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Forum Post: Will Supreme Court Kill Health Care Reform?

Posted 2 years ago on March 27, 2012, 8:06 p.m. EST by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA
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  • If it does, OWS should organize massive movements across this nation for our elected representatives to put forth an alternative -- pronto.

  • Elected representatives lost all credibility when they killed "Hillary Care" some two decades ago, and then failed, miserably, to produce any fixes. Meanwhile millions more were cut out of health care. Many have died for lack of health care. Many more have gone into bankruptcy for lack of health care.

  • They need to pass SINGLE PAYER health care. Cut the free market out.

  • Or, pass a GOVERNMENT OPTION.

  • Or, get WalMart to quit playing games and terminating benefits for workers.

  • Or raise our minimum wage to something like $50 an hour so people can afford "free market" health care.

  • Do anything. Do something. Fix the problem. Quit playing political football with people's lives.

  • If Supreme Court terminates health care, we need a quick and comprehensive solution. Otherwise these so-called "PRO-LIFERS" are really PRO-DEATH!.

129 Comments

129 Comments


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[-] 8 points by Demian (497) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

The individual mandate should be struck down. Why should private citizens be forced to buy a corporate product?

[-] 5 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

you're right !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 0 points by bluoxe (0) 2 years ago

well if you want healthcare chances are you are already paying for a corporate product to deliver you the services at a discounted rate, aren't you?

[-] 2 points by JonFromSLC (-107) from West Valley City, UT 2 years ago

Yes, but you're doing it under your own free will.

[-] 0 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • Well... when you think about it, I was forced to buy a whole host of corporate products. For example, billions of dollars of our taxes went to an oil company (Halliburton) in a no-bid contract to feed our troops.

  • Then in a humongous unpatriotic act, Halliburton moved its corporate headquarters from Texas to Dubai! --- Dubai? Jeeez!

  • And that is just one example out of zillions where my tax dollars and your are being spent for things I am opposed to. Can I stop paying taxes? Yea! If I want to start spending time in Levenworth.

[-] 2 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

Well when you think about it we where force to pay for GM and Chrysler. Now Chrysler is NOT even an American owned company anymore and was sold at a lost for the american payers. Also GM gave us the VOLT that is an all electric car (40miles) with a gas engine. Right now the production has stopped and laid off the workers but this was a highly touted car even by the government,and they have not payed back the billions we gave them. Also GE is very very close with Obama.

[-] 1 points by Demian (497) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

I dont think i understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that those things are acceptable to you? Because its not acceptable to me. I dont want my tax dollars to go to any of those things or anything like it. Thats why I am against the mandate.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Or Solara, GM, Chrysler,...

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

The SCOTUS should strike down the individual mandate because it's unconstitutional. To force you to purchase health care insurance from a "FOR - PROFIT" company is when they've got you by the short hairs. Remember, the insurance companies have lobbyists that will bribe future congresses to do their bidding, once they have forced customers. Besides, insurance is one of the main reasons care is so expensive. What we should have is single payer like every other developed country!

If you give health care to all; paid for through taxes; and remove the "for profit" component; you would save 30%+ right out of the gate. Some of the things you do need to spend money on to supply health care to someone is doctors, nurses, hospitals, drugs, medical equipment, clinics, etc. The one thing you don't need is insurance companies. They offer no service except to jack-up the costs and provide a return for their investors at patients expense. Through sheer volume, we could self insure ourselves at a much cheaper price and more efficiently.

Think about it. The only way an insurance company can make money is to collectively overcharge their customers the percentage of profit margin, over and above their expenses. The expenses include the paying of claims, but also include, executive pay and bonuses, employee pay, benefits, taxes (maybe not), Marketing and Administrative Expenses ( you even have to pay for their TV ads), utility costs, maintenance costs, and much, much, more; that are passed directly to the patient on top of already high actual health care costs.

A 2004 economic study published in The New England Journal of Medicine determined that a national single-payer healthcare system would reduce costs by more than $400 billion a year "despite the expansion of comprehensive care to all Americans." I'm sure that figure has increased since then.

I think the cartoon at the bottom of this page says it all -

http://www.healthcare-now.org/whats-single-payer/

Cheers :)

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

But of course this is not really about Health Care. Only superficially.

This is about making President Obama a failure.

Take his health care legislation and shoot it down in the "activist" Supreme Court.

Take his appointment of executive office leaders and block, pigeon hole, filibuster and pocket veto everyone you can.

Sparky, you are correct about how we can fix health care. Unfortunately, Repubs been blocking it for over 20 years when they shot down "Hillary Care" and then they failed to pass any solution themselves even though for nearly a decade Repubs held majority in both House and Senate, while also holding the White House.

They just don't want it. But They also don't want Obama to succeed. Even if that makes the American society worse off.

Talk about unpatriotic!

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Hillary Care also had a mandate that required you to purchase "For Profit" health care that was unconstitutional but her plan at least covered everyone. Obama care does not. I don't buy into the spin the media spews, claiming "They just don't want Obama to succeed". The R's & D's are more aligned than they would like you to believe. It's more about the money and who can be bought-off ........... which is most of them on BOTH sides!

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[-] 0 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

an " activist court" MAKES law. that is not the role of the court. the surpreme court decides whether or not a " law" is constitutional or not. just because legislation has been signed into law , does not make it constitutional. that is what the court will decide.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Just call "balls" and "strikes" as justice Roberts said in his confirmation hearing? Roberts is undermining his own words.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I just asked my retired mom what she pays for health insurance.

