Forum Post: Why is it okay to camp out for a discount flat screen but not for economic justice?
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 25, 2011, 2:35 a.m. EST by XXAnonymouSXX
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I find it interesting that the police aren't arresting people who are camping out to buy the lastest gadgets for christmas. It disgusts me that we can sleep on the sidewalk if we want to give more of our hard earned money to these obese corporations and feed the greed machine. But if we want social and economic justice for people of all class we are arrested and pepper sprayed. This is absolutely appalling. Cmon people is this really the best we can do as humans? Really? Wake up and educate yourself. www.thrivemovement.com
How many people have been trampled to death or robbed outside stores on black Friday? People will stomp others to death to get a ps3. I don't have the numbers but I would venture to say no one has been trampled to death at an occupy camp. These black Friday sales are far mor dangerous to human health than protesting economic equality.
Occupy hasn't been around very long. The crowded environment of an encampment has lead to a lot of crimes that are far worse then accidental injuries. I'd be careful about bringing up bad behavior comparisons.
Where is your basis for this comment? "Many crimes that are far worse than accidental injuries." Where are your facts sir because your statement doesn't include any. Wake up and educate yourself before making such bold lies please. www.thrivemovement.com
I'm sure you can Google occupy crime and get a list. There are literally hundreds of criminal complaints filed. Many arrests are bogus, I'm ignoring the thousands of civil disobedience arrests, that's the point of a protest. Some arrests are the result of a good movement attracting a bad element, and the Occupy locations have certainly done that. The point is bad things happen sometimes and it's no one's fault. Making a big deal out of an accidental injury while shopping then turning a blind eye to the occupy movement's problems with real crime is foolish and hypocritical.
I would never insinuate that crimes perpetrated by protesters are less criminal than those of others. But I don't know how much faith I would put in googles list of ows crimes. I don't know how you call it accidental when people are in a blind rage for the latest gadgets at discount prices and trample over others to get to it first. But you will have bad elements in any large gathering.
That was my point, not to excuse the reckless behavior of greedy shoppers, crime is crime. Just drawing attention to what might be a reckless disregard for life on the part of a shopper, just begs for someone to mention things far worse at OWS or the other Occupy sites. The encampments are an ideal hunting ground for certain criminals.
I took your advise and Googled the occupy crimes. I think you will find if you actually look into these stories of crime, as I have, you will see most and nearly all were committed by people not directly related to the occupy movement. I believe it is widely known that the police were sending known criminals as well as the mentally ill into the occupy camps to intentionally cause problems. They knew these people would would cause trouble and discredit the movement but I'm sure we've seen right through that. It's not uncommon for people to attack things that they are afraid of. I think that is what we are seeing right now. It's them saying "Shut the fuck up and get back in line!" The only thing more dangerous than the people waking up and realizing they have a voice is...when they use it. We have the power to change the planet. We outnumber the architects 1,000,000 to 1. We are waking up! www.thrivemovement.com. Check out this site. All the facts are their. Follow the money brother.
Sure, but the comparison is a fair one, the stores don't look for violent shoppers, OWS doesn't look for criminals, but both offer an environment for what we see happening.
I tried looking at the thrive movement, sorry anytime someone tries to link crop circles with aliens it jumps to the delusion-fantasy folder in my mind.
Please check out this link. It will give you some clarity. http://youtu.be/dUOTF7NQlwQ
Well that's because you are comfortable inside the circle, believing exactly what MSM deems true. But I understand being uncomfortable with an idea that isn't mainstream. But the facts are there. Most everyone on the planet will say they believe aliens exist so I don't know how you can call it delusion. Unless most of the population of the earth are delusional and you are one of the few with clarity.
Most people believe in a lot of things, but we don't get to vote god or aliens into existence. I'm open if there is proof, but crop circles in particular have been shown to be man made.
This is true. Some have been debunked as hoaxes. But look at the ones that are man made. They are crude. Some of the most elaborate ones appeared in a torrential rain with no tracks left in the mud. The people creating them would have to be geniuses due to the complex math and physics that go into them. It took ivy league students weeks to design these things and days to complete them. Please look at the research. It's hard to argue with the science. I concede that some are man made, no doubt. But every one is the result of a hoax? You will have a very difficult time convincing me of that. Thanks.
Is there criteria for become a member of Occupy? Isn't anyone who says they are Occupy, Occupy? Or are we giving out member cards now so we can screen people? Not to be totally ignorant, but all someone has to do to join Occupy is say they are in it. Only a few people can be part of the GA meetings. The rest are still occupy, and until OWS publicly and firmly distances itself from radical fringes, they belong to OWS.
Yes the criteria is: you want to be a part of it. Do you really think drug addicts and the mentally unstable know what is going on at these camps? They are not there because they want to be there. It's because they are threatened with arrest if they don't. And it's not a club it's a movement. So you are involved not a member. Do your research please ramous. www.thrivemovement.com
Is that a red herring planted in a desperate attempt to save your opening statement? Propose on topic counter-arguments, or you've failed to prove your point. How does setting up a campground on public property compare to setting up a campground on private property? How does one night of camping compare to two months of camping? Who ever said camping in Zuccotti park was illegal in the first place; the matter is currently pending a court trial and nothing has been decided yet.
Are you trying to ruin Occupy's reputation with a badly thought out line of argumentation? There are many arguments you can use to support Occupy. This is not one of them. Drop it.
Seriously dude? You are taking this way to serious. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole thing. Nevermind my comment about you being a smart guy. You've just proven me wrong. And to insinuate that I'm ruining the reputation of ows with this argument shows how ignorant you are. This is what the movement is about. Debating topics. Lighten up brother! www.thrivemovement.com
I agree, and that is why I am asking you to debate properly. Using logical fallacies to back your claims is not debating properly. It's just lame and useless. You haven't provided one counter-argument yet. Where's the debate?
