad to have you here Chet, and glad to have this conversation. You bring up a variety of valid points. Let's work to make it possible for candidates to actually represent us, and then use our knowledge to get those candidates elected.
The lesser of two evils is not acceptable anymore. Simply kicking the can down the street does not solve our problems, and simple math tells us our time is running out...
Noone forces you to vote for someone. Wealthy people financing political campaigns only allows politicians to advertise their plan, or dupe people into thinking they have their best interests at heart.
You have the story completely flipped. You want someone to blame, blame the decision makers in DC.
While you are at it, chew on this, while your there eating your free pizza, crying because someone pepper sprayed you during s demonstration:
Most people don't even have to pay taxes for the services this fine country provide (like security, social welfare, and one of the finest although outdated infrastructures in the world). It's all thanks to the 1% who have been in the office all this time you spent wasting away your resources on sitting around and complaining.
If you just counted the 1000 that were arrested the other day and asked "what if they worked 4 40 hour weeks over this past month instead of this protesting and eating free pizza?" you realize They could have worked For minimum wage for 160k hours and donated the $1.16mm to a cause of. your choice.
you do realize that there are 30 million Americans unemployed or underemployed? do you think they are all doing it because they are lazy? all 30 million... at the same time... being lazy and not working... ruserious?
this is systemic. you need to wake up and quit spewing the party line from your barkalounger.
Ditto!!
There are several reasons good and bad, but I'm confident 1000 of you could find minimum wage jobs at Starbucks, McDonald's, or any other dining facility near zucotti park then come complain about the 1% on your off hours. It would prove your altruism more than claiming your out there for me and the remaining 99%.... Why not try it and really prove how dedicated you are to the 99? 1.16mm/month could feed a lot of hungry mouths.
And minimum wage will pay all the bills.... rent/house payment, utilities, car payment, car gas, car insurance, food, taxes, etc.??? That is part of the problem.... wages that DON'T BEGIN to pay even the most basic of living expenses.
I guess my proposal was lost on you, I wasnt suggesting that minimum wage was easy to live on... I proposed you all stop wasting your time creating signs and start building a more valuable cause by earning some money and contributing to the 99% that are struggling. At the very least, 1000 of you could make 1.16 mm working out the fry machine in mcdonalds you already have your air matress sorted out in the park for the night and pizzas to eat, why not put your time to good use?
I already have a career of which I support myself 100% with.... thank you. To assume EVERY person protesting and who supports the protest is jobless is completely ignorant and arrogant.
You know that the demonstrators who protested the war in Viet Nam, the marchers and protesters who struggled for civil rights and the women who struggled to gain some equal rights in this country were also treated this way. I salute those who would sleep in the park without the benefit of bathroom facilities, knowing that they might freeze when the weather gets colder, not knowing where their next meal is coming from, who put up with abuse from those who don't know the truth and the police who abuse them. I certainly hope they know that there are others who can't be there that support what they are doing. The first amendment gives them the right to speak up and protest and as a Senior Citizen, I personally was totally disgusted with the apathy in this country in view of this horrendous economic breakdown.
I totally agree!! The women who fought and fought for the right to vote were IMPRISONED.
Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed. Herman Melville
So true.
the problem is sustainability - if the current rate of wealth redistribution continues, there won't be any middle class to buy all the products. The wealthy will try to wall themselves off, and then it really will get nasty. It is obvious to even the casual observer that when the rich are in power, all communal wealth will be privatized and end up making the rich even richer. How can the powerless get heard, when the rich hold the media and politicians captive. We have let this happen by drinking the koolaid the power elite have crafted for us, and only we can demand our voice back. We must remove all private money from campaigns, and only then will we have a chance of finding candidates who can represent us. This is obvious to everyone, especially to the current power elite. Forget the 'free speech' argument - that argument implies that the richer you are, the more voice and speech you should have. That is what we have now. It's not working, except for the 1%.
Same stupid robotic replies all over these boards - grow up and get a job. Not trying to redistribute wealth but make policies on Wallstreet more accountable and question the ways they affect our government and democracy. If jobs are so easy to find, why don't you clue them in on the jobs they can have? I see a lot of finger pointing in the dark and not a lot of solutions...
I don't remember the 1% paying for my social security. What I remember in my 38 years of working is my employer taking money out of my paycheck with the promise of an insurance of social security when I got old or sick. I worked for my social security and the 1% would take that away too if given the opportunity.
Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Boston, all of you participating in this growing Occupy Movement struggling for justice and equality, you
re the real heroes of the world! Dont you ever give up this fight!Solidarity and Greetings from Norway Yours S. http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/
How are the protestors hurting anyone? It is a peaceful protest. Help take down the Fake Empire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVvvCJ28G18
Can someone tell me why America has a "class" system? Weren't the first Europeans who arrived on this soil running from that kind of tyranny in Britain?
There's always been a class system, that's just reality. Even under communism there was huge social division in Russia and China.
you're all crazy radicals, go get a job and make something of yourself
I disagree with your argument for three reasons.
1) I don't really think that that is true. There is no level playing field. education costs money. People in the upper levels of society connect with the others in the upper levels thus ensuring that they remain in power.
2) We can trade statistics and anecdotal evidence about whether someone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps forever. However, what is more important is what your argument justifies. The view that someone isn't rich because they are "imperfectly evolved" lacking in cognitive ability or inherently "lazy" is EXTREMELY dehumanizing. It is this very logic that has justified every genocide in history. Indigenous populations were justifiably exterminated because they were "cognitively incapable" of advancing the "wonders of western society". The fact that the looked and acted differently than rich white men meant they could justifiably be killed. In fact, your argument is justifying a contemporary, ongoing genocide against the poor. The rich ensure that there is no structural way that someone in poverty can support themselves. Then they blame it on the person in poverty in order to continue taking away the means by which that person lives. Millions of people die from poverty because those in power systematically dehumanize them and take away their means of survival so that they can buy another private jet.
3) Even if it is possible for those in poverty to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and even if this argument didn't justify an ongoing genocide on the poor, there are still some major problems of the nature of capitalist "success" itself. The logic of capitalist expansion destroys the environment,creates numerous resource wars, and constitutes an ongoing war on the third world. There is no question that an economic model that relies on the absorption of surplus value via consumption will inevitably destroy the environment and possibly even conditions for life on earth. The acceleration of greenhouse gas emissions via industrial production and consumer automobiles and the acceleration of global warming will at the very least cause a huge amount of the world's population to be submerged by the melting ice caps. Also, it is not coincidental that every war that we are currently engaged in is in a very resource rich region. Libya has some of the best crude oil in the world that is absolutely essential for the European capitalist nations. Iraq had substantial oil reserves while Afghanistan has one of the largest concentration of rare earth metals in the world (an essential ingredient in electronics). Lastly, the "success" of western capitalism inherently relegates the third world to the position of "natural recourse" banks for western companies. The population of the third world is an expendable after thought ground under the wheel of "successful" entrepreneurial resource extraction.
While there are numerous other problems with the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument (ranging from racism to sexism to heteronormativity), these are the three arguments that I believe are the most relevant in the context of the Occupy Wall Street movement and there critique of current capitalism.
Wow, point #2 -- that thought hadn't crossed my mind yet, but holy crap -- spot on in my opinion.
WOW! Thank you for this wonderful informative viewpoint.
Eloquently stated. Thank you.
Whats radical about wanting more equality and justice? Whats radical about wanting people to be able to particiapte and to have a say in the matters that affect them? Whats radical about wanting more democracy?
Lots of people have LOST their jobs because of the gangsters at Wall Street and the finacial elite.
don't respond to ignorant, uncreative, reactionaries...they are devoid of value.
I agree...they are not worth the time or trouble...we have much bigger issues at hand and we will prevail...I support you, Occupy Boston, and all my other fellow occupiers...I am proud to be a part of such a wonderful and necessary movement
Yeah fuck the rich, lets make them share their money so we can buy shit and have nicer houses. Also http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
this movement is not about wanting, or needing what the super wealthy "have" but what they take away and do not give in return. Healthy homes, healthy environments, good jobs and good schools, access to good healthcare, retirement care...the obsession with money is not an invention of the poor, it is a gross addiction of those who need to hoard wealth...and in so doing they make it worthless.
I agree with you! The love of money is the root of all evil! I just want to lay my head down at night and know that an honest day of work is enough to support my family. Right now it's not, and I can't even sleep because of the worry!
I am sorry for your hurt and worry, but please know that you have the strength of so many others who share your burden...its time we shrug off the burden that should not be ours to bear.
sarcasm ftw
Don't feed the trolls! (pass it on)
You are correct! Do not respond to the perverts who should not be given a podium
also their likely response after getting you riled up is "well, whatever. i really don't care that much." like really, thanks for the waste of time.
Kudos to THAT!
life ain't fair, bro
Only people make it that way.
exactly, as long as there are people, someone will always be better than someone else in some way
So let`s take all the wealth that the super rich took thru bailouts and exploitation from them and say: "hey, what can I say, Life aint fair, bro".......
if you can do that, more power to you. unfortunately for you, they came out on top. can't always win...
Throughout history sitting on the side lines has not helped bring a movement to success. Gandhi was not sitting idle. he had to fight the British to come on top!
"unfortunately for you, they came out on top" And now poeple all over the world are organizing AGAINST this!
just don't do anything you'll regret later
I
m sure no one will regret taking the power from the powerful non-elected finacial elite, and instead making the society more democratic, equal and just. Its called creating a better society.you never know what will happen....
It's radical to demand more equality and justice in a society that is already equal and just. What they are really demanding is wealth to be taken from the people who earned it to be given to the people who didn't. That's the very definition of unequal and unjust.
Try again.
Our society is equal and just?????? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's BY FAR one of the funniest things I've EVER heard!!!!!
Wow... you are so delusional.
Speak for yourself. Most view our freedom and liberty as the epitome of equality and justice. You are just ungrateful.
No, you are the ungrateful one. I'm grateful for the things we have that work for EVERYONE. I guess you don't see how certain segments of our population have been and are oppressed, don't have equal rights, etc. I have some gay friends. You can ask them if everything is just and equal here.
back up this assertion. it contradicts what the movement is saying.
If I was mistaken in my assessment that the 99% demand more of the 1%, I'll stand corrected. Of course, that's your very argument. It's just socialism under a new populist banner, but it stinks just the same.
Back up this assertion.
I already did. Your incessant demands for proof of the obvious isn't fooling anyone. Join the debate already.
Check closely on this statement troops - do you see how the demands for proof are dismissed and instead an attempt to get one involved in circular arguments is proposed? Where there is no ability on both sides to discuss resonably, no purpose is served in such arguments...
If I could understand what it is you demand proof of, I may be able to provide it. Until then, you have no valid argument against the proven failed socialist policies this movement promotes. Put up or shut up.
So you've got nothing? Ok got it. Thanks.
I've got what I already told you. You just don't like it. Your non-argument is really pathetic. What is your position again? Please back up your assertion demanding I back up my assertion.
This is entertaining. Three of you have very similar patterns of argument. Present nothing, say nothing. Try to incite anger.
Well that was fun. Time to move on to something real.
The 1% pay ~40% of the income tax in this country..: 1% of the population taking on 40% of the load. Do you think that is fair, or do you think they should pay more?
So, it was you who had nothing after all. That's what I thought.
Ah - the famous "I know you are but what am I?" response - classic.
Not even close. I simply asked the same of what was asked of me. Now, stop playing games and start debating the ideas you claim you are here to debate.
Well actually, the funny thing is, you're right. This group isn't radical. In fact, many OWS members are in favor of exactly what got us here in the first place.
Thats a controversial statement. Present evidence.
OWS wants more democracy, equality, justice and solidarity. Thats not whats causing the problems we see today!
Certainly, but how exactly do you propose we arrive at such virtues? The solutions proposed by many OWS members tend to bring us back right where we started, if not worse.
how so?
Well quite a few propose bigger government with greater spending and various socialist policies as well. Well a bigger government is what got us here in the first place.... Certainly not all of OWS advocates this, but quite a few do...
"Well a bigger government is what got us here in the first place" That`s false. It was the deregulation and the romantic belief in free markeds. Greenspan admitted everything in 08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzsiXsbPQY4
I threw up on myself when you said that..... You're not fighting free markets.. you're fighting CRONY CAPITALISM.
Free markets = crony capitalism. People are not evolved enough to handle free markets. Deregulation is what leads to crony capitalism.... deregulation = free markets. Same thing.
Actually youre wrong on this one. We dont have free markeds. We have a powerful superwealthy finacial elite which makes sure that the state regulates in ways that serves their interests. Chomsky back in 2002: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC1sHqS9RoI
Free markets have nothing to do with the government. Crony capitalism has everything to do with the government.
"Goldman Sachs lost money on just one trading day in the first quarter, according to a securities filing on Tuesday. 5/10/11"
This is no "free market" my friend - this wouldn't be possible
No, I`m fighting BOTH!
Well free markets have absolutely nothing to do with this. This group is only fighting crony capitalism.
Yes we are fighting crony capitalism AND deregulation. Deregulation is NOT a contribution to the solution. It enable companies from ceasing to rig the system to their benefit. Companies should be regulated by the people (ie the gov) so that they serve our best needs as a society. IE - protecting the environment. If you start throwing around some hate speech about how this is socialism - beware you discredit yourself and being a puppet of Fox News and the MSM who lacks knowledge about what he says but rather freaks out every time he hears the word "socialism". That kind of irrational emotional response won't get us anywhere.
I should say that the market does it much better, actually.
if you like democracy, you should be in favor of more democracy - democracy in the workplace and in the communities, not private tyranny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk
FYI, that's a slippery slope fallacy. "If you like ice cream, surely you'd like to eat it until you puke then eat more afterwards."
Democracy isn't something that works or is ideal everywhere. It's also hard to believe that democracy is a part of the OWS movement given its hostility to disagreement.
Enough of the Fox News bullshit please...it's tiring. You people use it fallaciously all the time. It's annoying as hell. I don't even watch Fox News. Deregulation doesn't enable companies to rig the system to their benefit. the GOVERNMENT enables companies to rig the system to their benefit. If a company does something stupid and cheats its customers, it will go out of business! Why do we need governments to prevent that when the market does it just fine?
The idea that a company will go out of business when they do something stupid and cheats its customers is a pipe dream. No one wants to lose their job or business. They will do everything possible to obscure the stupid thing they did from their consumers. Without regulation, we make this more possible because the consumer can't be on top of everything every company does.
So I completely disagree with you here.
The government is corruptible. But considering that they have no inherent desire to be corruptible (politicians make so little money on the whole) there is a way to make them accountable to the people, as the founders of our country intended.
Now dont' get me wrong, I'm not for a big gov. But I do think they need to be a critical voice in helping oversee large scale operations -- they should stand for what the people want to see done as a collective.
I like to search this list for the most inept statements I can find: You, taysic, are today's winner! I think you should become a CEO and "obscure stupid things" from your customers! Brilliant. Make a stupid product that they don't want to buy, then "obscure" it from them. Just go out back to your money tree and pluck some more dollars. Why didn't we all think of that?
Hey FreeMarkets, you win for most hateful - with no substance. Congratulations!
The whole idea of a representative government is indefensible.
I agree. We should just form mobs and have firing squads to get rid of those who disagree with us. Why have a social contract like a Constitution when you can just have misery and death - eh?
Is this the kind of liberty that libertarians believe in? Shutting up everyone else that doesn't agree? Should more like fascism to me.
Why do you suppose then for 40 years after the Great Depression that there was NOT ONE financial crisis in the U.S., but the minute Glass-Steagall was repealed, a financial meltdown HAPPENED??? Repealing Glass-Steagall is deregulation... and THAT lead to crony capitalism via FREER markets.
I love how people think that the Glass-Steagall act has to do with anything. Tell me, what part of the Glass-Steagal act was repealed? Tell me exactly how that part influenced anything? :)
Someone said somewhere that repealing that law caused the financial crisis. One simple law has caused tens of trillions of losses.
The Koch brothers!!!!1
And I have yet to see evidence of a market doing this fine. It's not happening by today's standards. The people who succeed today, do so because they know how to control the market.
They don't succeed today because they know how to control the market. They succeed because of garnering consumer demand OR they succeed because they know how to CONTROL THE GOVERNMENT.
We weed out the stupid things companies do ALL THE TIME without government regulation, and they LOSE business. What you're saying is just plain false.
We don't need to oversee large scale operations. We need to restrict the government from granting power to large scale operations.
I disagree completely. I appreciate your reading my response though. As far as I'm concerned, the nature of capitalism is driven by greed, to which there is no end. There must be a regulator that represents the people. Industries do not have the greater needs of the people in mind and the people cannot stay informed enough always to make the right choices. No government is not the solution. Correct government is the solution. Where I do think we agree is that politics and corporations should be separate. If you support OWS, that's cool. Glad to see we can unite on at least one cause.
Indeed, I'm glad we at least agree on one thing, which I suppose is a tad more relevant/important than a grand debate over government vs. no government.
Indeed!
"Well free markets have absolutely nothing to do with this" the markeds were let more free. Greenspan deregulated morer and more.
"This group is only fighting crony capitalism." Well, sure. Why would anyone fight sthing that doesnt exist..?
To clarify: The power of the 1% is granted by their partnership with the government --> Crony capitalism. What in the hell does deregulation have to do with that?
The Regulation prior to Ronald Regan that helped the U.S. get out of the 1920's depression actually caused big business to buy their way into the media and government so they could then deregulate. Becareful what you measure because what you measure you get. Like measuring the nations prosperity by way of corporate profits.
Wait, what? If regulation was so profitable that they could "buy their way" into deregulation, why the hell deregulate?
Also, it's "Reagan," not "Regan."
Hardings lack of regulation prior to the 1920s was exactly what stopped a great depression in the 1920s. The 1930s depression was vastly prolonged BECAUSE of regulation. So you're saying that regulation caused all of this...? By allowing companies to buy into the government? We need to regulate the government itself from not taking bribes and such....
Exactly
Right, except the reality is the opposite of what you just said. You're just kind of making stuff up and saying it as fact. The 20's crash happened because banks were allowed to speculate with people's savings. After the crash, they put an end to that, only to lift that regulation in the 90s, which had obvious results. And the America was well on its way to recovery with the New Deal until FDR listened to his advisors who said he needed to enact certain "austerity measures" which slowed the economy back down until war production brought us out of it. Everything I just said is Google-able and commonly accepted economic history.
"The 20's crash happened because banks were allowed to speculate with people's savings." That sure sounds familiar!!
There is no evidence whatsoever to say that speculation had anything to do with any depression ever. It's a baseless piece of nothing. The New Deal VASTLY prolonged the Great Depression. None of this is commonly accepted. What you learn in school about the Great Depression is historians, not economists, analyzing the Great Depression.
Boredperson, you truly are a bore. Are you really so simple minded as to think economists are all in agreement. I suggest you learn a little about the different schools of economics. Milton Friedman doesn't equal John Maynard Keynes. Sorry but yes, speculation on huge margins did cause banks to become insolvent. Maybe if you spent a little more time researching you wouldn't be so bored.
I never said they were all in agreement.... And there is nothing inherently bad about speculation...in fact it's good. Speculators assume risk, increase liquidity and allow the market to reach equilibrium price more quickly. I can't imagine that it caused the Great Depression. Fractional-reserve banking caused the Great Depression. Regulation caused the great depression.
I don't know where you got your version of history. The history I'm aware of says Herbert Hoover was a proponent of laissez faire economics. He resisted any attempt to interfere with that magical "invisible hand" of the market as things continued to go down the toilet, sort of like the Rs want to do now. But maybe you and Michelle "Hoot-Smalley" know better.
He probably got his version of history from the same place Palin did.
So it seems.
And Michelle is certainly right (of course, don't take that as my support for her cause). The Smoot-Hawley Tariff launched America even deeper into the Great Depression.
I'll quote directly from Wikipedia: "Hoover tried to combat the ensuing Great Depression with volunteer efforts, public works projects such as the Hoover Dam, tariffs such as the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, and raising the top tax bracket from 25% to 63% " None of that sounds like laissez-faire economics. "Hoover feared that too much intervention or coercion by the government would destroy individuality and self-reliance, which he considered to be important American values." This was the extent of his view on laissez-faire economics. Once again, doesn't sound like he was too much in favor of it.
Your quotes are very selective' I would contend Smoot-Hawley did not have a negative effect. It is curious how the free market crowd likes to say the New Deal didn't end the Depression,(as in deficit spending) the war did. The trouble with that one of course is that the war effort was much greater deficit spending. Hoovers' efforts were indeed too little too late. Keynesian techniques do work. Let me add though they will not work well now (and haven't) due to the fact that have outsourced so much we only tend to stimulate the economies we buy stuff from.
They're hardly selective; I read for five seconds and there they were. Here's what libertarians think about prosperity from war: “War prosperity is like the prosperity that an earthquake or a plague brings.” - Ludwig von Mises. In fact, liberals are the individuals who claim that WWII ended the Great Depression (Krugman being a lovely example). Hoover set the stage for the Great Depression...we might say too much all the time. Just wiki the Smoot-Hawley Tariff....nobody thinks its a good thing...
http://economyincrisis.org/content/%E2%80%9Cfree-trade-under-fhttp://economyincrisis.org/content/avoid-trade-war-we%E2%80%99re-ahttp://economyincrisis.org/content/why-our-present-recession-will-be-worse-1930slready-oneire%E2%80%9D-irresponsibly-written-%E2%80%93-book-reviewhttp://economyincrisis.org/content/against-jobs-united-states-0 Here are e few people who disagree.
I'm not at all sure what this comment means. Greenspan deregulated, but do you know what and where he deregulated??? This is an issue of the government forming relationships with businesses; it has NOTHING to do with deregulation.
so Greenspan
s wrong then? <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzsiXsbPQY4> You know better than him what he did and didnt do...?Greenspan is an idiot. He's always been pro abundant regulation. So of course he would blame deregulation. However, what enables banks and such to cheat and whatnot is the power that the government gives to them. It has nothing to do with the lack of regulation.
Regardless of whether your statements about the government enabling banks and such to cheat are true or not, where is the accountability from the banks and such? If someone told you to go and kill someone and then said you wouldn't be put in prison for it, allowing you to get away with it (enabling you to do it), would you do it?
That is such a weak and bullshit argument.... "because someone told me to do it."
The argument isn't "because someone told me to do it." It's: "the government enabled me to do it." The government externalizes accountability. I might kill if I feel that my conscious could bear it and that I receive a sufficient profit, why not? However, the killing analogy is a tad off...
Oh, so its a cospiracy...?
I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy. I would say that the government colludes with banks; the banks have then formed connections with the government; if the government willingly concedes to the demands of the banks in return for donations, then the bank now has power far greater than it could have without the government. Thus, it is able to do things that are questionable.
No one in their right mind would disagree that there are close connection beween government and big business http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HvGy2gY0eM but what youre saying seems to be that Greenspan, which has been an extrem advocate of free markeds all his adult life, in 08 suddenly conspired with the poeple in government to lie under oath and blame free markeds instead of regulations when he explained what happened http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzsiXsbPQY4 This is not very plausible. Come on, man...
Greenspan is a proponent of the Fed. The Fed is a gigantic hindrance to a free market. I don't know what Greenspan is talking about in the clip. It's a tad out of context anyway. And even if banks did do something bad without aid from the government, well then guess what? Well move to the next bank that won't do something bad.
"Whats radical about wanting more equality and justice? Whats radical about wanting people to be able particiapte to have a say in the matters that affect them? Whats radical about wanting more democracy?"
nothing whatsoever.
so why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
wall st. can't fart without a govt regulator's OK.
so why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
wall st. may bribe elected officials, but elected officials are the ones who swore the oath.
so why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
accepting bribes when you represent the people is much, much worse than offering bribes when you do not represent the people.
so why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
the megawealthy have undue influence, but it takes an elected official or other govt bureaucrat to accept that influence and do the wrong thing.
so why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
see what I'm getting at? seems you aren't in WASHINGTON DC because the president and the senate are left wing/democrat/liberal. or is that just a coincidence?
In the United States it is the finacial elite that have the overwhelming power in society. The important politicians arnt just bribed, theyre BOUGHT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2Q6sdh6Bg
That is one of the things the Occupy movement want to change.
"Goldman Sachs lost money on just one trading day in the first quarter, according to a securities filing on Tuesday. 5/10/11"
think we still have "free markets" ??
I have never claimed that. No, we don`t have free markeds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC1sHqS9RoI
bribed, bought...are you really playing semantic games in order to avoid the point?
"In the United States it is the finacial elite that have the overwhelming power in society"
sorry, they only have the power the elected officials give them.
why the F aren't you in WASHINGTON DC?
We are in DC!!
yeah, about 50-100 of you. big f'n deal.
why isn't the ows-wall st crowd in DC?
washington dc has been done
wall street seems to be getting a greater reaction
"washington dc has been done"
and it failed. 50-100 people. total joke.
Yes, they need you to cheer them on.
I love your passion, crypto666!
Exposing the Wall Street heart and soul that is defined by greed before humanity is vital. the core of the constitution, the structure of the U.S. government (executive, legislative, judicial) are sound. The values of the government have strayed by the lust for priveledge (greed). Expose the damage, treat the cause, heal the wound. People before profits.
The elite have the power they have bought, and that 98 %. We the people hold 99, time to flex our muscle.
"The elite have the power they have bought"
and that power they bought came in the form of PEOPLE who allowed themselves to be bought. ok, maybe not "people" so much, considering they are politicians from both parties and it's a stretch to refer to them as people. still, those willing to sell themselves (and the country) out are the real perps.
the 99% should be flexing their muscle where it might work: the white house and capitol hill. wall st doesn't care what anyone thinks.
Ummmm, they are.
I can understand the tempation to think that the politicians should have stood up to the greedy bastards, so therefore we should vote them all out. I see that kind of thinking everywhere. It's time to look a little further upstream - and ask ourselves WHY the politicans don't stand up for us (when it counts). Ask yourself who has the most power in the relationship between money and political power in our current political system? Our supreme court of the land just nudged it into the forefront in case you're not sure. These are the kind of politicans and court that have been bought for us by the inane idea that we should not limit campaign costs, nor campaign seasons. Who do you think is advantaged by that idea - certainly the very wealthy who can ask for political favors, and a few 'winner take all' politicans (these are the 1 %). But not the quality of our elections or candidates. It gives us the least of the worst (by design of guess who). so we have to go where the money is to show the greedy bastards that we are ready to expose them, and by association hopefully shame the politicians into working together to eliminate their influence (yeah right, that'll happen - they are so sensitve to shame). Also - because the 1% are too big to fail now, they can also use the somewhat real threat of economic terror to blackmail our reps into submission. So that's why we are focused on the money and ridiculously huge corporations. They are the threat that must be addressed now. How can democracy and small businesses thrive when we refuse to make reasonable laws and regulations against monopoly, wealth transfer and political influence? We have to fight with the power we have left. Our sheer numbers, our ability to work together, and our ability to disrupt the status quo.
your earnest and thoughtful justification of blaming the crowd not at fault is not very convincing.
the people who make the rules and took the bribes are the ones at fault. but it seems they will not be targeted because the president and the senate are controlled by democrats.
this is the problem with the left when it tries to do what the right does. perfect example is msnbc. msnbc set out to the the FOX of the left. but instead of imitating FOX, it imitated the left wing caricature of FOX (which most lefties believe is reality--as if the reality of FOX isn't slanted enough!). so this protest, an attempt at the left wing version of the tea party, is doomed to fail and is quickly becoming a joke because it targets the wrong people and does so for rank partisan political reasons. too bad. seeing this many people fired up and ready to force change is a good thing. as always, the execution (and lame partisanship) ruins a good idea.
Your tea party never did amount to anything, you just had the big money behind you, that is as much as you amounted to, dyed paper. This movement is made up of real everyday citizens who have had enough, most aren't extremists of either party unlike the tea party, some lean a little to the left, some to the right but that is what makes up the silent majority and thats who's pissed off. They/we outnumber you a thousand fold. Go back to polishing the koch bros shoes.
"Your tea party..."
right off the bat, you're a kook. "my" tea party? you mean the one I don't own and am not a part of? is that the one you mean, kook?
setting that aside, you immediately dig deeper into a strong disconnect with reality with "never did amount to anything."
regardless of whether you like the tea party or not, only a kook would ignore the profound impact they had on the last election.
you're one of those people who pretend reality is what you wish it was, aren't you? (that's rhetorical, kook)
It is NOT an attempt at the left wing version of the Tea Party - this is a misguided observation. The Tea Party was funded by the Kochs Brothers as a political gap-filler to strengthen the position of the Right in elections. OWS is being funded entirely differently with no paid-for news coverage. An artificial movement based on false premises will fail, a movement based on need fills a natural vaccuum. This is not mere whining - these people are exposing a truth that those benefitting from the rot don't want to admit - that might mean they're guilty too.
it is an attempt at a left wing version of the tea party, despite your paranoid fantasies about the koch bros.
"OWS is being funded entirely differently with no paid-for news coverage"
so the tea party paid the news media to cover and mock it? you really believe that?
wow.
omg! can't you think for yourself without this faux new bs interrupting your thought process. C'mon Now! This MOVEMENT is not about left,right or center. Its about the GREEDY WALLSTREET banks/corporations that brought out the hill and are SINKING this country into DISPAIR.
We the 99% have got to put a STOP to this before we all DROWN...You included!!
the greedy wall st banks and corps are regulated by the federal govt. they can't fart without the federal govt's ok. so stop screaming, get ahold of your emotions, and explain why you aren't protesting the people who allow themselves to be bought and who make the rules that favor the megawealthy.
if you can't even see how this is a perfectly reasonable question, I dont know what to tell you.
and I have said all along that it "seems" (not is) that the reason is too many in the protest crowd do not want to protest the president or the senate.
Ahhh but I do protest the federal government and have been since sept 2008. I called and wrote my congressman.The bought out politcians ignored me. I now take to the streets. But I don't need faux noise thinking for me. You on the other hand quote faux noise far to often. Man-up and think for yourself. Good luck with that.
you're just another lefty cliche-bot
good luck with that.
nobody can ever get anything done America has split itself as nicely down the middle as they did during the civil war. Republicans are tanking your economy so they can blame it on Obama! The wealthiest one percent want their good ole boys in the GOP to get this gravy train back on track. The wealthy could be making strides to help by hiring, increasing wages but layoffs and records lows in wages mire America in an ever deepening fiscal crisis
I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who thinks the GOP gets too much money.
Here is a breakdown of the top 10 political donors out there ( courtesy of http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/index.php ) and how they donated in 2010.
10: a union. > 90% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000083&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
9: a union. > 90% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000074&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
8: a union. > 90% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000069&cycle=2010
7: trial lawyers org. > 90% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000065&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
6: a union. > 90% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000064&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
5: a union. 100% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000077&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
4: realtors. > 50% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000062&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
3: AT&T. 55% went to Republicans: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000076&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
2: a union org. > 95% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000000061&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
1: A Democrat PAC. > 99% went to Democrats: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/toprecips.php?id=D000021806&type=P&sort=A&cycle=2010
Why can so many people from other countries see it, but so many Americans can't????
we are everywhere! we are the majority who have been ripped off, future and lives destroyed while the fascist elite set up FAKE terrorist attack and FAKE alerts while the freemason thugs police brutally attack the people. and do not be deceived these ignorant thugs will attack again in the night like all the evil forces of this devil fascist tyranny that controls us. we face a chasm of catharsis. 911 INSIDE JOB. jesus is the antichrist. the end of cannabis prohibition is the RAPTURE.
Don't give up the resolve just because some goons here still dont get what America really needs. Keep the focus.
Please dont go fall for this conspiracy-theory about fake terrorattacks. That only hurts your case for wanting justice and equality. And be reasonable, its not fascism, its about a a very rich elite gaining more and more control over society and politicians. If you organize you can end this madness.
watch architects and engineers for 911 TRUTH. we can all clearly see three controlled demolitions. we must stop this christian muslim war BS. all the youth of "christian" and "muslim" countries are united with us in opposition to the ENEMY the fascist elite who financed hitler to start WW2 and a a FAKE terrorist attack to start the war on terror..as their PSYCHOPATHIC BREAKDOWN continues they will stage other stunts to discredit us and cover their violent attacks upon us. there may be deaths. be stout hearted and endure through to the end. the end of their world command and control in 2012
PLEASE watch these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Gc_Wyotzw&feature=related where EXPERTS debunk the myths.