Here's the breakdown:

$90 month - Medicare (pays 80%) - single payer

$225 month - for profit supplemental insurance from AARP (pays 20%) UHC

$39 month - prescription coverage (pays a portion depending on drug)

This reinforces my statement above; that single payer does it much cheaper.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I would hope that people would still be allowed to purchase their own insurance if they choose to buy something better than what the single payer system will pay for, and that healthcare providers can opt out of the single payer system.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I don't see why you couldn't buy supplemental insurance as a rider. As far as healthcare providers, don't they get sick too? If so, then they should be included with the rest of Americans ..... IMHO.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I meant opt out of participating in the single payer system as a provider.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I'm sure you could; but work might get a little thin if everyone was on single payer system. But hey, I don't make the rules and single payer probably won't be implemented unless we have a revolution. Insurance companies give too much money to lawmakers on both sides to prevent it from ever happening. Sorry I misunderstood your question.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

My GUESS is that they will kill the mandate only as a way to seem to take the middle road. This will make insurance companies raise their rates to cover this loss.
All of your ideas are good - BUT none can be put into law because of t he corporate power that killed Hillary's plan and single payer - corporate greed.
The first step must be to get rid of money in politics- 1) get rid of corporate personhood
2) get rid of Citizens United
3) get rid of Buckley

The People For the American Way found 74% of Americans
want to vote for candidates who support an amendment.

Koch and the tea party and ALEC have the money –
and the government –
and they use them.

We have
the people -
and the vote -
and we must use them


Join the our NYC
Corporations are not People and Money is not Speech Working Group
………….( even if you are not near NYC )

www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/NYCRDWG
http://bit.ly/vK2pGI
regular meetings Wednesdays 5:30-7:30PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • Excellent Post!

  • You're right. Dump Citizens United. Worst case of Judicial Activism in 150 years. Corporations are not people -- I don't care what our Supreme Court (5 to 4) says. History will show this Supreme Court is one of the worst.

  • There are no corporations buried at Arlington National Cemetery.

[-] 1 points by georgeisthegreatest (0) 2 years ago

so here is the problem with the health care law. if they can force you to buy insurance what is to stop them from saying its now against the law to smoke because when you smoke the cost of your health care will have to be paid by someone else. its the premise that this law takes away our freedoms. so you have to make a choice do you want freedom or economic security provided for you by the government.because with freedom there is no economic security and when the government provides economic security there is no freedom.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

HCR is an Insurance Agent's Dream.

Everyone has to purchase from the big companies. Its quite possibly one of the most fucked up things we have ever seen.

Instead of Single Payer they gave us this, a big slap in the face. Still think they represent you? OR even care about you?

Guess again.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

I still want a Government Option and/or Single-Payer.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

They may well overturn in and it may be for the best, as they say.

There are two mandates in question. And they should be linked in our conversation because they are linked in fact. The individual mandate to have health insurance and the mandate to care for every person needing care who presents themselves at an emergency room. If one is overturned so should the other.

But then we must come to grips with the consequences. If you have no proof of insurance on your person and you are taken (by some means) to an emergency room, you will not be treated and you will die or whatever non treatment will have as a consequence. People who will indiscriminately torture others for information that they might have will let their friends, neighbors, family members and themselves die, while keeping their heads in the sand believing that it will mysteriously not happened to them or those they claim to care about.

When we get through that futile exercise, we can get on to a more useful one of a national referendum on the best (one of 4-6) of the systems already functioning and producing measurable results in other countries. The lowest cost (from 8-12 percent of GDP) with the best outcomes (life spans and infant mortality rates is a place to start with the evaluation, but other criteria can be included.

This will eliminate much of the politics of lawmakers putting in pork for their contributors. the glory of inventing various bells and whistles and will speed up the process a great deal. The referendum would include the enabling means of making the transition from here to there, guided by a blue ribbon panel of no legislators, no industry people, no bankers, no political think tanks, but will include administrators hired from the winning system to provide the benefit of experience.

How am I doing so far?

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The Supreme Court WILL overturn this law, whether its Constitutional or not. The Roberts 5 are ideologues and that's how they roll. The question is, what will the response be? I think the Obama administration should be ready to go with single-payer (Medicare for all) the instant the decision is handed down. Have a plan ready to launch and go on TV that night and introduce it to America. Something like, "OK, we tried it the conservatives' way using the free enterprise system and the Supreme Court struck that approach down, so we'll have to use an approach that we know IS Constitutional -- Medicare for all."

Then we can all watch as the right wing goes into apoplectic meltdown mode as the rest of the country moves confidently into the 21st century at long last. Can you imagine Republicans campaigning on preventing uninsured Americans from getting access to health care? Can you imagine them campaigning on using the free market after the SCOTUS just told them not to? Or on spending taxpayer dollars on emergency room visits instead of preventive care? Can you imagine an Obama landslide in November? Well, it can happen and SCOTUS is putting the ball on a tee for Obama. All he has to do is put it over the fence.

[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Great idea.

[-] 1 points by enough (589) 2 years ago

It looks like the Court already shot down ObamaCare. That's why Obama publicly chided the Supreme Court one day after it met privately to make its decision on the mandate. Apparently, one the liberal jurors on the Court is a mole and leaked the decision to Obama, who decided to begin damage control before the Court announces its decision publicly in June.

[-] 1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Hell yeah! They denied the will of American voters and appointed Bush and Cheney! They ruled on Citizens United!! They might even declare America a Monarchy!!! Nothing is beneath the Roberts Court cabal of scumbags!! IMPEACH!!!!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

we need public healthcare not insurance

[-] -1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

so,you want to see a doctor for free? not pay a doctor for any surgery you might need?

