Forum Post: Would you support a third party candidate if they said they supported OWS?
Posted 12 years ago on May 9, 2012, 1:59 a.m. EST by Craiggiedangit
(99)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Just wondering.
I will not be voting for Goldman Sachs in 2012... Therefore the D and the R will not be on my voting agenda.
I couldn't commit until I had more specific info. Just saying they support OWS wouldn't be enough. Need details before I would support them.
Here's how I vote
If they supported any of the following, I will not support them.
The Financial Modernization Act (which helped create the financial crisis we saw in 2008)
The Republican JOBS Act (which will create another financial crisis as well as it repealed regulations put in place to protect investors after the ENRON fraud... this bill does not actually create a single job either)
The Patriot Act (which stole our 4th amendment)
The NDAA of 2012, without removing Section 1021 (which stole our 5th and 6th amendment)
The War in Iraq (which was based on lies)
The TARP bailouts (which gave billions to a fraudulent financial system that stole people's money and homes instead of creating a real solution and implementing regulations to prevent future problems)
Defense of Marriage Act (which is supported by bigots)
Bombing nations that didn't attack us (which is supported by warmongers)
I find that this list covers a spectrum of problematic politicians.
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Ditto
Honestly, what I'd like to see in the short term is basically a second New Deal combined with major changes to our current banking system, and in the long term I'd like to see America move toward where the Nordic countries are now in terms of social and economic policy, but maintaining a strong manufacturing sector and a highly diversified economy. I laid out a lot of this across multiple different posts on other fora, and I'm going to wind up linking to it rather than posting it all in one place because there isn't room. I'm fairly curious to see what people think of this and I'd like feedback if possible. Here's the general overview of the initial New Deal plan:
http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=184
I went into a bit more detail about why I favor the tax reforms that I suggested in the first link, I offer a similar (if somewhat incomplete) rationale for dealing with debt in the second, the third and forth go more into detail on possible avenues for addressing the unemployment problem, and the fifth discusses possible avenues for dealing with campaign finance and lobbying reform:
http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23&p=119#p119 http://occupywallst.org/forum/everybody-walk-away-from-your-debt/#comment-246898 http://occupywallst.org/forum/revive-the-ccc-and-the-wpa/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/could-high-speed-rail-be-the-answer/#comment-197932 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gytiI1qwPDpnLQ8cRmNXoJFmiy4ob3n6yjqfBHpBH8M/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1
Over the long term, I have a couple of ideas about getting a better handle on central banking and cleaning up the mainstream media:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-wall-street-alternative-a-national-bank/#comment-592661 http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=585 http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-mainstream-media-is-full-of-fluff-thats-great-/
Would someone like Jill Stein or Rocky Anderson be far more likely than Obama to make serious progress on something like this if they were sitting in the Oval Office? Probably. Do either of them have any real chance at getting elected this cycle? Anything's technically possible, but I'll gladly eat my hat if that happens. Is Obama going to do all, most, or even very much of this during the time in office? Probably not. Am I disappointed about that? You bet your ass.
My problem is that while Obama may not be the president we want or need right now, he's far closer to that president, and his policies will bring us closer to that ideal (or at least run away from it far less quickly) than those of a President Romney or a President Paul, and the chances of a President Stein or a President Anderson are basically negligible. Furthermore, the Supreme Court we would get from a continued Obama presidency will be far more friendly to this sort of thing than the Court we'd wind up with if Romney or Paul were picking the justices. Remember, if we had a different court in 2010 then Citizens United would not have been what it was. If we'd had a different court in 2001, then we never would have had to deal with Bush II and the unwarranted and frankly unjustified war in Iraq.
So far Obama's made two appointments to the court and they've turned out quite nicely. By contrast, even if Romney wouldn't necessarily want to put another round of far-right reactionaries who subscribe to the "corporations are people" mantra on the court, he'd be under a hell of a lot of pressure from people like Grover Norquist to do just that. In fact, if you look at the man he's chosen as the judicial adviser for his campaign then it becomes clear that he's already planning on packing the court based on the wishes of his base. The real question is whether we want something approaching a moderate, impartial court or simply a rubber-stamp body for neocons.
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I might be in the extreme here but if people Really have the power to create Change, why are we even talking about elections thats what they want. I want something better. I'm tired of people telling me "to get a job, work harder, quit being Lazy." I am struggling, we are struggling. Change begins with a new Declaration of independence, one where people are truely created equal, where all people vote on all the issues, where voting is having a say and being heard, where voting Is Your Work, and your Job is your Passion and your contribution to the greater good.
I know all this sounds fanatical but its not, we as Americans have done it before and all i'm saying is lets do it again only this time it won't be our political leaders who say what is good and right for our country but it will be US, The People of These United States.
If ya'll that created this website can come up with a site where all the people can go to vote on all the issues, I see no reason why this collective of people can't make a small example to the rest of the Nation that the collective conscience can prevail over this stiffled buerocracy.
