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Forum Post: Why Would OWS Spend $29K to Send a "Delegation" to Egypt?!?

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 24, 2011, 2:17 a.m. EST by jls (13)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

RE: the OWS move to send a "delegation" to Egypt to help monitor their elections...at a cost of $29,000. THIS is the very thing that is beginning to turn off quite a few of us 99%, who are otherwise absolute supporters. The movement is in its infant stages here in America, with a HUGE list of things to focus on here, and it's already looking to spend money sending people overseas to monitor the Egyptians with their elections?!? WHAT A JOKE!

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[-] 4 points by Danaan (96) 12 years ago

Take that 29000 and use it to get your asses over to Washington. You are in the wrong place with your protest. Sacking the government and arresting the bankers is the only way. And only a huge mob can pull off that stunt. The last thing Egyptians want is another bunch of Americanos to tell em what to do.

[-] 4 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

They aren't doing it, last I heard. After the eviction, change of plans.

[-] 4 points by jls (13) 12 years ago

So I understand. However, I think the fact that it WAS the plan in and of itself warrants discussion on why OWS would feel that this was appropriate in the first place.

[-] 4 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

I didn't think it was a good idea. I don't think that is what the vast majority of people donated for.

Myself, I've only sent money to the media team. I think getting the message out there is really important.

I brought supplies to Zucotti Park; cash I gave to the media team.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I was utterly confused when I first heard of the trip, and I have been doing a lot of investigation into this today.

As far as I can tell a US Governent official (Maria Dayton) proposed the trip to some of the OWS members who thought it was a good idea. Whether or not they realized she was a Goverment official is unclear.

[-] 2 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

The eviction did not change their plans. The trip was on as of 2 days ago. It was cancelled yesterday as a result of the controversy surrounding the trip. It did not seem to have widespread OWS support and the Egyptian people asked OWS not to come. The election is likely rigged and they did not want the OWS delegates to lend legitimacy to the puppet governemnt that would be put into place through the elections.

[-] 2 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

I had seen a letter on the NYCGA site about four/five days ago informing the Egyptian contacts that they were calling off the trip.

So did they compose that letter before it was actually decided at the GA? if you know...

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I did not see that letter; howver, I do know that the decision to cancel the trip was not made by the GA.

On Sunday, November 20, Matthew Naim Abdullah and Ruby AMatulla posted on the Movement Building Working Group their justification for still taking the trip, so as of then, it was still on.

On 11/22, there was a GA meeting to cancel the trip; however, the vote failed and so the trip was still on. There was lots of online disussion about how fair the vote was though.

On 11/22 news of the postponement came through an article posted on the Atlantic Wire. Movement Building Working Group Member and OWS talking head Kobi Skolnic was quoted in the article. I assume that he (and a few others perhaps) unilaterally made the decision outside the GA.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-calls-its-egyptian-expedition/45343/

[-] 3 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Monitoring Egyptian Elections? We needed monitors for the 2000 and 2004 elections ourselves. This country is not in any position to show anyone how to run an honest election.

[-] 2 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

This is odd.

There's an article in the Guardian that comes up on Google.

When written on November 15th the article was:

From Tahrir Square to Liberty Plaza, the occupation continues | Asmaa Mahfouz and Maria Dayton

But now Maria Dayton's name has been removed and it's just:

From Tahrir Square to Liberty Plaza, the occupation continues | Asmaa Mahfouz

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Wow!

So why would Maria Dayton want to distance herself from Asmaa Mahfouz is an Egyptian activist and one of the founders of the April 6 Youth Movement? Because the US Govt co-opted the April 6 movement. It is funded by the US Congress throught NED (National Endowment for Democracy).

[-] 2 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Maria Dayton is the US Government official who proposed the Egypt trip to OWS

I did a bit of armchair research and discovered that Maria Dayton, who proposed the Egytian trip to OWS, actually works for the U.S. Government. The hope of the U.S. Government is that deligates from OWS will travel to Egypt to lend legitimacy to the fraudulent elections thus proping up a puppet government to replace the one that fell. Maria Dayton has worked with the United Nations regarding election monitoring.

