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We kick the ass of the ruling class

GOOD NEIGHBOR POLICY

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 13, 2011, 2:10 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

Following respectful and good-faith dialogue with members of the local community which has been rebuilding since the trauma of 9/11, Occupy Wall Street hereby announces the following Good Neighbor Policy:

OWS has zero tolerance for drugs or alcohol anywhere in Liberty Plaza;

Zero tolerance for violence or verbal abuse towards anyone;

Zero tolerance for abuse of personal or public property.

OWS will limit drumming on the site to 2 hours per day, between the hours of 11am and 5pm only.

OWS encourages all participants to respect health and sanitary regulations, and will direct all participants to respectfully utilize appropriate off-site sanitary facilities.

OWS will display signage and have community relations and security monitors in Liberty Plaza, in order to ensure awareness of and respect for our guidelines and Good Neighbor Policy.

OWS will at all times have a community relations representative on-site, to monitor and respond to community concerns and complaints.

Occupy Wall Street October 13, 2011

Note: In conjunction with local community members and their representatives, OWS is also working to establish off-site sanitary facilities such as port-a-potties.

113 Comments

113 Comments


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[-] 7 points by upperclassghettogirl (12) from Saskatoon, SK 2 years ago

this is what we need, the reputation of this movement needs to be protected if we want to have an impact...

[-] 2 points by notsobravetoaster (7) from Somerset, NJ 2 years ago

exactly. :-)

[-] -2 points by JustAskAlice (-4) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

you should avoid using the plural because you speak for no one

[-] 2 points by szyqtl (8) 2 years ago

Really? Do you think that ideal will hold up? We refers to the "99%". You don't have to be main stream, but to pick out a word of solidarity, that's a little too much. We are the 99%. I am part of the 99%. Without the majority of the people (We the people) this movement will fall flat. Try to keep your mind a bit more open and appreciate the fact that someone else is fighting for, and cares deeply about, the future. Peace to you.

[-] 2 points by CorporationNotPerson (129) 2 years ago

Like it!

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Right on sister!

[-] 4 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The demonstrators in Liberty Plaza have a Constitutional right to express themselves and give voice to the outrage of a whole generation. God bless them and the sacrifices they are making in order to bring international attention to the lack of real democracy in our land! What they are protesting is, in essence, the institutional inequality and general disrespect of others' rights so neatly embodied by Wall Street. Becoming over-focused on their rights at the complete expense of the rights of their innocent neighbors, however, is the quickest route to the end of the movement. Let mutual respect, equality and good solid discipline reign in Liberty Plaza, and let them spread from there like a beautiful ray of sunshine throughout the whole world. Respecting both ourselves and those around us is crucial to the long term strength of the movement and is the soul of what we're trying to achieve. Work hard and stay alert!!

[-] 4 points by PartOfThe99 (4) 2 years ago

This is very encouraging. It is vital to remain responsible and non-violent. The likes of Bill O'Reilly and his ilk will be looking for any excuse to discredit the movement. Great job. Keep it up.

[-] 4 points by YourLocalLibrarian (16) 2 years ago

will do.

[-] 4 points by draets (4) 2 years ago

To all the occupiers around the world:

Consider the place you are occupying as your property and you are the property manager. Think about what a property manager of a shopping mall would do, ensuring cleanliness, providing security, etc. That is also what you should do as a property manager of the place you are occupying.

[-] -2 points by JustAskAlice (-4) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

are you kidding? it's not at all our property and the very statement made by OCCUPATION is in some sense refuting the notion of property. we're trying to take down "the mgmt", not re-install it.

[-] -2 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

So if you are refuting the notion of property, why have a rule about it? Dumb!

[-] 4 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Good! Enforce it! This is the only way for the movement to be taken seriously. I applaud these standards.

[-] -3 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

As I posted above, it is sadly far too late for this movement; all you have to do is look at rule #3 to realize what a serious bunch of hypocrites they are. Like all people of their kind, they have no respect for law and order unless it serves them. This is why they at once can state that the city should be providing them with trash receptacles, while spreading vitriolic comments about the police who are essentially be paid by citizens to protect them.

[-] 3 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

What rubbish! You obviously have not been to Zuccotti park nor have spent much time with members. The park is crowded but its not trashed nor messy nor are walking paths blocked.

I find it interesting, you posted elsewhere of how you voted democrat and who everyone should go home and write their congressman and etc etc, and yet you are still here on this site. Why? Why are you taking so much time to remain on this site and address vitriol and all of your other complaints against the movement?

[-] 4 points by Bizinuez (120) from Raleigh, NC 2 years ago

Good work crew! Keep it rolling in Liberty Plaza!

[-] 3 points by Chupacabra (55) from Houston, TX 2 years ago

Good job. The less anyone has to complain about, the more supportive surrounding, full time community members will be.

[-] 3 points by Noid (22) 2 years ago

Awsome idea remember you need the support of the people listen to them.

