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Forum Post: “Why Should I Have to Pay for Your Welfare?”

Posted 1 year ago on Oct. 10, 2012, 4:14 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

“Why should my hard earned tax money fund something that has nothing to do with me and which I don’t agree with?” We hear these phrases all the time, especially from the right. In my opinion this is a wrong and extremely cynical way of looking at it.

Our free ride society

First of all, let’s look at the society we live in today: It’s a complex, highly advanced technological society built up by generations of people thru hundreds of years. People have been building infrastructure, contributed to science, developed technology, developed efficient ways of manufacturing etc etc. Because of all this effort we now enjoy a more wealthy, advanced and efficient society than ever. All of this, lots of it built and created long before we were even born, we’re now enjoying despite having little or nothing to do with contributing to it ourselves. In other words, our contributions, no matter what we do, are microscopic compared to what we receive from society. We’re enjoying the results of generations of people’s work gradually building a modern society – we're enjoying an enormous free ride.

With this in mind we see how incredibly meaningless it is to say “Why should I have to pay for your Medicare” or something like that. Our personal contributions in taxes, labor or whatever, are extremely small compared to the benefits society provides us.

(Now, there are people who are struggling to get by and do not feel that they’re enjoying all these goods. I totally understand that, but that has to do with the unfortunate concentration of wealth. I’m talking about the society as a whole. The western countries are more efficient and wealthy as ever, the problem is that we have a system that allows for more and more accumulation of wealth.)

Exploitation and corporate welfare

This “Why should I fund your Medicare” – attitude is also diverting attention away from the really important issues in terms of funding and access to recourses.

One of the hallmarks of capitalism is that the means of production are privately owned by some individuals, while others do not have this ownership. In other words, some own the means of production others are using. So it’s a system in which the ones using the means of production must sell their labor to these owners in order to have a decent life. The owners can then make a profit from other people’s work by just owning. This happens when the value of the worker’s pay is less than the value that was added thru his/her work in the paid hours. That creates a profit for the owner of the means of production who did not create the value, but still gets paid in the form of profit. This profit is hence capital for future investments and more profits. So, the capitalist is making money simply by just owning, not adding or creating value.

This exploitation – making money on other people’s work – is much larger and much more important to focus on, than you contributing thru taxes, making sure poor children don’t starve.

What’s really ironic about this topic is that the ones who are really getting most of the welfare and support are not poor single moms or people on Medicare, it’s CORPORATIONS. For decades corporations have been getting enormous sums in subsidies, bailouts etc. Remember the multibillion dollar bailout in 08? Billions of taxpayer dollars went straight into the hands of some of the wealthiest people in the US. Now that’s some serious welfare right there.

If making money off of other people’s work bothers you so much, then you should at least focus on a main problems: exploitation and corporate welfare, not poor people getting food stamps. To put it this way: As long as the wealthy are getting more and more recourses into their hands by exploiting workers and getting enormous subsidies and bailouts from the government, people should have no right lecturing the working class and poor for asking for welfare programs.

What our real focus should be on

So forget about this “why should I pay for your welfare” – attitude. It’s cynical, superficial, and it diverts attention away from the real problems in society. We should acknowledge that we live in a more modern and wealthy society than ever, and the way to deal with such a society should be to create a more participatory democracy based on solidarity. A society where the economic institutions and important recourses are owned in common and controlled democratically by the participants, with economic equality and where we take care of the ones who need it so that everyone can enjoy the benefits of this wealthy society.

134 Comments

134 Comments


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[-] 8 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

What’s really ironic about this topic is that the ones who are really getting most of the welfare and support are not poor single moms or people on Medicare, it’s CORPORATIONS

This is huge. You have to show them any and all areas that have been privatized from point A to point B and put in front of them any and all issues of fraud that one encounters.

One of the things that needs to be pushed is that those business' that steal from Medicaid (etc.) need to pay back the full amount and then some. I have seen many instances where they only pay a portion of what is stolen.