Read the following:

  1. 11/21/11 post from Matthew Naim Abdulla and Ruby Amatulla explaining why the Egypt trip needs to go forward (despite OWS controversy and the Egyptians telling OWS not to come). a. “We were involved in co-organizing the proposal for the Egypt delegation, along with Maria Dayton and others on the Egyptian side.”
  1. Did the US Co-opt OWS in Order to Legitimize Egypt’s Flawed Elections? by Jacob Levich: http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/levich221111.html

a. “a New York City “General Assembly” was bamboozled by what may be a State Department and/or NED initiative aimed at granting legitimacy to Egypt’s flawed election process.” b. OWS in New York City agreed to send a delegation of election monitors to Egypt after a mysterious activist flew in from Washington with a proposal in hand. The New York City OWS swiftly approved the initiative at a November 10 “General Assembly” in Zuccotti Park and allocated $29,000. c. Maria Dayton, the apparent author of the proposal, boasts of connections to the U.S. State Department, the National Endowment for Democracy, and Freedom House on her LinkedIn profile (since deleted but preserved by Doherty, at http://cld.bangpound.org/2G423i2t2R2f2q1q331K Each of these institutions has a longstanding history of subverting and co-opting popular movements in the interests of U.S. foreign policy.

  1. LinkedIn Profile of Maria Dayton dated October 14, 2011: http://cld.bangpound.org/2G423i2t2R2f2q1q331K a. Contract Author for the U.S. Dept of State (led by Hillary Clinton) b. Regional Program Manager of Vital Voices Global Partnership (grew out of the U.S. government’s Vital Voices Democracy Initiative established in 1997 by First Lady of the United States Hillary Rodham Clinton and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Besides Clinton, honorary chairs include current and former U.S. Senators Kay Bailey Hutchison and Nancy Kassebaum Baker. Funding has come from a variety of sources, including individual donations, corporate sponsorships such as from ExxonMobil, and the efforts of the Clinton Global Initiative. In 2002 Vital Voices was asked by First Lady Laura Bush to drive the effort to supply school uniforms to the many girls returning to school for the first time following the U.S. led overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

  2. Alec Exposed: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Maria_Dayton a. Ms. Dayton is a DC based activist who specializes in democracy, civil society, and human rights issues in the Middle East. She has extensive experience developing, implementing, and assessing various development projects with the United Nations and other local organizations in many countries including: Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Israel/Palestine, and Rwanda. As a project manager for the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development studies in Cairo she worked closely with the director and Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Saad Eddin Ibrahim, in the development of many civil society programs including: the 2005 Election Monitoring project, the Egyptian Democracy Support Network

    1. Global Research article: Occupy Wall Street and “The American Autumn”: Is It a “Colored Revolution”?
[-] 2 points by powertothepeople (1264) 12 years ago

Thanks for the information.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Here is the rest of it.

  1. LinkedIn Profile of Maria Dayton dated October 14, 2011: http://cld.bangpound.org/2G423i2t2R2f2q1q331K a. Contract Author for the U.S. Dept of State (led by Hillary Clinton) b. Regional Program Manager of Vital Voices Global Partnership (grew out of the U.S. government’s Vital Voices Democracy Initiative established in 1997 by First Lady of the United States Hillary Rodham Clinton and U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Besides Clinton, honorary chairs include current and former U.S. Senators Kay Bailey Hutchison and Nancy Kassebaum Baker. Funding has come from a variety of sources, including individual donations, corporate sponsorships such as from ExxonMobil, and the efforts of the Clinton Global Initiative. In 2002 Vital Voices was asked by First Lady Laura Bush to drive the effort to supply school uniforms to the many girls returning to school for the first time following the U.S. led overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

  2. Alec Exposed: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Maria_Dayton a. Ms. Dayton is a DC based activist who specializes in democracy, civil society, and human rights issues in the Middle East. She has extensive experience developing, implementing, and assessing various development projects with the United Nations and other local organizations in many countries including: Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Israel/Palestine, and Rwanda. As a project manager for the Ibn Khaldun Center for Development studies in Cairo she worked closely with the director and Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Saad Eddin Ibrahim, in the development of many civil society programs including: the 2005 Election Monitoring project, the Egyptian Democracy Support Network

    1. Global Research article: Occupy Wall Street and “The American Autumn”: Is It a “Colored Revolution”? http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27053 a. The “colored revolutions” are US intelligence ops which consist in covertly supporting protest movements with a view to triggering “regime change” under the banner of a pro-democracy movement. b. "Colored revolutions" are supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute and Freedom House, among others. The objective of a "colored revolution" is to foment social unrest and use the protest movement to topple the existing government. The ultimate foreign policy goal is to instate a compliant pro-US government (or "puppet regime").
[-] 2 points by Beca (69) 12 years ago

I agree, we first need to get ourselves together before we start doing anything elsewhere. There are Occupy groups all over the world, and that is fantastic, but we can't be spreading ourselves all over the world when we have such a huge country here, and the root of all the problems is right here at home--the Corporate Cartel aka Wall Street.