[-] 3 points by Noid (22) 2 years ago

Awsome Idea. Remember you need to support of the people listen to them.

[-] 3 points by Beckdo (3) 2 years ago

Great work! They were going to use your neighbors against you....and even some occupiers need to be reminded how to be good neighbors. See you Sunday.

[-] 3 points by notsobravetoaster (7) from Somerset, NJ 2 years ago

Nice work!!

[+] -4 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

It's a park, not a campground for unemployed hippies. The park rules are clear about that, regardless of your agenda. Police are kicking the miscreants out tomorrow morning. Good riddance. No one is above the law.

[-] 4 points by seanhellier (6) 2 years ago

what you don't get is that this is a fight for the soul of a country that is the embodiment of the greatest ideas man ever conceived, and that it has been stolen from it's rightful owners.

That theft ends now.

[-] 1 points by darkhound (66) 2 years ago

Well that's your view. Personally, I think you guys are idiots. And the owners of the park want you out. That's the beauty of this country. You can disagree, but you still have to follow the law. You can't just unilaterally say screw the other people and do your own thing.

[-] 1 points by seanhellier (6) 2 years ago

you know, I really don't want to waste a second of my precious life calling people names. If you disagree with me, why don't you simply tell me why instead of trying to insult me?

[-] 1 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Amen, amen. :-)

[-] 3 points by internetguy (6) 2 years ago

"Hi, I'm DARKHOUND, I can only think in the most puerile, voluntarily moronic stereotypes about the most diverse and civic-minded public gathering in recent US history. I can't confront their legitimate points about the state of society, so I'm gonna call them hippies. And I'm soooo much cooler than hippies." Disappear already.

[-] 2 points by carol54 (8) 2 years ago

Couldn't agree with you more. I reckon DARKHOUND is a bankster in disguise.

[-] 2 points by szyqtl (8) 2 years ago

Okay, tell us what your grand idea would be, given the current gloomy status in our society? Good riddance?! Why would you say such a thing to people you don't know? You AssUme things that aren't true, you pass judgement on your fellow Americans who are suffering? Do you feel better now? Peace unto you.....

[-] 2 points by notsobravetoaster (7) from Somerset, NJ 2 years ago

You ... spend your time in interesting places.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

Gee guess YOU were wrong. Yea, I saw all those hippies too: grandomthers, doctors, nurses, unions, vets, middle aged people and their kids, professors. Yep, all miscreants. Boy are you ridiculous. It doesn't matter because you can come along with the rest of the majority of fed up Americans or stay in your pathetic fearful place. The owners , as it turned out, had nothing to do with the "cleanup" This is being orchestrated by the higher ups who are TERRIFIED their rule is over, which is IS. As I said before, political speech in a PUBLIC place is THE most protected form of free speech. It trumps all other considerations including misdemeanor laws. Sorry but I guess you also need to go read our first amendment in the Constitution.I am constantly amazed at how ignorant we Americans are about what our Constitution actually says. so much for our public school system teaching a serious civics course.

[-] 1 points by LoTek (53) 2 years ago

Including you friend.

[-] -2 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

+1 darkhound

[-] 3 points by irishblueyesthe (3) 2 years ago

Sounds like a great start. I encourage everyone to respect the guidelines.

[-] 2 points by jen (4) 2 years ago

Please have your members be more socially conscious of people with disabilities! During the march I heard the word 'retarded' used several times by people who I recognized as part of the group. While you may not realize it, people regard the use of such words (also Lame and Crippled) as offensive as racial slurs. We left a copy of Beauty is a Verb (an anthology of essays and poems by established poets with disabilities). I write this with all compassion, not criticism. I believe that, particularly young, able-bodied folks do not realize their place of privilege -ie if unemployment for the general population is at 10% - unemployment for PWD is consistently at 75%! I do not mean to push my own adenga! - I merely want all minorities to be included and stopping the liberal use of 'retarded' is a starting place.

[-] 2 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 2 years ago

I'm glad you're going to impose some structure.

You need to organize your GA so that things actually get done in less time.

If you know anyone involved in 12 step programs, get their input on how groups are run and what the concept of a "group conscience" is.

That is a model you can use to develop an effective means of determining consensus and making decisions, without getting bogged down in making sure every last one of the 500 people present agrees with you. That isn't workable.

[-] 1 points by pursuitofHappinessYOGA (1) 2 years ago

Excellent GNP I hope we adopt something like this for OccupyLA.

Till we all meet in Washington on the Mall of change... Cherry Blossoms in Spring... Maybe a big national GA at the feet of Lincoln, Washington & Martin Luther Kings feet while on display to the world...or a real Constitutional Congress of the People.

in Love, Light & Peace, Arthur http://pursuitofHappinessYOGA.com twitter: theGuruWithin

[-] 1 points by Andreas (1) 2 years ago

Yeah, right on!!!

