Forum Post: You are aiming at wrong target (it is political corruption you are looking for)
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 11:29 a.m. EST by gale
(14)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Bankers, capitalists, they are only using space they can to maximize their profit. Human thing. It is US law creating process that is corrupted and that enabled this thing. So, instead of aiming at opportunistic elements, you could start looking at those who ar chosen by the people but not acting for the people.
Remove from WS, hit the corrupted politicians who created this mess. If you do not do so, you will surely fail.
Campaign Finance Reform. Boom.
Agreed. Asking corporations to give up greed is like asking a dog to give up a steak. Silly. It's politicians we need to speak to.
Eventually that is where the fight will have to go. Most rational people know this. I'm not in favor of disrupting businesses or attempting to shut down ports but the fact that some passionate people do so isn't going to stop me from fighting for systematic changes.
getmoneyout.com where have you been?
I agree that political corruption and campaign finance are the root cause of most of the OWS grievances. OWS is going to have trouble articulating this clear goal if they remain leaderless though. http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-becoming-increasingly-unpopular-heres-how-t/
Human thing? Yes, sadly greed is a human thing. Why are so many people here trying to shift the movement's emphasis to the government instead of the source? I believe the the Tea Party has been busy addressing the government! Maybe that's why we're busy addressing the source!
If all you're going to do is demonstrate about taxes, like the tea party, or greed, or loan forgiveness like OWS, you will lose. The recruiting of people to go and fight for your position in congress is essential. Civil rights groups, the tea party, environmental groups have all made that jump and have results to show for it.
Demonstrating isn't going to change the thinking in corporate offices. Laws will have to be constructed and passed to force a change. You have an uphill battle. OWS is primarily young people, that demographic doesn't get much attention because they don't vote. You're going to be ignored until that changes.
The reason why people are trying to shift the blame away from the source is because the greedy corporate leaders are scared shit-less!
Electing your own politicians gives you a means of controlling the change. Letting corrupt officials do it for you allows for loopholes in laws that are tailored for the corporations. I don't think very many corporate people are actually concerned. OWS has almost no political power at this point. It's a movement composed mainly of a young demographic that doesn't vote in large numbers.
Now that is interesting. But I am willing to bet that not too many OWSers would be willing to leave the running of our government in the hands of the tea baggers.
NOT!
The revolving door between Congress and the private sector has created a web of interrelationships - networks if you will.
Networks of networks. All of them nitwits.
We will apply pressure where there is weakness.
Certain laws of physics will then apply.
In the end they will be destroyed.
Without EXACT articulation of political responsibility you have no chance. Hit the core. And people will join you. Mess around and you will look pathetic.
You mean like this?
Forum Post: Memo spells out plan to undermine Occupy Wall Street
Posted 43 minutes ago on Nov. 19, 2011, 1:09 p.m. EST by madeinusa This content is user submitted and not an official statement
By Jonathan Larsen and Ken Olshansky, MSNBC TV
http://occupywallst.org/forum/memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-stre/
Or these?
-- Goodbye to All That: Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult Saturday 3 September 2011 by: Mike Lofgren, Truthout | News Analysis http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-reflections-gop-operative-who-left-cult/1314907779
.
He says almost exactly what I said here: -- Upon the Question of Default of Our National Debt July 6th, 2011 http://zendogblog.net/blog/
But he does so with a great deal more clarity and insight.
Actually not. You need no conspiracy action, just plain political responsibility that can create unification of the people. The simpler, the better. Conspirative approach has no such potential.
Apparently you did not read the articles.
Actually I did. And I read your reply concerned about strategic analysis instead of working on plain political legitimation of the cause.
You said: Conspirative approach has no such potential.
I say: Conspiracy exists in nature - human nature. Even kids conspire to stay out late at night.
The article by Jonathan Larsen and Ken Olshansky, MSNBC TV mentioned above demonstrates conspiracy - directed at this movement by an organization linked to non other than
John Boner.
This fact will not be useful among his own constituents - not so long as they see it as our team fighting back against dirty hippies.
