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Forum Post: women, progress? and the number one job...add to that sue Hardee's and Carls: female cashiers.

Posted 5 years ago on Sept. 9, 2016, 1:27 a.m. EST by elf3 (4203)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement


I'm not sure where we are now. I doubt men have it much better. I can only read this article and think...how little progress has been made. For the majority of women in my country...the whole list is pitiful from1950 to today...cashier being number 2 female job...usually when a women ceases to Be young and cute enough to remain a secretary....and how much has our pay increased with inflation I wonder? The thought that I will somehow accept a woman for president whose thinking ( or actual real behavior and actions like accepting corporate payouts like those from major polluters or insurers that most affects our bodies...and setting up policies outsourcing to predominantly young female slave labor of our sisterhood...or ignoring Rwandan genocide or standing by her her horn dog blow job at work receiving husband) is in line with the men who surround her is a fair deal as if I should be satisfied because the small amount of female ceos and senators have conformed themselves to think and behave like the conscienceless men who dominate industry and government serves to appease us...phht. I declare that using the term admin may be a washing over and phrase to deceive us all into thinking we have somehow progressed. Employment in my country stinks, there is little upward mobility, women are where we have always been...and men seem to be sinking into and perhaps taking over our ranks themselves albeit they are seen as in a temporary state and others blame it on the economy woman seem to be seen as where they are supposed to be at home in the service sector serving as secretaries to a more fortunate mostly male hierarchy. But we are judged on our looks, seen as harlots of the office, commanded to smile twenty times a day, belittled, demoralized, afterall we were born to this station and as it is so we must accept the demands of our " chosen" lifestyle...as if we are strippers, as if we have no rent to pay...as if we are choosing to give up a little corner of ourselves to survive in this world as if work for us is somehow optional and uneeded and some sort of bonus not worthy of a real salary. To that I say we service sector employees must reign in a new era of employment...we must truck in our own unions and resources. We must sue for sexism with quick swift and immediate intolerance of innuendo and sexual inferences. I am not an object...nor am I just a worker. I am above all things a person, a citizen with a supposed voice in my government...and so are you. We must demand an end to the banker boys club and service sector acceptance. So in 2020 if we are still secretaries...shame on every american for a refusal to step up. To the woman mouthing her cheeseburger in those sad and telling ads or serving up her breasts and a smile to men at that so called family restaurant Hooters...we have failed to teach or provide the women of our country a more dignified path...we have lead our women to believe we are objects here to service men and provide as much gratification as the cheeseburger she was consuming...but a mere tool to get men off no more significant than a toy or fancy car. And we go along so we don't seem prudish stuck up or lame...but i have a feeling very few women actually were saying in their heads" yeah ...awesome ad ...go girl!" but silently wondered how many of their male bosses said exactly that...as one of the workers of the number one female job in this nation...secretary.




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[-] 3 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

The people of USA need a 99% centred government - to build the clean industries of the future and to restore pride in their communities and build up their declining public services. Americans need rights and dignity at work, calling time on exploitation and discrimination.

Every single person in the country needs the opportunity of learning in a Free Public Education System to make sure every family and individual has a decent home they can afford, decently paid work and for security and opportunity. This is NOT beyond the wit of The American 99% BUT it does seems beyond the inclination and ideology of The 0.01% Parasite Class and their 1% lackeys. 99% Solidarity to u elf. Viva OWS! Viva The 99%! + fyi ...

Finally, I blame The Hyper-Psycho Crapitalist Cult of ''NEOLIBERALISM'' that is the unspoken, poorly critiqued ideology of The Global 0.01% Parasitic Oligarchy .. but what is it?! Well imagine living in The USSR and NOT having a word for Communism and then please try to consider these important links...

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

Solidarity ...though I have to say all created and perpetuated in great majority...by men. ? As the administrative sector grows I expect without unions men WILL take over as they lose manufacturing work and that the wages will continue to decrease. If you look at payrates for admins have been frozen for fifteen or more years. Even women with degrees are being shuffled into it while they push out the degreeless and aging . While the economy sucks...for all it isn't projected to change for us and it hasn't from 1950 until now.

