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Forum Post: Why, in the end, the SECURITY STATE can't beat the people

Posted 2 years ago on June 6, 2013, 8:50 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Recent revelations regarding the NSA ( http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/05/nsa-asked-verizon-for-records-of-all-calls-in-the-u-s/ ) are scary indeed. But the weapons of unity and speaking the truth out loud are stronger than anything the NSA and our national security state can wield. If we the people can utilize technology to unite, there's no stopping us no matter how much information they have. There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

The rise of Occupy in all its forms (in person occupations and protests and electronic consciousness raising & networking) has helped we the people realize that we have more in common than we have separating us. That is a powerful revelation and as it strengthens and spreads, we will be able to begin making decisions from a position of unified strength rather than making demands from a position of divided weakness. The people are rising... The jig is up.

That doesn't mean there isn't a mountain of hard work and details ahead of us. But it does mean that we can win this. That knowledge itself is powerful.

"A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history".

~ Gandhi

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Gandhi

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. ~ Margaret Mead



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[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

I love that it is out. They are spying on ALL of us. Every single one of us!!!!! How dare they! They simply cannot get away with this. Wake up people!

[-] 6 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Time for the people to rise

[-] -2 points by barbarosa (-5) 2 years ago

No, the people don't even agree about the problematic and how to solve it. People can only rise when they yearn for the same goal. People on this Occupy site don't even agree as to the best solution, never mind people outside of Occupy. We can only rise once we know what we want and how to get it, and when we agree on this. It's to early now. We're not even close to having any type of unity.

We rose two years ago, then, when we were up, we realized we didn't know what else to do. Some wanted to push for a revolution, some wanted to form a political party, others want to make demands to remove money from politics, etc... We all went in different directions. Much better to agree before rising. That's when you have real power. The cops didn't kill Occupy, we killed it ourselves with our own inner disagreements.

Hey guys, let's all go out Saturday! Yeah! We meet, then Jim wants to go there, Sarah wants the other pub, Joe wants theater, etc... We meet, then all break up into our separate directions. That's Occupy.

[-] 4 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

And they are using us (our police and military) to protect themselves from us.

That is where our focus needs to be directed, IMHO.

[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

That's exactly what they would prefer to see us do. Our weakness against their strength. The police and military are just their arms.

Strike at the heart instead. Our strength against their weakness. Stop feeding them with our taxes, and stop buying the products of corporations that support the state. Their lifeblood is money. Cut that and the corporate/government beast dies.

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

Are you referring to those people who "created" 16 trillion dollars to hand out to their buddies? They own the "lifeblood". This is why they are militarising the police force, and funding private armies like blackwater/xe/al qa-ida to do their shit for them.


[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

If you were the government, what would you do? They are well aware of the growing discontent. The easiest way for them to silence opposition groups is by encouraging them to use violent tactics. If a small group of protesters uses violence and is soundly defeated, the majority of people will cheer the police and army just as they did after the Boston bombing.

Instead of freedom fighters they will be considered terrorists. Successful revolutionaries like MLK and Gandhi always made the enemy the "object of injustice" and won. If we become the "object of injustice" by initiating violence we will lose.

[-] 4 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

if i was the government i would do what i was supposed to do uphold the supreme law of the land above all else. this is not upholding the law above all else. this is the last vestiges of liberty and freedom being sucked out to sea.

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

Are you putting words in my mouth?

Here's what I said.

(quote) And they are using us (our police and military) to protect themselves from us.

That is where our focus needs to be directed, IMHO. (unquote)

Our "focus" needs to be on convincing the people (and that includes the police and the military) that the true enemy is the oligarchy and their political minions.

All clear on that one, now? Are we on the same page again?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

OK, I misinterpreted your statement. Thought you meant we should attack the police and soldiers. There are some here who definitely favor a violent confrontation.

How would you get the police or army to hear our message?

[-] 3 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

I think they're starting to "get it" now. There's always an element within any militarised group that enjoys the power trip, and the violence. The rest of the forces have a conscience.

Providing an alternative to the garbage pushed by corporate media is where our real strength and power are to be found. We just have to keep plugging away at spreading the real information, so those who want to know, can be alerted to what the real issues are.

[-] 0 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

in other words stop living. your logic is silly. our strength is our numbers that is it. no matter how many of us they kill or jail there are always more. kind of like the terrorists we kill, huh aint that a bitch.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Our strength isn't in our numbers, it's the type of weapon we choose. Non cooperation like that practiced by Gandhi and MLK is the more potent weapon. Did they have every single black or Indian protesting in the street. The majority usually sit out revolutionary change while those who are involved in change are the ones that steer it.

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

mlk is a good one, they killed him before the real change was able to take place.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

Great links, shooz. It has been going on for a long time, yes, but people didn't realize that they are keeping track of every single phone call you've made and every single email you've sent. People thought, ah, they're just focused on bad people, but no, they've got all of our records.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's not that I'm not appalled, it's that I've been appalled for a while now and don't find this latest attempt to place blame, to be revelatory,

It's more like the MSM is going bonkers, now that they know it applies to them too.

