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Retribution Against the Financial Elite

Police Reattempting Raid On Occupy Los Angeles

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 30, 2011, 12:54 a.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

Police are once again attacking Occupy Los Angeles after occupiers successfully defended Solidarity Park a few nights ago. Watch the events unfold live via Spencer Mills:

Live Updates

  • 1:16 a.m. EST: Occupy LA being surrounded by police
  • 1:17 a.m. EST: LA NLG present, numerous press agencies, Russia Today...
  • 1:20 a.m. EST: Occupy Philly received third and final warning, local ABC news crew left at 1:10 local time.
  • 1:24 a.m. EST: Occupy Philly may be relocating? Unconfirmed. Protesters at 18th and Locust st.
  • 11:27 p.m. PST (Los Angeles): It's still possible to get into Solidarity park by Little Tokyo/Arts District train stop, according to @OakFoSho.
  • 2:29 a.m. EST (Philadelphia): Scanners report nine arrests.
  • 11:30 p.m. PST (Los Angeles): LAPD set up a perimeter 3 blocks from the park. Also bringing more reinforcements.
  • 2:50 a.m. EST (Philadelphia): Police using bikes as weapons.
  • 2:57 a.m.: Bike cops leaving.
  • 3:11 a.m. EST (Philadelphia): 12 or so protesters still in park, surrounded by police, Legal has all information on them.
  • 12:15 a.m. PST: LAPD marching in.
  • 12:18 a.m. PST: Hundreds of LAPD officers with various biohazard suits (Mills' audio reports), rubber bullet guns (Via Mills) and zipties.
  • 12:20 a.m. PST: Visual confirmation of bio-suits, Mills claims 1300 officers.
  • 12:28 a.m. PST: LAPD declares unlawful assembly. Giving 10 min (unconfirmed) window to leave.
  • 12:33 a.m. PST: Occupy LA is staying in the square. Mic checking the police. "The people of California do not yield their sovereignty to the agencies that serve them"
  • 9:06 a.m. EST: Final Reports of 200 arrests in LA and 50 in Philly.

Or from the CBS helicopter:

Occupy Philly

324 Comments

324 Comments


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[-] 14 points by samplocracy (26) 2 years ago

solidarity from london. we are having the biggest strike in the last 50 years today. occupy everywhere!

i've set up a new blog on direct democracy... you can check it out on: http://samplocracy.wordpress.com

[-] 9 points by shooz (26709) 2 years ago

Stay strong England!!!

The rich need a taste of austerity.

[-] 0 points by theCheat (85) 2 years ago

Don't you think that if you receive a benefit you should pay something for it?

[-] 1 points by shooz (26709) 2 years ago

????????

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6275) 2 years ago

Direct democracy is the way to go: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

Keep it up londoners. Striking is a very efficient way to fight the wealthy.

The Occupy Movement should also organize an increasing number of strikes in my opinion: http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1321101669_the_transition_phase_.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gUgfyVt3mE


Keep up the good work, occupiers and londoners. Greetings and solidarity from Norway.

struggleforfreedom

[-] 3 points by mountaineer (16) 2 years ago

Dude....enough with the anarchist/socialist trash. This is country is not going to turn into an anarchist/socialist what ever else you call it. I have agreed with a lot of the things that OWS talked about in the beginning, but not so much now. And I am frankly getting tired of coming to this site and seeing this stuff that you keep pushing on everyone......ENOUGH WITH CHOMSKY!!!!!

[-] 3 points by genickgenau (22) from New York City, NY 2 years ago

Why not? Won't be worse than a zionist/plutocratic what else you call it.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6275) 2 years ago

Chomsky is one of the smartest guys on the planet, he deserves to be heard by as many as possible.I only express my opinion and give links that deserve attention, including to my blogpost for further in debth in my opinions. If you hate my links so much, dont fkn click on them.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Just because he may be smart doesn't mean we're all going to agree with him.

By all means, go ahead and keep posting your campaign for Chomsky. But this forum is drowning in anarchists, Chomsky this and Direct Democracy that. More and more people will continue to get sick of it and leave.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6275) 2 years ago

Anarcho-Syndicalism simply just means expanding democracy to workplaces and communities. Is that really that radical, if you think about it? If one like the idea of democracy one should agree that working for libertarian socialsm is the best.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I only like democracy on a small scale. Like, when I'm with a group of friends and we are deciding where to go for drinks tonight. We vote then drink. Democracy in action is a beautiful thing. When used properly. For the purposes of drinking after.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6275) 2 years ago

Anarcho-Syndicalism is about decentralization, building democracy from the bottom up. I think a general rule of thumb should be that the more things in society affect you, the more say you should have on those things. In other words, democratic workplaces and communities cooperating with other workplaces and communities thru federations etc. on necessary common tasks. http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1320873951_the_society_we_should.html

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 2 years ago

It is shocking how the media will make a quick mention of blatant economic curruption and then rarely address the issue again. Whether it is Paulson, Bernanke, Corzine, Golman Sachs, etc... They report the bare minimum of these MAJOR fraudulent and illegal activities because they have to display some miniscule degree of credibility, then their motto becomes, "out of sight, out of mind..." Meanwhile, much lesser offenses are reported on a daily basis. But whose fault is it...? It's the fault of the vapid, corn-fed, buffet eating, zombie-like, thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another American citizens who are more concerned about how the real house wives of beverly hills are whoring around then understanding how our elected representatives have completely whored themselves out to the US Corporation. Did anyone consider why the Fed jumped in yesterday to increase liquidity in the markets the day after S&P rating agency downgraded the 8 major US banks....? Because a major part of their survival, not the 99%'s, is directly tied to the success or failure of those banks....Shocking! Oh, as it turns out, the nuclear reactor in Japan was in much worse shape then then government officials originally let on...Shocking ! Yeah, and fracking for natural gas is not contaminating our water supply... F*#K Where's Waldo...Where's Jon Corzine ! To those who say, "not everything is a conspiracy,blah, blah, blah, etc.." I say, based on all of the blatant fraudulent activity and other information that governments have attempted to suppress since 2008 and prior... There is more reason to believe in conspiracies and government cover-ups than not." ahhh, venting feels goooood.....but accomplishes nothing on this website.....you guessed it, SHOCKING !!! If you don't think for yourselve, the government will do it for you.

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 2 years ago

It is shocking how the media will make a quick mention of blatant economic curruption and then rarely address the issue again. Whether it is Paulson, Bernanke, Corzine, Golman Sachs, etc... They report the bare minimum of these MAJOR fraudulent and illegal activities because they have to display some miniscule degree of credibility, then their motto becomes, "out of sight, out of mind..." Meanwhile, much lesser offenses are reported on a daily basis. But whose fault is it...? It's the fault of the vapid, corn-fed, buffet eating, zombie-like, thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another American citizens who are more concerned about how the real house wives of beverly hills are whoring around then understanding how our elected representatives have completely whored themselves out to the US Corporation. Did anyone consider why the Fed jumped in yesterday to increase liquidity in the markets the day after S&P rating agency downgraded the 8 major US banks....? Because a major part of their survival, not the 99%'s, is directly tied to the success or failure of those banks....Shocking! Oh, as it turns out, the nuclear reactor in Japan was in much worse shape then then government officials originally let on...Shocking ! Yeah, and fracking for natural gas is not contaminating our water supply... F*#K Where's Waldo...Where's Jon Corzine ! To those who say, "not everything is a conspiracy,blah, blah, blah, etc.." I say, based on all of the blatant fraudulent activity and other information that governments have attempted to suppress since 2008 and prior... There is more reason to believe in conspiracies and government cover-ups than not." ahhh, venting feels goooood.....but accomplishes nothing on this website.....you guessed it, SHOCKING !!! If you don't think for yourselve, the government will do it for you.

[-] 2 points by Thunderhands (32) from National City, CA 2 years ago

The occupy Movement is censoring certain comments!!! My comments have been removed because of the truthfulness of what I say.. but I'll keep saying it!! When the powers to be feel like they are losing control they will take decisive and brutal action,,even marshal law if need be! It's just a matter of time. The people have had enough of being lemmings on the treadmill of slavery to the man. The occupy movement was just a match that ignited a bigger fire. The fire of freedom that burns in people's hearts. It's no longer about the Occupy movement but about the light that,, that match revealed. The light of self worthiness, self empowerment, and in layman's terms we don't have to take this abuse anymore because there is power in numbers! Yeah! you-know the wake up call!

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[-] 7 points by stefano60 (13) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

something must be going down right now; there are at least SEVEN helicopters hovering over the area now, it feels like we are under a military occupation (oh, wait,we are!) ... way to go, LAPD, keep wasting our tax money and resources chasing after the poor and the hopeless. keep doing your masters' work, pathetic morons. one day even you gestapo puppets will realize how badly you have been screwed by the ones in charge!

[-] 5 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

now we know what a wedding party in Afghanistan feels like. they are killing Afghanis in Afghanistan and attacking americans in america! GLOBAL SOLIDARITY against the fascist war machine!

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[-] 1 points by proudofOKC (361) 2 years ago

Did you get out? If you're still there, you're going to get arrested. The ustream guy left so we can't see anything anymore. We need people willing to stream from within the crowds to show what the cops do up until the moment they arrest the camera person and take their phone. If you're still there, solidarity, good luck. We're pooling money for bail, but the system is shit, so you'll be there awhile. Good luck. Bless.

[-] 0 points by GetaBrain (22) 2 years ago

No dumbass, you are the ones wasting money. People have to clean up after your filthy dirty asses. You are hurting the people you think you want to help. Dopes.

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[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

The

" POOR AND THE HOPELESS "

Are you talking about OWS as a whole or just yourself.

[-] 2 points by stefano60 (13) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

i am talking about the people who were there; i was not, i happen to live close enough to see the ridiculous display of force. i do not consider myself poor (although when compared to your 1% buddies, we all are), and i am not hopeless yet; as long as there are still people who have the guts to stand up to this travesty of a democracy, there is hope.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Gee, and you seem hurt that people "think you're anti-OWS"

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Think what you want - stick it where you want. It is a free country, vitriol, Nice name - you sure live up to it.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

I intend to, there's much to be upset about.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Just being upset because you are upset really does not help anyone understand what you see as the real problems that need to be addressed in any priority order.

[+] -5 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

At least tell the truth.

The helicopters are from the local news agencies. There is only one LAPD helicopter.

There are more media people at the site then there are protesters. The actual protesters are less then 200. The bulk of the people at the OWS camp area are local homeless people who unfortunately have nowhere else to go.

[-] 7 points by roscoesdad27 (106) from Aberdeen, MD 2 years ago

Doesn't take away from the fact that excessive tax $ is being wasted shutting up protesters thru sheer technicalities rather than logic.....meanwhile 4 out of 10 murders, 6 of 10 rapes and 9 out of 10 burglaries go unsolved. You see the prioritys of the psychopaths that make the rules and how desperate they are to keep it this way....and the paid pigs that are sooo eager to prove their allegiance to these insane bastards need to get their faces kicked in.

[-] 5 points by AuditElmerFudd (259) 2 years ago

Actually, it would've made far more sense for protestors to immediately peacefully abandon the area before the bulk of police arrived, which everyone knew from the extensive media coverage, and relocated to much smaller encampments scattered around the area. Then, Occupy could've regathered in the park the very next day. The mayor would not be able to keep hundreds of officers assigned to the park on a permanent basis. If you're going to fight "city hall" you have to be more strategic.

[-] -3 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

So you are okay with the lying? That is why OWS is losing credibility. Every time there is a lie, exaggeration, or hysterical claim that is supposedly "fact" posted on behalf of OWS the entire basis of OWS looks bad. Excusing the lie is even worse.

[-] 3 points by stefano60 (13) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

what lies? you seem to see a lot of lies and exaggeration everywhere. paranoia comes to mind.

[-] -2 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

If you can't follow the posts stay out of the conversation.

[-] 3 points by stefano60 (13) from Los Angeles, CA 2 years ago

no lies, sir. from my windows i could see the helicopters, not what they were. i did not say they were all police helicopters, evidently you are much better informed than i was. however, the police did have over 1,400 agents in the area (as reported this morning), which seems to me an excessive use of resources (=waste) to disperse peaceful protesters (especially if, as you say, there was only 200 of them!). whether one agrees with what they are about or not is a different story. the truth is that the cops are all out in forces when they have to serve their masters, and WE pay the bill.

[-] -2 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

Yes, we ARE paying the bills for these squatters who claim to represent the 99%. How much has it cost NY so far?

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Protesters aren't squatters. They have every right to protest as granted to them (and everyone else) by the Constitution. Quit your lying, please.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

SwissMiss, calling the truth a lie doesn't make it so.

[-] 1 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

You must be joking. Bloomberg wipes his a$$ with NYC tax dollars...

[-] 0 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago

WHO pays Bloomberg those tax dollars? Does that money simply come out of some "cache" or "stash" that magically fills up each day?

Never mind - your answer to the 3.4 million that OWS has cost the taxpayers would obviously be that the police should have just minded their own business and not bothered with the occupiers....another utopian thought process.....

[-] 1 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

Utopian thought process.... Nope. I am a realist. Let's take your example. Suppose the police didn't do anything and spent none of the people's/protester's... OUR... tax money.... That's right. What''s going on tonight would still be going on tonight. It was not effective. Nobody is safer. None of the protesters gave up. In fact the police action only increased the occupation's support. Bad business mr. tax man... bad business.... and it gets even worse. Bloomy's bad business move will still purge more of OUR tax dollars for legal fees to defend his militias actions in all of the court cases.That is the irony of it all my friend. Once that sinks in read this....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/01/nypd-gives-fox-news-special-protection.html

Follow the money!

Tolerance for tents! Intolerance for treason against OUR democracy!

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Maybe they calculated their needed strength on a wire tap of a cell phone of someone claiming thousands of protesters in the park ready to fight to the death - suppose???

[-] -3 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

When you made your post you implied (don't deny it) that the helicopters were police choppers and you were ranting about the money spent by the police. Plus at the time you posted there were no police officers at the OWS site. The police were a block away at the headquarters.