You aren't getting the point. Wow. You are exhausting. All you have proven is you will try to argue against anything anyone says so this will be my last response to you. Put your face back in the sand and go to sleep.
What is your point? Perhaps you weren't clear. State it in a proper way with proper arguments to support it, and I will either agree with your arguments or propose counter-arguments. I'm not going to put my face in the sand because I care about debating and Occupy. You've stated you believe debate is the goal of this movement, prove you support this goal by debating properly, not using logical fallacies then running away. You published this post, the least you can do is defend it when it comes under scrutiny.
I believe I posed a question not and argument thank you. And by your logic then the occupy movement should be able to go to another park and camp for at least 1 nite without harassment from the mayor or police. Right? Your arguement was that the shoppers were allowed to do it because they didn't camp for 2 months. Ill bet you the city of New York would shut it down in minutes. I do appreciate your willingness to continue the debate. My whole point was ill bet if #OWS was out protesting to give banks and corporations more money or by protesting these said organizations were getting richer, they would've never have bothered the movement. Can we at least agree on that? www.thrivemovement.com
Your question was rhetorical, and it's obvious from reading your original post that you establish a clear position. Your are not posing the question without bias. Not at all. I quote:
You make a clear argument which is that it should be legal to camp in Zuccotti if it is legal to camp in front of a business.
No, this was only one of my arguments. I raised others as well. Here is the current list of arguments you have left unanswered, or improperly answered.
If people camped for two months at a private store, it very well might be the case that the government would down the encampment because of health concerns. We don't know because no one tried. This idea is only based on assumption and not worth being debated.
The public/private dichotomy is important. You have not shown why we should treat an encampment on public property the same way as one on private property. If the owner of the business agrees to allow people to camp on his property, it seems entirely different than the case of people camping and occupying a public park. What is your argument to support your idea that these cases are similar. You are using a "correlation not leading to causation" fallacy.
Your rhetorical question implies that camping on public property for protesting is illegal when the court case to determine this is still pending. This is simply a false statement on your part. At this time, we do not know if it is legal or not.
In one of the comments, you use an "appeal to motive" fallacy when you claim the mayor didn't really close the Zuccotti camp because of health concerns. We don't know if he did or not, but it doesn't matter. The only way to properly argue against his argument that the camp is unhealthy and dangerous for the population of NYC is to use counter-arguments that show it is not unhealthy and dangerous.
The nature of the encampments are entirely different. The ones for the stores do not block access to the store. The encampment in Zuccotti used the entire park and made it unusable to the public.
Your post doesn't support this point with one shred of evidence. It's absolutely hearsay, and it's a logical fallacy: appeal to motive.
Your position so far is extremely weak. It cries for you to support it with proper counter-arguments. What a great chance to practice the art of debate; to learn the difference between proper arguments and logical fallacies. Take up the challenge and you can only improve your debating skills.
Point 1. Agreed. Point 2. Public or private isn't my issue. Its spending money or protesting those who have it. Point 3. I've addressed this by changing the word legal. Point 4. That was not one of my comments. Some one else wrote that. Point 5. We are the public! We were using it.
Are we in court here. I thought we were having a conversation. You really need to lighten up sir.
Yeah, you are never "just" having a conversation when you reply to Glaucon/Thrasymaque.
He pretends he wants to "discuss" things with you but what he really wants is to engage in his CIA psyops mindfucking and have an excuse to deface this board with posts that expose his true agenda.
You may believe what you want. That's fine. However, those who read the above comment will see that the arguments are strong and that I am preparing for a serious debate. I don't use logical fallacies. If you want a serious discussions, fight the arguments not the proposer. Saying I am a spyops is nothing more than an appeal to motive. It it not a proper counter argument.
Earlier, you said the goal of Occupy was to debate, not to have mere conversations. I already have coffee shops around my neighborhood if I want light conversations. I come here to seriously explore ideas through debate.
Points taken. Thank you. Keep fighting the good fight brother. www.thrivemovement.com
OK. You're a great sport. Thanks for being up to debating. Let's all keep fighting the good fight.
Argument doesn't have to mean fight. We wont all agree on every issue. The important thing is we keep talking. Thank you.
Amen, amen, amen! It seems someone dies every year over t.v's, shoes, games, etc. in the name of Jesus. I say in the name of Jesus because that is what the majority is shopping for, Christmas. Yet, there is no police in riot gear for these shoppers who frequently get violent making it dangerous for those of us trying to get our weekly shopping done. People gather in a park as a non-violent demonstration in solidarity, and they act like it's WWIII. It's just another example of how twisted our priorities have become.
Christmas is not really about Jesus anymore for a lot of people. I'm an atheist but I still celebrate Christmas every year because giving and receiving presents and having a huge meal with your extended family is a great time.
I'm agnostic married to a Christian, I agree with you about it not being about Jesus anymore. I don't think presents are necessary to enjoy friends and family. Giving a gift or two to the children doesn't do harm but there are people maxing out credit cards, spending hundreds, and some thousands, of dollars, and even some who go into debt, for gift giving. This obsession with accumulating stuff is killing people, literally on the store floors. We did have a great time breaking bread together this Thanksgiving, but a holiday is not a requirement for enjoying the company of loved ones and sharing a hard earned meal together.
Once that guy got killed at the Walmart, any remaining interest I had in Black Friday sales was eliminated.
And even if no one dies....
LOL I can't believe some suck-up downvoted this. Truth hurts, right, you corporate suck-ups?
I voted it back up. I agree it's gross and would never paricipte, but there's lots of stuff people do that I don't get, like being fanatical about sports.