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

There's just no questioning the truth that so much shit is ''created and perpetuated in great majority...by men'' & as you intuit .. ''without unions men WILL take over as they lose manufacturing work''. Autism is often described as being ''Hyper-Male'' and what we can see is that a lack of empathy and a self-centred personality can rise to the top in an organization - that does not cultivate team work and solidarity. Your points re. the workplace are very strong and Americans need to rediscover Solidarity In The Workplace - as divide and rule is exactly how The 0.01% and their 1% lackeys keep The 99% divided and thus ruled.

Solidarity For #S17 & The 5th OWS Anniversary!

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

Is there such a thing as soft racism? The term soft sexism is bandied about a pushing back of feminist strides...an erasing of important boundary lines. Soft sexism is designed to show women all the types of things that are sexist but not to be taken that way or as seriously as sexism should be...and it widens more and more each year. How open does sexism get to be in my office before I am allowed to be offended or to sue the pants off? Scary.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Soft racism and sexism exist. People start bad stories(rumors) behind other people's back to "stab them in the back" usually to advance their own interests in climbing up the hierarchy. Unfortunately, most people just take the words of their buddies as is rather than refraining from judgment. We no longer teach much critical thinking skill in our schools anymore so we can all be better led by a ring on each of our noses.

Usually the ones most adept at the stabbing game are from the wealthier strata of society or their descendants because for richer people, contacts, connections, paybacks, favors, etc. are all forms of soft power that the richer people often wield and are familiar with. There are school affiliations, fraternities, professional organizations, relatives, friends, colleagues, mentor/protégé, allies, patrons, master/mistress, etc. A simple way to screen out some richer vampires is through their BMI. The rich (old money) tend not to be obese. Imagine Dracula as fat as Santa Claus, funny, isn't it?

The U.S. military-industrial-complex also avails of these connections. It was how the worst spying cases happened through.

Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason. No permission is needed. That's a true beauty of the U.S. legal system. However, whether the case has merits or not, or will be successful will be a different matter. Generally speaking, good and usually expensive attorneys help the case. Money talks and $&£₩ walks.

I'm thinking of the enligtenment coming from That other Orange Juice.

Wealthier people often use the lawsuits as a cudgel. Litigations burn money but the rich have better staying power due to their having more money. Civil lawsuits' end objective is money so the "deep-pocket theory" applies. Sue the one who can potentially pay out the most rather than the most culpable or a reasonably causally connected one.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

My government...industry...all run by men. The greed the lack of empathy the unbridled pigness of everything...Playing field rigged before I got on it...and to put it in clearer terms if an ad used a man in black face there would be riots in the street...the ACLU in an uproar and threatening suit for hate speech...but a woman giving a cheeseburger a virtual blow job...and somehow we asked for it ? I can think lots of blacks may take a large amount of money to do an ad selling out their race...but it would not be equated that other bkacks thought it ok to dress up in black face and sell out his people...but as a women I am told it is reflective of our liberation and somehow representative of my choices.whaa yeah ...equating that one woman sold out and blew a cheeseburger to choice and freedom that also represents me....this country is fuck backwards

[-] 1 points by ImNotMe (1488) 5 years ago

''The Undeniable Rape Culture Of Donald Trump'', by Eve Ensler:

Solidarity in outrage elf - with a recommendation to read this ^article^.

spero meliora ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23474) 5 years ago

Couldn't count up how many times I have felt sexually harassed, to be honest. Sometimes blatantly, sometimes subtly, and sometimes not directed at me at all, but within my ear and vision, and just as bothersome. It's disgusting how women are treated and it's disgusting that many women, themselves, perpetuate it, because, like you say, they fear being considered uptight or prudish.

I think this all stems from capitalism, personally. From a society where people are atomised and alienated from one another. Where sex has no meaning beyond the thing itself. Where jobs exist only to enrich the capitalist. And, where consumerism is the religion. Anything to get you to want that burger.