[-] 4 points by jls (13) 12 years ago

Agreed. Not to mention that as @powertothepeople correctly points out, those types of discretionary expenditures are likely NOT what most people in this country are donating for. Nor should they be. OWS was a movement born out of the vast problems consuming the United States. While it may very well share global ideals and other common denominators born of a global economic/political/corporate infrastructure with people in other parts of the world, it is hardly in a position to be addressing foreign issues at this nascent stage of the game!
*Apologies for the run-on sentences. ;)

[-] 2 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

OWS is grassroots. The Egyptian movement is years along. They are facing guns, tear gas and tanks. There is nothing we can offer them in terms of experience. Quite to the contrary, they could show us a thing or two.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 12 years ago

ows is not "grass roots". It was planned by van ones, and funded by george soros.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

By grass roots, I mean brand new -- a baby. It started in the middle of September.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

What can they show us? How to rape the women reporters? How to attack the Christians? How to usher in the Islamic Brotherhood? What do they offer? I feel for the Egyptians that want freedom but I am sorry to say they aren't gonna get it any time soon.

[-] 1 points by LoveAndRespect (106) 12 years ago

love and respect, please

[-] 1 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

You got it.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 12 years ago

Egypt will end up being a totalitarian theocracy.

[-] 0 points by Spankysmojo (849) 12 years ago

Shocker. Spring has sprung.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (413) 11 years ago

The Arab Spring inspired the OWS movement. There was a degree of uncertainty of what would happen when Mubarak was ousted. There was more uncertainty when Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood were elected to rule Egypt. Morsi pressured many pro-Western Egyptian military personnel out and replaced them with pro-Muslim subordinates. This was destabilizing Egypt’s role in the strategic balance of power in the Middle East. No one has been speaking of a domino-effect evidenced by the disappearance of Hussein, Mubarak and Khadaffi. Obviously, the eastern and southern Mediterranean shores cannot be allowed to disintegrate into pro-Islamic chaos.

Fighting for Arab Spring

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-arab-spring-has-been-hijacked/ [right click]

It’s no longer a question about should the military take over the Egyptian government. They have done it. This is a very bizarre development for a democracy: the people could not wait for the next election to get rid of their government, so the military staged a coupe d’etat. OWS could send a delegation now to see how that works.

Military Intervention in Egypt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/04/egypt-revolution-coup-military-intervention-analysis [right click]

Egypt Revolution Redone

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/mohamed-morsi-egypt-second-revolution [right click]

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

Being that OWS is still in infancy and therefore fragile, it is not wise to spend $29K to Egypt when it is needed right here at home. This also would be a hugh contradiction since isn't that what people are upset over that we are not keeping the money circulating here in the U.S. for its citizens.

[-] 1 points by usernameah (36) 12 years ago

Yes, I agree, horrible idea to spend resources needed so vitally here in some foreign country fighting a civil war. Isn't our government wasting enough tax dollars abroad in an effort to bring "democracy" to them? Why does OWS need to jump on their bandwagon?

[-] 1 points by LoveAndRespect (106) 12 years ago

They aren't going. They are returning the money to the General Assembly. Please let everyone know the truth so we all stop spreading rumors & propaganda.

[-] 1 points by w9illiam (97) 12 years ago

Ya I know it is also worth noting that the two leading parties in Egypt are both ultra conservative Fundamentalist with intimate ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Yes. That is what we (OWS) were going over to support.

[-] 1 points by w9illiam (97) 12 years ago

I hope your joking.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I am not. We were going over there to support the military that is currently in power and will continue to be in power no matter which political party is elected. The real power will remain with the military. OWS was going to monitor elections which would have resulted in legitimizing the polotical process that left the power with the military.