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

it wouldnt be free.. the government would pay the doctor, the surgery, the prescriptions. like they do for themselves

[-] -1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

really? the govt would pay?????????? where do you think the govt gets its money? from TAXPAYERS.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

and so whats the problem.. i am a tax payer.. you are a taxpayer.. so should not your taxes be spent on something that actually does something besides kill , occupy., enrich the 1%? it make lots a sense to me.. i pay taxes.. i get free health care. makes lots a sense. more sense than.. i m forced to put all my assets on the line and pay forced premiums.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

you destroy your argument,....."I pay taxes and I get free healthcare". if you're paying taxes , the healthcare isnt free. your taxes are paying for it. if you choose not to have halth insurance you are not forced to pay any premiums.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

actually it is.. i pay taxes regardless of getting healthcare. so .. if i pay taxes and get healthcare without any money out of my personal cashflow then it is free. Just like at disney land. i pay to get in but the rides are free. where as the food is not free. you see how that works.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

the taxes you pay come out of your personal cashflow.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

ya

that's right

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

why the hell are people so sick anyhow? I never go to a hospital im 47, neither do people down in south america who live in villages who grow their own gardens. Oh wait I do grow my own vegetables, and sleep with the window open for fresh oxygen. Hmm, maybe I am the only genius I know. hahahahahha

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Sometimes disease is caused by genetics ... just sayin (although, yes, eating plenty of fresh veggies is obviously a good thing) :)

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[-] 0 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

Please organize and riot! You are a Republican vote-getting machine.

Why stop at $50 per hour. I say $500!

Put Walmart out of business!!! Where are you going to work then?

Pro Death! Kill all the conservatives!

Free health care for everyone! We'll just have to ask the Chinese to loan us the money.

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[-] 0 points by enough (589) 2 years ago

It appears that the Supreme Court already killed ObamaCare when it made its decision privately a few days after the hearings last month. (The public announcement will be made in June.) Some say the bad news was leaked to Obama by one of the liberal jurists. He then decided to get out in front of the adverse decision by foolishly criticizing the Court in public. So much for presidential restraint and discretion on the part of Supreme Court members.

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[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

http://dailykingfish.com/2012/04/02/buddysinglepayer/

I love the way this sounds with that Southern twang.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You better hope the supreme court denies it, because if they dont, they just gave the insurance companies free rein to do whatever the fuck they want, because you HAVE to buy it regardless.

A few mergers, some more regulations to drown out little guys, and you are stuck with the big three screwing you hard on price and care.

[-] 0 points by Dc123 (4) 2 years ago

Obamacare will not pass, it is unconstitutional.

[-] 3 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago
  • So . . . we know what you're AGAINST.

  • What are you FOR?

  • How would you fix the problems with our healthcare system? Tens of millions with no insurance. Many more with inadequate health care. Many being cut from insurance due to preexisting conditions. Many many people dying because the lack adequate health care.

  • Dude. We have a problem. And you offer nothing.

[-] 0 points by Dc123 (4) 2 years ago

The Massachusetts health care insurance reform law, St. 2006, c.58,[1][2], enacted in 2006, mandates that nearly every resident of Massachusetts obtain a state-government-regulated minimum level of healthcare insurance coverage and provides free health care insurance for residents earning less than 150% of the federal poverty level (FPL)[3] who are not eligible for Mass Health (Medicaid). The law also partially subsidizes health care insurance for those earning up to 300% of the FPL. These subsidies and FPL-related calculations affect very few of the over 6,000,000 people (see Massachusetts Department of Healthcare Finance and Policy quarterly Key Indicators report) that had healthcare insurance prior to the enactment of the law. The law established an independent public authority, the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority, also known as the Health Connector. Among other roles, the Connector acts as an insurance broker to offer private insurance plans to residents. The reform legislation also included tax penalties for failing to obtain an insurance plan. Massachusetts tax filers who failed to enroll in a health insurance plan which was deemed affordable for them lost the $219 personal exemption on their income tax. Beginning in 2008, penalties increased by monthly increments.[4][5][6]

A Health Care reform that is not big government but controlled by the states.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Thanks for NOT answering the question.

[-] -1 points by Dc123 (4) 2 years ago

Exactly how did I not answer the question? That is the plan Romney enacted, state controlled and not big government controlled.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

So. . . you're FOR Romney-Care?

[-] -1 points by Dc123 (4) 2 years ago

Since he will be the republican candidate, then yes I am for it. It is state run and not controlled by the federal government.

[-] 0 points by Quark3 (54) 2 years ago

If they kill it, the single payer system will be voted in. That is what Obama wanted all along. It's the big picture. He played the republicans.

[-] 0 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

The real question should be why does going to the doctor cost so much that we need insurance to pay the bills. I know that the left like to blame insurance but the doctor rate was going up before there was insurance. I would like to know the cause and effect of things.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

The cause is that the U.S. IS a very rich country in which ON AVERAGE a family of four controls ONE MILLION dollars in assets of which three quarters have been borrowed (that is why the genuine U.S. interest is to make that payback WORTHLESS) so many of us believe and expect medical care to be 100% infallible. Unrealistic expectations begot unrealistic policies that over the years built up medical costs to unsustainable levels. In reality, however, some in the U.S. are extremely rich and have really NO need to support public healthcare and the rest tend to fall easily for the propaganda (fancying being rich now or in the future) by the rich and powerful. It is the same for our K-12 educational system -- the elites do NOT need it so putting in a filter at college entrance and increasing the financial burden are good enough to keep "hoi polloi" out of the good lives reserved for the children of the elites.