I believe that only the will of a United people can have the effect of turning a train around on its tracks. Washington is History, the World is the New Capital, we are Connected!
http://the99percentvotes.com/
Excellent.
Wow, that was quik, ask and ye shall recieve. lol
I heard about this on BBC radio this very early morning. You might find it interesting.
http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/22154/how-german-pirate-partys-liquid-democracy-works
OWS has a laundry list of fixit stuff to be done. Which third party? The biggest problem the nation has to solve is the new 9 11 investigation. This problem is bigger than any political party. Bush has been out of the White House for 3 years, yet the Democrats have shown no interest in opening that Pandora’s box. A third party might be able move forward on a new 9 11 investigation. The entanglements cross Democratic-Republican party lines, but the benefits would be ending the Afghanistan War with a better understanding about how our Constitution is supposed to work and how to choose our leaders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZku5KQneL8&list=PL61A84EF774590006&feature=plpp_play_all
CENSORED: CIA Asset Susan Lindauer - 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAwPqfJqccA
I was surprised the twin towers stood as long as the did
what with those gaping holes in it
(Glee - Defying Gravity (Extended Performance) (Official Music Video)
It's the way the towers were designed. It's funny, to everyone's surprise, that the architecture of the towers was so sophisticated that it would withstand most forces of nature, except human devices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw
strength is based on cross section while mass is based on volume
a building twice as tall would have x4 the cross section but x8 times the mass
That's true. I saw a thread sometime on the Democratic Underground wherein someone conducted a test on a rabbit cage featuring several lit cans of sterno, proving that fire cannot weaken steel.
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True. If the Democrats see the truth and hide it from the public, it is every bit as bad as the original lie. They are the same as the Republicans.
Craiggiedangit, We're slightly better off because of websites like Youtube. Just about everything anyone wants to know about what is wrong with the official version of 9/11 is out there in several versions, submitted by world class intellectuals, scientists, engineers, architects and concerned citizens.
We have to drag the politicans to the table and force feed them the truth about the popular demand for a new "independent" investigation. They need to slow down or stop from campaigning long enough to do something more important.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember 'Ed Asner' as Lou Grant on a tv show years ago, but he and many other quality celebrities are putting together a great 9/11 movie called "A Violation Of Trust" that will air on 9-11-2012. Put it on your calender.
http://septembereleventh.org/alerts/asner.php
OK.Thx
Asner is a good man. Got guts.
You speak very true words here JackHall. Yet this matter is so hot that even the people who started this website (and I respect them) don't want to go near it and might very well eradicate your comment.
5440, I respect them, too. Bloomberg has unleashed the NYPD on OWS. Turned ordinary citizens into dirty hippies. Now the City is being sued. Huffington Post:The city and police violated demonstrators' free speech rights, used excessive force, arrested protesters on dubious charges and interfered with journalists' and council members' efforts to observe what was going on, the four City Council members and others say in the federal civil rights suit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/30/nypd-sued-by-city-council-members-occupy-wall-street-response_n_1464424.html
OK... 9/11/2001 was a day when the playing field was leveled. In the aftermath police and civilians came to realize that they were just treated like pawns being pushed through the ranks.
Bloomberg said they know how to handle crowds without excessive force. Bloomberg believes OWS is to be "handled" not to be negotiated with. Well, OWS is not a swarm of pests to sprayed. On 9 11 everybody was overwhelmed by shock and fear. In this tribulation all of our leaders failed miserably and decisively.
Perhaps 9 11 contains the remedy that shows how the City was incapable of handling the crisis. It is something to begin a conversation with the City about. The rush to clean up the WTC debris was to get Wall St online as soon as possible overriding any forensics consideration for protecting the crime scene. 9/11 was the only thing that could unplug Wall St long enough for everyone to see the shambles the gleaming Twin Towers had become.
It's almost 12 years later and Bloomberg shadow still covers the city. The First Amendment is so much more than freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is the least important of the rights enumerated in the First Amendment. Solidarity with 9/11 Truth organizations strengthens OWS.
"Solidarity with 9/11 Truth organizations strengthens OWS."
Well, maybe not all 911 truth organizations. Some are very toxic and some are very sober and straightforward like architects and engineers for 911 truth. I would be in favor of Occupy having a working relationship with them.
I hope so ,I am running independent and I support OWS, employmentforthe99.com
I think I will likely support Buddy Roemer. He is one of the most hawkish third party candidates on campaign finance reform.
He understands the third party voting dilemma and recently Buddy pledged not to be a spoiler and says he will drop out when it comes down to the wire.
Buddy seems genuinely sincere in making sure that the issue of big money corrupting politics is not ignored. He knows he can't win, but that isn't why he's in it. This guy is nobody's fool. So, yeah, he seems to be the perfect choice to me.
He won't be a "spoiler", good. Too bad no one is going to stand up when O-bomb-ya and his conservative war mongering buddies run rampant over the country.
It just means he doesn't really care.
