Forum Post: Wisconsin Unions Shoot For More Obedient Boss
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 17, 2012, 8:04 p.m. EST by Ninetyninenot
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Wisconsin government workers were outraged by the actions of their boss, Governor Walker. So, in classic union form, they set up a recall campaign to simply have him replaced with some more compliant. See, this is part of what's broken when public employees can use their role as citizens to vote themselves their own boss. Unions are supposed to negotiate across the table, but not own both sides of the table at our expense.
Sadly, government unions and their employees have become relentless advocates for bigger government and tax increases, not for any benefit as citizens, but merely because they work there. They talk the talk of sticking it to the Man, but all they're really doing is sticking it to their neighbor that doesn't happen to work for government.
Government should exist for its people, not just its employees. Wisconsin is now a test of this important principle.
Hey Ninetyninenot....spare us the crocodile tears and listen up:
Scott Walker is not the boss of Wisconsin state employees.The people of the state of Wisconsin are the bosses of state employees. Scott Walker is just another employee of the people like all the rest. So, you see, the unions aren't voting themselves a new boss. They're just voting to rid themselves of an arrogant douche-nozzle who thinks it's cool to cut spending on public education by 800,000,000 USD.
And, for the record, they collected 1,000,208 signatures. That's half the electorate of the state of Wisconsin (they only need 506,208...or 25% of the electorate). I seriously doubt that half the registered voters in Wisconsin are members of the State Employees Union. Which means, non-state employees also think Scott Walker is an insufferable dickweed .
Yes, he's touched a third rail. He represents the people, not just the employees. That's quite a shock for the unions. He's being rather uppity and now they're going to put him in his place. How dare he challenge the employees. Now they'll have to fix that at the polls! Yes, they'll fix it at the polls and then return to their desks to benefit from what they just voted themselves. It's corrupt and broken.
This is for the future of Wisconsin. Will government represent the people or the employees that have rigged the deal at the ballot box? We'll see.
They did get a lot of signatures. They have a lot of employees, spouses, kids and such that support it. You know damn well every government employee in the state signed it; that's what they do. That's why it's broken. Then there are liberals that have no idea that it comes out of the hide of the working family that doesn't work for government. They think they've just scored something off of the Man.
Yes, he's touched a third rail. He represents the people, not just the employees. That's quite a shock for the unions. He's being rather uppity and now they're going to put him in line. How dare he challenge the employees. Now they'll have to fix that at the polls! Yes, they'll fix it at the polls and then return to their desks to benefit from what they just voted themselves. It's corrupt and broken.
This is for the future of Wisconsin. Will government represent the people or the employees that have rigged the deal at the ballot box? We'll see.
They did get a lot of signatures. They have a lot of employees, spouses, kids and such that support it. You know damn well every government employee in the state signed it; that's what they do. That's why it's broken. Then there are liberals that have no idea that it comes out of the hide of the working family that doesn't work for government. They think they've just scored something off of the Man.
keep on believing that, just like here in ohio last fall, you GOPers went after teachers, cops, and firefighters.
Then you guys told yourselves that it was liberal unionists that got the issue on the ballot here in Ohio.
But come election day, the law was struck down last fall because we saw who the GOP really stood for.
So keep on keepin' on, thinking you can fool anyone that you represent anything other that multinational corps.
wisconsin will be a repeat of Ohio
It may be a repeat of Ohio. But that's just a signal to business and non-government employees that it's better to make a future somewhere else. That's already a huge problem in Wisconsin if you look at how many college grads leave the state. It'll just get worse and then, one day, it'll just be the beneficiaries of taxes wondering why there's no one left to target.
oh boy, the tired one-day-you'll-be-sorry logic.
After all the grown-ups left the GOP last year, did we leave behind only 12 year old nit wits? or what?
Wouldn't it be a better world when the workers run things instead of the one percent? I think it would.
No, it wouldn't be. But go ahead, find a neighbor that doesn't work for government and make your case. LOL. Because that's what it is. Government workers vs non-government workers.
Awesome!
Go Union! Go Wisconsin!
Thank you New Jersey government employee. And you should cheer on the Wisconsin employees. If they stop being in control of their own management, New Jersey could be next. What then? Gosh, government might be handed back to the people. How sad for the entrenched employees. I get it why you're upset at the prospect.