[-] 0 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

Yeahhhhh i will have to disagree with you that 1 million dollars in assets is average. But the borrowing the money does seem correct.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

http://2010.census.gov/news/releases/operations/cb10-cn93.html gives: "The U.S. Census Bureau announced today that the 2010 Census showed the resident population of the United States on April 1, 2010, was 308,745,538." http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1170.pdf gives Total financial assets of $47,639 billions as of December 31, 2010. Dividing $47,639,000,000,000 by 308,745,538 gives total 2010 financial assets per capita of approximately $154300. For an average family of four, it comes to $617200 for 2010. Then there is the borrowed money such as mortgages in real estate, business loans, etc. and hidden money, jewelery, in safety deposit boxes, overseas accounts in Swiss banks, Cayman Islands, Bahamas, etc. so the ball-park figure of $1 million under control of an average family of four now in 2012 (stock market also rose from 2010 levels) is not far from the truth.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I have only one thing to say about this then.

ok.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

If you do not feel that the U.S. is a very rich country ON AVERAGE, it may be because of the UNEVEN distribution of wealth. We have de facto segregation by wealth -- there are very different neighborhoods across the railroad tracks or parks and there are very different performing schools which are largely under local funding. Hanging around with many different groups will open your eyes to their wealth and privileges as well as their plight, agony, and despair. Why must our country be like this at all?

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I see an issue with your wording. "The distribution of wealth" . I know there is great wealth out there. mind blowing wealth. But we can take all the money from the wealthy and spread is about and we will still have the same issues today and more because we will have also hurt the middle class. We have forgotten what real poor is. In American is it mostly gone.

I just had a ideal about the schools. A Teacher should not be given the choice of where they teach. They should be spread around where needed. If you think about it this many be a fix to the good teachers only at the good schools. Your pay is based on many factors. i do not know them yet. If teaching is seen has a resource then it should go to the places that need the resources. hmmmm. WORK IN PROGRESS. Do any of you understand what i am saying? or how i am saying it?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

I am NOT saying wealth redistribution is the way to go. That path is extremely problematic. We just need to examine the results of countries which have done that before to answer the question of whether we want to follow them.

I am saying that we need to re-integrate our country so the wealthy people have a real stake in the well being of their less fortunate brethren. I do not believe that it will break the backs of the wealthy people. If the U.S. cannot, which other country can? Besides, there ARE countries which have done it and succeeded in securing more just and prosperous societies for their people. The U.S. is the ONLY huge country that is rather wealthy but there are quite a few of smaller countries which are wealthier and healthier. In the U.S., the wealthy people act as if the other people do not matter but I believe that they are wrong.

You seem to have bought in to the wealthy people's propaganda about hurting the middle class if we do anything to change. Ask citizens of the developed countries to see how they view this issue of hurting the middle class. Many of them will likely get belly-aches laughing at the naivete of the U.S. middle class which believes that fixing health care, K-12 education, infrastructures, fiscal and monetary policies, etc. will sink the middle class. Who will most benefit from these, really?

Let me tell you that I have seen the expressions of foreign tourists about our various "infrastructures" and they seem very surprised that the U.S., the self-anointed leader of the free world, is so primitive and barbaric. I honestly think that they are RIGHT -- the U.S. IS a holdover from decades past and the MODERN world has largely left it behind.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

And who are these great nations you would have us look to?

Also could you clarify for me what infrastructures you are talking about and point to what you claim to be better? Primitive and barbaric is a bit much to believe.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong (not a country but close), Japan, and more.

Health care amongst many is one prominent issue in the U.S. Have you ever gotten into a fight with your health insurance company about what health care expenses they would pay for you? I sincerely think that Obama knows this better than most so-called middle-class Americans who live inside a drum until they get the rude awakening to the brutal reality of for-profit health care which has battalions of claim deniers searching for technicalities to deny health care claims with. Why do we in the U.S. pay so much more for health care and yet our health statistics are so much worse than other countries which spend far less? My answer in two words: "Stupidity and Arrogance." We pretended and still pretend and yes, cadavers were swept under the rug where they festered and fermented till we can smell the stench.

I strongly suggest you taking a trip out of the U.S., perhaps a cheaper option of someplace close by such as Canada and really connect with the people there and find out how THEY live their lives. For example, they have efficient, safe, modern, and clean subway systems and they do not haggle with their health care insurance companies while lying in their sick beds. With their national health care, they would probably laugh till they get a well-deserved belly-ache at the mountains of paperwork that the U.S. produces to shove around who should really be paying for health care while cadavers are "effectively and efficiently" being produced to "American Standard." Do you recall where this phrase appeared?

Some would say that some Canadians come to the U.S. for health care and that proves that the U.S. is superior to Canada in health care. Is that really so? The utilitarian principle tells us to look at broader statistics and overall metrics rather than focusing on small number of cases. One reason that the U.S. has been FROZEN for decades is because of this attitude of looking at the world through a microscope so everything becomes incomprehensibly huge. We refused to conceptualize so we became autistic savants who can recite all of the numbers in a phone book without any understanding of human relationships. Our political system is plagued by autistic idiots.

Another example is mammogram procedure. Why should women be clamped with really COLD HARD plates on their breasts to FLATTEN (yikes!) them for a good look? Is that not primitive and barbaric torture?

