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We kick the ass of the ruling class

Greeks Call for Solidarity in Strikes Against Austerity

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 10, 2012, 3:26 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

athens greece

Under pressure from creditors, the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the EU, the Greek government is forcing through unpopular austerity measures. The Greek Prime Minister threatened to remove any government minister who objected to the policies.

Wages are to be cut by more than 20 percent, thousands of civil servants will be laid off, and vital social programs will be severely cut. These laws punish the Greek 99% to repay the debts of the ruling class. The government has sold out sovereignty, the poor, and the working class in the interest of foreign creditors and the demands of the 1%. Bankers continue to make millions and corporations pay fewer taxes. The rest of society, having done nothing wrong, is being punished for the failures of the market.

In response, thousands have taken to the streets and occupied the square in front of Parliament. For the second time this week, Greek workers began a general strike for today and tomorrow. Most transportation has been shut down - limited-service trains will allow protesters to attend demonstrations in Athens. Protesters around Parliament have been attacked with stun grenades and teargas by riot police. Similar protests and strikes are underway across Europe, including in Belgium, where firefighters opposed to cuts in their retirement plan broke through police lines with water hoses.

Students also occupied a school and held General Assemblies for protesters. The occupiers released a statement:

The health structures, the educational spaces, the “welfare” benefits and anything making us productive in the dominant system are now a thing of the past. After squeezing everything out of us, they now throw us straight into hunger and impoverishment.

For years, Greece has been wrecked by the very same policies of austerity also underway in the United States and other countries. From Athens to Oakland, the 99% have awoken - and we refuse to be sold out.

154 Comments

154 Comments


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[-] 6 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Greece and Europe have the same problem we do - Extraction

Or more appropriate - Kleptocracy, alternatively cleptocracy or kleptarchy, (from Greek: κλέπτης - kleptēs, "thief"[1] and κράτος - kratos, "power, rule",[2] hence "rule by thieves") is a form of political and government corruption where the government exists to increase the personal wealth and political power of its officials and the ruling class at the expense of the wider population, often without pretense of honest service. This type of government corruption is often achieved by the embezzlement of state funds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptocracy

[-] 7 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Hear, hear.

Citizens of Western countries now live in societies richer and more prosperous than ever, yet politicians are cutting in welfare programs, and the working class is often struggling to get by. How can this be? It´s very simple: The wealth is being shoved into the pockets of the wealthy, while the working people have to fight over the crumbs, causing cynicism frustration and crime; and at the same time being duped to vote for politicians that mostly favor the interests of the wealthy

sff http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/

[-] 4 points by gcaorg (19) 2 years ago

That money is shoved into the pockets of the wealthy this is the main characteristics of the debt money, almost all money existing are loans where interests are payable to the rich (The owner of the banks). This could be changed easy and fast.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The Greek 99% were denied their promised referendum and are actually now being ritually sacrificed at The High Altar of 'Bankster Ponzi Finance Kaputalism' and are being forced to suffer extreme austerity, deprivations and hardships, purely to maintain for a little while longer - The Illusion of Pan-European and International Banking Solvency.

The reality of 'Innovative Financial Products" ; of Mortgage Backed Securities, Collateralised Debt Obligations, Credit Default Swaps (apparently 'Insurance Contracts on Debt Default' but actually just bets!) and other such "Derivatives" - are fast catching up with 'International High-Finance Capitalism'.

All this Unconscionable BS is based on and "derived" from the buying and selling of Compound Interest Bearing Usurious Debt, which up until now was 'controlled' by the totally artificially induced 'Business Cycle' {the ritualised regular contraction after the expansion of 'the economy' and 'money supply'} - but now the ever 'geometrically progressing' Compound Interest, means that there's Not Enough Money In The World To Pay All The F*ckin' Debt !

The Abstraction that is £MoNeY$ has now abstracted itself into the notional cyber 'hyper-reality' of 'Credit' and 'Debit' via The Tyranny of Electronic Double Entry Bookkeeping, such that All of us Everywhere are ensnared in The Mysterious & Medieval, Mythical Money-Matrix ... We All Need To 'Swallow The Red Pill' ; "Unplug" and Take A Good Look Around !!

For example, The Greeks need to reclaim their Democracy from their own Treacherous, Quisling 0.01%, who have sold their country to The International (in this case mainly Franco-German) Scum Bankster Parasites. They should Immediately Default ; Offer a maximum, notional and honourable 1:10, 10% on their Onerous and 'Odious Debt' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt ) ; Reinstate The Drachma ; Demand A Referendum On These Matters ; NATIONALISE THEIR CENTRAL BANK & currency issue and reclaim their Country, Democracy, Integrity and Sanity !!!

I recommend this clever, insightful and useful individual and his website = http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/ as well as The Excellent Documentary Film, "INSIDE JOB" : http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/ .

In The UK, this year - 2012 'AD', is "The Diamond Jubilee" - 60 years of the now 86 year old Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg Gotha, Battenberg (Windsor) being 'HRH Mrs. Queen' & it's a Olympic and Leap Year too !

Wherever it is that WE are in The World, WE should all urgently start to realise and reclaim concepts of "The Jubilee", which is an Old Testament word for celebrations and festivities arising from the regular, every 49 years, remission of debt and usury !

Back then The Wise Ancient Israelite Elders knew and understood that 'Intergenerational Permanent Debt Bondage' was a very bad thing and to be prevented. Sons could pay their fathers' or even grandfathers' debt but that anything else was Unconscionable !!

SOLIDARITY to The Greeks and to The 99% 'Wage Slaves in Debt Bondage' - Everywhere !!!

Viva Greece & Ζήτω η Ελλάδα ...

Gnothi Seauton ..

1<3 .

[-] 4 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

What a fantastic and informative post shadz66.Our occupy sites in Australia do not keep up with heartbeat of OWS.So I watch this site daily and am impressed at the vibrancy of thought,word and deed.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx mate and hopefully "these shall not be forgotten years" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9eap_cKLP4 !! pax et lux ...

[-] 2 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Well shadz66,Peter Garrett the lead singer of Midnight Oil'in your link'is now Minister for Schools in the Australian Federal Government.He is the Australian Labour Parties sitting member for the electorate of Kingsford Smith.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Thanx 'BH' and please also see :

"onyer m8" !

[-] 2 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

Debt Jubilee! The whole world needs it..Most of the debt in the Greek case and most others is fake anyway..

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

A Giant Hollow Ponzi Pyramid of Compound Interest Generating Usurious Debt and a monumental, mesmeric, 'magical-money-matrix' ; sold to us from birth as a thought suppressing drug that's poisoning and suppressing us all, everywhere !!!

This SH!T Just Can NOT Abide !!

Cheers for the venting cue !

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by mediaauditr (-88) 2 years ago

Good one Sparky! Everyone must read the kleptocracy wiki. It's a sentence by sentence description about the current state of our political system.

[-] 1 points by russman (8) 2 years ago

Why not just concentrate on occupying ? Why get involve with so many other things, so many other countries? We are being evicted from everywhere. This is becoming an evicted rather than an occupying movement. This movement is becoming a disgrace to humanity. There is no fighting spirit or sacrificing spirit. We only allow ourselves to be pushed around, beaten up, pepper-sprayed, tear-gassed, tasered, arrested, etc. Where is the American spirit to stand up and fight for our rights?

[-] 1 points by jdoggma (25) 2 years ago

Don't you think it is a bit silly to demand things with nothing to back you up? The OWS movement is an absolute joke. All this talk about fighting, but no battles. OWS has gotten some attention, like this video - over half a million views http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI - Is this supposed to be some great thing?

[-] 1 points by gcaorg (19) 2 years ago

Fighting and occupying are things from the past.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

so that is the way to go. the way moves forwards by turning back. they got the land by FIGHTING AND OCCUPYING so we will fight and occupy to get it back.

[-] 1 points by gcaorg (19) 2 years ago

"Got the land by Fighting and Occupying" is legally considered as THEFT ! The way moves forward by turning forward using the experience of all the wrongdoings of the past. Using outdated techniques is just wasting your time!

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[-] 1 points by JohnWa (513) 2 years ago

If it were only that simple. Strategy of fighting without violence controls the response to some degree.

If you want to win then strategy is paramount rather than putting your head on the block.

The disgrace to humanity is the inequity dealt out in every way not only here but across the globe. It is a global issue and support for other protest is effective as the ideas are universal.

[-] 2 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

russman,do you not know what happened to Ghandi`s followers and the peaceful protestations they did.Democracy has been hijacked by the bankers,it will be returned via the voting booth. The odds are 99%to!% in favour of a complete whitewash of the Republican party. This is the Party that started this nightmare when they got their yes man Reagan to do their bidding,and the rest so to speak is history.

[-] 4 points by TheirLyingPropaganda (54) 2 years ago

Any economist with a working brain, and not driven by ideology, will tell you that a diet of complete, if not severe austerity without providing for economic development, will produce a depression.

[-] 0 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

true, and we need austerity here in the US, with 16T in debt. just sayin'. it's either massive inflation from currency debasement (the same as a tax when gas costs $8p.g.) or huge tax raises combined with big cutbacks or maybe just plain default. the only thing we have going is that the FED owns alot of debt and can credit it back to treasury.

[-] 2 points by TheirLyingPropaganda (54) 2 years ago

fact: Clinton took a severe deficit and turned it into a surplus in a few years. He did it w/ a combination of tax increases on the rich and some cuts.

fact: GWB took that surplus and, w/ the help of his 1 Percenter sponsoring congress turned it into a whopping Deficit and Recession.

fact: massive inflation hasn't occurred nor is there any indication that it will except in the minds of the idiologs.

fact: there are a lot of 1 Percenters who'd rather spend their billions on lobbyists than taxes, screwing the nation, increasing their wealth and power.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

the professional school i graduated from in 1999, now costs a whopping 2.5 times what it did back then. gas cost $0.79-0.89 per (it's now 4 times that). my house, that was quite, nice cost $85k in 1999 and i sold it for $145k in 2005 (75% increase) and rented. if that isn't inflation, call me crazy... the stats. lie and are poor indicators. b/c what you have with the above are: 1) peoples' 2 largest purchases, and 2) peoples' frequent purchases increasing tremendously.... that IS inflation, and i'd call it massive... yet did greenspan raise rates to temper the dramatic increases? no,,, he's using falsified stats and has admitted his mistakes. true bush was a clown, and clinton did a nice job with finances. right now inflation is not as bad because we really have stagflation (inflation against a deflationary/contracting economic period).

[-] 3 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 2 years ago

Greek Film Shows Way Out of Debt Bind

"Debtocracy" a 75-minute documentary made for $15K has inflamed popular resistance in Greece by casting the debt crisis in a new light. Watch the full length with subtitles - click link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKpxPo-lInk

Seen on the Internet by over a million Greeks, the film convincingly argues that the debt is a neo-liberal ("Economic Hitman") scam and there are strong precedents for repudiating it.