We pretend to be those that are camping out for discount flat screen while hindering the customers campers for economic justice.
Each year today marks the beginning of the seasonal Affluenza epidemic.
Indigenous Americans were killed for giving things away at their potlatch. The hijacked government does not want dessent.
Better look to finding out which laws congress has been violating that would have stopped this tragic economic condition. When you are trying uphold the constitution, cops feel different about you, well some do.
Apparently you haven't seen the new 3D HD sets from Samsung and Sony. Sweet!
Comparitive morality is not valid. According to anthropologies you can not judge the tribe Americanus Consumerist because you are not a member of the tribe. It is wrong to interfere and try to change this tribe. Your tribe hopefully I got it right Americanus protestum can only judge youselves what is right and I can not judge you. Thanks.
Because they havent been camping out there for months.
They don't block traffic. If they did, then didn't move when asked, they would be arrested. As for why they do it, they see that as a more important topic that seeking "economic justice".
It is not fair to ask that question. You need to ask that question after the people are camped ay Best Buy for two months. If they let them stay longer than two months I will agree it is unfair.
It was an anectdote. Jeez!
I serious wonder if people came to New York to set up tents for two months in a park to wait for the latest Apple IPhone or IPad would Bloomberg have a problem with it. Probably not!!! What a fucking hypocrite.
Because they aren't permanent residents and are there at the invitation of the retailers. Are you completely crazy not to see this? I wouldn't let you group of idiots run my country under any circumstances. The majority in this movement are wet behind the ears and have no understanding of what works and what is wishful thinking. If you are so daft not to understand why the reason why it is ok for people to camp at retailers then you better go back home to your X-box and stop embarrassing the movement.
I don't own an xbox sir and you are awful presumptuous for you to insinuate we are wet behind the ears. My point was only that if we were protesting with the agenda of giving corporations and wall street more money we would have been welcomed with open arms. And if you don't see this than YOU SIR ARE COMPLETELY CRAZY! www.thrivemovement.com
Then what is your problem? You already know why they can camp outside of the store to make a purchase vs people trying to block traffic and disrupt people trying to get to work so don't act so indignant. I do hate to break the news to all you 20 somethings but you are wet behind the ears with very little life experience and you would do well to listen to those that have been around 2 and 3 times longer then you have.
Again with the assumptions. I'm well beyond 30 years old sir. I have 2 boys and a wife. Yeah because all you 50-60 somethings have done such a great job improving the living conditions for America. You havent had an impact since the 70's when you fell asleep. Believe me the last thing I wanna do is listen to some one who has been around 2-3 times longer than me. They are usually stuck in their ways and the mainstream media is usually their source for news.
The corporations have made many slaves to discount prices and you are right it is disgusting that people will camp out to be the first in line when the store opens.
Let's face the truth. The stores own the land, they see the short term camping as to their good. A city with an occupy encampment allows it for a while, then for whatever reason want's it to end. I think if you set up camp in front of a mall and stayed for several weeks they might move to have you evicted too.
The sad reality is that while people seem to enjoy complaining about government and corruption, they are more interested in their little comforts. The occupy movement doesn't have a deep feeling of real support from the general population.
Are you guys not getting this? We are protesting economic injustice. I assure you we are not protesting against the products that are made. The business practices of corporations are money money money. They don't care about people and we are tired of it. They exploit their employees for profit. Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp? We enjoy our comforts but we want to be able to afford them at the same time. Jeez! www.thrivenovement.com
Your goals may be the best, unfortunately not enough people really care. It's sad but true. Surveys show people think politicians are corrupt, yet they think their guy is not so bad, makes no sense but it's true. Corporations are corrupt, but people aren't interested in that on a personal level, only in some vague general way that doesn't lead to any action.
This is where you're wrong my friend. That may have been true in the past but people are tired of this corrupt system. How do you think this movement started? And the polls you're sighting are probably from the MSM. I wouldn't put too much faith in those. People are waking up and the time has come. But if you like the way things are good luck to you brother. The begining is near. www.thrivenovement.com
Maybe, but there were probably more people camping out and waiting to go shopping last night then are at all the occupy encampments. There is a danger of spending too much time within a group of like minded individuals, you start to believe your thoughts are more generally accepted that they actually are.
It's probably apocryphal, but there is a quote attributed to the late art critic Pauline Kael, after the 1972 landslide election, "How can that be? No one I know voted for Nixon". The truth of the quote isn't the point, like any fable it offers a warning lesson to anyone that gets too insulated from the mainstream.
You think that maybe that has anything to do with the fact that the occupy camps have been broken up? I'm sorry but that comment sounds ignorant. What's the difference in occupiers being around like minded people and lets say Democrats or Republicans all hanging out together and discussing like minded ideas. These arguments you presented are full of holes my friend. Please rethink this. The more we cut ourselves off of the mainstream media tit, the more clarity we will find. Who do you think runs MSM anyway? Follow the money brother. The truth is out there. www.thrivemovement.com
It's natural to associate with like minded individuals, but it alters our perception too. Not a problem most of the time the support of the rest of the group keeps us motivated. When trying to get political change we're more likely going to be trying to win over people. We need to look beyond our own group when gauging support. What's going on among the Republicans and Democrats concerning this movement? How serious do they think it is? Not what we'd like them to think or fear about the Occupy movement but what their majority actually thinks.
That's where I look at the the Black Friday protests as a way of measuring OWS impact on the average person. Business as usual for most of the country means more work and dedication is needed by all those involved in the Occupy movement. The political parties and corporations have it easy, they look to see how effective the political ads were by who got elected.
You're right too about the media, they have a slant too. It's difficult to find any stories that do not mention what OWS is trying to accomplish, it's all crime and grime. They are reliving the 60's apparently.