And so on this point we agree. Legitimazation of the movement in their minds is an obstacle to be overcome in just the manner you suggest.
But being prepared in states where that conspiracy may play out is not unreasonable. Folks in Florida for example, should be aware they are on the list of a proposed smear campaign.
Combating that campaign may be done in exactly the manner you so briefly described.
Is that the only method we should consider?
And if so, why?
Conspiracy exists, so what? Do you need it? Or you can run this issues straight forward as long as it is plain simple? If you need legitimation, you need to stay away from conspiracy, as long as they are not provable, so it is hard to imagine to get a strong support on it. And in the same time you actually do not need it at all. As you have you work to be done. No matter of conspiracy. Yes, being prepared is always good thing to be, but it can hardy be a primary focus. So, do not combat any campaign that is not deliberated and personal one.
Yes, focusing on that for which there is no proof is a definite liability.
Focusing on that for which there may be proof but there exists such wide spread emotionalism on the topic that public resistance to examining what does exist is overwhelming - again, is a definite liability.
But that does not mean this movement cannot engage in practical jokes of epic proportion.
For example:
Under Opposition research:
. . . . wil produce an analysis of OWS backers and funders, extremist leaders, policy positions, and rhetoric for the development of strategic polling and messaging. The reseearch will also identify opportunities to construct fact-based negative narratives of the OWS for high impact media placement . .. .
If they want an extremist leader, we could in theory give them one. I'm pretty extremist. I espouse non-violence, but I use radical language and imagery. This being an organization with a horizontal leadership structure they won't ever understand that there is no leader. That does not mean we cannot create the appearance of one. My point is that radical imagery and language that highlights the reality of today is in fact marketable to the public.
And so we can use their own belief system against them.
Here's another point from that same PDF:
Targeted Social Media Monitoring
The transparency of social media platforms offers an excellent opportunity to anticipate future OWS tactics and messaging as well as identify extreme language and ideas that put its most ardent supporters at odds with mainstream Americans. These platforms may not be a place where engaging OWS supporters directly could be successful but with sophisticated monitoring and analytical tactics it could provide exceptional political intelligence.
Now just imagine for a moment what this is - it is linguistics analysis.
We can use this. That's why I've advocated a twitter campaign, among other things. It's like listening at the key hole. With a stethoscope. Now imagine everyone on the other side of that key hole screamed at once:
edited:
Corporations Do Not Have Tongues!!
Gimme the Plyers!!
HeyHo HeyHo The Repelican Party Has Got To Go!!
Chaos Is Coming!!
end edits
We might not see practical results immediately - if ever. But it will make them nervous, and so they will be more . . . .
accident prone . . .
and the PDF link is here:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/CLGF-msnbc.pdf
OK. Just the first one.
That doesn't answer either question.
I would suggest that the following pdf contains some extremely valuable information:
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/CLGF-msnbc.pdf
I haven't read the whole thing yet - but there are some interesting things that jump right out just in the first couple of paragraphs:
First - dems are planning an anti-wall street campaign strategy - and because of our protest efforts this right wing group thinks the dems have already adopted a position that as a matter of strategy they will focus harder on an anti-wall street message than they may have without the protest movement.
This shows us two very important things: That we have already had an impact, likely bigger than we realize, and we deserve kudos all around. Second, Wall Street has reason to be afraid.
And we haven't even begun to look at the political process itself in terms of our focused efforts.
This is the creation of pressure. It has already been felt at the political level, even though we have only focused on one portion of the private sector.
These are only what jumps out in the first few paragraphs and there are 4 pages - valuable information I have no doubt, full of hints regarding political strategy, their own fears, our own success to date, and hints of where else we might be successful.
I think I saw something in that PDF indicating immigration might be a topic worthy of our efforts.
I know it has been an issue in Vermont.
I know the federal system has utterly failed the public in it's confusion of policy on the issue - and it may be one we can point to indicating how federal legislation has failed our system of justice.
I could go on.
Are you attempting to save the bankers bacon?
; D
It seems to me that you are buzzing and misting instead of clearing and articulating.
oo, that doesn't answer the question . . .