[-] 1 points by skyk (1) 2 years ago

You know what, I think you just NAILED the DEMAND from #OWS -

2 demands!

1] Zero tolerance for violence or verbal abuse towards anyone;

2] Zero tolerance for abuse of personal or public property.

Thats ALL we need!! Think about this, what if the government followed these rules?? We would not need ANY enforcement beyond this! Thats called FREEDOM!

[-] 1 points by RobertYellowTie (18) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

After 28 days residing in Liberty Plaza, I on Friday morning decamped to my apartment in Brooklyn. Immovable in the face of such obstacles as pouring rain, dropping temperatures, police rousting, limited hygiene, haphazard menus, and limited security, I that morning reached the limits of endurance with those among us who either thought civility standards optional or who supported excuses for letting them slide or who refused to seek (nasty word warning!) enforcement. I got tired of being told to go fuck myself when I requested respect for quiet hours or other basic needs. Sleep isn't an option, nor is desire for it in opposition to the revolution, nor is it something one ought have to beg for from one's park dwelling brothers and sisters.

I heartily support the above Good Neighbor Policies -- even if they are only a beginning. Every community for 10,000 years has wrestled with similar issues of individual liberty, group conduct, expected personal contributions, social safety net, and what constitutes a "mensch". Every community establishes some internal system of justice and fair play and a means to ensure them when not everyone feels like playing along. We humans keep re-inventing the wheel and -- surprise -- it keeps turning out round. I look forward to our maturing community standards (or diminished winter populations) as they inevitably result in improved civility and permit me to again sleep in the park. Until then...

  • Robert Segal

P.S. (edit): I'm still showing up, participating, and enjoying the amazing company of many great people. I'm just holding off on residing there for now until the community becomes a better place to live -- as well as to protest.

[-] 1 points by COMC (3) 2 years ago

HI all,

If you really desire a strategy that will punish Wall Street and those financial institutions who consider themselves elite, all you have to do is launch a boycott of all publicly traded companies, i.e. stop buying all goods and services from companies listed on the Stock exchanges.

This WILL hit Wall street, fund managers, investment bankers and bonus millionaires where it hurts them the most, in their wallets. A very simple yet very effective strategy that will add significant potency to your cause.

You have a lot more support globally than just the folks turning up to demonstrate, so keep up the good work.

COMC

[-] 1 points by GentleGuy (6) 2 years ago

Zero tolerance? What is the punishment? Will you exile people breaking "your rules.". I thought your community was about taking it to the man. The 1% that keeps you down. Sounds to me like you are trying to take over and you want to be the 1%.

Zero tolerance against OWS making any rules.

[-] 1 points by GentleGuy (6) 2 years ago

Zero tolerance? What is the punishment? Will you exile people breaking "your rules.". I thought your community was about taking to the man. The 1% that keeps you down. Sounds to me like you are trying to take over and you want to be the 1%.

OWS is scary!!

[-] 1 points by beb (3) 2 years ago

I support the protest and live 1 1/2 blocks north of the square on Broadway. Please remember that regular people live in this area. We live above the businesses and are the 99% as well. The marching past with drums and screaming has been happening last night and tonight since midnight consistently. Please remember your neighbors and be considerate of our home and families.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

want to talk about positive social change? Here's patch Adams ( a movie with Robin Williams was made about him) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXRDl2qpKso

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 2 years ago

Well done. This is very positive.

[-] 1 points by 1931 (1) 2 years ago

I'm wondering about the neighbors who frequented the park before OWS moved in. I read they may have been families with young children. I also wonder about "facilities." I read that restaurant rest rooms have been used without patronage--a bother to owners and customers. I think this is a fantastic protest and needs to include more of the 99%. That requires a lot of attention.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 2 years ago

Have you ever seen this park? It's not a playground or ballfield, it is a paved open space where office workers have their lunches outside on nice days. It's more like a public square than a park. There are lots of these types of space all over Manhattan.

[-] 1 points by Idaltu (662) 2 years ago

YES!

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 2 years ago

THANK YOU!... Without this movement, allowing the Peoples' Voice to be heard.. the Outrage is SO Serious in our Country.. there could have been Anarchy... So BRAVO to OWS for offering the advantage of a Platform and a Peaceful route to Change!..... Thank You! (the Editor and Staff at Investors4Justice.net)... Well Done!...

[-] 1 points by ruth67 (31) 2 years ago

I believe this is a very important message in this post. First of all all the demonstrators wherever we are, are learning to cooperate with each other and the policy instated here is very important for all of us to respect. We all have a common goal here together and its very important to have basic rules that everyone who is involved commit together. We are all hoping with our collected joint efforts that this global movement will finally bring with it a system which works for the mutual benefit for all and Im pretty sure it will also bring with it a shift in how we relate to each other on a more compassionate caring level.

[-] 1 points by Jeditiffin (1) 2 years ago

Hopefully, this will be enough.