Point taken thank you. I wouldn't gauge the way america feels by the black Friday protest because I believe those who shopped still havent become fully educated on what ows is trying to do. But I do believe at its core value people do agree with OWS. I'm not out protesting because I have to support my family but I love this movement and will support it any way I can. I believe in its message. Just because you don't see the numbers in the street doesn't mean the nubers aren't behind it.
Wouldn't you believe that if everyone just boycotted black friday... Things would already start to change?
I could go without all the big gadgets and nice crap I've never attended a black friday in my life. Just feeding into a corporate frenzy and selling myself out for a flat screen t.v. doesn't seem worth it to me.
Especially for all those who had to give half their thanksgiving up to go into work at such horrendous hours of the night... Just so normal every day people can turn into psychos fighting over products on shelves.
Herein lies the problem. The vast majority of Americans do not support OWS (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-favor-fading.html). 33% support represents over 100 million people, but losing 33 - 67 must be considered a landslide. Beyond that, supporting an idea and joining the cause are completely different. I may be sympathetic and wish the OWS well, but I may not be willing to change my habits or plans in a show of support.
When discussing this movement with friends and family, we don't have a consensus on the vision or purpose of OWS.
Are they protesting Corporate greed? If so...then what?
Are they protesting joblessness? If so...do they have any solutions?
Are they protesting government corruption? If so...how do they hope to change that?
Are they protesting against the rich 1%? If so...is this all bout tax hikes?
It appears that there is no clear message and no proposed solutions. When every protester has his own voice, the movement has no voice. Without a common voice, there is no message. With no message, there will be no change.
Let me take a stab at answering these for you. These answers are debatable.
Vision or purpose: In general to end economic injustice at the hands of elite bankers, greedy corporations and puppet governments.
Protesting corporate greed: Yes. I can't believe I even have to explain this to you. So I'm not going to. You can find thousands of examples all over this forum.
Protesting joblessness: Yes. Solution: Stop sending jobs to other countries. Seems pretty simple to me. Besides American made products are the highest quality. Everyone knows this.
Protesting government corruption: Yes. How to change it. How about no more lobbyists. These guys are the scummiest. We can never hope to change the government as long as they are bought and paid for. How do we compete with giant corporate budgets. We can't. This has to stop. End the Federal Reserve. This is the vampire squid. A system designed to create debt. It's horrifying what this system is doing.
Protesting the 1%: Yes. And again, really? If you are really paying attention than you know the answer to that question. "is this all bout tax hikes?" C'mon. www.thrivemovement.com. Check this site out. Lots of facts and you can follow the money to see what's really going on. Don't give up on this movement. It has the potential for real change.
1) Very general though. Economic injustice? How do you end it? Regulate lobbyists!!
2) I get it. It has been made clear. But, do you expect to legislate against greed?
3) Too simple. I would love to see jobs created in the US, but stop sending jobs overseas does not amount to a solution.
4) This seems to be the biggest factor that affects all Americans. Controlling lobbyists is a good start.
5) The 1% seems too broad. Many 1%ers are not "super rich" and they work hard and create jobs. Many of the 99% do not identify with this movement.
I agree with you and have never gone to black Friday sales. I know a family though that makes it a family social event and has for years. Can't explain it, but to them missing it would be like not having turkey on Thanksgiving. They are there for the store opening, whenever it is.
That's understandable too takes many different walks of life in this world. I know every individuals point of view is different. But, you are definitely right JP though I don't agree with black friday personally it would be wrong for me to take that away from the people who do enjoy it!
It seems to be successful too, in spite of the occasional violence, an article this morning says that sales were up over last year. Talk of hitting corporations in the pocket would seem to have been just that, talk.
Doesn't surprise me sadly most people can speak up a big storm, but when it comes down to action they fall short.
Most people would rather pretend and believe a lie than look around and see their world is falling to pieces.
Read in the news 47 % of Americans are unemployed or underemployed... now think for a second that's only what they've counted.
How many of us aren't accounted for?
I'm facing the same thing most are and that's why OWS is my hero my voice for the time being.
http://cbm1987.hubpages.com/hub/City-Lights-keep-us-warm
I wrote this for the holidays to remind people while some have cash others are starving or worse right now. If you like poems its one of my favorites so far
47% ? I know the real unemployment is over the 9% figure the government puts out, but I thought it was about 16%. As far as underemployment is concerned, I'd have to know how they determine that. Is it just asking some question like, does your job pay as much as you want? I'd love to know how they got that figure.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45407937/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/#.TtSnWWNR5kY
One of the articles though it states 45%. of "americans" struggle to make ends meet "underemployment / unemployment"
I can't find the original article that addressed the nationwide unemployment rate vs the state to state unemployment rate.
However 9% across the board just doesn't add up honestly it never did If i recall correctly the way they broke down underemployment is anyone making less than an annual income of 20,000 a year.
It also didn't state the figures separately the article had used the combined percentage of unemployed and underemployed Americans.
However that is a lot of individuals minus who's not being accounted for at the current moment
The 45% in your article is more those living on some form of government assistance, just over half the number is children. They are at the edge of poverty.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/at-wal-mart-pepper-spray-attack-triggered-chaos-screaming.html
Because towels are $2.99 at Walmart.
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One night versus two months. That's the difference.
Just to clarify...
The people camping out at the stores are on the private property of the stores. The stores both condone and encourage people to do so... it's part of the "Black Friday" marketing campaign.
We OWS'ers, in contrast, are occupying public land, depriving other citizens the use of said land, and consistently work to interfere with the rights of others to pass (UC Davis), to go to and from work (Wall Street). Shop (Boycott Wall-mart), do their jobs (Oakland), etc.