If your`re still not convinced please keep it to yourself, cause youre hurting your main cause by focusing on this.
my main cause is the end of cannabis prohibition and to expose the police brutality to push them into a PSYCHOPATHIC BREAKDOWN so we can introduce democracy and give power to the 99%
Sounds good. Focus on that then:)
finally, a 9/11 truthtard shows up!
PERFECT!
this will give the protest the credibility is deserves!
keep posting, sufi!
so you are supporting the spending on the military industrial war machine and dividing mankind into christian v muslim war on terror to make more money and power for the 1%!!! the truth is the youth in both christian and muslim countries are rising up against their tyrannies. you are supporting the lies the fascist elite use to suppress us. we will see them pull more stunts to discredit us to use as a cover for greater repression and police brutality. STOP BRUTALISING US WITH YOUR BS
"so you are supporting the spending on the military industrial war machine and dividing mankind into christian v muslim war on terror to make more money and power for the 1%!!!"
no, not at all. normally, I would ask how anyone could come up with such a silly and ridiculous conclusion, but since you're a truther, I already know.
"the truth is the youth in both christian and muslim countries are rising up against their tyrannies."
perhaps. I never said otherwise.
"you are supporting the lies the fascist elite use to suppress us."
no, I just know that truthers are helpless robotic morons who do not think critically. they read shit on a truther website, never look it up from a neutral source, repeat the truther lies, and then never-EVER-let a single truther talking point go.
and when called on being a moronic truther, they swerve to 5 other unrelated topics and assume I believe in them all.
just like you did. I've seen it happen 1000 times (literally). you're nothing new or special or unexpected.
"we will see them pull more stunts to discredit us to use as a cover for greater repression and police brutality."
stunts are not needed to discredit the truth movement. the words and actions of truthers do just fine.
"sorry, they only have the power the elected officials give them." Its the other way around. The politicians only have the power the the finacial elites give them. Did you not listen to the link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HvGy2gY0eM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2Q6sdh6Bg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC1sHqS9RoI
struggle, the new 112th congress is made up of more millionare/billionaires then any other congress in history. They are the elites. They are in a marriage bed with wallstreet. Hence, the MOVEMENT must be at wallstreet and The Capitol everyday.
The system has been Hijacked. The system no longer represents or SUSTAINS the 99%.
Yep.... how many former CEOs are in office now or who are going to run for office or who ran for office in the last presidential election? A good portion of the right wing is guilty of this.
Let`s end this madness. Keep on fighting, keep on growing. Get off the couch get out in the streets. Yours S struggleforfreedom http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/
You are the problem with this movement, Struggleforfreedom80. You blame the 1%, when you should be blaming the institution that granted such power to the 1%.
Again, WHERE IS the accountability OF THE 1%?????
I agree that they should be held accountable. However, everyone seems to ignore that latter half of the relationship: the government.
No.... I keep saying BOTH are guilty.... and if you've even attempted to read what the OWS and the other national protests are about, you WOULD'VE gotten that people are pissed at BOTH corporations AND government.
You keep trying to make excuses for the financial part who is guilty.
I'm not. I just said that both should be held accountable. The government is the root problem. And logically, in order to get rid of the problem, the root is where one would strike. Getting rid of the problem is different than making somebody accountable for the problem.
You are trying to claim that the chicken can exist without the egg and vice versa. The two are just halves of the particular problem we face.
Furthermore it is absurd to claim that you can solve this problem with gov't - especially when that gov't has already been corrupted by wealth.
I'm not necessarily saying that attacking the government is the direct solution (although I ultimately think that it needs to be abolished). However, there is a misplacement of blame here, regardless of the solution. We need to blame the government regardless of how we solve the problem.
Blame is irrelevant. Solving the problem however is relevant to lives of all Americans.
Blame is very relevant. If blame is misguided and such misguided blame shapes policy....well what good would that do?
If this was a movement of a small minority with a great deal of power, I'd be concerned. But this is a movement of the vast majority, and those without power. So your worry is baseless.
You`re wrong. Listen to the links.
It's called logic. I'm not going to listen to the links. Crony capitalism exists because the government exists. Crony capitalism would not exist if the government did not exist. Hmmmm, what is the common variable among all of this? And being "bought out" is the same thing as CHOOSING to take donations. Corporations don't have a magical wand that convinces government officials to take bribes in return for favors. The government CHOOSES to take bribes and CHOOSES to return favors.
So to continue with your logic,Bad people exist because people exist. Therefore we must eliminate people.
Certainly not. We must eliminate the government.
Or maybe we should fix it. I know,a radical idea. There are a few who are not bought.
By giving it psychotherapy? The only way to fix the government is to reduce its power. If you can find incorruptible humans, you deserve the Nobel Prize.
Having a hard time thinking you really can believe your own words. If you simply abolish gov. you're left with a power vacuum. It will be filled. Your ideas are those of a child.
Step 1, remove the government. Step 2, people stock up on guns, ammo, food.
Now here's where it gets fun:
Step 3, people with money hire less well-off people to defend them and their interests from other less well-off people and ultimately decide the fate of those below them. They essentially become the government in mini feudal spheres (RE: Land of the Dead. Not an amazing movie, but appropriate.).
OR:
Step 3, looting, rioting, raiding, killing, etc etc etc.
Or you could just move to Somalia and let us know how it is. Write us a postcard.
This is rather baseless logic of yours. I can't say that I even follow.... Somalia is not anarcho-capitalist.
There is no government in Somalia, so it should be an improvement, no?
What does Somalia have to do with anarcho-capitalism? There is no coercion in an anarcho-capitalist society. You're telling me that if America was at war at a time where it had a government and all of a sudden the government was gone, do you think America would still be at war?
Somalia has no government. It is in effect an anarchy. There is no government to impede the natural buying and selling of goods and services. You are advocating for anarchy and against government, thus living in Somalia SHOULD, by your standard, be an improvement. Why is it not then?
There is no buying and selling of goods and services in Somalia. It's crime vs crime. They use coercion to get what they want. That's not buying and selling.
Okay, so what gets rid of that type of coercion in your system?
Magic faeries?
The system doesn't begin with coercion so yes magic fairies.
Okay, so some guy who likes your stuff hits you over the head and takes it all.
The magic faeries stop this behavior?
OOOH, the government pays the people to pretend to steal things on their own volition. I get it now.
No government= no crime. ever. No greed, no theft (both thugs and institutionalized).
It's all so clear now, thanks!
Somebody would find it profitable to protect whomever in the society. You have to ask though, why is Somalia the way it is in the first place? I never said that no government meant no crime. Free markets would definitely have private courts and private police and private defense agencies.
Okay, so I have to pay Antonio on the corner for "protection" so that his cousin doesn't come break my legs.
Lovely!
Your strategy has just made money and government into the same entity. So now we can all be slaves. Nice.
Once again, why do you think Somalia is the way it is?
I'm assuming you're going to claim some special circumstance that makes Somalia unrepresentative of what would happen elsewhere in the world without a government?
Government collapsed, civil war. Pew pew pew. Poor, hungry, undereducated. Pew pew pew.
Actually forget my response: Read this http://mises.org/daily/5418
The one BBC article that references isn't that rosy... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12278628
Of particular note is the fact that the only reason any of the progress was possible was because of money sent into the country by persons living in other countries. So sure progress was made, but 67+% of the economy is reliant on monies earned in countries with a government.
Glad they're doing better... but yeah, that's anarchy with some mighty large training wheels and it's not doing too super, either.
Well, since the government isn't involved in paying remittences, people are doing this on their own. The article even encourages donation. You may call it training wheels, but implementing "an institution of organized violence and theft" probably won't help out the matter. The government can't just artificially inject money into the economy. It would probably need donations as well. This way, however, the donations are going to the people and are being allocated efficiently.
Okay, so in this case, anarchy can sort of work when it's supported by other, non anarchistic governments and individuals (not to mention piracy).
But hey, if you feel that government in general is organized violence and theft, Somalia is apparently an up and coming viable alternative.
///i don't believe at this point OWS is advocating anarchy or the end of government. But since we both seem to want to change the relationship between business and government, we may be better served tabling this (largely academic) debate and focusing on that for now.
Well, to be honest, and although I obviously don't have data to support this, the donations are merely speeding up economic growth (to a decently significant degree of course). Economic growth would still occur though, hence the ~30% for which donations don't account.
Well, if some Somalian crime faction organizes itself well enough and obtains enough power, you have a government I suppose.
I suppose you're right, although I guess I just rebutted. You can ignore it if you like; I'm just too proud to erase it. :P
And why were they poor, hungry, and undereducated? And why was there civil war? I'm saying that a free market from inception would never reach the point of Somalia. And secondly, phasing things out is important as well. For example, I want the Fed to be gone. However, because it is so intimately interwoven into our economy, it would be foolish just to simply abolish it. One would need to phase it out.
Crony capitalism (free markets) wouldn't exist if greedy people didn't exist.... which make up both sides of the coin.
You don't know what crony capitalism is if you think that a free market is crony capitalism. Crony capitalism is when the government forms close relationships with business. A free market has no government (or at least very very minimal).
Boredperson, first off I want to think you for be willing to take the time to spell out the issues you think are vital and to engage everyone in a debate of substance. I tend to think boith sides are right and the problem is both that we have both an unmitigated greed in wall street, that is willing to do anything for the bottom line of money, and an unmitigated lust for power in washington that is willing to do anything for those that will give them more power and money. The end result is that corporations and government, which both exist, ultimately, to contribute something to the world, existing for the sole purpose of growing bigger, more powerful and more wealthy. When we reach that point the leviathan is so big it is simultaneously on wall street and on Pennsylvania ave. It actually reminds me of the relationship between the drug dealer and the drug addict, who is more at fault-the one who supplies the drug or the one who keeps asking for more.
I agree. I think that who is at fault is not quite as black and white as I'm making it out to be. However, I do wholeheartedly believe that the government is the root problem, not the corporations.
So you think if you had no government, no bank would sell worthless derivatives. no b s mortgage backed securities. What are you, a 12 year old? No doubt the invisible hand will fix everything. No wait, after investors lose their retirement they can just switch banks.
I should amend and say, of course there will be individuals who will pay the expense of taking the risk of consuming at a crappy bank. Who knows what they'll lose from it.
If a bank sold you something worthless, would you continue to be a consumer of that bank? If you disagreed with "bs mortgage backed securities" that a bank was offering, would you continue to be a consumer of that bank? Obviously, no. Let's move to the next bank then, who will make a profit off of the loss of customers from the crappy bank. Yay, competition just saved us. Hoorah. Of course there will be individuals who lose everything. But do you think it makes ANY sense if a bank wishes to be profitable, for it to cheat its consumers? Of course not!! In a free market, banks that are crappy will lose credibility fast and will go out of business fast.
Cheating can be very profitable. If you have lost your life savings competition won't save you. So no Hoorah. Banks have lost credibility, but they're still there. So is the mafia.
Banks were bailed out. That's why there still here. By the mafia you mean the government? Cheating is profitable in the short term. And then you go bankrupt because no one does business with you anymore.
No,by mafia I mean mafia. Anarchist are mental children. Remove the one thing people have that can mitigate Oligarchy, (government) and all will be well. Yea, not so much.
This is partly true.Hence the newly elected congress are the elites that put themselves in office. Yes the the hill is bought and paid. Now they sit in power and on wallstreet. They have to be removed. They don't uphold the Constitution.
"I'm not going to listen to the links" Ignorace is bliss, right. What we see today is that wealth os being concentrated into the hands of richer and richer individuals - cash means power, certainly in the US where money`s playing such a big role in elections.
I'll act it out for you:
Business: Hey government, have some money! Government: Sure, I'd love so money! Business: Hey government, we'll keep giving you money if you do us favors! Government: Nope, that would be unfair to the people.
WOAH!!!! THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED THIS ENTIRE MESS JUST BY SAYING NO!!! It must be the corporations' fault, right???????
except the government/politicians didn`t say "nope"
I'll act it out again because it's fun:
Business: Hey government, have some money! Government: Sure, I'd love some money! Business: Hey government, I'll keeping giving you money if you return the favor! Government: Of course, I'll gladly accept your money and return the favor! Business: Wow, thanks for the extra power government!
EXACTLY. So whose fault is it? The government officials who willingly, thoughtfully, consciously said "yes," or the businesses that attempted to give money to them?
Sure, thats why the OWS is criticize the WHOLE system. Theyre all crooks
Fine, great. We've made a breakthrough. However, we must then either ban the government from saying YES to donations and bribes or we must ban corporations from offering bribes or donations to the government in the first place. However, it would be MOST prudent to either do both, or the first one.
It would be hard to get those laws passed, though, considering that the politicians are baught........
Certainly, it would be difficult. However, it is the solution. And we must fight for the correct solution.
We have anti-corruption laws today that apply to politicians and private sector employees. I suspect that they are easy enough to circumvent. What happens when the politicians and CEOs decide to ignore those hypothetical new laws? Protest again and make more laws?
Agreed
And the businesses AREN'T guilty???? You are a complete moron.
You keep going through my comments and bringing up the same point. Read what I've already written. I agree that both should be held accountable.
No, you keep blaming only the government. I've read through all your posts. You say the government is responsible but don't mention that both the government AND the businesses are responsible.
My responses to you have all declared my agreement. I'm only directing the blame solely towards the government because it is the root problem, and I'm trying to get people to realize that. They tend to blame only the corporations, while completely disregarding the role of the government.
So, if the government told them to jump in a tank full of alligators, and they did it, it would be only the government's fault as the root cause? BOTH are EQUALLY to blame, because they are in bed together and make sure they take care of each other.
My suggestion to you to do something is likely not the root cause. If I tell you to jump in a tank of alligators, you would then choose to listen to me or not to listen to me. The corporations would be the ones that are making such a suggestion, and the government is the one that is choosing to listen.
You completely ignored everything I said. You are certainly the ignorant one here.... I mean, you don't have to know a single thing about politics or economics to understand the order of causation here....
"The politicians only have the power the the finacial elites give them."
sorry, didn't realize I was dealing with a 9/11 truther.
return to fantasy land. sorry to have bothered you.
Im not a truther, in fact i despise them. I think its best if you express YOUR opinions and I express mine.
Crypto666,
It's not are fault you aren't keeping up with the cities that are involved in the occupations. In fact, a large protest was held in DC--march before the WH and on to the Capitol Building--by OccupyDC, joined by other groups that wanted to support. The final numbers were in the thousands of last weekend's march on DC.
If the folks calling us all radicals will at least do some research besides just listening to Limbaugh and watching Fox News, you might get the truth. And it's a lot more work than just flipping channels to CNN and MSNBC. It would be good to go online and read what some of the newspapers are covering in each city. God bless you and the United States of America.
"It's not are fault..."
what?
"God bless you..."
please. god doesn't exist.
but what do I know? like most atheists who despise both parties, I'm just "listening to Limbaugh and watching Fox News" right?
kneejerk fail.
"F" stands for...? there is a mounting protest in D.C.
"'F' stands for...?"
if you have to ask, then you represent the clueless, mindless followers I suspect many of the protesters are. great job!
To those who think we, #OWS, are targeting the wrong people by targeting Wall Street rather than DC, let me draw a parallel for you:
Law Enforcement has been waging a war against drugs and prostitution for quite a while now. For decades, their target was the dealers, and the prostitutes themselves. They arrested many of these, but they could not affect a change. Why? Because there is a demand for the “product”, there is always another to step into the void. What have they done recently? Reverse stings. These stings target the people buying the drugs, or the johns looking for the prostitutes. Whether or not this new operation will prove to be more successful is debatable, but the fact remains that the old way was not working.
OWS: For decades, we have been electing different people into office, hoping to affect a change. No dice. It doesn’t matter if we vote democrat or republican, new faces just get sucked into the “system”. Why? Because there is still a demand for the “product”, there is always another to step into the void. So now, we also have no choice but to go to the source of the money to try to affect change. Whether or not this new operation will prove to be more successful is debatable, but the fact remains that the old way is not working.
Occupy Wall Street! Occupy Everything! Occupy Together! We are the 99%, and so are you!
weak argument, no matter how large and bold the words are.
and as long as you're electing reps and dems, you sure as hell aren't "electing different people"
you might want to look up the reelection rate, too. police are now stinging personal consumption drug buyers? did you make that up? I could go on. far too many flaws in your premise.
sorry about the bolded part, I wrote this in word and pasted it here, that is how it came out, and it didn't look that way before the post.
You don't know about "reverse stings"? Do you even live in this country?
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Suspect-in-deadly-reverse-sting-was-DEA-informant-120974059.html
Google is your FRIEND!
As far as the reps and dems, that has seemed our only options. We have tried to get some libertarians elected, but the machine kills them. But we DO try to get different people elected, even if it is within the two party system. I seriously doubt you could go on, because you covered about all of my points, wrong though your rebuttal may be. :)
Re: reverse stings...seemed like you meant personal use buyers rather than what is in that story.
And, no, electing any dem or rep is not electing someone new. It's the same old shit.
is this a rant?! There ARE protestors in DC. They have been there for 10 days.occupydc is There!
Nope, no rant. Yes, I know the Occupation is also in DC, I had just noticed people pointing out, rightly, that the occupation of Wall Street is bigger than the one in DC, and thought I might give a tentative answer as to why. :)
it's not a rant, it's a question.
there are about 50-100 people protesting DC. means nothing.
there are 1000s wasting their time on wall st. THOSE people should be in DC in front of the white house and the capitol.
not saying it is, but it sure seems like this group is not there because the WH and senate are in the hands of democrats.
seriously, does this not make any sense to you? that you ought to bring the biggest protest to the entity most responsible?
We have brought it to the people most responsible. My post explains why that is. Thanks :)
"We have brought it to the people most responsible."
Not until you are on capitol hill and/or the white house.
Have you ever looked in the mirror and asked THAT person why they are not in Washington DC? Instead of accusing others.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything, so spare me the hissy fit. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. your angry response (and your other nearly identical angry response) speaks volumes and tells me my suspicions about why are likely correct.
Do you always expect others to do your fighting for you? Why the fuck aren't YOU in Washington DC?
We are in Washington, D.C. and we are in Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, Tampa, Orlando, San Jose, and so many others. That is the beauty of the 99%. There are so many of us to go around the country and the world and we are all looking for the same things: peace, equality and justice. It is a concept that is hard to understand when you allow greed and corruption to lead your path.
the people at fault work in the white house and on capital hill. the people who accept the bribes and make the special consideration to those who shovel money at them are who this protest should be targeting. it is a concept that is easy to understand when you refuse to allow petty partisanship, gullibility, and emotion to guide your actions.
there is nothing radical about small r-republicans, independents, moderates, liberals, and democrats peacefully assembling to protest the economic oppression and political manipulation and corruption by the 1% over the rest of us--the 99%. You are ill informed and should watch something else beyond just Fox News. God bless you and god bless the United State of America.
You're just as greedy as corporate america. You're complaining that the distribution of wealth is unfair. Go out and build your own wealth, it's not the 1%'s fault that you're a failure.
It is the 1% that have paid for the rules to be changed, that is not a fair system.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/99-percenters-and-53-percenters-face-off/?src=tp you should check that out
I completely understand what you are trying to point out. There is a lot of ridiculousness being spewed as well as a lot of fact. Ultimately, the underlying problem that is frequently looked over is that a majority of the problems that have risen were put in place over 2 decades ago. Honestly eos, you do seem like the type who is willing to do homework, but I don't think you have done enough. What I mean by that is that any problem with multiple opinions, viewpoints etc needs to be HONESTLY analyzed from all angles before a strict conclusion can be agreed upon.
This is where I stand -- I too own my own business, a pizza place at that. I have grown 12% as a company DURING the 2008 recession. I am doing just fine financially and am in good health. I personally could continue through the rest of my life doing exactly what I am doing and would have no problem with 1% of the population controlling a majority of the money. However, after doing an extensive amount of "homework" I have come to realize that the system that has been put in place was designed specifically for this failure to happen. I would even argue that it is the 1% of the 1% that actually control the money, and those are the people who are going to profit today. The are profiting through decades of monetary policy changes and quite possibly (I believe it to be true) but fraud - straight up lying and deception.
There are many many many less read people that are "saying things" during the protest - but despite their lack of knowledge they "feel" something is not right and they just can't quite put their finger on it. So they are screaming, pleading for someone who does have the knowledge they don't to stand up and say -- "enough is enough" -- All I want is a fair system, because I too would love to capitalize on the peoples desire for service.
I hope you understand that I don't want to be enemies with anyone and I truly want to discuss everything in an honest and open fashion.
Thank you so much for your intelligent and thoughtful responses. What we need now is real solutions, not the same partisan, point scoring and bickering that pits the "dems"and the "repubs" against each other, as if we are not the same people facing the same problems in the same country, and as if we don't all ultimately want the same thing out of life (some peace and stability, and a decent chance to raise a family and improve our minds.)
I disagree with your argument for three reasons.
1) I don't really think that that is true. There is no level playing field. education costs money. People in the upper levels of society connect with the others in the upper levels thus ensuring that they remain in power.
2) We can trade statistics and anecdotal evidence about whether someone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps forever. However, what is more important is what your argument justifies. The view that someone isn't rich because they are "imperfectly evolved" lacking in cognitive ability or inherently "lazy" is EXTREMELY dehumanizing. It is this very logic that has justified every genocide in history. Indigenous populations were justifiably exterminated because they were "cognitively incapable" of advancing the "wonders of western society". The fact that the looked and acted differently than rich white men meant they could justifiably be killed. In fact, your argument is justifying a contemporary, ongoing genocide against the poor. The rich ensure that there is no structural way that someone in poverty can support themselves. Then they blame it on the person in poverty in order to continue taking away the means by which that person lives. Millions of people die from poverty because those in power systematically dehumanize them and take away their means of survival so that they can buy another private jet.
3) Even if it is possible for those in poverty to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and even if this argument didn't justify an ongoing genocide on the poor, there are still some major problems of the nature of capitalist "success" itself. The logic of capitalist expansion destroys the environment,creates numerous resource wars, and constitutes an ongoing war on the third world. There is no question that an economic model that relies on the absorption of surplus value via consumption will inevitably destroy the environment and possibly even conditions for life on earth. The acceleration of greenhouse gas emissions via industrial production and consumer automobiles and the acceleration of global warming will at the very least cause a huge amount of the world's population to be submerged by the melting ice caps. Also, it is not coincidental that every war that we are currently engaged in is in a very resource rich region. Libya has some of the best crude oil in the world that is absolutely essential for the European capitalist nations. Iraq had substantial oil reserves while Afghanistan has one of the largest concentration of rare earth metals in the world (an essential ingredient in electronics). Lastly, the "success" of western capitalism inherently relegates the third world to the position of "natural recourse" banks for western companies. The population of the third world is an expendable after thought ground under the wheel of "successful" entrepreneurial resource extraction.
While there are numerous other problems with the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument (ranging from racism to sexism to heteronormativity), these are the three arguments that I believe are the most relevant in the context of the Occupy Wall Street movement and there critique of current capitalism.
Oh god it's an arts major, no wonder you're on the OWS bandwagon. Also food for thought: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/99-percenters-and-53-percenters-face-off/?src=tp
FWI I'm in high school. Also, thank you for admitting that you advocate genocide. Since you had no coherent answer to my point I'm going to have to assume you agree with me.
oops **FYI I'm in high school.
How much wealth have you built for yourself, exactly?
~10k
That doesn't exactly put you in the 1%, you know...
It is a drop in the bucket. A lack of a job, or if you own a business, then the lack of customers could wipe you out in a New York minute.
I haven't worked yet (aside from summers), I've been a student for my entire life thus far.
That's what I figured.
You're in school still. You've worked a little here and there and still have the benefit of not needing to care what things cost in the real world. When you throw in rent and weekly food budgets, $10k won't last you a year on your own, even living at poverty levels. It's easy to save when you don't have basic expenses.
You think our situations would be better if we'd just get an education and work? I have a Bachelor's degree in Organizational Leadership, something that overlaps with Business Management and Business Administration. While I was in college I studied finance, investment, economics, entrepreneurship, management theory, political science, international business, mathematics, history, and an assortment of practical subjects that have applications in the real world. I wasn't some art or English major and I excelled in my studies. Guess what? I'm $20k+ in debt and the last full time job I was able to get involved working 10 - 12 hour shifts in the heat of a humid Florida summer picking up garbage in a busy amusement park for minimum wage. Don't you dare tell me to try getting an education and working. If the situation does not improve this is exactly what waits for you once you get out of school.
There are few things in life that rival the value of hard work, but hard work is only able to pay when the game is not rigged against you. You're going to be in for a world of shock when you finish up a degree in finance and find yourself working at Walmart for some asshole who wants you to work overtime on your birthday so he can duck out early and bone his girlfriend before his wife gets back from out of town. They will continually ask you to do more than that which you agreed initially for the same pay and you won't be able to walk away because you'll have debts and need to eat. That's the real world.
The only degrees that are going to get you anywhere once you are out of school are ones that will get you entry working in a hospital as a tech or a nurse or working within the prison system. Your other option is to enlist in the military and get shipped off to Afghanistan or Iraq and hope someday they'll consider your package to be commissioned as an officer. Those are pretty much the only viable long term options available at the moment.
Only a few people are looking for handouts. Most of us are just looking for that which we were told waited for us once we got out of college so we can support ourselves and get on with our lives.
That is why so many older Americans in the 99% are getting involved in some way or another. I am 61 years old and now retired. I am part of the sandwich generation. That is those of us who have aging parents that we are helping and children who are adults but can't quite seem to make it in this unjust and inequitable world due to what is happening in the economy as a result of the greed and corruption of the 1%. I support this cause and I am inspired by our young people. I think that encouragement and support is what they need and not to be torn apart by those who still cannot see the truth. They will be left in the dust of the ones who see the truth and find the answers to repair the damage that has been done. I still believe in "God bless America". My father risked his life in WWII to guarantee that we would be free and now we need to make sure that we don't lose that freedom. Stand strong Occupiers and know that there are many that support you.
Ouch... it has to be especially difficult for those of you in your 60s. I'm in my thirties. For the most part I just want to see sanity restored in this country. I find it absurd that we have a bunch of capitalist ideologues who, in contradiction to policies that created one of the most vibrant middle classes in history, support policies that have led the majority of people into poverty every time they have been tried.
I don't want a free lunch. I want a job where I can work hard and provide for a family. I don't want to steal from the wealthy and give it to people that don't want to work. Instead, I want to find ways to get people working and lift them out of poverty so they can afford to pay taxes too. I believe that is aided along by collectivizing some of society's costs, like education and health care. I don't even fully oppose the free market -- it exploits people but sometimes that is the price you pay for efficiency and innovation. The key is for society to compensate them in other ways.
I'll say one thing though... we certainly live in interesting times.
I agreed with all you said up to the free market part. May be that term needs definition for some. It generally means, in economics, deregulated, markets and I think we have seen how that has worked out.
I agree but I think we need to focus on where the problem really lies. The government. They have not only enabled this but aided via legislation (regulation) the 1% to rig the system in their favor in trade for the cash needed to get reelected. The answer is no campaign finance reform, they can find ways around that. It's complete and total deregulation of the market place. NO MORE POLITICAL FAVORS FOR CORPORATIONS. Return the power to the people to choose who they do business with or to go into competition with those businesses they don't find appealing. Right now competing with corporations is impossible for the small business people because there are way to many regulatory hoops to jump through. Regulation doesn't hurt corporations, they write them, they hurt the small business folks.
I pay my own rent and food budget with the 10k quite easily. Rent cost me 350/month and food ~ 400. Sure I may not live in the nicest place, but that's a sacrifice I make. Spending beyond ones means is what this is all about.
Also http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
BRAVO! This is EXACTLY what these braindead morons need to hear, but of course won't.
do you have jobs or can you offer jobs to all those who are unemployed? if not, try to understand their problem and proclaim solidaity with them instead of turning them down. if the world were a better place for every one, this movement would not be necessary. fighting for justice is a must in a world of injustice.
Thanks babybibi. Written in Clear Layman terms.
Start a business. there is a variety of loans or grants available through small business administration or nonprofit organizations - and plenty of available talented workers. be a rebel - start a community bank. there are plenty of under served areas in the country where such a venture would succeed.
if you have to move to find a job, take a lesser paying job or find a job outside your field - the world isnt going to end. the government doesnt owe anyone a job. not why we have government.
why should anyone feel pain for unemployed people taking vacations to new york city to stand in solidarity with OWS? why not organize in your area? thats the only way change will happen. local action on local issues. find some OWS types you click with and start a business.
the next election is in 2012. i hope everyone remembers to register and vote. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/marc-faber-america-listen-you-lazy-bugger-you-need-tighten-your-belts-you-need-work-more-lower-
I own a small business. What most small businesses need are customers, not loans. Taking out loans without the likelihood that sales can be increased is irrational. The primary cause of the decline in US standard of living and the real economy is outsourcing due to the elimination of tariffs through free trade agreements. Both parties have contributed to this, up to and including Obama. I would encourage all who read this to contact their senators, congressmen and the whitehouse to oppose the Korean, Columbian and Panamanian trade agreements.
are you kidding me go feed the corrupt system. its because of people like you that the 1% has control over our economy and government. you think were working towards a good place to live allowing the rich to get richer at the expense of the poor getting poorer. wake up we need change, we need to take money out of politics, then and only then will the government stand for the people, not the coporations.
Do we really need to take money out of politics? in my opinion we simply need to return the power to create and regulate the value of money to the people.
Just work hard and success will follow. It's really that simple. There are students at my school that have signed 6 figure contracts for next year and they're 21. It just takes hard work and determination.
"Just work hard and success will follow" That
s certainly not the advise the gangsters at Wall Street and the finacial elit have taken. They have cash cominout of their ears for exploiting workers, pushing buttons on a computer, gambling with loans and than taking a break from reading Friedman so they can run to the nanny state so that the tax payer can bail them out when they screw the whole economy up.you should go push buttons on a computer and make millions if it's so easy
I never said that the gangsters arnt clever and good at what they do. Pushing the right buttons is not hard work, though. And that goes for the other things i mentioned.
tax payers ruined the economy by taking out mortgages they couldn't afford
The prospective homeowners were Manipulated by predatory lenders.
You really think homeowners are that stupid? They knew what they were doing, they were just greedy and accepted the high risk loans in order to buy the best house possible.
Wait! From what Im getting you're a kid in college. I worked in the housing industry(new homes) during the bubble and watched it BUST. The new homes along with the resales went up 140% from 2000- 2006. Predatory lenders were circleling the housing industry like lions on the kill.The lender knew how to push the pencil to get the loans approved. Builders raised the price of their lots/homes everytime there was a new release of homes on the market.I worked for a few builders where they raised the price on houses every 4 weeks... $20,000. I know what I m talking about. I sat in that sales offiice for 7 yrs..You know absolutley NOTHING about what went on unless you were in the MIX. GREED was the motive. The banks created it. They had plenty of docs(no docs and variables and APR's were tops on the list) to swindle prospective homeowners. Wallstreet was behind it. They are the mortgage companies, the banks, the insurance companies!
not to mention fractional reserve, when your note hit the banks books it got multiplied x9.
well they get the note from you and then sell it to investors, in reality getting paid at least twice for the same note.
yes i do
The FBI stated that abuse by lenders caused the mortgage crisis that led to the economic meltdown. They first warned of the coming crisis back in 2004. W. protected those responsible from being prosecuted and Obama has since done the same. Incidentally, both received huge campaign contributions from the financial industry...
Partially, yes, but they were tricked by banks who wantet short term profits. Besides, Greenspan admitted everything in 08. The deregulation caused the crash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAH-o7oEiyY&feature=related
How were they tricked? They were given mortgages they couldn't afford. Sure the banks shouldn't have issued the mortgages but the people were equally responsible for taking on more debt than they could handle. The culture of over consumption that's perpetuated in America is really the culprit.