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[+] -5 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Put your makeup on and comb your hair, your 15 minutes have arrived and they want pictures for the newspapers and TV before it ends.

[-] 4 points by mikeh9 (18) 2 years ago

Biohazard suits? This is what a police state looks like.

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

Considering the health problems in the camps like TB and lice, and the fact that the camps have difficulty disposing of their fecal matter and garbage, and that anyone can see how bad the trash is (30 tons) Im surprised they weren't handling the arrestees with 10 foot poles.

[-] 1 points by Timmeh (39) 2 years ago

...No. Just no. I've seen a police state, and let me assure you that it looks nothing like this. It is worse; much worse.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

This is 2011, some people can kill you (eventually) by sharing their bodily fluids with you. Give me a biohazard suit any day.

Spit on a policeman and expect to lose a tooth, and if that is all you lose, count yourself lucky.

[-] 4 points by RomCath (24) 2 years ago

Gestapo is Back!

[-] 4 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Sorry I'm an old man with a bad back. i wish I could have done more

[-] 2 points by Babyswiss (4) from Wixom, MI 2 years ago

vote!

[-] 3 points by ericjon652004 (3) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I am not a 99%er in the sense that most of you probably are although I post about the movement all the time and defend your courage and fortitude.

I believe If the OWS movement had focused more on the genesis of the economic inequality, namely the central bankers that own and control the federal reserve and our government, the movement would have had a much broader base of support. (It is not a secret that the federal reserve is privately owned.... just in case the moderator thought I might be posting a conspiracy theory.)

When I think about how effective the OWS movement has been in waking people up to the fact that they do have a voice I'm both elated and frustrated.

I'm elated to see that self determination and free will has not been genetically stripped from our DNA as I had feared.

I'm frustrated because I feel that there is a lack of focus on the heart of the problem. I feel that you guys are fighting too many battles on too many fronts and for that reason you are in danger of losing the war.

Wall Street fights it's battles with money. It gets its ammunition from the bankers who in turn get their ammunition from the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is owned by the bankers and can issue an infinite amount of currency and or credit to other banks and corporations. Bloomberg's report on the Federal Reserve a few days ago will support this. You all know that most of the politicians in Washington are private property of the banks and therefore the Federal Reserve.

I guess I've made my point and am dangerously close to soap boxing. No matter what, I'll keep posting for you guys and defending your courage and fortitude.

[-] 3 points by Socrates469bc (608) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Coordinated Attacks in Philly & LA:

End the Patriot Act. It is being used against Americans. We lost our constitution:

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/repeal-patriot-act/JF1pdPKg

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/end-patriot-act/nH20qwfr

[-] 3 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

To the NYPD:

I have nothing against you in general, nor against many of your officers as people. I am immensely proud of all the first responders at the World Trade Center on that day, including and especially you. You were our heroes then, and to some extent that's still true now, but that status does not constitute a license to brutalize American citizens.

That does not excuse the 1AM raid, the deliberate media blackout on said raid, the indiscriminate use of tear gas and batons (we now have a city council member behind bars with her head split open thanks to that behavior), the kettling and pepper-spraying of peaceful protesters, the pepper-spraying of an 84-year-old woman, etc, and the deliberate voyeurism and humiliation of female protesters while in custody.

We are not and should not be your enemies. Honestly, given the current political climate we are probably the only group here to whom you can turn for support when you act as members of the PBA rather than as enforcers of the law. I am referring in particular to your contract negotiations. Almost every contract you've had since 1994, including the ones signed following 9/11, has had to be handled by arbitrators who take as much back out of you as they give, and there's no indication that that's going to change.

Public opinion of public employee unions such as the one representing you is at a new low, and in fact several counties have attempted to go into bankruptcy because they couldn't be bothered to pay into their employees' pension plans. People are complaining about how their tax dollars are being wasted on paying your salaries, covering your overtime, providing your health insurance, and providing you a comfortable retirement even though there's no reason why you or anyone else shouldn't have these things.

The public will support you as on-duty cops fighting crime and enforcing the law. The mayor will support you as a security force he can use to break up protests and other things he doesn't agree with. However, both of these groups will do a 180 in two seconds flat when you ask for higher wages or better benefits or for the same number of sick days as last year. Should the question come to a strike, as it did with the transit workers in 2005, expect scabs and vicious rhetoric from Bloomberg and expect the populace to attack you for dereliction of duty.

Essentially, the only group out there that reliably supports you as union workers doing your best to achieve a middle-class lifestyle is the group in Zuccotti Park. They would be more than willing to back you in negotiations and stand beside you on the picket lines should that be necessary. They have also suffered abuse and violence at the hands of NYPD officers, and many of them will remember this the next time your contract comes up; it's far easier to boo strikers and protesters from the sidelines than it is to join them, and there will likely be a lot of residual anger from the raids.

You're already working without a contract and have been for over a year now. At some point you're going to call for one and you're going to have to go the rounds with the mayor and the city as usual. It will likely be a long uphill battle to get the contract you deserve, especially in these hard economic times, and if you succeed in silencing us you will have lost your most steadfast ally in the process.

Sincerely, The Occupation Movement.

Anyone want to adapt this to LAPD?

[-] 2 points by shintao (4) 2 years ago

WHY DO WE WANT TO GET RID OF WALL STREET?? The stock market is based on taking massive profits away from corporations, which denys the worker and his family better wages and benefits. Profits off workers backs should benefit the worker who makes it for the corporation, not leeches and parasites with stocks in hand.

Banks are the proper place for corporations to get development money. By-passing banks scrutiny of credit checks to get cash, is why so many corporations go down & need MORE taxpayer bailouts. We are paying big time for the stock market failures.

Stocks do not help the economy grow. It is billions of dollars in money setting in stock paper in a deposit vault, and out of circulation from the US economy. Corporate bank loans however puts money back into circulation for home loans, car loans, business development, new businesses.

The stock market is unAmerican, and should be outlawed. Protest the Stock Markets, close down the blood sucking parasites that rape workers and their families of the profits they make with their sweat.

[-] 2 points by shintao (4) 2 years ago

WHY DO WE WANT TO GET RID OF WALL STREET?? The stock market is based on taking massive profits away from corporations, which denys the worker and his family better wages and benefits. Profits off workers backs should benefit the worker who makes it for the corporation, not leeches and parasites with stocks in hand.

Banks are the proper place for corporations to get development money. By-passing banks scrutiny of credit checks to get cash, is why so many corporations go down & need MORE taxpayer bailouts. We are paying big time for the stock market failures.

Stocks do not help the economy grow. It is billions of dollars in money setting in stock paper in a deposit vault, and out of circulation from the US economy. Corporate bank loans however puts money back into circulation for home loans, car loans, business development, new businesses.

The stock market is unAmerican, and should be outlawed. Protest the Stock Markets, close down the blood sucking parasites that rape workers and their families of the profits they make with their sweat.

[-] 2 points by mikeh9 (18) 2 years ago

the people united will never be defeated

[-] 2 points by BTKcongress (149) 2 years ago

watching on RT television in US. they are big supporters of OWS, kind of like Fox to the GOP. not the best day for the movement, but clear support for OWS.

[-] 2 points by jhonel (23) from New York, NY 2 years ago

they will try to stop us... but they NEVER WiLL! We are The 99%

[-] 2 points by nate (48) 2 years ago

5,000 plus arrests is proof that the Occupy movement is working. Things just have to be pushed to the tipping point. By continuing in solidarity it will happen.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

mmmmm sounds more like, 5,000 arrests is proof, counting bail money, that the system is raking in the dough. Maybe we will get a reduction in our property taxes next year if you can hold in there a little more, maybe go back to the same place and get arrested again.

[-] 2 points by nate (48) 2 years ago

Ah, yes. I see we have different views. Thank you and good wishes.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Hey Nate - good to hear from you. We do have different views which means we have things to talk about. I really don't get much out of bouncing ideas off someone that holds the same ideas. That is merely patting each other on the back.

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[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • You cannot evict an idea.

  • OWS needs to begin occupying minds.

  • The Public Forums and posts here and elsewhere have produced mountains of alleged complaints, and mountains of proposed solutions.

  • If it is possible to data mine all this information, OWS could more proactively publicize a policy positions that will galvanize readers and produce followers.

  • Right now, much of this is preaching to the choir. A very fragmented choir.

[-] 2 points by aahpat (1407) 2 years ago

MOVE the Occupation to the Federal Reserve Bank branch in LA.

950 South Grand Avenue, Los Angeles, CA 90015

[-] 2 points by Dzehenuti (15) 2 years ago

You must rename your statue :) It is not statue of liberty but STATUE OF SLAVERY :P

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[-] 2 points by zootsuit (34) 2 years ago

here's the timeline http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/comments/mubdk/occupy_los_angeles_streaming_linkg/

and here's the recorded video of the last group of people holding the park, right at the moment of arrests when livestreamer's battery finally dies and she gets arrested.

[-] 2 points by Boldhawk (3) from Reno, NV 2 years ago

Need to try a few slogans on poster boards in dealing with the Police:

"Occupy is trying to protect police salaries too."

"We are here so policy don't also loose their jobs tomorrow."

Any other such would probably have some impact.

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[-] 1 points by i8jomomma (80) 2 years ago

don't let the pigs push you around...........take the streets back like they did during the LA riots when Rodney King got beat and show them that they can't fuck with us ................they can't stop us all

[-] 1 points by therevolutionisnow (15) 2 years ago

Fuck lapd, Fuck nypd , end the fed & Fuck the government we will prevail .

[-] 1 points by ferditekin (16) 2 years ago

Dear occupiers, as a sign that you have demonstrated that such action is not a of 1%. State 1% level deputies, 1% military, 10% of civil servants, %5 of police and their families. Is the number of with families with 85%. So you do this you need to specify clearly the true cause of action. Someone may not like you.

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[-] 1 points by manrod (10) 2 years ago

We were corralled and detained with misdemeanors and were held captive to "make an example"

[-] 1 points by Thunderhands (32) from National City, CA 2 years ago

When the powers to be feel like they are losing control they will take decisive and brutal action,,even marshal law if need be! It's just a matter of time. The people have had enough of being lemmings on the treadmill of slavery to the man. The occupy movement was just a match that ignited a bigger fire. The fire of freedom that burns in people's hearts. It's no longer about the Occupy movement but about the light that,, that match revealed. The light of self worthiness, self empowerment, and in layman's terms we don't have to take this abuse anymore because there is power in numbers! Yeah! you-know the wake up call!

[-] 1 points by LHP73 (2) 2 years ago

Check out the best protest song around.. X MARKS THE SPOT by ANDY DUERDEN on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEy9VGp6d1c

[-] 1 points by LABreakers (1) 2 years ago

Why dont you guys start going door to door and educating the people. Instead of holding up signs that say hey come get busted with us in the park. Most you star bucks drinkers never been to jail or prison and dont know anything about that world. Thats probably why your so eager to sit in a park and wait for the cops to come bust you. Will see how many folks go back and sit in the park after they been processed in and out of the super max or the towers. Hopefully they just took you guys to some camp or some shit. I honest to god wanted to see you guys pack it up and come back in the morning. i feel like you went to jail for no fucking reason. by they way they like taking you to jail thats also how the one percent make allot of fucking money. im just saying not allot of people are willing to be sitting ducks for the lapd to just come snatch em up. i dont care what every one says about there is no leader there needs to be organization and leaders with clear goals and the message needs to be taken into the ghetto. into the poorest areas through out the nation in order for it to take hold. just like the leaders in the civil rights movement did. standing on corners educating the people having meetings and goals out lined and demands that need to met before they go out into the streets. im not just saying only the poor you could take a message into the suburbs and pass out pamphlets and what not even to the middle class with out creating division. kill the one love hippie shit as a message this isnt the sixties and nobodies trying to hear that shit. one thing the 99 percent agree on is taking the money out of washington. you could go any where in the nation rather it be to a tea party rally or an occupy sit in or whatever it is and yell take the money out of politics and everyone in the mob will lose there shit and start cheering. outline a message that leaves nobody in the 99 percent out. teach the message to the people and then take to the streets in numbers. they can kick you out of a park but if there were leaders going door to door across the nation with a clear goals, like we need to get the money out of politics this is why and this is how. teaching the message to people and saying this is what were gonna do on this and this day and this is why. that shit would terrify the 1 percent i know that 99 percent of the nation is in the same boat. but how do you get people who vote against there own interest to come out. you need to go to there doors and speak to them with out creating division. with simple ideas that we all agree on. not end the fed, down with capitalism, fuck fox news, peace and love, war on the poor, just simple shit like no more lobbyist no more money on capital hill no more outside influence in our democracy shit like that gets everybody and that message alone would get more people listening. all they would have to do is show up to an occupy meeting with a speaker that knows his or her shit. then maybe they will realize they been had. maybe there doesnt need to be straight up leaders but there need to be events held around the nation and people that go door to door and teach people whats going on. dare i say it community organizers. but what ever im sorry bout the long post also bout my spelling grammar and being all over the place unfortunately i have a six grade education oh well it is what it is. i never post anything on the internet but i was watching you guys get busted last night and that shit got me hot. i hate that the cops gotta away with that bullshit. they think they are the one percent only because they dont understand shit. but what ever even if you are bunch of hippies im proud of occupy it took guts to go out there and go to jail. i didnt mean to offend just speaking from my heart. i might be all wrong just throwing out ideas.

[-] 1 points by dujaa74 (1) 2 years ago

Because America is quickly changing from within (moving away from our Civil Rights and those who swore to uphold that Freedom under the US Constitution); People, Veterans and even Federal Police are being targeted & eliminated in various and even deadly ways. Its real, its happening: American Justice or FBI cover-up? http://www.change.org/petitions/american-justice-or-fbi-cover-up

[-] 1 points by mikeh9 (18) 2 years ago

Philadelphia Mayor Nutter Mic-Checked at Harvard----- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ialZThqDA&feature=channel_video_title

[-] 1 points by asean (1) from Lewiston, ID 2 years ago

Baby, it’s getting cold outside. It’s been a nice media show and the “Occupy” demonstrators have made their point. But now it’s time for them to strike their tents, move out of the nation’s big-city pocket parks, get down to business, and help take back the whole damned country from the corporate sharks and their lap-dog politicians.