[-] 1 points by occupytheworld (55) 12 years ago

I was in Zuccotti, and at the atrium. They had no one go. The members declined.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

http://www.nycga.net/groups/movement-building/forum/topic/how-the-1-within-our-movement-is-disrupting-the-movement/

NYCGA is I believe the actual Occupy Wall Street movement's website. (AApologies to the trademark holders).

Peace Comrades,

After attending the SPOKES, several meetings, and SEVERAL GA’s over the last few weeks, I think its HIGH time we address the 1% of this movement which is working hard to disrupt it. I don’t believe provocateurs are as much a problem as are the: amalgamated EGO’s (those that feel they alone KNOW what’s BEST for the movement, or who ALWAYS feel ‘marginalized/victimized’ in EVERY meeting, GA and SPOKES), the mentally ill (let’s face it they are in this movement big time! I believe that Living in America causes a certain level of mental illness and the continually DISRUPTIVE ONES who care NOT for the process of conducting movement business via meetings, GA’s and SPOKES.

A ‘pat on the back’ or sad to say all the ‘mediation’ or ‘training’ in the world will NOT change these individuals and it’s high time we address their behavior. Are we a MOVEMENT for REAL CHANGE AND IF SO HOW can we continually allow certain ANTI-MOVEMENT AND DEMOCRATIC behaviors and actions from the 1% of this movement to continually work to block its growth and cohesion?

Here’s my Proposal:

  1. We don’t OUTRIGHT ‘ban’ anyone-but we DO disallow anti-movement, process, behaviors and activities.

  2. We give a date say December 1, 2011 where we lay out a 4 strike violation process that get’s disruptive, negative people out of crucial meetings, ga’s and spokes.

  3. All facilitators MUST take anti-racism/oppression/diversity trainings BEFORE they are allowed to facilitate. (Marginalized folks need to be heard in meetings and many times the ‘process’ of meetings doesn’t allow it).

  4. A system must be put in place for ACCOUNTABILITY in this movement-meaning that folks need to be WORKING! OWS is (NOT) HRA or a ‘welfare’ agency, so this sense of ‘ENTITLEMENT’ that many seem to have must be confronted and addressed. We have MANY folks doing actual work DAY to DAY and can prove it. But then again we have folks doing little to NOTHING but ‘expect’ money, or other resources. We have BOTH individual and collective responsibilities to grow this movement. It starts with US!

  5. Disruptive, Disrespectful and Abusive language and/or physical/sexual harassment threats and abuse must be dealt with IMMEDIATELY and any individual who commit any of these abuses should be IMMEDIATELY banned from that event, meeting, action etc.,

  6. PARTICIPATION IN SPOKES AND GA’s-because OWS is so ‘open’ to anyone attending a GA or SPOKES we need MORE of a accountability system in place to make sure we don’t just have anyone ‘off the streets and or ‘agents’ with anti-ows motives to BLOCK or play a role in it’s disruption). How do we determine who’s who-we need to consense upon it.

  7. Respect for , collaboration with OTHER GA’s around City and NATION-OWS is just ONE of over 11 ‘OCCUPY movements around the city and over 700 in the country and many more around the world. Just the OCCUPY Movement technically started here doesn’t mean we should ‘dictate’ or plan any city or national actions without collaboration and solidarity of other GA’s in the city, country or world. When we do plan or take certain actions WITHOUT COLLABORATING with other GA’s it creates a sense that OWS is NOT in solidarity with other GA’s, marginalized communities and affected groups.

  8. ADDRESSING RACE EFFECTIVELY-On the hand we have marginalized people who are by and large UNDER represented in groups, facilitation and other places in this movement and the question of ‘priviledge’ ‘ while discussed is NOT being effective addressed and dealt with, but on the other side is White Guilt which is often take to the extreme of being patronizing and utterly ridiculous. Ok it’s time that our White Brothers and Sisters learn more about SLAVERY, RACISM AND COLONIZATION and how each played and continually plays a role in today’s economy, culture and society but it’s also time that people of Color STOP thinking that EVERYTHING is ‘racial’ or that we are somehow ETERNALLY AND ALWAYS ‘victims’ which is backwards and condescending in itself. We people of Color can DIRECTLY and help grow this movement by not only FULLY participating in it but also working within our own communities through the various GA’s.