"How were they tricked?" I just told you. The banks wanted short term profit and sold them a bill of goods with long complex contracts, hidden fees etc. The banks wanted short term profit, Greenspan admitted it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzsiXsbPQY4
the people could handle the debt, until the mortgage rates went up and the jobs started disappearing and other INFLATIONARY factors sucked the buying power out of the peoples hard earned dollars. What school did you say you went to again??? it seems you got screwed out of an education....
Mortgage rates are variable, it's a risk those home-owners were willing to take. Interest rates go up and they can't afford it? Tough break. No such thing as a free lunch.
The people were sucked into those loans by the environment of artificially low interest rates the were artificially low low for an extended time. Artificial because of the ability of a private banking institution to regulate the cost of money. Exacerbated by the fact that other "people", loan originators, with a supposed fiduciary responsibility to INFORM the borrowers of the dangers of taking a loan at such artificially low interest rates were vulnerable to sudden and sharp moves in the interest rates were just too blinded by profit to properly caution borrowers in part because of motivation for their own personal gain in the feeding frenzy artificially low interest rates as well as their inability to judge just when the FED might jack up rates. Also You seem to want to ignore the second part of my point about the massive loss of jobs at the exact same time of rapid mortgage rate rise. "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning".- Henry Ford You are clearly one of the people to whom Mr. Ford refers to...
Interest rates ARE NOT variable for fixed-rate mortgages. Also, property taxes can go up and can go up a lot. So, what if they go up so much that the homeowners can no longer afford their houses?
You're another idiot troll.
They're generally amortized over 20-30 years and the terms are re-negotiated every 5 years depending on the term of the mortgage. Anything can happen in 5 years so home owners should've acknowledged the risk associated with their debt.
Um.... nope. My fixed-rate mortgage can't change at all.... not the payments and not the interest. It says so in the mortgage papers that I signed. The only thing that can change my payments is property taxes.
Predatory lending assumes that the lenders have foreknowledge that the risks are unacceptable - legally the blame is not on the borrowers. If there were no loans issued, there would be no chance for the borrowers not to pay. If I buy a product and it doesn't work, it is not my fault, but the fault of those who made the thing, unless they had a disclaimer "as is". Nice try though.
Are you kidding? If you max out all your credit cards through impulsive spending (as many of the OWS people do) you're held accountable for the debt you've acquired. Mortgages are no different, you're well aware of the responsibility you're taking on and it's your job to make the payments unless you want to lose your home. People who had their house re-posessed knew what they were getting into.
oh you manchild in college! Have you brought a home yet? Have you lost your JOB,your livelyhood,by No Fault of your own! Did you? Were you put in the position whereas you had to take a part time job to take care of your family...cause all the jobs have been shipped overseas? Did you decide if you will buy food or pay the light bill? Are you trying to put your child through college with half of your savings depleted...oh wait your're a kid! You know NOTHING about this recession!! Study hard!
Exactly!! Why is it that my mom's, a co-worker's, and my 401(k)s values were cut in HALF when Bush 43 was in office, but as soon as Obama took over, they went back up to their original value???
No fault of their own? Are you kidding? They spend more than they could afford and there were consequences. What sounds more immature to you, someone who takes out a big loan and then cries when they can't pay it or someone who accepts responsibility for their debt?
No offence eos, but you really seem naive to what has happened. Listen to what MiMi is saying - she is correct.
A majority of the homes that were lost were not people that took on more than they could handle, just a quick drive around my city (where things are pretty good still) and you can see a lot of the foreclosed homes came from people that were doing "just fine" in life - what caused those people to incur hardship were things such as savings being depleted, jobs outsourced, businesses going bust because they could not borrow money which in my opinion was bad business to begin with, but no fault of the employee.
All of this can be sourced to monetary and political policy. There are rules that have been changed, and rules that have been broken for more than a decade -- this has been building up for a lot longer than you have been alive.
Listen to the person typing in caps and calling people a "manchild." Right. Why even take out a mortage if you don't have a contingency plan in the event you become unemployed? That excessive risk is totally unneccesary, it's just greed on the end of the consumer.
" Why even take out a mortage if you don't have a contingency plan in the event you become unemployed?"
Gosh, you are so incredibly naive and ignorant. There aren't too many people who'd be able to pay for their houses in the event that they become unemployed.... except for the elite. In that case, almost no one should by a house.... according to your illogical idea.
Then they shouldn't have houses, they should rent. You can't always get what you want.
Are you paying for your college tuition out of your pocket, if you are in college? Or, do you have a loan to pay for it?
I pay for it myself. It's 6k/year as I go to a public university.
I am not quite sure what other contingency plan you could take out for losing a job other than, try to get another job. That in effect is not possible. I would however agree with the idea that for a person to purchase a home or take on any sort of debt should ultimately have better financial planning right from the start. 20% down payment wasn't that long ago, that was a pretty sound practice. Better yet in 1913 the lending practice was that the down payment was the entire interest cost of the loan to begin with, where did that go? It is monetary policy that has allowed these things to happen. A good analogy would be mopping a kitchen floor, yes it does not have to be mopped every single day, but soon that turns into it doesn't need to mopped every week, then month and sooner or later no one is mopping at all and you end up with one dirty ass kitchen floor. My apologies if you aren't understanding what I mean by this.
I agree, lending practices were getting to loose. But borrowers are just as guilty for leveraging their houses so highly.
You got alot to learn manchild in college. You haven't paid a housenote in your life. You haven't yet EXPERINCE((what I quoted) to give this type of advice. Your arguements hold no water. Adios.
My guess is that eos is actually still in secondary school and hasn't even entered the college arena yet.
I have a feeling reality is going to hit this one hard someday.
I agree. Reality bites you in the ass!!!! If only I could live without having to pay bills again... ha.... but I do enjoy being able to buy a house and pay for everything that I enjoy.... traveling, sports, etc. But, it can be very tough, and I have lived that before and am very thankful that I now can enjoy what I have done for myself.
Is that what you say every time someone says something you don't like?
No, that was an honest assessment at the time. You've said things about yourself since then that contradict that assessment and I honestly apologize.
Why is it that NONE of this happened when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s (well, the savings and loan scandal happened under Reagan.... because of deregulation)?
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement and I am a homeowner. People are too excessive with debt, and too quick to blame he person who lent them the money.
My old school grandmother taught me how to save when I was a kid and taught me how to make good on my promises. That's why I wear the same shoes for over 5 years, use a car to full life, buy a home big enough to meet my needs, and SAVE money.
Everyone seems to want to pass the buck on the institutions who made debt so cheap, but they werent complaining when they received the loan. I met a fireman that bought a property in the early 90's, took out home equity to buy a brand new Lexus SUV in 2006 and now foreclosed on that property. Is that fair to the bank that lent him the money?
If people really want to understand what is wrong with this country look around and see if you find any personal accountability anymore.
Perhaps you missed the now-revealed fraudulent foreclosure filings on homes in Florida? Think this didn't happen elsewhere?
Catch a clue, buckaroo...
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The houses in my area that cost $30,000 are in VERY unsafe neighborhoods. Are you suggesting that people should have to give up their safety in order to afford a house? I'm not advocating spending beyond someone's means, but having to give up safety is not good or fair.
I was fortunate enough to find an affordable house for myself in a good neighborhood, though.... and it wasn't a foreclosure house.
i wish i could afford an affordable house.
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Most of the neighborhoods in Detroit are crime-ridden and unsafe, though. Friends of my family lived across from Henry Ford Hospital for years, and there are drive-by shootings there continually. I live in Ann Arbor.
If it wasn't so freakin cold Id move to Detriot and buy one of those fixer-upers(sigh)
You wouldn't want to live in most neighborhoods of Detroit, though (the City of Detroit), and the neighborhoods that are safe in Detroit probably are expensive. Most of the suburbs are safe. I was able to find a house in the Ann Arbor area for $99,000, and it wasn't a foreclosure house. It's in a township next to Ann Arbor that is much cheaper than Ann Arbor. You barely can find anything in Ann Arbor for under $200,000.
what school is that?
What? 21 and 6 figures? Are they professional athletes? How much hard work can a 21 yr. old have performed anyway?
they're entry level investment bankers and associate consultants
that explains everything about your opinion. they havent worked at any time, their "work" is exploiting the work of others, by the power of the state. that is what financing is about, taking the money where profits can be made. its not productive work, its just leeching on mankind.
They aren't exploiting the work of anyone. They're helping companies with acquisitions and mergers, how does that leech on mankind?
they are helping companies with exploiting workers, thats what im saying. how does that leech on mankind? companies make profits by paying wages, they dont pay the value of work but the value of the labor power. the difference between the wage and the value of commodities they are selling goes into their own pockets, called a profit, that is the leeching on the working class by capital that is capitalism.
Acquisitions and Mergers.... yep... those are completely innocent business deals.... yep.
I see what you did there!
Yipee! More trained corporate theives.
eos probably is one of them.... if she/he isn't still in high school.
Yep.... there's your answer!!! Ha ha!!!
Bankers work 80-100 hours a week and do something most people can't do. I'd be hesitant to call them thieves.
lol. keep me laughing collegekid :~D
You sit on your ass calling successful people thieves and bitching at the government to share their wealth with you. You're the reason America has gone to shit. No longer do people ask what they can do for their country, but rather ask their country what it can do for them.
Don't worry. They will be groomed as politicians.
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definetly that war.
Only income above 130k is taxed at 46% in Canada, everything bellow that is taxed at the marginal tax rate ranging from 20-46 so in actuality it's around 30-40% depending on how much over 130k he makes
HOLY CRAP -- 30 to 40% -- that is ridiculous!!! Guess that is the cost for social healthcare etc...I prefer to buy my own medicine, because I personally practice a healthy lifestyle.
I agree, it is ridiculous. It's part of the reason a lot of graduates in Canada move to the US, to take advantage of lower tax rates.
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It would be better to see no taxes on sweat income period. That money is yours and mine -- not our governments. The government should only, in my opinion, be able to collect a commerce tax (sales tax), a property tax (for defending our land) and all the rest of the money they need should come from exporting worldly goods such as fuels and hopefully someday super-conducted electricity. www.energybackedmoney.com
You are a troll, rolldy roll....go get a brain
ok hitler, we'll get right on that! Traitor! I mean don't you need to follow your factory job on over to China, and watch out for that nasty prison camp I heard about!
I already have a job and have made something of myself.
Troll
oh collegekid. you sit in your dorm room posting insults(troll) on this website,but you never even paid a housenote in your life. you propably don't pay your own college tuition.
When you get some experience in those areas..come back and give US the 99% some advice.
You're right, I haven't paid a housenote in my life. But either way I'm smart enough that I'll take a mortgage I can afford. I won't spend beyond my means like many of the morons that lost their homes.
only the dumbest calves choose their own butchers..german adage
since when is it crazy and radical to fight injustice? Everything hitler did he first made legal when these same tactics are employed years later peaceful protest and organization is crazy and radical as opposed to what? armed rebellion?
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You're from Oshawa, I'd expect nothing less. Go ndp?
Why are there so many americans who like to kick people when they're down? Does it make them feel better about themselves? I hope not.
this collegetrollkid(eos) isn't American. collegetroll comes to this website to insult,kick and give advice to people in the US it knows nothing about. collegetrollkid has no experience buying a house,paying utilites,putting food on the table and going to work for 30+ years...only to be given a pinknote one day informing us worker that his job no longer exist. collegetrollkid(eos) is just a lot of hotair posting about what "it" knows nothing about!
Everyone acts in their own self interest. It's what you're doing by protesting, you want a bigger piece of the pie so you're just as greedy as wall street.
Jeez.... you are so damn clueless and naive.
Is that what you say every time someone says something you disagree with? It sure seems that way.
No.... you truly are clueless and naive.
My mother was laid off 2 years ago, and still can't find a job. My step father works 2 jobs to support us. I had to quit my job at home so that I could leave for college. Even Mcdonalds won't hire me right now! I've put in at least 50 applications in the past few weeks and even with call backs nothing, not 1 interview. So for telling me to quit protesting and go get a job I say to you "I would if I could!"
You're doing it wrong then. I got a job last summer paying 15/hr with literally no work experience. And either way, the economy is in the gutter right now. Does that mean that the wealthy shouldn't be wealthy anymore? Absolutely not.
If you think that's the norm then you have absolutely no clue and aren't worth taking seriously.
The unemployment rate isn't where it's at because people suddenly don't want to work or don't know how to search for jobs. We have high unemployment and underemployment because the jobs aren't there -- hence all the talk about job creation and job loss numbers.
Also, with all due respect, getting a summer job isn't at all like getting a real job. It's easy to hire some kid when you don't have to pay him benefits, don't need to have him on full time, and only have to keep him on for a few months. It's different when you're hiring someone who is going to stick around indefinitely and will probably want to work overtime.
You really know a lot less about how the world works than you think and it shows.
My summer job was a full time position, I just quit after 4 months. Yes there is high unemployment, but if you have any sort of potential whatsoever you'll be good enough to get a min wage job.
And people can live off of minimum wage.... buy a house/pay rent, a car, buy food, pay all the utilitiy bills, etc.?
I bet you typed that sentence sitting on your lazy tail at your "job".
I'm a student right now actually
hey student - your sentence should read "actually, i'm a student." maybe you need to spend more time in class, instead of chatting it up on message boards.
absolutley. collegekid hasn't got a clue.
agreed
k. u win. here's a dollar.
Except for some extreme circumstances there is literally nothing stopping you from being successful. You either lack the ambition or the cognitive ability.
You're such a pompous, naive, and ignorant asshole. I hope life slaps you hard in the face when you get out of school.... in hopes that it will wake you the fuck up.
The funny thing is, if wall street offered you a job you'd probably take it in an instant. Call me what you want, I couldn't care less. All I care about is that I be rewarded for my success.
No, I NEVER would take a job on Wall Street. I love what I do, and money isn't my motivator in life. Happiness is.... and you can't buy that. It's so sad that people like you value money over everything else. I had a husband who values money above all else. I divorced him in 2001, because I couldn't stand to live with someone like that.
All you care about is money. It's obvious.
How about a job to earn the capital to begin either an educative or career path?
It isn't just lazy bums protesting "eos," it is many different people. The main point is that the baby boomer generation was handed over a country that was DEBT FREE, and now, it is in terrible position. The reason that it is in such a state is reckless spending and a misguided alignment of wealth.
At some point, EITHER NOW OR LATER, CHANGE MUST TAKE PLACE IN AMERICA, because TRILLIONS IN DEBT and a POOR ECONOMY does not sustain itself.
In 5-10 years we will know the outcome, but until then, I would say that it would be best to ask more questions, and criticize far less.
hear hear
only people who posses some intelligence and are capable of insight are able to perceive the full picture and foresee the outcomes of the current chaos. eos, you are right on many points, but this country has far too many problems and something has to be done or else your kids will friggin' starve. if there even is such thing as america in a couple of decades. in other words, ignoring the problems and sticking to ideals will not help this country, only make the situation worse.
For one, I'm not even American and for two, I'm not saying there is no problem I'm just disagreeing with you in what the problem actually is.
the problem, too, is american bullshitting - along the people who buy it. and i do feel angry, because a lot of this bullshitting hurt me too and very muchly, such as the bullshitting of my ex-husband who used me, abused me and then left for, as he put it, "a better opportunity". that's the mentality; there is war going on within each and every human being in this land, between what is right and what is the desire, which is to get rich and get rich fast. and i tell you, one more time someone says that America is No1, "the greatest country in the world", I'll puke through my nose. but, i am also glad that americans, at least some of them, are FINALLY realizing the mess they've created. imagine if they'd be ignoring the problems to the very end - the way they like to ignore and/or suppress everything with a big smile on their faces. they'd end up pointing their nuclear bombs at one another.
a good website here you may want to check out http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com
Terrifying article The Top 100 Statistics About The Collapse Of The Economy That Every American Voter Should Know: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-top-100-statistics-about-the-collapse-of-the-economy-that-every-american-voter-should-know
Please stop blaming every American, and there is abuse in EVERY place. Are you blaming a whole nation for the abuse your husband handed you? Abuse isn't just an American trait. My ex-husband is from Mexico, and he is an abuser.... a mental and emotional abuser. He has all kinds of issues, and that's why I divorced him. Do I blame all of Mexico for that? No. I blame him.
I agree with you about people claiming the USA is the best country ever. I get pissed about that, too. It's mainly the right wing who does that.
when you are born to a system of thought your ability to think for yourself is substantially compromised. if you have ever watched "matrix reloaded" this is exactly the sort of experience i have had living in this country: agents smiths everywhere - the millions of people who look the same, think the same, talk the same, react in the same manner to situations, have pretty much the same hobbies, etc. but no, i do not blame every american. i have met a few people who are not like that at all (not too many however - i can count them on my fingers). you may as well be one of those people, who knows. but don't kid yourselves. the majority of people here are a-holes.
true, Anon.
To ensure that I am not spreading false information, I double-checked: we were NOT debt free in 1946. It was actually $279 billion. My apologies.
gosh, that's peanuts compared with what it is now.
The US had trillions in debt going into the financial crisis, if you want to point the finger point it at the war. Antagonizing corporate america will just lead to more job loss. Why would anyone want to do business here if you want to spread wealth more evenly and put harsh covenants on capitalism?
Yes, Georgie 43 and his cronies put us into that debt, and then he and his cronies helped to foster the financial meltdown.
Very true. We are in a difficult position, no doubt. I don't think there is a clear and EASY solution, even if it may seem so in some ways. To address what you are asking, the corporate world is a tricky one because it has allowed for an efficient, streamlined economy that keeps up with the often frantic pace of modern civilization. However, it has also made for a economic environment that is not very diverse. And diversity is a huge key to a healthy economy (and I mean, "economy," not Wall Street).
Not only that, but it has created more minimum wage jobs, and less room for a "middle class" to root itself because most small businesses can't compete with the lower cost, high-efficiency chain-businesses. It is sort of like invasive weeds in a lawn, they eventually choke out any competitors.
You are asking an incredibly valid question, Eos. It is hard to say what the global market is evolving or de-evolving into. What comes to mind for me is the fact that regardless of whether any entities want to do business with America, in every country around the world, there are the 1,000 or 10,000 workers for every CEO -- and at some point it shifts from the CEO's best interest to the well-being of their workers.
It is a wild time right now: high-cost healthcare, a depressed economy across the board, and more and more American CEOs shipping jobs overseas to save overhead.
How long can average American citizens remain silent in this economy, if they GENUINELY cannot make ends meet, and there seems to be more protection provided for the big-business executives+co. than the actual workers?
Whatever happened to the grassroots revolutions? Has anyone been able to effectively address corporate greed in their own backyards? Global warming? Unemployment? Is this a government issue or a community issue? We need to brainstorm ideas that circumvent the broader government agenda. Neighborhood gardens if you will.
One of the major problems is "profiteering" and until we see our country as a community of one helping the other in some kind of way and making changes that allow for the greed of the 1% we are doomed to failure.
well said. companies should mind their workers and allow through pay for dignified living, that's simply the matter of common sense and respect. and they would still make nice profits. but, they are becoming more and more greedy, wanting billions in profits or CEO incomes, as opposed to millions.
Agreed. The few companies out there that get that are very prosperous and have very happy, dedicated, loyal employees (Trader Joe's and Whole Foods, for example). And in return, they have very happy and loyal customers. It all goes hand in hand.
It's not the companies job to give you money and make sure your life is great. They are there to make profits for their shareholders. This isn't communism. If you're going to blame anyone, blame government.
Yes, it IS the responsibility of companies to pay people fairly for the work they do for those companies and to treat them well. The idea you have is that of a slave society. It's no surprise to me that profits are the number one and sole goal for you.
Corporations work for profits for their shareholders. This is the complaint: when the bottom line is the primary concern, workers are sacrificed, and so is the overall prosperity of the economy. Eos, it is crucial to understand that if workers are not being properly compensated, or jobs are not widely available (which is the case), the WHOLE economy suffers.
A depressed economy didn't just fall out of the sky, it has been an accumulation of the last 20-30 years of corporations caring primarily for their OWN interests.
We DO live in utopia! IN it though we need garbage men, janitors, and plumbers... but when those jobs are taken, what's left is corporate jobs -- and they are not REPRESENTING the general public's interest... they are REPRESENTING their own. So, there is NO POWER OR VOICE for the one's doing the work. It sounds a lot like, TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION. Remember, this is why the U.S. broke away from G.B.?
History repeats itself.
yep
Actually companies operate to generate profit for shareholders. As long as they stay within the limits of the law they are acting as they should. It's governments responsibility to set and enforce those laws for the peoples sake.
That is correct, companies operate to make as much money as possible. It is the responsibility of Congress To enact trade policy. The primary reason we have a shortage of jobs is Free Trade policies. Reagan Bush(1 and 2) Clinton and Obama have all sold the American people out on this issue.
That is actually what they are asking: reasonable paying jobs. I am glad you agree with this movement
This is how are government responds to peaceful protest!? They are blinded by the "wealth" they may get for pursuing this inhumane attack. The Occupy Movement cannot stop! Let us continue, let us protest!
You call pepper spray inhumane? It washes off and doesn't do any permanent damage.
Being pepper sprayed is inhumane when people are peacefully protesting.... a right every U.S. citizen is granted to them by our Constitution.
Pepper spray doesnt do any permanent damage? Keep living in your dream world, kid.
I've been pepper sprayed and have sat in a CS chamber and neither are fatal. I don't walk through tough neighborhoods because I don't want to get mugged, and I don't attend protests because I dont like being pepper sprayed. This logical thought has kept me away from needless problems.
You must be Herman Cain?!
I just had to google that Herman guy because I never heard of him. Why do you all make this a political party thing anyway? Because only conservatives would disagree with your confusing protest? Or only someone from the right wing would think its dumb to cry inhumanity whenever someone gets pepper sprayed??
Because both you and Herman Cain share some similarities: (1) You don't like the Occupy movement and (2) You have yet to put forth a rational argument for your position.
Evidence doesn't support their position, so they have to lie and use emotional attacks. Whenever you ask someone like "AreUSerious" or Herman Cain for evidence, they restate their position with more emotion and babble on with misguided theories that are either so flawed that no sane person would test them or have been tested and thoroughly - but quietly - proved not to work. That, or they quote flawed statistics made up for use in a Monsanto newsletter, a KKK/Tea Party rally, or a conservative eugenics "think tank". It's hot air, bullshit, and nonsense. It's nice that so many people address their claims with evidence, but they'll just ignore the parts they don't like, just like the fundamental religious people.
Right on!
My grandfather got shot in the leg, and he lived on without any problems. Does that mean rifles arent dangerous? Im sure what the answer will be, but hey - I tried.
Walking around the mugging problem, smart - that'll make it go away. Protesting havent solved anything in the history of the United States, you're a true patriot for doing the same thing.
I think you can see where this is going, in your safe part of town.
Pepper spray causes temporary blindness and is made up of peppers. Unless your getting pepper sprayed while standing on a tightrope, you should be ok and won't have any battle scars to talk about when someone asks how things went down in zucotti.
A piece of metal ripping through your muscle in the form of a bullet is a completely different scenario, but go for it, gray comparison....
There are many known cases where spraying someone with pepper spray has led to deaths. You think its ok, just cause the "risk" isnt as great. But then again, they should know that doing something legal like protesting could mean the loss of their life.
Pepper spray isn't too great for asthma sufferers.
I'm pretty sure the girl who was pepper sprayed is ok and has no permanent damage, but you can pretend she's a martyr if you want.
Note how the troll attempts to dismiss suffering, troops! When they have had the ability to empathise conditioned out of them, anything bigger than them must be belittled!
Here's a clue, Less-than-serious. If one person even grabs another person without their consent, then, under the laws that govern the commoners in this country, they've committed a misdemeanor assault.
When that assault involves a weapon that even -might- result in death, it can be escalated to a felony assault, at the discretion of the person evaluating the charges, whether a grand jury, D.A., etc
The women who were sprayed by INSPECTOR ANTHONY BOLOGNA had committed no chargeable/prosecutable offense, meaning that there was no reason to either detain or SPRAY THEM with pepper spray, which means that a PIG with a badge was permitted to violate the laws he's supposedly sworn to uphold, and not only walk away, but likely face ZERO consequences, despite his known (yet unresolved) history of brutalizing protesters 7 years earlier...
In my 'hood, when a person's a loose cannon, they take away his toys, and sit him in the corner...
Apparently in your neighborhood, subjugation is acceptable, if only because it's gone on for so long.. and because the feller has a nice shiny piece of metal glued to his cowardly, bought-and-paid-for chest.
Good luck with that whole acceptance of one up-one-down, rolled-over-on-your-back-exposing-your-belly-like a-beta-dog bullshit. Bologna's a horse's ass in need of some serious discipline that his 'superiors' apparently won't give him.
I think the cop who did that was totally disrespectful of women first and foremost. What a freaking coward he was to trap 4 women into a corral and pepper spray them for no reason and then to slickly walk away. If he wasn't such a coward maybe he would have tried that with a big strong man who might have kicked his arse...but he didn't even have the courage to do that. This same cop was accused of police abuses before and after they got finished with the so-called investigation, he got a promotion. So what does that tell you?
I'll pretend she's a martyr (that didnt die?). And you can keep on living in your fantasy land where police continually are allowed to risk human lives just cause they are a minor nuisance close to Wall Street.
pepper spray hurts like hell
I do apologize, those screams heard from that poor women confused me. I mean all she did was protest, didn't break any laws. My bad
That dude $hitting on the cop car.... Now that was humane.
And, uh, ummmm, you're certain he was a protester because.... you know him?? He told you so? Someone with a camera took his picture, absent any evidence of protest-related signage that might indicate he's protesting something, and the photog told you so??
Do you always so easily buy any spin someone serves you?.
Do you say "Baaaa," when folks ask what you'd like for breakfast?
Poor car, I'm sure it will be traumatized for just standing around on a street corner doing something legal. Grey comparison.
solidarity with and red salute to all those who are in the fight for justice
Those that are responsible for this financial crisis run free.... cashed in on the PEOPLE's tax money in the form of bailouts.... and continue to operate and are currently making more money than before the bailout.
while demonstrators peacefully protesting decrying these actions are the ones getting arrested instead. Don't STOP.. never.
I am a Disabled Vietnam Veteran and I was appalled when I saw U. S. Veterans being treated so disrespectfully during last yesterday's rally in Boston. I call on all veterans to strongly protest this terrible treatment of our brothers and sisters. Most U. S Marines I served with in combat are part of the 99% and we are still being treated like unimportant slaves of the 1%. My veteran brothers and sisters, it is time to join the protest.
Is there any way to check and see if both the Dems and Rep receive donations from the same companies? I do not think its possible with our current system of campaign funding. I think unless a candidate can prove they have not received large campaign contributions from corporate sponsors we should not vote for them. Maybe we should do like Puerto Rico did in1999 and vote "none of the above" How many times have you voted for the lesser of two evils? If 99% of the population wrote in their vote and "none of the above" won maybe the people in power would realize how fed up we are. The original tea party was about taxation without representation. It seems the only people being represented these days are people that can donate large sums of money to campaigns. Anybody wonder what happens to that money. It is laundered through television time and print advertisements back to the 7 corporations that own 90% of media outlets. Do these corporations really want campaign finance reform. The corporations make their money no matter who wins. Result of this poltical evironment. Soaring company profits - falling median wage.
Vote "None of the above"
Rose Kennedy Would Have Allowed The Protesters To Camp On Her Lawn.
By Lloyd Hart
Rose Kennedy would most definitely have allowed the Occupy Boston protesters to camp on her lawn. Having lived through the dirty thirties and being an eye witness to the callousness by which the haves treated the millions made homeless as a result of the bursting of the housing bubble that precipitated the 1929 stock market crash, Rose Kennedy would have seen our modern day "Hoovervilles" cropping up and would have organized to feed the occupants, not remove them. It might be a fantasy of mine but I believe that the Kennedy boys got their heart from Rose Kennedy as they most certainly did not get it from old Joe.
With a clearly authoritarian response from Mayor Menino, the city of Boston has drawn a line that they plan to enforce that the protesters are not allowed to cross. Is the Mayor somehow trying to protect the memory of Rose Kennedy or as they speciously stated to protect some shrubs by violating the protesters right to assembly or are they really fearful that the camp will simply grow to fill the whole green way to properly match the real state of the economy.
The Hoovervilles of the 1930s came about in many respects for the same reasons that the Occupy movement did. As a response to the establishment's lack of response to the economic suffering of millions of unemployed and homeless men, women, and children all across America. The out of site out of mind mentality of our society has hidden the unemployment and homeless crisis in America this time around almost as cynically as it did in the 1930s. Sure things aren't quite as bad now as they were then. We have had unemployment insurance, some healthcare and a really lame stimulus bill but all that simply served to slow the downward spiral, not halted it. What is going to happen when the unemployment insurance extensions come to an end and the unemployed have no where to go? Millions of the unemployed with no income and no roof over their heads? What then Mayor Menino? And hasn't it already begun Mayor?
What is happening economically is an emergency much larger than the war on terror or any other scam the political and corporate establishment could blow up our collective asses and Mayor Menino knows it, but doesn't want to see it camped in down town Boston. Well, that's just too bad Mayor. Cause what's comin if you continue to enforce that utterly cynical line you've drawn in the green way will be larger and angrier than the police will be able to deal with.
Maybe Mayor, you should think a little about what Rose Kennedy would do.
Lloyd Hart 508-687-9153
Good article Lloyd. I also went to the site of the Green Way and wrote them a letter about the abuse by the police used as an excuse of protecting plants and flowers. I also learned that the Green Way is built on land that caused many to be displaced from their homes in the 1930's when they put the overhead highways in.
I understand your comments. I accept the spirit in which they are put into the blogosphere. But how about this, civil disobedience. Is it really about the grass? PBS has been running a series on the struggles of the late 50's early 60's. Those protestors were adamant about not breaking the law and observing local regulations when they marched or protested. Why can't this movement do the same? Any can set up in downtown New York, but the shrewed protestor is the one who can protest and not break the law. We can do it. When you break the law, you give the authorities all the ammo they need to assault you. What can they do to you if you protest, accomplish your aim and stay within the confines of the law?
The civil rights movement broke the law regularly and ran very effective boycotts. The anti war movement also broke the law regularly and in particularly by blocking traffic. They shut DC down for months at a time. Both these movements utilized non-violent civil disobedient traffic blocking. You are woefully misinformed about the era. In fact when civil rights leaders were told they would need a permit to march and then were denied permits they marched anyway and were violently attacked by the police. Breaking the law is how the civil rights movement won. In the case of the peace movement in the 1960s, it was the Vietnamese that ended that war by winning it. People brag the peace movement ended that war but it is simply not true.
The irony is that every city and town now requires all marches to have permits with many having to be submitted months in advance. Now we have free speech zones and kettling, total violations of the right of assembly.
Sometimes "the law is an ass and should be broken!" I think I am paraphrasing slightly but the point is that we are talking about over 50 million Americans utilizing food banks right now. Millions of children not getting enough to eat every day. This is an emergency and must be handled as though it were a labor union action of the 1930s. Not a peace march of the 1960s. There is absolutely no resemblance to the 1960s in todays economic conditions. There is no other time when the working class was richer than in the 1960s. The Occupy protests must become more like the labor movement of the 1930s in order to succeed. Otherwise they are just vanity protests and in reality probably homeless camps like the Hoovervilles of the 1930s but at least the Hoovervilles had the labor militancy the Occupy movement is completely lacking.
The Labor Unions won the right to a living wage in this country through militant action and now that battle has to be fought all over again because both parties are completely corrupt and controlled by the oligarchs.
When the Occupy movement is ready to truly fight the power I might become interested in joining in.
Then go and camp out on Rose's front yard!!!!!!!
You demean every person who inhabited a "hooverville". They were people of need, you people just don't have what you want. You have never not had a chicken in every pot. You put word's a dead lady's mouth so to help your cause. That is so disingenuous. Try just speaking for yourself.
And move because Brookfield want to clean up after your fucking mess.
Hey pal, go fuck your self.
People, the police need to be convinced and brought over to OWS' side too. Until that happens, these events will continue to escalate. Some people in this forum expressed concern over our brave troops and veterans coming to protect and support the protestors. That view is so misguided! The police should be standing down, not arresting people. Do they know who they're working for? Do they know they are being used as tools of oppression that will seal the fate of their own children in the future? Do they want to live in the nightmare Orwellian world that they are helping to create? We MUST appeal to police and military as well. WITH them, we are unstoppable. WITHOUT them, there will ultimately be violence, bloodshed, and this whole process will be much, much harder.