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

No i have not had any issues at all, but then i have not needed any major ER time either. The one time I did go to the ER I had no Insurance and it costed by 4K. Also i will look into what these nations have. I did look at Denmark. On the face it reads well, I also read about the strike to get more money for the doctors, But the government was not sure where the money was going to come from. But then that is old news back in 2008 or 2009. either way I will keep an open mind and look and read.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

If I have prompted you to keep your eyes peeled and open mind cranking, I am greatly gratified because a journey to enlightenment and bringing paradise closer to material (NOT the eternally spiritual opiate) reality starts with just those steps.

Reagan signed into law the mandate that forced hospital ERs to treat patients REGARDLESS of their ability to pay. With profit-driven health insurance in other health care areas, poorer people are driven to ERs in droves, effectively clogging it and ER services are not cheap at all to provide. Our ERs' waiting time is unnecessarily long (Disney World had ways of making rides' waiting time more efficient and bearable - hospitals can learn from that). For example, why can we not stagger physicians' working hours to provide for coverage on weekends so the more mundane medical cases do not end up in ERs and thus saving money? Why can we not have more publicly funded walk-in-queued clinics to treat the run-of-the-mill medical cases rather than having people pack ERs to the max? Hospitals are extremely BAD places to pack people because of potential contagions so allowing people to self-select whether to go to ERs or a clinic can presort the cases.

Companies have been doing just-in-time deliveries for decades. Why can we not do the same with just-in-time services medical or otherwise? Most of the people waiting for services in a queue are just WASTING their time because the providers are too stupid to give them a chit with an ordinal number on it so they can re-form the queue just in time for services to be provided. If the number being served is posted prominently or available wirelessly, people can plan their times even better. We can even rent out the spaces originally slated for accommodating people waiting in queues in service centers to food or entertainment vendors to keep the people milling around for services fed and entertained and perhaps even make some money for the services provided, medical or otherwise.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

Do not forget that Mandate was from the Democratic controlled Congress. As for the hours that doctors work, will most the clinics with in a Hospital likes normal day time hours, because the people working them want to have as normal a life as possible while still helping others. As far as the walk-in clinics go there are a few around here. I personally think there should be a walk-in clinic at every ER. You get looked at fast and either sent to the ER or to the Clinic. I think that would save money. Efficiency is the issue when you are trying to make the most money in the lest amount of time. But for a Doctor this issue it maximum red tap and safety not only for the patient, but also to try and be protected from any lawsuits. That makes things very slow.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

Obama and Nancy Pelosi really twisted arms to get the PPACA passed and Obama used up much of his political capital only to get a law with no public option or single-payer. Both Republicans or Democrats indulged in partisanship and tried not to compromise with the opposition. Both parties deliberately pretended not to understand the opposition's viewpoints to cater to their constituencies. Both are forgetting that they are ALL AMERICANS and that our U.S.A. MUST have higher priority than any party NO MATTER what party it is or what their constituents say or feel. On that count, I can say that both parties have been UNPATRIOTIC.

[-] 2 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I then have only one thing to say to that.

TERM LIMITS. I know it is not a fix, but it is a start.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3428) 2 years ago

The individual mandate was from the Democratic controlled Congress but it happened because some factions of Democrats themselves were playing for their own states' gains and eventually the Democrats had to cave in to corporate demands (you see that corporations have pulls on both of the major parties) to pass it. At the time, Obama was still believing that compromise with the Republicans and the wayward Democrats was still possible and he let the whole thing be cooked in Congress for a long long time. Then we got the burned bacon. However, huge raises in health insurance premiums in California and constituents' pressure goaded Nancy Pelosi and eventually Obama to commit to another attempt and the bill barely made it out of Congress and was signed into law. However, it has the burnt marks and is a mongrel law. Thanks to the politics of the wayward Democrats and the even more corporate-interest-driven Republicans.

The PPACA is indeed a breakthrough achievement however it is tainted with corporate interests and will likely be partially struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court.

I view medical professions as a calling so only normal hours for medical professionals are as ridiculous as firefighters and police working only normal hours. The real problem is probably the American Medical Association which lobbies for the medical doctors.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

The only Compromise that the democrats like is when the Republicans agree to all their demands. That is when they claim there was a compromise and Bipartisanship.

It needs to be stuck down. Saying that not all is bad in the law that was passed.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

The cause was Jack Kennedy; the moment he said that doctors should make more than the typical $20. for an office visit, the Hippocratic oath went right out the window. Financially, it's been downhill for the patient ever since. Now we have doctors charging hundreds of thousands of dollars for surgical procedures performed in just a few hours.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

Do not forget that the cost of insurance for a doctor is mind blowing because of the lawsuits that have happened.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

It's more than that, much more... years ago insurance companies were not permitted to invest in stocks; today we also pay for their losses on Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I think you mean that they DID invest in stocks. It seems you are only see GREED. It is like the Hippocratic Oath you used. You make it sound that Doctors only want to get RICH. Now there are those that are this way but many more have ethics and care and do want to help. But no one should do it for free. and they do have to buy protection from lawsuits. Doctors are leaving cost to much to be a doctor anymore. There are many things that need to be corrected. To me starting at the Insurance level is not the correct fix. Insurance is a symptom of the problem, they are not this cause.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Yea I agree, exactly. First we must address the cost of healthcare which, by and large, is astronomical.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I would like to see a study done on the price of the bill when you have to go to the ER. What the price break done is. Why it is priced this way. What cause it to be priced this way. how much if any profit is there. And after that maybe we can work on a fix.