[-] 3 points by Karlin (350) from Nelson, BC 1 year ago

So true!! Here is an alt news article quote:

"A new report from Citizens for Tax Justice shows that of 30 Fortune 500 companies that paid no federal income tax up through 2010, 26 still didn't this year - thus making more money after taxes than before - with the tax rate for the other four less than 4%. All told, despite $205 billion in profits, they enjoyed an overall negative tax rate of -3.1 percent, thus costing the rest of us $78.3 billion in the form of the tax subsidies they got to avoid the 35% tax rate they're supposed to be paying"

More> http://www.commondreams.org/further/2012/04/11

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

It’s not very surprising. The wealthy staff government to a large extent, of course they’re going to make sure that the policies favor them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVPWNo4rcM&feature=plcp

[-] 1 points by Karlin (350) from Nelson, BC 1 year ago

Yes they do, and also corporations staff the regulatory agencies of the government , like sending an oil executive over to work for the EPA.

Arms length they say? Ya, but still shaking hands!!

And - I remember reading about how the FDA heads retire [early] and then they get cushy high paid jobs with Pharmaceutical companies.

and vis versa

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Thanks!

[-] 2 points by Karlin (350) from Nelson, BC 1 year ago

You are most welcome... Aside from that - I wonder why are some of my posts looking like that - different font and strung across the page with a scroll bar?? I have not seen that for anyone else... am I doing it wrong?

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Tab is not your friend. No indent.

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Youse funny.

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Yeah.........I didn't see all that in the text. It was still funny.

[-] -1 points by WeThePeop (-259) 1 year ago

At least you have the butthead part down really good, so you have that going for ya

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago
[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Vote Obama in swing states so at least this guy and the Ayn Rand-disciple won't get more power.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

If we were dealing with straight players, I'd agree. But Cons are in no way straight players. Make your statements during the primary, don't give the crooked Cons a chance in hell during the general!

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What do you mean exactly?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Thanks!

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

No problem :)

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

BTW - Tweeted - thx again = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvlot5VMLGI

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Nice. Spread the word! :)

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Every day. {:-])

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Glad to hear. Keep it up.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And you as well.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Thanks. Our ideas of democracy and justice will prevail eventually :)

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

As long as enough people can be awakened and get educated initially - and then spread the awakening/education. It is a continuous process.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Exactly right. Changing people's minds is important, and it's not done over night.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

And we find ourselves at this very point in time - with major portions of the public around the world saying - enough is enough - this atmosphere is ripe for awakening and educating.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Right again. The way I see it we're now witnessing the beginning of the end of capitalism. That doesn't mean that I think it'll be abolished in the very near future, it's going to take time, but we're seeing the beginning of the end, I think.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

A change of systems - that is what the Mayan calendar suggests - as their calendars were set up ( in advance ) to be for a representation of an age - not just as a record of days. So their last calendar ends at the end of this year - signaling for them the end of an age and the new beginning of the next age. There are other predictions of the ending of the current age - though not as precise as to the placement of an exact date - the bible is another predictor of the ending of an age - and many of it's foretellings of what the future will be like ( as it was written in pieces over two thousand years ago ) are startling.

So yes - I have the tendency to agree that we find our selves at the ending of an age/system. Will it be clean cut? Not likely. The transition will no doubt be fuzzy.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

There will be serious changes coming, but that has nothing to do with the Mayans and the Bible, it has to do with people starting to realize that our current system is intolerable.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

A storm is a brewing - has been gaining size and strength for a very long time now. It will be something to see when it breaks. ( don't discount inspired writings - the average human makes active use of about 5% of their gray matter ).

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Glad you liked it :) I agree, this is a good lecture. You've seen his speech at Occupy Boston, right? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Not yet actually - So thanks for including the link = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago

the government needs money to fund infrastructure programs

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

The people purchasing these corporations products should understand that they are the ones who pay the CEO's salary, his bonus, his stock options, his retirement, his company car, and all of the other benefits that he and management so arrogantly believe they are entitled to.

The people could literally dictate policy to the CEO's of the largest corporations if they only realized what power those dollar bills in their pockets really had..

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

You contribute to the corporations by purchasing their products of course, but there’s much more to it. As mentioned taxdollars are also contributing substantially, as well as profits made thru exploitation. Your dollar bills aren’t that powerful, because there are many other factors here.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Where do the tax dollars come from? From production. $15 trillion GDP, $4 trillion in taxes. Buyers have 4 times more power. Cut any corporations profits by 10% and see how closely they begin to listen.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Sure. All I'm saying is that there's more factors involved than what you decide to buy when out shopping. also remember the enormous accumulation of wealth. 1% of the population own almost 50% of inv.capital. That means a lot of concentrated power at the top.