Private property is the god and women are viewed as property, by many, (though certainly not all), men. Women put themselves out there as property, too, and in my opinion are just as complicit in all of this. It is a societal problem deeply rooted in superficiality, materialism and consumerism with one goal: profit for the wealthy and corporations.

Hang in there girl and stay true to yourself. You are the sane one in the room. We may never get rid of employment at will and sexism in the office and low pay and an unfair education system and high cost housing, all of the stresses that this neoliberal world sends our way, but we can be true to ourselves and live our lives how we want to as much as we can, and look in the mirror and feel good about who we are and what we project to our own children for it is the children of today who I believe will turn neoliberalism on its head. Peace and Solidarity, elf.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

Thanks bw all good points...but also again I must add our system was created and is perpetuated by mostly men...though my s.o. also added how many wives enjoy the riches of their husbands capital...so many may be guilty by association I suppose.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

Here's an area that I do regret not having been more outspoken or forthright about. I experienced these, too, but they caused nothing with lasting damage, I think. I recall when the pubescent teenage babysitter took all our clothes off and we faced each other stark naked, I felt strangely awkward but I was fascinated by the differences. I didn't know then that it could be a form of sexual harassment from the babysitter because I was only four years old.

Under the broad Strips and the bright Stares, we could see it, answer the question (o'er the land of...) in the affirmative, and when the door was knocked, the babysitter broke a handheld mirror, tiptoing trying to find out o'er the windowsill who was outside through its reflections.

Another time, at the playground, a neighborhood bully was pulling the pants off of a "sissy" (boy) and his slightly older elder brother went to his defense. I didn't do or say anything as a bystander so I came to regret it. It bothered me. I think it's because of the disparate power of the parties. The elder brother lost his pants, too.

I now understand that our behaviors can make some other people feel harassed or awkward whether we intend to or not. An apology is in order whenever another person feels uneasy or offended.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23474) 5 years ago

Well, grapes, I think there is a difference between sheer perversion, like you experienced as a child (and you are not alone in that, I assure you), and sexual superficiality or objectification of women. They are related in a way, but they are vastly different as well, because one is not an accepted norm and the other is. An accepted norm is much more difficult to combat. For instance, there are no laws in place to prevent that commercial from being seen by young girls who will learn from it that looking like Kate Upton is the ideal they need to aspire to, and sorry young lady, you may never measure up.

But, in the end, laws are not the answer. Changing an economic system that devalues our humanity and leaves us alienated and void of true meaning is what we need to do. Material goods and looks cannot be the be all, end all of our lives.

And, also, I think men suffer the same as women when it comes to objectification which you kind of pointed out. It's just a little more obvious with women as the media uses women's sexuality so much more often in advertising (the scourge of humanity).

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

For my babysitter.

Joe DiMaggio, come back! What's waffle? Honey pie?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

You're correct that there's a vast difference between my experience and yours or elf's. Mine were one-time incidents but I'm pretty sure that for both you and elf the awkwardness and stresses have never ended. It's much worse for elf if it takes place in a work setting. Persistent sexually charged hostile atmosphere at work is a form of sexual harassment.

In my case, the Eden incident was likely due to the babysitter's hormones cranking up wild around puberty. There was no physical contact between our bodies but even the eye contact left a lasting memory. I don't think there was any lasting damage aside from a precocious orifice curiosity and heightened sensitivity.

In the playground pants-off incident, I think we are far too uptight about sex and gender roles for our own good. There's really nothing wrong with sissies and tomboys. The silly fight about bathroom policies makes no sense. Ask how many people have segregated bathrooms in their homes. In some cultures, there were even no segregated Public lavatories for males and females. I had lived with co-ed bathrooms and it just felt weird initially but no one really knew much about genitalia once the bathroom stall's door had been closed. Showering took a bit more planning and that was it - not much different from brothers and sisters in the same home. A simple solution to sex/gender mishmash is to provide some unisex single occupancy bathrooms.