The brainchild of Costas Lapavitsas, an economist and professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, the film introduces the concept of "odious debt" which was used in 2003 by the United States to renounce Saddam Hussein's $120 B debt to Russia and France.

Defined by Russian economist Alexander Sacks in the 1920's, "odious debt" is incurred by a despotic power, "not for the needs or in the interest of the State, but to strengthen its despotic regime, to repress the population that fights against it, etc., this debt is odious for the population of all the State."

He went on. "This debt is not an obligation for the nation; it is a regime's debt." Sack called it "a personal debt of the power that has incurred it." When this power falls, that debt "consequently . . . falls with the fall of this power."

Sack also considered a debt odious when, "the loans incurred by members of the government or by persons or groups associated with the government to serve interests manifestly personal - interests that are unrelated to the interests of the State." A bribe is an example of a manifestly personal interest.

Now, in order for a debt to be deemed "odious," Sack said that the lender must also be aware that the loan is "contrary to the interests of the nation."

In this case, Professor Sack said, "the creditors have committed a hostile act" against the people. They can't therefore expect that a nation freed from a despotic power will assume the 'odious' debts, which he called "personal debts of that power."

These criteria apply to Greece.

http://www.henrymakow.com/greekfilmmakescase.html

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Absolutely excellent & essential post & link + alternative link to "Debtocracy" = http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/debtocracy/ & thanx 'PC' ;-) ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 2 years ago

thank you, and keep up the good work shadz66 . . .

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Cheers m8 & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDLsPwrOOhA ;-) pax et lux ...

[-] 2 points by PublicCurrency (1387) 2 years ago

YEAH ! we need a break from the old routine (maybe 300 years or so of it) cheers !

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

LoL & so 'all' that's left to do is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac2EjcaFM2I !!

[-] 3 points by HitGirl (2263) 2 years ago

You can't blame people for wanting an honest government that looks out for their interests. Let's hope the Greek government gets a clue and starts representing the Greek people.

[-] 3 points by SolidSnake (6) 2 years ago

Someone should give them the idea to take over the factories and run them themselves; that idea terrified owners in the 1930s and owners had to back off. The American left knows this. The Greek left should know about this tactic too!

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

What factories? - the EU "free trade" sent the Greek factories the way of the Dodo. This is the crux of the problem. The proper solution is a default - it will be a painful end of the crisis but that's better than pain without end.

[-] 1 points by huevosrancheros (21) 2 years ago

They do. The Communists and the labor unions inspired by them are leading the struggle. Taking over factories is an old tactic that goes way back when. Lenin's Bolsheviks perfected it in Revolutionary Russia. And today it's a well known socialist tactic.

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[-] 3 points by cuphook (3) 2 years ago

"I wish no harm to any human being, but I, as one man, am going to exercise my freedom of speech. No human being on the face of the earth, no government is going to take from me my right to speak, my right to protest against wrong, my right to do everything that is for the benefit of mankind. I am not here, then, as the accused; I am here as the accuser of capitalism dripping with blood from head to foot."

John MacLean at his trial in 1918. It's still relevant today and I hope that the people of Greece speak up against the capitalist demands on their commonweal. In fact shout about it till the whole world can hear.

[-] 3 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Good news. The website of omnipresent and ominpotent CIA has been closed down by the 99 %. Try to open their website and enjoy the new victory of the 99 % against the 1 % and their CIA.

[-] 3 points by TheIt (3) 2 years ago

Let's look at it symbolically. Greece is the mother of western civilization, and her children are now throwing her out on the street. GO BACK TO YOUR ROOTS, EUROPE! Don't lose your soul to save the Euro!

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (513) 2 years ago

Yes the ancient city state of Athens had high culture and was reputed to be the birthplace of modern democracy - but only for the rich classes, Their much larger slave class had no such luxury but lived in servitude.

We have progressed in our ideas since but not perhaps in the practice of holding bankers from another tradition from strangling our well being. The ideology and practice of the bankers needs resounding defeat forever more. Fleas. lice and bankers are below vermin but all parasites.

[-] 2 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

The women retired at 50, the men retired at 55, tax avoidance was a national sport and all of it was on borrowed money, what the hell did they expect to happen?

The Greeks had a party ever since joining the EU and now the bill is due, where do they expect the free money to come from?

[-] 1 points by jonkk (3) 2 years ago

this is absolutely nonsense , you could retired at 55 if you had worked continuus for 37 years , is this a party? we are working more than 12 hours a day with a fear to be unemployed , many people are homeless children are starving in schools . shame on you , if you dont want to help us , it is fine , but dont lie

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[-] 0 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

What lie did I tell?

[-] 1 points by jonkk (3) 2 years ago

sometimes telling partial truth , is worse than lie , ever visit my country? what you know about our hospitals ? our schools ? our roads? how can an employe avoid tax? as for the party you mentioned it is yours opinion , only the prices made party after the entrance to eurozone

[-] 0 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

What is your solution? Borrow more money? From who? Default on your current debt? You will never be able to borrow again and you have no money to pay bills without borrowing.

What does the average rioter in the street think is the solution?

[-] 2 points by Informpub (2) 2 years ago

What is going on in Greece is a classic example of how powerful bankers bankrupt people, companies, and countries. The process is straightforward but not many people catch on and fewer know how to counter it. Consider the following process:

Even back in Wild West days, the big bad Bankers (and the Very Rich) were known to legally steal a lot of properties with a tried and true formula: 1. Loan money to a loanee (farmer, rancher, miner) who has marginal ability to pay it back but whose property is worth much more than the loan. 2. Wait for a natural event to occur whereby the loanee is unable to temporarily pay on the loan. If the wait is too long then the Banker can take actions to speed up the process (start rumors, expensive legal action, shut off water or access, steal cattle, etc.). 3. Raise the interest rate to cover the "uncertainties" 4. Loanee eventually can't pay the high interest rate and becomes bankrupt -- Banker takes over the property at pennies on the dollar.

In more recent times, after they owned most of the land, this tried and true formula has been applied routinely by big bad Bankers (and the Very Rich) to legally steal the assets of businesses and corporations: 1. Make big loans to the businesses and corporations at low interest rates -- the lower the better since that way the bank can loan them more money. This is even easier if the banks have made sure that the CEO and/or Board of Directors is part of their close group of trusted quasi employees. 2. Wait for an economic downturn or recession and the loanees have great difficulty in keeping up the loan payments or getting new financing. If the wait is too long then the Banker can take actions to speed up the process (create a bubble and burst it, get the Federal Reserve to put out too much or too little money supply, get Congress to pass new laws which help some companies but penalize the ones you want, start rumors, create labor problems, make bad internal business decisions, etc.). 3. Raise the interest rate to cover the "uncertainties" 4. Loanee eventually can't pay the high interest rate and becomes bankrupt -- Banker bids on and takes over much of the property at pennies on the dollar (usually through other corporations they own or control so as not to be too obvious).

Now that the big bad Bankers (and the Very Rich) own most of the large businesses and corporations, they are moving on to where they want to legally steal and own whole Countries. The process is the same tried and true formula that they have used so successfully in the past: 1. Make big loans to the Government of the target Country at low interest rates -- the lower the better since that way the bank can loan them more money. This is even easier if the banks have made sure that the President and members of Congress are under their control (Campaign Contributions, Lobbyists, Bribery, Favors, Personal Pressure, etc.). 2. Wait for an economic downturn or recession and the Countries have great difficulty in keeping up the loan payments or getting new financing. If the wait is too long then the Banker can take actions to speed up the process (create a bubble and burst it, get the World Banks to put out too much or too little money supply, create labor problems, make bad internal financial and monetary decisions, etc.). Of special use with Countries is the use of a Media Blitz (easy to do since the Very Rich control most of the Media), which accuses the Country of corruption, bad governance, excessive spending, hiding liabilities, excessive life styles, and similar degrading habits. 3. Raise the interest rate to cover the "uncertainties" 4. The target country eventually can't pay the high interest rate so the IMF, World Bank, and other International Bankers loan the country more money so they can pay the interest on their debt. As a condition for these loans, austerity measures are imposed on the country, which further degrades their economy and together with the increased debt makes it even harder for them to pay.
5. As the economy continues to deteriorate, interest rates are raised again and the Country is asked to sell off its National Assets (Privatization) and anything else it owns. When the big bad Banks (and the Very Rich -- usually through corporations they own or control so as not to be too obvious) have gained ownership of most of the National and Private Assets (at pennies on the dollar}, they forgive part of the debt (equivalent to declaring bankruptcy) and let the Country (still under a pile of debt and in their full control) continue to act as their personal Cash Cow -- essentially owning the Country.

This is a tried and true formula to take control of a country without a war and steal its wealth. It can be done to one country and then another -- very few seem to catch on or be able to stop or counter the process. Of course the best defense is not to go into debt in the first place. But after the debt is established, and the interest rates rise to unacceptable levels, the process can be aborted by simply declaring national bankruptcy and canceling or reducing the debt and the interest rates -- the sooner the better. This is very difficult to do because when a Country is targeted for fleecing and subjugation, one of the preparations is to corrupt, co-opt, and brainwash as many government officials as possible. On their own, the government officials will usually not take the appropriate actions to defend their country. Successful defense frequently seems to require a rising up by the general population through rioting and other major disruptions and a change of government.

Years ago this process was carried out against 3rd world countries. But in the last few years it has been routinely used against a number of developed Countries, including Argentina, Latvia, Iceland, Ireland, and Greece. The process is well underway for Portugal, Spain, and Italy.

The economy in Argentina was deteriorating badly for 5 to 10 years until rioting took place in 2001 and the government was replaced. They then cancelled and reduced their debt and interest rates and their economy is now recovering nicely. The riots in Greece may have saved their economy, providing they persist in demanding the same debt reduction and lower interest rates.

Other countries should take heed and defend themselves as early as possible.

Is the United States also a target? If so, where are we in the process?

[-] 1 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

The crooks are hesitating - they are afraid to push the button. Nice post by the way.

IMHO they are afraid and should be. This is not the 1800s or even 1930s. The dynamics in the world are much different then past periods.

I would say they pushed too far and one way or another this economic cow is dead. Its just a question of how ugly things will get before they accept this.

Most folks just dont look simply enough at the problem, broadly speaking.

Around the world our bureaucrats meet too deal with problems. But lets face it all these economic problems are not natural. They are designed, if not on purpose then out of total negligence.

Our economics and the problems with the economics are to be frank, man made problems - not an act of God, not magic.-

People everywhere should be pissed that 50000 bureaucrats worldwide cant solve a man made problem.