I support this movement, but let's not be drinking our own bathwater. It's important we have our facts straight or the talking heads are going to shred us.
Because most of the time the stores are on private property.They are they for one reason and when they buy what they want they leave.
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I love my new 63 " screen!
Great now you will be able to see the bullshit coming right out of Fox news! www.thrivemovement.com
In HD!!!
Ignorance in America never ceases to amaze me. wake up cuz your tv won't do you much good when you're headed to a FEMA camp in shackles. www.thrivemovement.com
here's the thing, people camping out means business, you guys camping is just retarded and just a complete hindrance to peoples lives and public disruption.
Oh is being angry that the system we live under is destroying life on a global scale too inconvenient for you justcause? Sorry didn't mean to interrupt American Idol. Seriously? You can't be that naive. Check out this website. www.thrivemovement.com. There are pages of facts so you can follow the money. Educate yourself brother. We need solidarity. These problems threaten life as we know it.
because the ground people are sleeping on is private property. property owners can do whatever they want, as you can on your private property
and wtf is economic justice?
Because folks camping for a TV have jobs and are just having fun. They are in it for the deal. Plus the superbowl is comming! Give me a break!
The stores want you to buy stuff so they allow it. Plus it is their private property. They can allow what ever they want. And Wal Mart had a great deal on a 40 in 1080p flat screen. But watch out for some lady with pepper spray!
good question i'd love to hear a explanation
The explanation is simple. Occupy camped out for two months, and there are no such flat TV discount campgrounds that go on for two months. It's a failed comparison.
maybe or is diffrent because they(cooperations) are actually making money off it
No. The problem is the XXAnonymouSXX 'a comparison is flawed. Create any type of campground in the middle of the city and run it for two months, and I guarantee the police will come in to dismantle it. XXAnonymouSXX is using logical fallacies to back up his claims. Be smart. A lot of people are doing that here; for or against Occupy. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't help anyone's position. The proposer of the argument loses all credibility.
Another logical fallacy would be to ask - "Why are two month long occupations of public parks only accepted when they are for economic justice, and not for discounted flat screen TVs?" This fails because no one ever tried to setup a campground for discounted flat screen TVs.
i get theres a diffrence between camping for a day or 2 and camping for two months but let me ask you this hypatheticly do you think if occupiers paid the cooperations they were occupying the equivalent of whatever they make on black friday for every day they camp out would those cooperations still have a problem with it?
Your point doesn't apply to this circumstance and just dabbles in useless assumptions. Was it the corporations that kicked out Occupy protesters after two months, or the police working for the government?
If you want to prove XXAnonymouSXX's assumption so that he can use an argument instead of hearsay to make his claim, then you have to try it. Ask your local GA to test his idea by setting up a camp for discount electronics to see if it can survive until the two month mark set by Occupy. Unless you do this, this entire discussion is a waste of time since it's just conspiracy theory nonsense.
Hey brother. Who do you think owns the government and the police force? Nevermind you probably believe they still work for us. Unbelievable! Wake up and educate yourself. You're disillusioned. www.thrivemovement.com
Very effective debating tactic.
Red herrings? And where are these drastic flaws you've pointed out? You seem like a smart guy so don't be so ignorant. I know you can understand the point to my post. I think you may be overanalyzing this. www.thrivemovement.com
Your post makes no point because the argument is flawed. Iv'e stated exactly why in various comments on this page. Read them and provide counter-arguments. If you can't then your position is left undefended. Try to debate like an adult. Name calling does not solidify your position.
ok if you really want to argue that occupying for 2 months is illegal regardless of wether cooperations have a problem with it i would like to remind you investors have occupied wall street for decades and though i will concede investors havent stayed overnight protesters who tried to actually occupy wall street during the day havent been allowed to get remotely close no matter what time of day it is for even a minute...
last i checked wall street isnt private property so as long as there no riots or sleepovers pissing on walls ect ect the protesters have just as much right to be there as anyone else? if you want to argue space is limited and not everyone will fit i counter that arguement by saying than let people in on a 1st come 1st server basis and leave everyone else out just because theres limited space doesnt mean investors have more of a right to it than anyone else? please correct me with some law stating otherwise if im wrong
Logical fallacy: red herring.
You're changing the topic of discussion and, again, you're comparing apples with oranges. I'm only arguing against XXAnonymouSXX's claim made in this original post. I'm not arguing for or against Wall Street bankers. Stay on topic and be honest when debating. Logical fallacies are vile and won't help this debate.
i yield to concede im comparing apples to oranges as long as you concede though diffrent they are both still a fruit and even apples and oranges have some things similar therefore also conceding that camping out against wall street and camping out for a flat screet though different still have similaries thus finally concluding the nypd denying protesters access to wall street violates the participating protesters 1st amendment right to peacefully assemble
The matter is currently pending a court case. Nothing has been decided yet. Who are you to decide instead of a judge in Superior Court if setting up two month long campgrounds in public spaces is supported by your 1st amendment right? Why not wait for the court to decide.
In any case, the comparison to Best Buy makes no sense. These are two entirely different matters. The legality of camping in Zuccotti park for protesting does not depend on the legality of camping on a store's private property. These two issues are completely unrelated.
Not true. Occupy Fort Wayne has been allowed to camp in a downtown park since the begining and the mayor and police have not bothered them. So this argument you pose has already been disproven. www.thrivemovement.com
Then why are you claiming the opposite in your opening statement? You just destroyed your whole position in this last comment of yours. You should delete this whole post. It is useless now.
It's not a comparison of time length. It's an argument against double standards. If you pitch a tent to buy a fucking flat screen, you're accepted with open arms by the establishment. If you pitch a tent and wave some signs in the air, you get frowned on by the establishment.