How sad that Walker gave hundreds of millions in tax breaks and tax subsidies to the wealthiest corporations, creating a budget crisis that didn't exist before, then blamed your children's teachers.
He is NOT for the people. He is NOT for getting your kids the education they need and deserve. He IS about giving your taxes, your hard-earned money to the wealthy instead of investing it in your state's workers, infrastructure, and the future of your kids.
And you are too fucking stupid to know it. And worse, you are imbecilic enough to defend it. And you're psychotic enough to do so on a site dedicated to OWS.
ROTFLMAO.
Oh, and I'm not a government employee. It pays too little and the work conditions stink because of assholes like you.
Smarten up little liberal. All those things government does are being crowded out by the benefits and work rules of the union employees you support.
Smarten up, moron. Giving hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks to wealthy corporations are crowding out government services for citizens.
The Unions agreed to almost everything Walker put on the table in terms of cutting costs. He didn't care about that. All he wanted was to gut their right to collective bargaining. Money wasn't the issue. The state budget wasn't the issue. Destroying the union was.
And now, over one million citizens of that state have said "enough". They saw through the right-wing lies and obfuscations, and they are going ahead to recall the bastard.
They tactically agreed to some of what Walker wanted just to avoid real reform. But Walker saw a once in a generation chance at genuine reform and he took it. The union flew into a rage and now they want to settle it by getting a more compliant boss and putting fear into any other politician that won't let them own both sides of the negotiating table.
They didn't "tactically anything. If the issue was money, they gave it. But the issue of money was demonstrated to be a bald-faced lie. There was NO budget crisis until the Walker created one, and after the financial concessions by the unions (the people who work) it became quickly clear that the issue was about power, about emasculating the people who work for you.
It wasn't just the Union who flew into a rage, it was hard-working teachers, policemen, EMTs, firefighters, garbage collectors, and everyone else, and everywhere else, who cleans up the massive amounts of shit people like you generate physically and psychologically.
The workers are not, nor have they EVER been on both sides of the table. Only one; The side of the workers, not the side of the 1% management. And, by the way, schmuck, they are taxpayers, too.
Collective bargaining is a right. It is the only way to prevent slavery to the state as an employee. And one million of your fellow citizens agree enough to have signed a petition to recall your arrogant, corporate-welfare loving Governor.
Yeah, they did. They wanted to duck and cover and wait Walker and the moment of reform out of office. Then, what they conceded, they'd get restored by the next stooge.
They are on BOTH side of the table. That's EXACTLY what the recall is about. It's brazen and obvious. They're doing their best to replace Walker with a compliant stooge that'll sell out the people that don't work for government.
Slavery? Huh? Funny how the fabulous government liberals love and want to grow is somehow this abusive and exploitive employer that must be defended against. Too fucking funny.
Litards are a little too dim to understand this, but state workers aren't sticking it to the Man in the "1%", they're sticking it to their neighbors that just don't happen to work for government. Smarten up.
Gee, government employees are taxpayers. True, but kinda stupid not to understand the conflict of interest. Let's see, government gets bigger and I get $1 more. Hmm, I pay $.07 in taxes back to the state leaving me with $.93. Sure, I'm a taxpayer, but my interest as an employee OBVIOUSLY trumps that. Wanna embarrass yourself and tell me that you can't get that?
go occupy eternity you disgusting repelican shill
Sorry, we can't all live off the tit. Rather than protesting in Madison, why not bang on your neighbor's door and make your pathetic case to him instead. He's the one paying for it.
guess what . . .
bwa hahahaha
hahah ahahaha
That's an excellent situation for your neighbor. They've been able to bury themselves deeply into the public pocket and their power is almost impossible to dislodge. Witness Wisconsin. They've been able to take control of their workplaces and make their own managements their subordinates via the ballot box.
But it all ends badly. Places most corrupted by this problem are failing. New Jersey, Illinois, and the City of Chicago are excellent examples. Plenty of other places have also been horribly compromised. They've made enormous promises and hid them from taxpayers; it's been a conspiracy of the unions and their hand picked bosses. But that's coming to an end as it all explodes.
Here's just one example of how the unions and government have conspired to hide from us what they've done. Future cash flows are discounted back to have a sense at the present value of what's owed. This is likely way over your head, but the higher the discount rate, the lower the number shown. 2/3rds of government pension plans use at least 8%. That wildly understates what they've given away.