Extremely shameful that people create something; what they create makes very predictable problems. But it seems, the highly educated cant get to grips with the problems they designed.

Absolutely brilliant example of supreme stupidity.

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Yup Informpub,you`ve nutshelled it.In answer to your question at the end,Almost there,16 trillion debt and the banks already own it all.

[-] 2 points by ruttoca (2) 2 years ago

It has been too long since the people have been stepped on by the tyranny and it is time for us, the people, to rise up and say 'No' to all the wrongs that have been done to us. Thank you, all of you, there is still hope in the darkest of hours and the future is ours to make.

[-] 2 points by marga (82) 2 years ago

Its only a matter of time before it all comes falling down. People need to learn how they have wittingly enslaved themselves and how to get out of it. No matter how bad the siruation, there is always a way out. I know from experience. I mangaed to escape the Iron Curtain when I turned 17 y/o. I'm a strong believer in can't never could do nothing. What the mind can conceive, man can achieve. We just need to pull the reigns on our government and let hem know we are still in charge and wont stand for any more B.S.

[-] 2 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

Richard Seymour on the situation in Greece:

"...the EU's rulers have probably over-played their hand by acting in such a provocative way. The disintegration of the government, the warning noises from the police, the further shift to the left, and the signs of industrial escalation, are indicative that they may have gone too far."

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2012/02/scenes-from-class-struggle-in-greece.html

[-] 2 points by GarciaLorca (53) 2 years ago

Germany's new role in Europe:

"Ordoliberalism is what Angela Merkel wants for the Eurozone as a whole: rigid rules and legal frameworks beyond the reach of democratic decision-making."

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/jan-werner-muller/what-do-germans-think-about-when-they-think-about-europe

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

And countries about to enter the EU should back out and run as fast as their legs can carry them.It truly does show that the British were right in their non entry.But they`re Kleptocratic as well.

[-] 2 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

Stathis Kouvelakis:

"Greece’s current situation is unlike any we have seen before in postwar Western Europe. In this respect, Greeks may find themselves once more at the forefront of historical developments. In 1821, they were the first continental country to win national independence; by saying ‘No’ in 1940, they were the precursors of the battle against fascism. Their uprising against the military dictatorship in the early 1970s inspired other peoples in Southern Europe and Latin America suffering similar oppressions. Is it conceivable that Greece will once again sound the tocsin? The country’s economic situation, already dire, is steadily worsening. Under these conditions, it seems unthinkable that a government gearing up to administrate a new dose of austerity to an already debilitated population will have an easy run."

http://newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2924

[-] 2 points by Risp (24) 2 years ago

The Euro has a huge construction failure. European politicians are telling that Greece is having budget problems because the Greek suffer from a lack of discipline. This is not totally true. They are making a smoke screen, so people will not see the real problem. And this problem is from the beginning of the European Euro. The real problem is import versus export ratio.

Greece, like all other South European countries (Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal) have a poor economic system. Not much heavy factories and their export is mainly agricultural products. They only could compete in the world by devaluating their Greek Drachme. By bringing down the value of their currency they made import from other countries more expensive and made their own export more cheap. This is how those countries, like most poor countries do, to balance their trade.

When the Euro was introduced in 1999, South European countries had no possibilities anymore to bring down their currency. So they could not balance their import – export ratings anymore and the import surplus went up and up. Sins the beginning of the Euro in 1999 you see the import surplus in Greece growing fast and with this the unemployment went up. In countries as Germany and the Netherlands happened the opposite: export surplus rised and with this the unemployment in Germany went down.

Between 1999 (the start of the Euro) and 2007 the import surplus in Greece went up, from 5,4 % to 9,7 %. Spain from 2,9 % to 9,8 %. Portugal from 8,5 % to 9,2 %. Italy had in 1999 a export surplus and in 2007 a import surplus of 2,3 %. France is not doing fine with a export surplus in 1999 to a import surplus of 1,6 in 2007. Germany, in contrast with the Southern European countries, had in 1999 a small import surplus and in 2007 a huge export surplus of 5,4 %.

Showing you how profitable the Euro was for Germany and the losses of South European countries.

Because Greece couldn’t bring down the value of their currency to compete economically, they had to lend money to fill up their losses. And it was for a huge part Germany who lended Greece the money. German banks where making money of the Greek import surplus.

Because the Greek had the Euro, a strong high value coin, they couldn’t compete anymore with cheap production countries like China. Germany had a very aggressive expansion export politics, lowering the payment of their own workers. South European countries where stuck between the labour intensive jobs in China and the low wages in the high productive West European industry (Germany).

Because the Chinese could deliver products cheaper, Germany and other European countries started to buy Chinese products instead of South European products. Germany and France imported in 1990, 4,4 % textile in Portugal and 5 % from China. In 2011 only 2,4 % is imported from Portugal and 27 % from China. The Portuguese export of Textile and cork dropt down from 43 % in 1990 to 18 % in 2008.

The reason of the Greece problems is because of a structural failure of the Euro. Many economists have warned European politicians before the Euro was introduced. But European politicians ignored this totally. And the problems has all to do with German aggressive export expansion politics.

Now Germany is afraid to take losses on Greece because they have lend Greece money to fill up the Greece import surplus. And at this moment they are sucking Greece economics totally empty. Destroying Greece economics.

Half a year ago, Germany obliged Greece to buy German military weapons. They blackmailed Greece to buy those weapons or Germany would vote against more loans to Greece. Telling Greece to cut down on pensions and benefits for the unemployed. German did not care, as long the Greece buyed those German military weaponry. Giving you some insight in the European solidarity.

[-] 1 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

Nice post -- Germany is always talking about how the Euro would bring Europe peace and security - Look at that peace and security.(laugh)

Did the Europeans not ask themselves -countries around the world with different currencies live next to one another without killing each other - why not Europe?

The euro was a scam but then again all money systems are a scam.

Enjoy German style peace and economic security; Europe. If this German abomination causes war - Germany will only be seen in the history books - never again will be never again.

The Germans may know how to make things and a thing or two about efficiency but they dont know the first thing about peace or happiness.

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

Greece scrambled to join the Euro in 1999 and the exchange rate was based upon the EMS, formulated 20 years before the actual rate fixation against the Euro.

wikipedia: The European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) was a system introduced by the European Community in March 1979, as part of the European Monetary System (EMS), to reduce exchange rate variability and achieve monetary stability in Europe, in preparation for Economic and Monetary Union and the introduction of a single currency, the euro, which took place on 1 January 1999. After the adoption of the euro, policy changed to linking currencies of countries outside the Eurozone to the euro (having the common currency as a central point). The goal was to improve stability of those currencies, as well as to gain an evaluation mechanism for potential Eurozone members. This mechanism is known as ERM2.

You do not mention the benefits of a strong and stable currency that Greece had for 10 years and its inability to leverage this benefit as other countries did. Perhaps Greece should have understood the ramifications of joining the Euro based upon its own strengths and capabilities before joining the Euro, but this is all hindsight and now everyone has to move forward.

Another point with regards to lowering the wages in Germany, are you saying the wages in Germany were less than those offered in Greece and while Germany maintained a high social system.

It is not only Germany and France that bought goods from China, the whole world did, including Greece, Italy, Ireland and Portugal.

Finally with regards to Greece being forced to buy German military weapons (I suppose this is the NATO obligation but that is another ball game), while we do not agree with blackmail, Greece would have been obliged to buy these in any case; it would be a pity if Greece had to pay more for German weapons than if it were required to purchase them elsewhere but we do live in a world of real-politiek.

I am just trying to put the picture in perspective, since only then can we build a sustainable and socially just future for all.

[-] 1 points by jonkk (3) 2 years ago

never asked if we want euro , they decided for us

[-] 1 points by Noah123 (2) 2 years ago

The real problem for the Greeks and other South European countries is that they need to devaluate their money once in a while. This is how they control/balance import and export rates. By bringing down the value of their currency, they make their products cheaper and therefore more interesting for other countries to buy Greek products. So your export rates will go up and your import rates will go down. With the Euro the Greek where not able to do this anymore, so their import rates only went up and up. Greece had to loan money to fill up the financial gab. Greece came in a never ending circle of high import rates and low export rates, decreasing employment numbers and lending money to balance import and export. Greece had to loan money to fill up the losses of high rising import ratings and low export ratings. Look at the import and export figures: Greece had a import surplus of 5,4 in 1999 and this went up to 9,7 in 2007. Germany went from a small import surplus in 1999 to a huge export surplus of 5,4 in 2007. This shows that the Euro was profitable for Germany but not for Greece. Where money and jobs where lost in Greece, Germany gained money and jobs.

You would expect that the country who has a huge export rating, support the country with the high import ratings. But by European law, European countries where forbidden to “give” each other money to fill up gabs. It was forbidden by law to balance European import and export rates. Giving Greece no choice than to loan money. This was the construction failure of the Euro. It was just a matter of time this would collapse. Europe shared the same coin, but in economics it was every country for itself. This is what you see in solving the Euro problem. They want to be Europeans, but everybody is thinking nationalistic and therefore you have to question the real European feeling.

When the problems became really bad and nobody wanted to loan Greece anymore money, Germany and Dutch politicians guaranteed the Greek loans. Be course of the German and Dutch guarantee, banks started to loan Greece more money, thinking it was a safe loan. Lending Greece far to much, Greece came in the situation that they had to loan more, to pay of the interest of the existing loans. Be course banks (mainly from Germany and France) dont want to take losses, they are squeezing out the Greek like a sponge. Off course a stable currency is important. The Greek Drachme was not a very unstable currency. And the Euro, at this moment, is very unstable. A strong currency can give a problem export, making your products more expensive for other countries. The Greek could compete with China with their “cheap” Drachme, they could not do so anymore with the “expensive” Euro. Northern European countries started to buy products in China and not anymore in Southern European countries, killing Southern European products. So the export of Southern European countries went down explosively. Its true that everybody is buying from China, but when you have the same currency and you have to depend on each other economically as in Europe, this is the most foolish thing you can do. It looks cheaper in the beginning, but on the end you will pay for the consequences. You are destroying your own economics on the end.

The way Germany forced Greece to buy German military weapons shows the aggressive German export politics. Greece is now broke and they are forced to buy weapons. Selling this weapons is more important to Germany than the Greek pensions and welfare. Showing the European solidarity… NOT ! And with this mentality Europe wants to share the same currency… NOT ! By the way, Greece has no money to pay the petrol for this German tanks and helicopters, nor do they have the money to maintain this weaponry. It will just rot somewhere.