Agreed. For this movement to be successful we will need local government and police on our side. The military however will much harder to bring to our side. The answer to the 1% through the MIC and the president.
no, they take an oath to the Constitution. the Oathkeepers are the ones who are primarily behind protecting free speech and the American people from illegal orders. My fiance's son is a marine officer in training, and he confirmed that his loyalty is to the Constitution, not to the president.
That honestly is a very comforting thought. I do however hope that, like your son, many of the other men and women in uniform understand that very same concept.
We'll see how that plays out. But the US military is not like Egypt's in that its interests and leadership are self-contained. I've already seen the National Guard used against US citizens. I don't think it is above the powers that be to do so again if the establishment feels threatened.
I don't doubt that they will try. This is why the police are employing tactics in order to provoke violence on the part of the protestors - "kettling" which is what they did to those penned-up women when they sprayed them. As you can imagine, when they do that, it enrages people, especially the men. Also, planting provocateurs in order to do the same - try to get people who will say racist things or destroy property in order to discredit the movement. What I'm hoping is that most of the police, somewhere down the line, realize that they don't want their kids to live in this mess either.
Either way, the police and the military are part of the 99%, and we must make an effort to sway them to our side through education and NONVIOLENT resistance.
Who writes for the byline, "OccupyWallSt"? One, several, a working group? Your language sounds increasingly vanguardist in its hyperbole. When you see turtle suits, then call them "riot gear." When you see planned assaults against medics, rather than confusion in the night, then, maybe, talk about "war crimes." Look around. The public isn't dumb. #OWS has huge support. Don't screw it up with inflated rhetoric. For the 99%'s sake.
It was lit up well enough for me to view what went on using live streaming from my home in Florida. Wonder why there was confusion in the night if one was actually there. I was shocked and appalled at what I saw and especially by the police treatment of the Veterans, the Executive Director of the Northeast Lawyers guild and the medics.
Wow. You could ID the ED of the NE Lawyers guild, medics and vets from a stream? Great powers of perception. On the streams I watched, I saw cops using force to clear arm-locked, taunting protesters. Ever seen real police brutality?
I helped storm the Brooklyn Bridge one night in '91 to protest the Gulf War. Cops, by accident or design, let Manhattan-bound cars enter and unwittingly plow into protesters. A few were knocked off the bridge. Self-imposed battles with cops bolster our bravado, seem heroic, and end there.
On 10/1/11, I met an acquaintance who had just climbed over a fence to get onto the Brooklyn Bridge pedestrian lane. She had realized, as hundreds unfortunately hadn't, that she was following a group primed for arrest. She had been a girlfriend of Ted Gold, who blew himself up making a bomb for the Weathermen back in the day. She had disagreed with their approach, although they blew up only property and went to great lengths to not hurt people.
This time is unique. Change that doesn't come with peace is no change at all. The balance of life on our planet approaches a tipping point. Old ways that never worked will never work.
Che Guevara once said over NYC radio that armed revolution might succeed on an island, but couldn't in the continental states. The United States is an extremely well-organized garrison state with many disparate locales, cultures and residents, all subjected to constant media hypnosis. But even with a loss of comfort zone that, so far, barely approaches third-world conditions, Americans are waking up.
Stay with the brilliant marketing logic of the #OWS originators. Keep It Simple: We demand peaceful assembly in public space to protest the growing wealth gap.
This covers everyone, rank-and-file police, even their brass, and even bankers. Scores of banking analysts and associates, and corporate law associates, are losing their jobs as the 1% gets greedier.
Give it time. Stay clear of politics and isms. The Right will demonize and the Left will try to piggyback a thousand agendas. Keep the umbrella and message open for all. The 99% needs the 99%.
Occupiers, may the Force be with you.
fully support rohjo's comment. this website is the first place many people go to in order to check out ows, and posts like this will turn them off. apparently, the post is reporting false facts ("riot gear"), and it uses a completely inappropriate comparison to the laws of war. i don't know what injuries these medics were treating, but i assume they didn't involve gunshot wounds, severed limbs, and the like. arresting these medics might have been an other regrettable decision by the boston police, but to call it "unthinkable" is just a little too inflammatory. also, and that's a more general observation, the authors of this website should recognize that most people who express solidarity with the occupiers down at liberty plaza do not mean that to imply support for a revolution in the sense of general assemblies "taking over" the country "block by block" (in the good old days they were called workers' councils, remember).
Yes, the Boston piece was over the top. But its one mistake. I'm not going to lose faith in the whole movement for this mistake. It does however make for a good target amongst those that want to discredit it.
Glad to hear you're not going to lose faith in the whole movement for one "over the top" piece. Advocating for better site reporting is supporting #OWS for the very reason that, yes, bad reporting does "make for a good target amongst those that want to discredit it."
Of course not, I am in the movement. One of the 99% and recognizer that fact. Need to organize sustained material support for our occupation too... lots of work to do! Hilarious that people call us lazy.
Ironically, it's intellectually lazy people calling us lazy. They don't have the drive to research actual facts and instead rely on lazy emotional arguments and cock-eyed "theories".
Occupiers PLEASE keep calm... The rank and file police will soon realize that they, too, are getting short shrift. Like all public servants they have been demonized by the right wing media types. Eventually, people will begin to understand how the 99% club is under siege and neither political party is taking any action.
Agreed.
Viral pic of alleged OWS "protester" defecating on cop car--Does anyone know if this is one of the homeless guys invited to the park for food or is he a protester? This photog (who neglected to try question the guy-or show his face in additional takes) has a questionable story that needs to be addressed:
http://bearwitnesspictures.blogspot.com/
Here is the photographer's contact info -
stefan@bearwitnesspictures.com
T: +1 646-642-2341
FYI this is an email I just sent to the photographer -doubt I'll get a response, but it was worth a try:
Can you provide the following to support your story on the man seen defecating on the police car near the Occupy Wall Street protests?
Would appreciate a follow-up on your blog with this information-thanks
You are all puppets of george soros and adbusters, anti-semitic idiots. Are you proud that al queda and iran have joined you? Take your protest to washington d.c. they are the ones that made it possible for people like larry summers, tim geitner and bernanke to rape this country. Get a clue!!
And you are nothing more than a puppet of the Koch brothers and Faux News.
The NYPD and the BPD have been systemtically brainwashed. They should seek out lessons from the Phila Police Dept and The DC park police. Those Police chiefs comprehend that to serve and protect you must extend that policy to all people,the 99%. These police chiefs understand who pays their salary....WeThePeople,the 99%! As police chief Ramesy said 'These people have a right to be here"
A better relationship with the police is what is needed in every city. How do you pull it off? Its going to be difficult, but I do not think we should lose sight of our own mission: to liberate the 99%. This holds for our detractors and incarcerators as well. Though they may not understand it, they are in the same boat we are.
They aren't all evil. Consider them misguided and in need of new leadership.
That said keep up the fight Boston. We support you.
These police have family and friends that are in the movement. They are the ones that can reach out and touch the minds of these police officers.
Support the Boston Movement 100%
Keep on going. Fight this corrupt system we have. There is NO excuse for this kind of treatment from police. This HAS GOT TO STOP.
Solidarity against police brutality!
Noone in this movement is asking for money. Demanding justice and acountability and government for the people...all the people!
I currently work from home selling import export goods, granted the economy is horrible. I used to work in the medical industry but it was getting too difficult with fears of getting laid off. Now I am my own boss and I have all the time to read about this occupy issue. According to this blog http://importexporthomestudy.com/import-export-bus/import-export-usa/ it says that exporting goods will help with our trade deficit.
fuck the police............it don't matter what gang your from or who you represent............ it is all our turf............the mob rules ...........take back what is ours
check out this for our them song http://youtu.be/J6BuQcemmtM
Wow! This is exactly what Svali predicted in 1996 (?). I found her interview just a few months before it went down, found on youtube. Imagine!
I would like to send a visual that personifies
what this movement is all about.
The visual is a painting (which is actually a political cartoon).
It depicts a man of wealth, and power standing on top of the public.
My original title was "America's New Kings" but the title can be
changed to Wall Street or Congressmen.
Attached is low image BUT can send a Hi-Rez WHO DO I SUBMIT IT TO ???
You people are an embarrassment to the World. You take control of property that is not yours, break the rules of the property that is not yours, get angry because the OWNERS of the property decide they may enforce the rules you are breaking........ What would you say to OTHERS who might want to come down to the park and use it even though THEIR useage might conflict with yours? Perhaps if THEY decided that YOUR inteference with their useage of the park might result in a few of your protester's heads getting knocked on to make their point.... would the message of your illegal acts get through then? As for your fight against "corporate" greed and Wall St., your ignorance of what makes the economy tick is frightful. If I were in a position to do so, I'd send you a clear message... ALL "corporate" businesses would cease doing business with you. ALL of them. You'd never know what hit you. As for your asinine "demands", should you try to shove them down MY throat, you'd better have your health and life insurance policies paid up. You'd likely need at least one of them. You're nothing but a disgusting bunch of parasites. And that includes the rest of you failures WHEREVER you are. The "Greetings" and "Solidarity" you will encounter with us are those at the end of a baton or bat.
Stand with the 100 turn yourselves in to the police too
I was in prison from 1974 to 1996. I spent the last year of that on work release. One out of 22 years I had a job on the books. My pay was BS, minimum wage. I quit my job two weeks after making parole. As long as my urine was clean and I didn't stick a gun in anyones face I was able to stay on the streets. I had some work off the books but mostly I hustled daily for cash. I'm a low life. I'll take it anyway I can. Then around the middle of 2000 I got an application for a Discover Credit Card in the mail. It just came. I hadn't requested it. It just came? I filled it out telling only a few lies, selfemployed, size of income, own instead of rent. The fools sent me a card with a $5,000 line. Found money. Then a friend of mine told me how it's done. "Dont max it out. Make a few payments and you'll get more cards" By 2001 I had 28 cards. Maxed out, with no way to pay them off. Even If I wanted to. Chapter 11 inevitable. But that was fine. I didn't care. Because I'm a low life.
I was in prison from 1974 to 1996. I spent the last year of that on work release. One out of 22 years I had a job on the books. My pay was BS, minimum wage. I quit my job two weeks after making parole. As long as my urine was clean and I didn't stick a gun in anyones face I was able to stay on the streets. I had some work off the books but mostly I hustled daily for cash. I'm a low life. I'll take it anyway I can. Then around the middle of 2000 I got an application for a Discover Credit Card in the mail. It just came. I hadn't requested it. It just came? I filled it out telling only a few lies, selfemployed, size of income, own instead of rent. The fools sent me a card with a $5,000 line. Found money. Then a friend of mine told me how it's done. "Dont max it out. Make a few payments and you'll get more cards" By 2001 I had 28 cards. Maxed out, with no way to pay them off. Even If I wanted to. Chapter 11 inevitable. But that was fine. I didn't care. Because I'm a low life.
Kleptocrats, Be Warned-- We are mad as hell, and we're just not going to take it anymore!
The police state is created and will continue to expand due to big government and due to the wishes of big corporate. The reason that the banking oligarchs are powerful in the first place. Is due to the federal reserve a private banking institution which creates all money as debt and therefore making us all debt slaves which had to be paid back principal+interest. Due to the government borrowing from the FED to fund its wars and expand its powers. It must pay interest along with the principal therefore the creation of the IRS and income tax. And I have one candidate you can google that will end both the fed and foreign wars. Ron Paul
Stop smoking weed, get a job, take a shower, contribute something useful to society. The 60's are over. Its too bad the Boston PD didn't have some hungry dogs with them. I would feel sorry for the dogs, patchouli probably leaves a bad aftertaste. The 99%, too small to succeed.
You are all intellectual ingrates. You have no idea what or why you are protesting. Most of you are doing so just for the sake of protesting. If you would all go get jobs you could fix all the "problems" you are complaining about. You propose a socialist state. Socialism (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles. In the proposal of a Socialist state you indirectly propose a communist state, which history shows us cannot succeed implemented into a government. As or whoever said OWS wants more democracy, here is a quote of what you want ".CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS. " -coupmedia.org
Thank you OWS, for effectively saying "Screw the Democratic processes which this country is founded on and the same process in which it which it and its people pride themselves. I end with one last quote from and OWS member on this forum.
Free markets = crony capitalism. People are not evolved enough to handle free markets. Deregulation is what leads to crony capitalism.... deregulation = free markets. Same thing. Next time you consider associating yourself with this movement; please consider what it actually stands for.
fuck you all
Love how you all are giving Bloomberg a break. You wouldn't protest outside of his house, because...what was it?...he's not "corporate" enough? Really? Get real--he's a billionaire! Or maybe because he's not kicking you all out of the park? What hypocrisy. You have cost the tax payers in NYC over $2 million dollars in police overtime costs. I feel like coming down there and presenting you with a bill. Because who is going to wind up paying it?---me, that's who. Why don't you start a fund to pay off THAT? And yes, THIS is how you are hurting people- by making us pay for your actions. Funny, just like the people who are protesting. The irony is not lost on me........
Love how you all are giving Bloomberg a break. You wouldn't protest outside of his house, because...what was it?...he's not "corporate" enough? Really? Get real--he's a billionaire! Or maybe because he's not kicking you all out of the park? What hypocrisy. You have cost the tax payers in NYC over $2 million dollars in police overtime costs. I feel like coming down there and presenting you with a bill. Because who is going to wind up paying it?---me, that's who. Why don't you start a fund to pay off THAT? And yes, THIS is how you are hurting people- by making us pay for your actions. Funny, just like the people who are protesting. The irony is not lost on me........
Love how you all are giving Bloomberg a break. You wouldn't protest outside of his house, because...what was it?...he's not "corporate" enough? Really? Get real--he's a billionaire! Or maybe because he's not kicking you all out of the park? What hypocrisy. You have cost the tax payers in NYC over $2 million dollars in police overtime costs. I feel like coming down there and presenting you with a bill. Because who is going to wind up paying it?---me, that's who. Why don't you start a fund to pay off THAT? And yes, THIS is how you are hurting people- by making us pay for your actions. Funny, just like the people who are protesting. The irony is not lost on me........
Love how you all are giving Bloomberg a break. You wouldn't protest outside of his house, because...what was it?...he's not "corporate" enough? Really? Get real--he's a billionaire! Or maybe because he's not kicking you all out of the park? What hypocrisy. You have cost the tax payers in NYC over $2 million dollars in police overtime costs. I feel like coming down there and presenting you with a bill. Because who is going to wind up paying it?---me, that's who. Why don't you start a fund to pay off THAT? And yes, THIS is how you are hurting people- by making us pay for your actions. Funny, just like the people who are protesting. The irony is not lost on me........
Just viewed the October 6th episode of the Daily Show which highlighted the frustration of some of the surrounding businesses regarding the use of public restrooms. McDonald's seems to be giving people the least amount of flack for using the restroom. While it is fair to say that it is a public relations faux pas to use the restrooms of businesses without purchasing food, this dilemma speaks to a broader issue: that lack of public spaces and facilities. What is more important to the integrity of the nation, restaurants or a viable democratic process that upholds the integrity of the rule of law (which has been broken by the major banks with the help of Congress)? The fact that Liberty Park is privately owned and that public spaces for pubic discourse are called into question reflects how much our economic order has undermined the value and intrinsic integrity of We the People...that said, how much is is to rent some portable toilets and showers? It is nothing new for people to behave badly in public places, as those in power have been defecating on the country and the world for at least the past decade, but let us not succumb to these base tactics...clean up after yourself and find alternative means to shit, shower and shave.
Dear Occupy Boston, I am living in Austin, TX watching the events that are unfolding in the northeast and you must know how important and inspiring this movement is and will continue to be for the nation as demonstrations mount around the country. That said, it is curious that the Boston Police Department should have waged ANY level of assault on the protestors, regardless of their affiliation as medics, legal observers, or journalists. They are programmed to believe in the value of a state that is losing it's legitimacy with We the People. Democracy is dying in this great nation and these demonstrations are a sign that it will not die in vain. We do not need a simple jobs bill, or to have the "rich" pay more taxes, though these measures may be crucial in the short term. What we need is a redefinition of wealth, as the simple accumulation of money and goods and the use of services as an economic engine has not proved valuable in improving the quality of life for most Americans. We the People need to have the power to redefine our communities and our local economies so that we can reap the benefits for our hard work, instead of being burdened with wars that make the rich get richer, with tax breaks that promise to bring greater prosperity, when they only bring the greatest disparity. The warmongering that has plagued the world has been carried out under a banner of lawlessness and treason against the real values that make these United States precious and viable...all for the benefit of the elitists (though surely not the elites) who think it is acceptable to reap the wealth of nations, while others offer up their lives, their children and their livelihoods. It is time to shrug off the untenable burden of aristocracy, just like the founders of these United States aimed to do, though this time it will be a more profound refusal of the arbitrary and unconscionable burden of hierarchy that aims to divide and conquer We the People.
There have been posters here who have been trashing the Oath Keepers. At a time like this, I highly suggest that everyone get straight about who the Oath Keepers are (active duty and retired military, sheriffs and police) and what their mission statement is. Pay special attention to #10:
We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
Whoever these posters are who doing the trashing need to stop. It's obvious they know nothing about Oath Keppers or their stated mission to NOT engage in the criminal behavior of the BPD, no matter what orders are given.
I just sent the police there a nasty rant on how they are not part of a democracy and I am embarrassed they are ran by the elite like GE tax dollars, when GE didn't even pay any and gets tax breaks from hiding offshore, so oh actually that means us without lawyers who teach us to cheat taxation like that, actually fund the Boston police, so hey, can't we fire them if we are the ones paying them. What a hideous system this is turning out to be in the end. Go Occupy, come back Bostonians, we all need to join them, all 99% of us against the 1%!
This movement not about bringing down one government to be replaced by another opposing it. It is not about the donkey being replaced by the white elephant or vice versa. What we want is revolutinary change. This movement is about the suffering masses. Its for the masses to come out to show what the system has done to them. The protests have to be massive, widespread and overwhelming. When the protesters themselves and those they are protesting against are convinced that the cause is popular and justified, only then will it be time to work on the alternative system. I don't think we have reached that state yet. How many of the "99%" are out in the streets now?
Meanwhile, the movement has to deal with the problem of success. People. The type of people it attracts will determine whether it is a movement with a serious purpose. If it turns into a carnival/picnic with free booze, drug and sex, that will confirm the critics and the cynics that this is just another "hippie" movement.
The resources. The movement is receiving increasing amount of physical and financial resources through donations. The world is watching whether you can practise what you preach. How are you going to share all these with fairness and without waste?
The finance. The movement is also receiving an increasing amount of money through donations. As the amount grows bigger, the number of people with ill intentions towards it will to. If the fund is embezzled, then the movement will be ridiculed for wanting to change the world when it can't even manage a small fund.
off subject but.. Carnival Cruise Lines made through 2005 - 2009 11.25 billion paid 126 million taxes thats 1.12% Boeing 2004 - 2009 made 17.5 billion paid 796 million in taxes thats 4.6% Ford 2010 3 billion paid 69 million 2.3% Allegheny Energy 2.5 billion paid 58 million Broadcom 1.2 billion paid 41 million 3.32% Nvidia 2005-2009 1.8 billion paid 41 million 2.2% Xcel Energy 4.3 billion paid 77 million 1.78% Amazon 3.5 billion paid 152 million 4.3% Host Hotels 2004 - 2009 1.1 billion paid 34 million 3.05% Conocophilips 16 billion paid 451 million Valero Energy 68 billion got a 157 million tax refund Exxon Mobil paid 0 in taxes alonge with GE who also paid 0 in taxes Google falls in a 2.4% tax bracket and I have saved the best for last Bank Of America 4.4 billion with a 1.9 billion tax refund Goldman Sachs in 2008 pulled 2.3 billion and got a 800 billion tax refund Since 2004 when I started subcontracting i have been paying at least 27% of my income and never got a refund this is the world we live in. if i have to pay so should they.
Goals:
Influence share holders to divest in corporations that pay CEOs and senior executives more than 100 times their lowest paid worker.
Influence all Americans to close accounts at major banks and join credit unions.
Force Congress to pass Fair Trade laws to replace Free Trade laws.
Force Congress to pass term limit legislation, three terms for the House and two terms for the Senate.
Force Congress to make corporate campaign contributions illegal, only US citizens can contribute up to $100 per candidate.
Force Congress to pass the Employee Free Choice Act H.R.1409.
Tea Party arrests in all of time = 0 Occupier arrests in 3 weeks = 800 and counting
CASE CLOSED....
Help end police brutality! View and share this Occupy Wall Street Anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8trPRPiu490
I am amased at how Occupy works. Would like to have your input on the movement to understaqnd it better. I am asking you to answer 10 questions and I am happy to share results if you are interested. Please, take some time for it: Thank you! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q3NF7QB
Business as usual for the police- to protect and serve the politicians. These cops aren't enforcing the laws in place to protect people, they are carrying out policy based on their enjoyment of brutality- the reason why many of them took the job in the first place. Arrests = fines = more money in politicians pockets. Cops get to beat people up, politicians get to thake their money.
so true we hold the keys to the future the sheer number of people who are living in near poverty at best is massive organisation is a key element here and must be established asap
Human beings are not inherently greedy.
Human beings are a product of their environment.
Human beings reflect their environment.
The human race is suffering from a value system disorder.
We, as a society cannot seem to denote wrong from right.
This must change.
The world must evolve.
The government must evolve.
The economic system must evolve.
Peace, Love, and Unity.
You are not 99%. Maybe 40%. Why so dishonest? You do not speak for me.
We need term limits! All congress seems to do is whatever is necessary to get re-elected. They rarely act in the long-term interest of the country. Give them slightly longer terms and a two-term limit. Also, do not have a separate set of rules for congress and everyone else.
One more thing: quit demonizing only the Republican party. This is about the establishment--BOTH parties. The Democrats are controlled by big unions, which is just as bad. One of the worst corporate citizens out there, GE, is in bed with the Obama administration. The entire Federal government and congress is CORRUPT. We need to throw them all out and start over!
The irony of conflict with the BPD is that this protest far and away represent issues of interest to the majority of law enforcement officers throughout the country -- (e.g., collective bargaining rts, the security and sanctity of pensions, access to affordable and quality health care, decent public schools, etc). The other irony is that the demonstrations represent a windfall for individual BPD officers via the additional income they earn through over-time. Bottom line -- the protests support the finanial interests of the BPD in both the abstract and literal sense. Perhaps it would be more effective to communicate the political goals of the movement by discussing our commonalities?
The irony of conflict with the BPD is that this protest far and away represent issues of interest to the majority of law enforcement officers throughout the country -- (e.g., collective bargaining rts, the security and sanctity of pensions, access to affordable and quality health care, decent public schools, etc). The other irony is that the demonstrations represent a windfall for individual BPD officers via the additional income they earn through over-time. Bottom line -- the protests support the finanial interests of the BPD in both the abstract and literal sense. Perhaps it would be more effective to communicate the political goals of the movement by discussing our commonalities?
New Social site for the movement http://www.ioccupy.org
Can someone tell me why America has a "class" system? Weren't the first Europeans who arrived on this soil running from that kind of tyranny in Britain?
CAPITALISM: Feed the hungry,Clothe the naked, Heal the sick, For a Price. What happened to benefiting humanity?? All the benifits of the modern world are available only if you have money. Not everyone gets to go to university....Because there is no money...I dont see inner city kids going to ivyleague schools sitting next to the governors daughter....this is inequality in our country....Best education is a right and not a privilidge...Health care is a right..
CAPITALISM: Feed the hungry,Clothe the naked, Heal the sick, For a Price. What happened to benefiting humanity?? All the benifits of the modern world are available only if you have money. Not everyone gets to go to university....Because there is no money...I dont see inner city kids going to ivyleague schools sitting next to the governors daughter....this is inequality in our country....Best education is a right and not a privilidge...Health care is a right..
CAPITALISM: Feed the hungry,Clothe the naked, Heal the sick, For a Price. What happened to benefiting humanity?? All the benifits of the modern world are available only if you have money....
Why does America have a "class" system anyway? Weren't the Europeans who came here running from that same thing in England?
Why does America have a "class" system anyway? Weren't the Europeans who came here running from that same thing in England?
One concenr: Earlier this years the Tea Party was posed to split the Republican vote and ensure the election of president soso. Now, is the OWS movement going to split the democratic vote and ensure the election of a republican? It would be sad and very disillusioning if THAT were the outcome of all this effort! Those who say that doesn't matter are so off-base I question their intentions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjfhOPCPJnE
"I am not moving" Short Film - Occupy Wall Street
Powerful and should be viewed by all. As a Canadian I stand in solidarity with all Occupy__ (Fill in the blank)!!!
Part of the problem is most people do not even under stand how stocks work. What are we told about it other than things like, well, they placed a bet on something then they turned around and placed a bet on their bet that it won't win, then somebody else places a bet on the bet that had the bet,,,,on and on. And when everybody cashed in the losers (The same ones who also won on the flip side of the bet) turned to the government and said, pay my debt, with the working peoples tax dallors. They like it this way, they like people being in the dark about how their criminal organization works. Remember even during the height of the wall street crash, as much as they would tell us, is it's too complicated to explain,,,excuse me? Then they even went on to say, it's is so complicated that even they didn't know how it worked,,,what? But isn't it such a stroke of luck that they came out of it smelling like a rose, their vaults filled to the brim and the average person wallowing in bankruptcy. My My what a stroke of luck for people that didn't know what they were doing. LIARS LIARS LIARS.
Warren Buffet is just as greedy and crappy as the goons in Big Banks regardless of what he says publicly, I have seen how companies of his operate from the inside and watched greedy for a bonus executives shut down a plant that had kept the company afloat by working nights / weekends and excessive overtime after a massive fire destroyed the main production facility. To repay the US workers for dedicating their lives to the company for 30 plus years they gave them nothing except a 90 day warn period required by law when shutting a facility down in New York. If the dedicated employees left during the 90 day warn period they got nothing. Then that same year I saw bonuses get paid to the top 5 executives of the Berkshire Hathaway Subsidiary that total more than 10 times what the proposed severance would have been for over 35 people. Warren Buffets company’s actions speak louder than the lip service provided to Americans through the media. I am fed up with the greed and corruption in corporate America, Warren Buffet talks a great game but his company is only focused on one thing and one thing only…. The Bottom line! I am full support of the Occupy Wall Street Movement and wish I could be there. Thank you to all Occupy Wall Street protesters for doing what I am not able!!!!!
Warren Buffet is just as greedy and crappy as the goons in Big Banks regardless of what he says publicly, I have seen how companies of his operate from the inside and watched greedy for a bonus executives shut down a plant that had kept the company afloat by working nights / weekends and excessive overtime after a massive fire destroyed the main production facility. To repay the US workers for dedicating their lives to the company for 30 plus years they gave them nothing except a 90 day warn period required by law when shutting a facility down in New York. If the dedicated employees left during the 90 day warn period they got nothing. Then that same year I saw bonuses get paid to the top 5 executives of the Berkshire Hathaway Subsidiary that total more than 10 times what the proposed severance would have been for over 35 people. Warren Buffets company’s actions speak louder than the lip service provided to Americans through the media. I am fed up with the greed and corruption in corporate America, Warren Buffet talks a great game but his company is only focused on one thing and one thing only…. The Bottom line! I am full support of the Occupy Wall Street Movement and wish I could be there. Thank you to all Occupy Wall Street protesters for doing what I am not able!!!!!
I would love to have more political parties to vote for and a direct voting system.
I would love to have more political parties to vote for and a direct voting system.
The right to protest does not give the right to destroy property, which was the reason for their eviction. Dishonesty and disrespect will win you no friends, only enemies.
Please, call 1-800-718-1008, the national switch board, and ask your congres people to vote NO for FTAs. I know that many people here would not think that we can affect much working with Congress in its current state. But that doesn't mean that Congress doesn't affect the world. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q7NOY8Axf4 The vote is today! Call
Greetings from Brazil guys! Many people here in Brazil is supporting your initiative in this movement, our press / media is also not clearly disclosing the events of the movement of you out there in the United States of America, because here we are also experiencing problems such as unemployment, corruption, embezzlement of public funds ....
We know that our government is concerned that there is here a single initiative, so it is slowing down the spread of Occupy's that are happening.
Sorry for my poor English, but I come here to say that I support this movement immensely!
Always fighting, never give up!
Stay strong Boston
GET BUSINESS OUT OF GOVERNMENT. The voice of the people will not be heard as long as money makes the merry go round go round.
well..the system is sowing its TRUE face now !
I love Brooksley Born and Elizabeth Warren.
I turn on my television and there is program after program of extremist right wingers bull horning their views in every living room in America, I get in my car and turn on the radio and there is program after program of extremist right wingers bull horning their hate, viterol and anti democratic propaganda into every car in America. Everywhere we look or listen we are bombarded by their 24/7 bull horning, But the average citizens in the street simply wishing for their voice to be heard aren't "allowed" to speak through a bullhorn?
I love Elizabeth Warren and Brooksley Born.
I am amased at how Occupy works and would like to have your input on the movement to understaqnd it better. Can you answer 10 questions, please. I am happy to send results if you are interested. Thank you! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q3NF7QB
F*** Police Brutality!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smFVm7UIjbg
By the politically active Anti-Flag, who vocally support OWS!
My heart goes out to you, freedom fighters.
You must ask yourself, could I run for President of the United States? The resounding answer is no for the 99%. You more than likely cannot raise the requisite millions of dollars to buy your place on the ballot. The only way to raise the necessary funds is to attract corporate sponsors to assist in your campaign. When *sponsors" funnel that kind of money your way, they usually want something in return. So, in short, who is running/ruining this country; FOLLOW THE MONEY!
This can never stop!!! as long as wall street is occupied main stream media cannot just sweep it under the rug as so much has in the past. I would love to see a reformist movement spread to the American Congress. America was once THE beacon of justice and freedom the world over how the mighty has fallen
It is time for Corporations to pay real taxes. Here is a proposal:
http://wordsofwhizdumb.blogspot.com/2011/09/taxing-my-patience.html
It is time for Corporations to pay real taxes. Here is a proposal:
http://wordsofwhizdumb.blogspot.com/2011/09/taxing-my-patience.html
all of bloggers are with you in all ower the world http://endofdevil.mihanblog.com/
Is there any way to check and see if both the Dems and Rep receive donations from the same companies? I do not think its possible with our current system of campaign funding. I think unless a candidate can prove they have not received large campaign contributions from corporate sponsors we should not vote for them. Maybe we should do like Puerto Rico did in1999 and vote "none of the above" How many times have you voted for the lesser of two evils? If 99% of the population wrote in their vote and "none of the above" won maybe the people in power would realize how fed up we are. The original tea party was about taxation without representation. It seems the only people being represented these days are people that can donate large sums of money to campaigns. Anybody wonder what happens to that money. It is laundered through television time and print advertisements back to the 7 corporations that own 90% of media outlets. Do these corporations really want campaign finance reform. The corporations make their money no matter who wins. Result of this poltical evironment. Soaring company profits - falling median wage.
Vote "None of the above"
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Folllow your right to peaceful protests
Whoa!!! Time to get back on track. Ignore the trolls, they just detract from the topic. We really need to be focusing on coming up with a peaceful and powerful solution to this police brutality. Hopefully Anonymous has our backs on this one. I love seeing them stick it to them. Last time, Tony Bologne's personal information was posted online. Maybe these cops will get the same treatment. When we find these cops home address, we occupy their property and make it impossible for them to go to work. Just a though.
This is what collectivism looks like. It is scary. We have seen it before, and it does not end well. You folks chanting everything with the bullhorn dude - you are on a path to hell. Get a grip. Get a plan. Get a job. Get a life.