Here's a little help at educating yourself. Maybe then you can open your eyes and drop the simple minded demagoguery. Fessing up shows such horrific numbers that, at best, they're slowing walking the discount rates down to something honest. And if the public saw the real numbers, voices for reform would grow... and that's the last thing the unions are going to allow.
http://ai-cio.com/channel/NEWSMAKERS/Reports_Highlight_Public_Pension_Problem__High_Assumed_Rates.html
http://businesspublicpolicy.com/?p=2001
http://www.soa.org/library/monographs/retirement-systems/public-pension-finance/2010/june/mono-2010-mrs10-wilcox-paper.pdf
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/03/pensions
Hmm. There are approximately 284,000 public employees in Wisconsin:
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_d89a1ae2-3a5a-11e0-a028-001cc4c002e0.html
And, over 1 million signatures were collected:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/over-a-million-signatures-filed-to-force-recall-of-wisconsin-gov-scott-walker/2012/01/17/gIQAXPT55P_blog.html
Sure, they have family members too and some libtards that reflexively support them. They're fighting for "working families" unaware that theiy're simply siding with the government class of working families at the expense of non-government employee working families.
And they may win. They failed in their earlier attempts to hijack the government with the recalls and the Supreme Court run. But this is what they do. What they can't get at work, they'll get once they elect their own boss. It's corruption.
I disagree, but appreciate you explaining your position.
You shouldn't. They've terribly corrupted the process. Negotiations are supposed to be between employees and management. Management is supposed to represent the citizens. But unique in unions, government unions corrupt the process by electing their own bosses using their dual roles. That's what Wisconsin is about in bright lights for everyone to see. They're relentless advocates at the polls for higher taxes, just for their share on the receiving end as employees.
Well, what are employees to do when management is the government? They still have bargaining rights. And, oftentimes, the wages and benefits of public sector workers drive the wages and benefits for the private sector. So, it could benefit everyone in the long run.
But they shouldn't. Government is a special situation of union rights because of the corruption of the dual role. By their nature, they subvert the negotiating process by controlling both sides of the table.
But they don't lead the way for private employees, they simply divert their tax money to their own pockets. Liberals love to support "working families"; that's the language that gets tossed around in defense of government unions. They just forgot about the non-government worker families that pay for it.
Oh, heck, I doubt the teachers in Wisconsin voted in Scott Walker.
Really? Union employees make up the majority of the electorate? Last I heard all unions COMBINED amounted to less than 11% of all workers in the whole country.
Another Repbulitard myth exposed.
No, they don't. But you know that damn near every last one of them signed, libtards in general signed, and family members signed. That's a lot.
Government unions are relentless advocates for bigger government and higher taxes, not for any benefit as citizens, but for the cheap and self-interested reason of simply working there. It's broken.
Another day another Scab is upset. America is a union.
No, the taxpayers are simply waking up. They've been scammed by insider government union deals as they've negotiated away our tax money with hand picked negotiating partners. And now they're at it again in Wisconsin. It's a corruption that needs to stop. Maybe if Wisconsin can hold, taxpayers in Illinois and New Jersey finally have a prayer too.
Liberals need their come to Jesus moment. They still believe the fantasy that the unions get their money from government. They don't, they get it from their neighbors.
Yeah, people who teach your children should have no right to make a living, to negotiate for smaller class sizes so YOUR kids can actually have a good education. Neither should the people who collect YOUR garbage be allowed to be in a position to earn a living wage, or work in safe conditions. They should do everything for you and your family for free. Hey, I have an idea: let's make slavery legal f - in fact, mandatory - for municipal and state workers.
That's a straw man. They can earn a living, but they can't control the workplace via the ballot box. That's the issue.
You mean believe the propaganda that it's the union that promotes quality education, but I sure as hell don't. Sure, everything they want is, everybody now, "FOR THE CHILDREN". Yeah, of course it is. LOL.
Is this the latest CATO angle, or did it come from Heritage?
Pure unadulterated propaganda.
All they want is the hard won right to collective bargaining.
union power is diminished by automation
and a large surplus of the unemployed
less human labor is required to process privately own resource into product
public employee unions shouldn't be engaged in collective bargaining and also able to donate time, money, etc. to the candidates who are supposedly negotiationg with them once elected. Obvious, inherent conflict. And taxpayers hold the bag for this looting
OK Rush.