It is very important that people know the construction failures of the Euro. European politicians are making the Greek as total scapegoat. Blaming the Greek for everything so they can avoid their own failures and responsibilities. Blame the Greek, so nobody will criticize the role of European politics and the role of banks. The money to the Greek is not (!) going to the Greek but it is all going into banks. The financial help for Greece is not (!) designed to help the Greek but is to help (France and German) banks. The money is send to a Greek account, makes one’s round the Acropolis and goes strait into the pockets of banks. It is not (!) supporting Greek economy in any way.

Living in the Netherlands I can tell you that European politicians are more and more preparing to kick the Greek out of the Euro. I would take this very serious. The Greek people are really suffering now, a lot of people lost their pensions, someone was so desperate he lighted up himself, some parents are putting their children to adoption be course they can not afford their children anymore. Greek people are desperate, scared like shit, loosing everything. Please understand the construction failure of the Euro. Don’t make the Greek people as absolute scapegoat and see the role of German, Dutch, France, European politicians and banks. Don’t let those European Politicians and banks get away with this !!!

Ps: I'm Risp, I dont know why, but I could not log in.

[-] 2 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

This is German domination of Greece 2.0. Germany made out very well with the Euro awlling to the less developed nations of Europe. Now they insist that the people of Greece pay the piper for the dancing they did.

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

No, it's not the governments of various countries that are to be scapegoated here. Again, it's corruption at the behest of the very wealthy, who control everything a lot more that we think.

Get rid of corruption wherever it flourishes.

[+] -5 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Germany has made out well because they are a smart and innovative people. They have a large, expanding, and successful economy and are pissed off at the lazy ass Greeks that they need a bailout. To build a society of social programs and entitlements by borrowing massive amounts of money and ransoming a nations future can only end in a bad way. Western civilization is on the verge of a self inflicted collapse.

[-] 6 points by Coroba (5) 2 years ago

Your comment shows that you are either ignorant or a german. Germany since world war 2 (yes, the one they caused and the one they left all European countries in ruins, including Greece ) received a MASSIVE economic bailout fund from the US itself in order to rebuilt its economy. The same time Germany refuses to pay back Greece reparation money they owe for world war 2 victims. Since the crisis began, Germany has profited from the Greek crisis about 50 billion euros a year, since 20% οf it's exports is towards Greece.As for lazy, go read recent studies that showed that the Germans work less hours than anyone in Europe and Greeks the most hours per week for less money. Go read all that before you make ignorant comments like that.

[-] 1 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

You've explained it well. thanks.

[-] -3 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Germans are efficient, Greeks aren't.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21297) 2 years ago

Kirby, the Greeks ARE the cradle of Western civilization. And, ebbs and flows happen to all civilizations.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

I know, you're right. I just don't see how all of these countries, including us, can borrow so much money to pay for our wants. If we ran our households this way beautiful, our asses would be in the slammer.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21297) 2 years ago

I don't have a great grasp on what is going on in Europe either, but nucleus posted a good video that is worth watching. It explains it really well:

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2012/01/30/punk-economics

[-] 1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Thanks bw, I'll check. It out.

[-] 2 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

Adopting the Euro secured Germany dominance.

The so called PIG countries and a few others had a much lower value currency when the Euro was forced upon Europeans. By forcing the low value currencies to adopt the higher value Euro - Germany all but succeeded in eliminating any competition from most of Europe for large parts of manufacturing; while increasing the European customer base that could pay for those German made goods.

In particular, those countries that did not industrialize prior to the euro adoption. basically kissed their future competitiveness good bye.

We don't have enough business in the world for all of Europe to be like Germany - so the wealthy stay wealthy(Germany, France) by keeping the poor;poor.(the pigs and a few others - thats how it works).

Look, if your a business in Germany would you bother moving your business to Spain if the financial benefits are just not there? NO

If however you are manufacturing in Germany and Spain, Italy or Portugal have a much lower value currency - The move would be a cash bonanza for a company (not goof for Germany) - why do you think the Chinese have succeeded at taking jobs from America?

If the Euro was not brought in you would have seen what took place between America and China - Take place in many European countries.

Do you think the Germans are so keen on the Euro out of the kindness of their hearts? NO - They owe their success and wealth to the Euro. If the Euro collapsed - lower value currencies would hit Germany hard. less customers and more competition for manufacturing.

They will do anything to keep the Euro because that keeps the PIGS; PIGS and the Germans wealthy.

Its easy to call people lazy when the lazy have a giant boot pressed to the neck and cant move.

Watch how successful Greece would become if they ditched the Euro. The Germans dont want this it would give the other poor nations Ideas and they would jump from the Euro ship and fast - Germany's easy ride would end -very quickly.

So in a nutshell if the euro collapses and Europe descends into BS - blame the Germans Again.

Social entitlements you think made them broke. America has spent more on military. -Spend your money on military, social benefits or a pile of manure - seems all roads lead to debt. Ever crossed your mind why this is? It clearly is not what you think it is. So back to the drawing board with that one.

Think a little beyond the headlines and apply some thought; they don't lie to you but they do take advantage of ignorance.

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

I have re-read and re-thought the post and have the following remarks:

First we need to go back to 1999 when members of the EU were applying to adopt the Euro or not,

1) “…when the Euro was forced upon Europeans…”the first fallacy of the post is that when the Euro was introduced, many countries most were scrambling to join the Euro

2) To say the PIG countries (Portugal Ireland Greece) had a much lower value currency is quite incorrect. Before the introduction of the Euro there was the EMS (Exchange Rate Mechanism) and this together with the exchange rates prior to the introduction of the Euro served as the basis of the valuation of the currency (the Greek Drachma, the German Mark, the Irish Pound etc) ; all the European countries benefitted from this, especially the “southern European “ countries who now had a stronger currency, more stable and all countries could buy more, borrow at a lower interest rate. So for 10+ years all the Euro countries benefitted from this stable and strong currency but some used this more beneficially than others.

3) Given that the cost of living read wages are lower in the Southern European countries as compared to the rest of Europe, given everything being equal corporations could actually have shifted business to these countries, but did not since besides wages, skills and cultural aspects play a major part of any business. To cast aspersions on Germany on this point is almost like being a Cyclops.

4) All the European countries financially benefitted from this very large European market and some more than others; but the largest benefit was peace, cooperation, ease of movement of people and goods and prosperity at least until the artificial financial crisis of 2008.

5) “Watch how successful Greece would become if they ditched the Euro…” no correct-minded Greek would agree with this, the need to stay within the Euro has united all the political parties within Greece since if Greece were to ditch the Euro it would be an economic, social and political suicide.

What I would agree with is the back to the drawing board, in reviewing how the Euro can be better managed, not because it needs to be saved but because it has been good for Europe as a whole.

The rest of what needs to be said has been posted earlier, but I am appending that to this post, since it logically belongs here.

So back to the drawing board with regards to Monetary Economics: 1) how can one have a common fiscal union without common fiscal policy and common fiscal governance?

2) why do governments via Central Banks need to borrow money to pay for running of their country, why cannot they print their own money, managed by a citizens' supervised board.

Social Economics 1) How can one maintain peace and social justice within this economic realm

In the background of this, investigate the major 5-6 godzilla financial institutions and major Central Banks who manipulate the money and its supply around the world without any corresponding supervision or legislation, whatsoever.

Oh dear, the smell of financial and social putrefaction sweeps the earth with concentrations in these financial institutions, central banks and those with “brilliance” who control them.

Political Economics: 1) How can we enforce legislation via democratic principles or otherwise to counter this financial dominance, when those with the authority to do so are deep in the pockets of these godzillas? Let us not be divided by those who will use nationalistic sentiments of one against the other, of distractions of war provocations, of distractions of global events and showbiz/royalty inanities

Let us leverage the will of the people, of all the people, to keep united in peace, while fighting these godzillas against humanity.

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

The last statement is good! it brings us back to a couple of fundamental questions

Monetary Economics: 1) how can one have a common fiscal union without common fiscal policy and common fiscal governance?

2) why do governments via Central Banks need to borrow money to pay for running of their country, why cannot they print their own money, managed by a citizens' supervised board.

Social Economics 1) How can one maintain peace and social justice within this economic realm

In the background of this, investigate the major 5-6 godzilla financial institutions and major Central Banks who manipulate the money and its supply around the world without any corresponding supervision or legislation, whatsoever.

Oh dear, the smell of financial and social putrefaction sweeps the earth with concentrations in these financial institutions, central banks and those with “brilliance” who control them.

Political Economics: 1) How can we enforce legislation via democratic principles or otherwise to counter this financial dominance, when those with the authority to do so are deep in the pockets of these godzillas?

Let us not be divided by those who will use nationalistic sentiments of one against the other, of distractions of war provocations, of distractions of global events and showbiz/royalty inanities

Let us leverage the will of the people, of all the people, to keep united in peace, while fighting these godzillas against humanity.

[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Sorry for being an ignoramus. Will the euro survive? Are the countries using bound legally to not ditch it, and go back to the Marc, or drachma or whatever the case may be?

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by Hoplite (3) 2 years ago

Right...so you are a fat idiot American? I love stereotypes...Get real..They work hard. Did Germany ever repay the damages for WW2? Or the loan that the Greek government had to take under gun point of the Nazis? Or did they ever return the gold from the treasury? They will fight for their lifes once more. Sooner or later they will return. They are around for 3000 years...

[-] 2 points by Hoplite (3) 2 years ago

Fat idiot American was just an example of stereotypes. No offense.

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Interesting concept. Fix their economy by ensuring nobody has the money to create an increase in demand. That math must be way over my head.

[-] 7 points by ShayToronto (9) from Toronto, ON 2 years ago

These measures are not designed to fix the economy. They are to discipline workers by lowering wages, remove/diminish social benefits that have been fought for, and to pay the debts of the financial/global elites. None of what is proposed to the Greek people is for their benefit or the economic & social health of their nation.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Sh@yT : Absolutely Excellent Point !!!

The painful austerities of Greek Society and Economy are being forced through as tho' there is No Greek Govt. mainly in order to assuage The German Banksters' and Politicians' desire for The Appearance of a pound of flesh and in order to try to scare The Pan European 99% !!

The erstwhile "Celtic Tiger" and the 'Fightin' Irish' have turned into sheep who won't even bleat on the way to the abattoir and All MSM Everywhere wants us all to simply forget about The Icelanders and Their Gumption In Trying To Retake Their Economy, Politics and Society !

You could NOT make This SH!T Up ... even IF you tried ... :-(

Nice to have some more Canadians On The Team ...

multum in parvo ..

pax et lux .

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Sad about Ireland, really sad. I think they've just come to see suffering as their lot in life. Maybe it's a Catholic thing.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

"Maybe its" a Propagandised, Mind-Managed and Completely Politically Emasculated "thing" because IF it is ... to Hell with the Catholicism, THAT is what the Irish should be feeling 'Guilty' about !!!

verum ex absurdo...