I believe OWS should endorse someone for the 2012 presidential election. Obama, Romney and Paul are obviously out. I don't see how it matters whether a potential candidate is in a party or not. There's something to be learned from the tactics of the Tea Party in that they try to be leaderless but OWS must come up with something original. The Tea Party seems to endorse offices lower than the president but I don't believe they will officially endorse a presidential candidate. Maybe OWS should do the opposite- endorse only a presidential candidate and not lower offices. It would keep things simpler. It would make it easier to deal with Co-Opters.
okay , listen up as I'm only in the say this once.
We do have a party the Dumbs or repukes I will never again be a slave to these parties ever again . When all they've ever done is put a boot on my neck!
We do have a party right now and it's called the Occupy movement you get it this is our only way out our only way out..We must must destroy both parties they are in our enemies .
I have a dream and that dream is that one day the Occupy will be elected every state in this nation every city and country will have an Occupier running for Congress Senate, mayor city Council all the way down to PTA.
This my children is our only way out! Everyone in this movement must run for office. And we must do it as the Occupy movement.This is why every scumbag MSM media outlet sends trolls over here to attack us. Because they are afraid that we will figure this out.
Now I'm asking all of you to do your patriotic duties and run for any office that we can now. We might be too late because there are so many psychotic tea baggers that are running for office now it might be too late.
I would really like to talk to all of you all at a speaking engagement in Chicago. I really hope that there's a bus that's going from Dallas.
Please don't only say it once. Your message needs to be heard... there are too many people in the world stuck in the leg trap of partisan idiocy.
I don't understand your post. You want to eliminate the 2 major parties and replace it with the Occupy party? I can think of worse things but what would be the point of being this single minded?. I have no problem with Occupy people running for lower offices but this is hardly original. The top spot does matter.
So which party do you like? The one that's 180 degrees from us or the one that's 179 degrees from us?
yes yes let the Democrats rot in hell along with the Repukes. The Democrats are terrified of the tea party and will do anything the Republicans say and they have for years even Obama let them all rott in hell!
Careful what you say... there are some party slaves lurking here...
Which party? I don't care about parties but I believe Roseanne Barr is on the Green Party ticket, whatever the hell that means. I think she's running for Prime Minister of Isreal too, not that I really care what they do. I wonder how that's even possible. Ah, who cares.
No offense but addressing people as 'my children' and talking about 'patriotic duties' is lame.
not when one is talking about controlling governments
Why is Paul out? Hear me out....
I realize he is out of his mind on the economy. Would he have much control over that? no.
I realize he is out of his mind on capitalism. Does the president get to pick the economic system? No. Same with entitlements. He can't make spending cuts without Congress' approval. He can't cut taxes either. Pretty much the only significant changes he would be likely to make are the things we agree with him on.
End the wars? Of course he would, he voted against them. Wiretapping? Over. All of the abuses of executive priveledges would end. What is the one thing the president has direct control over? Executive priveledges. Bush abused them horribly. Obama put the afterburners on. Yet we agree with Paul
I like Ron Paul and he know's many of our rights are being shredded. At this point they're all shredded. I just want to go another way. I'm sure you know that democrats are spamming for Paul like crazy. This is good for the incumbent. Unless someone has a better idea I say Roseanne Barr 2012.
Money in politics is the root of the problem. Paul has no interest in campaign finance reform or regulating lobbying. Paul would sweep regulations aside and let corporations destroy both the environment and the working class.
He is funded by the Koch group (1%) (one of whom was paying for the cyber attacks on behalf of B of A, the Chamber of Commerce, etc.and supports elimination of the regulations that obstruct their pollution of the planet If you want to support the 1% what does OWS stand for again?
I'm going to need more than "if they said they supported OWS". I'm going to need a third party candidate to answer some questions and instead of talking about achievement list a step by step strategy. If they are unable or unwilling to do this then it would be more of the same.
Yes the time is now for a third party that represents what the majority wants! You say you want change then make it happen.
the republicans should get to wear the
wear #3 shirt
peace and freedom
peace and freedom's got a great name
I am not a single issue voter - my first priority is America and my second priority is to minimize the amount of damage grover & alec & koch & Rs do to America
What is YOUR solution to satisfying MY goal?
My solution is for you to take the single issue upon yourself if your priority is America. How can YOU make America better if you don't? We have seen that R's and D's have other agendas. Obama was the best we could do with this system, whether you like him or not, He was a monumental undertaking, he was our Hope for Change and What and Where are we now? Wasn't it the same for the R's 4 and 8 years ago. This Government is BROKEN or corrupt, I don't know which and I don't care. It is time to get our hands dirty and fix it.
We as the 99% are dividing our energies when we stand in front of banks and newspapers and sit in parks, it is, what it is, as a first step. It is time for a New Social Contract, with or without the support of those who would stiffle it. ie. Government, Buisness, Police, D's or R's. A Declaration of Dependence upon one another is the only solution, we are one world, we will survive or die together.