All of our major institutions have been turned into big business: the banks, health care, the public schools, the courts and prisons, etc. In the process they have been transformed into winner-take-all extraction machines that enrich the self-serving few at the top (and their cronies) at the expense of the people those institutions are supposed to be serving.

If you look at the big picture and not view these institutions in isolation, you will see that they are interlinked by overlapping governance boards and dovetailed policies and programs. They’re creating a Matrix of enslavement that relies on debt, addiction, dependency, enforcement, and control to put and keep you under the thumb of commerce and authority. It’s all gone too far.

The public schools, for example, feed the health care industry through forced vaccinations of schoolchildren which enrich big pharma and, by some accounts, create multitudes of chronically ill patients with once-rare maladies including autism, ADHD, and other developmental disorders (1 in 6 children!). Through zero-tolerance policies that criminalize childish behavior and remove low-scoring students from school roles to maximize federal and state funding, the schools feed the school-to-prison pipeline and fuel the demand for more future prison capacity—more and more of it provided by private prison companies. read more...http://wandervogeldiary.wordpress.com/

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

From MSN Money: Nabors’ CEO sheds title, collects $100 million Eugene Isenberg collected huge paychecks and racked up miles on the corporate jet while his company’s stock languished. He gave up the CEO spot recently -- for a sum that helped make him my first ‘One-Percenter of the Week.’ By MSN Money partner on Wed, Nov 30, 2011 3:19 PM By Michael Brush, MSN Money

The tax-and-budget debate in Washington and the Occupy Wall Street protests have put new light on an old issue: the growing gap between the rich and everyone else.

I’ve been writing for years about a select slice of the top 1%, those CEOs and top executives whose lavish pay and perks annoy watchdogs, shareholder advocates and big investors like pension funds. But despite their complaints, we never seem to run out of examples of executive privilege.

Take the simple act of getting around. Now that camping has been banned at New York’s Zuccotti Park, Occupy Wall Streeters have to ride in to the protests using the transportation of the 99%-ers -- subways, buses, cars and the ol' shoe leather express. One percenters prefer limos and the corporate jet.

One of my favorite examples of corporate jet overuse is Eugene Isenberg, chairman of Nabors (NBR +7.75%), an energy services company. He stands out for a couple of reasons.

A $100 million salute

First, Isenberg makes a lot of money; he could easily afford a first-class ticket on a commercial flight, and buy the seat next to him for extra comfort. He could at least reimburse the company when he uses the corporate jet for personal travel, and spare shareholders the expense. That's because the company reported $71.9 million in compensation for him in 2008, $23.2 million in 2009, and $13.5 million in 2010.

And here's the juiciest part: When he gave up the CEO slot recently, he got a nice parting gift -- a cool $100 million payment. And it’s not even goodbye; he’s staying on as chairman. He just has one less job,

The company has long argued that he deserves this cash because he rescued the company from bankruptcy in 1987. That may be true, but the company’s stock is down 40% in the last five years. The latest payment led a columnist in Houston, where Nabors is based, to label Isenberg his city’s "most overpaid executive."

Flying high

Second, despite his vast wealth, Isenberg has apparently taken frequent personal flights on the corporate jet to his homes, all paid for by shareholders, according to a study by The Wall Street Journal. What's even worse, the company has not disclosed these trips to shareholders.

In a study using flight records published in June, the Journal reported that Nabors' jets made frequent stops in Palm Beach, Fla., and Martha's Vineyard, Mass., where Isenberg has homes. The Journal estimated the flights cost about $704,000 -- large enough to be disclosed publicly. But Nabors never disclosed an amount for the cost of aircraft perks for Isenberg in 2009 or 2010.

In June, a Nabors spokesman told the Journal that the company "complies with all IRS guidelines and SEC disclosure requirements with respect to the use of company aircraft by its executive officers." And under his contract, Isenberg is allowed to set up home offices, at the company expense. So that may be a rationale for the flights here: technically, he might have been making business trips between corporate offices, two of which happen to be in or near his homes.

Nabors declined an opportunity to tell me more about these flights. But we may soon be learning more about them. The company recently said the Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating executive perks, including personal flights on company jets.

Meanwhile, for collecting all these big checks and still, apparently, finding a way to get shareholders to pay for his flights to and from home, I'm making Isenberg my first "One-Percenter of the Week." I plan to have a new one every week.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Just one question Justice4All:

  1. Does the CEO of a large corporation approve their own salary, salary raises, and bonus payments? Did this CEO give himself the $100 million you mention. Seems like that would be imbezzelment.
[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

A thief does'nt have to be a thief just by robbing someone with a mask and a gun. If a person is totally incompotant they certainly have a free will to do the moral and right thing by saying "Thats OK, I did a terrible job and don't deserve that money" but just because someone looks to be in human for, in truth they are monsters and poisonous thieves irregardless. If someone comes along in your world and kills the person you care for most ronjj, would you seek justice for them or go "Go ahead and kill and destroy as many as you like not that big a deal?" Evil is evil and there has to be a justice system that all have to be held accountable to. Just because someone can get away with something, does'nt mean in a true democracy (that doesnt exist here, but is still called democracy) that they should.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Thanks Justice. I appreciate your reply. Now let me pose another question to your scenerio.

  1. If someone came along and did as you describe (kill), I would most certainly want to see justice done.

  2. If I had or anyone else any thoughts at all that he was really a hired man doing the killing for someone else, I would certainly want to seek out the real cause of that killing, who hired him, what was their motive, etc. As in today's justice system, I would even trade of few years of justice for him to point the finger at the real problem.

  3. If I did not approach it that way, I could only assume that at some point, the cause (whatever that is) would send another symptom (killer) to kill me too.

  4. In reference to the "Thats OK" statement. I can only assume that at least two entities agree that a good job was done a) the CEO and b) you figure this one out for yourself.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

I agree with you ronjj about seeking out the true meaning behind someone(s) reason for killing. That in many ways to my own way of thinking in the conditions that have lead those who have been abusing power through finance to continue to do what they do and why they do it. What makes people feel the need to consume far more than they could ever need and in most cases do it at the disposal of so many others? Like you stated--I'm trying to find out the root causes in what makes these people the way they are, and how could simply obtaining an absurd amount of wealth do to help the cause of that roots problem in them? When they are the creators of this world we live in (driven by greed, arrogance and selfishness) the mindsets that are set in those individuals to me anyway(s) are not very far off from someone who can kill and destroy through murder. Which in turn affects so many like ripples created by a stone thrown in water. It to me is not a far seperation in those rooted issues between any sort of destructive kind of mind that exists. The only difference is that most accused of murder have their day in court, while these scumbags walk away with bonuses in the tens of millions for destroying their fellow man and woman. You are right--there should be no excuse for those shareholders or those making the decisions to not only allow these creatures to walk away with their heads hung in shame (In Japan most these people would have the decency to "off" themselves for their performance), but give them bags and bags of cash just to walk away. It is their own fault you are right, but just like whats happened for so many years on Wall Street my hope is that by those beginning to stand up to the system that the way(s) business has been conducted will forever change and the average man and womans slavery to this evil system will end (It may be a pipedream, but the only way things can change is if people say enough and never stop fighting for change)

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Look at Mr. Buffet for your example and his claim that his secretary pays more in federal income tax that he does. He is probably exactly correct in his statement, she is paid in cash (check) and pays Fed Tax in proportion to that cash received. She is probably NOT paid in Berk-Hath stock which is at an alltime high of over $5,000.00 per share.

On the other hand, the company CEO is paid a short salary and the balance in company stock and the inherent increase in the value of the stock. That salary is taxed according to the Fed IncTax Schedule and the stock is not taxed until the capital gain is received at some future point in time.

There is method in everyone's maddness. The maddness of the CEO that we identify in the hugh bonus payments, is the sympton of a far deeper maddness.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Sounds much like Dick Cheney. From my understanding of it he did not take a salary as Vice President, as he received his pay was through Halliburton stock options. Hard to see how Halliburton could receive several contracts from an illegal war, while Mr. Potter excuse me Cheney profited far better than he would have receiving a salary as Vice President. The whole system is so corrupt and vile it makes me sick!!

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

The entire system is filled with holes. Anytime SOME guys on Wall Street can bet on stocks that they do not in any way own and yet make a lot in the process, that in and of itself is going to have an impact upon the actual value of the stock that any individual holds.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

Our congresspeople too. Not sure if you saw that story last week about the folks in congress basically are given information about how well a certain stocks will perform. (Basically insider trading for Congress) Washington takes care of Wall Street, and in return Wall Street takes care of others politicians (I call them others because they dont represent me, and at this point I dont want those diseased people representing me)--that's really how the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer--because unless your in that elite group who run and control everything, and have only an agenda to make as much as they can rather than serve the people they SWORE to, the rest of us get screwed and they are never held accountable (Both Parties) Its a disgrace!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

It IS a disgrace. This is what history tells us about any group that is given the right to make their own rules. Have you ever been given the right to vote on a pay raise for your Representative in DC?? Why NOT, you are, afterall, the one hiring (voting) for them. They have simply voted themselves as exempt from the rules that they think and vote to apply to everyone else.

My state Rep lives three houses down from where I live. He goes to the State Capital about 3 times a year - gets paid a stipend for his costs for housing-meals etc and then comes back to town to continue to make a living. I would have no problem with this same procedure providing to our professional politicians in DC and everywhere else.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

The amazing thing is that the first matter of business they attend to is just that and wouldnt ya know it--its the one thing they all agree on every time. Amazing how they can all agree when it comes to serving their own needs. I would have no problem on them doing this, and making more money than most 100 people combined in this country if they actually did ANYTHING constructive! if you or I did our job as poorly as they do we would be fired the first day!! But like you said--they make their own rules and answer to no one--even if we don't reelect one of them another one comes into take his/her place and continues the cycle. And honestly for those who dont get reelected--why would they really care at that point anyway? They have already made their millions and it isnt like they dont know it would take them a lifetime to make it doing anything else. So their lives are set up just fine, while those they were sent to serve have gotten and continue to get worse. The whole system is an absolute crock!!

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I agree about the crock - but more about what is inside that crock.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

True--my own feeling its 45% Bull, 45% Sh** with a 10% dash of oregano :-)

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Justice

Thanks. Ending another workweek with a good laugh is a GOOD thing. Have a great weekend.

[-] 1 points by Justice4all (133) 2 years ago

You as well ronjj--nice talking with you this week!

[-] 1 points by wmcdowell1 (1) 2 years ago

people of the world unite! We are w/ our brothers & sisters from London--stay strong THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING!

[-] 1 points by OWSMusic (57) 2 years ago

A song of support for Occupy movements... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FM3KR9dEOk

[-] 1 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

When did the Constitution of the United States get trumped by private property and state laws? When did the Constitution of the United States become nullified by time allotment?

[-] 1 points by WorldCitizen99 (20) 2 years ago

This is truly frightening:
"The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision" provision of the "the national defense authorization" act (http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/senators-demand-military-lock-american-citizens-battlefield-they-define-being)

[-] 1 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

"Send more cops..." ~ Return of the Living Dead.

[-] 1 points by owsowns (12) from Las Vegas, NV 2 years ago

Thunderhands said it! While occupying fixed areas to show strength in numbers has been very effective in raising awareness, I could see a second phase of the movement becoming more liquid in nature. It is a war, and has been for a while, and a cue from Sun Tzu may not hurt.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Perhaps a word of caution at this point - your use of the word "war" is easily related to and confused with a lot of what people are now disillusioned with - "war" in Iraq", "war" in Afg, "war" on drugs, "war" on terror. I think a lot of Americans are growing weary of our cries of "war". What do you think??

Actually, this association alone, may cost more in support than anything else.

[-] 1 points by owsowns (12) from Las Vegas, NV 2 years ago

You make a good point, the word 'war' has almost become generic, yet a denotative meaning of the word would mean an 'armed conflict'. This is a conflict, OWS is armed; with a voice. It is far beyond a bunch of people getting together and expressing anger about oppression, and more about a solid movement that will not budge until a resolution is found. I don't claim to have the answers, and my words are not powerful enough to dilute the messages that are symbolic for the movement. No matter what we call it, OWS will continue to refine various strategies in order to bring an end to oppression that Americans have undeservingly have to face. We can call it 'war' or 'pixiedust' yet the facts remain.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

owsowns

Very true. Have a great weekend.

[-] 1 points by WakeUp2011 (12) 2 years ago

Spreading the truth is crucial to creating the world we want to see. We need to wake up as many people as we can to get real change. Those that don't want to wake up can stay asleep. Keep spreading the word. Here's a start..

http://youtu.be/iRyjzCa7_AE

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • You cannot evict an idea.

  • You can evict the public from public parks and open spaces. But you cannot evict an idea from the public commons.

  • Occupy their minds.

[-] 1 points by PamKat317 (5) 2 years ago

Solidarity! Inspire others to get involved http://youtu.be/EFNcEXFS7wU

[-] 1 points by Socrates469bc (608) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Has there been a news blackout? The LA live stream is not working..

There was an article about a great white shark on CNN.com but nothing on the front page about the occupy evictions.

The Wash Post had a front page article about the eviction but it was removed...

[-] 1 points by Thunderhands (32) from National City, CA 2 years ago

Like the ancient Chinese oracle the I-ching says " Be like water." Water although perceived as soft has the ability to FILL UP all the low places until it overcomes or overflows. Water has the ability to wear down great mountains with time. Also,,, an army without a leader is lost. Another classic on war and strategy, (this is a war!!) Sun Tzu's art of war. In the chapter laying plans..."The commander must stand for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness. The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemies plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemies forces; the next in order is to attack the enemies forces in the field; and the worst policy all is to besiege walled cities. Follow the THUNDER!!!!! Don't just Occupy,,,take over!!!! Seep in quietly under cover of darkness to the low places,,, meaning easily accessible,, balk the enemies plans by showing up in unexpected areas. Some say this is not a war,,, how untrue! It's a a war against complacency,and it's a real war in the sense that our brothers an sisters are being injured physically, detained and thrown in jail! Don't just be a movement,,,,to politically correct!! Be a force to be reckoned with!