[-] 0 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Not sure about that but I know the cost of ICU is about 10k a day, and that's just for care.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

You may know the cost but not the why to the cost. That to me is the issue that needs to be looked into and understood.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Normal, part of the problem is that all things related to the medical field are excessively inflated beginning with medical textbooks and tuition. I have a friend who who owns his own business making surgical kits and it's unbelievable what those kits cost. It's no wonder that he's a millionaire. Why are items and services inflated? It begins with the idea that we can capitalize on desperate people..sort of the way religions do. When someone is sick, they don't shop around for the best doctor like they would in buying a car- they just go quickly and then are stuck with whatever the doctor charges.Same with pets and vets. Ironically, medical tools were actually of better quality years ago than they are today and yet they charge more for them. Even the machines that monitor vital processes are not all that reliable ( as scary as that is). Patients pay outrageous amounts for disposable booties, gowns, aspirin, etc... So, the question is which specific industry began inflating all these prices? I don't know for sure but during the 80's when managed care companies became the norm requiring physician contracts, etc... prices shot through the roof. The industry tries to make us believe that it's because they are offering better, cutting edge care, but that's not really true. I just think there are more tiers to the system now. Doctor's offices don't even bill their patients anymore..a third party does and often they are located out of state and have no knowledge of the patient or doctor. I don't know whose at the top of the greed chain...probably big insurance? All I know is that ultimately, the patient pays a heck of lot more for less of everything.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

That is my point. We know there is high cost but why. Until we really look into it, it is then all hearsay and the blind blame game we are in right now. I am a practical person. Show me the cause and the effect and I can understand the issue and then we can work on a fix. If in the end it is only greed that is the cause then you would see a uprising from both the left and the right. More them likely it is a little of everything. But you can not really fix anything until you understand that the cause or causes.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Well, I did my best to show you several causes. But, ultimately it boils down to the industry as a whole capitalizing on desperate fearful sick people. I've said this a million times on this forum and I'll say it again...UNTIL people start adapting a preventive lifestyle and quit using the doctors as ' safety nets' for fixing every petty ache and pain, the industry is going to continue to gouge because the demand is there. Managed care is a problem, big insurance is a problem, big pharma is a problem, but they are all so intertwined now, feeding off each other - including our government officials. So, the best way to end this is for the patient to become their own proactive health advocate and start making choices that support a healthy lifestyle, mind, body and spirit. We've got to quit thinking in terms of having quick fixes all the time. Quick fixes are expensive and they drive up the cost of healthcare while lining the pockets of those at the top of all these industries. Find a doctor who will teach you how to take care of yourself and prevent illness instead of using doctors who only know how to prescribe medicines. I can't emphasize that enough! I spend my money not on health insurance but on healthy foods, supplements and my wonderful Integrative/holistic/preventive doctor who sees me once or twice a year for a checkup. I spend thousands of dollars less each year than anyone does who has insurance.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

Do not forget that when a quick fix does not work or the meds we want do not work then we want to sue to millions of dollars to get rich and blame the doctors. Also the lawyers get rich also. There are so many factors it will be hard to see the truth. You used BIG on everything but Government. there you said officials. It is BIG government that makes the regulation (RED TAPE) that all have to follow.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Yes, you're right. The government has allowed us to become victims of everything by kowtowing to everyone's eccentric complaint. Granted, some are justified as in many medical suits. But, there is no doubt that our courts are tied up with the most ridiculous complaints while pedophiles are being released with a slap on their hand. It's as if we have completely lost any commonsense. Too many of us abuse our rights without any concern for how this impacts others in the long haul. Government ( in my opinion) is synonymous with Big corps. When someone tells me they work for the gov't., I just assume they are really working for some large corp.
There's definitely abuse of rights, abuse of power, abuse of privilege. It's a shame that we have chosen to put our values in the trash.
I think that one of things that escalated our competitive greed was the feminist movement and how corporations responded by paying both men and women less while increasing their productivity. This is a loaded topic and I don't have to time to discuss it in great depth this morning. But, ultimately, we, as a nation, we were not better off and everyone pays the price except the corps that now have 2 slaves working longer and harder for the price of one. Don't misunderstand, I'm all for equal rights...but it's pretty clear that corps capitalized on abusing women's rights.
I think a lot about how my father, who was not wealthy at all, was able to support us on his single construction wage with a nice house, 2 cars, 2 kids. It was just assumed that when he applied for a job that he would earn enough to support his family. Businesses just assumed that men needed to make enough to do that and responded. After women entered the work force, when men were interviewed, employers often assumed that he had working wife ( employers would ask them too!) and could therefore, pay the man less. As a result, both adults were forced to work in order to afford a most moderate lifestyle. When they had kids, both parents were working and the children paid the price. Corporate America still has not evolved from our gender biases and has contributed greatly to the competitive dog eat dog mindset in the rat race we all try to survive every day.
Sorry to ramble on ..but I would like to hear your thoughts on this topic. Gotta run for now...busy morning in the rat race.

[-] 1 points by Normalperson1 (119) from Indianapolis, IN 2 years ago

I do not agree only slightly. We allowed ourselves to be victims on false promises from Government. We re-elect people that we know have lied to us, We accept this because that person may have moved money into things where you live. We all say that congress is bad and needs to go but then in the same breath say but NOT MY Representative in Congress. They are the good ones. As long we demand that the government fix everything we will always be slaves or surfs to the Government. They paid for our vote and even if you did not vote they in a way paid for the no vote also. They do anything to stay in power. The first thing that needs to happen is term limit in congress. Heh I think we should put on trial any congress person and president at the end of any term limit to prove that they did not abuse that position for person gain. That might help clean up the system.

