Forum Post: Without a leader
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 3:03 a.m. EST by ddyer0617
(41)
from Salisbury, MD
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Without a leader of this cause there is no unity, without unity there is no hope for this cause. The supporters are viewed as rioters and degenerates and it seems now that from state to state people are viewing this as a nuisance rather than a well thought out and and educated protest. I agree that our government has been responsible for a lot of the problems that we are facing in this new era, but what solution are we presenting? What results are we getting? Is it really about protesting businesses and if so then why are businesses at fault? Businesses and corporations aren't the ones driving us into debt, cutting down jobs, or using tear gas and rubber bullets. Businesses are making the money to help drive this economy. Its like attacking the cashier of a store that is following the Manager's policy. I was very much in support of this movement and very much hoping for change to come to this country via this movement but now it is lacking direction and resolve. It has turned into a sit in across the nation, pulling police away from protecting cities and their citizens instead of a rally taking any real action. I hate to be the person to say this bluntly but if this movement doesn't find its way to Washington and the steps of the Capital, the White House, and the Supreme Court then it is going to die with no results. If you think I am talking out of my ass or just being negative then answer me this, how long has this been going on and what progress has been made?
You know what? I thought that was the problem at first but there is a mix of America in this forum alone. Liberals and conservatives. Both trolling but there IS a dialog going on in most places. If there were a clear message then there might not be any room for discussion. People would feel obligated to defend all of it even if they only believed some of it.
On the other hands results are important but you would really need to be 99% to get things done in Washington. At this moment we're split.
Form a general assembly of the internet?
I'm no liberal whiner or conservative wacko. Anybody here who refuses to pander is a troll.
Its too bad to waste this entire effort, but its way off the track. I'll do my best to give it direction. Its only America at stake. If I didn't like America right now I'd move to sicily.
A general assembly would be the way to go but it still results in a lack of leadership figure for this cause, be it one person or a council of people. Right now if you were to look at this movement as a war, the Occupy movement is like a militia, all fighting but no unity. Look at every single other major movement in our country's history and you will find a person that those movements rallied behind, this is the first where there is no one to look to for strength, courage, direction, and focus. There is no playbook, no plan, and by statute no goal. I mean Occupy all you want but sitting around in public complaining about the problems with signs makes you a homeless person with an agenda, not a revolutionist.
This may the the next Club of Honest Whigs...
That remains to be seen but we are having a conversation.
The general assembly would really only serve to gather our collective interests. Conservatives and liberals finding common ground without the interference of the media or politicians. It might turn into a complete failure or conservatives would throw their hands in the air or vs\vs.
Screw all conservatives. They are so stupid it is dumb to waste 1 minute with anyone of them. They are only about 25% to 35%. I would deport all conservatives and make room for Mexicans who are treated like shit in Mexico.
Sudan would be a good spot to deport all the conservatives.
LOL... cute. I saw you in concert at the Beale Street Blues fest in '99. So I must ask... When did you grow a vagina?
What kind of creeps do what Paterno did?
There is a reason that Paterno decided to not help the kids who Sanduskey would molest after the incident told to him by his assistant. This is the American culture. While Americans wave their flag and go to church, they observe and protect child molesters.The victims of sex crimes are destroyed when they report the crime in America. It happened to Casey Anthony when her father squirmed and lied under oath when he was being examined by defense counsel Baez.
If I was falsely accused by my daughter I would attack. I wouldn't dodge questions. American courts are still practicing the art of witch hunts. No innocent person pays off the accuser or pleads guilty for crimes they didn't commit. If Paterno is charged for his crime, it is less likely this type of thing will happen again. When privileged people know they will be held to account for their crimes, a person like Strauss-Kahn is less likely to be set free after he raped the hotel maid.
The idea that any allegation of past conduct of the victim will protect the perpetrator is irrational and bizarre, but the establishment accepts crimes by the privileged. None of this is secret and its accepted as normal.
Americans are so arrogant that they prefer to not know the truth when they believe molesters and traitors would embarrass them. That's exactly what Michael Moore stated during his question period at the Miami Book Expo. "I don't want to believe that," he replied about the 9/11 Bush attack. The victims cover up to protect the perpetrators. That is irrational and only creeps would lack the dignity to demand justice from the obvious perpetrators.
I do not think this movement is anywhere near ready to talk to any form of political power in its present state. I think this movement needs to gather first and find out what it exactly is that they want, how they want to go about getting it, and who the ambassador(s) is/are going to be in order to begin negotiating with the government. People fail to see that this is what our country is about, the people seeing that change is needed and then they need to petition the government for it. That's why we have a democracy.
Democracy run by the privileged because their media has put everybody in a trance. Consider why you vote for people taking bribes. I assume 98% of Americans aren't stupid. I know they are in a trance.
The movement knows exactly what it wants and how to get it. It will never negotiate with the government because it does not believe in power struggles. It is an anarchy.
An anarchy can only do a hostile takeover. So in other words we won't negotiate with the government that really is the only body that can implement the changes to which we are Occupying for...dude just shut up you're now hitting new lows of intelligence. Furthermore, negotiation isn't power struggle, its called calling for peace through a meeting and working as a unified country to make it work. Without everyone working together, the 99%, the 1%, and the government nothing will come of this and nothing will change. That's why I said no leader equals no change Because it yields no organization, which introduces derelicts like yourself to just sit there with your finger in your nose and your thumb in your ass saying duhhhhhhhhhh...
There are different types of anarchies. Not all believe in hostile takeovers. Occupy is a pacific anarchy. Why not read about them and learn.
Now I got it so were just going to sit around and do nothing but complain until it changes....sounds effective. Being targets for gas grenades, beanbag shotguns, and rubber bullets not to forget training dummies for cops and their batons sounds like a good way to get the ball rolling. Maybe next month they can actually start sentencing the people they arrest so that way everyone can sit in prison and wait for that change to come. It will probably fall into some sort of cup or box since you know after they get of of jail they wont have a home. Duhhhhhhhhhhhh
You can certainly complain about it, but the only people who will hear you on this forum is other complainers like yourself. You're just wasting time. You should go complain on site right beside the protesters. That way, the media and the world will see you. What you are doing now is simply repeating the hundreds of posts that came before you. You do realize you are making no change right? What you are saying has been said for already a month now in these forums. No change. Waste of time. Who are you talking to? Only me...