You bring up a good point, but there is also the point of time, and the point of public vs private property.
And the point of blockading. If OTHER people can still get through, then you are not infringing on their rights.
Indeed. XXAnonymouSXX's statement is flawed from top to bottom, and he can only resort to red herrings and name calling in a desperate attempt to reduce the strength of the counter-arguments against his claim.
That's not true. I'm not here to reduce the strength of anyones arguement. And wtf is a red herring? Why do you keep using it like its your tagline? I just thought it was an interesting subject and wanted to see how others saw it. You obviously support corporate greed and are doing very well for yourself by the looks of your counter points. Bury your face in the sand and ignore the man behind the curtain. www.thrivemovement.com
You can use Google to find out what a red herring is.
You said this in another comment - "This is what the movement is about. Debating topics.". I totally agree, but you have to learn the art of debating if you want to debate. A red herring is a flawed debating tactic. You can't debate if you don't know what it is. You should also learn about other logical fallacies. Have you ever taken part in a debate club? I suggest you try. It will help you immensely and provide you with the right tools to go about doing what this movement is all about: debating topics.
There is that other point, but I decided to evict it.
I have been posting that i still have two 52" HD TV's that I got yesterday. $199 each is a steal!
Whatever, society was fine with yall camping out in that park for the first week but after several months you've over stayed your welcome. Plus it's not justice to take money that someone else legally earned.
So you are against 1% taking money from the 99% who do all the work while they reap the profits?
No. I am for protecting the American dream. The individuals who make up the 99% who "do all the work" agreed to their salary before putting a single sweat or providing a single though toward the work that provides the profits the 1% reap. The 99% are not slaves. We have the freedom to pursue any career option we want. It requires us to select a path of preparation to gain the education, skills, and experience needed to qualify for those careers.
You know why it's called a dream, right?
Its a dream because it's for each individual to conjure up in their mind what they see themselves doing as a profession and lifestyle they desire, and their own personal repsonsibility to push forward and realize it. It's only a dream to those who do not pursue and fulfill the various objectives their end goal requires.
It's called a dream because it isn't real. Or like George Carlin said it "You have to be asleep to believe it".
I think you are the dreamer. Quoting George Carlin?! The best work he ever did was in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, and as crappy as that movie was it still brought in $40,485,50.00. Proof that you can dream up the dumbest movie with crap actors on a low budget and rake in millions.
Living by Goerge Carlin's words probably would limit my vision of success too.
It's ok. I understand you want to lash back after i called your dream for what it is. Take care mate. I hope you wake up ;)
Do you have a link to information about campgrounds for flat TV discounts? Did they camp for two months like the Occupy protesters? Last time I checked, riot police didn't kick out Occupy on day one. The government let them setup camps that lasted quite a long time.
I don't know if they've been there for 2 months but:
Oh Look! They are not blocking the road! They must not be occupiers if other people can get past them.
Well, maybe these are, then.
Looks like "people can't get past them" to me.
Occupiers haven't trampled anyone to death yet, have they?
FALSE EQUIVALENCY! LOGICAL FALLACY! YOU LIE!
I don't understand your point. Occupy set up a campground for two months before being busted. Your just making a logical fallacy. How can that help your case? I can show a photo as well, and if you want I can add a blurb that reads something like "It's OK two camp out two months for economic justice, but it's only possible to camp out a few days for discount prices!" That would also be a logical fallacy since no one ever tried setting up a two month long campground for discounted electronics.
Furthermore, that's Best Buy private property, while the Occupy campgrounds are on public property.
The comparison makes no sense and doesn't help the Occupy discussion in any way. Why are we wasting time discussing such nonsense?
If you want to support your argument properly, you're going to need practical evidence. Why not ask a GA to test this idea by setting up a campground for discounted electronics and see if it can outlast Occupy's two month mark. It should be on public property for a proper comparison. If it works, then you can say something like "Why can campgrounds for discounted electronics last longer than two months on public property, but Occupy campgrounds can't." Don't say Occupy campgrounds were never allowed. They were. For two long months.
Look an Occupy campground! It's amazing... I did happen! An look again! It's a real campground, not just a few measly tents like the Best Buy picture above.
Thing is they should have been allowed to camp all day every day for their cause and their protest.
Come on even you have to agree that the Mayor using that scapegoat of "concern for health and safety" to dismantle occupy at the park wasn't just mere coincidence.
He trampled on their rights to get them out of that park all in the name of "health" and "safety" used bad press.
Best thing that happened occupy gained a whole bunch of publicity for it!!!
The matter is pending a court case because it is not clear if they should or should not be allowed to camp in a public space.
Saying the mayor wasn't honest when making his health concern argument is not a proper counter-argument. It is a logical fallacy: appeal to motive. If you want to counter the mayor's claim, you have to provide counter-arguments that show why it is not true that a two month camp ground is unhealthy and dangerous for the population. You haven't done this.
In addition, whether or not it is legal to camp in a public space to make a protest will not and does not depend on whether it is legal to camp on a store's private property if the store owner agrees. This idea is another logical fallacy: correlation without causation.
Your whole counter stands on top of logical fallacies, and not proper counter-arguments. You can't hold a proper debate this way.
Who said the camps were never allowed? Are you telling lies now or what? Lets get the facts straight. www.thrivemovement.com
The title of your post implies this. Read it again.
Where does it imply the camps were never allowed. I posted this thread and I don't see that anywhere. You're making stuff up.
Permit me to highlight the words in the title of your post:
The BUT NOT counters the word LEGAL and could be replaced by ILLEGAL. To rephrase: "Why is it LEGAL to camp out for a discount flat screen BUT ILLEGAL for economic justice?