Our economy's insidious acceptance of using sex for selling is deplorable. It confuses our primal drives for food, sex, and social status by linking them together haphazardly. It's true that far too many of our younger women try to emulate the sexy celebrities to no avail and waste an enormous amount of time, money, and energy pursuing a mirage: painting nails, catwalking on stilettos, getting body piercings to wear blings, getting tattoos, wearing barely-there clothings, etc. Most of these are rather fleeting or even worse yet too permanent. This is superficiality being sold for profits.

Objectification occurs when we have no concern for others' psyches. If we value the brains as the repositories of sexiness, we may have less problem with the externalization of sex to sell for profits.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

I think what you are saying is we shouldnt see gender?...i shudder a bit at that it is akin to Bill OReilly and being "raceblind" Our bodies represent our personal space in this world when they are violated...it causes deep harm. We have a right to keep our bodies private and not to have others violate the sanctity of that most personal space. Corporation/ Advertisers seem to be making women's bodies a public domain with their messages as well as much of the music and gaming industry..which is how they view their clients...public property. We as a citizenry on the whole lose more and more privacy each year...this gives a sort if ownership..doesn't it...why do we feelso violated when someone reads our diary. ...spies on us and listens to our phone calls...i think because they have taken ownership of something we deem very private...I think an important point i have to make though sexual harassment is not just an "obvious persistent "sexually charged thing...women are sensitive and i dont mean emotionally i mean their intuition and senses are more acute than most mens...this has been studied scientifically...and I can tell you when a beautiful woman walks in the room and a group of men are all elbow elbow wink wink....we are by our natures tuned into that...we are aware though we often pretend we are not...but the message is...that our bodies our constantly up for group evaluation and scoring. Just to start. It also forces woman into a competition she did not sign up for...we are judged for our competence often by our appearance that is true for every gender...but for women, it is the main way...looks are a lottery so if you haven't got them or dont measure up to an airbrushed photoshop who caters willingly to the ideals of men...as a woman it can often feel as though you are in a caste system based on your ability to get a ten by the men running most jobs aka ability to eat and feed your kids work and make a paycheck...aka corporations..you know those same guys putting out those ads you may even "werk" (work and twerk) for them...is that sue worthy...all you gals working for Hardees and Carls serving the actual burgers for minimum wage subjected to the obvious sexist culture of your employer what do your male coworkers think what attitude does this set for them against female coworkers? Gloria??? Where are you? I smell a very big sexual harassment precedent. Sue !! Thats the only way to be sure...they will get the message. The sooner we all realize the body is temporary and there is more to a person than a physical construct the better we will all be. I have Never heard a group of women judging male coworkers..looks..or basically " fuckability" or if he is " office hot"...it is inappropriate ...men get away with it because men run things and apparently allow eachother to be inappropriate.what it really represents is power. It's a mans world Isnt about time we make it a woman's too? Not to the exclusion of transgender ...certainly there is much discrimination there too...but I think for similar if not the same reasons. Women and transgender bodies and thus our existence and lives seem to be thrust into somesort of public domain...that screams of ownership.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 4 years ago

"It's a mans world Isnt about time we make it a woman's too?"

Yes, absolutely, but not just a man-to-woman swap creating a matriarchy instead of the existing patriarchy. A matriarchy will probably be just as oppressive as a patriarchy; I suspect as I had grown up in a matriarchy. Prejudice is wrong wherever it comes from, a man or a woman. I think most -ism's are very stupid so sexism is certainly not an exception.

I observed that men and women are generally more civil in the presence of the opposite sex so if civility is desired, we should promote co-education, co-habitation, etc. Single-sexed groups tend to achieve extremes more often, both for goodness and badness. If we have mechanisms in place to check the badness, single-sexed groups can be great, too, due to the freedom from the sexual distractions of the opposite sex. "Out of sight often means out of mind." We are all creatures of hormones, especially so during adolescence.

I was a boy scout and it was certainly a single-sexed group. Girls had their troop, too. We did different things from the girls, I think. It's best if men and women view and respect each other as complementary partners, not identical but substantially equal and capable. The arithmetic should be 1+1=<3.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 4 years ago

'I have Never heard a group of women judging male coworkers..looks..or basically " fuckability" or if he is " office hot".'