Onward to freedom from corporate tyranny via an end to apathy! Over the past decades, we have poured money into too many solitary pockets and contributed to the growth of large corporate monsters that, like Godzilla, now eat us alive. Rather than spread our monetary manure so that our economy could be fertilized to the benefit of all, we have dumped it into small concentrated piles that now stink. The oil companies dominate our political scene, even to the point of influencing our wars and deaths. But who buys the gas and uses the oil without complaining about where it comes from and what the profits are used for? Who sits back and allows the oil conglomerates to quell any real attempts at alternative energy? The corporate world may hold the power, but we gave it to them, or at least we allowed them to seize it with little, if any protest. Apathy. Demonstrations are a good way of making a statement, but we need a forum and organization, as well as pressure on the members of Congress who hold the power and make the decisions. The power is still in the hands of the people if we are intelligent enough to use it. We need to sit down and get our views and gripes to the people who can make a difference, our representative politicians, and react to their job performance by voting them in or out of office. If we don’t care, they will care less. The results of our apathy are evident for all to see – corporate tyranny in full force, mass unemployment, seemingly never-ending impending recession and a sense of hopelessness and despair. Are we brave enough to rise up and confront the issue, or will we sink back to our sofas and wait for “somebody” to come along and fix it all? That is the question. The Occupiers are out there igniting the movement. Organization will be the key to success.
Onward to freedom from corporate tyranny via an end to apathy! Over the past decades, we have poured money into too many solitary pockets and contributed to the growth of large corporate monsters that, like Godzilla, now eat us alive. Rather than spread our monetary manure so that our economy could be fertilized to the benefit of all, we have dumped it into small concentrated piles that now stink. The oil companies dominate our political scene, even to the point of influencing our wars and deaths. But who buys the gas and uses the oil without complaining about where it comes from and what the profits are used for? Who sits back and allows the oil conglomerates to quell any real attempts at alternative energy? The corporate world may hold the power, but we gave it to them, or at least we allowed them to seize it with little, if any protest. Apathy. Demonstrations are a good way of making a statement, but we need a forum and organization, as well as pressure on the members of Congress who hold the power and make the decisions. The power is still in the hands of the people if we are intelligent enough to use it. We need to sit down and get our views and gripes to the people who can make a difference, our representative politicians, and react to their job performance by voting them in or out of office. If we don’t care, they will care less. The results of our apathy are evident for all to see – corporate tyranny in full force, mass unemployment, seemingly never-ending impending recession and a sense of hopelessness and despair. Are we brave enough to rise up and confront the issue, or will we sink back to our sofas and wait for “somebody” to come along and fix it all? That is the question. The Occupiers are out there igniting the movement. Organization will be the key to success.
When students at my alma mater were protesting the War in Iraq, it was the campus police who they first had to confront. Many of the students dismissed the rough actions of the police, as "they were just doing their job." This is not an excuse. If one's "job" is to brutalize people who are exercising their civil and democratic rights, then you should not be gainfully employed in Democratic society. If your job is to maintain the peace and order of society, then these cops should be arresting and ransacking the homes of the people who have laid waste to the global economy. The police have choices and they are choosing to suppress the voices of We the People...this cannot bode well for the future of the nation, or the people of the United States of America.
Wall street will be losing jobs not because of the people, economy or protests, it is because they are increasingly computerizing trades and other tasks. The rich are turning our jobs over to robots to increase their wealth!
North America better stop whining, and start working and producing something other than virtual money or they will be in worse #$%& than they are now.. I moved to China four years ago from Canada and haven't looked back. Economy is great (hmmm where did all the jobs come from, I wonder?), the work ethic puts anything in North American to shame, they are graduating more engineers per capita than any other country, the weather is wonderful, the cost of living is 1/6 of where I came from and politics is a non-issue (unless you want to whine about human rights and the environment and other stuff ) Life is too short to spend it on the street carrying a sign about how bad life is. Life is what you make it. It is not anybody else's fault for where you ended up in the big scheme of things.
Digital democracy proposal from the 15-M Spanish Revolution. Three viable proposals of direct participation essential for citizens to recover the sovereignty that politicians are not giving them.
A system of PERMANENT PLEBISCITE of the citizens additional to or substitutive of Congress, Senate, Autonomies, City councils…, using computers to vote with confidential identification, one citizen one vote. A system to veto laws and decisions of the politicians which are not accepted by the citizens.
A system of REVOCATION OF POLITICIANS BY PLEBISCITE, also by computer, to vote for permanent control of elected political authorities, councilmen, etc… so they can be dismissed immediately when they lose the confidence of the citizens, expressed by means of permanent votes.
A system of CITIZEN’S INITIATIVES WITH PLEBISCITE, to pass citizen´s initiatives through computers by all citizens, to be approved without the politicians being able to prevent it only with their votes.
It is not the 99%. If the US has 312,348,000 inhabitants and the protest is against the 400 richest, then the aproximate percentage of the rich 0.000001275 and the percentage of protesters is 99.999998725.
Digital democracy proposal from the 15-M Spanish Revolution
A system of PERMANENT PLEBISCITE of the citizens additional to or substitutive of Congress, Senate, Autonomies, City councils…, using computers to vote with confidential identification, one citizen one vote. A system to veto laws and decisions of the politicians which are not accepted by the citizens.
A system of REVOCATION OF POLITICAL DECISSIONS BY PLEBISCITE, also by computer to vote for permanent control of citizens of elected political authorities, councilmen, etc… so they can be dismissed immediately when they lose the confidence of the citizens expressed by means of permanent votes.
A system of CITIZEN’S INITIATIVE WITH PLEBISCITE, to pass citizen´s initiatives with computers by all citizens to be approved without the politicians being able to prevent it only with their votes. Three viable proposals of direct participation demanded as essential for citizens to recover the sovereignty that politicians are not giving them.
You are the real heroes of the world.
Do not worry O! policemen,disobey the orders of the so called governments ,let us govern together,people shall pay you the salaries,just be with us,it shall just take a few months to overthrow the governments.Above all the people at present at the helm of affairs shall after all find us right.Then why should they lose face.
People of the world are ready to overthrow capitalism at all costs.
http://wearemany.org
Everyone should make a conscious effort to boycott the goods and services of large multinationals in favor of local goods and services where possible.
Support your local bookstore, not Amazon. Seek out locally made toys for your children instead of going to Toys'r'us. Buy clothes made in your country. Borrow money from your Credit Union, not a big bank. Exchange goods and services with others, use less money. Get to know your neighbours - fight isolation. Grow your own food. Find a local mechanic, don't use large service companies. Walk and cycle more. Use public transport. Get out and meet each other.
Excellent job OWS! It is truly the system that requires changing. Politics, Corruption, Inequality and abrogation of Human rights are all just symptoms of a broken system. We need to really work together (competition is very wasteful) and stop the degradation of our environment and society. I believe that basing our joint actions on the actual resources of the planet (the Resource-Based economy or RBE) is the next step for us as a single race. Love and Peace Alastair
The media (Krauthammer) has labeled you as "indignant indolents". Those are wrathful, passionate, and irate people that are feeling wrath or exasperation from unworthy or unjust treatment such as a mean action that indulge in ease; avoid labor and exertion and are habitually idle, lazy, and inactive.
I don't see that.
What about an idle, irresponsible, and all too silent "main stream media" that said nothing in Jan. of 1999 when the chief economist of the United States told the senate that, "He doesn't trust them because they lie and they are putting the public's retirements at risk"? That was only seen on Cspan.
What about an irresponsible media that doesn't want to pay their fair share of taxes while they invest their money in China? They are the ones avoiding their responsibilities in this matter.
Mean actions:
stealing the middle class's corporate pension funds, sending the middle classes jobs over seas for a generation, plundering the public's "trust funds" to deceitfully make deficits look smaller, repeatedly lying to the public, voting for wars without paying taxes to pay for them, laying off people and hiring them back without any benefits at reduced salaries, and enslaving a nation with high levels of federal debt while the wealthy avoid taxation on capital gains, income, and their estates.
The Warren Buffet rule is relevant.
When the rich pay less tax then their secretaries, the rich are rubbing their irresponsibility and greed into the public's faces.
we are with you in Sabah, Malaysia. Keep up the fight. We know this is for us too. thank you.
When the US erupted in the wake of the Kent St. murders in 1970 the powers-that-be took stock and realized that their violence only brought more people into the streets. They changed tactics. Suddenly it was bread and circuses and most of the people of the US were lulled asleep in front of their TVs. Today's powers-that-be have forgotten that lesson and/or believe in their hubris that they are invincible. I wish I could be with you. In solidarity from Slovenia, Thomas--65 years old and moved to tears by your commitment and your courage
Keep on committing crimes, and civil disobedience, Please. It makes you "look" so reasonable. Nixon was able to be elected with the anti war protests help. Keep up the good work. You just are making it easier for Cain or Romney to be elected. Also a Super Majority in the House and Senate for the republicans. Keep supporting people who disobey police rules, then require being arrested to return order. Keep it up. You doom yourselves with every bad photo, every defecation in public, every drunk and druggy, every nut and union thug. They make you look worse and worse every day, and you drive away more and more who may have sympathized with you. Keep up the GOOD work.
P.S. I have an idea for you, get even MORE communist groups, dictators (Venezuela and Iran's leaders support you), anarchists, unions, democrats to support you. It will REALLY show where you come from and what you believe.
In a strange way, I feel sorry for those that have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of Americans are lazy, good-for-nothing complainers. I would think that there would be some shred of national pride left for the great people that make up this country. I've been reading these posts for over an hour, seeing a pointless argument grow between opinionated and in some cases, very informed people. My question is why is it so difficult to see that no matter how you slice this economic situation, the top 1 percent have been manipulating the system to protect and grow their own endeavors. While tending to and protecting your endeavors is at it's base a very American and noble act, manipulating legislation and using unscrupulous tactics to extract benefit from others is everything that we DO NOT stand for. Argue if you must that the people are lazy. Argue if you must that we should live in earthen homes and yesterday's dilapidated husk of a structure to avoid exceeding our means. I will not leave for my children an example of burrowing and accepting the scraps left over from the fortunate few. I have seen the exodus of entire towns due to the irresponsibility of corporate leaders. I have seen educated men and women struggling to complete their degrees because they have been deemed "unworthy" to receive financial aid. I live in a state where tuition has increased from 1500 to 3000 a semester in the time it takes to complete a bachelor's degree. That may not be much to the Ivy league elite, but where I come from that can determine whether or not you drop out and become one of the "lazy, good-for-nothing, 99%." I'm not going to ask god to bless anyone, I'm not going to scream out in support for anyone, I'm just asking all of you to reflect for a moment on what it is to be an American. I'm not proud of and do not condone the violence that has occurred, nor do I believe that all protesters were acting in accordance with local laws. We all have certain inalienable rights, and we all deserve to have a voice when those rights seem to have been manipulated. One cannot shake the feeling that something is not right. Let's not criminalize and criticize those that, although maybe not always the most informed, but the most active and willing to stand up in the name of our most beloved ideals: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Let us pursue those that would take our happiness, and criticize those that cast empty accusations at the citizenry. I don't believe I'm the only one that feels like our future is at stake.
The elite .1% nearly always become smug in their positions which generally were attained legally but under favored positions and government insiders. Once wealth attains a certain level, it automatically accumulates to even greater money and control. They feel like they do not have to concern themselves with any social responsibility. Donating a few 10's of million dollars is a pittance to a lot of these titans but it lets them appear to be civic minded. This fools a lot of casual observers. Noone wants their heads on a pike. Just give them zero control of the political process.
祝你们革命成功 ~!
The police are brain-washed. They are the 99%, even if they're taking orders. It's just become that bad. That is what a police state is: a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. That population includes the police. They're completely brain-washed, along with bankers, top-level executives, and politicians. Saturated with power and wealth and the puppet reinforcement of some outdated ideas of justice. Consider: there is no 99%. There is 100%. There is just us (justice). We are all here. We are all human (not to discount all other lifeforms struggling as well). We are all part of this population. It's just gotten to the point where the few in power are so lost, and in our loss, we struggle trying to wake them and ourselves back up. This is, by no means, defeatist, but pragmatic. Let us be even more creative in how we approach "our enemies" and respect all as friends and neighbors. Stand tall Bostonians. Your ground is where the fight began... perhaps why the police are a bit harder and more jaded.
Boycott the corporations! Ditch cable TV and att and verizon contract plans and overpriced phones. The FCC is bought and paid for by these companies. Vote with your dollars. Occupy! Hit them where it hurts!
New York Times online front page article says 100 were arrested in Boston, but a caption to a photograph says it's 1000.
Sure would be nice if people could start talking civilly on these forums and understand that we are all Citizens of The United States of America.
We could accomplish a lot if we started working together and stopped demonizing people with different philosophies or political affiliations.
Here is the official Occupy Wall Street Response: http://tiklar.com/news/occupy-wall-street-declaration-response-united-states-72
I agree that the laws have to change to protect the people and the nation from the "do as you damn well please" free market enterprise. You would think we had learned a hard lesson of what not to do and make the correction to prevent it from happening again. Good Luck!
I believe there is a plan to break the 99% down to total dependence of the wealthy and political Class............. this is a class War and it is Global.
On the brink of what was well on its way to a complete fascist state that the elite were creating for their empire, in future generations they will look back at what began in the month of September of 2011 and say that's when it all changed, and truly take pride in saying this is now the land of the free and truly home of the bravest!!
I hope this movement does not get completely out of hand and people decide to take it upon themselves to rape, pillage, attack, and murder each other...this movement needs to remain focused on the primary problem. A NEW deal needs to get done, the middle class needs to comeback from oblivion. What the hell kind of lives will our children have in 10-20 years if 2 working adults in a household can't make ends meet now? I support Occupy!
I never have understood why the police go after those who are most like them, "ordinary" folks like you and me.
Well, it's a job I guess....in this case a distasteful one.
Don't they know that they are as screwed as you and me?
Clue them in....shower them with flowers and information
Bring them over
it has happened before
Remember '68!!!
stay friendly, stay peaceful and stay focused!
this is the PSYCHOPATHIC BREAKDOWN of the fascist rulers the tyranny we live under. we the 99% demand our democracy back and we are here to take it back. the battle for hearts minds truth and power is here on the streets. give us our country back. stop brutalising us sith your BS
The Police in Boston decided to take a different tack. Obviously, they do not want this Protest to grow there as well. No doubt they talked about how they would respond to the protestors. I think they are experimenting with different tactics to see what is most effective in discouraging the protestors here and nationwide. It is a damn shame, the police, who should be supporting us, are caught between doing their duty as ordered or maybe getting in trouble or fired. Tough choice for them. But, there is no reason for violence. That tells me these police are Conservative Catholics and maybe Irish. They are ignorant and don't understand something like this. Either that, or their superiors gave them a talk about how they had to be rough with protestors. I have been involved in many protests in different parts of the country and one strategy the police use: is to come down very hard to try and send a message to anyone who is thinking of joining and expanding the protest. I have a suggestion, next time, get women, especially the older mixed in or, preferably leading the protests. The women could all be dressed up in some costume. Or, a totally different tactic. Go patriotic. Have a Fife and drum with someone holding the flag. But real musicians here who can play Yankee Doodle. have a drum core behind, this can be your normal drummers although if they are going to march they need straps to hold their drums. Have protest signs saying things like: We want a piece of the pie! We want a part of the American Dream. Fairness & Common Sense. Stay away from the communist stuff. Those who profess to want communism fall into three categories: the poorly educated, the ideologues who represent the archaic Communists of the past, and young, idealistic, naive types who have all kinds of ideas about communism (including Biblical). Also, any communist stuff turns off the typical American. Communism to them is associated with Communist Russia & China (both which are capitalist oriented today although totally different versions). Regarding the police, each city functions differently. I understand protestors thus far have been treated well by the LAPD which is weird considering the reputation of LAPD> If we play this right, the Police Unions might join us. We need to ally with Unions of all kinds, the unemployed, the college kids, the young and dispossessed, and anybody else who wants to be a part.
According to John Williams of shadowstats.com, after you add in all short-term discouraged workers, all long-term discouraged workers and all Americans that are working part-time because they cannot find full-time employment, the real unemployment rate should be approximately 23 percent.
that is 1 in 4 Americans who are unemployed.
For equality and Socializm! Solidarity and Greetings from Russia!
Just curious, what do y'all hope to gain from this protest?
our democratic system restored
Sending food to your UPS Store account. Keep at it. You kids shame us. Keep at it.
I'm a follower of the ows movement, and ive been truly inspired as to see the slave wagers stand up and provide a voice for all who are sick of this retarded development of a society. As far as people putting themselves in debt, it is true we sleep on the bed we make, though so many are persuaded in such debt, it is the bait and strategy that we as a whole are intended to fail upon. Many can not live a life of luxury, though we are sold into wanting such a life, not only sold but brainwashed and you wouldn't even realize how brainwashed you are until you sit and analyze your senseless life styles. Isn't the American dream about having your piece of real estate that you can call your own, and shootig down any man, or government who try's to take that away? Isn't the American dream about raising your kids, and not being such a slave wager that you have someone else raise them, the traditions and custums which had been passed down your blood line are dissipating if they have not already done so. We are looked down upon as numbers, machines. This voice of ours is our cry to say were not your robots, we want our piece of real estate bich now get the fk off our property. Ill never be a slave, I'll never buy into another mans sales pitch.
Wow, I love it. It is not well said but damn it -- it is spot on. Thank you.
POLL: What question would you most like to hear the answer to in the GOP debates? http://www.wepolls.com/p/3639515
We could balance the budget by ending the wars and cutting military spending on the majority of foreign occupations (all of which are unnecessary in national defense), and save over $300 billion per year. And even with deep cuts such as this we would still have more resources in our military than the next three largest militaries in the world combined. Since we can maintain our military supremacy despite draconian cutbacks to military programs, why aren't we doing so?
I stopped by Monument Square on Sunday with my 15 year old daughter so that she could come to her own decision about what you are doing. We are a family of 3, earning $40k, and I can assure you that the disgusting 6 to 10 people that were there at 1pm or so, in no way reflected anybody I know! We are educated and well read, and I was terribly dissappointed for my daughter who was excited to maybe have a chance to discuss some ideas with people. The whole “mike check” and repeating of things when there was less than a dozen people was typical of the mental state of your pathetic, loser gathering. The bare breasted painted women were a nice touch to show the depth of your sincerity.Your protests are mindless banter about nothing except that "Rich Bad, Poor Screwed", what a novel thought. Thank God you are around to explain life to us! Grow up. Life isn't easy, but it sure is grand!
Monument Square in Portland, Me.
Dunno what to say. Went to the occupation in my town to provide support - material and spiritual - and was impressed by the diverse mix of people, and the level of conversation we were able to have. I'm in Oakland, California - same town where my family settled in the 1800's.
I also feel your pain. I've been supporting a family of three soon to be four out here on the same amount (where cost of living is very high). I made the mistake of wanting to improve the real world, designing and installing outdoor educational environments in public schools instead of making my fortune in tech (which I left a decade ago). I feel good about what I am doing. But I don't understand why our society undervalues work which improves your community yet overvalues the ethereal and the exploitative. Anyway good luck to you.
I've seen the wicked fruit of your vine Destroy the man who lacks a strong mind Human pride sings a vengeful song Inspired by the times you've been walked on My stage is shared by many millions Who lift their hands up high because they feel this We are one We are strong The more you hold us down the more we press on (What if?/ Creed/ Human Clay)
guys, you are a bit off on thr Geneva conventions. They do not apply here as this is neither an armed conflict nor a war and the police are not armed forces. Focus on the things you are right as statements like this will get you ridiculised and will get you ignored.
Agree.
Even though I cannot be there with you, know that I am one of the 99% and I am so proud of everyone of you. You are doing the work that needs to be done to better our lives and you are making a difference. You are putting into words all the things I have been feeling for the last 11 years. So many things started going wrong all at once and in so many different directions, it's hard even now to list them all. But thanks to you, I feel like the world is righting itself again and all of us can be heard over the bullhorn used by Fox News and Limbaugh and the other crazy talk radio morons. Keep strong and don't let the power hungry, money grubbers get you down. They have nothing as valuable as your courage in speaking truth to the powerful!
When will the United Nations step in to investigate Human Rights Violations committed by the United States government upon civilians. There are a lot of us speaking out all over the world to support change in the U.S. in a non-violent protest. http://rweaver74.blogspot.com/
NYC Labor Against the War 10.11 Occupy Wall Street Report: Global Spring http://nyclaw01.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/10-11-occupy-wall-street-report-global-spring/
Short video I took today at the camp. Hope people who can't be there like it. http://youtu.be/Zjx3J9YipDE
I don't know if you dudes over in America have them, but here in the U.K we have a fairly recent invention called the "job recruitment agency".
These parasitic enitities are basically the final step in the completely 'free-labor' solution.
corporations use them to hire workers, and via these agencies the last remnants of worker-rights are removed (i.e people can be hired-fired at little to no notice, and given minimum wage for their troubles).
Not only that, they provide an escape route for corporations to upsticks and move to more desirable locales as they have no responsibility/ties to the workers they employ.
There was an increasingly growing ratio of them as of time of writing (about 30-40% of jobs here are via agencies), and recently if you did not sign up to these agencies you would be in danger of losing any job seeking benefits you may be entitled to.
This is wrong.
As a human-being i feel we all want to be a part of society and contribute our part towards something good in society, in that respect i want to work and would work any hours, in pretty much any job, but i want to contribute towards something useful to society and not to the vested interests of a few select people. I don't think this is wrong thinking.
There are almost no real worker protections in this country when working for private enterprise. So the situation you describe is basically what we have here if you work for private enterprise. Our employment is at will. Employers have enough excuses that they can let you go whenever they feel like it.
The Formula
The banks have a simple formula that has served the m well over the milenia
Fund both sides of an equation, bet on loss, wait till an economy crashes, then buy up a nations assets for minimum price. Including putting in place a federal reserve and lending a nation its own money at interest and you have the formula.
Example:
Goldman Sachs Contributs heavily to both republicans and democrats Manipulated and profited from:
Doc Com Crash Oil Market Rise and Crash Housing Crisis
What are they looking into now? The green economy...
See Mark Taibbi's Rolling Stone Article
Part of the formula is to ensure you control the media so that you can manipulate the collective psychology of a nation.
6 Companies control nearly all media in the United States
The world as you know it is much like a tour, where your every step is plotted and controlled but it is a fascade. Much like Intourist in the Soviet and North Korea, you only follow the path you are programmed to follow.
Think about when you travel.
From the plane there is a sign to baggage claim, then to transportation.
The bus takes you to the rental car, which has a line and signs leading you.
The car has a GPS that leads you to your hotel
The hotel has a line and signs to lead you to your room.
No room for exploration or the unexpected.
You are born, measured, vaccinated and documented (like merchandise from a ship)
You go to school where your every move is scripted and controlled.
You go to a cubical job where your days are the same.
You take prozac or zoloft and whatever it takes to survive your lack of freedom.
You watch TV and football to distract yourself from the fact that you know your world is wrong somehow.
You go to the nursing home / hospital where you are moved, follow lines and signs and controlled until you die. You are not free.
The walls of this prison are not made of stone, they are made of fear.
Fear of losing:
Your home Your car, jewlery, electronics Your football or distractions Your children Your retirement (already lost) Your illusion of power (if you are a politician) Your control (illusion) Your place in the vast machine
And because of this fear you have lost that which is most precious, that which provides you all the above. Your freedom. Your mind. Your soul.
Let go of fear and embrace your freedom. There is nothing to lose because you already have nothing.
There will be more,
Diogenes The 99
http://diogenesthe99.blogspot.com
hey, we stand by those who fight against the divide. The one thing that I worry about is that this becomes a fight against democracy. What's scary is the way that capitalism and democracy are being mashed into one. Isn't it possible to have the democratic government regulate the distribution of wealth more? Can't we make laws against lobbying (aka bribing)?
Just some thoughts...
thanks for your comments 13erlart, I think you speak for many who think this is a protest against everything - it's not. It's about trying to get our democracy back - from the plutocrats. And capitalism (or let's just say greed) I'm ok with as a motivating force, you're never going to get rid of it any way. What I have a problem with are these insane free marketers who think that the marketplace is a just arbiter of the value of all things - it's not - precicely because people ARE greedy. Those things of value to all people (water, education, military, democratic voice, healthcare) have to remain in the hands of the commons - because privitization will only allow corruptionof those in ownership against the needs of the common good. What we have right now is the privaitization of our democratic voice. The rich have bought it - and told us how good it will be- except of course it not. The 99% are all in a race to the bottom, because we refuse as a culture to believe that greed isn't good. It's incredible but true. Laws against lobbying would simply deny our representatives vital information that many have for them. The problem with lobbying is that the lobbyist are also front people for money. How are you going to get re-elected if you don't listen and invite the monied or their front people to your table? we have to get rid of the need for money to get elected. It not only corrupts, it enormously diminishes the candidate pool of those who can seek office or want to under such repellent conditions.
Please stand firm, protesters! This whole country needs you, whether they realize it or not!
Mayor of Phila gave permits, is for protests, and is televising a game for all to see tonight outside city hall. How is that for support, yeah Philadelphia, expecting rain you guys stay safe and warm, and ignore those posters that resemble Coporations, who are people too, and other close minded individuals. We support and will grow. Thanks all of you.
Amazing. Thank you from an inspired American living in Berlin.
I totally support the Occupy Wall Street cause, but when the police tell you to move on, don't make trouble. The BPD had made accommodations for protestors and allows them to camp at one site, so why cause trouble and risk turning the public against you by being unreasonable.
Playing nice is a good way to be ignored. That and the situation is not as simple as you make it appear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu63e7QD_5k
we need more video records
in response to all the "get a job" comments, i would quote one of the worlds most well known, and respected thinkers, Albert Einstein's 1949 essay - Why Socialism?
"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.
For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call “workers” all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is “free,” what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists’ requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.
Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights."
wow - I am starting to feel pretty smart now! thanks for sharing that somerandom.
Shh... we socialists are supposed to be idiots with no connection to reality. Don't go confusing people by pointing out that people such as Albert Einstein or George Orwell are among the ranks of our thinkers.
Socialism only works if everyone wants it and unfortunately that can be seen as a Utopian view. Despite Albert Einstein or George Orwell having those thoughts does not mean they are legitimate, a genius can be wrong too.
For some types of socialism, especially when you get into lines of thought like communism and anarchism, you are correct. Incidentally, this is part of why I consider communism to be so potentially dangerous -- when a system depends upon everyone agreeing upon it to work, it becomes necessary to purge those that dissent.
But you must understand, socialism is not a monolithic bloc of thought. There are many varieties, some of which are highly critical of others. The strain of thought I am advocating, the type promoted by Einstein and Orwell, is known as social democracy/democratic socialism. These systems do not depend upon everyone wanting socialism anymore than a capitalist society is dependent upon everyone wanting capitalism. Instead, they recognize the need for mixed economies like the ones we have already. There is plenty of room for private enterprise. The primary difference is that the free market is not seen as something sacred and is not depended upon for services better handled through centralized government.
Geniuses can be wrong, but I personally would be very hesitant to outright dismiss them on matters about which they've given quite a lot of thought. Einstein wrote an article called "Why Socialism" that you can check out at http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism. He even goes into why it is appropriate for a scientist such as himself to give his opinions on economic matters. Good reading.
Glenn Beck thinks he's smarter than Einstein. Of course "Glenn Beck thinks" is an oxymoron. And Glenn Beck is just a moron.
Don't shush me sonny jim! ;) Haha i hear what ya saying tho fella.
Nah, I'd never REALLY shush ya. ;)
What are you guys going to do when it gets cold and starts snowing?
The wider community will support them because we need this movement to continue.
Perhaps defining a few parameters before entering into a discussion will help here. And breaking down a few quite frankly wrong/false associations.
Communism is bad.
Communism in its purest/rawest form is not bad, it suggests a community of individuals working together for a greater good.
When people say look at russia/china e.t.c what they fail to realise is that such places are not and probably never have been 'communist'.
These so called 'communist' states are in reality actually an example of capitalism in its purest sense. I.e a dictator/chairman e.t.c who has vested interests.
It is through these false/wrong associations over the years in various forms, that people begin to dis-associate with 'communism' because of a falsely association stigma attached to the word. They begin to dis-associate with a cause that is beneficial to them .
It is through this method of taking something good and trying to undermine/wrongly associate through press/literature e.t.c that a form of control is implemented.
I saw another wrong association earlier i'm not sure who posted it, but felt the need to clear this matter up. I believe it was something along the lines of...socialists don't believe in helping the poor man have his fair share, they just believe in bringing down the wealth of the rich.
O.k so lets analyse this comment for a moment, as it is propoganda essentially and an effort to spread wrong/false association.
So the author of that comment intended to try and undermine/wrongly associate a word like socialism...i.e being part of a society, working together as a society rather than as an individual. e.t.c by appending the above false association to the word. I for one will not accept this statement, It is false logic.
Socialists believe in a society as a whole therefore they would be equally set on increasing the poor mans lifestyle, as decreasing the rich mans lifestyle. And in finding an equilibrium for us to exist in our society as well as, as an individual.
Let us take another false association that has been made through the aeons.
Communism will result in everybody being the same, eating the same things driving the same car e.t.c.
Total nonsense you are still an individual and you can have your own tastes e.t.c you are just living within a more acceptable community, where things are more balanced is all.
If anything consumer choice will logically be increasingly limited as in the afore painted scenario of "communism", but implemeted instead by capitalism and the joining of corporations into conglomerates e.t.c, that will logically result in a 1 brand for all scenario.
1984 and the great communist threat! It is capitalism which is bringing about such a world!
UN-learn dudes/dudettes.
P.s i am a communist/socialist, i believe in helping my fellow man, rather than just myself/family, in equal measure.
Get over it. ;)
I'm a socialist as well -- a social democrat of sorts. I'm personally not particularly fond of communism, as I've come to the conclusion that the social upheavals inherent in revolution tend to create conditions that are contrary to maintaining democracy (for you right-wingers looking for something to react to, yes, I mean a Constitutional Republic governed by elected representatives who operate according to democratic processes. But let's stick to the shorthand term MOST people use to describe that for now -- Democracy).
For me, socialism is realizing that society is an integrated coherent whole wherein what happens to certain parts has a profound effect on everyone within the system. Wealth is impossible outside the context of the greater society. The more that a society enables you to prosper, the greater your obligations to that society become. It's not rocket science but people try to jump through all sorts of loops to avoid this simple fact.
As a socialist, I don't want to tear down the rich. Our long term problems won't be solved by taxing the rich to death. That would be counterproductive. Instead, I want to lift the lower classes out of their poverty so they can afford to pay their fair share of taxes too. I don't want to give handouts to people who refuse to work, whether they are poor or rich. Instead, I want the working class to receive what it has rightfully earned through its labor, that which it has been denied through an exploitative relationship with the upper class. These are the things for which we must advocate.
I always find it fascinating that when people complain that what socialists advocate will lead to a situation not unlike 1984. They overlook the fact that George Orwell himself was a socialist and that some of the greatest critics of totalitarian communism have been socialists too.
When you say "maintaining democracy" are we talking actual democracy democracy here? Or are we talking about "democracy" ;).
So basically your not a fan of communism because you have associated the word with anarchy? "social upheavals inherent in revolution"?
I believe "socialism" to me at least refers to a system of being cool to each other and looking after each other as a whole entire species. (i refuse to use the phrase human-race, life isn't a race, what are you racing towards, so quickly? old-age, death? yeah nice-one ;).
There is no outside of the system (unless extra-terrestrial in origin). It is merely us as human-beings looking out for each other as a whole, regardless of what little bit of land we happen to be occupying on this tiny little oblate spheroid hurtling through space/time.
Regardless of race or of religion. Helping each other in a similar way as the human body has many parts that help each other as a whole. (Granted every body needs an ass-hole, perhaps this could be the current capitalists duty for a period of time ;). Each part is individual...unique....but it plays an important part in the 'body' none-the-less. It is not "as one" literately.
There is no "greater society". Those who are in society are in society, but there will be no purges of those who are not currently fulfilling their potential, or disagree with the system only an understanding, and a helping hand to help them fulfill their potential. You cannot force people to be a part of your society tho, to do so is totalitarian. So what to do?
Create areas of land where people who do not wish to live in aforementioned society are free to live and create their own society. They are no better or no worse than the other society, they have simply chosen to live a different way.