Again, asking for a leader in a general assembly or in an anarchy is antithetical. There is a very structured and clear playbook. The problem is you do not wish to educate yourself and understand what this playbook is.
The problem isn't that I don't care to educate myself on the playbook, the problem is that the playbook is insipid and the fact that you aren't really listening to what I'm saying: This WILL NOT work in its current model. Every cause needs 3 things to work: a leader, followers, and a precise and intelligent plan of action. I know what the OWS plan is Thrasymaque, I am clearly stating that there will be nothing that will come of it because it has no direction. If you think I'm dumb just scroll through the forums on this website and tell me that this movement should be taken seriously.
I am listening to what you are saying, the problem is your idea lacks creativity. There are a hundred other posters who asked the same thing. I am trying to save you time. It won't happen. Occupy will never have leaders, so it doesn't help to post about that here like a zillion others did before you.
I don't support Occupy for the very reason that I don't care for anarchies. But, I'm not going to complain again and again at a car company because I went them to make rubber boots instead. It doesn't make sense. You don't make sense.
The occupy movement is not an anarchy. It has a structure other than the one you are used to. a structure that has failed. the occupy is using another system because we don't want the same vulnerabilities as the present system has. leaders can be controlled or act for personal gain. there are no leaders in the occupy movement to be bought out, manipulated or controlled. there are no leaders who would have self-interests above the general good. the occupy movement would not be able to exist and be self-sustaining and continue to grow if was an anarchy (as you put it). but, you are blind and keep parroting the same thing over and over. No leaders = anarchy. you're an idiot
You do not understand Occupy if you do not believe it is an anarchy. By definition, no leaders = anarchy. Anarchy comes from the greek word anarkhos 'an' without, 'arkhos' leader. There are many different types of anarchies. Every system without leaders is an anarchy. Occupy is designed by Mr. Graeber in the pacifico anarchic tradition. Asking Occupy to have leaders is antithetical to the movement. It makes no sense.
You say I don't make sense yet you are the person who is constantly trying to make some sort of back country metaphor every time you post. A bee making honey, a car company making boots...really man get with it. The only person not making any sense is you, as for my statement of without leadership this cause is pointless, I'll just go ahead and take the last 300 years of protests or organized revolts as my evidence to my point. The idea of getting together and forming a document in person after careful consideration doesn't need to be original or creative or anything it only has a history of working unlike this idea of anarchy which is my point in the first place. To be on here to argue makes you a troll...and therefore a traitor to the cause because I don't take you seriously, just like anyone else.
I'm trying to help you understand. You are asking Occupy to be something that it isn't and never will be. You are doing this because you fail to understand the structure of Occupy and what it wants to achieve. Like the hundreds of posters before you who made the same proposition, you are absolutely and utterly wasting your time. You're like a Christian telling muslims they should follow the Bible instead of the Qur'an. The fact that you can't see this bewilders me. The fact that your are rehashing an idea that has been presented countless times makes me wonder if you are new on these boards. Why don't you educate yourself and read up on the goals of Occupy and its structure. If you don't like it, you can start your own movement. What is the point of telling a bee you want milk? A bee makes honey, not milk. Anarchies DO NOT have leaders by definition.
I wish you would stop claiming to know what Occupy is based on a few pieces of evidence about some of the folks who ignited the spark, and your ongoing extrapolation and obsession with anarchists. Nobody told me I was an anarchist. Nobody set an anarchist agenda that we follow. We are individuals with grievances.
The majority of protestors are likewise non-ideological, or progressive, or libertarian people with real grievances, who've found an outlet and hopefully a mechanism for change. We each have our own goals, but to be heard is at the top of the list. We are not cogs in some anarchist master plan. We are here for our own reasons. Your conspiratorial ramblings on anarchy are getting old. Speak for yourself, not the movement - from which, by the way, you've repeatedly distanced yourself.
You have no right.
Occupy is structure as an anarchic movement. The idea of occupying is anarchic. The idea of major strikes is anarchic. The idea of direct democracy with general assemblies is anarchic. The brains, David Graeber, is an anarchic who structured the movement with his anarchic theories. The symbolism Occupy uses is anarchic.
It doesn't matter what the individual ideologies of the protesters are, the structure of Occupy remains an anarchy. If you don't know this, it is because you haven't read about Occupy.
BTW - The reason I don't support Occupy is because I don't believe in anarchies. I agree with their complaints, just not with the anarchic methods used to achieve change.
Read this for more info - It's a Great article.
There are no "brains" on a daily basis. The inspiration was and is the reality of our situation. Yes some various elements provided a spark, but this was coming one way, or another. In fact, it began as little more than a flash mob. Yes it was brewing for some time, as any protest movement does, but it is not the outcome of any master plan.
If all protests and strikes are anarchic then you should retroactively apply your criticism to the labor movement of the turn of the last century or the civil rights movement or the anti-war movement of the 60s-70s. There is little difference.
The focus on non-hierarchical democratic assemblies was a concession to the many disparate ideas and general distrust for existing institutions - all of which have failed us. We are not looking for an anarchic overthrow of government, but have simply chosen to organize the protest in such a way as to not empower or provide political capital to existing corrupt structures.
You can read all you like, but you don't know us. You are all theory and assumptions.
Yeah, don't worry, been watching this guy. Deep psyops, but too deep, ya know? Over the head of most people anyway. Definitely not a friend.
If you read the article you will see there is not really a conflict of interest. They support Occupy, and give a lot of space to David Graeber to explain the movement.