[-] 0 points by sufinaga (513) 2 years ago

cannabis is our holy communion. drumming should be permitted if under attack. verbal abuse of the police to push them into a psychopathic breakdown is a productive use of our brain power.

[-] 0 points by hotdoghenry (268) 2 years ago

your a little late for all of this. Should have been thought out before you inconvenienced us all and made filth of our neighborhood. Time to move on. We don;t want or need you here

[-] -1 points by thomas888 (4) 2 years ago

They want you all to move your camp site.How about moving camp to another location.Is there any area grounds in the area more than one location you know places to camp not so close to down town?Where you all could perhaps get permission to camp at, like if it was a concert festival etc meeting place perhaps private land close by to relocate to?Sombody has to own some land around there thats on "We The People", the 99% side.Or are you all going to not comply and try to hold your ground?I would vote to relocate camp and regroup more will join in with you any way,will need more room a bigger camp site any way. Is there any area grounds in the area more than one location you know places to camp not so close to down town?Where you all could get permission to camp at, like if it was a consert etc meeting place perhaps private land close by to relocate to where its alright to put up tents and have campers brought in like a camp grounds,fair grounds perhaps.With utilities etc.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

Again, there is NO legal reason they need to move. please see my previous posts about first amendment rights trumping ALL other reasonable considerations ( infringement on people's ability to go to restaurants, leisiure activities etc)Their right to political speech in a public forum trumps all other considerations. Although, I do think they should keep the drumming and noise level at night to a minimum to respect residents living nearby.One still needs to try to be considerate

[-] -1 points by JustAskAlice (-4) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

good luck enforcing this

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Don't worry, since nobody is actually responsible for the group, and there is no de-facto leader, these rules will simply go unenforced as they have since the very beginning. It's nice propaganda, though.

[-] -1 points by ThinMan2 (46) 2 years ago

Is this a State Farm ad?

[-] -2 points by cheeseus (109) 2 years ago

Corporation OWS oppressing it's own shareholders.

[-] -3 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Just looking at the first rules, I had to laugh.

  1. Zero tolerance for drugs? When I went to visit down there I saw someone smoking a joint. A large number of the rest of you appeared high.

  2. Zero tolerance for verbal abuse? Right. On the local news, a reporter captured one of the protesters angrily yelling "Jew!" to a Jewish man who had been instructing the deadbeat how to get a job. The assailant then tried to cover his tracks by saying that he himself was Jewish. Still, to a Jew, to hear that kind of comment sounds sort of like the hate speech we'd expect in some other place other than New York. Second, you are holding signs that call names, "Bankers = Nazis" for example.

  3. Zero tolerance for abuse of personal or public property? If so, why are you occupying private property when you are clearly not wanted? Why are you marching uptown to loudly protest in front of private residences, presenting security risks for the families of the people who you have deemed enemies?

Just looking at the top 3, and especially the last, I have to say, you people are the biggest bunch of hypocrites and liars I've ever seen. I'm willing to bet that the only thing you have no tolerance for is dissent, and I suspect this post will be removed.

[-] 2 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

you are either a plant, a brainwashed rightwinger, or one of the 1%. I am a 46 yr old educated mother of 3 and one of the top 4% . You should be ashamed of yourself.You are a small minded person

[-] -2 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Your name-calling doesn't surprise me either. It's the classic response that I'd expect: anyone who opposes your movement is either stupid, brainwashed, or rich and therefore evil. Well let me tell you something, Mrs 46 year old mother of 3:

  • I am NOT one of the top 4%, I am not even close

  • I live in New York, and pay 4% city taxes. My taxes are being spent on a massive police force which has been deployed not to oppress as they are often accused, but to protect the safety of the public, including these people.

  • I am not ashamed of myself, but I am ashamed that so many people would blatantly disregard the law and take to the streets without ever lifting a single finger to try traditional means, such as writing to our congressmen, etc, etc,. I am ashamed at my generation for producing such people who have popularized the notion of being a victim. Our parents and grandparents who fought in wars to protect this country are dishonored by these people.

PS - I voted for mostly Democrats in almost all the elections I've ever voted in.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

I stand by what I said. If you weren't so ignorant maybe you would realize people since my generation HAVE used "traditional means" like voting ( dieboldt machines stole both elections from Gore and Kerry) and appealing to our reps with letters and petitions. This is what happens when big money interests take over the country for 40 years. I don't know how old you are, but I think you ought to actually READ about previous civil rights movements. This is happening all over the world.And the only "people" the cops are "protecting" are the rich and powerful. My parents and grandparents fought in WWII and they are PROUD of what everyone is doing across the country. Speak for yourself. If you had actually READ our first amendment in the constitution you would see it stated we have the right to redress our grievances by large protests. It doesnt say" If you follow park rules, stay off the wrong part of the sidewalk etc" As a matter of fact accoording to most consitutional scholars, Political protest in PUBLIC places TRUMPS any misdemeanor trespassing laws.It is considered the HIGHEST form of protected speech.Go read up my friend. You are simply ill informed and I am sorry you are so angry at the wrong people

