Forum Post: Why This Movement Fails
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 12, 2011, 8:41 a.m. EST by doru001
(174)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
A successful society or community is based on people who voluntarily cooperate to provide public
goods like laws, government, law enfocement, justice (this is a stable situation and it describes a
culture of poverty). The protesters on the street do not cooperate, and this results in lack of law
and order even on the street they occupy. Finally this results in no practical action at all.
Evidence:
A successful society or community is based on people who voluntarily cooperate to provide public
goods like laws, government, law enfocement, justice (this is a stable situation and it describes a
culture of poverty). http://mail001.blogspot.com/2011/03/open-society.html
The protesters on the street do not cooperate, and this results in lack of law and order even on the
street they occupy. http://occupywallst.org/forum/legal-group-is-pushing-criminal-law-experts-out/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/legal-group-is-pushing-criminal-law-experts-out/#comment-55810
Finally this results in no practical action at all. http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposal/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/if-you-want-to-successfully-occupy-wall-street/
I wanted to say: "this is a stable situation and it describes a culture of success or, in case of failure in doing so, of poverty", sorry.
If you want to win, you must have the desire and willingness to give your life for your idea.
The last time Americans show that they are cowardly and stupid nation. You can not do anything really serious and difficult, than you're used to in his own past life.
You are grown fat and stupefied, half of your population gays and weaklings. You are losers. It's time to payback, morons!
You can't imagine how people change when they are hungry.
This movement is effecting our entire world already! The results will continue for decades in ways we can not even imagine.
Hope so. There is some work required, you know. Nothing comes easy.
Actually this movement is failing because the majority of its members lack the basic skills to manage their own lives (balance check book, pay credit card bill/mortgage on time, not making purchases they cannot afford....etc), and unrealistic expectations. You cannot build a successful movement based on failures. You cannot fault others for their better wealth managing skills because you lack them.
All men are NOT created equal, clearly. Anyone who thinks you can force everyone to live in the same condition is either naive or brainless.
Natural selection is how things work in this eco system. I'm skeptical a few thousand people who lack basic survival skills can change the laws of nature.
I think it is unfair to describe the "majority of its members" monolithically. The organizers came from Adbusters.org, a foreign organization that likes to sponsor anarchists at the WTO, and probably wouldn't mind seeing an end to capitalism.
The first occupiers were a mixture of anti-capitalists and kids who hung out because they thought Radio head was going to play.
Then one of the occupiers manged to get pepper sprayed on camera and the hard left from America showed up, along with an assload of Ron Paul supporters.
Then the Unions showed up, lead by the SEIU, who are as much about preserving the status quo as anyone.
Then the mega wealthy Democratic spokes people either showed up or showed support (Michael Moore,Nancy Pelosi, Tavis Smiley, Cornel West) trying to drive more moderate democratic supporters and the message towards supporting Obama's failure of a jobs plan.
Now there a healthy chunk of average joes who are pissed off at our government ( just like the Ron Paul Supporters) have shown up.
I've also noticed a healthy contingent of jihadi/anti Israel jew haters in the mix.
In other words, its a very mixed crowd, which is why forming a message is damn near impossible.
You are moron. I'm slick of people making sweeping assumptions. Did you go and interview all of these people? NO.
No, you are wrong. What happened is that technological change in the economy could not be managed with old industrial political institutions. The 1% just robbed the country. Or you might argue that suddenly all intelligence, skills and education gathered into Bush - like people.
You're suggesting that prior to the technological revolution, or to go further back, the industrial revolution, the wealth and resources of this world was evenly distributed and all men were created equal?
There are certain things in life that we cannot change. There will always be an elite class that control the majority of this world's wealth and resources. This dates back to before our ancestor's ancestors. You really think you have what it takes to change that?
I'm not part of that class, in fact, I'm far from it. I barely make my bills at the end of each month, but I take responsibility to pay them. I don't expect other people to bail me out, and I don't spend what I don't have.
"I don't expect other people to bail me out," That's the pt. Wall st. elites did ask for the rest of us to bail them out. They failed and then got rewarded for it. Is this the way Capitalism works? They get the profits and we are handed the losses? That isn't Capitalism friend its Fascism.
"There are certain things in life that we cannot change. There will always be an elite class that control the majority of this world's wealth and resources."
Well, of course, the American, French and Russian revolutions--along with every other successful revolution in history--demonstrate all too well that the "elite class" can indeed be changed. You're just lazy...