I do not know if this is true about women and men or not. I do know that women were and at times are paid less with the same skills then a man. there is proof of this. I do not agree that men got paid less, More likely it was that the pay raises simply did not go up with inflation. or as it is called a living wage. I do know for a fact that we have much more money going out then we use to. We eat out more then we use too, We went from one low cost phone in the home to everyone has phone at a high cost and getting higher, internet and it you want any speed you need to pay a lot more, paid tv that use to not cost anything because all the good shows are not free ( in my case), 2-3 cars. Just an basic apartment is $400 here.

Not sure if i stayed on topic but what the hell.

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[-] 0 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

I have to say that at least in theory, universal healthcare sounds like something that people would want for their fellow citizens as well as themselves. Healthcare is very expensive when it's needed. We each of us might live a long time and never need it, but when we do, look out brother. It'll cost a great deal of money and if we don't have the means to pay, what then? Should the rest of us turn away and simply say that it's a shame, but that's life?

[-] 0 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

the law prevents anyone from being turned away. as for price,.there is medicaid or you can make a payment arrangement with you MD.

[-] 1 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

I'm aware of those things you write, but there are some who don't make the payments, right? But then those unpaid bills are spread throughout the system so we pay for those who can't or simply don't pay anyway. It's a rather complicated thing, how reimbursements to care providers are determined by insurance companies and what balances remain the responsibility of the insured. My state has an insurance commision that regulates charges and premiums, if I understand this correctly. The insurances determine the allowable charge by the provider and the amount they'll pay for a service.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

if you dont have insurance you can always negotiate a fee for service with a doctor. they will gladly set up a payment schedule.

[-] 1 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

I think we are still paying for those who don't pay. That's the point I'm trying to make. so in theory at least, if evryone has health insurance won't my rates come down?

[-] -1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

under obamcare, no.also, under obama care, you'll get less care, a panel of obama appointed people will decide whether or not you get the care you need.

[-] 2 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

How is a panel going to decide what care I get? The panel could approve what's going to be reimbursed, I suppose, but the medical people and I would decide if I get the care I need.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

a panel will be deciding whether or not you even get care. it wont be up to you and your doctor.

[-] 1 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

What will be the operating guidelines for the panel; that is, how would they determine who gets care and for what diagnoses?

[-] 0 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

any decision will NOT be between you and your doctor. the govt appointed panel ( 12 non doctors) will decide on your care, whether or not you're worth the care ( age will be a factor). do search yourself,.the bill is long , very long. use key words in your search.

[-] 1 points by badreadnaught (55) 2 years ago

Thanks, po.

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[-] 0 points by rbe (687) 2 years ago

3 things that should be outside of the grasp of the market immediately: food, shelter, and healthcare. You need all 3 of those to live, and you shouldn't have to depend on market forces to live on the planet that you were born on.

[-] 0 points by hitintheheadgirl (-73) 2 years ago

Even more reason to leave them with the private market. We don't need government fucking up the important stuff. Let them run the parks.

What you really mean, is that you shouldn't have to earn those things; someone else should earn them for you. You want government because government is powerful enough to make someone else buy yours, not because they do a good of anything. If you took what someone earned directly, it's stealing and you'd go jail. But now if government can do it for you, that's the ticket.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

lol

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I wish you guys would pay more attention.

I've had to link this too many times.

http://wendellpotter.com/2012/03/the-end-of-health-insurance-as-we-know-it/

Stop pretending it works. It doesn't , and they know it.

I read somewhere that if nothing is done, by 2030 premiums will surpass average wages.

[-] 0 points by hitintheheadgirl (-73) 2 years ago

No, they won't. See, extrapolation isn't the only way to predict the future. Shocking, huh?

Really, you can't in your little occutard head imagine that not happening "unless something is done"? Things that can't happen, won't happen all on their own. We'll adjust in ways you can't envision, that's what'll happen. It won't be just the "smart people" in government that save us.

Healthcare inflation is being caused by too much money chasing available resources. The reason there's too much money is that the users in the system don't give a fuck what things cost because the bill either goes to an insurance company or the government.

The reasons people are having a hard time keeping up are the above mentioned inflation and that we have too many low skill people in the economy. Exchanging lawn cutting services into money and then trying to exchange that money for the services of a 16 year trained professional doesn't work real well. The more people in this bind we carry, the harder it is to carry them. Yet liberals want the border to remain open and will smear anyone that sees a connection as a racist. It isn't the only pressure, but it's an important one and liberals trade emotion for reason and get it wrong, again.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Another bozo that didn't read it.

How in the hell did you get lawn mowing involved?

This is just plain off the wall.

Here's one more. Be sure not to read it....................:)

http://wendellpotter.com/2012/03/lack-of-leadership-at-the-top-of-corporate-ladder/

[-] 0 points by hitintheheadgirl (-73) 2 years ago

Healthcare inflation is caused by too much money chasing healthcare. The reason there's too much money is that the users don't care what it costs because it flows through insurance companies and government. Seriously, ask someone over at the junior college.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I don't have to. I talked to the lady in billing........:)

That's what you should do, as well as actually reading the links.

Education is important young lady, but really should have someone look at that bump on your head, you're acting confused, and repeating yourself.