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

I am doing a copy and paste of some relevant posts under the same topic, since they are for some reason minimized and easily overlooked.

[-] 2 points by socialsynergy (29) 15 hours ago Adopting the Euro secured Germany dominance. The so called PIG countries and a few others had a much lower value currency when the Euro was forced upon Europeans. By forcing the low value currencies to adopt the higher value Euro - Germany all but succeeded in eliminating any competition from most of Europe for large parts of manufacturing; while increasing the European customer base that could pay for those German made goods. In particular, those countries that did not industrialize prior to the euro adoption. basically kissed their future competitiveness good bye. We don't have enough business in the world for all of Europe to be like Germany - so the wealthy stay wealthy(Germany, France) by keeping the poor;poor.(the pigs and a few others - thats how it works). Look, if your a business in Germany would you bother moving your business to Spain if the financial benefits are just not there? NO If however you are manufacturing in Germany and Spain, Italy or Portugal have a much lower value currency - The move would be a cash bonanza for a company (not goof for Germany) - why do you think the Chinese have succeeded at taking jobs from America? If the Euro was not brought in you would have seen what took place between America and China - Take place in many European countries. Do you think the Germans are so keen on the Euro out of the kindness of their hearts? NO - They owe their success and wealth to the Euro. If the Euro collapsed - lower value currencies would hit Germany hard. less customers and more competition for manufacturing. They will do anything to keep the Euro because that keeps the PIGS; PIGS and the Germans wealthy. Its easy to call people lazy when the lazy have a giant boot pressed to the neck and cant move. Watch how successful Greece would become if they ditched the Euro. The Germans dont want this it would give the other poor nations Ideas and they would jump from the Euro ship and fast - Germany's easy ride would end -very quickly. So in a nutshell if the euro collapses and Europe descends into BS - blame the Germans Again. Social entitlements you think made them broke. America has spent more on military. -Spend your money on military, social benefits or a pile of manure - seems all roads lead to debt. Ever crossed your mind why this is? It clearly is not what you think it is. So back to the drawing board with that one. Think a little beyond the headlines and apply some thought; they don't lie to you but they do take advantage of ignorance. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (150) 1 hour ago

I have re-read and re-thought the post and have the following remarks:

First we need to go back to 1999 when members of the EU were applying to adopt the Euro or not,

1) “…when the Euro was forced upon Europeans…”the first fallacy of the post is that when the Euro was introduced, many countries most were scrambling to join the Euro

2) To say the PIG countries (Portugal Ireland Greece) had a much lower value currency is quite incorrect. Before the introduction of the Euro there was the EMS (Exchange Rate Mechanism) and this together with the exchange rates prior to the introduction of the Euro served as the basis of the valuation of the currency (the Greek Drachma, the German Mark, the Irish Pound etc) ; all the European countries benefitted from this, especially the “southern European “ countries who now had a stronger currency, more stable and all countries could buy more, borrow at a lower interest rate. So for 10+ years all the Euro countries benefitted from this stable and strong currency but some used this more beneficially than others.

3) Given that the cost of living read wages are lower in the Southern European countries as compared to the rest of Europe, given everything being equal corporations could actually have shifted business to these countries, but did not since besides wages, skills and cultural aspects play a major part of any business. To cast aspersions on Germany on this point is almost like being a Cyclops.

4) All the European countries financially benefitted from this very large European market and some more than others; but the largest benefit was peace, cooperation, ease of movement of people and goods and prosperity at least until the artificial financial crisis of 2008.

5) “Watch how successful Greece would become if they ditched the Euro…” no correct-minded Greek would agree with this, the need to stay within the Euro has united all the political parties within Greece since if Greece were to ditch the Euro it would be an economic, social and political suicide.

What I would agree with is the back to the drawing board, in reviewing how the Euro can be better managed, not because it needs to be saved but because it has been good for Europe as a whole.

The rest of what needs to be said has been posted earlier, but I am appending that to this post, since it logically belongs here.

So back to the drawing board with regards to Monetary Economics: 1) how can one have a common fiscal union without common fiscal policy and common fiscal governance? 2) why do governments via Central Banks need to borrow money to pay for running of their country, why cannot they print their own money, managed by a citizens' supervised board. Social Economics 1) How can one maintain peace and social justice within this economic realm In the background of this, investigate the major 5-6 godzilla financial institutions and major Central Banks who manipulate the money and its supply around the world without any corresponding supervision or legislation, whatsoever. Oh dear, the smell of financial and social putrefaction sweeps the earth with concentrations in these financial institutions, central banks and those with “brilliance” who control them. Political Economics: 1) How can we enforce legislation via democratic principles or otherwise to counter this financial dominance, when those with the authority to do so are deep in the pockets of these godzillas? Let us not be divided by those who will use nationalistic sentiments of one against the other, of distractions of war provocations, of distractions of global events and showbiz/royalty inanities Let us leverage the will of the people, of all the people, to keep united in peace, while fighting these godzillas against humanity.

[-] 1 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

Of course they scrambled - the governments - they thought it was a good deal - you are now witnessing that good deal. I suppose you think that the Greeks are scrambling for austerity also? NO - their government does what it does without regard for the people - just like when they introduced the euro.

They did real well with the Euro? If it was such a good deal - why dont so many of the other European nations adopt it? They know better- talk to the average European about what they think about it - more than half would tell you they hate the euro- it was forced upon the people by their governments - no choice is not choice. Lets not forget all the fear, fear sales pitches to promote peace and unity.(laugh)

Why dont you look at the clever conversion between the Euro and any given countries old money - take Italy for example. You might understand why things are screwed. You would understand it was not a good deal for most average people.

What country has benefited most from the Euro? Germany

What country is at the center of the Euro crisis? Why do you think this is so? What do you think would happen too Germany if the Euro evaporated? Toast.

Do you think, without the euro that Germany would be so strong? Not a chance.

Your responses are nonsense devoid of common sense. The typical drivel reported in the media, ignoring reality - you don't work for the eurocrats by chance? (German by chance?)

Live there and talk with people - understand how the prices of basic food stuff was raised rapidly with the Euro adoption.

Most of the wealth generated was at the top. Like usual.

let me draw a parallel with China - We hear constantly of chinese success, right? everyone in the world thinks China is unbreakable economically? All the broke countries are racing to do trade?

800 Million Chinese have not benefited at all with Chinas success. We dont speak too much about that in the media - do we.

well you didnt hear of all the nasty euro news either - bad for business and not very good when your pushing a new product.

In Europe many countries that adopted the Euro are no different - the people at the top benefited the most. They are also the ones to lose the most if the euro collapses.

It is not as complex as you make it. You can refute what I say all you want but I stand by what I have said. The money game is simple. The effects of it just as simple. NO matter what is written in the news papers or spewed out of the politicians mouths.

Funny, The Germans went to war on several occasions. Was it not a goal of Germany to unite the European continent under their rule? War didn't work so well for them?

Seems they are desperate to unite Europe under the euro or else it is doom, doom doom. Interesting parallels.

Now, its economic war and fools like you don't grasp that (or perhaps you do) - that's why the 99% are where they are and the 1% are where they are - the 99% are told what to think - despite what is playing out before their very own eyes, should tell them different - but like lambs to the slaughter they have no clue.

If you think a currency can bring peace to any nation or group of nations - then you don't understand money............and nothing I say will matter.

Explain why the poor countries have been so poor under the euro? If it was so good, why have they not succeeded? Poor when they entered and poor right now - apply some common sense. The wealthy countries, in particular the ones that run the euro seem to be doing very well - then and now. Think this is just chance?(laugh)

Logic - seems the euro didn't do much but stabilize the wealthy and keep the poor - poor. Thats the name of the game.

How do you make money? you take as much as you can from someone else. What happens to them? debt and poverty. Its all very basic.

So carry on believe what you want, but watch - the euro will fall. I wont explain - it would be just too much common sense for you to accept. (man - you remind me of a few Germans had the pleasure or not of meeting)

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

Shadz66 you have had some excellent posts but on this one as in the earlier one, under this topic, I must disagree.

Greece is getting the repercussions of bad policies and endemic corruption.

The fault with the Euro was that it did not include the cultural diversities and it assumed that one currency could be managed irrespective of the diverse fiscal policies.

To compare the fiscal situations of the Greeks and Irish with those of the Icelanders is incomplete without mentioning how each landed in the fiscal doldrums; Iceland was scammed, the Irish and Greeks went on spending sprees and politically mismanaged, in Greece there is endemic corruption.

Rhetoric can be damaging.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

@ 'omg' : Fair enough. We're not obliged to agree but I'll try to explain my thinking & try to be brief, so :

a) Re. "Iceland was scammed" : Agreed but the people refused the platitudes and blandishments of The Banksters AND their own Icelandic 1% ; just refused to be dictated to and reclaimed their democracy.

b) Re. "Ireland" : The Irish State was solvent and the People and the Society were vibrant, forward looking and progressive BUT Private Irish Banks were effectively bankrupt and their creditors (mainly UK Banks!) somehow expected that they deserved 100% of their loans back and The Irish 0.01% and political class just went meekly along with the sudden socialisation of the debts of these Private Irish Banks and hey presto, Ireland was a basket case and the Innocent Irish Population, back to being 'wage slave' serfs in generational debt in their own country.

c) Re. "Greece" - however they got into the situation, there was a huge part played by non-other than Goldman Sachs, whose 'innovative financial chicanery' helped cook Greece's books prior to joining The Euro. The 'Odious Debt' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odious_debt ) is being used to turn Greece into a fiefdom of The Banksters. "Austerity" used to be euphemistically called "Structural Readjustment" and both African and South American countries were ravaged by it in the 70s & 80s and for the very same reasons - namely to maintain the charade of Bank Solvency. Finally of course, The Greek Population Fundamentally Pressing Reset on their economy ; nationalising their National Central Bank and reclaiming the issuance of their currency, makes uncommon sense to me and a lot of other people.

Once one shifts out of the 'received economic wisdoms', myriad possibilities open up as a nation is freed from The Unconscionable Greed Of The Parasitic Bankster Class ...

radix malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 1 points by ohmygoodness (158) 2 years ago

I completely agree with you on what has happened with regards to

Public Loss and Private Gain principle, if you saw the earlier post when I believe the Financial Putrefaction has it roots in central banks, large financial institutions etc but

I do not agree that you can compare the failure of Greece because of adopting the Euro to the failure of Iceland. And to say that if the Greeks were to revert to the Drachma all will be well again, do you think Greece will be able to recover like Iceland on their own ?