Women in a group judged a male worker, not exactly on looks but another attribute. "Fuckability" mattered to women, too. Such a girly talk required a rare contingent of women working together, with one woman already particularly dominant as a matriarch egging them on the evaluation of performance. Girls are girls, too, as boys are boys with 'locker-room' talks.

Sexual desires have been built into human bodies right from conception and are primal, if not the most primal.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

When I was just out of high school one of my 1st jobs was as a teller at a bank = Me and a lot of single women! WoooHoooooo

Let me tell you right now - that they could talk dirty like you would not believe.

They proved it to me on purpose as I had said that guys really abuse women with a lot of our macho BS talk - they laughed at me and said that men weren't even good amateurs at talking dirty.

They made me laugh long and hard and helplessly as I became very enjoyably shocked and embarrassed.

The main difference between men and women and talking dirty they told me - was - that women were not as loud about it nor as public and that women were more imaginative as well as creative - I had to agree.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 4 years ago

Aren't we all truly blessed to have the female sex with us, bestowing such grace, beauty, love, and mercy to our worldly existence? I say yes! Rubber duckies, anyone?

The objectification of female bodies is wrong, especially in a male-dominant power relationship. Commoditizing females degrades women and girls and borders on being a sacrilege.

I really don't like the negative connotations attached to certain male/female terms due to our society's being largely a patriarchy, such as wizardry v. witchcraft, master v. mistress, stud v. slut, etc.

I also don't like mother nature's saving a tiny little bit on the plumbing cost and making us associate excretion with sex so talking sex becomes talking 'dirty'. I testify that the image of a sexual act flashed across my mind when I was stripped naked as a four-years-old preschooler by and opposite my nude pubescent babysitter. I could immediately see how the puzzle pieces fit together and suddenly felt (and voiced) the desire to 'urinate'(inside of her) which was the closest vocabulary a four-years-old could muster (she fetched my Mom's (damn my sticky chewing gum!) hand-held mirror instead of going with my pee-nuts' idea).

It's most unfortunate that sex and excretion are so confusingly and intimately mixed up in our minds, our languages, and our cultures leading to so much embarrassment and shock. 》Das 'Geschlecht' ist nicht schlecht. Der Darm ist 'gut'.《

Mother nature's sharing the plumbing for the sublime with the inglorious was a mistake that lasts.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

With modern medical technology, both gender and sex have become far more malleable than before. Our social norms and customs need to flex a bit to accommodate the new reality. In my playground pants-off incident, there was no need for the neighborhood bully to enforce gender/sex role conformity on the "sissy." As long as he uses the bathroom stall by himself, no one even needs to know what his genitalia are. There was no need for violence.

Everyone needs personal private space and our bodies must have its sanctity respected and protected. It's good if everyone stays away from the ganged-up elbow elbow wink wink. I know how disconcerting being the object of that can be even though it's generally considered positive for a man to be lusted after. The very act of judging borders on being presumptuous.

I very much like New York's keeping-to-oneself social habit. It makes personal private space very flexible. People here seem to be generally non-judgmental. It helps social harmony in high population density areas. We have our parallel universes to live in. It's not all a bed of roses though because in one of my turbulent teenage years, I was awfully depressed and I felt terribly lonesome although I was surrounded in a subway car by so many people. It was like being stranded in the sea surrounded by water but having found not a single drop of water to drink.

I noticed that how much physical private space one needs is often culturally determined. City people tend to be more comfortable than country people are when they are packed close together. Most people are just neutral and benign, in my cityfolk's view, so I did not feel much stress with many people around.

You nailed it that power is the main thing involved in sexual harassment. It may even extend to our trading relationship with other countries. The smaller the ratio of net trade deficit to trade volume, the more mutually beneficial the trade is. If you don't need the job as much as the employer doesn't need you to do the job, the employment relationship will be more equitable.