There is a brain that created the structure you are following. His name is David Graeber. He is the anarchist who came up with the idea of using direct democracy and occupying. No matter what you decide in general assemblies and what your views are, the fact remains that you are using direct democracy, occupying, asking for general strikes, etc... These are all staples of anarchism.
Why not read the link I posted above. It is very well written and you will learn a lot from it.
He is not what we're about, and anarchism is not a tactic. It's a philosophy of (non)government. You're just pigeon-holing for your own sense of intellectual control.
ngentot ko
Don't provide an anarchist source to prove the movement is anarchist. Every anti-establishment, progressive, and libertarian group would like to claim credit and ownership.
I know many original occupiers and not one of them has ever mentioned Graeber, and very few ever heard of AdBusters.
It's not a red herring at all. It explains exactly why you have no clear demand (which by the way I find is a genius idea). It explains why you were able to grow so big so fast. The structure of your movement is extremely important. David Graeber is a genius for having thought of this. AdBusters wanted a traditional protest, he changed all that.
I don't have an agenda.
The protesters are indeed making decisions now, but they are doing it inside the framework designed by Mr. Graeber. This is an important fact to understand. Very important.
It changes nothing. No forms have been decided. No governing philosophy is set in stone. This is how we've organized our movement, for better or worse, it has nothing to do with what we want for our government or society. This is one big red herring, and you are transparent even if your full agenda remains obfuscated.
Mr. Graeber is the brain behind Occupy and the movement follows his ideals to this day. So, if you support Occupy you support his theories by definition. Nice try for the comeback though.
You have no right.
The brain behind occupy is the collective mind of every dedicated protestor out there day after day while you sit on your ass and analyze and judge. Fuck off.
The article I linked is from Business Week, not an anarchist source. Next time, please take the time to read. Right on the top, it links you to the original article. You have to make a small effort in life. Here it is in Business Week:
Business Week Version of a Wonderful Article On Occupy
The reason I linked to that anarchist website is because the article is one page thus making it easier to read. This is a wonderful article. It is very well written and comes from a top source, Business Week. You should read it. Make a coffee, then read. You will learn something.
Graeber is the anarchist source to whom I was referring.
No conflict of interest there.
Conflict of interest? They support Occupy in the article!!! Read it, why remain uneducated?
The fact that you continue to do the same makes you an ignorant fool. I simply say that a movement needs a leader and you try and tell me that OWS will never have one. I tell you that that means that this movement will not work, and you say still wont have a leader. I'm not arguing whether or not this movement will have a leader, only simply stating that without one there is not point and you can see it everyday on the news. The story isn't about the movement or anything that its accomplishing, only about the police using tear gas and rubber bullets to disperse crowds or like in Oakland where people are dying. You just want to continue to say "you're like a fly swatter company trying to make a TV" which doesn't make you original, witty, or creative, it makes you a moron. I have read up on the goals of OWS and last I checked it was still up in the air as to what was going down on the final document. Like I said before this movement will be forgotten, just like Joe the Plumber. Being people yelling about change saying "I want more money and our government doesn't work right let's just sit here and picket until it changes", doesn't create the environment for change. I may be just talking to a wall (which there is strong evidence for considering that you haven't really said anything worth reading thus far) but I am glad I said my piece. I was already called crazy and stupid for saying a year ago that people were going to get tired of our government screwing up and it will eventually cause chaos and hey look at the website we're all on. I can only hope that this group which is thus far no more than a international mob finally organizes to a better degree so it can move forward with it's intention to change the world.
You should read this article if you are interested in learning about Occupy.
How occupy began and what it is.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=getting%20honey%20from%20a%20cow&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmakeprojects.com%2FProject%2FYour-Own-Honey-Cow%2F539%2F1&ei=vkm-Ts7xNKLb0QGbrYW4BA&usg=AFQjCNHcUSvyPcJIdQO1v_2mxg2ss4YjbQ&cad=rja
sure and you can read this
If you have been part of this site for a month, why repeat the same ideas that have already been discussed numerous times? What's the point of that? Why not attempt a go at an original idea?
Why not educate yourself? Why choose to remain in the dark about Occupy? Your complaints will be stronger if you understand what you are up against.
I already get it, I just thought that it was funny that I knew exactly where to get that link. You probably didn't know that bee farms actually used honey cows did you? And I have been a part of this site for a month and payed attention to this movement since the beginning. I already said I really couldn't care a less about your opinion on the matter. I was just stating a fact, just as you stated, well a prediction per-say. there is no telling as of now if this movement will ever have a leadership figure. If it stays an anarchy than you are correct in saying it will not; however, this does not change the fact that without leadership this movement is disorganized and without focus and that there is an overwhelming chance that it will fade away making little more than a paper cut on the hand of the government. (<<<<FYI a proper metaphor)
Look to Canada.
No progress. What kind of creeps do what Paterno did? http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
There is a reason that Paterno decided to not help the kids who Sanduskey would molest after the incident told to him by his assistant. This is the American culture. While Americans wave their flag and go to church, they observe and protect child molesters.The victims of sex crimes are destroyed when they report the crime in America. It happened to Casey Anthony when her father squirmed and lied under oath when he was being examined by defense counsel Baez.
If I was falsely accused by my daughter I would attack. I wouldn't dodge questions. American courts are still practicing the art of witch hunts. No innocent person pays off the accuser or pleads guilty for crimes they didn't commit. If Paterno is charged for his crime, it is less likely this type of thing will happen again. When privileged people know they will be held to account for their crimes, a person like Strauss-Kahn is less likely to be set free after he raped the hotel maid.
The idea that any allegation of past conduct of the victim will protect the perpetrator is irrational and bizarre, but the establishment accepts crimes by the privileged. None of this is secret and its accepted as normal.
Americans are so arrogant that they prefer to not know the truth when they believe molesters and traitors would embarrass them. That's exactly what Michael Moore stated during his question period at the Miami Book Expo. "I don't want to believe that," he replied about the 9/11 Bush attack. The victims cover up to protect the perpetrators. That is irrational and only creeps would lack the dignity to demand justice from the obvious perpetrators.