[-] 1 points by lonespectator (106) 2 years ago

It should be quite evident by now to every sane person that the nationwide Occupy movement will only be tolerated by local governments until public opinion turns against the squaller and foolishness of a rudderless movement. This time has arrived, and complain as you will, this is no "Arab Spring", and is over.. You were told many times to conduct a full scale Occupation of the White House which is not only the source of the national problems we face, but is not a State, and is governed by different rules that would have allowed you to stay forever in Tents with Generators. The current administration has no back bone to stop you, and the Capitol Police support OWH. But you have failed, and failed miserably . You can thank the DNC backed OWS group and a coerced General Assembly. LA, Oakland, New York, etc.. you have been used!! Wake up.. Go against The GA/ OWS bias and support of the corrupt DNC, and " the White House" Now!!

[-] 1 points by Thunderhands (32) from National City, CA 2 years ago

Like the ancient Chinese oracle the I-ching says " Be like water." Water although perceived as soft has the ability to FILL UP all the low places until it overcomes or overflows. Water has the ability to wear down great mountains with time. Also,,, an army without a leader is lost. Another classic on war and strategy, (this is a war!!) Sun Tzu's art of war. In the chapter laying plans..."The commander must stand for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness. The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemies plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemies forces; the next in order is to attack the enemies forces in the field; and the worst policy all is to besiege walled cities. Follow the THUNDER!!!!! Don't just Occupy,,,take over!!!! Seep in quietly under cover of darkness to the low places,,, meaning easily accessible,, balk the enemies plans by showing up in unexpected areas. Some say this is not a war,,, how untrue! It's a war against complacency, and it's a real war in the sense that our brothers and sisters are being injured physically, detained and thrown in jail! Don't just be a movement,,,,too politically correct!! Be a force to be reckoned with!

[-] 1 points by occupyoccupyoccupy (14) 2 years ago

The European Central Bank, U.S. Federal Reserve, Bank of England, and the central banks in Japan and Switzerland said Wednesday the goal is to improve the supply of credit to both families and businesses.

The banks pledged to cut the rate on what's known as "dollar swap lines." In plain terms, the plan is to make U.S. dollars more available. They will do that by lowering the rate at which the world's banks have to borrow to get their hands on U.S. dollars.

Foreign banks get U.S. dollars by borrowing them from their own central banks, which then get them from the U.S. Federal Reserve.

Because of the uncertainty in the economy, the premium that European banks must pay to get short-term U.S. dollar loans rose to 162 basis points recently. That's the highest they've been since Lehman Brothers collapsed in 2008. In the minutes after the announcement, the rate had already dropped to 145 basis points.

Creating an international printing press.

[-] 1 points by occupyoccupyoccupy (14) 2 years ago

PEOPLE THE BANKS OF THE WORLD ARE UNITING!!! THIS IS SCARY. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/11/30/central-banks-credit.html

[-] 1 points by Dzehenuti (15) 2 years ago

Go occupy statue of Liberty with transparents.

[-] 1 points by wewontgetfooledagain (23) 2 years ago

KTLA interview with police said everyone still in the park at this point is under arrest and will be cuffed and taken to jail. About 75 people?

[-] 0 points by fishb8 (62) 2 years ago

What exactly does it mean to "support" OWS . . . some might agree that Government is broken . . .but thats a long way from supporting an anarchist encampment of perpetual whiners.

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[-] 0 points by SelfReliant (94) 2 years ago

Campers. Time to go home. Speak with votes and concrete proposals. Improve the system where you can. Do not envy success but work for availability for all to prosper, with hard work. So many OWS campers seem to feel this way, great. Many though seem to be angry anarchist types, which seems to dilute positive contributions from OWS. But, the camping on public property methodology is not helping.

[-] 0 points by davavav (1) 2 years ago

Wow, we should send OWS the bill for thier right to use public lands. Shitting in a bucket and being voilent just isn't working for ya?

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[-] 0 points by lonespectator (106) 2 years ago

Eric Blair is an Anarchist...Always has been, always will. As long as he still has mommy and daddy's money to run around the world playing Bandito in his little mask. He, and his little friends are sadly what's wrong with a loud and whining youth group who show up to disrupt protests and chat boards.. Turn your backs to him in distain...He's a loser...

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[-] 0 points by Supersean (1) 2 years ago

I support Occupy LA. I was saddened by last nights display. Most of the crowd were 'activism tourists'. The night was aglow with smartphones, tablets, camera LCD's, etc. all of which cost several hundred dollars For those who are ostensibly protesting for the disenfranchised, there seemed to be lots of disposable income on display. It was a real juxtaposition with the homeless in the camp. There was no police brutality, there was no attempt to censor the truth of what happened last night. The occupation left the park a complete mess and cost an untold amount of taxpayer $$. Very sad.

[-] 1 points by nate (48) 2 years ago

There is always some mess with encampment protests. But there is historic president for them. Just type in "Bonus Army" and you can find photos similar to what Occupy camps look like today. Good wishes.

[-] 0 points by Supersean (1) 2 years ago

thanks for the tip Nate. I studied the bonus army in a college history class. Therein might lie the disconnect between the Occupiers and the general population. There is a difference between learning something in a rigorous academic setting under a good teacher and just Googling stuff. Call it a generational difference or whatever, but there is a qualitative difference.

[-] 0 points by OWSWhat (66) 2 years ago

This is very old news because the cops already beat the chit out of the OWS losers a long time ago. hahahahahahhahahhahahahahahhahaha

[-] 0 points by skeptical (14) 2 years ago

So nice to see sanitation workers clearing out 3-4 TONS of garbage this morning, wearing bio hazard suits given the disgustingly squalid situation around city hall. Nobody ever talked about the health hazards, the filth and disease that this human petri dish created. Sure, in the 11th hour the mayor disingenuously says "wait - there are kids in there!" - oh, really? How about the health hazard this dump posed to EVERYONE in LA? Hey occupiers - how about spending some of the tens of thousands of donation dollars to help clean up the mess you created? Oh, wait, let's just let the blue collar 99% workers do it for you, right? Self-righteous, juvenile, irresponsible pigs - if only the media took a real look at the 'movement' - whaddya say, kids, is it too much to ask you to clean up after yourselves and leave the park the way you found it? Is that not part of the 'movement'? How many of you will volunteer, in true solidarity, in a show of strength, to re-seed the lawn and fix the sprinklers? I'll guess zero -

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[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

Where is the attack? I have been watching and I haven't seen it?

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[-] 0 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

Summary: We had our lands.

They were taken from us.

We cannot live without land.

We are taking our land back.

Ever since the invention of the “Domination society” (the one where someone knows better than you what you should do and will force you if necessary), lands have been taken away from those who previously inhabited them. I say ‘inhabited’ because many of the disenfranchised societies didn’t have much concept of ownership, though both the society and the individuals within society did have ‘stewardship’ over specific portions of the land.

But this meant the opposite of what land ownership means today. Today ownership of land often means that that land is used to speculate or to generate passive income.

In contrast, stewardship indicates a relationship where that which comes from the land to feed, clothe, and shelter is gratefully received and honored and in which that land and all the minerals, plants, and animals on it are treated in a way that this gift is neither dishonored nor destroyed. It is instead tended and passed on to the next generation.

With stewardship, no person or group needs to claim possession of more land than the individual or the group actually needs and uses. As the individual, family, or tribe wisely utilizes the resources that this land provides, he, she, or they can benefit from the land for many generations without being driven by an irrational fear to ‘possess’ more and more land which neither feeds, nor clothes any better nor provides the owner with any better shelter than before.

Still, many have been so deceived by the concept of money and the seeming security it provides for the future and have been inculcated into a deep fear of scarcity in the future that they have been driven, even at the point of a sword, to take control of more and more land. Those pursuing this route have generally found that the empire is never big enough. There was always more to conquer, more to control, and the bloodsheds of recent and distant history have demonstrated an amazing distain for the concept of stewardship and needs of the present. Even death was accepted in an attempt to gain security for the future.

Those who were not as warlike as their brethren had their lands taken from them in ever greater amounts until many were unable to feed themselves (one notes the starvations of the centuries and sees how much was due to the nonproductive armies which needed to be fed as well as feudal or government management).

The very system of thought which led men to conquer more and more could be compared to a beast that ultimately endangered both them and their fellows and brought them all to ruin and near extinction…all because of the thought that enough to eat now is not enough and that more must be owned, possessed, and taken.

This very spirit—which cannot be satisfied no matter how many billions are on its bank account—is threatening us today.

It has been this influence which has deprived the ‘peasants’ of virtually all of their arable land. Derrick Jensen points out in a letter from a southerner to an abolitionist before the civil war:

“We wish we could live without slavery, but here land is so plentiful that if we do not have slaves, no one will work our fields. They will simply grow their own food, build their own homes, and make their own clothing. It isn’t as in the northern cities where men must work if they are not to starve.”

In other words, the ‘morality’ of the yankees before the Civil War was to have found a method to continue a very profitable slavery without owning the actual slaves. By taking lands away through force of State, (which land provided food, clothing, and shelter) the poor had no way to provide these things for themselves except through working for the money which the owners of the capital paid them.

However, they became unnecessary competitors with their brethren, each trying to outdo the other for the lowest wage and became engaged in a massive contest to improve the value of their labor for their employers so as to be able to provide in some fashion adequately for themselves and their families. And this in a world where there was more than enough land for everyone to have their own area to subsist upon. But such is the power of the concept of domination, carried out primarily by the State.

Even the Church was used to teach those who were without that their treasures would be great in heaven, in a future life, and that they should simply turn the other cheek and endure inhuman working conditions rather than fight against a system that through arms and the force of finance kept them as slaves in fact if not in name.

Which brings us to today.

We see a stronger tendency than ever, everywhere in the world for land to be claimed, ‘owned’ and managed by the rich and powerful, and especially by faceless governments and multinational corporations.

Though many in the developed world have enjoyed relative prosperity under this system, even the former winners of the system are being edged out of the basic space in which to live as ownership of housing consolidates to the mega-rich and to banks and financial institutions (anyone who pays a mortgage does not own their dwelling. As an aside, mortgage is a French word coming from mort = death and gage = to engage—so an engagement to or until death).

Those without resources to pay—monthly—are consigned to homelessness or to rely on the very system that enfranchised them and stole their property to feed and clothe them.

In this context, Occupy was born.

Occupy is to me the fundamental realization of ‘space’. It answers the question of ‘where’.

This question is very key, but is often ignored.

If we do not have any space in which we can be, the questions of what and how and why are irrelevant. Lacking fundamental spaces in which to meet, discuss, express ourselves, and find solutions to fulfilling our needs, we have chosen to occupy those spaces which have been stolen from us.

And this is declaring war upon the system which has stolen our space from us.

Comment, share: http://www.bayraba.com/why-the-space-to-occupy-is-so-important/

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

With 7B people on this earth - perhaps someone should figure out how much "space" would actually be available to each living person, give you your "space" and see if your attitude changes any.

That farmer in Kansas IS NOT working more and more land because he loves his "space", makes more and more money - he is doing it because he has to feed 28 other people besides his own family just to keep those 28 from starving to death in their high rise apartment in NYC.

And yes, you have some valid historical points, but if you want to equate land and space in today's world, you are going to find all the parks in all the cities filled with people crawling all over each other and they won't all be OWS protesters. See you at the grocery store.

[-] 1 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

Read "Sacred Economics"...you don't need very much land to feed an amazing number of people and the farmer in Kansas is not farming in a very efficient manner.

As long as you believe in scarcity, it will exist. For you.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Who says the farmer in Kansas is not farming in a very efficient manner? What would you suggest.

I for one, do believe in scarcity of ALL things, including land, and we today have reached, in my opinion, a pretty good balance between that scarcity and providing for the population that this earth now supports.

Another point that I might point out to you, is this, if you think that more population on that land that the Kansas farmer now "ownes" and labors on would produce more food and relieve the scarcity that you do not want to exist - consider this, you are talking about a movement back in time. Let's say that 1,000 individuals could survive on that land with their own little plots. Would you be willing to accept the smoke from 1,000 coal burning stoves on those plots providing for the cooking and heating needs of those individuals and creating a disasterous carbon footprint or would you prefer the 1,000 individuals live in a high rise in NYC with a much lower carbon footprint eating food provided by that Kansas Farmer today.

Perhaps your more narrow definition of efficiency and scarcity should be expanded beyond what one or a few people could do to consider what the other 7B would be expected to do.

[-] 1 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

Saying that our system is efficient or effective...we are destroying the planet (and other people) with how it is now. It can't continue in a military industrial way for infinite growth, what do you think?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I think that we may not have a choice with an earth facing 7.5B population. What do you think?

[-] 1 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

We already produce way more food than we need. (There was an article about a decade ago in Newsweek saying that we can easily support 100 B people on this planet)... There is lots and lots of land in very few hands. So it's a question of distribution and not resources or production.

New article here: http://www.bayraba.com/creating-and-living-the-abundance-economy/

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

WE (American farmers) produce "way more food than we need" and that it why one of our largest sources of export is food to the rest of the world. It really is not a matter of who's hands the land is in, it is a matter of their being enough farmable land. This is often limited by continuing war in countries, ability to distribute the food in some countries, lack of roads, etc.

We may easily be able to support more than the 7B people on earth today, it become a matter of how many people are willing to move back into huge cities, how much we will tolerate GMO's, drawing water from non replenishing sources, using more and more herbicides-insecticides-fertilizer. etc. What is your stand of these things??

[-] 1 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

Have you read "Sacred Economics" yet? Or at least read what the author says? Basically, our money system is broken.

Fixed, almost everything that is now crazy will return to sanity.

Read the book :)

[-] 0 points by fighton (15) 2 years ago

Soon or later you guys are going to be evicted. Those camping cannot be always on the alert every night and the crowd cannot come out to support you every night.

Do a counterattack. When the police are out in large numbers, it means they are leaving the police stations undermanned. Groups of you should do a sneak attack to occupy some of these police stations.