The matter is currently pending a court trial and nothing has been deciding yet. Wait for the result before deciding for yourself it is legal or not. And, this result does not depend on whether it is legal to camp on a store's private property if that store allows it. They are two absolutely unrelated issues. The foundation of your claim is based on a logical fallacy: correlation without causation.
I'm sorry for the use of the word legal. What I meant was OKAY. I will edit the title for you.
Better. But you should stipulate for who this is OK. It should be "Why is it OKAY in the eyes of the government and police...". The problem is it's obviously OKAY in the eyes of the protesters to camp in Zuccotti.
Glaucoma, you take yourself and these posts wayyy too seriously.
Every American knows Best Buy allows tents because it's all part of the hype of the lethal "Black Friday" bacchanalia.
Lighten up.
And we all know - if it would bring record sales, Best Buy and Walmart would let you camp for THREE months plus shit, fuck, smoke weed and cook meth in their fucking parking lots. As long as you bring the cabbage.
Thanks for the laugh powerto. Its funny because its true.
It's their private property! Find an OWS supporter that owns a large piece of land and camp there. The comparison makes no sense. Occupy has some great things going for it, but if its supporters keep making flawed judgments and flawed arguments such as this, then the movement will go downhill. It's important to stay sharp if we want Occupy to succeed. There are millions of strong arguments that you can use to support Occupy. Use those, instead of making weak ones like this.
You said "Do you have a link to information about campgrounds for flat TV discounts?"
So, I showed you one.
Case closed.
And again, lighten up.
I asked for a link with information, not propaganda.
Oh, please. Only the caption is possibly "propaganda". The photo itself is real. People, camping - outside a Best Buy.
I already saw photos like this. It's nothing new. Read the sentence after the one where I ask for information if you want to understand what I was looking for.
If these people thought they could get a flat screen for 20 bucks, they would be camping for 2 months.
Until that is tested and we see what happens, the OP's position is only based on an assumption, and not an argument. It's a waste of time and nothing more than a cheap conspiracy theory.
I'm willing to seriously debate the issue if you want. Read the following post and propose your counter-arguments: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-is-it-legal-to-camp-out-for-a-discount-flat-sc/#comment-426405
The OP chose not to defend his position. He balked after he was unable to counter some of the points.
Here are some people camped out for days hoping for Saturday Night Live standby tickets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVMxhODDlk
Your point? Occupy camped for 60 days+ before they got bothered.
If you want to enter a debate with arguments, that's fine with me. Like I said you can provide counter-arguments for the arguments in this comment, then I'll provide my counter-arguments, etc... If you have arguments you want to add, go ahead. http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-is-it-legal-to-camp-out-for-a-discount-flat-sc/#comment-426405
Darling. Occupy in NYC managed to camp out for 60 days. They were bothered when they first arrived, then the police for whatever reason backed off. Maybe it was because they tried to harass the protestors with fake laws and the protestors had legal advisors at the ready. I don't know. Then there was a planned eviction on Oct 14th but 3000 people showed up to resist and Bloomberg backed down.
http://occupywallst.org/article/ows-victory-people-have-prevailed-gear-global-day-/
Be that as it may. NYC managed to last 60 days. Some cities the protestors were chased off the very first night.
Chicago has had a very hard time staying in one place for more than 24 hours.
So you keep hammering that sixty days over and over, that only applies to NYC, not to every single Occupy encampment.
Black Friday camping is nationwide, so is Occupy, we shouldn't only be focusing on NYC to form the arguments you love so much.
Very well thought out powertothepeople. Great statement.
The 60 days issue is only one of the problems with XXAnonymouSXX's argument. Even if I concede this one to you, which I will, the other counter-arguments sill need answering: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-is-it-legal-to-camp-out-for-a-discount-flat-sc/#comment-426405
It would be nice if you took a jab at them.
because it's private property and the stores encourge it
We should start camping out in front of stores. If they "encourage it" so much than they wont mind will they. Hope you have a better argument than that.
lol..put their corporate logos on the tents, they'll let you do just about anything
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they don't own the sidewalks
i wasn't arguing i was answering the question i can't help it if you don't like the answer
Puh leeze. OWS has been camping for weeks for free and robbing tax payers of their city services with cops getting OT to babysit you and other city services cleaning up your bodily waste. These powewrshoppers aren''t bleeding city budgets and resources. They aren't blocking roads or scaring the general public.
I laugh every time I see this question raised. You cannot REALLY be serious.
I am serious. How uneducated can one person be. These claims that ows is deficating in the streets is bullshit. No one asked the police to come and "protect"the occupiers. It is a "nonviolent movement" jackass. When are you retards gonna get that. We don't need the police. The police ARE being exploited. The more we can bleed city resources the better. If you aren't interested in the survival of humanity then put your fucking head in the sand and go back to sleep. Wow some of you people are really not based in reality.
Very well stated. Am sure your mother would be proud.
I dont know about you, but i don't live my life to make my mom proud
I can see you are a very successful soul. Congrats. not many people can achieve their life's goals.
well we all can tell your lifes goal "puppet" and you are obviously very successful at it
She is proud. Proud that I refuse to accept a system that destroys life. Proud that I stand up for what I believe and proud that I'm not afraid to use the voice I was given. Your mother would be ashamed if she knew you were fighting against this movement. We have the power to create real change. Lets stop fighting and do it. www.thrivemovement.com
and actually alot of the stores have "cops getting OT to babysit" the shoppers and make sure no one steals anything or gets outta hand
I think we are very serious. Of course the comparison is both amusing and sad... at least for those who see it as a problem that 1) a day of Thanksgiving is followed by a day of frenzied (fatal, in at least one case) shopping inaugurated to mark the birth of someone purported to be god's son who came to inform us all that we should worry a lot less about material wealth and a lot more about "the least of his brothers"... and 2) that this is the United States... not the defender of the Bill of Rights and Constitutional Democracy, which we apparently have very little tolerance for in the face of the more pressing problems of "inconvenience" and "blocked traffic"-- but the Champion of Consumerism and Amazing Deals on TV's!