OWS, unfortunately, never matured. All they've done is shown that they can obey the law and keep the park clean. Although that goes a long way, an 8 year old kid can do that.
Unfortunately, because it's refusing to grow up, it will not be taken seriously and die young.
To grow up, it needs to; 1) determine via their home grown convention system what the most important message is. 2) repeat that message, clearly, distinctly and understandably, in a plurality.
They don't need a leader. They just need a clear, distinct, common goal. If there is no common goal, it's just a bunch of people having a tailgate party and calling it a political statement.
I think this question is a reflection of a general attitude of instant gratification. OWS is a relatively recent movement and in a country like the US, where the income disparity results in many other disparities (i.e. the technological gap, urban vs. rural, education gap) and in which there's a diversity of language and cultures and people, it's going to take awhile. Add to this the fact that Americans have been steeped in an odd complacency for years now. Simply repeating that one is the best nation while remaining fairly ignorant as to the goings-on of other nations is usually not the best policy to stay on top. By remaining ignorant of the advances being made elsewhere, Americans have lost the ability to compare, analyze, and demand of their government. OWS is an important movement, even if it seems like nothing is coming together RIGHT NOW simply because it's successfully drawn the nation's focus away from Jersey Shore and the Kardashians long enough for people to notice, and agree with, and participate in correcting some of the absurdities that have been happening in this country for far too long. A movement like OWS is long overdue and it will probably take awhile for people to figure out their goals, demands, and direction to take. After all, it is the 99%. Put ten people in a room and they'll have difficulty agreeing on what is most important. When you're talking millions, it'll obviously take longer. The OWS movement and the attention it has gained is just the beginning. Hopefully, out of this, small groups will begin forming with more clear objectives in mind. Instead of complaining that OWS is going nowhere, maybe we should start collaborating to use our skills (the 99% has teachers, lawyers, writers, entrepreneurs, etc.) to effect more change.
"what solution are we presenting?" Consider finding way via White House website sponsored petition: PUBLIC VOTE on the COMPETING FINAL DEMOCRATIC vs FINAL REPUBLICAN vs INDEPENDENT VERSIONS of a CONGRESSIONAL BILL. http://wh.gov/bhC For example, both the Republican and Democratic parties claim to have tax code and healthcare reform plans, etc. Fine, put them in writing. Here the media polls and media talk shows would have something real to talk about before submitting the competing versions to the final decision-making responsibility of We the People.
OWS protesters could act on this SIGNING STATEMENT demanding a PUBLIC VOTE OPTION be incorporated as a new legislative continuing JOINT RESOLUTION. Binding on Congress itself to pass along the public majority winning version of a bill to the President. The legislative precedent being no legal difference between a joint resolution and a bill.
White House rules are Petitions receiving 25,000 votes in 30 days, are referred to evaluation followed by official White House statement. PETITIONS CANNOT BE SEARCHED ON WHITE HOUSE WEBSITE UNTIL IT GETS 150 VOTES. This link, same as above, is only way to initiate petition: http://wh.gov/bhC
Legislative PUBLIC VOTE OPTION would re-strike the BALANCE OF POWER between democracy and representation, effecting CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORE via re-directing the CASH FLOW. Not sure how? Sign the petition and find out.
It is more important to facilitate peoples understanding of truth, to change their worldview, and to inspire them with hope, than to have a leader. These things are more lasting, and in the long run more certain to create positive change. Too many look at this movement after just two months and says it's going nowhere. That impatience is a far greater threat to the movement than the lack of a leader. This movement has gained inprecidented traction in this short time,
We are in a present mind of high motions means high results. Everyone has seen these types of protests before all crumble without focus and direction. There are some things this movement has done but the whole eye-opening wasn't really an accomplishment. Honestly, its disrespectful to me as a supporter of the movement to have politicians start sympathizing with us. They sit in the capital making these policies and then 2 years later they say oh yeah those people might have a point, well lets just try to ignore it and say that we sympathize. It didn't take much for people to see the problems, 9% unemployment, $14 Trillion debt, threat of government shut down. We didn't crack smelling salts over our noses, moreover sobered up after a crazy night out and saw the uggo we went home with.
The politicians do this if we cave in and go away. When you change the cultral values underlying their power, it is they who finally cave in and go away. A good example here would be Martin Luther. He convinced people to see certain fundamental truths that did not die, they became ingrained in peoples worldview. But your point also argues, and rightly so, that we must not rely on the voting booth alone to press our agenda, but put pressure on in much more direct ways. I would like to see everyone burn their credit cards for a start. That would lite a fire under the power structure:)
I would like to see that we as a people cease to vote for politicians because they are people, fallible and corruptible, instead I would like to see people vote for policies and laws that affect our population on a mass scale. The only thing government should do is enforce law, protect its people, and levy taxes. They don't need to make any economic decisions at least without council from people that actually know something.
A wonderful Idea! My only concern is that I think having actual people to hold accountable is a good thing. I think it helps for government to have a face. The breakdown of our democracy has been largely the result of faceless corporations making decisions behind out backs, and politicians errecting barriers to accountability. My main concern with direct voting is accountability, human nature being capable of corrupting any process that's not completely transparent. There may be some compromise between these two visions that's workable.