[-] 1 points by WildMan (27) 1 year ago

This is the most useful site if you want to track where the money goes.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_budget

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Which links on this “usgovernmentspending” site gives the best overview of funds and bailouts to U.S. corporations? Do you know?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Thanks for that!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Yep - trickle down economics helped get us to this disaster that we are living - and now it is being followed up with trickle down aid.

How much has trickle down economics helped the 99% ( living breathing people ) = NOT AT ALL.

How much is trickle down Aid helping the 99% ( living breathing people ) = NOT AT ALL.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7058) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Corporations can only exist because government shields shareholders from the true responsibly of ownership, this CU video tells it pretty well, you may have seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY

I look at it this way corporations are the children of government, and it is government responsibility to make sure they learn manners and how to behave in society.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Corporations shouldn’t just be regulated, they should be dismantled. They are illegitimate institutions.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I have seen it but, it is always good to see it again.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

We are seeing an offshoot of trickle down economics - trickle down aid - it works as well as the prior - not at all for the people.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Right on. I am so tweaked about the inability to get what is needed to the people that need it.

I'd look at the groups that altering law "do gooders" for the sake of the people that are taking the tax dollars and keeping people that should not be living on their own in homes. They cannot afford to take care of these people 24/7 when 24/7 is what they need. Specifically mental health but medical too. These are the newer con artists.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I can tell that you are really PO'ed as usually you are more clear in your analysis - but I can see you need to take several deep breaths - then be more verbose - as you did not allow yourself enough time to be clear.

I love it when you are passionate about something - you always end up supplying great information and insight.

But this one clearly has you PO'ed - beyond that point at the moment - I can relate as I am truly pissed off at what is and is not happening in this country due to greed and mismanagement.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Hmmm....my little paragraph up there is all shot out. But, I'm too tired to do it properly. I will fix it up tomorrow.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Not a problem - I recognized the passion - and - fully expected a substantial follow-up.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Medicare fraud and the home health services

Better article on 33 of those arrests Now, notice what the lawyer's response is for Kallen-Zury. “We’re going to fight this indictment,” said Kallen-Zury’s defense attorney, Michael Pasano. “It’s built on the testimony of liars, addicts and people who have cooperation deals with the government.”

And these are her clients, " women and men with psychological illnesses, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorders."

Here is the kicker, these people pretend to be liberal. They are not. You can tell the difference because there is liberal and then there is "we have opened our minds so far that our brains fell out". They operate as "do gooders" but they aren't. They are doing good as far as making sure that they get their profit from the public coffers.

I encountered an organization while I was looking for any kind of help for someone who has an adult daughter that is mentally disabled and mentally ill. She can become extremely violent and is a danger to herself and to others. She cannot hold down a job and once her mother passes on she will be on the streets and may be in and out of jail. She needs to be in a facility with long term care. 'Cept, that is no longer an option. She has counseling but it is pretty useless. She isn't going to retain any of the information. Counselor gets paid though. So, instead society has to wait until she kills someone or harms lots of someones to get her off the street. 'Cept she will be found incompetent and then be released back on the street. We can start the entire process over again. I hold that organization responsible because they are altering legislation in my state to ensure that this not just happens but continues.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

There's My GirlFriday. {:-]) Yes the abandonment of the mentally ill is a crime.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Thanks.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

This country/society has fallen so far from the light - the light of human kindness concern and care - it is truly a tragedy.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I don't think it was ever there to begin with. Deinstitutionalization had a lot to do with it. There is this push to get people out of nursing homes as well as a push to privatize state run nursing homes. It isn't just mental health care it is also medical care.

This is promoted and sold to the public as being better able and qualified to do the job. But, they can't. It interferes with their profit. The profit that they are making off of our tax dollars. I think that we need to say to these people, "You said that you could but you cannot-GTFO."

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

It is a mad mix of things - Some individuals absolutely need institutional care - but in the past some institutions were horrific. Others such like My Mom and step Dad - can live fairly well at home on their own but need physical help/support and receive very little. The health care system has always been woefully under employed. The Health care system has always been poorly administered. The Health care infrastructure is woefully inadequate.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

I agree. I find it odd that they are intentionally screwing our nurses over and pretending that there are not enough nurses at the same time simply to depress wages in some areas.

We don't need to go backwards but we cannot stay in one place or this place. We cannot allow them to use the past as an excuse to not go forward.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Greed at work in another for profit system. Fucking over society.