I do agree that the Financiers have manipulated the world's financial situations via the central banks and the 5 or 6 financial Godzilla institutions but how do you fix this, by defaulting on payment. I actually question why do Governments have to get into debt in the first place and often their incomes are absorbed in debt even before they can start to work. But then we first have to fix the system.

If everyone defaulted on payment and you did not get your interest on your bank account, or payment for goods you sold or your salary then we would be in quite a chaos, again ripe for those with the financial muscle.

So instead of breaking down institutions either create new ones in their place or manage what one has better.

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Let's try managing what we have better.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The contrast between Iceland & Ireland could NOT be more stark. Ireland, erstwhile "Celtic Tiger" has been reduced to penury & its population pauperised by the (B/W)ankers within the blink of an eye in historical terms. The Irish State & its population were doing fine ; Private Irish Banks were in a Shit -Sandwich of their own making but everyone else has had to take a bite with long term austerity etc. This paradigm is now playing out all over Europe. Clearly, in modern "High Finance" / Consumer Capitalism, it is the PEOPLE themselves who are "commodified" and being Consumed !

In Iceland of course, The People had the sense & wisdom to decide to stop being Sheep at a Wolves' dinner party ; chose not to put up with the bullshit any longer & showed the strength of their Collective Solidarity & respect for the rule, letter & spirit of their laws.

What a sick joke deMOCKERYcy is turning out to be for the rest of us :

i) Government OF The People (The 99% WE, The People - Us, the Vast & Potentially Overwhelming {if only!} Majority !) ;

ii) BY the People (The 1% & take your pick of Politicians, MSM etc. ) ;

iii) FOR the People ("THEM" - The 1% of the 1%, The 0.01% - The Usurious Banksters, Larcenous Plutocrats, Corporate Kleptocrats & Dynastic Despots).

Unlike "Money" alas ; you couldn't make this Shit Up !! Thus, re "The Debt" we are all apparently and allegedly in, Six Back to Basics Questions :

  • a) HOW MUCH ?!

  • b) Calculated by Who ?

  • c) Owed by & to Who ?

  • d) Who decided where the Decimal Point goes ?

  • e) WTF Is This "MONEY" Shit Anyway ?!

  • f.) Cui Bono ?!

In the world today, we live under the Tyranny of Accountancy ; of Debit, Credit & Double-Entry Book-Keeping, run by Free Market Fundamentalists, Usurious Parasites, Gangster Capitalists, High-Finance Hucksters, Banskster Robber Barons & Associated Warmongers - all cheered on by the aiders, abettors & acolytes in the MSM. People have the ability & desire to see things as they really are but they are kept ignorant & are "Mind-Managed" by the Main Stream Media (Faux-ABCNNBCBS / BBC et al) enthusiastically spewing incessant "Televisual Valium" as well as the ubiquitous Imperial and Free-Market-Fundamentalist Propaganda.

Consider that "Money", The Market & Modern Finance Capitalism are increasingly antithetical to human progress, environmental sustainability & indeed, basic ethics.

Options ? EDUCATE ; AGITATE ; ORGANISE and engage the collective imagination & sense of community ... before its too late and We All end up sleepwalking even further towards overt FASCISM.

per ardua ad astra...

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Thank you. Glad to see this post here. There's another post called "OWSinlove" -- refuse to respond due to this poster's chosen name -- .

An interesting point was made there too, which is a third way, one which avoids the debilitating taint of "socialism" which is solely based on the need to change the overall economy by "creating more opportunity."

It seems too many people can't appreciate the balancing act major players in any economy must maintain between profit motive and social equity. Too many people are myopic and can't wrap their minds around the constant reality of this dynamic and fall into one or another persuasion -- either the "free market" religion will cure everything or higher taxes on the wealthy will cure everything, when both apply. Until we can graduate to a balanced discussion of the simultaneous ongoing interplay between these two dynamics, we will continue talking past one another.

Still, there is no way 400 U.S. citizens with 1.7 trillion dollars in net worth is good for anyone, even, or especially themselves. The value of their own assets will decline in this current paradigm, apart from all of the other human suffering by the multitudes.

ShayToronto is exactly right. So sad to see all the lessons learned throughout the millenia of "civilization" forgotten. Civilization itself remains to be a proven concept. It is a confidence game but one worth playing right.

Thank you shadz, too.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Exactly!

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

My point is, this approach isn't going to pay for anything, not even the debt of the elites.

[-] 4 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Must be some kind of new quantum economic theory where pure debt-energy and cutbacks energize multi-inter-diminsional-black-markets...

Whatever it is, the US looks like its just about to find out all about it; especially if Romney has his way.

[-] 4 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

LMAO, fantastic explanation!

[-] 3 points by socialsynergy (32) 2 years ago

Yeh - Its called "black hole economics" - you don't want to go there or you will lose your mind and any common sense along with it.

[-] 1 points by Muz (1) 2 years ago

what a shame for USA they forward resolution on Baluchistan but their eyes are closed on what's going on under their head the resolution supporting BLA ,BRA and other terrorist organizations who killed almost 2000 innocent people and 200000 people displaced and they claimed responsibility for all that what a shame I hope one day US govt would be in the Hand of Ows moment keep it up and world would be a better place

[-] 1 points by dirty1water4globalist (1) 2 years ago

Greek shipping gets tax breaks? Obama's Administration idea of American values urge no vote on austerity by Greek people.

US Coast Guard set to release plan to follow IMO an organization of foreign shipping interest for American regulations on the amount of bacteria virus and invasive s while delivering foreign made goods to America.

Perhaps if President Obama told the Greek people to tax the rich, America would not be as dependent on a united European monetary system to bail out Greece so there is not a ripple effect on the American economy.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

aus·ter·i·ty/ôˈsteritē/ Noun:

  1. Sternness or severity of manner or attitude.
  2. Extreme plainness and simplicity of style or appearance.
[-] 1 points by poltergist22 (159) 2 years ago

This is what the Greeks should do except as Greeks instead of Americans maybe the rest of the economic world would have some confidence in them if they did.....actually we should do this also...www.nationalday911.org

[-] 1 points by HansUdo (1) 2 years ago

Hello over there in the US. We have published an "CALL FOR RESISTANCE" from Mikis Theodorakis at: http://bit.ly/zQSBxd

Translation by clicking US-FLAG at the right corner (above) Pls. feel free to use it for your american readers.

Best wishes - Hans-Udo for www.tv-orange.de

[-] 1 points by RomulusAugustus (1) 2 years ago

Sadly it is only a matter of time before similar scenes emerge in countries we considered to be developed wealthy economies.

In a system based on competition,where people must sell their labor to businesses to attain the resources they need for survival, how can people compete with the constant advance of technology and mechanization of increasingly advanced processes?

How can people compete with cheap labor in the developing world, not only for manufacturing but professional roles too! In countries like India and China, a massive boom in education is producing highly intelligent graduates available to Western Corporations for less than a quarter of the price, and just as accessible via the internet as employees in the same building.

As jobs are lost to technology and outsourced to developing countries, it is very likely we will see similar 20%+ unemployment numbers and a downturn in consumption as people have less money to spend.

What I believe we are seeing is the end of an outdated system that promised unlimited exponential growth in a world with finite resources.

We are experiencing the sobering reality that we must find a better way to organize ourselves, allocate resources more equally, promote efficiency and sustainability in production of goods and services we consider essential.We must admit that some theories are fundamentally flawed, the world is not flat and the Earth is definitely not the center of the universe. Acceptance of such errors has led to amazing advances in our knowledge and understanding. We can only imagine the wonders of a post-Capitalist world, our descendants will look back in amazement at the folly of our time.

At some point the people will decide what is more important: The Economy or The People, how long the major stakeholders try to reanimate this zombie economy is any ones guess? How much would you take before you hit the streets?As austerity measures come into play, I think that's the question many Europeans will be asking themselves over then next few months.

[-] 1 points by NewtPenn (1) 2 years ago

It's a shame what we the people allowed to happen. It's a shame that we slept while a group of criminals took over and stole everything we owned collectively for themselves. It's a shame but it's not too late to take back what belongs to us. They may have the power but they only hold it because we ceded it, so we can take it back. We only need to be committed and relentless and single minded, and we will succeed. What is happening in Greece will surely happen everywhere else if we do nothing because the world cannot produce wealth at the rate the criminals are sucking it up with their bogus financial rules. We need to redouble our occupying efforts to force the changes we need to survive. Please share your stories at http://newsparticipation.com and join the on going conversation of world citizens organizing for a better world.

[-] 2 points by Imagine (6) 2 years ago

The criminals didn't take over. They've always been in charge in America; the elite is what founded this country's government and designed it with their own interests in mind. There patently IS NO "golden age" of American democracy or of capitalism for that matter that we can fondly look back on and wish to return to. It never existed.

What the Greeks need, and what we need, is genuine democracy, not the pseudo-democracy with controlled choices ("pick your favorite puppet of the elite") in dog & pony show elections.

And what we and the Greeks need is to bring an end to the economic model, capitalism, that exploits the vast majority of our countrymen every hour they're on the clock. Capitalism doesn't work for the average person, never has. Think about it: ask yourself 'how long could capitalism survive if every worker who was making $7.25/hour or $8/hour was for whatever hypothetical reason only ABLE to do $7.25/hour or $8/hr. worth of work instead of adding value to their employer at many times that rate per hour and getting paid a tiny pittance for their efforts?' If there wasn't the huge difference between worker value added and worker wages the bottom would fall out of capitalism within the week because business owners wouldn't be able to meet their overhead costs nor take home a profit. The ownership class (not the "1%", I've always hated that term, but more like the uppermost 5% to be more realistic about it) makes its living off of the exploitation of everyone else, by leveraging our lack of other opportunities into slavery by another name, forcing us to sell our labor piecemeal at an absurdly low rate or else we earn no living at all.

Basically capitalism is all about those who have the capital to exploit others exploiting the ones who don't have the capital to exploit others. If this is the best that humanity can ever do then someone please blow my brains out because I don't want to live in such a shithole of a world. No, happily this is pretty effing far from the best that humanity can do. Capitalism has to go into a museum next to Cro Magnon man and Java man. It needs to be (peacefully, non-violently) abolished and replaced with direct worker ownership of the productive assets in order for humanity, in terms of the average human not the average Rockefeller, to have a future that is something more than just being a beast of burden slaving away for someone else's benefit. It doesn't deserve to remain in use as an economic system because it benefits a tiny privileged minority at the expense, just in varying degrees, of everyone else. Capitalism is an abomination.

[-] 1 points by thelightofthenorthstar (4) from Warren, ME 2 years ago

Greece must default, do not take the banksters package! Save the world from predatory banksters! . Thelightofthenorthstar.com

[-] 1 points by slizzo (-96) 2 years ago

Austerity is the solution. No wonder ows is against it.