[-] 1 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't believe you spent time in Zuccotti, while I was there I only smelled pot once. The majority of people I had seen were too engaged in activity to be 'high'. You say the people in the park are calling themselves victims. How? No one called Tea Party members 'victims', they called them pissed off citizens and even those like A. Huffington claimed they had reasons for feeling the way they did. There are vets who are a part of this movement and Veterans' For Peace is also a part of this movement. I suggest you go up to one of them and tell them how their parents and grandparents are dishonored by their supporting their conscience and freedoms.

Its arrogant of you to assume no one wrote to their congressman, the political system it broken, it doesn't really make any difference how many letters of petitions one signs. Things have gone too far in one direction and its time to stop it from happening. As far as I am concerned throwing away ones vote on democrat is as bad as throwing it at a republican. Its time for a third party.

[-] 0 points by Danimal98367 (188) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

Redteddy,

It's kinda funny that you answer the guy's claim about seeing 1 guy smoking pot proves drugs are tolerated with "I smelled it too", but on to the bigger point.

This movement has defined itself from the beginning as a movement of victims. It is centered around the premise that the 1% (when it is really the politician cronies) have screwed the rest of us. The movement plays from the position of being victimized. No one called the TEA Party "victims" because they asserted their position from a place of strength. Rather than saying "big bloated government is pilaging us, whoa whoa is me" they took to the (permit-approved) rallies with an empowering attitude of "we can fix the problems we see if we unite". The signs they held up were focused on our children's future, untethered by tax debt rather than signs spelling out their student loan teary-eyed lives.

[-] 2 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

That's not true, they were working and middle class people who were afraid after the bailouts and unending recession just like OWS members, in that sense they are 'victims' too. The person who said "As long as these big corporations have a good crony capitalist in the White House, they can rely on DC to bail them out until the whole system goes bankrupt" came out of the Tea Party (Pailin) not OWS and yet OWS maintains the same position. The only thing that separated the two positions was how much government should pay a role in solving problems. Why is the Tea party coming out of strength and not OWS when they maintain the same position? In fact I would say OWS shows more strength since its numbers surpass that of the Tea Party and OWS has spread more quickly than the Tea Party. Cannot remember the last time the Tea Party was able to bring together as large a number of participation in any rally as OWS has.

One person smoking weed in an area doesn't make the entire population of OWS 'high' or even pot smokers. Its like saying because you smelled pot in Washington Sq. Pk that everyone there is high. You are simply trying to smear the entire campaign.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

additionally, I watched the antisemetic filthy remarks of that guy danny Kline, the lotion man made. Frankly, for you to analogize the movement with this obviously mentally ill kid is a fallacy. He even says he just got out of jail, and "is not mentally ill" Good try though

[-] 1 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The protesters may be imperfect, but they're the best hope for the future of democracy in this country. Compare them with you and your instincts for removing dissenting posts: your kind of thinking is the best hope for the future of dictatorship in this country. No offense, but most of us here really hope you and your domineering ways do not succeed.

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Actually, what I said was that I suspected MY post would be removed. I deeply suspect that this will evolve into the type of mob (if it hasn't already) in which the end will justify the means. If it were up to me, I would not remove posts, I would prefer that they all remain because only then can we see the foolishness that pervades this movement.

As for "my kind of thinking":

My kind is the kind, who when he sees issues that he disagrees with in society, takes action by writing letters to my congressmen to appeal to their senses. My kind is the kind who votes in every election, taking time to learn about the candidates and what they believe in. My kind is the kind who votes "across the aisle," supporting the men and women I believe in, not a political party.

My kind is the kind who knows that Democracy in the United States is a process, made purposely slow by design by our founders, which is why the three branches are pitted against each other.

I am a member of the middle class in New York City, supposedly someone you represent but with whom you have nothing in common. Why is that? Because I am the kind of person who has worked hard my entire life, starting with lowly jobs in big box stores in middle America, being a gofer, never complaining, and eventually, after many years of hard work, living his dream of living in New York.

I am not the kind of person who:

Does not want to play by the rules, but cry loudly when the rules don't work in their favor; Disrespects their neighbors; Thinks that financial success is a scarlet letter that identifies a scoundrel; Believes that anarchy, socialism or communism is preferable to our system however flawed.

[-] 2 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

We don't need your comments explained; they do that on their own and reveal a pretty unkind, judgmental and undemocratic mindset in the process. Goodnight, and sincere good luck getting some help with your problems -- especially the wicked holier-than-thou complex. Hard as it may be for you to accept, the majority around you here are normal, decent, hardworking, educated people who happen to know that they aren't being served by a government that's for sale to the highest bidder.