  9. This is a COLLECTIVE movement, NOT a movement of EGO’s or anti-COLLECTIVE actions and behaviors. NO ONE IS GOING TO GET THEIR ‘WAY’ all of the time and while we have a INDIVIDUAL responsibility to help it GROW .we have a COLLECTIVE responsibility to help it THRIVE.

  10. BREATHE AND THINK-Before you act or speak! This movement is about MANY things but I would hope it all revolves around LOVE and JUSTICE.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 12 years ago

10 points - so well thought out - so original - so creative -
so complicated!

I KNOW THIS IS HERESY -

If OWS operated as most democratic entities in the world worked,
virtually none of this "reinventing the wheel" would be needed. No stack - no kindergarten hand signs.
A person raises a hand - The group leader calls on someone - they speak. next!

Votes are majority rule. period.

If the 200+ year old US Senate gets trapped by a 60% rule,
how can we NOT get trapped by 90% or 75% ???????????

The wheel works - wheely it does -
dont waste your time - or our momentum reinventing it!

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I feel your pain. I don't participate in the GAs; however, I have tried to organize a much smaller group of dog park protesters. It was the most frustrating thing I have ever done.

It is very, very difficult to control people when you have no police authority. OWS seems to use peer pressure to control. I totally hate peer pressure, but I don't have any good ideas for an alternative control mechanism.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

This is why I don't like to criticize OW, but the Egypt thing with the State Department apparatchik seems to be a bridge too far.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

This is not the actions of OWS supporters. This is the actions of US Government infiltrators who know exactly what they are doing. It is alll carefully calculated. Americans continue to be way too trusting of their leaders. They simply cannot conceive of betrayal.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Kobi is more or less a publicly known OW non leader. The State Department woman, that I don't know. Are people so blind they can't see she's government? This isn't even concealed.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Americans are a trusting bunch. If they see the word "democracy", they think the organization is good. They highly value friendships -- over values. Many align themselves behind their friends instead of to the movement.

[-] 1 points by TheMaster (63) 12 years ago

I think you guys need a military wing. OWS camo uniforms with a jaunty beret would make a nice statement.

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 12 years ago

I was mad at the fact that they were asking money from the beginning.

Protesters don't need money. Just food and maybe a few electric generators here and there.

[-] 1 points by raines (699) 12 years ago

OWS is an arm of the US government.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Because it was a leaderless movement, there was a leadership vacuum. US Government infiltrators filled the vacuum.

Most OWS supporters are sincere.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

OWS has been infiltrated by US Government officials whose goal is two-fold. First they wanted an OWS delegation to go to Egypt to lend legitmacy to their elections and their new government which is a puppet government to replace the former puppet government. Second, the US Government will undermine OWS by creating divisions surrounding the Egypt trip especially once the story is leaked (which it already has been).

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Any and every movement will have infiltrators. And they can't all be so easily identified as this Ms. Dayton. How does such a person get to make proposals regarding thousands of dollars of expenditure? Just gets off an airplane, catches a cab to Zucotti, circulates her plan and presto! it's passed? If this is what we gef from the AG process, it needs to be changed.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Kobi Skolnick brought her into the OWS Movement Building working group. The mission of that working group is to "create a communications network among occupations worldwide".

It is very, very easy to infiltrate the OWS government. Because the movement was leaderless, there was a vacuum created. The US Govt filled that power vacuum with their moles.

The GA system is totally undemocratic. The few that control it sway the votes. There is no accountability for who votes. All that is required is that one be in downtown Manhattan at 7 pm four nights a week. So a mole gives a call to the other moles to make sure to be there. The majority of OWS supporters don't ever get to vote, because they are unable to be physically present.

Consider this. There is no accountability for the OWS money which is controlled by 3 people. No one has seen so much as a bank statement or receipt. Is there a million dollars there? Is there no money left? What is it being spent on? No one knows.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Who are those three people? Google Kobi Skolnick. I guess he is one of the movement's non leaders.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

The ladies allegedly are 21-year old college students and the man is a tatoo artist.

Kobi Skolnick seems to have joined OWS with a specific purpose in mind -- to organize the Egyptian trip and to introduce Maria Dayton.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

"Kobi Skolnick seems to have joined OWS with a specific purpose in mind -- to organize the Egyptian trip and to introduce Maria Dayton."