But it would be essential that they are given a place to create their own society. (and not just some shitty island with like nothing on it;). Perhaps the people living in the 'socialist' society could all chip in and find them somewhere nice and that.
Given time perhaps the dudes off on an island would want to come back to the society, perhaps they would be perfectly happy chilling their proverbial beans, and want to stay there for a bit. Thats up to them.
But the point is even if we adopt a way of helping each other "socialism" it doesn't have to result in a totalitarian state, and if people want to rebel and chill off somewhere else, then as a responsible society we would give them the ability to do that.
But the main point is in that responsible society there would be people giving a shit and caring about their fellow humans. Instead of the current state of affairs, where everyone is almost encouraged to trip each other up to get ahead in life, everyone would have a place, a purpose and a reason to be.
Humans aren't inherently selfish/evil. That is a load of bollocks made up by those in charge who wish to control and subjugate their fellow humans. Humans i think want to help their fellow people, granted no need for a nauseatingly dopamine induced smile all the time. But when people are chilled and everyone has what they need to live without fear of oppression/ e.t.c its only gonna make for a cool place to live innit.
Never mind God bless America, If God is anywhere right now he is with Africa and the massive amount of suffering the people there are enduring, usually because of corporations/vested power interests.
The "rich" if you will, are not in harmony with their surroundings. They live in a dream world, a world of numbers and profit margins, a cold world. It is they who have the "wool pulled over their eyes", do they not realise that to live in a society one cannot neglect the society in which one lives? They will see the error of their ways, they are humans who have been deceived by the world, but they are still humans.
Those who turn sooner than later will be rewarded in full by society. And will find their place.
I believe in God, and in Jesus, but lastly i believe in the good of humanity. Balance will be restored. I have no doubt, for who is good but God alone?
Humanity as it stands (well crawls at the mo;) is in its infancy, but its just starting to get some legs and walk.
Bout bloody time!
God bless Africa, but also if there is some mild blessings left after that, then God bless us all ;)
It's been said that human beings are strange creatures. We can be greater than the angels and lower than the beasts. We are capable of making amazing sacrifices, creating breathtaking works of art, and committing the most vile of atrocities. I wouldn't say that we are inherently evil so much as that we have it within us to commit the most wicked of deeds when given the opportunity. Incidentally, the most awful of humanity's actions has always been in the name of "the greater good."
As for God... I'm of a mind that God is within us. Our souls are created in the image of God -- we are the way in which he manifests within this world. When a starving man is given a bowl of soup, that's an act of God. Then orphans are clothed and beggar women receive shelter, God has played his role. Incidentally, when we commit evil against one another we commit it against God himself. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
I won't say too much more, except insofar as God is not in Africa, it is our fault.
I am for the OWS effort but this quote is over the top.
"Every day the actions of the BPD, NYPD, etc. continue to remind us that the police no longer fight to "protect and serve" the American people, but rather the wealth and power of the 1%. ....."
"
It is over the top, but some recent news points to this being true. The amount of private money being poured into the NYPD from banks so that the banksters can use the NYPD for their own purposes for example. NYPD bought as security for the police. Do some googling. Educate yourself.
American Revolution Has Taken Place for Democracy. Here's a song from oweaick terminator theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE9yTYrI7jE&NR=1
Mubarik, Kadafi, and Mayor Bloomberg arrest and attack peaceful protesters exercising their democratic, constitutionally guaranteed, right to dissent !!!!!!!! This is what it is like to live in a "police state"
American Revolution Has Taken Place for Democracy. Here's a song from oweaick terminator theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE9yTYrI7jE&NR=1
American Revolution Has Taken Place for Democracy. Here's a song from oweaick terminator theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE9yTYrI7jE&NR=1
American Revolution Has Taken Place for Democracy. Here's a song from oweaick terminator theme. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE9yTYrI7jE&NR=1
http://purpleblogspot.blogspot.com/2011/10/ows-requests.html
where are the videos? we need to see the evidence.
where are the videos? we need to see the evidence.
Kudos to all you who are fighting the good fight against govt. corruption and banker-fueled inequality. You should though, if you haven't already, shirk away from the unions and emphasize that they do not speak for you, even if they march with you. They have ulterior motives unfortunately, as they represent the Democratic party trying to co-opt your movement's power. Keep them away.
You should also target your protest towards the Federal Reserve, as they pull the purse strings of our government since they write the checks. For more info on the Fed Reserve see:
www.trtam.com/docs/trtam-beta-1.1.pdf
The second anyone gets close to the truth about the origin of this crisis (The Fed, not Wall Street) the bank will try to make the movement about politics, class warfare, etc. Their propaganda and spin are legendary, do not relent. Until this county controls its own money again, we will never be free.
Agreed! Ron Paul 2012 -- please vote in the Republican primaries!! Also -- www.energybackedmoney.com --- Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Edison initially brought this idea to the table during the writing of the U.S. Constitution - it however never caught on because electricity was not widely used yet.
It is only a problem if the Unions try to speak for the movement. I don't see any problem however with organized labor becoming stronger due to this moevement.
The Democrats however definitely should not get a damn thing out of this. Unless some Democrats want to leave the DP and run for office as independents.
What ever happened to the first line of your Constitution: "WE THE PEOPLE" ?
Please watch my I AM NOT MOVING! - #OCCUPY Wall Street Short Film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCn0kBzZGg0
What ever happened to the first line of your Constitution: "WE THE PEOPLE" ?
Fed Inspector General Claims She Does Not Know Where Trillions Went. Corruption in the FedRezS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAMAF4Cfrps&feature=related
John Perkins/Confessions of an Economic Hitman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5bwYWvGtc&feature=related
YES!
hA HA HA
I want to see a sign: "A Government that OVERSTEPS its proper function-protecting the natural rights of LIFE, LIBERTY, and PROPERTY-becomes a TYRANNY." Lets take our country back, people!
Goldman Sachs - News from the UK
The Wall Street bank – which last year paid $15.3bn (£9.5bn) in bonuses to its employees – is understood to have made a sweetheart deal with HMRC which allowed it to avoid paying the full interest on a failed tax avoidance scheme set up in the 1990s.
Around that time, Goldman is understood to have set up an offshore company in the British Virgin Islands called Goldman Sachs Services Ltd. This employed all of Goldman's London bankers, who were then "seconded" to work there In 2009, Judge David Williams said the Virgin Islands company seemed to be created as "a way of keeping information about the GS accounts and payroll out of the public domain and confidential".
But the Goldman Virgin Islands employee benefit trust (EBT) was not alone; 21 other investment banks and other firms had also created offshore EBTs, which allowed bonuses to be indirectly invested into elaborate share option schemes.
However, in 2005 a court ruled in favour of HMRC that the EBTs were illegitimate tax avoidance devices. The 21 other firms accepted the ruling and compensated the revenue on what was owed.
But Goldman Sachs refused to pay its £30.8m bill. By 2010, according to a public judgment, the unpaid bill with accumulated interest had mounted to £40m.
According to a leaked Government document revealing the minutes of a meeting on December 8 2010 chaired by HMRC general counsel Anthony Inglese, Goldman's tactics were obstructive.
The document also claims that the permanent secretary Dave Hartnett had "shaken hands" on a secret settlement with Goldman Sachs.
HMRC said in a statement: "The picture you have been given is incomplete and therefore fundamentally flawed but taxpayer confidentiality prevents us from correcting your story in detail. Dave Hartnett's long career in the tax service has been built on ensuring the right tax is paid by large businesses and individuals alike. HMRC does not do 'sweetheart' deals."
Mr Hartnett is due to be questioned on Wednesday by the Commons public accounts committee.
Goldman Sachs declined to comment.
I stand by the protestors that are in new york, and boston, and to all those that got arrested in both I support you, all of the protestors please keep going! Change!
Limiting funds for candidates just from individuals from the candidate's state won't work. They will find ways around that issue. Imagine what our country could be like if our politicians weren't bought by the highest bidder? Our economy, our environment, our children's schools - we need to get money out of our democracy. Please consider this Constitutional Amendment. Add your name to the petition: http://www.getmoneyout.com
Limiting funds for candidates just from individuals from the candidate's state won't work. They will find ways around that issue. Imagine what our country could be like if our politicians weren't bought by the highest bidder? Our economy, our environment, our children's schools - we need to get money out of our democracy. Please consider this Constitutional Amendment. Add your name to the petition: http://www.getmoneyout.com
Remember this always. The police and law enforcement in general is an institution having the primary task of protecting capital/property. All other tasks, including traffic ticketing, solving murders, and finding robbers is their secondary duty. Their first duty is to protect the rich from the wrath of the poor. However, having said this, I don't want you to think all Police are bad people. Most of them are people like me and you facing the same systematic economic injustices that the majority of people face in this country. I am not a communist. Never have been and never will be, but I know for a fact that wherever there is severe economic inequality, there is heavy handed law enforcement and high incarceration rates. We are see both of these things in America today. Our founding fathers are turning in their graves right now.
So shouldn't your recipe for success be for everyone to carry an American flag and a bottle of advil? That way when you are arrested forcefully (like you should be if you resist) then you can say they are trampling the American flag and going against the Geneva convention by assaulting a "medic"...
You are a joke and only making things worse.
In 1773, the British fired on a crowd of protestors on the Boston Common. That this kind of thing would go on in the same city is just sad.
How dare they infringe upon the people rights.
Take back America and ignite the spirit of 1776 once again!!!
Eliminate the federal reserve, we need sound money. Not this fiat bs money we have and ratio banking. they create money out of thin air. March on the federal reserve first they are the true rulers of this nation. you know why Kennedy was killed? he tried to eliminate the federal reserves power to loan the government money tacked with interest with executive order 11110
I refuse to let my kids grow up in a police state for the by the companies for the companies.
More Power to Occupy Wall Street. I am concerned that eventually both corporations and the government will plant troublemakers to make Occupy Wall Street look bad to the public. Good Luck
I believe they already have...
Omg you are so right!!!! Or even worse, what if one of your actual protestors pretends to be a government plant pretending to be a protestor and starts trouble...too deep for your stoned state of mind?
Do not assume you will be respected. Do not delude yourselves. This Is a war. And nothing that WAS before 2001, and especially before 2007 will be upheld, such as the Geneva convention. The police are only nominally here to protect you. Do not forget Orwell's statement, ever: "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night because Rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
I spent the day Monday with the occupation and participated in a meeting with the people of Non Violet Communications. They made a deep impression on me, the only way to understand is to get involved. My prayers for strength are with you all. I don't think people on the outside are getting that there are tremendous sacrifices being made in the name of a better world. Be strong we are listening.
"Every day the actions of the BPD, NYPD, etc. continue to remind us that the police no longer fight to "protect and serve" the American people, but rather the wealth and power of the 1%."
I think you should change the last part to:
but rather "Oppress and Intimidate" the American People.
why? is it not about the money? Those in power don't have anything against the American people, as long as being American has nothing to do with questioning their power. It is more direct to criticize them for their shamelessness in using the police to defend their wealth and power. I don't see any problem with putting it that way.
SHAME on the Boston police department! America is watching!!
Common sense solutions to our demands (posted on CNN)
Please share with everyone. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-686666
Further point: the Boston police ordered the media to leave. Freedom of the press and freedom to peacefully assemble, and freedom to protest the government are all in the first amendment. This action was not only uncalled for, it was a violation of our constitution!
That shows us what they are afraid of. Put out unedited videos of their actions.
land of the free my ass. its sad that our government can pretend to give us rights but when it comes down to it, they deny us of these rights.
Why do you suppose they did that? They need more video cameras in Boston.
This is kind of hypocritical don't you think? I've seen quite a bit of media ran out of the protests by some of your protestors for being tied to fox news... Hear me when I say I think things need to change, but it seems to me this isn't the wisest comment to help support your cause...
What specifically? Individuals being angry at being ridiculed daily by faux news and telling them to go away, or the police ordering all press to leave? As an individual, you are allowed to express your unhappiness with the press. The constitution prohibits the government from suppressiing the press.
Fox News is comedy, not journalism.
Police generally aren't as quick to assault innocent civilians when cameras are rolling.
Well they got caught on camera abusing the Veterans for Peace and throwing the American flag on the ground in Boston.
and then to top it off, they even abused and arrested the Executive Director of the National Director for the Northeast Lawyers Guild when she was clearly wearing a neon green hat that said Legal Observer as well as arresting 4 EMT's which is even a violation of the Geneva convention in war. Real smart move on their part.
i expected more from bpd my home state what a disgrace, this will only fuel the fire for change the more they fight us the more it proves they are in fact against us.Instead of trying to help us they are still trying scare tactics this only will make us stronger. Main stream media still cant grasp whats going on here, they think we are just a bunch on loonies, well of course the system works for them. im tired of the movement being portrayed as criminals on tv. The more i listen to the leaders the less faith i have, we WILL MAKE OUR VOICE HEARD AS ONE!
support for Boston from a FloridaBoy. Much Love.
Keep on going. Occupy CNN, FOX ..show you are the people and must be respected.
as an american this country is turning into a police state... and had been for a while. ive been to Moscow where they went thru my luggage in the airport and were nice and respectful to me. but here in our airports as an american citizen i am treated like a potential terrorist. my theory on police brutality at a peaceful protest is that they always arrest people who protest the right causes. take the keystone xL pipeline protests and now OWS... thats how you know you are on the right track. its part of the sacrifice of fighting for what you know is right. it's worth the risk. our country has gotten to this point because we've been lulled into a sense of complacency because we've had the illusion of comfort and wealth. Now that unsustainable system has come crashing down. this is our new reality and we can make it into a fair and just system that puts people and the environment before profit and education and enlightenment before propaganda and war. SOLIDARITY!!
It hasn't turned into a police state, it's been that way a long time. Black americans have known especially for a lot longer than white middle class americans who are finally waking up to the reality.
Yes, it shows you what the powers that be are scared of. The police don't want to crack down on you (most o them don't anyway). They are directed to do these actions.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they Fight you. And then you WIN.
Read this http://huff.to/ox7mom and then tell me what you think. Because if she is right, then the OWS message could be sharpened.
Too Big Too Fail has already failed!!!!!
If I had a nickel for every time some hypocritical conservative talking head railed about the treatment of the protesters in Tiananmen Square, I would be among the 1%. When a similar outrages happen here they are so blinded to our police state tactics they cannot see the parallels.
agreed
The programming of the corporate puppets needs to change. We need to educate them. Certainly there are family members of the police that can begin to reason with them when off duty... They will be confused at first until they realize whom they actually should regard as the criminals...
Public servants speak: quit putting the police in these positions. If they give you warning that you will be arrested if you don't move and you choose to stay, you've invited arrest. This is obviously what you want. Seeing veterans arrested certainly gets PR. But veterans of war have seen way worse than this, and I assure you MANY cops are veterans too, they know a squabble on the streets of Boston is nothing compared to war.
But it is clear that you are purposefully getting arrested. And you will take down guys who make squat trying to pay the rent just like you.
signed, a public servant
You might want to look into this a bit deeper. In Boston at the second camp they were establishing, they had an agreement with the manager of the park to use the space. I think that it is likely that this camp will be re-established once the parties discuss things amongst each other again.
We are the Wall Street Protestors. Existence, as you know it, is over. We will add your Fiscal and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
this is NOT what a police state looks like.
and to those who have lived in a police state and had friends and family beaten or killed or imprisoned for their thoughts, claiming this is one is HIGHLY offensive. it also gives much credence to the idea that the ows crowd are little more than spoiled, pampered, crybabies who don't have the guts or the nuts to protest those who regulate every last move wall st. makes: the federal government.
While this is not evidence of a police state - the amount of spending that has gone into security apartus and homeland security is definitely evidence that we live in a police state. Did you not read "The Secret Sharer" expose in the new yorker? And thats the MSM version of the story. uIndependent Media has done the story much better.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer
The concept of a 'police state' doesn't exist as one fixed point on a unidimensional graph. It can be considered as being on a scale designating a range of degree ot totalitarianism.
Furthermore, do you truly believe that there are not persons who've been killed or maimed by the 'State,' or statists, in this country, as a result of their beliefs?
There are tens, if not hundreds of references in our history to those who have been injured or maimed, even killed, as a result of voicing or peacefully assembling in reference to their commitment to an ideal.
Last night's injured in Boston are among them.
I disagree. A country is or is not a police state. There aren't degrees. You either have no rights to free assembly and free speech, as in a police state, or you can assemble and protest and exercise your right to free speech, like what ows is doing.
"do you truly believe that there are not persons who've been killed or maimed by the 'State,' or statists, in this country, as a result of their beliefs?"
no, I do not believe that. is it your assertion that if this happened, then that nation is a police state? if so, you desperately need to tone down the dramatics and use proper syntax to get a message across. all these top-shelf words just make the whole thing seem so silly. which is an uphill climb to begin with when self-proclaimed downtrodden, hopeless wretches carry $1000 worth of hi-tech gadgets to let their facebook "friends" and co-tweeters know how downtrodden and hopeless they are.
Superficial rights to assemble, with violence as a reward for anything that approaches real change, is not too much different than preventing assembly altogether.
I don't carry $1,000 gadets, or subscribe to FaceBook.
My reality is apparently not as cut and dried, or as black and white as yours.
Yes, when the State and statists, selectively or otherwise, cause harm to persons for expressing ideas, gathering in assembly, etc., it is a police state. When they suppress free speech, it is the mark of a police state.
When the courts and police/various authorities are (illegitimately) granted greater authority than those they supposedly serve, and immunize themselves from punishment for their crimes, while assigning penalties of various magnitude for far lesser crimes, to those with less power (who supposedly are equal under the law), then this is also a mark of a police state.
Totalitarianism and police states do, indeed, occur on a continuum.
Some are merely far more insideous and/or creative than others.
"Superficial rights to assemble, with violence as a reward for anything that approaches real change, is not too much different than preventing assembly altogether."
perhaps, but it still isn't a police state. not even close.
"I don't carry $1,000 gadets, or subscribe to FaceBook."
so? you're one person. if you are there at zuccotti park, you don't see many smart phones, lap tops, ipads, etc? I see them on TV. lots and lots of them.
"My reality is apparently not as cut and dried, or as black and white as yours."
key word being "apparently" since you know next to nothing about me. the world is little more than gray areas. that said, there are enough binaries (which I eschew when possible) to know bullshit when I hear or read it. calling this a police state is a perfect example.
"Yes, when the State and statists, selectively or otherwise, cause harm to persons for expressing ideas, gathering in assembly, etc., it is a police state."
I see, and you're talking about ME being in a black and white world? that's rich. to you, in a hypothetical utopia of perfect rights, one bad actor who works for or with that state makes the entire utopia a police state. you can't possibly be serious.
"When the courts and police/various authorities are (illegitimately) granted greater authority than those they supposedly serve, and immunize themselves from punishment for their crimes, while assigning penalties of various magnitude for far lesser crimes, to those with less power (who supposedly are equal under the law), then this is also a mark of a police state."
no, it's not. it is a sign of injustice, of an oligarchy, of an elitist class run wild, but not a police state. you're trying too hard.
despite all this, if the police state is what you are against, what the F are you doing on wall st? why aren't you in DC?
serious question: is it just a coincidence that the president and the senate are controlled by left-leaning/liberal/democrats (in name, at least--I think both parties suck) and your protest with the way things are run is being held at wall st?
why aren't you in DC? they make the rules. they take the bribes. they make the special considerations for the wealthy. they allow themselves to be bought. they cater to the special interests. so why aren't you in DC?
it's like if a toddler somehow smashed your foot with a hammer causing real damage and you take your protest to the pre-school instead of taking it up with his parents. makes no sense at all.
unless, of course, it isn't a coincidence. unless, of course, this is a left-wing, democratic party, partisan politics, labor union, wannabe tea party thing. that makes a lot more sense than how this is being presented.
Your questions about Wall St. vs. D.C. have already been answered numerous times by others, so your repeating them over and over is getting kind of old. You, yourself, make reference to Oligarchs, yet you ignore their power in this discussion. I guess that's not convenient for your point some times. Sellective acceptance of the ideas of formal and informal power, I guess... Depending on your mood or angle?.
I perceive some of your dialect via your written words; I wonder if you're scared that someone may infringe on your own special torment from elsewhere (another country), if the abuse of power here is called what it is?
Having the power to curtail supposedly unalienable rights is the founbdation of power in a Police State. Doing so, however selectively, is the action of a Police State.
Yes, you are black and white in your definition, and for your own reasons.
Many flavors of tyrants operate by virtue of a police state; the misuse of authority is a tool, not a political party.
You're right, though. The only thinig I know of you is what you write here, on this thread, but that tells me a whole lot.
I do not ignore their (oligarchs) power, but you sure seem to be ignoring those who allow them to run wild.
and yes, there is formal and informal power. is that too much of a gray area for you?
"I perceive some of your dialect via your written words" - laffs.
"I wonder if you're scared that someone may infringe on your own special torment from elsewhere (another country)" - clear as mud, but still made me laugh
"Having the power to curtail supposedly unalienable rights is the founbdation of power in a Police State." - how silly. this means any nation with unalienable rights and a military (or police) is a police state. if you really believe this, you're too silly for this topic.
anyway, I notice lots and lots of "you" in your response. I guess when you can't counter the idea it's time to go after the messenger. typical. 911 truthers do this all the time.
Almost like your routine/repetitious assertions that everyone you're debating is a Dem. It appears to me that you use repeated references to others' attributes (created in your mind, of course) almost since your arrival at this board.. Are you a Truther?
"your routine/repetitious assertions..."
'Almost like your..."
"It appears to me that you..."
attack the messenger. blah blah blah. nevermind that protesting wall st is pointless since the assheads in DC are responsible. don't address that. keep obsessing on me. yeah, that'll work.
"Are you a Truther?"
are you a parrot?
Nope, merely using your shallow criteria to assess others' group memberships. Apparently you find it insulting?... As others have obviously found you.
"Can't go camp, 'cause I have to work."
Yeah, during the protests to end the war in 'Nam, I always checked with my boss and my mommy first, just to make sure it was ok, 'cause while others were losing everything they had, getting beaten and going to jail, I really needed to know that feather pillow would be waiting for me.
What a fucking pussy and hypocrite you are..
"merely using your shallow criteria to assess others' group memberships."
and what criteria is that? whim?
"Apparently you find it insulting?"
no, I find it amusing.
"As others have obviously found you"
if I'm insulting because I think it is pointless to protest those who are not responsible and the protest should be aimed at the federal govt, then you are far more of a delicate little flower than I ever imagined. and, thus, you have become even more amusing. congrats!
"Yeah, during the protests to end the war in 'Nam, I always checked with my boss and my mommy first, just to make sure it was ok"
good for you. that's how you don't lose your job and end up unemployed in the worst economy since the great depression. so what's your whine?
"'cause while others were losing everything they had" and what good did that do? what good would it do for me now?
"What a fucking pussy and hypocrite you are."
and what a peaceful and loving example of MLK's doctrine you are, jerkoff.
protesting wall st. is pointless. protesting the fed govt is not. this is what you've got your panties all in a bunch over? grow up, little boy in a man's body.
Wait!! Hold the presses!! Did someone tell you I was committed to walking in the foot-steps of MLK??!!
Man!! If that's the case, then I have to admit that it's getting harder and harder to get quality intel from the rumor mill these days.
See, if they'd have told you that I hold MLK,Gandhi, et al., in high regard, then they'd have been much more correct.
But as for me, I recall those guys dying violent deaths, and, out of respect for my own general health, I gave that shit up in about 1974. I've been much happier in most settings ever since, too.
But- I have taken an oath to pacivity for the gigs at Wall St. and D.C., out of respect to, and for, house rules established by those who have formed the original center of these movements. As well as out of commitment to those who will pay me to report on it.
But carry on, crypto, your distraction and trolling is apparently what you're into (however sociopathic it may appear), and some of us still practice the right to pursuit of happiness, how ever odd the path of that pursuit may be..
But come on, "Jerk-off"?? I mean, surely you can be more creative than that. That's so passe'. And I'm married. I get laid pretty frequently without having to rely on either palm.
How 'bout you??
"Wait!! Hold the presses!! Did someone tell you I was committed to walking in the foot-steps of MLK??!!"
I don't know. did someone tell you I was committed to marching on DC?
hypocrite.
"I have taken an oath to pacivity for the gigs at Wall St. and D.C., out of respect to, and for, house rules established by those who have formed the original center of these movements. As well as out of commitment to those who will pay me to report on it."
so you've sold out your true convictions for a paycheck.
are you trying to make me laugh at you? it's working!
"some of us still practice the right to pursuit of happiness, how ever odd the path of that pursuit may be.."
me and you both, toots.
"But come on, "Jerk-off"?? I mean, surely you can be more creative than that."
I respond in kind unless I think the person is worth more. when you said "What a fucking pussy and hypocrite you are." you showed me you were not worth any more effort.
now, you taking "jerk-off" literally...you're worth even less.
btw, it's not the verb, it's the result that you are most comparable to.
This is what a police state looks like. Your comment is HIGHLY offensive to me. I can be certain there are other places in this world that are "more" police state then this, but that doesn't define rather this is or isn't. That argument makes no sense. If a man pushes his wife once is it not abuse even if another man beats his wife unconscious?
this is not what a police state looks like. it may be what a pig stye looks like, but it is nothing close to what a police state looks like. in a real police state, there would be no protest. there would be headbashing, water cannoning, mass arrests (some never to be seen again), and other violence.
if you find this offensive, talk to people who grew up on the other side of the iron curtain. maybe you can learn some perspective. a police state hardly has degrees. it is or it isn't. this isn't. accept it and move on (no pun intended).
We have a sophisticated and pervasive security apparatus which is used time and time again to silence dissent.Its the kind of police state that you have not seen much of and is not yet blatant. But none of that changes the fact that we have in effect the largest police apparatus in the world under the control of the federal gov't - BUT most of it is privatized and thus available to use by anyone with money. That you do not want to call this a police state... is just semantics. We've been one since the patriot act passed.
While I agree that calling the action the police took in Boston as evidence of a police state is way over the top. BUT that doesn't change the bleeding budget ulcer of the security industry that has grown out of control in the past 10 years. And I haven't even mentioned COINTELPRO which predates the past decade of hardline security policies.
"We have a sophisticated and pervasive security apparatus which is used time and time again to silence dissent."
how utterly ridiculous and hyperdramatic.
"we have in effect the largest police apparatus in the world under the control of the federal gov't - BUT most of it is privatized..."
first half true (although not proof of a police state, which actually means something), second half totally untrue and absurd. sorry, but "most" of the military is NOT private. where in the world do you come up with this nonsesne?
"...and thus available to use by anyone with money."
now you're just off the deep end.
"While I agree that calling the action the police took in Boston as evidence of a police state is way over the top. "
and now you're back from the deep end.
"And I haven't even mentioned COINTELPRO..."
and now you sound like a 911 truther.
wow. just....wow.
Not talking about the military. Wake up.
"Not talking about the military. Wake up."
must be why you mentioned "we have in effect the largest police apparatus in the world under the control of the federal gov't"
if that doesn't refer to the military, what does it refer to? what is the enormous police apparatus under federal control?
and if you can't respond without laughable dramatics, don't bother.
Of course it doesn't refer to the military. It refers to the massive security industry that is growing around DC. Are you truly ignorant of how this has been growing over the past decade? Are you completely ignorant of the ramifications of the Patriot ACT?
Here was a tame non-controversial, MSM style expose: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer
I see, so the private security industry is under the control of the megawealthy's whims.
comical.
and when you said "BUT most of it is privatized and thus available to use by anyone with money" you really meant all of it, right? otherwise, you were talking about the military.
let me guess: drama major, right?
You almost seem like you are responding to what I wrote, but its just not quite happening. There's this disconnect with you that is uncanny.
Are you a robot?
your words: "BUT most of it is privatized and thus available to use by anyone with money"
if most is privatized, what is the rest?
The protesters were told not to pitch tents on that second site and were told to leave by midnight.
They were defiant and were breaking the law.
You can't defy the law and the police and expect to get away with it.
So they were merely ticketed for trespass, like any other individual would be in similar circumstances?
That's not what the news release said... They were reportedly battered in some cases.
When's the last time the BPD did that to an upper-middle-class or upper class Ivy-league student with a known family name who was guilty of committing similar crimes?
Apologists help to keep the beast breathing easy. Cast off your chains. There's no requirement to be subjugated, unless that's the desired posture..
They deserved what they got. They deserved to have their tents thrown in the garbage.
So, despite the original reports, all that occurred in Boston was that the protesters in the incorrect area of the Park had their tents thrown in the trash by the cops?
Now, I wasn't there, and I'm assuming you weren't either, but the reports included statements of brutality having taken place..
Lastly, there are numerous recent rulings re. homeless persons, time periods for eviction from public lands, and destruction of private property without notice.
One such ruling recently was issued in the State of Alaska, to be even more specific.
But the protesters deserved what they got.
Boy, I sure am glad you're on our side... I was worried about comaraderie here when it came to opposing excess force and 1st Amendment-protected assembly, but I can see we're in good hands.
thanks.
You guys are crazy. Go get an education & job and make something of yourself. Of course the police intervened, protests are high-risk situations and can change into dangerous riots instantly. I can't wait to get into finance after I graduate.
Yeah, the ignorance of your comments belies the fact that you're still in school and probably still living under mommy and daddy's roof.
Why don't you come back to us once you've spent a little time in the real world and have some experience under your belt.
You're crying about how it's unfair that you have no money. Tough break, go do something with your life instead of wasting time lobbying the government. This pretty much sums up your movement http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
I never said I have no money. I'm advocating on behalf of others, not myself. My situation isn't what I'd like at the moment but I'm one of the ones who will get ahead even if things don't change.
Fair enough. Either way using personal attacks will get you nowhere. If you're serious about OWS you should probably be more mature in how you advocate it (that's not to say that I haven't been immature myself).
I didn't mean to personally attack you -- I was trying to make an assessment based on what you were saying. I sincerely apologize.
eos, what is it that you expect to gain from this discussion board?
I'm hoping that at least 1 person will read what I said and consider that maybe OWS is taking things a bit far. If not then I'll atleast enjoy the delusional comments.
You need to work on your delivery. You are not convincing. Annoying. Misinformed. But not convincing.
There is no convincing such narrow-minded and fanatic people nor is it worth my time.
I'll add internally inconsistent as well. You are spending plenty of time commenting here, but that is worth while?
Probably not, but it's entertaining. Trying to reason with OWS would be equivalent to reasoning with a group of scientologists, not going to happen.
Nothing better to do?
Any reccomendations?
If you have to ask...
I guess I could mess around with my forex account, but that would just make me a thief/gangster
Goldman Sachs - News from the UK
The Wall Street bank – which last year paid $15.3bn (£9.5bn) in bonuses to its employees – is understood to have made a sweetheart deal with HMRC which allowed it to avoid paying the full interest on a failed tax avoidance scheme set up in the 1990s.
Around that time, Goldman is understood to have set up an offshore company in the British Virgin Islands called Goldman Sachs Services Ltd. This employed all of Goldman's London bankers, who were then "seconded" to work there In 2009, Judge David Williams said the Virgin Islands company seemed to be created as "a way of keeping information about the GS accounts and payroll out of the public domain and confidential".
But the Goldman Virgin Islands employee benefit trust (EBT) was not alone; 21 other investment banks and other firms had also created offshore EBTs, which allowed bonuses to be indirectly invested into elaborate share option schemes.
However, in 2005 a court ruled in favour of HMRC that the EBTs were illegitimate tax avoidance devices. The 21 other firms accepted the ruling and compensated the revenue on what was owed.
But Goldman Sachs refused to pay its £30.8m bill. By 2010, according to a public judgment, the unpaid bill with accumulated interest had mounted to £40m.
According to a leaked Government document revealing the minutes of a meeting on December 8 2010 chaired by HMRC general counsel Anthony Inglese, Goldman's tactics were obstructive.
The document also claims that the permanent secretary Dave Hartnett had "shaken hands" on a secret settlement with Goldman Sachs.
HMRC said in a statement: "The picture you have been given is incomplete and therefore fundamentally flawed but taxpayer confidentiality prevents us from correcting your story in detail. Dave Hartnett's long career in the tax service has been built on ensuring the right tax is paid by large businesses and individuals alike. HMRC does not do 'sweetheart' deals."