[-] -2 points by WeThePeop (-259) 1 year ago

Some individuals absolutely need institutional care !!!!! You are 100% correct sir and all liberals need that

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

U got your user name incorrect - should be something more like = IthePoop ( as in you are piled high and stinky )

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Wha....Wha... What she said!

WS Bailout!

Now bailout my bathroom flatscreen, Mother Fucker!

[-] 2 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 1 year ago

I just tell those people - you are not paying for welfare.. your tax is paying for retired congress men and the endless wars..(2 billion a week) for training america haters how better to kill us, you are paying for the destruction of america.. not the poor and down trodden soo SHUT UP

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Yeah, that's one way of putting it.

U.S. foreign policy has been quite expensive..and deadly..

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

GR8 Post & thanx 'sff80' for all you do here !!! Very 'handy' post !! Solidaritet !

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

And thanks again for your kind words. Always good to talk with you, my friend :)

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Most People Don't Understand Money. Here is an Audio Interview with Stephanie Kelton which Explains 1) Money 2) Money Issuer 3) Money User 4) Economics of Monetary Policy/Fiscal Policy 5) Problems with Politicians not understanding Money (Rs & Ds) 6) Pete Peterson and the Peterson Foundation Propaganda.

http://harryshearer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ls121028le_Show_-_October_28-1.mp3

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I didn't open it. In your own words and summed up, what was said?

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

No one else replied, so I guess I have to provides some bullets:

http://harryshearer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ls121028le_Show_-_October_28-1.mp3

Most People Don't Understand Money. Here is an Audio Interview with Dr. Stephanie Kelton, Associate Professor, UMKC, which Explains 1) Money 2) Money Issuer 3) Money User 4) Economics of Monetary Policy/Fiscal Policy 5) Problems with Politicians not understanding Money (Rs & Ds) 6) Pete Peterson and the Peterson Foundation Propaganda.

We had 8 Depressions on the Gold Standard - and none off the Gold Standard. If you have 23 Million People Unemployed or Under Employed, who want to work, and you have the means to put them to work as the Creator of the Money - It is a No Brainer when there is $2.5 Trillion Dollars worth of Infrastructure Work that needs to be done - To put those people to work through government Programs.

People don't understand that money represents relationships, one person has a debit and another person has a credit, they are both part of the economy, the US Government is the Creator of Money and is a huge part of the Economy, and it's spending is very important in fixing the Economy.

Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernake have repeatedly stated that there is no limit to the resources of the US Government. This is because our government is the creater/owner of the US Dollar. We are currently at 100% of our GDP in debt. Japan is at 200% of it's GDP.

Columbia University Lecture Series on the Internet features, Stephanie Kelton, Randy Wray, Warren Mosler.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/10/modern-money-and-public-purpose-2-governments-are-not-households.html
http://www.modernmoneyandpublicpurpose.com/seminar-8-economic-rights.html
http://www.modernmoneyandpublicpurpose.com/seminar-3-the-eurozone.html
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/category/stephanie-kelton

She says she thinks they have won over are have been convincing, Joseph Stiglitz, Martin Wolf, Paul Krugman. I think William K. Black has been in their corner since they seem based out of UMKC.

Peterson Foundation is behind the "Fiscal Cliff" Myth. This is an organizanized Financial Scheme and Propaganda. The talk about Debt and Deficit currently going around politics is harming people.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/10/pete-peterson-has-won.html

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/09/were-not-broke-and-the-clinton-surpluses-destroyed-the-us-economy.html (Two Myths in America, that we are broke and that Surpluses are good for the US)

http://moslereconomics.com/2012/02/21/mmt-in-washington-post/ (budget surplus as a Danger)

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

You should pay my welfare because I want your money, your wealth, your treasure, your resources, your pensions, your infrastructure, your bridges, your inheritance, your capital gains, your work, and your real-estate. I want it all!

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"I want it all!"

The top 1% in a nutshell.

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

I was here first, it's all mine! Nutshell and all!

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

That's a nice picture. And what about the article?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

Well stated. As it has been by thousands of people for over 100 years. What is lacking at every movement in this country around this concept is how to get there from here. These ideas are only new to us but in reality they aren't new by any stretch of the imagination. Occupy is making a good push but we need something that grabs hold of the current system like a virus and transmutates it into what we need instead of what we have. It could be a series of inventions, new community organizations, who knows what thought will take hold and go "viral" or if there will ever be such a thought. We don't lack complaints or ideas, we lack solutions.