[-] 0 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

I'm really not sure how it was possible to interpret my comments as undemocratic. I am for, and have always been for, democracy. This group does not always seem to be, as demonstrated by some of their actions.

If you were, you'd entertain thoughtful criticism. Instead, your suggestion that I "get help" suggests to me that, you are possibly incapable of dealing with criticism and must resort to denigrating your opponents.

You sound like a well-spoken, educated individual. I don't doubt that you have a genuinely solid reason for being down there. I too am frustrated by things going on, but I don't think this group is what you think it is.

Despite what you say, everything that I've read from OWS-friendly sources including the "Occupied Wall Street Journal" and this message board, but also some media coverage, leads me to believe that while it's POSSIBLE that the majority of the group are sensible folks, they are being drowned out by a fringe faction.

In fact, I suspect that the most unreasonable, and uneducated people (who you say are the minority) are also probably screaming the loudest (I visited, and this was my impression) and I feel that this will ultimately doom whatever positive effect you could have collectively.

You need look no further than the tea party to see evidence of this: among their ranks are people with virtually identical views, yet an oddball faction of racists, birthers, and other malcontents have besmirched the names of those who hold truly interesting views. Now, the entire movement is viewed poorly because of the actions of a scant few.

So it may be with OWS: because there is no official, reasonable list of grievances and no clear spokesperson, the media has no choice but to train its cameras on anyone who they can, and naturally, because the media is essentially a for-profit entertainment business these days, they aim for those who are the most radical-- the people who look funny to a normal person and who don't know the answers to basic questions.

I'm as troubled by you that the media has become, in a sense, a judge, jury, and executioner of ideas in this country, but as a great friend of mine once said, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to win?" If the answer is that you want to advance your movement, then the sensible approach is to learn how to play the game.

[-] 2 points by Observer (2) 2 years ago

You are right on target. Too bad your user name is Go Home Brats. That sort of puts people on the defensive right off the bat.... It's hard for people to listen when they've been insulted by your introduction of yourself...

[-] 2 points by melissadhuffman (4) from Wilmington, NC 2 years ago

This group most definitely stands for democracy, most of them at least. They are enforcing their Constitutional right to assembly and their basic freedom of speech. This group is against the false democracy that has been inflicted upon us by the bottom line of multinational corporations with ridiculously high-paid lobbyists. That is just one of many grievances. Voting, sending letters to our "representatives" do next to nothing when the eyes of those "elected" officials are shaped like dollar signs. When this happens, the People have no choice but to take to streets so their voice will be heard. There are plenty of people (whether graduated or not from college or high school) who are highly educated about the movement and most of our grievances and would never resort to aggressive or offensive language when speaking to an individual or group with a different perspective. Those are the people who truly represent this movement, not the fringe faction. The fringe faction is not here to stay. The Tea Party movement was sabotaged by that faction- the loud bigots, ignorants who have no desire to become educated, etc. The media allowed and wanted for this to happen with the Tea Party, ask any of its original members, its founders. Occupy Wall Street demonstrators need to be aware of this so that we don't allow for those small-minded folks infiltrating the crowds take over the occupation. This movement is in its early stages. The entire movement is not viewed poorly because of the few miscreants. The real ranks need to stand ground as the miscreants will not, can not. There does not need to be a named leader; as Eugene V. Debs said while making a speech for workers' rights in Ohio, "I never had much faith in leaders. I am willing to be charged with almost anything, rather than to be charged with being a leader. I am suspicious of leaders, and especially of the intellectual variety. Give me the rank and file every day in the week. If you go to the city of Washington, and you examine the pages of the Congressional Directory, you will find that almost all of those corporation lawyers and cowardly politicians, members of Congress, and misrepresentatives of the masses—you will find that almost all of them claim, in glowing terms, that they have risen from the ranks to places of eminence and distinction. I am very glad I cannot make that claim for myself. I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from the ranks."

This is not a movement of liberals of conservatives, of Republicans or Democrats. This movement will have NO political party affiliation because it is for the People, the people UNITED. Everyone involved needs to be informed so that they may all be spokesperson. Everyone needs to be the media. This has been incredibly facilitated by social networks, use them.

[-] 2 points by melissadhuffman (4) from Wilmington, NC 2 years ago

And on a personal note, if there are people who are advocating communism or socialism, everyone try to remember: "Social science doesn't kill people, people kill people."

[-] -3 points by Danimal98367 (188) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

Oh great. Now you're going to police my drumming? Fascists!

[-] 4 points by NorthwoodzAngel (6) from Iron River, MI 2 years ago

police your drumming....come on now its common respect for those around you...you are not the only ones who can hear it . There are little kids and families trying to sleep. Keep it down at night how hard is that and why is that to much to ask..Get some rest and prepare for a new day! Occupy Wall Street is not a ticket to do whatever the heck you want without regard and respect for others! I 100% support all the efforts being made by Occupy Wall Street..way to go and the guidelines are very acceptable and reasonable. And if some do not feel that's true than your not there for the right reasons!