Are you kidding? What progress has been made? Are you blind? And, in the very short time this movement has existed (not even three months old?), the banks have rescinded their transaction fees, a home in CA which was to be foreclosed and the homeowners evicted and the occupy protesters in the house forced the bank to re-finance. But, more importantly, the American people have found their voice and have found that they are strong. And, the dialogue of the corporate controlled media is asking different questions now. Politicians are being forced to face the American people when occupy protesters interrupt town hall meetings or public meetings by corporations. Three short months, and we haven't even begun yet and you are expecting the turn over of the current system? The present system WILL be replaced and it will be because of the occupy movement. There will not be anarchy as the trolls scream about. Fear-mongering and hand wringing is what the butt slaves of corporations do. That's not America. We survived before and we'll do it again - Without corporations controlling things. WE will control things as the constitution tells us we should.
i agree with you! ows has accomplished a lot in a very short time. that's probably why there are so many trolls, they're afraid!
banks changed fees because people pulled there money out. Are we going to say that OWS caused Netflix got rid of Qwickster? Corporations don't control anything its always been us. Where do people go to buy stuff and what is everyone going to be doing in 2 weeks? Making corporations change policies a few times just to get us all a pacifier doesn't mean anything when we have a government which allows politics to be nothing more than a business. The root of the problem isn't banks, its people. We took out more than we could pay and when the bank said hey its time to pay back your money, people didn't have it.
people decided to get laid off?
No jobs went overseas, because its hell opening a manufacturing plant here in the USA. Why pay the taxes to the government and the wages to the workers when you can spend millions less taking the jobs overseas. Add the fact that there is a tax incentive for corporations that take their jobs overseas and corporations endorse politicians which in turn causes those same politicians to feel an obligation to continually help out those same corporations over a period of 20 years and you get our present situation. Less jobs in the US means less money to spend to buy the items corporations make, which means they have to cut expenses, which means we have to lay people off. Then People start to squeeze their wallets and pocketbooks tighter and buy from walmart, costco, etc which causes small businesses to close leaving more people out of work and unable to pay so they all jump on unemployment and welfare meaning everyone has to pay the price. Now social security and medicare are in jeopardy as well as federally funded programs, organizations, and more jobs. Welcome to 2011
so, why would you want that present situation to continue? its a mess.
Believe me I don't seeing as I worked as a manager for Foot Locker and was laid off in January and after well over 100 resumes and applications I'm still unemployed (and not accepting unemployment because I don't want it) but it has to be a change in government. They are the ones that have to stop being lenient with corporations and stop crediting them with everything. We have to work with the government though to accomplish that. Unfortunately Millions of people sitting in random cities across the nation with a cause are exactly that, without the means to sit with the government with a person or group that can reason and bargain and implement a lasting change then what the hell are we protesting for?
No progress has been made. No progress will ever be made. What did Paterno expect to happen? read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Paterno told the athletic director about Sandusky.
"Thousands of students gathered peacefully on campus Friday night for a candlelight vigil for the boys whom former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky is accused of molesting. Two nights earlier, a violent student demonstration broke out after Paterno's firing, and emotions remain raw — a window at Sandusky's home was smashed and Paterno has retained a lawyer." By GENARO C. ARMAS and MARC LEVY Associated Press
Did Paterno expect Sandusky would stop attacking young boys because he told the athletic director? Paterno is a genius football coach so he couldn't be that stupid. Paterno became part of the crime when he believed he was covering his ass. Every kid that Sandusky attacked after 2002 is the direct responsibility of Paterno. The PA State's Attorney is protecting Paterno from his crime because Paterno won lots of football games.
This is a perfect example of the sickening American hypocrisy we live in. Americans are irrational devious people who are so arrogant they believe they are better than all others. They have ruined our spectacular country. All the Americans reading this post need to look in the mirror and blame themselves. The next step should be to demand justice and arrest Paterno. If Americans are going to stop the privileged like Paterno, and Strauss-Kahn and the congress from taking bribes, this would be a good time to start.
Paterno told the AD and the campus police (which has the same powers as a standard police force). He didn't talk to Sandusky because if it was true then Sandusky can run and get away and never get caught, he couldn't repeatedly bother police because it is entirely up to them as to whether or not the pursue an investigation, he couldn't speak out to the public because in the off chance that it wasn't true he can be sued for defamation of character. Paterno is being crucified because he was the face of the organization and his firing gives the public image that Penn State is cleaning house. Paterno followed Pennsylvania law in reporting a potentially legal problem in the workplace to his superiors and contacted authorities. To say that Paterno is a "privileged person" because he worked his ass off for well over 50 years at the same place to achieve his standing is an oxymoron. In the mean time people look at McQueary as if he blew the whistle but was he not in the same boat as Paterno? Shit he was actually there, actually saw it happening and what did he do? He ran and covered his ass by telling Paterno. Now if I had someone run up and tell me that a guy I had known for decades had been doing what McQueary said Sandusky was doing I would be in total disbelief but I would've done exactly what Paterno did: recognize that the only people that know for sure what happened are Sandusky, McQueary (maybe, because our legal system is based off an innocent until proven guilty idea and as of now it is still all hearsay), and alleged victims. Everyone called Michael Jackson a pedophile as well but I don't think he was ever convicted of anything.
Paterno never reported anything to the campus police. You are wrong. He only mentioned it to the athletic director. What happened after that? No one knows for sure and no one has asked, that I know of.
An athletic director who decides to sit on the report from Paterno failed to report it to law enforcement.
You, me, or anybody I trust hasn't read the law. This has nothing to do with Michael Jackson who paid off his accuser. For me that's a conviction.
I don't give a shit if he worked his ass off. He let Sandusky continue to attack more kids for 9 more years.
and in any case that has nothing to do with anything
It has to do with your inability to think clearly.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
And one thing I can say is that the whole conspiracy and propaganda talk makes this whole thing sound like everyone is a bunch of hippies and no one takes hippies are never taken seriously. This is Joe the Plumber all over again...quick can anyone tell me what happened to him? Don't worry pretty soon the whole Occupy Movement will be joining him in the abyss of forgotten junk then we can all talk about how we could've fixed this system and changed the country but one will say "If I only had more followers" while the other says "Yeah, if only we had a leader." It doesn't matter if you are trying to start a protest or a coup, if there is a power vacuum then there is no united cause and nothing will get done.
Joe is running for congress as a republican.
Nothing OWS will get done because it is rigidly controlled by anarchists, and nuts.
there is no power vacuum. the people are the power. cooperation is power. otherwise, everyone does only what the leader tells them to do. as in your case. you have no mind of your own and you can't imagine what a group of mature, can-do and responsible Americans can accomplish without a leader, and by working together peacefully. and the most shocking thing (to you) is that the movement is happening because Americans know its right. not because its profitable.