I'm not here to "satisfy" you. I want to fix the country. If a third party candidate said they supported OWS, would you vote for them? Neither of the establishment parties supports us.
I support candidates who want to reverse citizens united
I support candidates who want to reverse buckley
I support candidates who want to reverse corporate personhood
I support candidates who want to reverse alec
I support candidates who want to reverse grover
I support candidates who want to reverse tax breaks for the rich & corps
I don't care if such a candidate "supports" OWS I don't vote for parties
Do you dislike O-Bomb-ya that much? He hasn't given any of those issues five minutes of his time. He's been too busy bombing Libya. I'm glad there is so much principled opposition to both establishment parties here.
Buddy Roemer supports all of those things. I'm glad we have some agreement on him.
don't faint - BR is great - on those issues -
I've heard him many times
I look forward to hearing him in the debates -
however-
Obama DID take on SCOTUS front and center in his SOTU
What would you rather have? A couple of nearly inconsequential SCOTUS issues, or an actual end to abuse of executive priveledges?
Let's face it, the only thing the president has direct control over are executive priveledges and appointments.
Why on earth would anyone support a president who has completely and utterly failed us on those issues?
We can argue about the economy all we want, something the president has little control over.
We can argue about capitalism, something the president has even less control over.
Or, we can find a candidate who agrees with us on the rampant abuses of executive priveledges from the Bush and O-Bomb-ya administrations, and try to get them elected.
I may not think everything Obama has done is ideal.
I may think some things Obama has not done should have been done.
If you have opinions and beliefs such as :
……Obama is not an American / Obama can control gas prices / Obama is a Muslim -
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
If you have opinions and beliefs such as :
……koch, fox, alec, beck, heritage, rush are good news sources
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
If you have opinions and beliefs such as :
……(sotomayor+kagan) = (alito+roberts)
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
If you have opinions and beliefs such as :
……or president is an all powerful executive that can always do what he wants
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
If you have opinions and beliefs such as :
……evolution is a “theory”, Noah put the kangaroos back in Australia, Bush is not a war monger
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
If you believe that, during the last 5 years, that
……Bain Romney or Cotton Mather Santorum has helped America
don’t waste your time reading the following facts
………………..y Paul Glastris, Ryan Cooper, and Siyu Hu
Passed Health Care Reform: After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance, signed the Affordable Care Act (2010). It will cover 32 million uninsured Americans beginning in 2014 and mandates a suite of experimental measures to cut health care cost growth, the number one cause of America’s long-term fiscal problems.
Passed the Stimulus: Signed $787 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in 2009 to spur economic growth amid greatest recession since the Great Depression. Weeks after stimulus went into effect, unemployment claims began to subside. Twelve months later, the private sector began producing more jobs than it was losing, and it has continued to do so for twenty-three straight months, creating a total of nearly 3.7 million new private-sector jobs.
Passed Wall Street Reform: Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (2010) to re-regulate the financial sector after its practices caused the Great Recession. The new law tightens capital requirements on large banks and other financial institutions, requires derivatives to be sold on clearinghouses and exchanges, mandates that large banks provide “living wills” to avoid chaotic bankruptcies, limits their ability to trade with customers’ money for their own profit, and creates the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (now headed by Richard Cordray) to crack down on abusive lending products and companies.
Ended the War in Iraq: Ordered all U.S. military forces out of the country. Last troops left on December 18, 2011.
Began Drawdown of War in Afghanistan: From a peak of 101,000 troops in June 2011, U.S. forces are now down to 91,000, with 23,000 slated to leave by the end of summer 2012. According to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, the combat mission there will be over by next year.
Eliminated Osama bin laden: In 2011, ordered special forces raid of secret compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, in which the terrorist leader was killed and a trove of al-Qaeda documents was discovered.
Turned Around U.S. Auto Industry: In 2009, injected $62 billion in federal money (on top of $13.4 billion in loans from the Bush administration) into ailing GM and Chrysler in return for equity stakes and agreements for massive restructuring. Since bottoming out in 2009, the auto industry has added more than 100,000 jobs. In 2011, the Big Three automakers all gained market share for the first time in two decades. The government expects to lose $16 billion of its investment, less if the price of the GM stock it still owns increases.
Recapitalized Banks: In the midst of financial crisis, approved controversial Treasury Department plan to lure private capital into the country’s largest banks via “stress tests” of their balance sheets and a public-private fund to buy their “toxic” assets. Got banks back on their feet at essentially zero cost to the government.
Repealed “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”: Ended 1990s-era restriction and formalized new policy allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military for the first time.
Toppled Moammar Gaddafi: In March 2011, joined a coalition of European and Arab governments in military action, including air power and naval blockade, against Gaddafi regime to defend Libyan civilians and support rebel troops. Gaddafi’s forty-two-year rule ended when the dictator was overthrown and killed by rebels on October 20, 2011. No American lives were lost.