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

I find it HILARIOUS that the same people who are against the police, are now using the very word "police" to talk about limiting activities. You are learning a valuable lesson, my children. A society can't function without rules. Next lesson is: resources are limited. This is why your demands for "free college education for everyone" are so ridiculous....But one step at a time..

[-] 4 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Drumming is not necessary to the overall interests of the movement. Protests are and drumming while protesting is but just drumming on the site is not necessary to the overall priority which is that of information and that of gathering and that of driving a message of change home.

[-] 0 points by Noebie (0) 2 years ago

due respect, drumming can help build community - which is important here

[-] 2 points by Dubby (146) 2 years ago

Honestly, drumming is very nice but I really don't think that 99% of the country are seething because they don't have someone drumming in a park at 3 am on their behalf. There are actually serious issues to be dealt with here.

[-] 2 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

But that's the point. The members who remain in the park are not members of the community. If the members who live permanently in the area are asking for designated times for drumming then they have the right to ask for that. Its not the intention of OWS to become a thorn on the side of people who are not directly involved in the movement. Community is built from common goals and communication both to which drumming is not a necessity. The drum roll ran in the beginning and everyone has heard the call, now its time for other tactics and messaging. What is more important after all? Drumming or the message? Because drumming draws attention but it doesn't deliver a coherent message for those outside the movement. If you piss off a majority of the people in the area then the city will have a reason to disperse of the movement.

[-] 1 points by SkidMarkPanda (4) 2 years ago

Yes. I agree. Often times when people are feeling low, and they doubt whether or not the movement will succeed - the drums and the music get the blood and the heart pumping again. It gathers people around a circle to absorb something -SOME STRENGTH- that words cannot fully embody. I agree that we should not drum into the night, but I don't believe drumming should be limited to two hours, or stop at 5pm.

[-] 2 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

this movement is not about your drumming. Get your head out of your ass

[-] 0 points by alexlavr (-3) 2 years ago

haha

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

Haha, I don't know whether this is a troll or not. I hope its a troll.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 2 years ago

Yes, that one is a troll.

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

if you are talking about me , I am NOT a troll. I just think the focus on constant drumming is silly. The issues here are so much bigger than if someone wants to drum all the time. Give me a break

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 2 years ago

no I was not talking about you but to the one you're replying to

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

LOLOLO sorry. Thanks friend!

[-] 1 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Looking for trolls, eh? Try a mirror, maybe? You should just give in, join the movement, why not? You can't get enough of the OWS forums, it seems... If not, then maybe your time would be better spent writing your elected representatives about the long-overdue repeal of that pesky, irritating 1st Amendment?

[-] -1 points by gohomebrats (-15) 2 years ago

I actually originally came to the site to research the movement. I visited Liberty Square about two weeks ago, and frankly, I came away unimpressed with what I saw. There was no coherent argument to the cause that I could find, although I did feel generally as though the movement's sole theme was to be anti-establishment.

I am fascinated by the site, and yes, am enjoying posting, because it's clear that most of the people are still deluded into thinking that their methods will be effective. Most fascinating is how any dissenters are quickly dismissed as being fools and whores of the media.

Like most mobs, lacking cogent arguments, they must resort to name-calling, misinformation, and outright lies.

Finally, not sure what you mean about the first amendment. I'm a staunch supporter of the constitution and if there was a draft today, I'd gladly go along with the Army or the Marine Corps and defend your right and the right of every other American to do the same.

Your statement comes from a misreading of my original post, in which I stated that I felt that MY post would be removed. I feel this way because I've studied the history of mobs extensively over the past few months, and I feel that history is on my side: movements like this tend to evolve into mobs in which the rights of some are eventually viewed as more important than the rights of others.

I think it's already happened here. Take for example the fact that this group occupies private property. They have already decided that their rights are more important than the rights of the property holders. Or, the rights of New Yorkers living in the area are less important than their right to beat drums all night. The list goes on and on.

Please, though, don't confuse me for a fascist. I'm not the one holding a sign that likens Bankers to Nazis or the person who wants to "Eat the Rich," both signs I've seen and are well documented.

[-] 2 points by psconway (106) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Perhaps you are genuinely calling for more civility? Start with changing your rude, name-calling handle. Try using your real name, or something that describes you -- not something that casts aspersions on people you haven't even met or talked with and don't understand.

The 1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

While this movement may not be operating on your personal communications timeline, or living up to your high personal standards, it is right now sweeping the country, and it will sweep the world. It will certainly not end before the people as a whole have decided, voiced and achieved redress of their grievances -- but none of this is at all likely to take place on a schedule of your choosing.