I'm not saying that it needs to be like the military. Just someone to rally behind and be given the support of this cause so they have the ability to take our case to the proper people to continually talk and work out this ongoing movement. Preferably some sort of group though, people can get a tad bit Napoleonic.
The only proper people is the USA congress.
This movement seems more united that many movements that came before it. They have protests in many cities around the world. It's international. Please learn what Occupy is.
Please find me the last few systems of anarchy which didn't eventually have a leader to their cause. Also, find the anarchist groups that succeeded without leadership. Give you a hint it's also the amount of grey matter in your empty skull.
I don't believe in anarchies, because I don't believe they scale. I believe change can only come with a movement which has leaders. This is why I do not support Occupy.
That being said, the point is you are rehashing what has been proposed a hundred times before. You should find one of those threads and post your rant there. Again, you are like a child asking a cheese factory to make chocolate. They will not do this. Never will. That's not their purpose, nor belief.
And all I'm saying is that it won't work. And that it needs it believe me I do not seek the approval of a person that doesn't even know how to form a proper metaphor. Just stating that its something that is the essence of a revolt. I believe that change is needed but that this movement isn't really going about it the right way. All you are doing is asking me to re-explain myself over what now seems to be some inferiority complex where you need to get the last word. I know what an anarchy is, I understand the OWS movement, and gave my opinion as to the need for a leadership role in order for this movement to go from mob to legitimate change maker. I wasn't trying to get everyone one here to agree with me and actually hoped people wouldn't to prove exactly how divided this movement is within it's own ranks. Your repeating the same thing, technically agreeing with me by saying that an anarchy won't work and that you don't agree with them yet you just can't say, you know what dude you're right.
Who cares about slander of a person if they have a point. If someone wants to throw mud at a leader but he still has a valid point then what difference does it make? A person can still be right and still make a difference even if he has made mistakes in the past. I will not say I expected the whole establishment to be fixed in 2 months but I mean, the very people that this movement is trying to get the attention of looks at this movement like its a circus
Its way worse than a circus. Clowns are harmless. OWS is a sneaky group.
That's my point stevemiller, everyone talks about protesting crooked politicians and then protests in Oakland, Wall Street, Miami, and so on and so forth but what the hell does that do? I can sit there and yell at a business man until I'm blue in the face but why wouldn't he give a politician a bribe that he will take to give him millions of dollars. At the same time the politicians are sitting back and laughing at us because we are going after the businesses and not the politicians. I have yet to see a person stand up and gather these troops together and rally towards a universal cause. Nor have I seen any reason for anyone person to take this movement seriously. It looks like a temper tantrum and it really only seems like a matter of time before everyone gets bored of it and goes back to the everyday crap. And asking for reason from screwballs would be like asking for math lessons from a preschooler. If you are going to incite a movement with a weak foundation then what do you expect is going to happen? People cry out for a honest and sincere politician but we follow a 2 party system that has been a liability since it's inception. I don't think our first president would've spoken against political parties if he didn't know it was going to cause massive amounts of problems. Its so ironic that the 99% is crying foul against politicians when our government is made for power to come from the people. Look at what happened: the republicans had a rough go for Clinton did well in office, Bush started okay but he had some bad luck (Katrina, 9/11, internet and real estate bubbles popped, Afghanistan & Iraq) and then along with the help of our Democratic house and congress it got a lot worse over the next 8 years, then along came Obama (promising change and he was energetic and emotional and a "breath of fresh air") here we are 3 years later and after a change from democratic house and congress back to republican, were in the same boat with more holes. I mean really what in the hell are we even doing anymore as a nation, are we so blind to see that businesses aren't the damn problem?
We agree until you got to Clinton. Clinton was Bush in disguise. That's why they ran Dole to make sure Clinton would get his 2nd term.
OWS has a movement. I've been there 7 times. It was hard for me to believe. They believe in utopia 100%.
We're asking for reason from screwballs. Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans.
read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
Is this movement really looking for anarchy and is that the solution? I mean I knew that eventually the people in this nation were going to rise up and question the government's decision making after a hot streak of bone-headed decisions but with any movement you need to have leadership to instill focus and direction. Having no leadership means that there is no one to start talking to who needs to be talked to for any sort of change to take place. Without leadership no one is taken seriously, only seen as a bunch of scared people hiding behind the mass group, running scared as the police come to split them up. Its almost like hitting the light switch in a broken down apartment, just watch them scatter and then come back after. Eventually this will end and what will be the outcome? As far as I can see, nothing is going to come of this.
They literally believe in utopia.
why are people talking anarchy? when the present system is replaced, Americans being the intelligent, pragmatic and resourceful can-do types will keep order. They will keep order not because its profitable, but, because its constructive and positive. when people talk of anarchy happening because of the end of the present system, they are assuming the worst of Americans - that Americans are greedy children who are selfish and self-centered. true, a lot of Americans are this - especially the ones who are angry at the occupy movement. but, most of America is different, the 99% are different than that. We have the capacity to do anything, if we want to.
Americans are arrogant people in a trance. What did Paterno expect to happen? read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Paterno told the athletic director about Sandusky.
"Thousands of students gathered peacefully on campus Friday night for a candlelight vigil for the boys whom former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky is accused of molesting. Two nights earlier, a violent student demonstration broke out after Paterno's firing, and emotions remain raw — a window at Sandusky's home was smashed and Paterno has retained a lawyer." By GENARO C. ARMAS and MARC LEVY Associated Press
Did Paterno expect Sandusky would stop attacking young boys because he told the athletic director? Paterno is a genius football coach so he couldn't be that stupid. Paterno became part of the crime when he believed he was covering his ass. Every kid that Sandusky attacked after 2002 is the direct responsibility of Paterno. The PA State's Attorney is protecting Paterno from his crime because Paterno won lots of football games.