[-] 1 points by AuditElmerFudd (259) 2 years ago

Not a good idea.

[-] -1 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

"Police are once again attacking Occupy Los Angeles after occupiers..." What am I hearing this right, are OWS gone mad or just trying to provoke the public to turn on their government? This is call conspiracy to commit treason! Police officer are up hold the laws for all of us not the 1% so call OWS protesters, yes OWS is the 1% no matter how I see it in each and every city, NY has population of 8,000,000 people, how many protester? do they voice all other New Yorkers, the answer is they don't, so go home get a life. stop wasting tax dollars.

[-] -1 points by Nemo52 (0) 2 years ago

Occupy Wall street is a left wing extremist group of agitators funded by George Soros and super rich socialists. The group is composed of anarchists, communists, union communist workers and some well intentioned gullible youngsters. This is Obama's dream of establishing the so called "brown shirts" A well organized army aimed to destroy Capitalism. No crisis goes to waste: The fundamental change of Amerika into a CCCP. Change you can believe in!

http://biggovernment.com/cowens/2011/11/28/richmond-city-audits-local-tea-party-after-standoff-with-mayor/

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[-] -1 points by Ivankatrump (-4) 2 years ago

Who is writing the utter nonsense on this "news" site. OWS has not sucessfully defended "liberty square" or any other square in any city if for any other reason than OWS is out manned, lawed and gunned by the so called police state and has earned the indifference of the so called 99% by it purile actions including this ludicrious propaganda sounding website. straighten up or go the fuck home!

[-] -1 points by Adam (116) 2 years ago

Arm yourselves and organize into a military or go home and get a job. You lost all my support when you asked for donations, you made an enemy of me when you started using commercials.

[-] -1 points by OWSWhat (66) 2 years ago

Hey OWS goons launch a counter attack. I want to see the cops beat the chit out of some lowlifes

[-] -1 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

dumb the issues is not that you are peaceful or not, you are braking the laws. go home!

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Protesting IS NOT breaking the law, regardless of what the police say and do. No laws can go above the Constitution..... regardless of what anyone's opinion is. Please go and read the Constitution.

[-] -1 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

I am going to exercise my freedom of speech and press, so I can call you names and do what ever I like in front of public property that might get in your way? then I will do it now, you stupid fool police man is called LAW ENFORCEMENT for a reason, they enforce the law in case you haven't go that, unless you are the judge that make such verdict. SO WHEN POLICE officer announced you are braking the law, and you have the right to remain silent, and you have the right to an attorney and so on that means you are braking the laws , it does not matter you are protesting or not, you take it to the court but not here. In case fools out there still don't get the point, I bet you would not exercise your second amendment on the public street , it is clearly stated that every one has the right to bear arm, so why don't you? OWS get a point and go home then form a leadership group to fight for us, if you want to know who really defend our right as stated in the constitution the organization is call America Riffle Association. They been doing it for years to fight with court system why can't we bear arm. OWS want to uphold the 1st amendment, that is great do it by legal remedy in mean time when police shows up respect them, they are up holding and represent the law, learn to respect other is the first steps of any movement .

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

The Constitutional law ALLOWS people to protest on PUBLIC property as long as it is peaceful protest and regardless of whether it gets in the way of people walking or not.

YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE LAW.

[-] -1 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

then why don't you bear arm in the public place according to the 2nd amendment of the constitution? you don't because police will arrest you for position of weapon. This tells you the constitution do not over pass the federal, state, and local laws. When there is a conflict between the two then it is taken up to the judges of the supreme court to determine if in facts the laws has violated the constitution. This is what the National Raffle Association has been fighting for years- the right to bear arm. Protest has a time and methods that can be accept by the law, when the police office shows up and asking to disassemble you should obey the officers and the laws, then take your issues up to the judges. The way OWS is wording its headlines like office is attacking and etc. is trying to provoke a violent action from the protester, so a true none violent and peaceful protest should be physical and mentally not using words and graphics that provoke fighting. Police officers are up holding the laws so respect it and take your fight at the court, not here and not at the time off been evicted. By the way I do know laws and my right, if the first amendment is the word should up hold above any laws, then do you know the US government has already violated it from the day one it was written, why? go take a look at the testing question and sworn document related to N400 US citizenship question air process, in there clear stated the one who is going to become a US citizen he or she must not believe communism and Nazi government so where is the freedom in that statement? I am a free man I do what the fart I want , I like to protest and sleep in the park with a tent, who cares how other feels as long as part of the 99%. In addition is this mean after becoming a citizen of the US I can believe communism or Nazi be cause now I am protected by the constitution but not before it? Think about it what are 99 % protesting about and its effectiveness, don't be a sheep that follows.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

"The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions. In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia[1][2] and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Additionally, the Court enumerated several longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession that it found were consistent with the Second Amendment.[3] In McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.[4]"

You are completely wrong. The right to bear arms doesn't mean you can go around in public flashing your guns.

Notice how it says, "In McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.[4]"

Furthermore, equating what the 2nd Amendment says with what the 1st Amendment says about peaceably assembling is absolutely ridiculous.

Your opinions are so ridiculously skewed. I will just ignore you from now on, because you lack the capacity to rationalize what laws say and don't say.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Well, OK. But if you pay Federal Income taxes do you not do so under a law that is at least equal to the Constitution in its' authority.

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

What does paying taxes have to do with people claiming protesting on public property is illegal? THAT'S my point.... since you missed it. Laws to pay federal income taxes still don't go ABOVE the Constitution, do they?

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Simple question, are they included in the Constitution?? If not, they must be equal to it or above it.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 2 years ago

Cut the insults, please.

[-] -3 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

the people who is doing it is insulting their own intelligent and those people who follows them don't know why they are been arrested. LAW and ORDER get it! all amendment is not a shield against braking the laws, otherwise why no one practicing the 2nd amendment ?????

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Protesting IS NOT breaking the law. You don't know what you're talking about.

[-] -1 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

Police officer please peaceful send them home.

[-] -1 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

I am watching the live local news broadcast of the event. LAPD is nowhere to be seen. No one is being attacked or surrounded. The only LAPD even near the OWS site are the ones standing in front of the police station that is a block away.

If OWS demands respect it has to be truthful in its reporting and tone down the hysteria.

[-] 3 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago

About a thousand cops at Occupy LA right now.

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

They all poured out of city hall about 15 minutes ago and surrounded the OWS campsite. It was a quick move that caught everyone off guard and also separated most of the protesters from the campsite.

[-] 1 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago
[-] -1 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 2 years ago

Oooh, LAPD did a move that caught everyone off guard. while people were in the intersection dancing and chanting, LAPD poured out of City Hall and surrounded the OWS camp thereby separating most of the protesters from the campsite. No violence. police showing great restraint while some idiots are blaring megaphones in the cops' faces.

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[-] -2 points by OWSWhat (66) 2 years ago

As of this moment the OWS goons are getting a severe pounding, he he he ha ha ha

[-] -2 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Occupy has nothing to say anymore. It just creates confrontations with the police and talks about them ad nauseam.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Do you? It seems you're just a copycat site.

[-] 0 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

OMG I'm BEEEMING!

I'm so flattered that you noticed.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Just like it says:

Facebook for the People!

Thanks for the props!

BTW: Not so much a "copy" as and IMPROVEMENT!

[-] 2 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

It's a cheap ripoff. People without ideas to this kind of thing. On top of that, it's illegal.

[-] -1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

It doesn't get any more original than this:

http://metapolitik.org/article/approaching-metapolitical-discourse

As for legality, Facebook does not have a monopoly on cloud based social networks. Furthermore, both copyright law and the first amendment protect my ability to make parodies and derivative works.

None of which has anything to do with the article in question, much less the subject of this thread.

Just more ad-hominem attacks from Glaucon your friendly neighborhood TROLL.

GLAU as in GLAUCOMA - for your lack of vision or ability to see what's right in front of you

CON as in CON ARTIST, which of course is exactly what you are.

Thanks for playing Glaucon.

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[+] -4 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

there is no freedom in USA, listen to the narrator's Bull crap, if there is no freedom you can occupy the wall street for two months? US Government has tolerated the OWS clowns for as long as possible, if ows are for the people then most of us will be with you but OWS don't make any sense.

[-] 4 points by Peretyatkov (241) from город Пенза, Пензенская область 2 years ago

The freedom of which you speak - today, on the Earth is none. No in one country of the World!

[+] -5 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

freedom does not mean braking the laws any where in the world.

[-] 3 points by ImaginaaationG (28) from Canton, OH 2 years ago

Henry David Thoreau, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. were all considered law breakers of their time and it all came down to civil rights. And are you saying such laws as Blythe, California : You are not permitted to wear cowboy boots unless you already own at least two cows., Riverside, California, kissing on the lips, unless both parties wipe their lips with carbonized rose water, is against the local health ordinance. (California)It is illegal for a secretary to be alone in a room with her boss., (Colorado) It is illegal for a woman wearing a red dress to be out on the street past 7....you get where I'm coming from? There are a lot of rules out there, some completely necessary, and some way beyond reasoning. The fact is, law is written by man, the same type of man who happens to run this country, whether it be through politics, the financial system or religion. Just because there are laws in place mainly to protect someone's interest, doesn't mean they work for everyone and if we didn't have law breakers in the past we wouldn't have seen what man is truly capable of.

[-] 3 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Winning freedom has ALWAYS meant breaking existing laws throughout all of history. The "illegal occupation" by the Bonus Army in 1930 helped put pressure on Congress back then, and rallied independents to oust Hoover in favor of FDR. It helped rally popular support back then against the same kind of laissez-faire economics and banker dominated policies we are oppressed with again today.

The illegal occupations of public spaces in Egypt and Tunisia led to the first genuinely democratic elections in either of those nation's histories. The USA - both its people and its government - overwhelmingly supported those illegal occupations. Domestically, however, that same government and many people exhibit a different standard. It is OK, courageous, and freedom-loving to occupy public space overseas, but not here? I love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

Many of the marches Dr. King led in the 1960s were illegal, since no permits would ever be granted. Ghandi's mass demonstrations were mostly illegal.

Ideally, laws are made to protect civil society. But when that society's laws are made only to protect the power elite - written expressly to maintain their power at everyone else's expense - civil disobedience of those laws is in order. All major gains in all societies' freedoms everywhere in the world has occurred as a direct result of such disobedience.

Those include the freedoms you yourself enjoy today. Including the right to insult people who are fighting on your behalf to restore freedoms taken from you by a system that grants them to the wealthy and powerful alone.

[-] 3 points by Peretyatkov (241) from город Пенза, Пензенская область 2 years ago

There is a desire for development, there is a desire and brakes. This is the Truth! I, for development and for the Truth! But, the truth picture is from a many perspectives. The Truth - As 3D model.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Again, protesting is not breaking the law in the USA. You need to learn about the rights that are granted to the people via the Constitution.

[+] -5 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

You have the right to assemble. You do not have the right to squat, loiter, or damage public property. What the HELL is a movement that chooses to sit still? You you guys spend more of your time, fighting to squat in a park so you can spout off IDEAS (not solutions)TO EACH OTHER than you do actually pushing solutions for the things you claim bothers you. Choosing not to have a leader or a solid message almost directly combats the theory of democracy. This is disorganized. Its incommunicable. And it it completely justified that the city choose to disperse you from your place of squatting. Just because you're being told to leave doesn't mean that you can't go and assemble somewhere else. You're a movement right? So move. The occupation will die because it is represented by non-action hipster, pseudo-intellectual college graduates who believe that idealism is the same thing as implementation. You're suppressing yourselves as much as anyone else. The difference between a thought and an action is the difference between a dream and reality. Just because you're holding a sign and screaming at officers doesn't mean that you are active. You are all CONTENT to be exactly as you are; no voice, no face, no integrity as a movement and refuse to adapt to your surroundings. And yet you think its right to ask others to do as you won't. I wish everyone could see the REAL potential the movement has. Vietnam already happened. You're not doing anything new. By choosing to abandon working methods that have succeeded for past movements you are choosing to cut off your damn legs. You need to go before ALL the people, not just YOUR people, state your purpose, and the tell people what EXACTLY you intend to do about it, not what you want OTHER'S to do for you. Power is given BY the people. And it can be taken away. Standing around and holding signs and HOPING people will receive and consider a muddled message is as good as doing nothing.

[-] 5 points by Thunderhands (32) from National City, CA 2 years ago

Like the ancient Chinese oracle the I-ching says " Be like water." Water although perceived as soft has the ability to FILL UP all the low places until it overcomes or overflows. Water has the ability to wear down great mountains with time. Also,,, an army without a leader is lost. Another classic on war and strategy, (this is a war!!) Sun Tzu's art of war. In the chapter laying plans..."The commander must stand for the virtues of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness. The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemies plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemies forces; the next in order is to attack the enemies forces in the field; and the worst policy all is to besiege walled cities. Follow the THUNDER!!!!! Don't just Occupy,,,take over!!!! Seep in quietly under cover of darkness to the low places,,, meaning easily accessible,, balk the enemies plans by showing up in unexpected areas. Some say this is not a war,,, how untrue! It's a a war against complacency,and it's a real war in the sense that our brothers an sisters are being injured physically, detained and thrown in jail! Don't just be a movement,,,,to politically correct!! Be a force to be reckoned with!

[-] 0 points by guitarmywin (158) 2 years ago

Thank you for the inspiring language. Yes, it has all shifted and the guns are being prepared as we speak. This is a victorious movement because there is no other choice. keep up the powerful magic your words will manifest!!!!

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[-] 5 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago

So what are you doing to enact change? sitting at home typing long paragraphs?

The movements been active for Three months. Change doesn't occur in that time, especially when so many of the population are held hostage so strongly that they've even begun to love their stockholm syndrome. Go over to the53.tumblr.com and see how depressing it is.

[-] 4 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

That's so right. It will take a LONG time to unravel and change layers of bullshit.

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[-] 2 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Apparently so. Then the poster leaves. It clearly is an anger filled rant. Nothing more.

[-] 3 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

Excuse me for having work and responsibilities that take priority in my day over checking to see who's bitching about something I said on the internet.