NO. I suggest that you can't govern an economy which moves at the speed of light with a vote every 4 years, which was set 200 years ago on paper.
Plus, Mr. Elite, if American elites, like the idiots in the Tea Party, fail to do the right thing, the entire civilisation could fail, as it did in so many instances in the past.
"The protesters on the street do not cooperate, and this results in lack of law and order even on the street they occupy."
Ironically, of course, the founding of this country was based on rejection of the powers that be. The free speech being exercised by #OWS is only criticized by those who disagree with its goals.
No action at all? Wrong. This movement is growing. There is an executive committee election, and delegate meeting election, and convening in July 2012. Source: http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/
Good, I hope that you will be able to monitor and control these new representatives better than you were able to monitor and control your government and Congress.
Well, the probabilities are much higher, because there's no corporate influence obscuring the representative process...
You should verify that by monitoring them in real time and by participating regularly into the process.
Well, most of these meetings aren't being held at corporate offices in major cities--and most people won't be wearing suits and ties, I'm guessing. But you raise an interesting point: Perhaps do videos and have them posted on YouTube of the process for full transparency.
YES!
RAIN the next 2 days, Everyone back to Dad's house on the Hampton's
Actually doru, I think you have it all wrong. You're missing the heart of the matter. Here's what I think is really going on. This is the reason the movement is SUCCEEDING http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-thing-you-should-read-before-you-vote-on-any-d/#comment-69905
I would like it to succeed, but I don't see it happening.
Oh, it's happening! There is absolutely no doubt about that. This is transforming before our very eyes from a movement into a revolution.
Managing your community and your country is hard work. You should do something constructive, like force your government to be more transparent with its decision making process, take over part of this decision making process together with other people.
It's happening as we speak. We just need to be patient. Check this out http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/
Yes, but YOU should monitor and verify and understand what those representatives do. If not, they will behave just like your current representatives in the government.
If you come to the park and see how the general assembly works, you'll feel better about this.
We should use the Internet. I am in Eastern Europe. We should use the new technologies to control our governments.
One thing that I was discussing with another poster: make all legislation fully readable and understandable. Translate "legislative jargon" into accessible prose and plain English. Lobbyists and lawyers write intentionally obscure, turgid prose that is hard to sort through or understand. That's not useful. People should be able to look at a bill without having worked on Capitol Hill for 10 years (as I did, unfortunately)....
YES! Absolutely! This is part of the vicious cycle: people don't understand the issues, so they don't contribute to their government (public decision making process), they don't contribute, so they do not learn basic economics and politics. So they don't feel responsible for their own society and livelihoods.
This board is sure pretty crazy for a movement that's "failed."
Yes, there is a rush right now, but they will succeed just as the Russians or Egyptians have succeeded: a superficial change.
If it is so superficial, then there is truly nothing for you to be so concerned about or discuss here is there? =)
By the contrary. My life depends on its success.
So far... I'm just an outside observer. But this movement has much more organization, integrity, & transparency than the Tea Party movement ever had... even to this day. This movement is here to stay.
Come on ... of course you can't compare them. But you forget that the Tea Party serves the top 1%. They are in power. They lead the world. These people in the street, on the other hand, need to create a society which is able to control its government in real time, not every 10 years on some important elections. They need to find economical policies to take them out from the current crisis. I suspect that they won't do that. I am very worried that they won't succeed. You should be, too.
Every structure (physical or social) is built on a foundation... I believe the foundation of the Occupy Wall Street movement is very solid. More solid than the Tea Party. The demands on their Web site are clear & demand consideration. But they are only in the 1st phase of their construction. There are some brilliant young minds behind this movement that will emerge into our daily political operations.
The foundation of the Tea Party is a vertically integrated social network of interests. Such societies last, like in China, or in Egypt. The hope in the US is that people will voluntarily cooperate with their equals to better control their government, just as their ancestors did. However brilliant those young minds are, they need to be monitored and supported by a very active civic society, or else they will have to give up like so many reformers.
Aaah, It appears that you have changed your thread from "will fail" to "could fail". I guess everything "could fail". If that was your original thread... I wouldn't have bothered to post.
You should bother, because I tell you again: if we don't have many people actually CONTRIBUTING, on a REGULAR BASIS, to the GOVERNMENT, then it will fail.
Did your thread just trick me into joining this movement? ;-)
I'm doing my best ... :-)