I find them irrelevant. Maybe I am wrong.
Perhaps they are. I'm sure you can be useful.
opps - I see a typo in my comment a few back - the bold should be on separate lines . . .
mybad.
What? Now that is mumbo jumbo
You don't understand physics? You don't understand how in Central America, when drug interdiction results in crop loss, the crops spring up elsewhere?
You could go squeeze a balloon . . .
Huh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Finally! Amen!
You are partially correct in your assumption, it is Political Corruption. However, like anything else in this country the “corruption” has to be “fed” by a clearly defined source of revenue.
That source of revenue comes from the corporations and wealthiest citizens in this country whom can afford to contribute to the political system to secure favorable legislation to their individual needs.
Essentially, it is as simple as follow the money trail. Why do you think Lobbyist exist to benign with?
OWS has chosen the correct target!
OWS choose symptom instead of cause. That is not a good way to cure an illness. Anyway, if (I assume it will happen fore sure) you realize things are not doing fine, I believe some of you will be bold enough to questing basics of this movement. This could bring this movement some prosperity.
Off course, I suppose this will not happen as long as you are not tired of doing things in a way you are doing.If, or presumably, when this moment comes, we will be in position for redefinition of the whole action.
Before that, people will generally feel bad to thing the whole concept is based on wrong presumptions.
Some of the laws are illegal, and unconstitutional. most of the laws are ok. It's the attorneys and judges deliberate misinterpretation of that law. Changing politicians without changing the process of law in the US may be useless. US law system is outdated and based on bad English system of 300 years ago. Without replacing judges, replacing politicians only will not be enough. Over 50% of judges in this country misinterpret law everyday. There are some good judges, but there are far more crooked judges today than honest ones.
Our legal system is based on written law and precedent. Precedents keep the laws up to date. There probably are unjust laws, just be careful and reflect deeply on a law you believe is illegal and unconstitutional. You get into considerable trouble breaking what you believe are unjust laws. I am puzzled by your statement that the Judiciary is largely corrupt. Why are they corrupt? Is it because they favor the 1% without regard to the law? Is the appeal system flawed as well? I am interested because the President plays a large role in the Judiciary.
I am talking FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE when I speak of corrupt judges, corrupt lawyers. And I am not talking about some small little case involving some minor infraction. The bribery, the complete disregard for constitutional law, and yes, you are correct - "they favor the 1% without regard to the law" And yes, the appeal system is corrupt, and so is the Supreme Court in DC - where I went myself with my case. The entire "precedent" process is corrupt. It's a way of saying, "This judge disregarded the law, so in this case we are not even going to review the precedent set, we will just use it." Precedent law and policy in and of itself is very suspect. I think precedent law does not keep laws up to date, it keeps corruption up to date. For example, and this idea reached the house of representatives and they reacted according to the correct logic: How can something be both a crime and a right to not be infringed on, at the same time? How can this be? You asked "why are they corrupt?"- they can be corrupt because attorneys and judges have created a kind of "fraternity", and if you are not accepted by the group, you are out of luck. They can control money, etc. I had THREE different law firms work for my competitors instead of me, because I was considered someone not to help. This isn't some abstract reasoning from reading the news, this is FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. Now I am focused on putting the thieves in prison. And I am not looking for any help from any law enforcement officer, from any attorney, or any judge, any more. It is time for US Citizens to protect the US Constitution, which is the responsibility of US Citizens, it is NOT the responsibility of govt to protect it. Soon, I will be part of the group that Michael Moore suggested Occupy be formed: Arresting the corporate thieves. It won't be televised, but it will be streamed.
Bankers control the corrupted politicians. The dumb masses vote for corrupted politicians. Electronic voting machine companies rig elections for corrupted politicians.
But yes, protesting the politicians would be wise. That is what they forgot to do in Greece.
Bankers killed Kennedy? Or those who can use the same brutal force on bankers?
No, CIA killed Kennedy. Bankers killed Lincoln. Video killed the radio star.
So, in really shot time we pointed at three bad guys. Shooting at random one and forcing it as a true cause has no political potential.
Not understanding your English.