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

I have shared some of my own thoughts on how we can achieve a free and just society here.

I think what the Occupy Movement has done so far has been fantastic. In order to get more impact in society it needs to grow more though, so keeping up the work and organizing more people is very important.

I think workers and unions should be one of the main focuses. Getting workers to join the struggle thru striking etc is crucial. When support is big enough there could even be workers’ takeover.

Occupy Your Workplace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jRy5ZIYZok&feature=plcp

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

We need people with vision. As I said, there are libraries of solutions floating around and some are tried tested and true, but bringing them to bear is the task at hand.

[-] 0 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

So what would you like to see happening specifically? Which ideas should we focus on more and how can they get impact?

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

So what would you like to see happening specifically?

Our constitution makes a separation of powers and bill of rights gives separation of church and state.

I would like to see such a separation of business and government, and a separation between military and government.

Our country has made exception after exception for national defense and for business, both of which are supposed to be accountable to the government but currently the scenario is backwards where the pentagon is encroaching on domestic soil and business is getting welfare while welfare for people is being cut.

It is those two entities that have caused our current situation. Of course there are some that can make a compelling case of why my request is absurd but can they disprove that those entities are the largest part of the mess we're in?

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"I would like to see such a separation of business and government, and a separation between military and government."

What? And how should business and military be organized then? How should the economic institutions be organized and run?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

By following the law instead of the law following them. Just as every citizen must follow the law. When was the last time you hosted a dinner party and got a government contract for drones or subsidies for just going to work? Oh.. you haven't? Me either. Get what I'm saying?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

But which laws and rights, property rights included, should be applied? Private ownership or collective ownership? Who should control the economic institutions; how should they be organized?

[Deleted]

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Again with the writing. Please concider presenting your stuff in a more "normal" way.

Most of the problems in society would be solved if we created a real direct participatory democracy including workers' self management, so that people where in control of their lives, and where we shared all the wealth and based our society on from each according to his ability to each according to his need.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I do not understand why - but it seems that some people like putting out an unbroken wall of text - for some reason they do not see that is less than inviting to the reader.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Agreed!

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[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

This is a very unusual way of presenting a text, and it's a little hard to read...

[-] -1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

My Caddy needs gas, my freezer is running out of steaks!!! So hell YEAH!!! Give me your fucking money!!! And hurry up!! I need a new flat screen for the bathroom, Mother Fucker!!

[-] 1 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Luv that

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

It's just a prefect illustration of who's really in charge.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

YEP - the cancer that needs to be excised from the body.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil"

-Michael Moore

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Capitalism - you will never get away from - until you can get anything you want or need for nothing - that would mean like having a machine that you could toss into any sort of matter ( dirt rock shit garbage ) and have the molecules rearranged to give you whatever you want and or need.

Until such time things will be bargained for ( capitalism ) and you can call it what you will - barter trade etc. it will still be the same deal under a different name.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

No, capitalism is gone when workers are in control of production. Anarcho-syndicalism is the way to go.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That is capitalism under control by the masses - it is not an absence of capitalism - just a different system/regulation.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

That's not correct. Ending private ownership of the means of production means ending capitalism. Private ownership of the means of production is totally illegitimate. Capitalism must be abolished and replaced by a participatory democracy where the people control the economic institutions collectively.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Capitalism is a system of exchage - just like any other system of exchange there are agreed upon rules as well as mediums of exchange.

The only difference in any system of exchange is the fairness.

Pretty Fair - not as fair - monstrously unfair.

There is the range of what has been achieved all over the world to this very point in time.

There has been as yet - no completely fair system - ever. But it is most definitely something to strive for.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Capitalism is a system of exchange - within a framework of some individuals owning the means of production and others not. Once the private ownership of the means of production has been dismantled, and the economic institutions democratized, capitalism would be dismantled as well.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I guess at this point in time - that we will have to agree to disagree in interpretations.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"symantics"

Not really. There must be private ownership on the means of production in order for it to be a capitalist system.

Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.[2] There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have been applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[3] There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.[4] Competitive markets may also be found in market-based alternatives to capitalism such as market socialism and co-operative economics. (wikipedia)

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"Again we can agree to disagree monetary systems are monetary systems. You can exchange monetary system for resource system if you like - you can substitute private ownership to public ownership if you like. It all comes down to distribution of resources - fair/equal or unfair/unequal. There currently has never been a fair/equal distribution."