This lawful assembly of the people in a public place to confer peaceably and ultimately demand redress of grievances is pure democracy. You seem to be against that for some reason or reasons associated with the technical rights of Brookfield Properties or NYC civil code. We acknowledge that they are both involved and must be respected to the maximum extent possible, but never at the expense of the peoples' sacred, overarching Constitutional rights, which come straight from the text of the highest law in the land. As for the immediate neighbors, the citizens working in the park will make as many concessions to their rights as is humanly possible given the situation. That's what this discussion thread you are so persistently throwing verbal stones at is all about.

Put down the stones, 'gohomebrats.' Listen a lot more and post a lot less. You may be surprised to find that you really are one of us. And if your voice isn't being heard in this, and/or you don't like the tenor of some portion of the popular anger that gave birth to this movement in the first place, just post your own positive thoughts and suggestions, or bring your own sign to the plaza and add your positive voice to the democratic conversation taking place around you in real time. Enough with the constant negativity, already! Remember: it is always better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Now is definitely the time for lighting of candles, and they are long, long overdue. Try lighting one for a change!!

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

AWSOME psconway!!

[-] 1 points by hs4265 (107) 2 years ago

Also, you talk about the movement not having"cogent" arguments. HEre's the cogent argument which is pretty damn clear to most of us: For 40 years, corporations and wealthy individuals like the Koch brothers have funded right wing think tanks ( like CATO and HERITAGE among many others) that have infiltrated our govt at the highest levels ( think: legislation on moral issues like gay rights, abortion, prayer in our schools) and are responsible for stolen elections as i mentioned before, with voting disenfranchisement. WE have corps that are destroying our environment for their own bottom line with taxpayers paying the physical and emotional price and cleaning up their messes. We now have Citizens United ( and Gore vs Bush) thanks to the right wing push for judges who are ideologically opposed to most of the country. We have NAFTA, thanks to Clinton and his republican buddies, we have "FREE TRADE" policies that do nothing but destroy and ship out our jobs, we have a push for privatization of our public schools by defunding them to convince people who bad they are and how much better "vouchers" would be. We have taxes on the middle class and poor which are higher percentage than those on the 1%, we have banks/CEO's that destroyed our society and still aren't in jail where they should rot. We have high interest loans on college students rather than more pell grants, and ELSI loans (3%) that the govt USED to give students like me which weren't predatory. I could go ON and ON, but I think you really DO understand what the rest of us are saying. DON'T talk about cogency of arguments here. One of my majors ( prep for laws chool) was philosophy. I know ALL about false arguments and you are FULL of them

[-] 2 points by redteddy (263) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Its not too late. The article says nothing of being 'kicked out' by the city.

[+] -4 points by rema (-7) 2 years ago

how dare you "police" your own supporters!! while i wholeheartedly support your cause, i find it offensive that these "neighbors" that you seem to be so concerned about are legally allowed to drum, and to have a drink, and to verbally express their outrage toward others with any words of their choosing (hello freedom of speech?? do you no longer remember that antiquated idea??). yet you have taken it upon yourselves to voluntarily prohibit your supporters from exercising these very same rights. shame on you!!! while i was originally impressed by the idea of this movement, i am now disgusted by the fact that you have become more oppressive than your oppressors. the suggestion of common courtesy is always appreciated. however, this is going way too far. stick with the original premise and don't lose sight of what is important dammit!!!!!

[-] 4 points by KingCobe (52) from Baltimore, MD 2 years ago

In what way have they become "more opressive than [their] opressors"? A few agreements with those you share a community with is hardly oppression.

[-] -3 points by rema (-7) 2 years ago

by denying the protestors the same legal rights that the rest of the community have, they have therefore become "more oppressive".
i am all for trying to get along, but prohibiting (legal) personal expression is in no way the answer. i find it oddly hypocritical that you are willing to stand up to bloomberg and defy the law on one hand, and yet stomp on people's actual legal rights with the other.

[-] 5 points by fivetimesthefun (107) from Queens, NY 2 years ago

Yea, no one in New York has the legal right to bang drums all night, there are even ordinances against blowing car horns. I'm with you all the way, but it's time to show a little maturity. Even anarchists have rules, you can't live in community without some rules.

[-] 0 points by JustAskAlice (-4) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

you can live in a community without rules if you choose the right community. i thought we were encouraging a culture of communicating effectively and assertively as in HEY MAN COULD YOU STOP THE DRUMMING PLEASE. these "rules" are just stepping backwards into passive acceptance of the system.

[-] 2 points by Flsupport (578) 2 years ago

Drinking and being abusive.....drumming when someone is trying to sleep are God given rights? I support the movement but what I hate is the few people who decide to use it as an excuse to party or cause trouble or just yell abusive shit at people. There is a time for everything, including civil disobediance but not with a joint in your mouth.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 2 years ago

Well it comes down to, do you want to make a point like a rational human being, or do you want to make a spectacle of yourself? You fully have the right to do either. But onlyvone has a chance of actually accomplishing something.