Mr Hartnett is due to be questioned on Wednesday by the Commons public accounts committee.
Goldman Sachs declined to comment.
This is the truth right here: Dylan Ratigan's epic rant against what's destroying our country.
http://youtu.be/qI_P3pxze5w
Get all money out of politics!!!
FANTASTIC! Absolutely wonderful video, thank you for bringing it to my attention.
"Get all money out of politics!!!"
absolutely.
and who is it that will make such a rule?
hint: it ain't Wall St.
so why the F aren't you at the white house and on capital hill?
what is this movement afraid of? why won't this movement target the real perps. there are, after all, 535 members of the house and senate plus the president and his administration. why aren't the people who make the rules being targeted? wall st does what most people would do in their situation: gain as much influence as possible.
it still takes a scumbag politician to accept being bought.
when you have a choice between corruption or no power at all, most choose to be corrupted, some a little, some alot. It is only the very courageous that can say this isn't right, and walk away. That is true in every unequal power relationship - and right now the politicians are extremely dependent on the wealthy because there is no limit on the amount of money that can be spent on campaigns.
boo-Fn-hoo...the pols are dependent on the wealthy.
hmmm...who set up the system that makes the pols dependent on the wealthy? oh, I know. the pols!
seriously, making lame excuses for bribe-accepting politicians has to be a new low in the annals of protest.
all the yammering in the world does not change the simple fact that the political establishment makes the rules, takes the bribes, and allows the system to be corrupted. they are the ones who should be targeted by this protest. and as the excuses for not doing this get lamer and lamer, it becomes much more clear that the reason this isn't happening is because the senate and the white house are controlled by democrats. plain and simple and very obvious.
Many many people have spent generations fighting government corruption and it has gone nowhere. The main choices are non-choices when it comes to elections.
So given how ineffective dealing with DC has been over the past generation - because they only listen to the moneyed interests on Wall Street - why would the movement focus on DC alone?
"why would the movement focus on DC alone?"
because DC alone is where the change will happen. expecting the wall st. crowd to give a flying F what you think is absurd.
As far as I can tell, you don't understand what is happening. But you are too closed off to let another idea enter your head. Its a real catch-22 for you.
Do you realize that your comment did not address what I said at all?
So. You failed. You are unconvincing, and repetitive. However if you want to make a difference go to DC yourself and join the occupation there. Otherwise you are nothing but a blow hard.
"Do you realize that your comment did not address what I said at all?"
you're not too swift on the uptake, are you?
wall st: does not care
politicians: care about not being reelected
it really isn't that complicated.
Great. So are you going to DC to take care of this problem?
I can't miss work.
What about you?
Well, as the saying goes, "put up or shut up".
what about you? you said "Great." which infers approval. are you going to DC or are you going to shut up rather than put up?
I never said that was my focus. I was simply supporting you in your determination to do something about DC. I think its an inefficient use of energy, but rather than fight you on it, I can't see how you'd do any harm in trying to reform DC.
But since I can't actually camp out with my local occupation, I support them materially and participate in decision making, and make contacts with resources that I see as valuable. So I am definitely doing my part.
You however are a drag. You are complaining and apparently contributing nothing.
so you're not putting up and you're not shutting up.
hypocrite.
I'm realizing that you are having a conversation with yourself.
I can't camp because I have to work. your response was the put up or shut up.
you can't camp either. but your excuse is self-approved.
you're a hypocrite.
I love that this conversation is happening.
I love that this conversation is happening.
98 FTSE firms 'use tax havens' (UKPA) – 16 hours ago
Most of the UK's top companies listed on the Stock Exchange use tax havens, according to new research.
ActionAid said that 98 of the FTSE 100 companies have declared tax haven companies.
The charity is calling on the Government to crack down on tax havens, saying they "can't afford to turn a blind eye".
Chris Jordan, tax justice expert at ActionAid, said: "ActionAid's research showing the use of tax havens by Britain's biggest companies raises serious questions they need to answer.
"Tax havens have a damaging impact on the UK exchequer, the stability of the international financial system, and vitally on the ability of developing countries to raise tax revenues which would lift them out of poverty and make them less dependent on aid."
ActionAid said there were 1,649 tax haven companies declared between the UK's "big four" banks. The only two companies not to use tax havens were Fresnillo and Hargreaves Lansdown, ActionAid said.
Mr Jordan added: "When multinationals use tax havens to avoid paying their fair share, ordinary people in both poor and rich countries are left to pick up the bill.
"Spending on doctors, nurses and other essential services gets cut for those who need it most.
"Tax havens might provide the lure of financial secrecy and low tax rates for big companies, but at a time when all countries are desperate for revenues, the UK Government can't afford to turn a blind eye."
May all people on this planet experience freedom from tyranny, aggression, and hatred. May we all find a way to continue this human society in a way that does not spiral down into further aggression and suffering. May this Occupy Wall St. movement bring only goodness and compassion to our world.
The Wall Street Oligarchs contribute nothing. They steal, and they destroy. Since the debacle that became obvious in 2006 and led to the crash of 2008, they have congratulated themselves and given themselves big bonuses, even as they have stolen our money and our jobs.
And none of them have gone to prison for their crimes. This should be no surprise because they have gained control of Washington DC and of the machinery that we laughingly call the "justice system". So, they won't be going to prison.
If our system is to survive, this oligarchy must be broken up. If we are to live other than as servants, this oligarchy must be smashed.
Which means they need to be killed. Kill them. Kill the senior executives at Goldman. Those who ran Lehman. Those who used Fannie and Freddie as a piggy bank. Those who ran AIG. Kill all of them.
Yeah lets kill all the rich people and take their money. Just because I sit on my ass doesn't mean I'm not entitled to more of the countries wealth.
To anyone willing, Littera Report is seeking citizen journalists to cover the Occupy movement across the United States! http://gobb.us/p19
We need 20,000 votes for a free billboard and 200,000 votes for free billboards in TImes Square! Vote and share!
http://www.epicstep.com/campaign/337/occupytogether-occupywallst-billboard/
Please give up the fight you are idiots. How do you think getting rid of Companies will get you jobs? Jeeez go out and work find something you are good at and get a job. Create a business and hire some one. Oh wait I want to see the idiot who crapped on a cop car again that was funny really helps your cause.
'Every day the actions of the BPD, NYPD, etc. continue to remind us that the police no longer fight to "protect and serve" the American people, but rather the wealth and power of the 1%.'
Hardly....
Saying "this is what a police state looks like" in incredibly disrespectful to people in other countries who are persevering in actual tyranny/police state situations and would die for the freedoms you enjoy. Stop trying to manufacture a martyrdom situation.
It IS a police state when police arrest and brutalize people for PEACEFULLY protesting.... a right our Constitution grants ALL OF US. It may not be as bad as it is in other countries, but this is just the beginning. The fact that police in NYC and Boston are doing this CLEARLY shows how corrupt our system is, as they are being bought off to protect the corruption.
Get a clue, please.
The fact that the people in other countries have it worse doesn't mean our struggles cease to be legitimate. We stand in solidarity with al our comrades around the world struggling to be free from the iron grip of state authority.
Exactly.... and the police brutality and police state issues CAN become worse if we don't fight them.
Negative relativism is a guranteed downward spiral. Haven't we seen enough of that?
My neighbor has cancer, so I suppose I should feel good about my diabetes and leprosy?
Ain't logic grand for some?
Yes, it is!
Folks, there is a feedback loop between large government and large corporations: large corporations like large government, and large government likes large corporations. The Tea Party is objecting to the government side, and you are objecting to the corporation side. Why not take a minute, understand the system, and pick the right enemies? Obama has taken more from Wall Street than any politician in recent memory.
Capitalism is not the enemy. It is the best system for creating wealth through innovation ever devised, which is why we have the highest living standard of any society in human history. If you doubt this, travel Africa or central Asia.
The problem, the reason jobs are in short supply, is structural: it lies in our fractional reserve banking system, and the central banks the world over that serve to correct all the problems that it creates. It is a parasitic system, that sucks the wealth out of ordinary working people, and hands it--not to all bankers--but to bankers at the top of the food chain.
Marx was wrong when he said that Capitalists do not contribute anything: they contribute ideas, and ideas are the most basic form of capital. Steve Jobs and Woz had, primarily, an idea, and ideas are free to all.
Banks alone, through the process of inflation, make claims on the public wealth, without contributing anything.
Please read this treatise, self organize and become serious, and start thinking about what actual, practicable outcome you want. http://www.goodnessmovement.com/Page23.html
If you have all day to kill, I suggest you spend it reading relevant texts aloud, from a figurative or literal soapbox. You might start with Ron Paul's "End the Fed". You can also start with mine. It is straight forward, I think, clear, and in the end makes arguments that I believe are unique to me.
"you are objecting to the corporation side."
No, we object to both.
Africa? Asia? Every african country, every asian country except one or two are capitalist.
Bankers are ALSO capitalists. Most of those who control large amounts of capital have it in no relation to the amount of input they had - Jobs was a brilliant salesman and a reasonable coder, Woz was the technical genius, but neither worked alone.
And what do we have to care for a white supremacist gold tycoon?
Bankers are NOT Capitalists. You do not understand the system. What I have proposed will, in my view, correct the problems that we have, without creating the new ones that radicals always carry in their wake.
Please read the series.
Bankers are PART of the capotalilist system at this time. They have bought the government ,and now they have bought the BPD & NYPD.
Right now we are debating about the police state that has encircled the movement,and their attempts to eradicated the #OWS and # owt with brutal force and blatant disregard for the right of a peaceful demonstration by We The People!
Um.... we DO NOT have the highest standard of living in human history. THAT is part of the problem.... people who think the USA is no. 1 at everything.
Have you ever heard of Norway... Finland... other such countries?
Compare our national wealth to Norway. We have a bit more. Further, compare the sizes of our houses, rates of car ownership, the extent of our highway system, how much access to products from around the world we have.
Everything in Europe is small.
Further, this misses the point. Compare our nation now to our nation 200 years ago. Where did the progress come from? Was it accidental? Of course not: it was the outcome of countless discrete inventions and transactions handled by individuals within a Capitalistic, free market economy.
If you are concerned with the "1%", then you need to understand how the wealth of ordinary people is confiscated by our banking system.
Please read the series.
So, size of material products determines standard of living? How about... we're more stupid and less efficient when it comes to the things you mention.
Your comment tells me everything.... that you and others value size and money above everything else, and you think that determines standard of living.
Look at age of mortality in the U.S.
Look at the rate of still-births.
look at prevalence of disease, and the rate of mortality associated with curable or controllable diseases..
Look at mean income of THE PEOPLE. All the People; not just the wealthy who skew the scale.
Look at average cost of health care in the U.S.
Look at the inflated size of our military budget that feeds the crony capitalists their blood money as a kick-back for supporting specific policies and politicians..
Number 1? I guess that depends largely on your criteria.. And how tinted nationalism has caused one's lenses to become.
Ace: you self evidently have a computer. Am I correct in assuming you received State funded education through 12th grade? Are you capable of grasping that you are already elite compared to much of the world?
You don't know what you don't know. Once it gets cold and you lose interest, why don't you go travel Africa for some perspective.
Another supporter of and subscriber to negative relativism, I see.
(**See my comment in this thread about revelling in my diabetes and leprosy as a result of my neighbor's cancer.)
Negative relativism achieves zero ideals. Zero upward flight. It is a guaranteed downward spiral, because SOME will ALWAYS have it worse than others. It's a guaranteed fact of history.
No dreams are achieved by staring downward.... Ace...
And I HAVE travelled. And I've lived in foreign countries.
And you're right, in contrast to some, I have a grand life; one that allows me the ability to attend the Occupy movement.
Unlike some, I'm not doing that strictly for my own gain.
I have three children growing up in a world where their dollar holds less and less value each day; partly due to the $16 trillion the Fed gave out at 0% interest to their national and international banker and other buddies, who hold greater leverage on various governments, including yours. Money from thin air that was in addition to the TARP.
Addendum: I also possess a Masters degree (from an accredited Univ.), one BA (from an accredited Univ), a GED, a certificate from an alternative school located in a foreign country, and a lifestyle some would die for.
What does that have to do with the country's real rankings among industrialized, 1st-world nations? In analogy, why compare beluga caviar's flavor to that of shredded cardboard, unless other more comparable and stellar analogies simply don't exist?
I noted we have a high standard of living, and that it plainly came about through CAPITALISM and free markets.
What you are not grasping is that I share your skepticism of the Fed, but that I am not so clumsy as to lump what they do in with what corporations in general do.
And as far as that goes, our inflation rate is minimal even now. Most inflation comes from the banking sector, and they aren't loaning.
As far as staring at the ground, one of is indeed doing that. I have proposed an actionable plan to solve our financial problems, and you have ignored it.
barry, please pardon my and others militance for a moment.
Do I believe ALL corporations possess inherently corrupt power? No.
Do I believe they deserve a second vote beyond that which they already hold as individual members of the group? Hell no..
Do I believe that crony capitalism has allowed SOME corporations to express unjust leverage over the lives of the many commoners (and others), to exercise greater political and capital/market influences? Hell yeah!
I'm not staring at the ground. I'm staring at what is. I am not blinded by my Big Mac, my plush carpet, my Toyota's sound system, or the ads on television. I'm outraged, specifically because I'm NOT staring at the ground. Rather, I'm plagued by the long-term frustration of WHAT COULD BE!! What could've been. What we could still rise to. Period.
Do I think we need an entirely new system? That capitalism is inherently evil? Nope. I think the old system can still produce a good outcome. It can still breed something closer to utopian individual and group freedom.
The issues are not with Soviet food vouchers vs U.S. greenbacks vs. barter. The issues are with respect for the suppliers, retailers, consumers, and every member of the chain that -equally- makes that proverbial conveyor move. The issue is one of capitalism in possession of a soul, and awareness of its reciprocal nature, and the inherent mutual respect that entails, in a -functioning- schematic, and capitalism which doesn't care about any of that, which eventually implodes in one form of chaos or another; as we are seeing from coast to coast here, slowly occurring now. Maybe not so slowly.
The issues are with human greed and mis-use of power. Those issues have existed in ANY system ever created by human beings, as far as I've seen or read of.
I don't blame the gun for murder, or the drug for the over-dose. Those things achieve neither of those without a human component at the helm at one juncture or another; they are inanimate objects or tools, used properly or improperly, according to the handler. Just like our government's appendages. To personify them to the point of autonomous empowerment is to believe in bizarre superstitions.
But to hand the fox the keys to the chicken coop, simply because the fox bribed the watch-dog, this is intolerable, This is what must end. This -is- where we are. No, I'm not looking down. I'm looking straight outward. Across the plain and into the horizon. This -is- where we are.
And congresss (the watch-dog), and the president (the rent-a-shepherd), and the fox (the overly-empowered entities of various identities) are NOT going to disempower themselves voluntarily of what they've thus far successfully stolen.
No, I'm not likely to simply go home when when I become disinterested. I've waited for this spark to ignite for over 40 years now. I've been doing activism for over 30 years; disinterest doesn't apply to my views of where we need to take this thing.
That's good rhetoric. But standing around on a street corner is not going to change anything that happens more than five feet from you. You want a more just, more human, more humane society? Marvelous. How do we get there? Do you have a plan?
For my part, that is the question worth asking. We can easily agree on broad objectives.
Here is my piece on resurrecting the idea of Goodness: http://www.goodnessmovement.com/Page1.html
Here is my piece on the Future, that I would update (if I had time) to include my proposals for completely reworking our banking sector: http://www.goodnessmovement.com/Page8.html
We are more alike than different. Again: my proposal is not vague, and high minded. It is SPECIFIC--within reason--and high minded. Those are two different things.
Yes, barry, I've participated in activism and watched the downward trend long enough to have an idea of what civil disobedience is capable of when staffed by persons who are dedicated.
To dismiss it as mere rhetoric is insulting; it is viable dreams. Not just mine, but of many.
Public exposure of unedited brutality causes the perpetrator to lose viability and respect... even if only over time. Sometimes a painful road for those willing to be beaten.
Interference with 'business as usual,' through passive means, eventually has the capacity to cause both political and private examination of what needs addressed, but only after the pain of not changing exceeds the pain of changing.. As it is with nearly ALL human beings.
The Machine needs a wrench thrown into it that's big enough to cause it to miss a beat or two, long enough for it to stop running smoothly.. That is one of few things those who have benefitted from this tilted scale can understand; their wallets and their public images. And I hope the strength and size of this 'thing' is reaching that capacity.
Rest assured that if it does reach that level of effectiveness, some in power will pull out any stops they can to try to cause a return to the profitable game they once controlled so well.
That is a matter of history.
Those who gain so well from the corruption, for the most part, don't give a rat's butt about good or bad, moral or immoral, or your or my families or blood. They care about profits and perception..... and protecting their own; that's one issue we have in common, they and we.
Whatever keeps you going.
From my perspective, time spent educating people is the only time well spent, and nobody is getting educated there.
Actually, even by GDP per capita, Norway is higher.
And everything costs more.
Norway still tops the US at purchasing power parity.
Fun fact: there's more to the world than GDP, however. The US-France and US-Germany difference shows one fact, there are massive diminishing returns in terms of worked time.
The only reason that the USA has enjoyed the highest and cheapest standard of living for so long is because the Military Industrial Complex and The World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund, have been systematically stealing resources from other countries for the last 50 years.
Read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins to get you started on how the USA (allied with the UK) pillaged the world through debt slavery.
The IMF and World Bank were created by a Soviet agent and a Fabian Socialist. Their intent was to facilitate autocracy the world over, that was to be managed via the UN, whose creation was also chaired by a Soviet agent.
We have a high standard of living because, unlike socialist economies in Africa, Asia, and Latin America, we protect property rights, and support free markets. We have not taken anything from anyone.
And yes, I have scanned Perkins book. His higher calling is as a chauffeur to Fidel Castro. He needs to stop pretending to care about ordinary people.
That is bollocks, barry. The USSR saw that the UN was a potential globalist takeover which is why they demanded veto power over its decisions.
The IMF and the World Bank are essentially US banks, since the US has veto power over them as the largest creators of capital in the world (even though they created this capital out of thin air using fractional reserve banking.)
Scanned != read. Please read the book. Tell me why their exist things like "Fair Trade" charities, if fair trade doesn't exist already? Tell me why Ecudor had to give 50% of it's GDP to the IMF and sacrifice it's school systems, public healthcare systems, infrastructure, etc etc? Iran, Bolivia, Ecudor, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Botswana, Brazil, Venezuela, Rwanda, Jamaica, have all fallen into poverty due to the economic warfare that American based corporations have waged across the planet with the support of the US government over the course of the last Century.
Not to mention the various wars: Korean, Vietnam, Iraq, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and now Libya, and the war drum is still beating for Iran.
The United States is not and never has been a globalist power. But if you fear us, then I for one will support your demand that we withdraw from the UN both our participation and financial support tomorrow. Marvelous idea.
The IMF and World Bank bear roughly the same relation to the international banking system that the Federal Reserve does to our domestic banking system: they are unaccountable,and belong to no one.
Absolutely I agree that they consistently demand that developing nations pursue ruinous economic policies, that are then used by global financial elites for economic predation. I am absolutely in favor of abolishing them root and branch tomorrow. This is not US power, though, per se. They do not operate by our laws, and they do not answer to any sovereign nation or government. They are what Keynes called "semi autonomous bodies within the State", where the State, in this case, is a nascent global government, or was intended to be.
Put simply the role of the IMF was to implement Fascism the world over, and make those nations economically dependent on a global financial system that could be controlled, in my view, by the Soviets.
What people miss is that there is nothing nice about Communism. They have no moral principles. There would be no reason they could not use the tools of Capitalism to further an agenda of global tyranny.
Harry Dexter White was a Soviet agent. Keynes was a Fabian. They came up with the Bretton Woods plan. We must assume that it was congenial to their covert political inclinations.
My treatment of Keynes is here: http://www.goodnessmovement.com/Page8.html
Virtually all of the illnesses that leftists attribute to "Capitalism" are actually predictable and describable outcomes of Leftist politics, which are benign rhetorically, and horrific in actuality.
I am not a "leftist" or a "communist" I agree with everything you say. But, capitalism leads to our current system. It's a system of exploitation, where the exploiters are rewarded and can only end in oligarchy and revolution. It would be madness to start that over again.
Answer me this: if I work hard as a car mechanic, save my money, then open my own shop, how am I being exploited?
What you need to grasp is that the end of Capitalism is not a clean division into haves and have-nots, but the complete inclusion of the have-not's into the Have category. Marx failed entirely to foresee the emergence of a middle class, which has neatly falsified his entire body of thought.
The principle opponents of generalized wealth have been the SOCIALISTS--who are more worried that someone might have too much than not enough--and that group I have called the Monetary Mercantilists, who use the power of creating money to arrogate unearned wealth to themselves. What is ironic is that the second group can and often does use the first group to make money.
Do you want to inflate a countries currency and wreck their economy? Elect Socialists. Does anyone seriously think George Soros is a philanthropist? He helped the Nazis, and seems to have enjoyed it. He is not a nice guy.
You are being exploited because the owner of the shop treats you as a commodity (set wage) in order to expand his own empire (corporate profit.) The odds are immediately stacked against you in opening your own shop because you've been working for years to build up an empire that could probably put you straight out of business.
That is the nature of capitalism - owners get richer, workers get poorer.
Every now and then a rare individual enjoys massive financial success when they discover a gap in the market, but that's why they are called the 1%, isn't it?
What you need to grasp is that the end of Capitalism is inevitable, be it a year or 100 years or 1000 years from now. We will end up in a co-operative based economy whether you like it or not.
I am not a socialist. I am not interested in inflating a countries currency. I don't care about George Soros or any individual.(I don't know why you dropped his name, I'm not interested in him or his agenda)
It is the social system that needs to be altered or we are on a collision course with our own extinction.
This argument has been in play since Marx. It is wrong, completely. 150 years ago wealth was much more concentrated, and the poor much poorer. The simple fact is that 90% of American jobs are in small businesses. If you save your money, you can build an Amway business, or real estate brokerage, or car dealership. I know the owners of many companies, and it is just stupid and ignorant to claim that the deck is stacked.
The only time the deck is truly stacked is when the GOVERNMENT picks winners and losers, and that only happens in SOCIALISM, not Capitalism.
Give it up already. Marx's ideas were in fact formatted scientifically, and were falsified when it was found necessary to use deception and force to MIMIC a worker's revolution, one actually led by a small, full time cadre of professional liars and cuthroats.
It is sad that so many of you want to destroy the best economic system ever created, for what? Chaos and death. Go sit on a pole and rotate. You want riots in the street? You'll find out soon enough, in the US at any rate, what the average American feels.
I hate to rain on your outrage, but weren't the protestors warned ahead of time to vacate the area? You knew this was coming yet you decided to hold your ground and not move. What happened was a result of your decisions, not the police officers. They were just doing their jobs.
You picked a fight and got one.
The job of the police is to protect and to serve - not to bully and harass.
I suggest re-reading our 1st Amendment rights guaranteed by the Constitution:
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
If exercising our rights is "picking a fight" then I hope to keep fighting.
Right on!
Ordering persons to leave a public area who are peacefully assembled under the (damaged) umbrella of the 1st Amendment is tantamount to totalitarianism. Fascism, for a better word.
If I warn you that I'm coming to your home to ransack it, destroy your possessions, and physically harm your family this evening if you don't leave, does that then justify my actions?
Apparently, within the framework of your analysis, it does.
Who empowered the State to violate its own laws and skate scott-free? Who empowered them to give of the public's money to the wealthiest (failures) in the Nation, only to have it go out the back door, nay, the front door, into the pockets as bonuses to the failed CEOs responsible for much of the economic mess?
Pacifists don't pick fights; they receive them. Sociopaths, with or without badges, vend them.
With each report of brutality in violation of the 1st Amendment, more of us are coming. I'm making reservations TODAY.
See ya' there..
Though I'm not a pacifist, per se, I make a commitment to remain free of retaliation and violence.. for my brothers and sisters who've peacefully requested that.
Shame on you, BPD. We can smell your karma all the way up here in Alaska, and it smells worse than low tide in a large harbor.
I hate to rain on your propaganda, but we live in the United States of America which is governed by the United States Constitution, says we have the right to protest peacefully. But the government has filled the original with so much BS - you basically have to ask the govt if you can protest them and then you have to ask them if its ok if you can stand here to do it and then you have to ask them if you can do it between this time and this time.
Seriously, i do not think the founding fathers had intended for us to ask the govt if we can protest the govt and where we can do it and when. As long as we are doing it peacefully then they are violating our rights. Sure we are going to trample some grass, get a life its a plant it grows back. If we were knocking out car windows breaking benches destroying trashcans i could see the point.
We have the right to protest, the govt does not have to right to make us ask for permission and pay permit fees, and then tell us where we can protest. That is the govt controlling us to limit the effectiveness of the protest.
We live in a sheep state. We even have to protest in our sheep pens. They have so many laws to control our rights and limit our rights that pretty soon we will only be able to protest by written petition.
Well said
So were the black shirts in Italy and the Nazi's JUST doing their jobs for the corrupt oligarcy headed by a corrupt dictator.
Just because they were warned does not relieve them of their basic rights (Geneva and ethical) nor the respect for their peaceful demonstration.
Some disgusting old school (think abusive) group think attitudes in Boston.
No the police picked an unfair fight and got smeared with the black karma of their own cowardice and intentional ignorance.
Exactly!
OWS is appalling to me, if anyone's greedy it's those of you trying to take money away from the wealthy. They worked hard and did what they had to in order to get to where they are now. You are not entitled to their success... make something of yourself, don't steal from others.
ob53. Just so you know your comment cannot be taken seriously by anyone who has actually read the news, history books, or been an active participant in society. No one is asking for money. We are demanding accountability.
This is about people who have TRIED FOR YEARS to make something of themselves, to no avail due to the greed and demands of the 1%. Get your facts straight before you comment on something you clearly have no knowledge of.
That's telling the wanna be 1% troll !
You haven't stated any facts yourself either, you're just making general statements. I'm saying that you're just as greedy if you want the money from the wealthy to be distributed more fairly. Everyone acts in their own self-interest so it makes sense that you would want a bigger piece of the pie. That being said, why shouldn't the wealthy 1% be entitled to acting in their own self-interest as well?
the system forces people into self-interest. This is why we are protesting the system.
Wouldn't you rather live in a world where everyone helps each other succeed than one where you shit on someone else so you can succeed?
No, we all have an instinctive self-interest. To say you have no self-interest is to say you don't care about yourself. If you don't care about yourself, you wouldn't be protesting or having this conversation.
I'd rather have a world where we all work for our own wages and not be forced into slavery to work for someone else via socialism. Don't blame the success of others for your failure.
while I agree we all have a self interest, working for the good of everybody, which directly benefits yourself, is not slavery.
working a job where you work for money to put the money back into the system is slavery. Not the other way around.
No, because in a world where everyone shares the profits I would just be lazy and free-ride off other peoples hard work (as would many others). I work hard in order to reap the benefits of my own success.
I would recommend watching Dan Pinks "The science of motivation" on TedX.com a quick google search would find it for you. If personal achievement benefits all of society, it's win-win. For example, Maxwell didn't develop the electromagnetic theorem for monetary gain or personal success, he did it out of curiousity and drive for discovery. That is what the wealth culture perpetuated by the US and their Corporate media has caused humanity to lose in the pursuit of material wealth at the expense of everything else.
Sorry but its not about effort, it's about results. No one cares if you spent 80 hours a week starting a new business if you're idea is garbage. Why reward failure?
Self contradictions make me hot...
Wait, no, they just annoy me. Do you have the slightest bit of intellectual consistancy? Besides, it has fuck all to do with hard work and everything to do with supply and demand - capitalism rewards captive markets like few other systems.
You gotta "love" those who defend the punks on Wall Street. They don't have a fucking clue and just accuse people of wanting shit for free and for wanting to take what others have "earned".
Obviously the value of work is relative to what you are accomplishing. If I go mow lawns for 80 hours a week should I be paid the same as a ibanker working the same hours? Of course not. But by all means, continue to assault my character, I'd expect nothing less from a naive liberal.
So, why is a banker more valuable than someone mowing lawns? Someone who mows lawns does a lot more work and does harder work than a banker does.
Who gets to determine who is more valuable than who?
They do because they control the wealth. This is like when congress votes themselves raises and better benefits.
Right.... and that is part of what is being fought. Bankers really aren't more valuable.... not in terms of production and actual work being performed.
Agreed!
It's all economics, the supply of labour with the knowledge, skills, and abilities needed to be a successful ibanker is extremely low relative to the supply of general labour in a low skilled job. If it were easy, everyone would be a banker. If they were paid equally there would be no merit in going to school and investing so much time and energy into your career.
While I agree the investment of a degree should provide the benefit of a higher wage, this is not categorically the case. Social workers, teachers, and psychologists, for example have to have a minimum of a masters degree, plus licensure that requires continuing education. By your argument, they should be earning at least as much as physicians, and all should be earning more than any banker who has a similar degree, but does not have to invest in continuing education or licensure.
And there are many jobs that are considered unskilled labor but that are very demanding physically and that are high-risk jobs, yet the compensation for those jobs is completely unfair.
miners, for example
"The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics stated that the average wage of a miner in the private industry is about $18 an hour."
Exactly. In a system such as ours, the ones who do the most, the hardest, and the most valuable work usually ARE NOT the ones who are paid fairly.
Compensation is based on supply and demand, not on how hard you work. If blue collar jobs were suddenly really high paying, there would be a massive oversupply of labour and unemployment would sky-rocket. I like Henry Hazlitt's quote "You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while you deprive the community even of the moderate services that he is capable of rendering. In brief, for a low wage you substitute unemployment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation."
Their argument is that they worked harder, are more deserving, etc. I'm calling bs on that!
Me, too!
"Why reward failure?" So the bailout and the the enormous amount of cash the Wall Street Gangsters have received despite screwing up the economy was wrong then..?
In principal I agree that it was wrong. On a smaller scale I absolutely think a bunch of "Gangsters" that screw up should lose everything. I think in this instance though letting the banks fail would've done far more harm to the common man than proceeding with the bailout.
So what youre saying is that we SHOULD reward failure in some cases..? So principally absolutely against rewarding failure (except when the super rich and powerful does it)
"I think in this instance though letting the banks fail would've done far more harm to the common man than proceeding with the bailout."
Or we could organize a system that doesn
t allow the companies to become as big and have as much power in the first place. Then well avoid CEOs and the finacal elite (who by the way are not democratically elected despite having power) screwing up the whole economySo, do you feel the same about the bailout of GM?
Absolutely. Not only did it help mitigate rising unemployment but it also helped inject money into the pocket of consumers which is vital in surviving the recession.
OK.... perhaps the failure of the banks would've been too harmful for our economy. But, do you think those who caused the economic collapse should be punished in any way?
The root of the problem here is that several people, who knew what they were doing, caused the economic collapse on purpose and cashed in on it, while they got help with OUR taxpayer money. I don't care that they've paid it back, if they have.
If I ever got into financial trouble, where would my (the 99%) help come from to keep me from going deeply into debt?
I agree that those people should be held accountable but for a different reason. On a fundamental level the executives are to act in the best interest of shareholders and they clearly weren't doing that by issuing sub-prime mortgages.
Exactly. And that is part of the reason why people are protesting.... because those who are responsible have not been held accountable and have not been punished. Getting a bailout and then paying it back is NOT being punished.
And many on Wall Street are making things up (derivatives) as a phoney way of making millions upon millions.
If it's making them millions and it's sustainable, good on them. I would expect nothing less since it's their job to make shareholders money. I just disagree with how everyone is antagonizing the wealthy.
No one is antagonizing the wealthy. They are protesting those who steal and rip us odd. There is a difference.
So, if someone found a way to steal your money from your bank account, or they found a way to lie to you about buying something, and then you bought it, and then later you found out you got ripped off and that person stole your money and got away with it..... would you be OK with that..... because they figured out a way to make money by ripping you off?
Speculators are the reason gas prices skyrocketed in the U.S.
It seems to me though that you think profiteering and stealing are one and the same
You make it sound like annoying the dog; he might decide to bite you.
Our economy has already been bitten. The free market got free to be a fraud market. Recommended reading: The Big Con.