But listen, in order for it to be a capitalist system there needs to be private ownership of the means of production. If there's no private ownership, it's not capitalism. This is not something we should disagree on, since it is a fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

symantics.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

There's no need to disagree, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

If the means of production are not privatly owned, then it's not capitalism, then it's something else: Socialism/Syndicalism, Communism etc.

I talked a little bit about how capitalism functions in the article. If these tendencies are dismantled, capitalism is dismnatled.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Again we can agree to disagree monetary systems are monetary systems. You can exchange monetary system for resource system if you like - you can substitute private ownership to public ownership if you like. It all comes down to distribution of resources - fair/equal or unfair/unequal.

There currently has never been a fair/equal distribution.

[-] -1 points by WeThePeop (-259) 1 year ago

Do not forget to get your free da bama phone. Kind of hard to order some more crack without it

[-] 0 points by WSmith (2091) from Cornelius, OR 1 year ago

Give me MY fucking bail out!!! I already got a phone.

[-] -1 points by LeoYo (5784) 1 year ago

You shouldn't have to pay for my welfare.

There are social welfare states both larger and smaller than the population of the US. Obviously, if a population much smaller than the population of the US can have a successful social welfare state, then a segment of the US population can also have a successful social welfare system for all who want it without involving anyone who doesn't want to contribute or benefit from it. This would go hand in hand with displacing the corporations whose welfare we shouldn't have to pay for by establishing FreeDA/CES.

FreeDA/CES

The FreeDA Cooperative Employment Service is the 501(c)4 organization that would assess the skills of the unemployed individuals to patronize it and match them with a suggested cooperative business plan. Upon acceptance or rejection of the plan for an alternative plan, the FreeDA/CES would facilitate the crowdfunding of the new cooperative business. Of course, each municipality of cooperative communities should have their own branch of a nationwide Cooperative Credit Union to handle both cooperative and personal accounts. With the FreeDA Cooperative Employment Service and FreeDA Cooperative Credit Union established nationwide, the unemployed of each city would be consistently channeled into either newly or already established worker-owner cooperatives, modifying the economic well-being of society at a fundamental level.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/free-democracy-amendment/

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The wealth is very highly concentrated on the corporations and the financial elite. That must be addressed and dealt with. This wealth and power must be stripped from them. Corporations are illegitimate structures; they must be heavily taxed and regulated and eventually dismantled. The economy is all-encompassing, so all the economic institutions must be democratized.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5784) 1 year ago

So rather than build worker-owned cooperatives to replace the corporations, beginning with the masses of unemployed as the initial workforce, we should just sit around talking about taxing corporations?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Starting co-ops etc is great and should be prioritized, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that can, and should be done. There shouldn't just be a talk about taxing the wealthy, it should be done. There's a lot of wealth and power concentrated at the top in this all encompassing economy. This must be adressed and dealt with as well. Striking and eventually Workers' takeover are also things that must be done.

I put together a video regarding these topics here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jRy5ZIYZok&feature=plcp

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

And yet you keep saying that Norway's economy is MUCH more democratic than ours and Norway's corporate taxes are LOWER than ours and the "average/middle class" Norwegian pays a HIGHER income tax rate than ours.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

btw, what do you think about my post? Do you agree with it?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

We need a much more progressive tax system everywhere, especially in the united states where the wealth is so highly concentrated.

Our goal should be to abolish capitalism/state-capitalism, and democratize the institutions in society.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

I just posted this in another thread. And I think it applies to this discussion as well. The discussion was on how much more enlightened and forward and "democratic" countries like France and Germany and Sweden are.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg

I realize it's only to 2005. It doesn't have to be up to date to prove the point I'm about to make.

But LOOK-see how much HIGHER the PERSONAL income tax rates are in those countries you're so excited about compared to the US? Do you realize how MUCH MORE in taxes the AVERAGE person in those countries pays in income tax than the AVERAGE person in the US???

Note-even though the CORPORATE tax rate is MUCH higher in the US-we're NOT conquering "poverty" anywhere near as well as the other countries....which would make it seem STUPID to continue to raise taxes for Corporations when it's producing the OPPOSITE result. Right?