[-] 0 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

''45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage'' ~ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/ --- Americans die while so called ''pro life" RepubliCONS laugh and celebrate. 45,000 deaths annually means 900,000 in the last 20 years. Just imagine if some foreign terrorist did that to us. The USA would start a war if they tried. Yet, here are domestic RepubliCON terrorists doing it every day and nothing gets done about it.

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[-] 0 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Well . . . I guess that means that -- despite their professed pro-life stance -- Republicans are really Pro-Death, or anti-life, or ??

[-] -1 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

Th record shows they are both. Unfortunately, many Democrats and others are too afraid to call them out on their hypocrisy. As an Indy, I have absolutely no qualms about doing so as you can readily see above. By the way, I recommend that you read Professor Anthony Sutton's books about how the RePUKEblicans of Wall Street financed Marx, Lenin & the Bolsheviks, and Hitler. It is because of his truthful historical disclosures that he was blackballed and was not allowed to teach in college again. And yes, he was a conservative.

[-] 0 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

I predict the healthcare reform act will be upheld, but it's definitely a close call.

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[-] 0 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Yes, we get in the streets and get SINGLE PAYER!!!

It will be the obvious solution and frankly this is the way they should have gone but dems got cornered by the just say no GOP.

Just the thought of this today sent a shrill up my body. There's no way in hell we continue with the broken system that we have had. I will fight tooth and damn nail for this issue.

You will see me the street!!!

[-] 3 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

How did they get cornered by republicans. That bill was passed with no republican votes. So why didn't your party vote in single payer?

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Simply because of the Blue Dog Dems, just like the repugs rino faction. It's rare in politics to get 100% consensus on anything except for these useless money pit Wars!

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

But I fail to see how that was the republicans fault. Did they threaten those blue dogs?

[-] 0 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

They GOP is the Lock Step Party of NO. Other than doing nothing in Washington and being elected to do that, the GOP at fault? Yeah.

Or is my logical thinking too much for you? The facts do stand. All on their own.

The Puzzler

[-] 1 points by hitintheheadgirl (-73) 2 years ago

Better idea: Earn it yourself. Your neighbor already has his bills to pay, he doesn't need yours too.

[-] 0 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

you belong in the street.

[-] -1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 2 years ago

Absolutely I do. And it's there I have been many many times. In the street we can really get charged and realize this thing is big. Many who come here to this forum don't seem to get that, they think this is the whole movement. It's just a small little piece but all these pieces make something that can not be denied.

We will see change, it's already happening. It's awakening, once awake, we don't give up, we stay in, we keep pushing. It is working. And we are working it.

[-] 0 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

A house call in Panama is about 35 bucks if you aren't a dual citizen getting the 25-40% discount on most all services and goods.

Surgical procedures in India, that would cost six figures here, can be done often for less than 10,000 USD.

Whatever needs to be done, it should be with complete and utter disregard for the Constitution so that it does not come as a shock to the masses.

[-] 1 points by Craptastic41 (16) from ANIAK, AK 2 years ago

I think I'll pass on a Panamanian or Indian doctor.

[-] 1 points by po6059 (72) 2 years ago

if you dont like the usa, you can move to some utopia that doesnt and will never exist.

[-] -1 points by Umong (0) 2 years ago

I want it to be struck down just to watch Nancy Pelosi try to explain her way out of this

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

If uncle sam demands all the citizenry purchase healthcare, we must throw the bums out. The constitution provides nothing to compel private citizens to purchase products in the private market. This move by the Marxist/leftists seeks to control us all, cradle to grave. Obamacare needs full rejection, and go back to real market reforms, and if necessary, an amendment to our great constitution.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

But HOW do you propose that Americans -- ALL AMERICANS -- handle health care needs?

[-] -1 points by Kirby (104) 2 years ago

Find a doctor and stick with him or her. If your broke and down and out, your local government will help. Everyone has access.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Kirby, shame on you for spreading mis-information.

Tens of millions have no health care. More have inadequate health care.

It is well documented that thousands of Americans die every year because they lack adequate health care and preventive medicine.

Wake up.

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[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

Your lame reply does nothing to fix a problem. Any ideas, or just name calling?

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[-] -2 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

Why don't you form a group plan that includes all the health care perks you want and have everyone who wants to participate join the group and pay for the plan through premiums. That way, those who wish not to participate can join a group that has the benefits they want and you can join a group that has the bennies you want. Why should I have to be FORCED pay to participate and belong to a group I have no desire to belong to? Where is MY freedom to pusue happiness and associate with a group I CHOOSE to support and participate in?

[-] -2 points by mikechex (-5) 2 years ago

You're completely clueless. Obamacare is about Govt. control over the freedom and liberty of Americans. You are small minded and short sighted and don't really understand all that you say you want the Govt. to do. Single Payer and Govt. option and all these other ideas are just more Govt. empowerment and less freedom and choice for Americans.

If you want a nanny state please move to another country.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Oh yes, the oh so authoritarian tyrannical regime in Canada has government healthcare for all. Total tyranny Canada is!

[-] 0 points by hitintheheadgirl (-73) 2 years ago

Where you dog can get an MRI faster than you can because the government didn't socialism the veterinarians. LOL.

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[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

But if everyone who disagrees with you moves to another country, you'll be all alone, in the dark.

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[-] 0 points by Truth4Life (43) 2 years ago

Yeah, we are all sure Canadians, Japanese, Europeans, and others all feel their governments are dictators for guaranteeing equal access to health care. Talk about being clueless!

[-] 0 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

... and your solution to expanding the healthcare for millions and decreasing or eliminating the 90% of bankruptcies that are health care expense related /... ?? What do you have smart boy?

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