Told Mubarak to Go: On February 1, 2011, publicly called on Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to accept reform or step down, thus weakening the dictator’s position and putting America on the right side of the Arab Spring. Mubarak ended thirty-year rule when overthrown on February 11.
Reversed Bush Torture Policies: Two days after taking office, nullified Bush-era rulings that had allowed detainees in U.S. custody to undergo certain “enhanced” interrogation techniques considered inhumane under the Geneva Conventions. Also released the secret Bush legal rulings supporting the use of these techniques.
Improved America’s Image Abroad: With new policies, diplomacy, and rhetoric, reversed a sharp decline in world opinion toward the U.S. (and the corresponding loss of “soft power”) during the Bush years. From 2008 to 2011, favorable opinion toward the United tates rose in ten of fifteen countries surveyed by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, with an average increase of 26 percent.
Kicked Banks Out of Federal Student Loan Program, Expanded Pell Grant Spending: As part of the 2010 health care reform bill, signed measure ending the wasteful decades-old practice of subsidizing banks to provide college loans. Starting July 2010 all students began getting their federal student loans directly from the federal government. Treasury will save $67 billion over ten years, $36 billion of which will go to expanding Pell Grants to lower-income students.
Created Race to the Top: With funds from stimulus, started $4.35 billion program of competitive grants to encourage and reward states for education reform.
Boosted Fuel Efficiency Standards: Released new fuel efficiency standards in 2011 that will nearly double the fuel economy for cars and trucks by 2025.
Coordinated International Response to Financial Crisis: To keep world economy out of recession in 2009 and 2010, helped secure from G-20 nations more than $500 billion for the IMF to provide lines of credit and other support to emerging market countries, which kept them liquid and avoided crises with their currencies.
Passed Mini Stimuli: To help families hurt by the recession and spur the economy as stimulus spending declined, signed series of measures (July 22, 2010; December 17, 2010; December 23, 2011) to extend unemployment insurance and cut payroll taxes.
Began Asia “Pivot”: In 2011, reoriented American military and diplomatic priorities and focus from the Middle East and Europe to the Asian-Pacific region. Executed multipronged strategy of positively engaging China while reasserting U.S. leadership in the region by increasing American military presence and crafting new commercial, diplomatic, and military alliances with neighboring countries made uncomfortable by recent Chinese behavior.
Increased Support for Veterans: With so many soldiers coming home from Iraq and Iran with serious physical and mental health problems, yet facing long waits for services, increased 2010 Department of Veterans Affairs budget by 16 percent and 2011 budget by 10 percent. Also signed new GI bill offering $78 billion in tuition assistance over a decade, and provided multiple tax credits to encourage businesses to hire veterans.
Tightened Sanctions on Iran: In effort to deter Iran’s nuclear program, signed Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act (2010) to punish firms and individuals who aid Iran’s petroleum sector. In late 2011 and early 2012, coordinated with other major Western powers to impose sanctions aimed at Iran’s banks and with Japan, South Korea, and China to shift their oil purchases away from Iran.
Created Conditions to Begin Closing Dirtiest Power Plants: New EPA restrictions on mercury and toxic pollution, issued in December 2011, likely to lead to the closing of between sixty-eight and 231 of the nation’s oldest and dirtiest coal-fired power plants. Estimated cost to utilities: at least $11 billion by 2016. Estimated health benefits: $59 billion to $140 billion. Will also significantly reduce carbon emissions and, with other regulations, comprises what’s been called Obama’s “stealth climate policy.”
Passed Credit Card Reforms: Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act (2009), which prohibits credit card companies from raising rates without advance notification, mandates a grace period on interest rate increases, and strictly limits overdraft and other fees.
Eliminated Catch-22 in Pay Equality Laws: Signed Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act in 2009, giving women who are paid less than men for the same work the right to sue their employers after they find out about the discrimination, even if that discrimination happened years ago. Under previous law, as interpreted by the Supreme Court in Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., the statute of limitations on such suits ran out 180 days after the alleged discrimination occurred, even if the victims never knew about it.
Protected Two Liberal Seats on the U.S. Supreme Court: Nominated and obtained confirmation for Sonia Sotomayor, the first Hispanic and third woman to serve, in 2009; and Elena Kagan, the fourth woman to serve, in 2010. They replaced David Souter and John Paul Stevens, respectively.
Good thing he protected the "liberal" seats on the supreme court. It matters so much. Do I need to remind you that the "liberal" seats on the supreme court supported the Kelo vs New London assenting opinion?
NO! Third party politics in America is a waste of time and money.
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Forget the Rigged Elections.
Forget Obama and Romney.
Forget the rest of the Democratic and Republican corporate puppets.
Forget the feel-good mental masturbation of Third Parties.
Our system is broken and cannot be repaired from within.
FOCUS ON REGIME CHANGE.
Running a third party is pointless. Our political system at its core is corrupt because of outside money and bribery. Until we take outside money out of the equation any new party will quickly end up just as corrupt as the current parties(even though I don't believe in the false equivalency of both parties being equally corrupt).