I hope "werk" is not a pun on the German "Werk" meaning work, not necessarily involving twerking.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4203) 5 years ago

No I meant it seems women must now twerk for a living. Power is behind our whole system...but as the economy goes so do women. Wallstreet wants to f**ck us. Literally. They want us on all fours earning our supper. Try watching how an executive treats a secretary in any office anywhere. Again I'm talking about sexism as a culture ...our entire culture is extremely sexist for women. I don't feel like you get that ...are you bad at darts? Wallstreet is in charge of our culture...if you didn't already realize. They control all the media and spit out billions in ads reflecting their attitudes toward women. It is pretty blaring I think. Anyway it is sad ws is pushing everyone out of NY. Prices...greed. and making female bodies the new culturally accepted public property of men everywhere. Not to mention using young girls in factories to slave make their products. I'm not buying what ws is selling. I reject it...I will get others to reject it...I will kepp on keeping on...because I don't know...I guess I'm a fighter. So if you don't think about sexism as a man...you just could be if not inadvertently a ws boys boy. Buying up what they are selling. Which is power and making females submit.

I get what you are saying about gender there are lots of articles about ws ads hyper masculinizing boys and hyperfemalizing young girls sending these messages out through kids movies and toys...trying to draw lines in the sand with no room for anything in between ...did I mention ws is disgusting?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

My reference to "Werk" in German was due to my wanting to point out that other efforts have failed only because of a foreign language blindspot. It was difficult to sell a car named "nova" in Spanish-speaking countries.

Our advertisements are out of hand. Maybe we do need to tuck them in some(foreigners can perceive some of our rotten things better, I admit) on a community-standard basis. Another option is to teach media-bias literacy and critical-thinking-skill courses in school to inoculate our children starting at a young age.

Some people in social media were saying that the humidity at World Trade Center 9/11 memorial was 30% around the time Clinton stumbled, according to the National Weather Service(NWS) but it was closer to 75% to 80% according to super-local data. It could be a deliberate political manipulation or NWS simply did not have the resolution needed because a wind arrived shortly there. I agree with media account that the weather was humid.

In some areas, I'm culturally deprived. I had almost completely stopped eating redmeats decades ago(alright my "state secret" is leaked out but no one'll be sent to jail) so "Hardee's" just didn't ring a bell. If you had mentioned "Texass cow pies" (DK had invented "Texass"), it would have registered much better.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5232) 5 years ago

It's really bad that women must now twerk for a living. The power oppression demanding twerking is disgusting. I probably don't feel the pervasive sexism as much as or as deeply as you do, due to our gender difference. As I first started out as a teenager, working on the streets of Manhattan, I had experienced what might be sexism. A couple of women walked past me, giggled, and talked sheepishly between themselves. After receiving a proposition(no, I was not in that business), I became ever hypersensitized about giggling women behind my back. I didn't know whether they were intentionally trying to play me or not.

I suspect that we may very well have a problem with pervasive sexism because an Indian was disturbed by Manhattan's sexy ad's. I felt at the time that it might just be India's treating women as private properties, not to be displayed titillatively in public as accoutrements of merchandise. Perhaps India's women are raped by male strangers more frequently in public than our women or we just don't care(such as at colleges and universities).

I say that we and Indians have big differences in sexual customs and practices. The feelings of disgust may very well be mutual so a "wall" can help to reduce potential conflicts.

When serving the goddess of justice, I prefer not to play darts. I beat around the bush to cover the ground of evidence first. Over the years, I have discovered that Everyone is fallible so before the blindfolded goddess stabs with her sword, I should examine the evidence first to reduce the error rate. The goddess of justice prefers her supplicants to proceed at this deliberate pace: Andante, Andante.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4203) 4 years ago

And I'll be fucking damned before our new labor secretary will be the Hardee's CEO...every woman and the men who love them must violently revolt ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Support the dream and help make the impeachment of Drumpf a reality! https://t.co/2u6ppCaWWW

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 4 years ago

Didn't that asshole just withdraw from receiving the appointment because of unpaid back taxes on his illegal domestic worker?