Oh,but the government did reward Failure by REWARDING wallstreet,the bankers and corps with TARP money. You do know this ?
The feds were payed back the TARP money with interest. It's actually quite ironic how liberals slam the bailout when government intervention at it's core is a liberal policy. Would you rather have had more job loss and a deeper recession?
What planet are you on Troll.?! We are in the deepest recession(depression) ever since the 1930's. More people have lost their jobs= lost homes= DEPRESSION!
Why do you think We The 99% have taken to the streets.
That money was not paid back. The banks,wallstreet sat on it,then gave themselves bounes. They cracked the sytem for their own SELFISH GREED!
Not one of these wallstreet robberbarons has yet to been charged with obstruction of the American banking system. These wallsteeters are CRIMINALS and they were Rewardes for their failure. ..with tax payers money.
If you read my comment you'd see I said "Would you rather have more job loss and a deeper recession?" What this implies is that things could've been much worse relative to the current economic situation, not that things are good now. Also I'm not sure where you got the idea that the TARP money just vanished, most of it has been paid back at this point with interest so I'm not sure why you're complaining. The real culprit (in my opinion) is the war as it's completely trashed the federal budget, but that's a whole other issue.
Compalining. Well I guess Im not alone. Ya best take alook out of your ofc building in Manhatten or wherever you are in the US...there are millions of people in the street across the country COMPLAINING as you say. You got alot more people to convinved that the 2008 bailout wasn't hihwghway robbery. As for me,your "complaint" doesn't hold water. You might try another website(teaparty maybe) where you will find like-minded individuals like yourself.
What about people who have been working their entire lives, but were laid off due to corporate greed. That doesn't bother you at all? I think you need to take a long, hard look at your morals.
your*
This was in response to ob53 by the way. It would be "your idea" not "you're idea"
Nice revolutiongirl08! Much appreciated.
Wow, your ignorance is simply repulsive. Clearly you just don't get it, so why bother even coming to this site?
Celestite, this is exactly the wrong attitude to have. The goal of this movement should be to educate people, not to exclude them. It's easy to forget that not everyone comes to this from the same intellectual and experiential background that many of the protesters have.
We have to elevate their understanding of the fact that it's an attack on the broken system, not them personally or their values. And, if they still refuse to listen, it's our responsibility to accept that and move on, not spend time criticizing them for it and appearing as closed-minded as they are.
Yes I agree, and retract my last statement. You are completely correct leylan and for a moment I let my own negative emotions take over.
It's easy to become frustrated with those who do not understand, and that is definitely something I have been working on lately. Thank you very much for the reality check, it is much appreciated :)
It's OK if people don't understand. But what pisses me off is when those who don't understand come on here and just make derogatory, demeaning, ignorant comments. If they don't understand, then they should ask questions to find out why this protest and others are happening.
Those people either have a sheltered world view, don't know the questions to ask, or are internet/political trolls.
In the case of the first two, we can eventually do something about that; Education and understanding takes time and is an on-going process. If they're in the last category, getting pissed off feeds into exactly what they want and destabilizes the movement.
Agreed.
true
Actually I came here to express my view and better understand why people are so upset with corporate america. Unfortunately emotions overcame most respondents as Leylan rightfully said (although I still detected a hint of condescension in his writing). If you're pissed off and really want to change things, make a logical argument, don't call me "ignorant," and "repulsive."
"OWS is appalling to me, if anyone's greedy it's those of you trying to take money away from the wealthy. They worked hard and did what they had to in order to get to where they are now. You are not entitled to their success... make something of yourself, don't steal from others."
That's exactly what you said. What kinds of responses did you intend to get from that? You DIDN'T accuse with YOUR remarks?
If you came on here to better understand why people are upset, then maybe you should have stated your ideas in a different way.
No condescension intended, just trying to cover all the bases, and I hope you'll check out my direct reply to you below. That said, I don't think striking back and calling people "naive liberals" as you did is productive discourse either. Should you want to learn more about why people are protesting, I'm sure there are a number of people here who could provide applicable and current reading lists of books and news articles.
(Maybe there should even be a section with recommended reading materials on this site?)
Personally, one of my favorite articles so far has been this feature by Douglas Rushkoff. It's an excellent introduction to the movement if you read the whole thing: http://www.wmtw.com/r/29393618/detail.html
They didn
t work hard. They have cash coming out of their ears because they exploit workers, buy politicians and push buttons on a computer. Thats the real theft! And with the enormous bailout in mind, how dare you talk about stealing! http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/And they make up bullshit "products" to sell.
And brains are being destroyed in the process (the advertising for the crap): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpd3grtjkK8
"You pay for the privilege of having your minds destroyed" Gotta love Chomsky!
Yep!
You really have no idea about what we are do you? I suggest you educate yourself and stop being a corporate sheep.
We dont care that the rich is rich. We do care how they obtained that wealth and what they use it for.
Obtaining wealth: Its not through hard work anymore at least not near as much as it use to be. Its all about who you know, what you know, and who you are willing to step on. Look at the banks. I get charged $8 a month FOR FREE CHECKING or it was when i signed up 3 years ago. My account has never been in the negative. It gets waived when i put so much money in it. So essentially i get charged MORE money for being POOR. Now that is class warfare.
Look at new debit card fees. Suddenly they need fees on debit cards to make up for fees that they cant rape merchants with now since Obama put a cap on that. You know back before greed and corruption got out of hand, Banks made money off investments. They paid their bills by taking your money you had in savings and investing it. They give you a small % and they keep the rest. Sometimes its local investing( loans) sometimes its on wall street. Wall street investing is becoming a lot more common. They can make 10-20% plus off your savings account.
Go to the city and find a bank. See that big 15 story bank in the center of that city of 50,000? Thats right, 50k people and a 15 story bank in the center of town. I have 4 banks in a city of 50k near me that all the banks are over 5-6 stories. It is right in prime downtown real estate. Very very expensive. Now go in the lobby. Notice everything is marble? Even some of the floor is marble. See the gold trim? Looks like a 5 star hotel in here.
And that is just the banks.
How about where it goes? Well the money is used to buy politicians and political favors. The money is poorly invested and then we have to bail them out. WHY ARE BANKS MAKING BAD FINANCIAL DECISIONS? Greed.
The whole system is corrupt. It all needs reworked and democracy restored.
Go to a credit union. That's what I am doing this week. It's one way of NOT giving the banks your money anymore.
They can only get away with what the consumer allows. Why shouldn't they act in the interest of their shareholders? You act in the interest of yourself (hence why you so valiantly support this movement). Should they just give you tons of money so you can do stuff you enjoy? Also I'm not sure why you're commenting about banks having nice buildings. They're spending their own money and creating jobs if they're building expensive buildings. I might agree with you but that's simply because it's not in the interest of the banks shareholders.
Yesterday, I read about one of the 99%. He was an 89 year old man from America. He is being thrown out of his house due to "foreclosure" whatever the fuck that means! I ask you to name me any culture, any tribe, any civilization, any people who throw out their elderly onto the street? He held a sign in his hand seeking a very simple thing "Humanity before Profit". Is that too much to ask? Would you like your mother or father thrown out on the street at 89 years of age? Would you yourself like to be thrown out of your home at 89 years of age? Would you? Would you? Answer that question very carefully because you may not know it but there's a God listening and he will judge you by the same means you judge that man. I'm not even from America and I feel compassion for him yet you, you'd prefer to let things continue as they are in full knowledge of the absolutely disgusting way your country is treating its elderly, it's youth, it's weak and it's vulnerable. God bless America.
Consumers have no power. That is the problem. They have us so divided and fighting each other we have no power because our power is in a group. Remember the phrase "united we stand, divided we fall"? Well they have been dividing us for years.
We arent allowing it anymore. You contradict yourself. You tell us we allow it but then when we stand up to fight it, you pretty much tell us we shouldnt.
Your just not getting it about the banks. They rob the poor so they can have fancy office buildings in prime real estate while the Officers get mega bonuses for ripping off poor people.
Stop being a sheep and open your eyes.
I agree that ob53's statements, many of them, are contradictory.
You had me until the last sentence, anotherone773. When you started calling names, you went from having an intelligent, well-spoken point to being petty.
Calling people "sheep" is arrogant, unproductive to discourse, and pushes their narrative that OWS is made up of a small group of self-absorbed people.
"Calling people "sheep" is arrogant, unproductive to discourse," - not all. Sheep and corporate sheep are very common terms. I use them very often to refer to people including myself. We are all sheep. I often use sheep and sheep pens ( dividing us into groups) as a way to convey what we are like to them.
It is not an insult, just simply how one is treated. I was a sheep, I believed change could be brought if we could just get the right politicians in there. I would blame specific groups. I was sheep in my pen. I am a liberal i normally side with dems on many issues.
But then i realized in the overall picture libs and cons really want the same general goal. Sure we have different ideas to reach that goal but we still really want the same overall goal.
You see i broke out of my pen. I cast off the corporate chain. And i wondered over to the cons pen. And i listened to what they were saying. What they were REALLY saying. And then i had an epiphany. Overall we really want the same basic things. We just have different roads we would like to see taken to reach that goal.
I been what you might call an armchair protester ever since then. I spend literally 12 plus hours a day "protesting" via inet. I inform people of our cause, explain what is really going on what we are about, etc. I am tied to staying around my house atm, so i do what i can do from home.
But an insult no. That is no more an insult then calling someone a con(servative) or a lib(eral).If someone takes it that way, then they are being overly sensitive.
Charging for a "free checking account" when you don't keep a certain balance and charging ridiculous fees for other petty things.... I guess you really don't understand.
I'm saying fight it with money. If banks are charging these fees for no reason, go start a bank that doesn't charge fees and make buckets of money. Blaming your troubles on the rich does little to alleviate the situation.
Um... yeah.... anyone can go out and start a bank. What an ignorant comment. Ripping people off is what you seem to think is fair. Just because the purpose of a business is to make money doesn't mean it has the right to do it any way it can.
Stealing! Are you kidding?! The 2008 bailout was the greatest thief by the wealthy corporations that the American people have seen yet to date. The wealthy corporation,the banks and wealthy individuals(Koch brothers) continue to exploit and rob the middle/working class today. How do they do this... rising gas,food and utilitiy cost. Overburden taxation(which goes straight to the wealthy that are pulling puppet strings of bought out politicos) on the middle-class.
Our backs are are about to crack,and We The People cannot and will not take this burden no longer.
. Finally what We The People need to do is negociate with the BPD and NYPD through friends and relations. I know that many of these officers of the law have peole thys know are in the protest. The sooner the police force realize that THEY ARE PART of the 99%,the sooner they will serve,protect and represent US,the 99%. Wisconsin did it,we can too.
How are they robbing you personally?
They got MY tax money after they purposely caused the financial crisis.
@ob53 - OWS is not (save for a few individuals) advocating the "taking of" of money away from any one individual or class. Primarily, what the group seems to be oriented around is advocating for justice and fairness. Since the financial collapse, none of the bankers and wall street execs have ever been held criminally accountable for a lot of their reckless behavior that took us to the brink. A lot of them avoided responsibility by firing scores of innocent workers, and refuse to hire new ones. Others, set up comfortable "golden parachutes" if they had to depart. And because of current tax and corporate laws, many execs pay taxes at a ratio significantly less than their employees, and many corporations have undue influence over congress and who gets elected.
As a red-blooded American, I am proud to pay my fair share of taxes. It's the cost I accept of living in one of the greatest countries in the world. All I personally ask is that I'm given a fair shake at making a success of myself. And right now, the system of achieving the American and most other dreams has been suppressed for the benefits of the few.
For those of you calling ob53 and others like them ignorant, please stop. It's an unproductive and arrogant term to use, and alienates people who have not had the experience of how to approach this issue on a systemic or intellectual level. Remember how many stupid mistakes you made and all the stupid things you said before you learned about all this stuff, and be patient. Not everyone can figure out these things by themself.
And if they're still aggressive, refuse to listen and/or are obviously trolling, move on to educating somebody else.
I agree 100% that more regulation is needed and that hose directly involved should be held criminally accountable. One simply has to look at the performance of the Canadian economy to see the merits in financial regulation. What I take offence to is the underlying tone a lot of supporters have wherein they relate wealth to theft. I think people who accomplish great things should be rewarded appropriately. Being a hedge fund manager is by no means a simple task, and if the market is willing to pay out millions for one then so be it.
Relating wealth to inherent maliciousness is certainly a fallacy. The real focus should be correcting corruption in the system, and making sure that it is a system that works and gives opportunity for all to succeed.
That said, while having wealth shouldn't be seen as inherently criminal, I do believe it is criminal to exploit that wealth for personally beneficial political ends, as politics affect society as a whole. Everyone should get an equal say in how they're treated by the government and how they want entities like corporations which operate within the nation to be treated.
And while conceptually it may be financially beneficial to go into certain careers (i.e. hedge fund managers), the system should also be set up so that those who support it, i.e. educators, blue color workers, infrastructure developers, etc. can survive and get paid a living wage. We can't all be hedge fund managers.
Borders Books, which was headquartered where I live, had the audacity to ask the federal government, after it filed for bankruptcy (and is now out of business), if it could pay its top execs bonuses. What? You file for bankruptcy, and then you want to give millions to your execs? Where the hell would the money have come from? Why are you going bankrupt if you can give out millions?
And people wonder why these protests are happening.
this is an incredibly ignorant comment. many of the supporters of OWS are protesting because they have TRIED to earn a decent living, but cannot now due to the vast exploitation of workers. Also, i recommend listening to the song Uncle Sam Goddamn by Brother Ali... you may learn a thing or two
it's pretty easy to earn a decent living. Go to school, get a job, profit.
Wow! It's so easy! Thanks! Why didn't I think of that? Oh yeah - because no one should be forced to live another's dreams. Another's methods of attaining "life, liberty, and happiness." Success at all costs is no success at all and to admire others for terrible deeds to attain monetary ideas of success would seem to indicate that you have been compromised yourself as to the position money has in your life as opposed to human rights. It should be assumed at this point that nothing anyone says here no matter how well explained will change your position and that you are simply a troll here to poison. If everyone could simply get a job there'd be no 9 percent unemployment and no one would be taking to the streets. Many have crippling student debt because education is no guarantee of employment. Many jobs are unsuitable, and desperately seeking one because "life is unfair, get over it" is not compatible with the aims of "life, liberty, and happiness". As explained ad infinitum in the comments above, the current political/business climate has made it nearly impossible for people without already existing capital investment to create small businesses and survive without being crushed by oppostiion. Business is not like a football team. Competition is not a goal unto itself, otherwise there would be no anti-trust laws, and all who think otherwise could give a $#!% about the other 99%.Go ahead and be successful in a vacuum. Please. Everyone relies on somebody else for something. The Completely Independent Self Made Man is a myth.
there will always be people under other people in a large group , but when the taxes paid in by the larger mass of those at the middle layers and loss of democratic representation to bankers , any chance they get , they should speak to that , you gotta problem with that. . you think this recession grew from a wild seed , this problem has been planted and nurtured by big money, and then harvested and held close , not to be shared . there is no shortage of money or material , but the bubble burst and it is a greed problem that stops those who could do more from letting someone have a deal . the money is still here . its stored, its sitting, its artificial value disappeared , but the real values that are left are more than enough to start helping those who can and will work , its all manipulation now. there will only be a few more chances before the manipulation will be over and we will have a real problem not a manufactured one. this is not a conspiracy it is social evolution , and a moral and spiritual failure , actually the spiritual part would state that it is conspired , by demons , as part of a great shift toward a one world government and monetary system , but that is part of a biblical teaching . I suspect that a lot of people in this chat may not take that seriously.
So much conspiracy bullshit, do you think 9/11 was done on purpose and apollo 11 was a hoax?
But you see, that's the thing. A) the number of jobs out there are small, why do you think there are so many people unemployed? B) With the capitalist system, so much is chance. Note the name of the movement is about wall street, not "destroy democracy." C) There's a big difference between discrediting the corrupt, flawed system of lobbying (aka bribing) and a world where company heads sit in meetings and their workers are breaking their backs to make sure they have bargaining chips in those meetings.
Eos, please help me with my math. There are currently over 15 million unemployed Americans, and only 3 million job openings (many of which specify that unemployed people will not be considered). So tell me, how can everyone get a job and profit?
Disclosure, I have a masters degree in economics and work abroad.
The unemployment problem is really an issue with an over supply of labour created by an artifical wage floor. As unpopular as it would be, lowering min wage would lower unemployment and eliminate the dead weight loss of the system in it's current state. Either way if you have any potential whatsoever it's not difficult to compete for the entry level jobs.
"Success" does not equal skill or usefulness. The head of Merrill Lynch and his hand-picked guys wrecked an entire company. The CEO walked off with over $150,000,000.
Carly Fiorna was a disaster as CEO of HP but walked away with a bonus voted her by the board of directors as a going away present. They said the amount was a secret but widely reported as $14,000,000. The most recent HP bad CEO also had a successful exit.
Look up "agency problem" to see the research on CEO's and boards of directors who bleed companies for their own benefit. The cases are so numerous and daunting! When you get high enough on the ladder, your hiring contract often includes a firing bonus if you are a dud. They call this a "golden handshake".
Pension funds, and OWS, are trying to change the system that supports this.
You have mischaracterized this movement. If gov't was still responsive to the pulic, there would be no need to protest by occupying public space. A protest of the 99% against the 1% is anger at being marginalized of our own public process (and cut off from our own public resources) so that the 1% can pick the public's pocket.
The austerity measures being put forward are a means to pick our pockets. Every country that has faced this kind of economic restructuring has faced this problem which is why LAtin America rebuked the IMF and World Bank - then emerged as an economically significant region. This austerity BS in which they will cut off the founding to our local governemtns is merely to ensure that they can continue to use our public resources to wage war, and insure risky wall street gambling.
Perhaps more and better research can assist you in a more accurate picture of what's happening here? Maybe not...
Were you thinking of any articles or books in particular to suggest when you made this comment?
I'm starting to wonder whether, for the sake of elevating the discourse, we should collectively come up with a list of easily-accessible intellectual resources to educate people about the movement and the issues behind it. I know the common trope is for people to "educate themselves" but a lot of people don't know where to start in regards to social issues when they haven't been consciously involved with them before.
I think a list of reading material is a great idea.
Salon, CounterPunch, Democracy Now, Various national Censuses, Current economic studies of quality of life in this country and other 1st world nations, TruthOut, Reader Supported News, various home-spun media outlets to include WeAreChange.org, The ACLU, the results of the audit of the Fed that virtually NO ONE broadcast (left right or center) available for reading and down-load at Bernie Sanders' (Vt) web page, International Red Cross, and heck, even LewRockwell.com (to be fair to the free-thinking marketeers who are supportive of tackling corruption in government and the Oligarch's crony capitalism).
The spin in the mainstam second-hand media is so rapid and intense that most of it makes me dizzy just to open the front page or screen.
With all due respect, those are organizations, not specific direct resources on the issues we're discussing here.
I apologize, maybe I wasn't specific enough in what I was asking. I was talking about specific 'foundation-building' materials to get the average layman's understanding off the ground, i.e. the first article/book (although preferably an article, since attention spans on the internet are short) you read in this topic. It's all well and good to give someone a list of websites to follow, but if they have to wait until something accessible gets posted, they may lose interest.
I admit my query is somewhat self-motivated. I myself am not heavily well-versed in political and political economy systems and issues, having only some intellectual exposure based on experiences in higher education. I would love to have a tiered system of articles I could work my way up (in terms of difficulty of understanding) to be more well informed on the topics we're discussing here.
Sorry, I probably won't be providing links to specific articles, but, within ALL of those sources, persons can (if they're willing and motivated) identify numerous/many more accurate descriptions of the goals, purposes, actors, operations, etc., of what is occurring now within the Occupy movement.
I'm trying to make arrangments to get my behind to Wall St., get press credentials in order, and aid or remedy what is tremendous upheaval in my own personal life at the moment, which I won't go into.
However, in correction, the Fed audit -is- a specific published article (HUGE in number of pages), and revealing as to why this is almost everyone's fight, not only here in the U.S., but abroad, as well. Much of that $16 trillion the Fed doled out was given not just to U.S. corporations, but to international interests as well, to include Deutch Bank, etc...
Much of the $16 trillion also went to funding the war. I'm shocked at how upset people are with the bailout which was designed to mitigate the impact of the recession while the US is burning trillions in the middle east for no reason.
I went back and re-read your comment, as well as mine, ob53.
I think I need to clarify that while the selling point(s) of the TARP included saving the indirectly-affected persons from further implosion and economic destruction, the fact is that in MANY cases, the TARP money was mis-applied, and in the most nauseating of those cases, it was handed out in millions of dollars in bonuses to some of the least deserving persons in those failed systems; persons who were likely guilty of criminal conduct were rewarded insteead of being prosecuted.
In addition, research shows that corporations rarely hire persons simply because the corp. has more money at its disposal. They hire them if the hiring benefits the corp. by virtue of lucrative tax credits, or if they need a job filled. Nothing more and nothing less.
I believe you're correct. But the wars, at this juncture, are, in my opinion, merely more crony capitalism (merged with blinded Nationalism) on two fronts. Feeding the DoD contractors their inflated profits, and having a foot in the door for the chosen entities when discussion of control or influence over resources hits the table. (water, oil, turf, etc.)
If you idiots would spend as much as time using the innovative part of your brain instead of protesting you would actually have something. The last time I checked anyone can invest in the market. Quit buying smartphones, xbox360's, flat screen tvs, cigarettes and alcohol and invest so you can get a piece of the pie. This is the easiest country in the world to make a living and you morons are still complaining.
Ahh, I see you once had a desire to be a Job Service employee, reader of crystal balls, AND an economist... But apparently did neither, and would've failed at all three.. What protected, safe room are you hanging out in now?
By the way, I don't use an X-Box (or own one), I don't have a SmartPhone (plain old nearly-antique cell phone with pre-paid minutes that does little more than call people, etc.), don't own a flat-screen television, or even spend very much time glued to t.v., I don't smoke cigarettes, and I drink one beer per day on some days, and none on others, as I really grew tired of the way that some folks behave when intoxicated...
As to investing.. in what?
A good acquaintance of mine owns his own successful electrical business. He's got investments on Wall St. that began at $100,000. Take a poke in the dark as to what his investments are worth now. Go ahead. Considering the fact that the market's past is plotted for you, all you're missing is the information re. the time-frame during which he established his stock holdings.
Now look at the condition of 401ks in the U.S., and the best current advice from knowledgeable economists relating to them..
Then ask yoursefl who plays with whose money on Wall St. (and elsewhere) with zero capital of their own, taking risks with others' money. Missed that part in your lofty education, did you??
By the way, I'm probably old enough to be your father or grandfather..
You may be old enough to be my Father if you are in your 60's or in today's standards 40's. Sounds like you need to spend more time hanging out with your friend who obviously has the drive to own and operate his own business. The markets are always going to fluctuate regardless of the market conditions. Patience is the key. What separates most from the successful people of this country is discipline. There are some great companies out there that have solid operations whose stock is undervalued that is almost guarantee to make some significant gains in the upcoming months. Instead of whining and complaining about our great system in which does have flaws, get off your ass and make something happen. Nobody is going to walk out of any of these buildings and write you and the rest of your dope smoking hippies a check. As a matter of fact I am sure there are several office pools going on in those buildings waging when you morons realize that and go back home to their mommies house who will protect them from the harsh realities of the free market driven by competition. Age doesn't always equal wisdom.
Good Lord! You actually think the "harsh realities of the free market driven by competition" is a virtue? Is something you want? Well, I guess if it serves you personally and you don't think your situation will ever change you probably do. Without an understanding of what creates upward mobility and how that process can be stymied by various forces a lack of empathetic ability become apparent - I am so sorry for you! Ultimatley this leaves you no where to go except to make ad hominum statements such as "morons realize that and go back home to their mommies house who will protect them". God Bless you for your kindness dear sir!
By the way, would that be the same competition-driven market the U.S. government and Federal Reserve just gave a cumulative 16+ trillion dollars to (closer to 19 trillion when you combine the TARP with what the Fed let out the back door), in order to rescue it from itself, after it more or less bought your representation out from under you.. apparently with your blessings?
The same folks wagering in their pools inside those office buildings who took those trillions, no, requested those trillions of dollars, and translated them into hundred-million dollar bonuses for the same idiots who helped to cause the failure?
'Cause if that's the type of job you're saying I should get, one where failure equates to the personal, individual receipt of a hundred and fifty million in bonus pay, taken from public funds, after I assist in totally screwing up this economy, only to walk away, scott-free, without being prosecuted for my fraud and graft, then, well, I'd guess my conscience would briefly get into an arm-wrestling match with my greed and wallet...
But in the end, unlike the parasites you're defending, I'd have to go with merely maintaining my current quality of life.
As to getting off my lazy butt.. Well, I live in a 5-star-plus home in the beautiful rural sub-arctic, I possess numerous university degrees, I have 2 large freezers full of meat and fish (some of which I'm bringing to Wall St. to feed folks), and I have three kids, all of whom perform above average in school, with no criminal records; one of whom is a Nat'l Honors student, with scholarships.
And now guess how much of any of that protects -them- from having to pay the bills for the thievery and economic insecurity that those you defend just laid on ths country...
And you think I'm lacking in wisdom??
Catch a friggin' clue, dude.
And yes, I'm closer to 60 than 40, by a fair shot.. Well-travelled, well-read, and apparently with a better understanding of both governments and markets than you possess.. Not to mention being much less blinded by nationalist tripe and oligarch-worship..
I see you're still imagining that you know something about anything or anyone.
Subscribing to theological parables and fables doesn't always translate into learning the message contained therein, either. Nor does it inherently imply the bearer has any insight into what or who s/he's dealing with.
But it does, some times, allow folks to wear their religious beliefs on their shirt-sleeves, for a variety of often-bizarre reasons. And it clues others in as to what they're dealing with. (Thanks for that heads-up)
So, this was merely market fluctuation? Back to that economics class for you, I guess....
With your numerous college degrees and genius children maybe you can answer this question. Why are your liberal buddies marching on the recipients of the TARP (which has been paid back with interest) instead of the idiots that distributed the TARP in D.C.? That is the part that is not adding up to me. Why are you not objecting to the almost trillion dollar stimulus that was ineffective to say the least. I think we all agree there are some serious issues within our financial systems that needs to be corrected. But to pile up at the wrong place supported by your Liberal buddies in D.C. who I am almost certain are subsidizing this drunken protest is asinine.
Wall street seems to be the easiest to blame but I think even yourself with your liberal education that was more than likely taught by socialist professors realize the majority of the blame can be put on Dodd and Frank. And yes it is bigger than those two in the whole scheme of things. Wall street and mortgage companies acted like a 2 year old kid would do when the Government gave them a blank check, go crazy in the candy store. Sure the Fed act of 1913 should be roll backed but probably will not.
I guess my theory is that there are serious issues that we can focus on that are probably not going to be reformed. But the American dream is still achievable with a little perseverance, will-power, and discipline. I think what is consistent with most of the wall st. protesters is that they are disappointed because their mommies and daddies when they were around told them that if they go to college, get a degree then there will be a nice job waiting for them when they graduate. Forget teaching your children the free market system and how it works and how to handle adversity. Another problem that is consistent with these kids is that a lot of these people did not think their area of study that well and pursued degrees in areas where their are little to no demands. Now that they have nowhere to turn they start the blame game. The last time I checked the blame game does not put food on the table.
As far as the parables are concerned I do understand what lies within the ones I have studied. I also know that the problem is this country with most of our young people is moral poverty. Anyone that will stand in the street for days and days and complain about not having work is definitely lacking character IMO.
liberal buddies - that's a good one. Divide and conquer. Force the form to define itself as something you can manage instead of offically accepting it's true aims. The stimulus was far from ineffective. You're just another "kill the Fed" libertarian Ron Paul acolyte. Probably my friend Matt who likes to use biblical bullshit to "prove" that Jesus supported what is laughingly called "free markets". Poor kids - they didn't study what they were told and didn't go to church everyday so now they're a bunch of ungrateful little twits who need to fuck off and die. Can't come up with a real solution so I'll argue ad hominum about the character of this movement. This isn't the "follow me I have the answer" movement - if you have something to seriously add then go to a General Assembly and find out how to make your voice heard in a reasonable manner.
Firstly, do you even have any clue as to how many totally inaccurate statements you just included in your response?
I hear/see lots of Flush Limburger's and Sean Hannity's bogus talking points in your reply, but remember that when Flush was called on the carpet for his inaccuracies, he defended himself by stating that he's ..."an entertainer, not a (news service.)"
Yep, my kids perform well above average, but I guess I'd have to take a peek at the test scores from some specifically relevant tests to ascertain whether they reach the mark of genius or not. They may.. Haven't looked closely.
No, you don't seem to understand much about the parables in your book of choice, or you wouldn't write as you do, or conclude what you do. You seem to be one of those guys who missed much of the New Testament, apparently preferring the red-neck, nationalist version of the Old Testament.
No doubt Jesus was a white republican neo-con with blonde hair and a passion for ostricizing, stoning or jailing those who smoked hashish back then. Or not...
Liberal? I'm a registered (smalll government) republican who signed up with that party in order to effect change from within... Obviously that didn't make it real far, due to the fact that I didn't grease anyone's hands with copeous quantities of Benjamin Franklins when the time was ripe.
In fact, I'm a lower-case 'l' libertarian, who despises corrupt and intrusive government, whether it comes with an R or a D attached to it. plain and simple.
I've petitioned the federal and state government(s) for decades, started PACs, organized protests, forfeited privacy, received death threats and surveillance over the years, etc. Have I gone to the government with complaints. For years!
Why protest Wall St.? Because the government isn't about to cut off their blood money that 'Citizens United' legalized, but which existed more covertly for decades, and in any bribery situation, there's a payee and a payor. Both of them -hate- it when the light gets turned up really bright. Both hate to have their neighbors become better informed about their criminal activity, and, so, exposing either party, preferably both, by illumination and education, is the desirable outcome. Making it as uncomfortable as absolutely possible, when ever possible.
How many citizens in this nation do you suppose even know about the $16+ trillion dollars the Fed let out the back door? Information from the audit is available on-line, and that audit, the first in over 100 years, was forced by a rider attached and supported by the likes of Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul, and a handful of others. They used the the sold-out Congress' BS strategies to attach something that Bernanke prayed would never come to pass..
Did you see the news about the Fed audit on the tube? Radio?
Why would mainstream media virtually black out the first audit of the federal reserve in over 100 years?
PRIVATE CORPORATE MONEY HAS TAKEN CONTROL OF ALMOST EVERY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT IN THIS NATION, and has poisoned even much of the 4th estate!
And you think the Dems are sponsoring this protest? Really? Why, 'cause Hannity and Flush told you so?
Remember Clinton and Tyson? John Kerry's stock holdings in DoD contractors' stocks? Yeah, you bet, the Dems want to make hay about the ending of corporate influence (Not!!). Both parties are whores; they simply serve different johns, and then argue about who has higher moral character and greater virtue.Seen it, gagged on it, and I ain't buying it no more.
But just to be thorough, when I come to Wall St. I'll make a point of going onward to D.C. to waste some time talking to my federal representatives, and even hang out in the Park there for a while.
But know this; when I call my federal reps' telephones, or the governor's office in Alaska, or my regional reps in Alaska, and the Prez of BP in Scotland calls them at the same time, a guy who's not even a friggin' citizen, ask yourself whose call those folks take, and who gets an aid who started their job two days ago.
THAT'S why turning up the heat on the SOURCE of the money is a necessary part of this.
So I'd rather you either get on board to straightening this thing out (if you haven't already), or get out of the way, 'cause arm-chair quarterbacks and by-standers full of misinformation are a dime a dozen, and serve little purpose other than to obfuscate the issues.
BTW, if ALL that money was paid back, how come my government still owns substantial shares in GM???
Amen. So sick of hearing "Why don't you protest the Fed?" Wall Street is where it begins. STOP. LISTENING. TO. TALK. RADIO. Free yourself - if only for a month even - to form your own opinions.
I am sold! I don't know who you are but, don't stop the message. Clearly, your voice is one that has been crying in the wilderness for some time and now is the time for all to hear.