This is a perfect example of the sickening American hypocrisy we live in. Americans are irrational devious people who are so arrogant they believe they are better than all others. They have ruined our spectacular country. All the Americans reading this post need to look in the mirror and blame themselves. The next step should be to demand justice and arrest Paterno. If Americans are going to stop the privileged like Paterno, and Strauss-Kahn and the congress from taking bribes, this would be a good time to start.
Tom Bradley is the Penn State coach for the game today. He just appeared on ESPN to discuss the merits of Joe Paterno. Its pure American hypocrisy to excuse Paterno for his good deeds in the past. I'm not claiming that Paterno never was any good or ever showed any signs of being evil. Few people were in a position to know that Paterno methodically opened the door for Sandusky to molest each child from the day Paterno learned what Sandusky did.
It is the behavior of the American people after there is confirmation of a criminal act that is being swept under the rug for the benefit of a privileged person. It is also the behavior of the American people who refuse to believe the jury acquittal of Casey Anthony who definitely never murdered her daughter Caylee. It was the main stream media. It was Nancy Grace and every other HLN reporter who misled their entire audience with daily lies about the trial, the witnesses, the evidence, and the brilliant defense by Jose Baez. Then all other reporters from other media companies joined the effort to murder Casey Anthony by a state execution. Only creeps do that.
and?
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
The anarchy talk comes from the numb-nuts Thrasymaque. He calls the movement an anarchy while I believe that some sort of organized leadership for, hopefully, some sort of eventual negotiations or talks concerning change in government policy that can be implemented in order to end this movement with a high degree of success.
I think he's referring to anarchy in the literal sense, that is, no defined leader, everyone has an equal say, not the political sense as in political disorder and violence. Personally I believe OWS will have to evolve eventually into a more traditional, organized, hierarchical structure in order to accomplish any real goals.
the occupy movement is a social movement, not a political one. corporations control our government and our economy. voting and participating in this system is fruitless - as we have seen. this is the reason that the occupy movement exists. hoping for change by working in the present system is actually quite an insane hope.
Its our 2 party system at fault. We have these elections where you have to vote for candidate X which will do next to nothing from the rep. or candidate Y which will do absolutely nothing from the dem. Politics are a business but to say our corporations are controlling this nation isn't completely accurate, all it takes is a person to say no, to stand for what is right in office and to have the same fortitude as our founders to not simply understand the need for a government that does what is best for its people but to turn away those who offer bribes and donations and do the right thing. People say it is the corporations that are out of control but it was and currently is our government that allowed and allows it to happen
This movement is only two months old. You can't expect too much in such a short period of time. In my opinion, one of the problems with people nowadays, myself included at times, is they're too impatient. You can't seriously believe we can change the problems in this country in two months, do you? And there's a very good reason there is no single leader, that's part of the plan. With no leader, the opposition has no one to attack, smear or slander. Also, the first march on Washington left Zuccotti Park Wednesday with a plan to arrive in DC on the 23rd. If you have any other questions I'll try to answer them.
There are definite leaders. They are very sneaky about that.
The 1 I know is John Freisen. He's a very sneaky liar to me.
It's the fast food culture. They want everything in 5 minutes. That's one of the reasons the system is broke. People no longer want to make the effort of educating themselves, they rather read about conspiracy theories which makes them feel like they understand everything without them having to lift a finger.
Yes indeed. It amazes me how many people on this forum have said the same thing as the OP. It's taken decades to break the system, why do they think it can be fixed in a matter of weeks?
This has nothing to do with wanting a swift end to the OWS movement or quick change to sweep though this country, but for people to realize that the current state of our nation is not what our founding fathers had in mind and that they would be extremely disappointed and almost certainly ashamed of our current political situation. Furthermore, for the citizens of this country to inform our politicians and lawmakers that this is not a vast group of people with different ideology and opinions but one group standing solid on one agenda and one principle for change in this nation's political mindset. To talk about the difference in income means nothing to this movement, people work hard and make money. How on earth is a political change going to take place in this nation if the focus is on money and not the fact that the politicians lack of intelligence in balancing their own check book, giving tax credit to businesses who take jobs overseas, and would rather cut the funding to national parks and federally funded organizations than cut their own paychecks.
I'm just saying you guys need to be a little patient. OWS is in its infancy. This is just the first of many steps. Right now they're just trying to get the message out and to build their numbers. Sure there's going to be mistakes made, they've made a few already. That should be expected. And I think there are still a lot of misconceptions about the movement, one being that it's about wealth or income. It's not, it's about corruption. About the very wealthy using their money to influence Washington. We don't have a problem with people being wealthy. And proposals are being drawn up. Check this link to see one, if you haven't looked at it already:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/
I don't think it's a viable long term solution either, but the philosophy behind this movement is indeed based on principles or anarchy. Occupying itself is a staple of anarchy. Punks used to squat buildings in the 80's for example. David Graeber, the architect behind Occupy, is an intellectual anarchist.
What will come of this? Well, a lot already has. This movement is international and has grabbed the attention of many who are now questioning the problems with the system. That, in itself, is a big achievement. It probably would not have been possible with a normal type of movement with leaders and a platform. Occupy was able to rally the world around the thought that our systems are broke. It's an amazing accomplishment. When was the last time you saw protesters all around the world protesting the same thing in unison?
If there is anyone person that says that they haven't thought, told someone, at least muttered under their breath (in this country or overseas) "Man, the US is fuckin up.", they are a liar and deserve to be beaten with tube socks filled with oranges. No one expects this to be fixed in weeks or months but where is the direction? Has there even been a final agreement on exactly what this movement is fighting for or is it all still being petitioned? Who cares if people in this nation and abroad say "You hear about that Occupy Wall Street thing?" and the response is "Oh yeah man, that's pretty crazy." To say our system is broken is one thing, and I think people have thought that for the last 15 years but this "city, street, and building squatting gets nothing done. You need to draft petitions, go to congress or the supreme court, the president or something and begin to address the grievances to start a change. The sad part is that there is a man sitting in the highest office of our country, who campaigned for change and no one has yet to personally reach out to him and say "Mr. President we need change and this is your time to make good on your promise, let's start to fix this broken system and restore our nation to it's former glory."