It is both ridiculous and seriously sad... in my humble opinion.
Atheists don't have to worry about taking the Christ our of Christmas, do they?
This is still no comparison to the free camping experience. Hell, if I were 30 yrs younger I'd have gone to NYC, Cheapest vacation I coulda ever had.
well, I'm an atheist, but I was raised Catholic and some things influenced me and in many ways I think Jesus was one of the first protestors against Empire and defenders of the "havenots".
So the whole season bothers me. I'm a complete grinch until January 2nd!
So are you just satisfied with our society and mocking this whole thing or what? You are welcome to because OWS can stand some mocking and probably could use it. But I do really wonder if there's anything underneath your sneers.
oh, much as it pains me to say it, the movement has raised some very valid points.
I just don't condone the tactics. OWS dodged a bullet with the N17 stuff. Supposing someone had a heart attack or some other serious medical emergency in the neighborhoods they gridlocked and died becuz an ambulance or their loved ones that threw them in a car couldn't get them to the hospital in time? All this 'direct action' is not winning points with mainstream america. Who are you (or they) to take the fun out of the gift giving season? That's all. I agree ows has raised issues to be discussed....DISCUSSED, not mobs looking for sound bites. Your msg is being lost in your own noise.
Indeed a lot of the msg is getting lost as these threads descend into vitriol, often coming from OWS side.
I must say that I am surprised by the lack of "tolerance" "mainstream" America has for a protest that-- as you say-- is making some good points. Like I said, I'm an idealist by nature, so I'm naturally disposed in favor.
I don't say "lack of tolerance" pejoratively. People such as yourself really do get turned off by the messiness of it, the noisiness of it, the disobedience of it. Forgive me (or indulge me) but it seems a bit over-reactive. The TV news hypes stuff up and dramatizes stuff. Have you been to a protest/ camp? It might be exciting when the riot police show up, but it's mostly boring-- and occasionally inspiring. In any case, honestly... what is the big deal? Let "them" camp.... let them chant, let them bang on the drums all day (IIIIIIII don't wanna work, I just wanna bang on the drums all day...!). What happened to the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave. I think we are a lot more capable than we imagine ourselves to be. There's a weird FEAR that seems to lurk below the surface of our society. I notice it especially after traveling around the world. Americans are kind of paranoid and hysterical.
Your ambulance emergency scenario is valid. I can't really argue it, except to say that emergencies happen all the time and-- protest or no protest-- so do traffic jams. No one says shut down the freeway because too many cars are blocking the road and an ambulance can't get through. Police could easily work WITH protestors to maintain or even create emergency corridors as needed. But they are not even TRYING to do that. It's just this blanket FEAR and then a giant crackdown.
what say ye?
So, humans cannot live on public land and if they live on private land they pay a tax. Humans cannot fly, our feet have to be on the ground. So my very existence is taxed, and all the land is owned by those who collect the taxes. And you say "robbing taxpayers" why are you not railing against congress and wall street? They took more from you then your narrow little mind can even comprehend. The bailouts were chump change they own every dollar you ever touched, they own you, and me. They owned our grandparents if we don't do something our children will be slaves too.
The bailouts were just the last straw. You really think this whole movement is about bailouts? You are grossly mistaken. www.thrivemovement.com
No this is about using money as a tool, instead of the elite using it to turn us into tools. No one is free while debt slavery exists, not even the masters. For if they ever become enlightened enough to end the serfdom they will find themselves burned or hung from a tree. The machine needs to stop and the people in control know it too.
Hon, the Haves have owned the Havenots since well before Christ walked the earth. It's called LIFE and the luck of the draw where and to whom you were born.
Wow your optimism in human evolvement is staggering. Just because you are born under an oppressive system does not mean the system should not and can not be changed. Wake up and get educated. www.thrivemovement.com
Yes, those in Power tend to abuse and exploit where they can and where they are allowed... but history has also been a (slow & painful) progression towards increased liberty & justice... at least I thought that was the point of the Enlightenment and also our American Revolution & Constitution.
You are welcome to sit it out if you are one of the lucky ones. But as a "lucky one"... consider... uh... making a "donation"...?
It's also called Life when human beings rise above their primitive and barbaric instincts and march bravely towards the "Light". I would be sorry to think that you are missing this rather inspiring and wonderful side of LIFE.
are you really such a cynic? or nihilist? just wondering because your comment does disturb my sense of... faith in humanity. but I do thank you for the challenge of it.
Have always thought myself pragmatic. Brutally pragmatic. Just cuz it's ugly don't make it false.
I can appreciate that. I am an idealist by nature, and that hasn't always worked out so well for me. So, just exactly what is the "ugliness" as you see it?
Can't argue with that, but it does not have to stay that way.
Agreed. There's still unclaimed land in the heart of africa, amazonian basin and antartica. GO FOR IT
Is your life so great that you are completely happy with the way our system is working for the extremely wealthy and destroyed the middle class? I don't understand how anyone can defend this evil greed regime that doent care about human life. These companies would sell you into slavery if it improved their profit margins. Please educate yourself on the truth brother or sister. www.thrivemovement.com
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idk i drove by a best buy earlier the size of the crowd and line sure scared the heck outta me
yes... and let's take note OWS. "the 99%" is more interesting in 20% off.
we have our work cut out for us.