[-] 1 points by MrX (61) 2 years ago

The words "Me" "My", and "I" define you.

[-] 1 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

Well after all, I am only one person. I'm not going say "WE" because it was only me. That would be silly wouldn't it? The response had to do with me and thus I answered for myself. What else would you have me say?

[-] 1 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago

What would you suggest to people who have not found a job for a month? six months? two years? continue passing their overquallified applications around fruitlessly? The fact that you got lucky does not mean that everyone can be lucky.

More Snicket coming at you.

"Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example."

[-] 1 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago

Exactly, some of us DON'T have jobs. 23 million of us in fact. Maybe that makes things clearer for you.

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[-] 0 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

I can't change anything by myself. Occupy is a collective group of angry people who are in their beliefs and "goals" by themselves. They share a common anger and a common enemy but no common SPECIFIC outcome. There is nothing wrong with someone stepping up and attempting to Sheppard or motivate the people to one common goal. I'm in no place to do that. I don't have the support and commonality of people around me where I am. This is not to say that consensus should be abandoned. But there is a better way of attacking many problems without attacking them individually. There is a hub to what is fundamentally wrong in this country that causes a chain reaction in all other harmful things. I hear it pin pointed ALL the time. Everyone in united in the idea of getting money out of politics. No one is united in the SOLUTION to getting money out of politics.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

"No one is united in the SOLUTION to getting money out of politics."

Yes they are. Demanding it be illegal is the way and making it law. I think people agree on that.

[-] -2 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

Tell me what solution has officially be proposed to the Government. Tell me EXACTLY what solution has been drafted. You can demand and squawk all you want but why would they do that work for something only YOU care about? Help yourself to help your county. Holding a sign that says "Get corporate out of politics" is not the SAME as sending an official proposal that says "Here's how we get corporate out of politics." If no one is listening the MAKE them listen. Because ignoring occupy is as simple as turning off the television.

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

That is a ridiculous argument. The problem has been identified and various acceptable solutions have been pushed for by the movement, (eg Repeal Citizens United, End Corporate Personhood, Institute publicly funded elections, cap donations at $1k and ban PAC slush-funds) Coming up with one end all solution would simply be limiting. If it failed no progress would have been made and people like you would say, "Look, they failed, see I told you so." The Civil Rights marchers didn't all carry signs saying "Pass the Civil Rights Act" That was one major step in trying to gain equality.

[-] 1 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago

Lemony Snicket said it best.

"People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending."

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Proposed amendment to the Constitution:

http://movetoamend.org/

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[-] 4 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

People who are protesting have the right to take up and use public space. Saying people are allowed to protest but can't loiter or squat on public property is completely asinine and contradictory. Protesting on public property IS NOT squatting.

[-] 2 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

Camping out in public space for 2 months while living in a tent and shitting in a bucket most definitely is squatting.
And blockading the park so that families can't take their kids their anymore most definitely is disrupting the peace (negating the requirement of 'peaceable* assembly) Westboro protests peaceably. they don't squat, they don't blockade. They protest within the Constitution and the law. They infringe on no one else's rights.

Occupy has to stop pretending these things are 'ok' to do, or that they have a right to do them, and own up and man up that its civil disobedience for a cause. I makes you more honest about what you're doing.

[-] 2 points by BTKcongress (149) 2 years ago

i'm not doing that. and i have a very lucrative job, so do many other supporters who are fortunate. i visit every other night for several hours. and usually on the weekends for 6 hours or so. the news won't tell you this, in fact i just saw a clip in which they implied that the people who are there have been there for many months. and this is patently false---MANY like me go there when we can to show support.

[-] 2 points by Babyswiss (4) from Wixom, MI 2 years ago

So everyone should be more like the WBC? No excuse for people who spread hate.

I'd rather shit in a bucket for 2 months...

[-] 0 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

You just twisted the meaning of his example to the furthest extent to satisfy your distaste to his response. In context he is say EVEN the WBC a fundamentally evil organization is well aware of how to obey the law and stage a protest. Just because Hitler motivated a nation to the demise of an entire religious population does not mean he was not a motivator and a most accomplished speaker, however evil his intentions were. For belonging to a movement that constantly complains that the media is representing OWS falsely you sure are quick turn something into what its not.

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[-] 3 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

Something is not nothing. In fact, your participation in this forum equates to something and having good or bad opinions of of the actions going on around the globe equates to participation in the movement. So thank you for your support and attention. Apparently, the "squatters" nothing was enough of something to get you to type your post. Again thank you for your participation. There are many facets of this movement.... one is right here and thousands of other websites, forums and chatrooms where non squatters share information and opinions. Other elements are various types of protests on the streets and in buildings. There are more passive actions like the family discussions and friendly debates of issues. What all of these "somethings" are doing is raising awareness of a variety of political and social concerns specific to individuals, groups, societies, and even the human race. Naysayers want specifics... unfortunately for them, those will not be available for some time. This is the very beginning. I would recommend you spend your time participating in the movement to find issues important to you rather than flaming out on a message board. It's a much more valuable use of your time. I have found elements of this movement that helped me learn more about issues important to me and my family like political corruption, the abolishment of free press, and the dismantling of our educational system. I was once a naysayer like you..... trying to find a reason for somebody else squatting... Then I began to really dig in to all of the information that this movement has made available... and found what I was looking for. Dig deeper lok... I think you'll find something worthwhile.

[-] -2 points by Lok (7) 2 years ago

I'm not a naysayer. I can't say nay to something that I'm not seeing or hearing. Of course I have issues that are important to me. Do I stand out on a picket line every time something happens that I don't like? No. I don't have time or energy for that. I also have bills to pay and a job to work and a degree to get. But I know where the fundamental problem lies. I know WHAT needs to be fixed in order to fix everything else. But too little people do. Occupy gets side tracked by things like budget cuts and pissy little mayors and distracted by things like a brutal police department and encampment raids. They are not trying to stop the movement. Can't stop something that isn't moving. Believe it or not they are actually trying to get you off the grass you're killing and property you're vandalizing. They don't CARE what you have to say because they have NO idea what you're talking about. When you're being moved, that's not a death sentence. Its not necessarily always right. But you won't win every battle.

[+] -5 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

What I am looking for in all of my digging is some intelligence within the organization that can see with any depth what the problem is, how we got there, and what the problems really are coupled with a coherent plan of action (non-violent).

If you do not have, within your OWS group, even one person who has a deep knowledge of the business climate of the 1960's and how that has been twisted into the 20th century concept of the purpose of the Corporation, you are doomed to failure.

Feel free to take a stab at putting these FIVE things in priority order for the 1960 period and 2011 period as they apply to the corporation today:

CEO SHAREHOLDERS CUSTOMERS EMPLOYEES PRODUCTS

If you can correctly do this, you will know where the problem lies. If not, you are simply peeing into the wind.

[-] 3 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

For me, I am not interested in the purpose of a corporation as much as I am interested in the role of corporations just like the role of citizens, politicians.. etc. in a functioning democracy. Roles and responsibilities trump purpose in my view.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Why were you not protesting the big corporations in the 1960's If you are that old to have done so.

If you do not know the difference between 1960 and 2011, how will you know whether to protest in 2020 or not???

If you do not know HOW the corporations have changed from 1960 to today in the trumped "roles and responsibilities" how do you have any basis for your protest.

In my opinion, you are simply protesting without being able to identify WHY you protest. Everyone can identify your target as well as you can - very few can answer the question, WHY is that your target? Pick an answer:

  1. Because that is where the money is.
  2. Because they are all corrupt.
  3. Because some of them are corrupt.
  4. Because they have more influence than I do in politics.
  5. I am just pi____ at Federal Express.
  6. They have reversed their roles and responsibilities
  7. They won't pay for my college tuition.
  8. They overpay their CEO's in CASH.
  9. None of the above
[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

I'll go with 3 ,4 ,6 , 8 , my oppinion is that 6 is the strongest , esspecially in the oil companies , who poison the Earth with our agreement , because we are too ignorant to see that if we do not change our means of transportation into clean means of transportation we might change thee planet in ways that are nonreversable . 3 Because money is the main source of power , and since the Bretton-Woods agreement , were money became literally worthless a series of crisys occured more often than before . Well money can also buy politicians , esspecialy LAWS that favor the rich , like the Bretton-Woods . And you've seen how they pay their CEO's , a normal engineer who creates valor by building something or fixing something is paid 100 times less than a financial engineers that distribute money in the ecomomic circuit .... but my oppinon is that they play games with the wealth of nations . The European Union is on the edge of collapse and i have no doubt that this crisys was manufactured for this purpose , or to have the EU lend money from the IMF . The same scenario occurs with the bank of England in the Napoleonic Wars , when the bank was " raped " by the Rothschild family . You want solutions ? Well first of all a study of the Corporatiion is necesary , you re right on that , and i would really want to see the dismantlement of the IMF , Central Bank of Europe and all these monetary institutions that are above any country , USA ,EU, and so on . That for me would be a start .

[-] 1 points by SeaChange (134) 2 years ago

I'll go with 4, 4 and 4. But I would change the word "I" to "all US citizens combined". That's my beef. If we could fix that, we could fix the rest.

The reason number 4 is true is because of 1 and 3. But 4 is the real problem.

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

Ron, that makes a great deal of sense. I wonder why Occupy picks places to invade/blockade that only hurt the little guy. Rationales abound like 'well, we have to hurt the little guy to wake him up' or 'its only hurting him a little bit which is ok to do because the corps and banks have hurt him more' All propaganda, no real reasons. Just once I'd like to see someone be able to answer' we are blocking this space because that's where the 1% is.'

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Probably, because they know how and have enough knowledge to hurt the little guy in their supposed superiority.

Put one of them in a CEO's office with a list of the real questions, and they would mumble like a teen age boy from a little town encountering Miley Cyrus on the street.

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Me: "What opportunities will you create in the United States with the excess profit you've gained by moving most of your workforce overseas." CEO: "Well, GDP growth, ummm. Have you read Rich Dad Poor Dad? Security!!"

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If you were not full of your name, you might try out this CEO reply:

Well, I could hire you here to represent our corporation in China and other countries as a source procurer, production control expert to see that we are not getting goods from child labor factories, you could be a shipping coordinator, a finance coordinator, a design and spec control agent, a trainer,............ Any of these jobs interest you?? We have hundreds more.

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

I highly doubt they would want anyone to shed any light on whether they were manufacturing goods with child labor. That might cut into their profits. All the jobs you mention seem to be management jobs. So I, (the American) can have one of those cushy jobs while the Chinese get $1.75 for working in the factory. You see, OWS and its supporters care about social responsibility and don't want prosperity to be something that can only be gained at another's expense. You might disagree with that, but it doesn't mean you have a greater understanding than anyone else.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Suggest you may want to protest in an area of even greater need for social responsibility the.

[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

they might be verry appealing to most of the people , but that''s ehy the OWS was created , to put light on the dirty tricks the banks and corporations are still doing . Now the Corporations are not as bad as the banks , they are like a union of shareholders that seek profit , nothing bad in this , but the price for this profit is what must worry us , because it's getting higher and higher , and only a few see the bigger picture and know that everything has a price . Well a bank is like a middleman in economy , a entity that gives money to companies in form of credits so those companies can expand , the origins of the credit is the money deposited by ordinary men . Well that's the ideal definition , verry short and unrealistic ,cause someway along the road , the lended money to ordinarry people , most of all ignorant , and then call in all the money knowing that they cant pay all of the credit at once , so they took their homes . The same thing was done at the level of nations (greece) only they used derivatives for that . Sadly the bank is necessary in a monetary system , but a better solution must be found , because a few more crysis like this one , and trust me there are more to come , and we will be no more than slaves .

[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

"supposed" is the key word , in every kind of combat , pride and superiority is a main step to losing the first prize.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

These are simply your claims, WHY is it your target?

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Because the profit motive imbues it with many perverse incentives that are damaging to the society as a whole, including but not limited to; privatizing the commons, socializing risk and privatizing reward, disseminating misleading information, capturing supposedly democratic institutions to achieve narrow, selfish goals, avoiding social responsibilities of all types (tax-dodging, environmental destruction) supporting war if it is profitable. It is a target because it has been constructed as, and has developed the qualities of a type of institution that is immensely powerful and unaccountable. These are qualities that make it anti-democratic. To force democratic responsibility on these types of organizations is a big part of what OWS hopes to do. I can talk about several ways to move toward doing this if you'd like to have a discussion.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Why spend all of your time devising ways to move toward (forward). something.

Why don't you just look back, and go there. Most of what you are describing existed at one time in the corporations of this country and are still being heavily practiced in some of the biggest ones today.

You as part of, I assume, the new generation want to reinvent the wheel and "force democratic responsibility on these types of organizations". If you want to spend all of your time with this reinvention and force of an idea, more power to you. Come back in five or ten years and we will see how you are doing.

Think a minute and identify ONE or maybe TWO if you are really thinking, corporations that already hold the ideals that you are espousing, or have you simply written all of them as your target of vitriol??

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

I have written them all off, because the way that they are set up to make decisions is anti-democratic. If a corporation espoused ideals of social responsibility but was doing it because the top-down hierarchy that runs it decided it was better for PR, or the CEO had found Jesus, they would most likely be put out of business by the corporations that were more cut-throat. In addition, that wouldn't be good enough for me, the next CEO or board of directors could easily turn right back around. I disagree with the power dynamic that results in any institution that is structured as a corporation and I question the basis of their "ownership" of products that couldn't exist without labor and natural resources, neither of which they can legitimately own, in my opinion.

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[-] 1 points by vnayar (289) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

You are assuming that you can make a single ordered list of priorities that describe all corporations in 1960 vs 2011. There were good and bad companies then, and there are good and bad companies today. Even if we describe this vague set of "priorities", it means nothing outside of a vague speculation about people's thought process, and leaves us with no action to take.