I went to the GA site. it seems that no one in OW is very upset about this. I am wondering if there is more than meets the eye here. In the meanwhile OW is doing some grat stuff. There are always going to be infiltrators and people with hostile agendas around. The Egyptians didn't want OW Americans comning over there and meddling in the process. Being associated with Americans, and for G sake, an Israeli American would be the kiss of death, maybe quite literally.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

You are correct. No one is upset.

No the Egyptians did not want the Americans over there to prop up the military government. America supported the last dictatorship 100%. That is what America does -- meddles with international movements to install dictatorships that partner with American corporations so the coporations can make billions. Dictatorships are so much easier to deal with than are democracies.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

I think potentially you are discussing two separate issues -

-- embezzlement of funds, this is a crime punishable by law

-- infiltration of the organization to subvert its message by any means

and the solution to the second is simply a matter of understanding precisely what we believe, what we hope to achieve, and how we hope to do so.

Toward that end subversion of the infiltrator - reeducation - should be a main goal.

: D

[-] 2 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Maria Dayton works for the US Government. I doubt whether she would be up for re-education.

I don't believe any funds were embezzled although I have not looked into that. It isn't clear whether or not plane tickets were purchased before the cancellation of the trip, but the trip itself was approved on November 10 by the General Assemly -- an alleged direct democracy voting system.

I believe the GA voting system to be useless because it requires the voter to be present in downtown Manhattan 4 times a week at 7 pm. That leaves most people out.

[-] 2 points by Brandon37 (372) 12 years ago

There is speculation that the GA voting system is rigged.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

It would be so simple to rig. Voting is public and anonymous. The rulers plan in advance how the vote will go and all the infiltrators show up and wiggle their hands on cue. If it looks like the vote is going to go the wrong way, make a call and bring in some more bodies.

[-] 2 points by Brandon37 (372) 12 years ago

I would not find that to be a reliable system.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

What do you mean by reliable. For what? Fair democracy or to rig.

[-] 2 points by Brandon37 (372) 12 years ago

For the very reasons you stated above. I was agreeing with you. I see it to be too easy to manipulate.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I have been on the NYCGA working group forums and am absolutley shocked at the numbers of OWS supporters (or infiltrators) who support this incredibly undemocratic method while at the same time are complaining that our current system is not representive (which it isn't).

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

looks too damned easy

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

It is incredibly easy. Most scams are quite simple. Look at Bernie Madoff. It was so obvious.

Most people are followers. They want to belong. OWS supporters are no different.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

That's why I never believed that OW is leaderless. For whatever reasons, genetic, environmental some combination, whatever-- some people are leaders and some people are followers. Organizations that i have known- even friendships, all display this fact. In a perfect and ideal world that would not be, but that's not where we live. Now, keeping the leaders sort of on the down low i do understand because a movement that is seriously threatening trillions of dollars of stolen wealth, well, some folks would and could arrange some pretty nasty coincidences...

[-] 2 points by MercD (20) from Spanaway, WA 12 years ago

Almost sounds like each area needs to vote in a representative to Manhatten to vote...

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Alternatively, each geographical area could have its own mini- direct democracy and they send the tally into the main GA.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Tell me cqn any Tom, Dick or Harriette come along and vote? block?

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Yes. It is a voting system that has not been used since the ancient times. It works well in a small community where everyone knows one another and lives geographically close.

To get a proposal through requires sizing up the crowd and making a call for 10, or 20 or 30 infiltrators to wave their hands on signal. There is no registration. I am not sure how the blocking works.

I can't bring myself to participate in such an undemocratic system.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

Sounds az little like New England Town Meetings, I don't know if they still have them in small towns and villages in Vermont or Maine, but they used to. Yes, it meant that everyone knew who everyone else was, what their opinions were worth and so forth. lIn practice though, how many bad decisions have been made?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/cubas-electoral-system/

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Lots of bad decisions. $10,000 to occupy & repair a foreclosed house that actually had an owner, $5700 spend on tea and herbs, another $3000 on a scam billed as predatory lending and so on. Lack of research and lack of business sense are the norm in decision making.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

Perhaps I used the wrong term. Misappropriation of funds might have been more accurate.

I seem to have lost the link for the discussion where this issue came up, but as I recall there was the allegation that in fact this measure did not pass the GA voting process despite efforts to stall the vote until sufficient numbers of those opposed had left, and that once the vote was taken - at about 1 Am - the measure failed, and it was noted as having been otherwise, indicative of a clear intent to subvert the popular will.