Again, the movement is designed as an anarchy. Having a leader is antithetical. Occupy has goals and they are achieving them. The problem is you don't agree with said goals or the structure of the movement. Fine. All nice and dandy. You said your peace, now it's time for you to start you own movement. What's the point of incessantly repeating that a cow should make honey instead of milk?
And you just proved my point. This will only lead to this grand movement being split into little sects with no results. For further information take your ignorant ass to the library and look up the Protestant Reformation, different time period and different subject matter. yet same concept. Furthermore, you happen to be in my forum post talking about my subject. So why continue to talk about milk and honey and antithetical theories and the fantasy of goal achievement seeing as you have said your piece and I really don't need to hear about it anymore?
The problem is you lack creativity. There are a hundred like you that made the same posts before, asking for a leader. It won't happen. Occupy is not about that. You have to put that through your thick skull, then make the effort to start your own movement. What's the point of repeating ad infinitum what others have already said. You're like a little boy in front of a cheese factory screaming for them to make chocolate. Where is your originality?
Probably lost in your insipid metaphors. Why does an idea have to be creative to work?
An idea does not have to be creative to work, but it should be creative to need its own thread in the forum. What you should do is find one of the hundred threads before yours which proposed the same thing you are proposing and post your rant in there. Better yet, would be to start your own movement or post in a forum that is not run by a group of anarchists who DO NOT and NEVER WILL have leaders because that is antithetical to their structure. I'm curious, do you go in republican forums and ask them that they should re-structure themselves like anarchies and renounce the use of leaders? Would that make sense? Would it be productive? Would anyone in the movement care? These are all questions you should ask yourself.
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I have read that this guy is the most likely candidate. He is being talked about more and more.
http://www.ginandtacos.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ows.png
There ARE leaders. They are just hidden behind the curtain.
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You make good points, but you would need to create a new movement as the idea of having a leader is antithetical to anarchy. You're asking for a bee to make milk instead of honey.
Your point is ridiculous. We're not talking to bees. You're sitting in the park doing nothing but being stupid. Bees work.
My point is that Occupy was designed as an anarchy, so it makes little sense to ask them for a leader. This request is antithetical. BTW - I am not supporting Occupy. I don't believe anarchy is the solution to the current problems.
Anarchy is idiotic. You pander to people who insult your intelligence.
the occupy movement is not an anarchy just because it doesn't have leaders. the occupy has a structure other than the one you are used to. the occupy movement could not exist and continue to grow without a structure.
I am not an anarchist. Whether you think anarchy is idiotic or not is absolutely beside the point. The point is Occupy was designed as an anarchy, so asking them to have a leader is antithetical.
I also think putting your head in your ass is another dumb idea.
Then why do you constantly put your head in your ass?
good one. stevebiller, you're an idiot
Be specific. Quit babbling.
You are unable to comprehend basic arguments, so your replies end up being simple minded idiotic retorts. Before using this forum, you should read some books and educate yourself. When you are able to comprehend basic English and understand how discussions are formed, then you will be able to post counter arguments that make sense. Instead, you are just wasting your time. The people who control the world are smart, if you don't educate yourself you'll never be able to compete with them or understand how they are controlling you. Don't be afraid to learn. Differentiate yourself. There are many many simple minded trolls like you around. That means you're not special. You're like a parrot, you simply repeat rehashed simple minded nonsense because you can't form structured arguments. Anybody can do what you are doing. In the end, it makes you look like your head spends most of its time up your ass. You still have a bit of shit on the tip of our nose.
No progress has been made. No progress will ever be made. What did Paterno expect to happen? read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Paterno told the athletic director about Sandusky.
"Thousands of students gathered peacefully on campus Friday night for a candlelight vigil for the boys whom former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky is accused of molesting. Two nights earlier, a violent student demonstration broke out after Paterno's firing, and emotions remain raw — a window at Sandusky's home was smashed and Paterno has retained a lawyer." By GENARO C. ARMAS and MARC LEVY Associated Press
Did Paterno expect Sandusky would stop attacking young boys because he told the athletic director? Paterno is a genius football coach so he couldn't be that stupid. Paterno became part of the crime when he believed he was covering his ass. Every kid that Sandusky attacked after 2002 is the direct responsibility of Paterno. The PA State's Attorney is protecting Paterno from his crime because Paterno won lots of football games.
This is a perfect example of the sickening American hypocrisy we live in. Americans are irrational devious people who are so arrogant they believe they are better than all others. They have ruined our spectacular country. All the Americans reading this post need to look in the mirror and blame themselves. The next step should be to demand justice and arrest Paterno. If Americans are going to stop the privileged like Paterno, and Strauss-Kahn and the congress from taking bribes, this would be a good time to start.
Steve you have admitted that you are a convicted felon who spent 9 years in prison for extortion. Why are you looking for your next prey here?
Red Herring. Once again.
occupy was not "designed" as an anarchy. who "designed" it? you can have order without having a leader. its called cooperation. with competition, there are leaders. you think that anything other than the present system is anarchy. can't you imagine anything better? and do you have the courage to do it?
Read the business article I posted. It will explain who designed it.
a link to the article would be helpful. or re-posting it would be great...
http://anarchistnews.org/node/16624
It is from Business Week, but the version reposted on this website is easier to read since it is on one page. There is a link to the original Business Week article if you wish to read it there.
Any system without leaders is by definition an anarchy. Anarchy comes from the Greek word anarkhos 'an' without, 'arkhos' leader. NOTE: I am NOT saying anarchies are bad. I am just explaining what the system is. There are many different types of anarchies. Occupy is in the pacific anarchic tradition. Whether you believe it is a good move in order to change things at the current time is another discussion altogether.