If you want specifics, let's talk about the law:

  • The 1872 Mining Act is still on the books. Large precious metal companies get exclusive mining rights at their 1872 prices, $5 per acre. Why is that?
  • Capital gains tax rate is 15%, yet salary tax rate goes up to 35%. The IRS reports that the 400 wealthiest households pay on average 16.5% in taxes. Why is that?
  • Media broadcasters are still governed by the 1934 Communications Act. The frequencies they use were auctioned off long ago and now all they pay is a trivial regulation fee, $9000 if you have over 3 million listeners for FM radio (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-300745A1.doc). There are similar fees for television. These companies have a hold on public property (rights to broadcast frequencies), pay no property tax, and yet there is not a single public communication frequency available. Why?
  • After the Fairness Doctrine was repealed in 1987, the Presidential Debates are now hosted by a private company, The Commission on Presidential Debates. They and their private sponsors control who may participate, how long they may speak, and even what questions may be asked. Why?
  • Free trade agreements like NAFTA and others that have allowed corporations to pit American workers against the worst conditions from around the world in a desperate dive towards bottom level wages and environmental protection in an attempt to be "competitive". Who does this help?
  • Corporations have a special tax law called "Loss Carryback" that allows them to reclaim previous year's tax payments at the corporate tax rate of 35%. Court settlements are tax deductible as well, as long as the corporation is not facing a criminal fine. So companies like BP that do massive damage and take losses can push up to 70% of their liabilities onto the tax payer.
  • Our tax money is being continually thrown into war, yet there is nothing left for health services, education, scientific research, or infrastructure repair. The Taliban didn't attack us. Iraq didn't attack us. Libya didn't attack us. Somalia didn't attack us. Yemen didn't attack us. Pakistan didn't attack us. The USSR is gone and the Cold War is over. Where the hell is our money going?
  • The Glass-Steagal Act repeal in 1999 allows speculative investment banks to take massive risks and pass it onto the tax payer.
  • The SEC leverage requirement ratio was changed in 2005 from 12-to-1 to 50-to-1. It wasn't the mortgages that tanked the economy, it was the fact that they were leveraged at 50-to-1 in badly formulated junk securities that we bailed out at 100 cents on the dollar.
  • The 2006 and 2007 FBI reports on mortgage fraud, during the time period of massive leveraging and speculation, show that 80% of mortgage fraud was conducted by industry insiders and lenders (http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/fcs_report2006). Why were there no criminal prosecutions?

Is that specific enough for you or is it "peeing into the wind"? This stuff is pretty obvious for anyone born before 1980 who could see with their own eyes the changes going around them. OWS provides, for the first time I've ever seen, a forum where these kinds of issues can be discussed.

[-] 1 points by ClericTGLAM (11) from Middle, NJ 2 years ago

Well let me start , The CEO 's make wayyy to much money , they wages are huge , and the primes go beyond huge , i wasn t born in the '60 so i dont know much but i bet they were'nt paid so much , the shareholders are heart of a corporation , they just want to make more money , it's not necessary bad , but profit comes at a cost , it is the main law of economy , and knowing when to stop is a virtue that many don't have . The customers are us .... ignorant , greedy and idealistic , thinking that the good times will last forever , they wont , cause dark clouds are gathering and this crysis is one of them . The employees are the same as customers , only more determined to fight against the ows , cause they are dependent on the corporations , or so they think . And last of all the mighty PRODUCTS , sold at low prices , in large numbers and quantities so that we become comfortable with the establishment of the economy , and we consume ..... more than we need , more than we can afford , brainless consuption is the real name of economy . In ancient Greek , the word economy means to gather , not spend , ironic right?. Oh and our stab should go at all these terms , not to wound , but to change . Peace.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Lets see. I suppose you are implying with your little CEO--Products hierarchy that businesses had more social responsibility in the 1960s than they do now. Maybe because they were less globalized and generally had workforces in their own countries they felt a little more paternalistic concern. Also, corporate and individual tax rates were higher, so whether they liked it or not they had to contribute to programs for the social good (education, soc. sec. etc) to a greater degree than they do today. Also, as a legacy of the progressive era and depression, there were much higher rates of union membership in the private sector, ensuring that wages increased at last in pace with inflation during someone's career. There were more industrial jobs overall due to less automation etc. Also the manufacturing sector constituted a larger segment of the overall economy, as stricter financial regulations kept investment banks from making money by doing nothing but shifting debts around and repackaging them. Have I hit your mysterious golden ring of "what the root of the problem is" yet or should I keep going, oh oracle? I am highly doubtful that all of your obscurantist pseudo-Socratic questioning is aimed at helping Occupy supporters identify the true problem/solution. If you thought you had such an insight, and are sympathetic ,why not share it rather than assuming other people's ignorance and condescending to them?

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Either way, I get the same reaction from you. That being the great putdown, and a piling on of sarcasm. You WIN - if you are happy, I am happy - just wallow in it.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

It was a pretty good put-down, too. Thanks! I figured since you've been assuming smug superiority with every post so far, I'd return the favor.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I have no intention of assuming or radiating any type of smug superiority, I am simply trying to find someone on one of these sights that either knows something already or that is ready to find out something on their own.

I DO NOT give lectures and I do not give tests. I also do not open the top of your head and pour knowledge into it. I do not believe that anyone is too dumb to learn - some may too lazy though.

The challenges that I placed on here, that you interpreted as a "smug superiority" have been taken up by some posters and they have expressed their knowledge and understanding of those challenges. They did not make assumptions about my intents, by background or my sincerity in what I presented as a challenge to them.

You and I on the other hand have spent way too much time discussing ME and your opinion of my challenges to you. I am all about a person's initiative, insights, knowledge, motivation to find out and other things that are the basis of teaching. You will have to live with the fact that I am and always will be a teacher - if you want to be a learner - you have to do a little work in the process.

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Ok. Let me apologize for using sarcasm and questioning your motives. However, in saying things like "what I am looking for here is some intelligence within the organization that can see with any depth what the problem is..." You are implying that your understanding of the problem is deeper/ more correct than what you assume to be the understanding of anyone involved with or sympathetic with OWS. I'm sorry if that wasn't your intention, but it does come across that way. Saying that you don't "pour knowledge" into people's heads still implies that you have more of it than them. Other than a bit of snippiness, I have spent most of my time in response to you "expressing my knowledge and understanding" of the "challenges" that you posed by expressing my understanding of the way corporations work, the roles people play relative to them and to society etc. If you noticed I responded by expressing what I believe to be the roles of the actors you listed in your previous post and how historical factors seem to have changed the relative importance/ power of those actors over time. I spend a lot of time learning about many things, but it seems that because I wasn't willing to accept you in your stated role as OWS' new teacher, you will simply take great offense that I was somewhat sarcastic and ignore all of my arguments in favor of demanding that I validate your "pick one of these five things and understand everything about corporations" lesson.

[-] 0 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

You're still not going to reveal your secret knowledge?

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

There is nothing secret about it. I lived through all of it. If you care, you will take a step back, find out what is going on, they you will NOT HAVE to relive it all again, BUT somehow, I think that you WiLL have to.

[-] 0 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Well look, you haven't said what is different in the order or a corporations priorities in 2011 vs. 1960. A corporations prime objective (since their inception) is to profit as much as possible, this is required to earn the shareholder returns. It would be expected to earn the CEO a lot of money. However, if you're implying that the workers, consumers and the quality of the products produced were more important in 1960 than in 2011, I would suggest that less regulation, lower taxation and the decline of home-based manufacturing in favor of financial services and globalized operations are the primary factors driving the change. What do you think has caused the change?

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

The same thing caused the change that keeps college graduates from finding a job, being successful in areas outside of their field of study, and finding success in what their life means to them.

The change?? GREED, but not that of the CEO, the employees, the products costs, or the customers. Now figure it out, what is left in my post from earlier.

I really don't want to have to explain this whole thing to you and then be torn to pieces as stupid because you don't understand.

I have taught people all my life. I do not like the lecture approach any more than I suspect, you do. I pose the question, if you cannot find the answer out for yourself - I will not stay after school and give you my lecture.

[-] 1 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

Ah, the shareholders! Even I can do "process of elimination" So, that's your big sticking point? That's why Occupy's directing their vitriol at corporations is ineffective? I'm sorry but I just don't see it. It seems to me that the "shareholder" and the CEO are usually in the same small group of people. Both want to get as much short term gain as they can. Are you suggesting that between 1960 and 2011 there have been a whole bunch of CEOs who went home and cried themselves to sleep because the shareholders forced them to lay people off, or pollute, or go into financial speculation instead of making cars or growing wheat? What you don't seem to understand is that the most important difference, the real difference in power and influence is between the people who are paid wages for labor and the people who own things and are able to keep (and to a great degree determine) the amount of profit they derive from using what they own in a particular way. That is why I have more respect for a union worker who tries to help others get a fair share than I have for someone who ships jobs overseas to make a greater profit for himself and then says, "Well, some of you can be dock supervisors now." If you don't want people to "tear you down as stupid" then maybe you should avoid going to a forum where people are expressing sympathy for like minded citizens who've been arrested and beaten and making comments that imply they don't have any basis for their beliefs. Just sayin.

[-] 2 points by yogurt (2) 2 years ago

If enough people, say 25,0000 actually got active, all of the protests or actions that OWS does undertake would have a destabilizing effect on the status quo. OWS has already brought the most important issue right now, income disparity, to the forefront of the global conversation. That started with just a few hundred people in a park. Even if you can't dedicate your life to living in a park, you can be ready to be active in your city. With our ability to mass network, that many bodies could precipitate substantial positive change, they use crises to advance their agenda, now it is our turn. If you think that the evictions taking place are for removing squatters and preserving public health, wake up. Every major think tank has predicted some form of a rising of the proletariat in the next 50 years, and the elite are scared, as laughable as that may seem. The tension being fomented through a 30 year assault on living standards, public institutions and liberty are only growing, and all it will take for this movement to swell to the next level is a kent state like moment. Their are to many issues, ranging from the prosecution of the financial terrorists and vultures, (like the 1800 prosecutions we had after the S&L scandal) who have put their lavish lifestyles ahead of the basic needs of millions of citizens, to the open plundering of sovereign nations through military and economic mechanisms. The list of grievances is too long to streamline into a simple issue or catchphrase. The revolution will not be televised, so stop waiting for Anderson Cooper to tell you when to get active and contribute something more tangible than some pathetic defensive diatribe about how others should expesss their frustrations, or how you are the keymaster to what message should be given. The message is the medium, it is the civil disobediance itself that is the message, not to our leadership but to you and me and every other soon to be serf.

[-] 2 points by Crimzon (91) from Arizona City, AZ 2 years ago

how would you like it if you were protesting... and they sent a tactical police force to take you out? Did you watch what happened last night?

Because literally that night in california did not look like American land of the free.... It looked more like Communist China. How many hundreds of police lined up in riot gear strategically blocking intersection after intersection.

Taking some of the Occupy LA into custody whilst others were sort of hurded like cattle in a sense. If you got to witness the sky view... you could definitly see the cattle guard metaphore..

However they remained peaceful and in solidarity to the very end. They stayed vigilant and did not cause violence or harm. Occupy LA was the bigger man in this incident.

Just remember what your saying... because you sir are basically throwing one of our most important rights away

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

But somehow these trolls on here saying people in the Occupy movements don't have a right to protest on public property most likely didn't say that to the Tea Party when it protested on public property.

[-] 1 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

That seems to be argument. Somehow in the Constitution there is an unwritten law about private property being able to trump Civil rights... (Maybe this is why tea baggers want to privatize America.)

I was not aware that the Constitution of the United States operated like a time share,

[-] 3 points by Crimzon (91) from Arizona City, AZ 2 years ago

Wait so because they've decided to camp out and become a round the clock protest. A movement that has not breaks no end? Who will stay indefinitly in the public eye? They are not protesting?

Actually I think its quite effective their was a similar protest back in the great depression who gained ground doing the exact same thing.

So yes they are camping out, yes they gave necessities away like a house, a bed, the luxeries in life to sleep in the winter in a tent to protest for what they believe in.

Somehow to me I think they are doing something worth while! Because how many of us how many of you are willing to give up your car, your bed, your work, to fight for something you truly believe in instead of just accepting it and ignoring a very dire situation.

[-] 3 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

The people who kick Occupiers out of the park are violating American civil rights. The people who are charging Occupiers to be on property that has already been paid for by the tax payers are violating American civil rights.

The idea that private property or grass being destroyed trumps the Constitution is ridiculous. If the city can afford to pay 1500 police overtime to go beat, arrest, and pepper spray Americans exercising their constitutional rights, they can afford to install adequate sanitation devices & services.

[-] 2 points by Crimzon (91) from Arizona City, AZ 2 years ago

Exactly!!!

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[-] 0 points by daveindenver (36) 2 years ago

You know, I've had it with the demeaning things people like you call anyone that disagrees with you. Do you think you should be referred to as a FLEABAGGER. I think that would be wrong, just as you are wrong to refer to people that you disagree with as teabaggers. Grow up.

[-] 2 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

Tea baggers are nothing more than corporate mouthpieces. They chose the name tea bagger. When they found out that the name was related to a homosexual sex act, they got upset and wanted to rename their group ex post facto.

You can call "Occupiers" whatever you want. You already have several names besides Fleabagger. There is; Hippy, Socialist, Commie, Deadbeat, Bum... I am sure there are more. It's doesn't matter. The only thing you can do is cry about trampled grass, and poop in bucket. It's your pathetic cry of failure to control the masses... and the whole world is watching!

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[-] 0 points by daveindenver (36) 2 years ago

You sure do have a log of slogans, just no solutions. If you actually read my comment you would see that I said that demeaning everyone was wrong. I have not called any of you by any of those names.

[-] 1 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

Corporate mouthpieces are not people, they are tools.

[-] 0 points by daveindenver (36) 2 years ago

Again, nice slogan, no substance.

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[-] -1 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Sleeping in a tent is not protesting. Destroying public property, forcing cities to spend millions cleaning up after illegal campgrounds is not protesting. Geez, after three months of cities turning a blind eye to what are clearly illegal assemblies, are you really going to play the "They won't let us protest!" card? You guys lose more credibility every day, and squander the public support you had until you began playing this martyr game. Dumber than a bag of hammers.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

but couldn't strikes and walk outs be equated to "Destroying public property, forcing cities to spend millions cleaning up after illegal campgrounds." Considering that the middle class tax payers are going to pay those bills, wouldn't that be like leveraging them into action to combat the inequality that the one percent have leveled upon them. strikes used to get middle class management to convince the CEO to cut the fat in other places. This action would insure production and offset the loss of revenue caused by strikes. now that the business community dictates policy, it is only fitting that we strike where the power is. and since companies are private property, the logical solution is to be a financial strain on the system, where applicable.