With a vote.
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Only if they are pulling higher than the Republican, I might try to help them get there if they were reasonably close but otherwise I've seen what Republicans can do, I'm not taking any chances.
I've seen what Republicans can do also, they start wars, tap our phones, arrest us without charge or reason, and give our money to corporations.... gosh, that sounds familiar....
I bet you've seen them really close up.
Yes, I have. I've seen plenty of Democrats close up also, I lived in a very Republican community, and identified with them somewhat, until I grew up and realized the left was right about the constitutional abuses of the Bush administration, such as illegal wiretapping, war mongering, bombing random countries, indefinite retention, and the patriot act. Funny thing though, I haven't heard a word from them since sometime in January of 2009. I don't know why...
It should unless you're under about three years old, takes a good two years to get past a tear of Republicans, we got another 12 to go if we stay on course and fight like hell to keep them out, of course we got to get them out of congress too, if we let up and they get back in White House and start appointing judges again well it's over baby. Hang in there though there is hope, we can beat the GOP.
Yep, get rid of the Republicans.... and say good bye to warrantless wiretapping, extrajudicial retention, bombing of other countries, abuse of executive priveledges, you know, all that stuff. Anyone who was born after the Bush administration would have no idea about any of that stuff.
Get rid of the Republicans, that's just a start, of course if people hadn't voted for Nader, there would of been no Bush, and we would still have none of those things, but once you vote Republcan well there's a price to pay and we will be paying for a while the only thing worst would be another Republican, can't imagine all the stuff another would get us into.
Yeah, I bet a Republican president would abuse executive priveledges like crazy. He'd probably extend the existing wars and start bombing other countries. He'd probably keep assassinating people with drone attacks, then sign legislation that allows him to do it to US citizens. He'd probably give our money to corporations that are "too big to fail". He'd probably keep the military budget high and taxes on the rich low.
Good thing we don't have a Republican president
Well we know for sure he would start a few wars, Bush got into two big ones you think Romeny can get us into three? Of course we could stay with the guy who has ended one and is endding another, but nan we should go with the Republican at this rate we will run out of wars in no time.
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You make a great point. Vote D or R and get MORE of the same !!
The day after the election I'll still be breathing oxygen and either Romney or Obama will be President elect./ Those are facts, there are those that deal with reality and get things done and those that stare at their own belly buttons and dream, which one are you?
I must be a dreamer, because I'm sure not voting for a corporate SOB that pushed through NDAA and kills American citizens without a trial or charges, just because THEY labeled them a terrorist. Do you realize the implications of that? Both sides are stripping us of our rights and shredding the Constitution. Could it be that the R's & D's are the terrorists? IMO, supporting either one is like supporting the 1%. The oxygen you're breathing after the elections, may be at your new home in a FEMA camp. They just use the D & R labels to keep us divided ............... and it works well.
You and I have talked before and you know my position. Both sides are corrupt and the system is flawed. Trying to change a corrupt system within that same rigged system is fruitless. It's like having the Mafia regulating criminals!
"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson
We have Sparky and i like you, but until you make the case that Romney won't do those same bad things and more, you are just making a mistake, it is the refusal of those who know the truth to be involved that allow the lairs to run things.
I like you too factsrfun !! Where we disagree (and it's OK to disagree), is that there's a difference between the two political parties. There's not !! Their rhetoric is different but their actions are the same "with every change of ministers". Why wouldn't it be that way ..... they get their money from the SAME PEOPLE. These peoples' (TPTB) goals haven't changed just because political power has shifted...... they just BUY both sides. So, IMO, supporting either side is just like supporting the 1%. I want CHANGE, my friend, not more and more of what we have now.
BTW - Just got an email from Elizabeth Warren calling on Congress to put Wall Street reform back on the agenda and to begin by passing a new Glass-Steagall Act.
Please join us in urging Congress to put Wall Street reform back on the table -- and pass a new Glass-Steagall Act today.
http://act.boldprogressives.org/go/8071?akid=7784.392714.HFwUHU&t=3
Now if Elizabeth Warren was running, I'd reconsider !
Cheers
I am going to post about 55 heroes that I hope will shade your opinion some; you are a ninja and either way the 1% have got trouble on their hands with you.
You have to understand factsrfun, I've always supported the Dems, ALWAYS! I didn't abandon them, they abandoned me. As I stayed left, they moved right. Did you know that Pres.Obama made a request to the Armed Services Committee to INCLUDE the language to indefinitely detain US citizens without trial or charge(NDAA)? The ASC wanted to omit that language but the WH insisted.
Here's Sen. Levin on the senate floor, explaining this fact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmDe3FrOXfc
Bush gives us the Patriot Act and Obama gives us NDAA. Our rights are being taken from us for no apparent reason, other than they can (or a grander scheme?).
Two parties - same goals! They just sling different shit in the name of fighting this trumped up war on terrorism. It's total BS and we're being robbed wasting our money on it.