[-] 1 points by Riley2011 (110) from New Britain, CT 2 years ago

I am by far not an expert in national finance But when I saw how little the elderly and employees such as teachers will have to live on I don't know how folks will make it. 480 a month for senior citizens? 900 for police and teachers? How is our stock market with this news and increasing gas prices and food prices keep going up?

[-] 1 points by jimevanhoe1 (55) 2 years ago

THE GREEK COLLAPS IS ABSOLUTELY TIED TO WALL STREET AND GOLDMAN-SACHS…………INVESTIGATING THEIR GOVERNMENT and Institutions and their TIES TO BUYING mortgage backed securities Sold to them by Wall Street creating CHAOS…………. Obama’s ties to corruption = Goldman-Sachs
Goldman-Sachs the company that has put the USA into Recession for 13 yrs out of the last 30 yrs. 1988,89,90,91 & 92; 2000, 2001 & 2002; 2008,09,10, 11 & 2012. * Documented by Matt Taibbi author and writer for the Rollingstone Magazine & Noni Prins, former executive at Goldman-Sachs and myself James P. Evanhoe.
This time October 2008 Wall Street destroyed assets globally, (Greece is just one), that total $82 Trillion Dollars U.S., that is TRILLION and have never been convicted. Even on 60 mins the Head of the FBI investigating these charges was ask by the 60 mins commentator if he, the FBI, were incompetent?
That answer is ABSOLUTELY, the FBI is Totally incompetent as is Obama. OBAMA IS REALLY ONE OF THEM! Obama’s once Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel – contract employee to Goldman-Sachs. Obama’s Under Secretary of State, Robert Hormats, Goldman-Sachs International, Vice Chairman. Obama’s COO of the SEC Enforcement, Adam Storch, Goldman-Sachs Vice President of Business Intelligence. Obama’s Chief of Staff for the Treasury, Mark Patterson, Goldman-Sachs Lobbyist. Obama’s Department Director of the NEC, Diana Farrell, Goldman-Sachs Financial Analyst. Obama’s Chairman of the FIAB, Stephen Friedman, Co-COO, Chairman of Goldman-Sachs.
Obama’s Ambassador to Germany, Phillip Murphy, a Director at Goldman-Sachs. Obama’s Chairman of the CFTC, Gary Gensler, Co-Head of Finance at Goldman-Sachs. Obama’s White House Counsel, Sonal Shah, Vice President Environmental Policy at Goldman-Sachs. Obama’s White House Staff, Alexander Lasry, Government Affairs Analyst for Goldman-Sachs Do you have a job or did you get a job from OBAMA or did he give us all a con-job as did Wall Street and Goldman-Sachs!

[-] 1 points by Bayraba (24) 2 years ago

Create your own systems, Greeks. Your own currency. Forget the politicians. Boycott their currency.

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 2 years ago

"It is estimated that one in six Athenians were protesting today, with the trade union march constituting the largest component of it. The police, notwithstanding their earlier warnings to the government, fulfilled their purpose well, pro-actively disrupting and blockading the union march by engineering conflicts along the main feeder routes. But even with superior organisation, weaponry and a politically organised will to engage in physical combat, they could only do so much. Greeks on Twitter almost uniformly report that people were thronging, out in their thousands, all over the city, not just in Syntagma Square and nearby routes."

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2012/02/in-athens-tahrir.html

[-] 1 points by russman (8) 2 years ago

At the very beginning of the movement, someone had predicted that it will not last the winter. It is turning out to be true. How sad! America is synonymous with failure.

[-] 1 points by shatan8 (2) 2 years ago

huh

[-] 1 points by 21stCenHomoSapien (7) 2 years ago

You can follow the demonstrations live, and read running updates of events in the Greek Parliment here: http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/53244

Parliment plans to vote on the bailout agreement at midnight tonight, Sunday 2/12/12 (5pm ET). Demonstrations in Syntagma square (in front of Parliment) are growing large.

[-] 1 points by DonQuixot (231) 2 years ago

Go to ballot boxes on election day with big banners saying "All voters are useful idiots voting for the 1 %". Occupying squares is almost as effective when squares are occupied in daytime only. At night people are sleeping, and therefore the protest is unseen. Occupy in the morning and leave after dark. A tent is planted and removed in a few minutes. And occupy several squares simultaneously, so police have to divided their forces. Best wishes from a Spaniard, 69 years old, in Alicante Spain. You have my full support and my donations. Never give up until final victory. The ominpresent and omnipotent CIA had its website collapsed. They are not so omnipotent anymore, thanks to people of the whole world helping the 99 % against the 1 %. This is a global revolution which is only starting, but will keep on, and on, and on, perhaps lower every winter, but stronger every spring and summer, year after year.

[-] 1 points by Imagine (6) 2 years ago

How about making a campaign poster that has a photoshopped image of Obama morphed together with an image of Romney, to make them 1 person with both their features? And at the bottom of it a caption: "Billionaires for Bamitt Rombama! Because it doesn't matter who you vote for or who wins... you, the people of America, will lose like you do every election and the billionaire elite will win like they do every election... otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to vote at all!"

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Now,starting with Reagan who was the front man for the Wall Street Bankers by allowing de-regulation at their behest and ending with Bush jnr who post haste pushed through their bailout and bonus continuance.It is the Republican Party that is the concocter of this GFC and rampant kleptocratic goings on.The same kleptocrats also organized the October 1987 stockmarket crash and robbed as many as they could back then as well.Placards being held up at rallies saying something like the 99% are going to vote out all Republicans will scare the living shit out them.That is the only fear they have.Your vote is worth the same as theirs.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Greece has led a new path for humanity in the past. Let them do so again. If they refuse to capitulate to the corrupt world order we must come to their aid and help them chart a new path for us all.

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

What Greece needs is a default, and politicians who can actually do it. Unfortunately, it might take a regime change to get there.

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

Interesting, I've just finished writing a lengthy blog post about Greece and the EU political intrigues.

votersway.com - the latest blog entry.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by norral (2) 2 years ago

this is symptomatic of what is going on around the whole world. we live in a farce that is orchestrated by the rich. they want more and more and to give the rest less and less. eventually when enuf of us wake up and stop begging for the scraps from their bowls and start demanding it things will change. what makes one person worth 500 million dollars and another worth nothing. the answer to that is a dysfunctional society that is only for the rich.

[-] 1 points by hbairak (1) 2 years ago

Greece suffers from decades of parasitic activity of its own politicians and citizens who made friends with the corrupted system. There is a big amount of Greeks out there being sucked dry, while watching the parasitic segment of the society gaining ground by giving the blame to external factors... external factors might be the cherry on top that will make the ´cake´ collapse, but if people don´t fight against corruption, giving money to save the country is just pointless. And lowering wages and pensions is definetely not the solution to the problem.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

Does any of us really know why Greece is in debt? I have read that their pension programs, their yearly vacation programs are among the most generous in the world, yes, no?

I think I have read that their economy is based around tourism, so there has been a natural drop in their economy as the world economy has shrunk.

Now, granted that the world economy did not have to shrink if reasonable debt reduction programs had been offered to the 99%, like, lowering interest rates to anyone who commits to paying down their debts.

How about some numbers before condemning anybody?

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

votersway.com - The latest blog entry is about Greece, the reasons for their problems are are familiar, if not mundane by current standards.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Greece is having a hard time because they allowed institutional corruption to become so acceptable, ingrained, and integrated into the fabric of their culture and society over the decades and centuries. There is much to love about Greece. It's a beautiful place. But corruption is wrong wherever it occurs and should be constantly monitored.

Greece would represent a better opportunity for others' help (investment) if it had established a better track record over the past decades/centuries. At this point, there's no where to go but up.

It is very disappointing to hear the story of the financial technocrat who went in and reported to the rest of the world on the true state of Greece's finances, only to be arrested and accused of crimes against the country -- simply for being the messenger reporting on their dire financial condition. That story alone speaks volumes about what must be an ongoing culture of corruption. The Greeks need to take a long hard look at their own culpability. They probably will discover the source of this ongoing corruption in the wealthiest 1% of their country.

Otherwise, I applaud their generous pensions, social safety nets, retirement plans, and the like, all entirely affordable within effectively managed systems. It's the corruption that brings everything down, due to the machinations of some bad actors in the ranks of the very wealthy.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

I'd probably venture to say it's fifty-fifty, too much money being made on existing wealth by the wealthy will suffocate an economy, too many pension promises and vacation days can also stifle an economy, combine the two together for an even more toxic result.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

It's a matter of degree, not kind. These are numbers that can be worked out, if adults are in charge.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

Not necessarily. The world's economy is ultimately a ponzi scheme. All of the wealthy people expect handsome residual interest payments on their wealth, and that is harming the world's economy in complex ways.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Well, this is true. The wealthy do expect handsome residual interest payments on their wealth. The degree to which they dominate in this way will determine the degree of social-economic disaster for the rest of us.

I favor an approach which allows people to slowly accrue a degree of wealth (interest rate payments or other dividends, rent, etc.) which will allow them physical comfort in their declining years. I favor strong health care systems which allow people to live healthily for as long as their natural lifespan allows.

I am completely convinced existing technology in our current economic system allows this possibility. The very wealthy however are doing everything they can to prevent anything like this. They are consumed with greed. They can't see anything beyond short term gains and keeping up with each other without any regard for the greater social good.

You may be right, that it is just as much a matter of kind as degree. We must work within the existing system for change rather than "throw out the baby with the bathwater." There is an awful lot of "middle ground" with which to work in this respect, so let's work together on this.

[-] 1 points by OccupyNews (1183) 2 years ago

I agree that the world has built up a relatively decent infrastructure and if not for the existing wealthaneers wanting more and more, the world could sustain while converting to more natural sources of energy.

I came up with a four point economic plan about 15 months ago. Ironically, the lowering of home interest rates to record lows is one of the points I made in that article.

http://wallstreetchange.blogspot.com/2010/11/2010-after-election-4-point-economic.html

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

I believe it. Those forces which operate against us are fierce and mighty. It isn't surprising your idea couldn't gain traction -- at least as far as the world of fifteen months ago was concerned. Things will change in the future, however.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26862) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Move forward in unity.

( as posted elsewhere )

To abstain from voting does nothing. Protest at voting sites the non-representation of the people, forward thought and consideration. Vote for the least objectionable, the least obvious corrupt/greedy choice. Continue to protest for change and the end of corruption. But to pull out of our legal process is to hand it over to those who are systematically plowing us under.

We may not have a real candidate in this election. But to abstain from the process does not help our cause. We need to get more people involved in the process of government not less. Get the major portion of the population active. Lead them to proactive involvement. Develop unity in addressing change and confronting corruption and manipulation. This is how we win. Not by walking away and saying unfair.