If what I had read was accurate, it would be interesting to know more about each individual who voted in favor - what do they believe, where do derive their income, What is their family background, who are their network of friends, whom do they call, and whom calls them . . .

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I am also looking for a list of the names of the 20 slated to take the trip. I have asked for this information on the NYCGA forum but as of last night, I had not been responded to. So far this is what I have:

  1. Cari Machet
  2. Kobi Skolnick
  3. Matthew Naim Abdullah
  4. Ruby Amatulla

Kobi Skolnick, a 30-year-old Israeli-American and one of the main organizers of the two-month trip; Director of Leadership Development at the Center for World Religions, Diplomacy and Conflict Resolution at George Mason University (CRDC). Skolnick's role in the Occupt Wall Street movement is in managing communications with the media and the protesters' meetings.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I am trying to find out this information --who supported it -- and am coming up against a wall of silence; however it has only been about 2 days. I am also looking for a list of the names of the 20 slated to take the trip. I have asked for this information on the NYCGA forum but as of last night, I had not been responded to. So far this is what I have:

  1. Cari Machet
  2. Kobi Skolnick
  3. Matthew Naim Abdullah
  4. Ruby Amatulla

I also want to learn what method of air was to be used -- commercial or charter and what type of arrangements had been made.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

Keep digging.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

global diplomacy is not a joke. you don't think the oligarchs are actually doing that? who else is going to? http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Paradigm_Shift

[-] 2 points by jls (13) 12 years ago

No disagreement to your basic premise, but how about we get a movement up and fully running in this country, one which resoundingly addresses the myriad issues affecting our citizens right here BEFORE we go running off on costly expeditions to "monitor" the political problems in other countries. It is way too early to be spending limited resources in this manner.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

They would not have been allowed to monitor anything over there. The Egyptian Goverment would not have allowed it.

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[-] 0 points by applepie (17) 12 years ago

please Spend $29K to Send a "Delegation" to Egypt?!?

i think that Egyptians & the world would donate more then $29k to ows usa, for the support we gave them. It would also prove that ows is not only interested in freedom for people in the usa but the world. Then when the usa has elections Egypt will send a delegation here, to report to the world- on this country's rigged elections. And the corruption of the us government- ows world wide, should send delegations , often to other country's- that would bring an immense amount of pressure- down on corrupt governments- training web page http://tinyurl.com/7rvpv43

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[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

This whole thing is damned fishy. Whoever rammed the trip through the GA needs to explain it. From what I'm reading on this page this Maria Dayton is fishy too. These Clinton/Obamoids are not friends of any 99%.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

I am trying to get to the bottom of it, but it is not easy. Those in charge of the OWS Movement Building working group -- the OWS group that planned the trip -- are very uninterested in this infiltration. That is a red flag.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

She and Kobi seem to be sort of cut from similar cloth, official muckety mucks. Well, at least the Egypt scam got busted.

[-] 1 points by monjon22 (508) 12 years ago

Not really. It is still on the table. The trip is officially on hold, I believe. None of the members of the OWS Building Movement working group are shocked or concerned at all. It is pretty scary.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 12 years ago

OW still does great things.

[-] 0 points by btothec (0) 12 years ago

Egypt... pyramids... Ra Ra oooh la-la

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[+] -6 points by Glaucon (296) 12 years ago

It's designed to make the OWS protesters feel like brothers with the Egyptian protesters. When the Egyptian protesters get their asses kicked by the military that is currently taking control of Egypt, the OWS protesters will have a link created in their mind and will compare the US police to the Egyptian military. If you look at the news reports from OWS, you'll notice that just after the pepper cop spraying article, followed an article about the toughness of the Egyptian military. This is deliberate and is meant to forget a link which, in the end, they hope will help demonize the US police. Occupy wants a revolution so it compares itself with revolutions around the world. It's propaganda 101. One day you have this: http://occupywallst.org/article/whom-do-you-serve/ the next day you show this: http://occupywallst.org/article/egypt-rising-against-military-rule-security-forces/

[-] 2 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

trolling BS. the issue here is solidarity, it has nothing to do with the police and everything to do with the fact that every person on this planet has a vested interest in a democratic outcome there.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 12 years ago

Of course.