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
for one to be born, one must die...
If the system falls will the weak or the strong survive? As things degrade will the wealthy not just arm their guards will desperate people not take the money? I might be at odds with most if the goal is remove all authority, and if it is not then it matters who is in charge, I understand there are some who want to take no stand on the hot button issue of taxes, just stick to nebulous stuff like getting money out of politics we are not even allowed to say public funding because that means “two party politics” well I want real changes like getting this debt off our backs and not trading away my retirement to get it, I say let those who benefited from this great economy we built because we were always afraid to raise taxes because it would “hurt the economy” well I say let those who didn’t get hurt when we didn’t raise taxes pick up the credit card bill their boys ran up so they could do things that way, the trickle down never got to the average joe and now they want him to pay the bill.
I totally agree with you on taxes. To stage 2 wars coupled with huge tax cuts for the rich and corporations, for so long, and never considering how to pay for them, was a recipe for disaster. I think that is what took the wind out of my sails in 2010; when the bush tax cuts got extended yet again. I really didn't expect that and was a major turning point for me.
I for one, do not have the goal of removing all authority; simply replacing it with one that is not corrupt and that the people can oversee i.e., Power To The People! Our present government is making unconstitutional laws and I question their motives. Somethings up.
I also don't associate public campaign funding with two party politics. I actually support public funding, because I think it will give other people the chance to engage in politics without having to be rich. I think it would also weed out many of the crooked politicians, because their greedy opportunities and kickbacks would be eliminated (at least legally). It would make room for politicians that actually care about their constituents. But you know me; I'm still plugging for this type of Direct Democracy:
http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx
Although you and I may disagree about certain issues; I believe we are still on the same side and that we are both Patriots and we care deeply for our country. That being said, this songs for you :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYvWAVmT_s
Had to come up here, Sparky, I'm going to tell you one of the "Big True Secrets" (there are still some things I don't want "them" to know I know)
The debt is by design, it is not a "mistake" it does exactly what the 1% wants it to do, that is why they got so up in arms, took the "debt clock" down on Wall-Street when Clinton started paying it down, that would have ruined everything if they hadn't been able to stop that with the huge tax cut. (ps after that extension, I wrote him an ultimatum letter that said either the top rate would be at least 39% by Nov. or he wouldn’t get my vote, he seems to like those so much, did you see Clinton come out and try to save him? Man I wish we had worked harder for Gore, or even Hilary)
I wouldn't look for a vote on tax rates until after the election in the lame duck session, but I think you are right, the debt is by design. By stressing the economy, it makes people more dependent on government, and hence, easier to control. It also allows for the transfer of wealth. Not sure ANY president is much more than a puppet.
It's a grander scheme, I believe. Years ago (according to one of our regular forum members) the Rockefeller Foundation predicted widespread civil unrest, possibly riots, by now. I believe the study was in regards to our economic problems. So, years ago they assumed widespread civil disobedience and since then, they have militarized our police departments, built hundreds of detention centers, purchased hundreds of millions of .40 caliber rounds for the DHS, redefined the US as a 'war zone' and peaceful protesters as terrorists, and have been systematically stripping us of our freedoms and rights. I'd say it reeks of a grander scheme.
I have NO arguments for you. If the American people sit by and accept this and do nothing ......... I'm sorry to say, we deserve it broke off in our ASS !!
OK EVERYONE, I'm reaching through the screen right now and I'm shaking the living piss out of you and SHOUTING
Sorry gnomunny - just venting ..... I feel better now - But I think your right ;(
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Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
And as for censoring your trollish comments? I wish the forum would not as that removes other contributors good material. I would like to see them collapse your comment instead.
I saw and signed that petition yesterday. Yep - keep it in circulation. Good job.
http://act.boldprogressives.org/go/8071?akid=7784.392714.HFwUHU&t=3
Again you counsel OWS protesters that "resistance is futile" and that they only way they can make a difference is by marching meekly into rigged voting machines and pulling the lever for what may or may not be the lesser of two evils. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results is not "getting things done", "factsrfun", it's INSANITY.
Again you read bits and pieces like most cons you just take a few parts mix it up to say what you want, I have been very clear there is a path but only one, we must make the GOP small enough to drown in a bathtub, then we can split the Ds into, that will work, this fight ing the system crap just plays into the hands of the 1% like it did in 2000 when we got the guy that started all this crap.
FactsRFun has his/her facts wrong again: The Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin. You cannot take out one without taking out both. You cannot "be the problem" and "solve the problem" at the same time. And "all this crap" started a long time before 2000. Note the date and content of the PNAC letter to Clinton:
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/13/freedom_to_fascism_redux_a_timeline_of_recent_us_history
A bunch of circular bullshit don't make a fact, you are here for one reason only, defend protect the 1%.
There is nothing "circular" in that article, and the many supporting links it contains like this one are far from "bullshit":
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
Your false accusations destroy your credibility, "FactsRFun".