Whatever you say.
Those Kindergarten teacher THUGS need to be put in their place.
People with an education won't believe FLAKESnews stories.
And that's bad for (R)epelicans.
You want the money out?
Me too.
But let's start with the (R)epelican supported entities that convince you with such propaganda.
Teachers deserve a good retirement and benefits, just for trying to teach folks like you anything at all.
That has to be the hardest job in the World.
I never went to public school so couldnt speak from first hand experience. But teachers unions are rotten. masquerading as educational associations, motiviated by nothing more than pure concern for children. Bleech, they're tough and more inflexible than teamsters. Good job, fine.. Good pay, sure. Three months off a year, sure! Fat public pension after 20 yrs. Nope! Spare me the sanctimony. It ain't the hardest job in the world, unless youre not qualified to do it!
I guess you should have gone to public school.
You didn't learn much where you went.
They offer a great labor studies degree at Wayne State University.
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That's exactly what it is, employees flipping the cap around to the side that says "voter" to vote themselves a more compliant boss. Then, post election, the cap gets swung back around to "employee".
Even FDR knew better than to unleash public employee unions.
Yep.
That's the "only" FDR quote you'll find at CATO.
Truncated at that.
Sure, more fantasy. But why liberals leap to the defense of this corruption is puzzling. Many just hear "union" and they're off. But like I wrote, this isn't classic stickin' it to the Man, this is stickin' it to your neighbor that doesn't happen to work for government. What's more, it's crowding out the stuff government does that liberals love. Great, have a state budget that enriches it's employees with crazy work rules and lavish benefits and see how many teachers you can hire. Watch your programs get shut down as the money gets siphoned away to fund retirements that the working families that pay for it don't get.
Teabagge(r)s raised my my taxes!!!!!!
For a corporate tax break!!!!
Stop re-pooping Limbaugh crap.
It smells bad.
There ain't nothing "lavish" about a teachers contract!!!
STOP with the BS propaganda!
Government union employees are relentless advocates for higher taxes. Why? Because of some high-minded benefit as citizens? Sadly, it's only because they work there. Nice.
(R)epelicans raise my taxes!!!!!!!
(R)epelicans crashed the economy!!!!!!!
(R)epelicans love FLAKESnews!!!!!!
(R)epelicans start wars they have no idea how to finish!!!!!
(R)epelicans HATE unions.
Therefore I HATE (R)epelicans in all their many and varied forms.
Conse(R)vatives!!!!
Teabagge(R)s!!!!!!
Libe(R)tarians!!!!!!
They are all (R)epelicans
Plus whatever else their calling themselves these days.
All are the same.
They hate it when working people make a dime.
They hate it when working people get an even break.
(R)epelicans are the REAL thugs!!!!!!!!!
The "working people" in government are being paid by working people that don't work for government. Libtards just can't seem to grasp this simple point. That "even break" is comes from somewhere; it's a bad break for working people people paying the taxes.
What happened to petitioning your boss for a raise?
You know, your benevolent corporate owner.
It isn't those workers fault, you're too chicken shit to ask for a raise.
Perhaps your whole problem is, you're not in a union.
There's a difference between petitioning your boss and electing yourself a new one. Public unions corrupt the process. For any dope that didn't get it before, Wisconsin is a raw example. The union has flown into a rage and went straight for the ballot box to elect someone more compliant. They set their own table at the ballot box and then sit down to feast as employees, all at the expense of working families that don't happen to work for government.
That's funny.
To bad it's not really true.
Another twist of the truth.
A distortion of how contracts are negotiated.
So, what did happen to asking your boss for a raise?
Afraid he' ll fire you for the asking?
LOL!
Your ignorance of and contempt for democracy is staggering.
That's funny too. The corruption of our democracy is coming from the unions. They use the ballot to self-select their bosses to undermine the mission of government. It's supposed to serve its citizens, not just its employees. For anyone dumb enough not to get that before, you now have Wisconsin. It's about as blatant as it gets.
There is no response for your level of self-imposed ignorant stupidity in regards to democracy.
Yeah, I understand that you can't come up with one. I see a group of government employees doing all they can to self-select their boss as a subversion of the process, you see it as something to embrace. Wonderful.
If a majority of the voters ratify the recall petition that is the democratic will of the American voters residing in Wisconsin.