[-] -2 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Trust me, the middle class isn't going to be "leveraged" into the kind of action you're looking for by being forced to foot the bill for cleaning up illegal campsites, especially when camping in public has NOTHING to do with the actual goals of OWS. Instead, they will turn on the movement, which every public opinion poll shows they have already begun to do. Stupid, stupid tactics.

[-] 3 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

Yeah, the middle class would rather not flip the whole bill on their taxes like .002cents to pay for cleaning up a park that Americans are using.

They would much rather pay thousands of dollars for corporations like Boeing or Lockheed Martin to build some tanks or bombs so everyone can be safe from evil poor people from other countries.

[-] -2 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Your post would make sense if camping in a park was going to somehow keep money from being spent on war. It's not. Instead, we're spending money on foreign wars AND cleaning up after slobs. No improvement at all.

[-] 3 points by inlikeflint (42) 2 years ago

I apologize for not dumbing my statement down to your level.

[-] -1 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

You can always tell when someone runs out of ideas in these threads - they get snarky and shift from the issue to personal insults. Thats when I bow out. Thanks for the exchange, flint.

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Dumb it down a little more flint. While you are at it check the original saying which probably didn't include the word "flint". Just saying.

[-] 0 points by xxcONScIENcExx (172) 2 years ago

If peaceful "illegal" campsites get you this fired up, I can't wait to see you address real issues! Tolerance for tents! Intolerance for treason against our democracy!

[-] 3 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago

It's about the grass isn't it, your worried the grass will be damaged. I can understand you know, I like the grass too. Shouldn't cost millions to fix though. Usually if you leave it for a bit it grows back by itself. Grass seed and a bit of water helps if the area is particularly denuded.

[-] 3 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

From today's Wall Street Journal online: "On Wednesday, masked sanitation workers hauled away 25 tons of debris from the lawns around Los Angeles City Hall after police raided the protesters' camp in the middle of the night and arrested more than 300 people. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa said it would cost about $1 million to clean up the site." Looks like Occupy LA did a little more than denude the grass. Btw, Villaraigosa is a clear support of the movement, and unlikely to pad the numbers to make it look bad. And yeah, as an LA resident, I'd like to see the cash-strapped city do something else with that money besides clean up after a bunch of slobs.

[-] 2 points by vitriolck (69) 2 years ago

You read the WSJ. That must be why you're so confused.

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[-] 0 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Nice dodge. The pro-OWS mayor of LA says it will cost over $1 million to clean up after the Occupy LA slobs, carting away their 25 TONS (!) of trash, and you're worried about what newspaper I read. Sad.

[-] 2 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago

Phew, glad to hear the grass is OK. 25 tons of trash? Really? Probably tents, camping equipment and belongings. Seriously you have to question that bill, a million bucks, I mean get digger with a blade and put it in a rubbish truck. FFS!

[-] -1 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Sorry the earlier estimate was wrong. The LA Times, also pro-OWS, ran this story today: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-30-tons-of-debris-left-behind-at-city-hall-tent-city.html

[-] 1 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago

Like I said seems to be mainly belongings. I've got rubbish bags with rubbish in them too on my property, I take them to the dump once a month along with my recycling. I know some peoples shit don't smell unfortunately we can't all be like that.

[-] 0 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Call it whatever you want, it's in a landfill today, so it's trash. Wow, you honestly see no irony when a group that is protesting the misuse of public funds forces public workers to clean up their mess and forces the public to foot the bill. The rest of us see hypocrisy there, but I guess I can't force you to see it if you choose not to. I can guarantee this kind of news will push the OWS opinion poll results even lower, continuing the freefall of the movement's popularity among people it claims to represent.

[-] 2 points by RobertUeberfeldt (44) from Kaikohe, Northland 2 years ago

I think the protesters want their property back, before it gets to the landfill. Yes I see irony and hypocrisy here but no I won't see it your way. The use of the police to clear the camp will bring in more support than those news reports will do to keep people away. Have a nice day Confusedoldguy.

[-] 0 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

We'll see. You have a nice day too, Robert.

[-] 1 points by Confusedoldguy (260) 2 years ago

Couldn't put this under werewolf's reply below because we ran out of reply buttons, so I have to respond here.

"We will force you to misuse our tax dollars until you listen to our complaints about the misuse of tax dollars." Not exactly a rallying cry likely to cause the masses to rise up, werewolf. But feel free to give it a try.

[-] 1 points by warewolff (7) 2 years ago

I completely agree with Robert. The reported 25 tons of trash were most likely the property of the protesters. That being said, maybe when the town spends enough money "cleaning up" after the occupiers, the politicians balancing the books might realize that it would probably be more cost efficient to listen, leading to the passage of new legislation in support of the occupiers. Just a positive outlook on the situation.

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[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Hi Miss - Perhaps we should consider "when" the operative word here. I don't know whether trolls told them to leave or not, but they have evidently left and moved inside - including Washington, DC.

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[+] -5 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

The grass must have been pretty green in City Hall Park for that many cattle to congregate there in the first place. Bet there was water, hay and a salt lick there too.

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[+] -4 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If you want an example of leadership in this movement, go to the main page and click on the meeting schedules and agenda section. I have seen a group of church women organize a potluck for five hundred people in far less time that these leaders take to decide the one item agenda for a 1 1/2 hour meeting.

Karen will do this, Billy will do that, Sue will take this, Tom will take that..................................

[-] 2 points by Socrates469bc (608) from New York, NY 2 years ago

In 2 months, Occupiers have achieved more than Congress has in 12 months. Congress got America's credit downgraded.

[+] -4 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I would have no problem whatsoever with Congress taking a 12 month break right now and only working 3 month in the spring before they had to go home and put their crops in and three in the fall after the harvest. It might actually give them a whole different perspective on what this country is doing.

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[+] -5 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Food from a nearby restaurants is not what people in my area of the country consider a pot luck - though we do allow the occasional bucket of KFC if the person is real busy or not a very good cook themselves.

And YES I do realize that some of the pot luck was cooked in your own kitchens and that you probably bought all that food that was cooked from your $500,000 kitty. Thanks for your contribution to the poor and to yourselves in YOUR area.

[+] -5 points by conservative4change (12) 2 years ago

Spot-on Lok! 'Incommunicable' sums it up best. What the hell exactly are these squatters attempting to actually do?

[-] 2 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Protesters aren't squatters, Einstein.

[-] 1 points by Concerned (455) 2 years ago
  1. To occupy as a squatter.

Definition of a squatter.

The city and the folks who control the Greenway essentially rolled out the welcome mat for the protesters, and now those protesters have been granted squatters’ rights. So what’s to stop them from branching out of the single parcel where until now they’ve been confined, to any of the other leafy, roomy ones nearby? How will the city and the Green- way respond then? http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/editorials/view/2011_1117the_squatters_score/

SEATTLE -- Occupy Wall Street demonstrators in Seattle, Portland and Oakland have taken up a new tactic in their protests against wealth inequality: Squatting in vacant properties. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/11/29/20111129occupys-new-tactic-west-coast-squatting.html#ixzz1fDWEe5td

It appears that you are wrong SwissMiss

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

So, you're getting your definition of squatter from newspapers? Really?

Here's the dictionary definition... of which I trust way more than a newspaper's definition...

squat·ter   [skwot-er] Show IPA noun 1. a person or thing that squats. 2. a person who settles on land or occupies property without title, right, or payment of rent. 3. a person who settles on land under government regulation, in order to acquire title.

Again, people have the RIGHT to protest on PUBLIC property as granted to them by the Constitution. Clearly, the protesters ARE NOT attempting to acquire the title of anyone's private land via their protests, and they aren't trying to permanently settle on someone else's land. They are PROTESTING ON PUBLICLY OWNED PROPERTY TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE.

You are the one who is wrong. And get your definitions from a dictionary next time and not from biased sources.

[-] 2 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago
  1. Taking money out of our government
  2. Repeal of corporate personhood
  3. Reinstatement of Glass-Stegall

Anything beyond that (debt slavery) will be addressed later.

[-] -1 points by korzib9 (80) from Newark, NJ 2 years ago

Are these demands approved by the leading body of OWS or are they just your personal pet peeves?

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

They are what this movement stands for.

[-] -3 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Repeal of corporate personhood.

Please explain to me why the concept of corporate personhood was initiated in the first place?. What would happen, specifically, if you got your wish for 02. Repeal of corporate personhood.

[-] 2 points by Archaevist (15) 2 years ago

Corporations now have all sorts of rights under the law which they didn't have previously. Additionally, they can make unlimited campaign donations without revealing this.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I take it that your only point having to do with corporate personhood is "they can make unlimited campaign donations" as determined by the Supreme Court recently. Is that correct??

If so, I would rather imagine that your problem lies with the Supreme Court more than with the Corporations. Which tree are you barking up, exactly??

[-] 1 points by BTKcongress (149) 2 years ago

if a corp. is not legally recognized as a person, then it cannot legally act (buy stuff/ sell stuff), cannot sue and be sued, cannot issue paychecks, etc... that said they should have very limited influence over politics.

[-] -2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I cannot follow your reasoning except for the fact that "they should have very limited influence over politics".

Specifically, if a corporation is not a "person" what is it. If it is just another business, then it seems that they can legally act, and sue and be sued, can issue paychecks, etc.

Much of the reason that a corporation exists is to issue stock to the public, and limit the liability of the various owners within the corporation. Whether a "person or a business, it seems logical that it would retain the other rights that you posted.

[-] 2 points by aeturnus (231) from Robbinsville, NC 2 years ago

A corporation is simply an organization with an intended aim to maximize profit and survive. Corporations operate with the interests of the person that started it and thus its operations are going to be geared to such personal interests. If it goes public, then it must serve the interests of investors, as well.

Both the person starting the corporation and the investment community tend to employ means that feed the desire to get richer and often at the expense of others. Hierarchical and bureaucratic structures are often employed such that those at the bottom are kept in line with the overall business plan.

The desire of corporate interests is to maximize profit in any way they can. If it means it will cost them less to dump waste into a nearby river, then they are naturally going to fight any bill that would hinder their actions. If it means it will cost them less to weaken their employees' health care, then they are naturally going to fight any efforts by the employees in their desire for a more decent life.

Corporations have an incentive to get rid of as many workers as possible and to pay them as little as possible. Workers have an incentive to make as high of a wage as possible and continue to keep their job safe and secure. This is a class war, and people simply need to decide who's side they are on.

Allowing corporations to usurp the constitution allows them greater power to protect their bottom lines amidst lawsuits. It allows them greater access to resources to protect them from popular demands. It allows for them greater protections in keeping secret their internal operations. Allowing corporate entities to usurp the constitution coupled with confidentialty agreements is a boon for their power and their drive to hide things from the public.

Allowing corporations to usurp the constitution also allows them easier access into the political system, allowing for-profit organizations to donate to political campaigns just like people. It helps increase their presence in Congress and to help maximize their for-profit lobbying potential.

Capitalism is essentially economic tyranny, and I don't believe that the role of the government is enough to combat it. Corporations are naturally going to try to weasel their way into the power structure, because their profits decide their resources that decide their power. We can make all the laws we want, but corporations may even try to buy out security forces against the people to protect their ends. I believe it is impossible to stop them using the voting and electoral system. I believe it is impossible to stop them by writing to our senators. I believe it is impossible to stop them without force.

OWS doesn't need leaders to do what it is doing. It has the 99% Declaration. The only purpose of a leader is to decide the ultimate say on votes, other than the more dangerous purpose of producing a personality cult.

OWS is using an in-your-face, direct-approach approach that is not going to produce changes overnight. Such quick changes form a ridiculous notion in the context of our society, where we are fighting corporate interests with a lot of money and power. I have no problem with targeting specific interests that are using their power to run roughshod on the public while trying to insinuate themselves into the political process.

The reason OWS isn't working in many people's eyes is because the police and the powers-that-be are doing whatever they can to restrain us. Most of the people who don't see us as successful or working are likely those who do not agree with us in the first place, and they would only be frightened if we began to show success.

OWS is doing what it can without portraying itself as extremely criminal. It would be nice if we could simply walk into WalMart and hinder their operations, but that is not only strictly illegal but also will dampen our ability to grow our movement. Unfortunately, it is actions like that that are the key to actually doing something successful. Still, if we want to grow our movement, we have to be careful. If we have lots and lots on our side, it might be a different story.

Nobody said it was going to be easy or quick. America is a very fast-paced culture, and it can run contrary to the kind of work we are doing. Sit back. Relax. And see what happens in five years.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

You are right on. I just love those who defend corporations' greedy ways and actions.

[+] -5 points by korzib9 (80) from Newark, NJ 2 years ago

Well said.

[+] -6 points by freeusa (14) 2 years ago

OWS are braking the laws, go home, you are in for treason if you really know your first amendment. bunch of dumb mule!

[-] 1 points by ImaginaaationG (28) from Canton, OH 2 years ago

Who are you? I mean, who raised someone to be so rude? Why don't you open you're eyes and see the world we live in. Screw laws, they're set in place to keep us in line so that everyone above them can be happy and go about their day. Laws are not always going to be followed, they will change and they usually comes from people breaking them and standing up for what they know is right. Stop being so hateful towards others when they'd give up everything to defend your constitutional rights along with everyone elses. Take a long look in the mirror, realize who you are and what problems your really facing, then go outside and instead of ranting on a comment board to people who don't want to here you're pessimism, do something about the world you live in and make some sort of positive change. If you just keep talking about people that way, then you're no better than the trash at the top of the elite.

[-] 1 points by SwissMiss (2435) from Ann Arbor Charter Township, MI 2 years ago

Treason? Really? You're the one who is ignorant.

Protesting, a right granted by the Constitution, is NOT treason.