Yet still you say nothing for me to reply to, you make no case that Romney would somehow be better than Obama or how one of those two will not be President next year, as you have made no case there is nothing to refute.
BTW are you capable of speaking for yourself?
to rg, below...all is lost, all is lost or at least he says so....
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And why would I want to make a case for Romney over Obama - or Obama over Romney - when it is clear that they are both corporate puppets, that American elections are false choices with predetermined outcomes, and the the agenda of the ruling elite will continue to be carried out REGARDLESS of which puppet ends up in the White House?
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/01/04/american_elections_false_choices_hiding_other_false_choices
Your point now being that the 90's were as bad as the 00's?
My point now being that the Democrats are as corporate-controlled and corrupt as the Republicans.
Here's one you missed:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/05/02/475343/why-republicans-love-citizens-united-in-one-chart/
Yes, Citizens United has been a buckraising bonanza for Democrats and Republicans alike, e.g.:
http://obamasuperpac.com/
yeah I hear you say it I just don't see you providing the link to prove it, please provide link proving that Ds oppose public funding for elections with the same zeal as the GOP so that I can be informed too
There is no one best link to show the common ownership - and corruption - of the Democrats and Republicans. but here are some places to get started. Like they say, just "follow the money":
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://influenceexplorer.com/
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I hope the melt the brass down and use it for something useful.
Bushbama traded his Nobel Peace Prize in for a Salesman of the Year trophy from the Military Intelligence Complex:
http://corporategreedchronicles.com/2011/11/18/occupy-australia-bushbama-trades-unearned-nobel-peace-prize-for-salesman-of-the-year-trophy-from-u-s-defense-contractors/
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Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
And as for censoring your trollish comments? I wish the forum would not as that removes other contributors good material. I would like to see them collapse your comment instead.
I think the trick is supporting a candidate that supports OWS, but not necessarily one that comes from a third party. It may be easier to change the democratic party from the inside. If we can rally enough of the nation to vote with OWS the dems would be forced to field candidates that agree with us.
I just feel that it would be easier at this point to change a party that is fairly sympathetic to start with. I acknowledge all the wrong doing ect ect... but still its easier to force the system to work for you than to overhaul it, especially the one we have in america.
No offense here, but baloney.
You think the Dems/Reps are going to change tune 179 degrees from the way they are going? It's about as likely as the Republicans changing 180 degrees. Have the Democrats come out against corporate welfare? Heck no, they accelerated it. Have they come out against the Patriot Act? Heck no, they accelerated it. Have they come out against the wars? Only while it was politically expedient. They have done only the absolute least they could do to placate us, and keep us voting for them like dependent children. It's an act.
yes but OWS does not have enough people to exert political power. We need to stop having this neat little debate club and start boosting numbers. Political power, economic power, power of any kind, come from people
We need to grab their arm and twist. Anyone who will listen, who is willing to vote against the duopoly, should be a friend of the movement. We reject other anti-establishment groups because of silly little differences, limiting our mass appeal. We should be loosely aligned with anyone who will help us get rid of the establishment.
grabbing and twisting sounds to aggressive. We need to coerce them and expose them to our propaganda, we need to convince them. A convinced person will truly be part of the movement. A twisted person will be resentful.
Amendment puts spotlight on Pentagon propaganda.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=propaganda&source=web&cd=18&ved=0CHEQqQIwEQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fwashington%2Fstory%2F2012-05-09%2Fpentagon-propaganda%2F54866434%2F1&ei=alatT_yRBuqY6AH5uenZDA&usg=AFQjCNFfFmlT8xXtBGvukOzfBm1WEVEQRA&cad=rja
absolutely. This includes such institutions as religious groups (who on a fundamental level must agree with our message of equality), any environmental organizations, veterans and soldiers ect ect. I think that we should start with demanding that corporations cannot donate to political campaigns. By donating they are gaining more political representation than the common man or woman. "no taxation without representation!" Its a patriotic rallying cry that we could very well exploit
Ah, you hit upon the unspeakable truth. That fact is exactly what they don't want us to see. Throwing away our vote in the next election is exactly what they (the trolls working the forum) want to convince us to do, in any way they can do it.
Clearly, we can't create a viable third party between now and November, so our political efforts must be defensive in the next election. We must vote out every Republican on the ticket. Only then can we make progress. This is so obvious it shouldn't need saying, but it must be said over and over again, because that is their strategy regarding this movement. The thing they fear most is unity.
GypsyKing, I think you are right. Voting out republicans is an excellent start. But to repeat what I have said above. We need to boost numbers in order to truly gain political power.
Forget the Rigged Elections.
Forget Obama and Romney.
Forget the rest of the Democratic and Republican corporate puppets.
Forget the feel-good mental masturbation of Third Parties.
Our system is broken and cannot be repaired from within.
FOCUS ON REGIME CHANGE.
How are we going to get regime change by forgetting third parties?
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