Now and between elections is when we should be most active in pushing for things that will return government to us.

1) Campaign Finance reform - get money out of politics.

2) Corporate person hood - fallacy and invitation to manipulate : END IT.

3) Conflict of interest in government - Ownership of stocks and property being affected by proposed legislation.

4) Ear marking funds for projects that affect - Ownership of stocks and property by members of government.

5) No line item veto to use to clean Bills that are passed - Not having veto power on singular items attached as riders on a bill allows corruption of a bill and an end run on the legal process to pass items that would not pass on their own merit and on things which the American voter would not support.

These are some of the Dogs in our fight.

Abstaining or opting out of the process does not help us.

Uniting in common cause does help us.

Get active be proactive. Recruit the general population to partake in the process in positive fashion.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Thank you.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26862) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You are very welcome. Thanks for sharing your appreciation.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26862) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Perhaps in redirecting Austerity in the proper direction.

They should point this in the right direction. Back at the Oppressive corrupt greedy Rich.

Just as we are trying to address the greedy/corrupt in the USA.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Thank you again. Phrase it in terms of maintaining their own self-interest. Do they understand a functioning infrastructure and vibrant economies (without rampant growth, but with social safety nets and a healthy society) enhance the value of their assets over the long term?

There are just a few bad actors in the wealthiest 1% (and some wannabees in our ranks) who put tremendous energy and resources into focusing our international consciousness on a certain ethic, that "greed is good" and the "free market" has its own magic.

A slow, graceful distancing from habits and myths like these is called for.

It doesn't have to result in humiliation or hardship for anyone, if only we could manage our thinking better. We must detach from the idea that amassing the most money is the only thing that matters. Thank God for environmentalists. I can still go outside and walk around in the woods. This means more to me than almost anything. You're only rich if you have money when you really need it. Wealth isn't a measure of how fancy a car one owns. It's measured in contentment. I can't be content in a ghetto, but I can be content in a safe place with fresh air. Just some thoughts on the whole thing...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26862) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Again you are welcome. We are all in this together.

A term to be promoted a concept to be expanded:

Term: Cooperative = Member owned. - example of Electric Power Cooperative.

Concept: Not-For-Profit. - example of = Credit Union.

Cut out the opportunity for greed and manipulation from the very start.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Concepts, their characteristics, and examples: this is a good way to keep the debate focused on the essentials. It's a good way to communicate, to teach without appearing to preach.

Credit unions are the way banking should be done. Banks and much of our societal functions should be treated as utilities rather than profit-makers. But how do we shift away from our public obsession with making money off government to keeping functions best left to impartial (government) agencies focused on public service?

There's a compulsive, knee-jerk reaction to these issues. How can this be changed to a serious debate? Have our media become too beholden to Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch, and the like?

Maybe people are more complex than I give them credit for being, and smarter, too. I hope so.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26862) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Peoples intelligence has been abused, and manipulated by the corrupt/greedy. We are starting to see this in this spread of world wide social unrest an awakening to the facts. An outcry of enough.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Enough indeed! The following post about how Greek workers shouldn't strike so as not to upset the tourism industry is just so much more blather from a 1 percenter, no doubt, or one with ties to those who own the tourism industry. It displays so much of their utter disregard for people's rights to reasonable working conditions and compensation.

[-] 1 points by gcaorg (19) 2 years ago

A strike is the most stupid what the Greek can do at the moment. This disturbs tourism which is actually the only proper international income of Greece. Instead of strike they can vote off the government at the next vote, that is democracy.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

NO! I say let them STRIKE!

But I am so glad I don't have to strike. What a pain.

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

max out your credit card, then complain about having to pay down the balance?? when you live in an era of false prosperity, brought on by expanding credit, you have no right to complain about the consequences. same is true of all other PIIGS nations, the US and Britain. The lifestyle was an illusion... deal.

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Both the very wealthy and foolish consumers are to blame. One isn't exempt. We are all in this together. Who, exactly, allowed commercial and investment banking to merge? All of us, in some way, mostly through ignorance, did it together. But who is being scapegoated? The poor pensioners and poor in general are. Let's take our thinking to a level beyond delusional scapegoating. We are supposed to be able to learn from horrific mistakes of the past. Right?

[-] 1 points by ineptcongress (648) 2 years ago

that's not the problem--did any i-bank blow up a bank? the banks lent against too much future income for housing, and people therefore have less income to go around... less for food, movies, clothing. 52% was the median percentage of income at which people took out loans from 2003-2007 to buy housing. all the money trapped in housing means fewer hockey lessons, fewer movies and other expenditures. it's an allocation issue and too much went into housing.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

You are 100% correct. Thank you for saying this. Let's incorporate these lessons into our national/international zeitgeist for future generations.

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

If the credit card company was foolish enough to give you a credit line beyond your ability to pay, you default and they learn an important lesson - after all, they do absolutely nothing besides establishing creditworthiness - nada, zilch, zip. The banks lend other people's money, not their own.

Only defaults can discipline the banks, unless there are bailouts of course.

[-] 1 points by Bighead1883 (285) 2 years ago

Defaulting to the usurers is inevitable.The situation has grown deplorably. This is why it never made a referendum.The robber barons knew that the Greek people would leave the EU. The rampant world wide war on its populace by the Wall Street financial juggernaut is.Free trade=cheap foreign labour to them.So stuff you,your job and this country,its the world we now want. Well they have bought revolution and with that no certainties for anyone,themselves included. Corporate sponsored governments will fall globally and the rampant growth of growth for growths sake will end. It may well be that the Plutocrats are engineering monstrous acts to hasten the uprising before the elections,because they know the revolt in America will be the largest on election day when the people demand to be heard. The Capitalist system has failed and so has the EU. Remodelling on a per country basis will begin soon,as soon as the idiots are out voted.

[-] 1 points by saboro (12) 2 years ago

Defaulting is the only right way to end this. We happen to thing similarly. Check votersway.com, my latest blog entry is about Greece.

[-] 1 points by russman (8) 2 years ago

Why not just concentrate on occupying ? Why get involve with so many other things, so many other countries? We are being evicted from everywhere. This is becoming an evicted rather than an occupying movement. This movement is becoming a disgrace to humanity. There is no fighting spirit or sacrificing spirit. We only allow ourselves to be pushed around, beaten up, pepper-sprayed, tear-gassed, tasered, arrested, etc. Where is the American spirit to stand up and fight for our rights?

[-] 1 points by JohnWa (513) 2 years ago

If it were only that simple. Strategy of fighting without violence controls the response to some degree.

If you want to win then strategy is paramount rather than putting your head on the block.

The disgrace to humanity is the inequity dealt out in every way not only here but across the globe. It is a global issue and support for other protest is effective as the ideas are universal as is the struggle against the dismantling of societies bu the corruption, greed and power of a few.

[-] 1 points by stephenadler (118) 2 years ago

At some point, a society needs to learn to live in a way that it can survive by cutting it self off from the rest of the world. The only way out for Greece and my guess many more countries in the future, is to refuse to pay the debts and manage to get by without foriegn credit. I think we should look at Iceland as a prime example of how one can survive an economic atom bomb desimating your country, regroup, reboot and start over.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

a warrior fights against the forces which oppress him. we are WARRIORS OF THE HEART against the tyranny of the rich. the rich who do not pay their taxes. the rich at our expense. the rich living off our slavery. the money shark preachers. the corrupt contracts taking public money paying excessive company salaries. we are one movement of humanity. one heart crying out for freedom and justice. who is fighting against us, who is preaching religious division, who is condemning us to eternal hellfire., who is gaining from perpetual war, who is lording over us and trying to shut me up. they are the ENEMY WITHIN our gloriousREVOLUTION.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Well said. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am full of thanks for these current posts. Believe me, many are with you on this. Cool.

[-] 1 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

Thank you! we know we will win because we are confident in the victory of good over evil. those who say man is evil are the ENEMY. those who say we are sinners are the ENEMY. man is good and we will make that good win against their crucifixion BS!

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 2 years ago

Go, team!

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[-] 1 points by antiglobb (47) 2 years ago

Help Greece. Just to provoke, the Unions of the policemen have requested to put in prison the members of BCE, FMI and UE. They accuse them to destroy the greek democracy and the survival of his people. Organize a strike to substain them. If they''ll win, the capitalitic system will immediately fall down.

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[-] 0 points by marga (82) 2 years ago

The one size for all policy is not gonna work. Only the American people can set the people of the world free by withdrawing their troops from countries where they are not wanted and take care of their own people and let other countries take care of their own. No one ask us to play world police, that idea was implanted inside our head from childhood on. America was being used as canon fodder for some one else agenda. We had our freedom and lost it when we took other peoples freedom away. Those who deprive others of their freedom to exist will lose their own in the process. Live and learn. Our country was build on logic and reason. Get rid of the lobbysts, fiat money and religious rights. Religion is a choice not a right.

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[-] 0 points by marga (82) 2 years ago

OWS you are being guided to help people to help themselves. Whatever you do, don't do it for them or they will sap you of all your energy. If people don't know by now that you only harm yourself when you harm others they will never know. The globalists gonna stop production globally because it is causing us to dig our own grave, Oil is dead energy that we been using and give it life. Its plain to see its harmful to our planet and to us. There obviously is a good reason why nature buried it so deep into our planet. Humanity must get of the oil and find clean energy before it saps all our life giving energy out of us. The globalists know it and from what I can tell they are switching from a production line which is based on a monetary system to a service economy based. Pay very close attention to what is playing so you won't lose your idendity as a individual. You automatically belong to the system and the NWO is nothing new at all. You are living it and the only way out of it is to let your consciousness be your guide. We cant go on the way we been going constantly grabbing, snatching, hoarding things while other's have no means to sustain themselves. We have a responsibility to our fellow human beings and we have failed miserably. We kill the good guys and let the other live because he tell's us what we want to hear at the time, not what we need to hear. No one seems more misled then the American people where money and God rules rather then reason and logic. How dare we let that interfer with our cushioned life style. If America doesn't change its ways of thinking it will lose all those people who made their cushioned life style possible. No sane person is gonna live in a country where Christianity dominates. Other faith's and religion are just as important. I'm a radical atheist and I got a voice. I will be not be silenced and go away so crime against humanity can continue without being held responsible. No one is above the law, you just thought you were.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

All state funds, unless done with the full approbation of the tax payer, are "embezzled"; and we get "bamboozled," which can be rather painful.

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[-] -1 points by tomahawk99 (-26) 2 years ago

they are broke, they have no money to pay for the overwhelming number of government employees ( 1 in 3 Greeks works for the government). Most of the people protesting are civil servants. This is what occupy wants for everyone to work for the government and pay high taxes. Good luck with that,