You are incapable of accepting the democratic will of the people when that will does not support your dictatorial Reich-wing ego. Tough love Bubba!
Convoluted, mind-twisting, flat-out, bullshit.
they learned this from government.. you always here of the replacement of any individual in the government that doesnt kow tow to whomever is in power. its ok for the powerful but not for the weak?
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WI Right-wingers Fear democracy
No, they understand that unions have subverted the process. They also understand that working families that don't work for government get stuck with the bill and the broken government services that result.
Not a deep thinker, are you there aahpat? LOL
Prove your paranoid assertions. You are insane.
Prove yours. You've haven't put up anything thoughtful yet, so it would be a start.
Wisconsin Electoral math:
Wisconsin's total population, as of 2009, is 5.6 million. Including children and any others ineligible to vote.
The petitions for recall of Gov. Walker are reported to have gathered 1 million signatures.
In 2008 Wisconsin had a total voting age population of 4,306,876.
Their total turnout was 2,997,086. http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html
Most any petition drive is more a proportional representation of the population sentiment than it is a compilation of actual total sentiment. So if each person who singed is representative of just one more like-minded person in the state they have an easy win for recalling Walker.
I completely agree. Great post.
Fundamentally, it's absolutely what's going on. They want to elect someone that will do their bidding at work.
Gov Walker will prevail and this will be the Libby's last stand on this. Wisconsin is doing a lot better now so leave it alone libs
Probably so. The unions now will have to select a candidate, a Democrat no doubt. That candidate will have a lot to overcome. He or she will be an obvious union stooge, not well known, and a lot of the non-government workers now get the joke about the union threat and how they corrupted government over the years.
And there's another issue. The reforms have been working. That's gonna be hard to give back.
got that right
I cannot wait for the people of Wisconsin to be free from the Koch heads.
Unions have corrupted the system. Yes, cheer them on as they restore their control of the workplace and hand pick their own boss. Government should exist firstly for the benefit of its employees; the citizens can remain an after thought. So sayeth the libtards.
No, they haven't. Outsourcing specific tasks has proven in many areas to be more expensive for tax payers in the long run. If you did your homework you would know this. The Koch brothers are going down. :D
It isn't about outsourcing, sweetie, it's about restoring something that's been lost: government should work for its citizens, not just its employees. The union's in a huff because someone dared challenge their control. They'll have a hand picked stooge to run against Walker that'll do their bidding if elected. Yep, elect your own boss. It's easier to get what you want that way.
. . . you repelican whore . . .
I cannot stand you scumbag repelicans with your lies and your spin
You cannot take away the right of an individual American citizen from stating explicitly I will not work under these conditions
You cannot take away the right of American workers to make such a decision in Unison.
You can curb the willingness of employers to negotiate with workers who are organized. And that's about all.
You bastards do not represent the American people. You represent your own narrow world view - and that world view is in complete discredit on all fronts.
Bush never had a mandate - no matter how many repelican scubbags insisted otherwise.
Boner never represented the will of the people in the budget debates - he represented perhaps 11 % of the public persuaded by his lies
Walker is DONE
the repelican party is DONE
and you can kiss my ass
Even if he loses, his reforms will stand and the union will eventually have to settle for second place, behind the interests of the people. They're shocked and outraged that anyone could have the nerve to not do their bidding, but it happened.
No one is trying to stop anyone from quitting a job and finding something better. Government could use some turn-over for a change. But that's the typical government worker's worst nightmare and it simply ain't gonna happen and you know it.
Bravo Ninetyninenot.. This is like Greece in Wisconsin.
Recall efforts mount against courageous Republicans in Wisconsin who have stood firm against unrealistic union demands. In spite of the fact that the stance of the newly elected Governor and legislature has been shown to be entirely reasonable and necessary, unions took to the streets to promote violence and issue death threats. And at a time when dozens of states face economic collapse, the stubborn tantrum portrayed by unions is not only unreasonable but oppressive, and their tactics are spreading to other states. These Unions are corrupt, greedy, and uncaring about the taxpayer. Bravo Gov Walker.
Unions are going by the way of the dinosaur. They are no longer useful and have created havoc on many Gov, etc. They are corrupt and bleeding the system
But they still have a tap line deeply set into taxpayer veins and they're attached real tightly. Wresting control back for the citizens isn't easy. It's like an exorcism.