Sweden, France, Germany-they ALL have an AVERAGE PERSONAL income tax rate over 45% of income. Those perks aren't FREE-the taxpayers themselves are paying for them in income tax whether they want or use those services or not. (For example: GERMANY=41%, 15% for one of the many public health insurances (fixed rate by law), as well as a solidarity tax (depending on income) and a 26% social security tax (retirement + unemployment)

Did you catch that? 15% tax on YOUR personal income before you get a paycheck to PAY FOR "PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE" and 26% SOCIAL SECURITY tax! Let's see....what is the US's current SS tax rate? 10-12%????

So...it appears that if we want to "change things" so we can keep up with those countries, we'll need to RAISE income taxes on the "average/middle classes" to 45% and LOWER corporate tax rates!

Genius!

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

Corporations shouldn't just be taxed more, they should be dismantled. Corporations are illegitimate institutions.

I live in Norway which is to a large extent based on social democratic values with much more economic equality than most other countries, and decent welfare services.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/welfare-and-workers-rights-in-norway/

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

And what is the personal income tax rate for the AVERAGE income earner in Norway?

Why are there corporations in Norway?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"And what is the personal income tax rate for the AVERAGE income earner in Norway?"

It's a much more progressive tax system than in the US fex, so the more you make the more you pay. An avarage worker pays somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% in income tax

"Why are there corporations in Norway?"

Because the majority want them to be there.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

So in order for the US to become as economically equal as Norway, the average worker in the US would have to pay 10% MORE in income taxes than they are currently, and corporate taxes would have to DROP by roughly the same amount.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

No, corporations, and the financial elite must be taxed much more in the U.S.

Corporations should eventually be dismantled; they're illegitimate tyrannies.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

But you're telling me that Norway is "based on social democratic values with much more economic equality" and yet you seem to be advocating for exactly OPPOSITE economic practices here in the US than the ones in Norway-lower taxes for the middle class/average worker and higher taxes on corporations!

Why would you advocate for a completely opposite formula than the one being used in Norway while expecting it to produce a better outcome, similar to Norway's?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

"But you're telling me that Norway is "based on social democratic values with much more economic equality" and yet you seem to be advocating for exactly OPPOSITE economic practices here in the US than the ones in Norway"

No, I don't.

The rich should pay much more taxes in the U.S.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Why just the rich? Why not ALL Americans? Like in Norway?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28439) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Because Bitsey - in case you have been sleeping - the wealthy need to play catch-up.

[-] -2 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

What about everyone who isn't "wealthy" or poor? Seems to me they need to catch up to Norway too. I mean, if you're going to be FAIR and EQUAL and all.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

The working class should get tax cuts, and the wealthy should get taxed much more. The wealthy should eventually be stripped from their power. The reason is that we should work to create a society where people are in control of their own lives, where the economic institutions are owned collectively.

[-] -1 points by BetsyRoss (-744) 1 year ago

Except that you keep saying how much better "life" is in Norway where the working class pays MORE taxes and corporations pay LESS.

A society where people are in control of their own lives is only a truly good society if everyone in that society takes control of their own life and makes good choices. Weak people ALWAYS give up their power in exchange for the promise of being "taken care of" by someone or something else.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

In the post you've commented under I argued that this "why should I have to pay for your healthcare" attitude is bullshit. I haven't seen you commenting on that. Do you agree with me?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

There's much more economic equality in Norway. The tax system is much more progressive in Norway than the US, which means that the wealthy contribute more. A much more progressive tax system should be implemented in the US. The wealthy must also eventually be stripped from their power. Capitalism is illegitimate, it must be dismantled.

We should strive to establish a participatory democracy from below in which people are in control of their own lives, controlling their workplaces and communities without private owners having undemocratic power in society. Only in Libertarian Socialism will humanity have true freedom.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

Why would you say that a paricipatory democracy is below anything?

The people who are stooping the lowest in the nation are the criminals trying to control the global economy. They are the lowest of the low.

Rising above their criminality to form a new system is what we are conceiving, is it not?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-should-i-have-to-pay-for-your-welfare/#comment-854747

well, I don't care what we call it. The important thing is that we work to create a society where people can have control of their own life, work and community.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 1 year ago

What I meant by that is a democracy that is built and controlled from below. A decentralized, anarchist society based on workers' self-management and local democracy.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 1 year ago

The anarchy word has been hijacked and demonised by corporate media.

I prefer resistance movement. I would also consider establishing a people's court, to replace the completely fascist SCOTUS. With so much ready cash in the hands of the criminals, to allow them freedom from prosecution would be to endanger the safety of any new system, or its followers.