At least they don't have to worry so much about the non-governmental invasions that are also ubiquitous, and like you said, at least the governmental invasion is out in the open.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

"The governmental invasion is out in the open." Exactly. So, everything we've been saying has been right and we don't look like nutters anymore. All good. :)

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You seem to be taking a more reasonable tack here, so I have one more very informative link for you.

It gives the full dept of how this came about.


[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

"PRISM has access to both stored and live data. This isn't like looking at the front of envelopes; this is like ripping open the letters, scanning the contents, and storing the information."

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

All of it, long ago approved by SCOTUS.

Keep in mind that it's a double edged sword.

It could also be used to expose the many layers of corporate corruption and how it's poisoned our Democracy.

It's just raw information and as always, it all depends on what is done with it.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

Morality is above the law, always. It is immoral, unconstitutional and totalitarian for our government to be storing our data. They have no right to open our snail mail without just cause and have no more right to be snooping at who we phone or email and the content of those calls and emails. This is totalitarian behavior and nothing less. It is also a grand way to smash dissent which is the real goal here.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Smash dissent??

That's exactly what Snyder did in Michigan.

Smash dissent. 100% legal dissent.

It didn't get a 1/15th the press.

Most folks have no idea what happened there.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

I do not view this as a partisan thing at all. It's just a bad thing by whoever does it. You are right about Snyder. In the end, though, we, and politicians, are all more than party labels. We are what we stand for or don't stand for.

For me this has nothing to do with Rep vs. Dem. It has to do with the 99% vs. the corporate, war mongering, fear mongering greedy tyrannical machine.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

See what I mean?

I hope the ACLU wins it's case. I'd love to see it stop, but even if it does?

Folks like Snyder will continue to be successful, because nobody pays any attention to what folks like Snyder have also been doing for decades, ignoring and /or destroying dissent.

and that's the shame of it.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago


the private companies have that information

should we ask them to destroy it on scout honor?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

We should expect them to not be required to share that information with the government.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

they can abuse it without the government's help

the government should be synopsis to mean the collective people

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

Of course, and they do, but that's our choice to give them our information. The government getting our information is not our choice.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the government should serve the people

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I got a cell phone to try and get a job

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

And, whatever carrier you use will know your calls, and you know and expect them to because how else could they make your phone work, right? The government, on the other hand, has not been hired by you to provide phone service and, therefore, has no right to that information.

[-] -2 points by justiceforzim (-17) 2 years ago

Exactly!!!! They are storing the CONTENTS forever and some day will be able to "process". Any kid born this century can count on any communication they have had in their LIVES is stored on an NSA computer.

Today, "terrorists". Tomorrow? Oh, drug dealers, perverts. whatever (cigarette smokers or sugar junkies).....can anyone guarantee that someday, someone will NOT put your name in DARK STAR and pull out things better left private?

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Our job isn't done, until they also know how long and how invasive the corporate invasions of privacy are too.

Those scare me every bit as much, and they're ubiquitous.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21415) 2 years ago

The government and corporate invasions are linked. And, a new political term is emerging for the new political system we find ourselves in, a "corporatocracy."

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I prefer plutocracy, but corporatocracy works as well.

Fortunately, it's not yet complete.

I find the corporate invasion of privacy more insidious, as it's totally unknown what they do with it.

As I've said before though, it's the 21st century, get used to a lack of privacy.When the kid down the street, with the proper equipment. can listen in to your cell phone, there is no real privacy.

Anybody remember party lines on your phone?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3652) 2 years ago

People, these deeds are done in our names so if you dislike the stench, we must clean up the mess.

Obama named keeping Americans safe as his top priority and protecting constitutional rights second so we may well end up being safe and sound in the all-padded time-out room of our "school" reserved for the American "Bantus" who have mental/emotional "problems".

[-] 1 points by gameon (-51) 2 years ago

there can never be 100% security, so obamas " argument "is a phoney one.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3652) 2 years ago

Absolutely, the U.S. is one of the most connected places on Earth. Striving for 100% security is for feeble-minded scared people.

Compared to a terrorist attack risk, I take far more risk being on a sidewalk with some idiot texting while driving or going behind a car backing out with the driver making a cell phone call. We tolerated these for decade(s) but not headphones on a driver's head to listen to music. The difference was that one case was backed by the corporations but the other was supposedly done by teenagers. The U.S. is so freaky flaky!

[-] 1 points by dukehagen (21) from Anrode, TH 1 year ago

Hey Guys,

I have a strategy proposal here, that might give the people a tool to at least battle the security state - specifically the NSA. I'm really interested on your opinions!

[-] 1 points by quantumystic (1710) from Memphis, TN 2 years ago

ghandi didn't have to face drone strikes. if he did he would have been one dead terrorist. remember that. you think that the government is just going to turn over the keys of power cause we compel them to? they will slaughter us by the millions first. just so you know. they will not capitulate unless it is under the blade of a sword. this is historical fact. just look at eastern europe under soviet control for recent examples.

[-] 0 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Gandhi and MLK defeated tyranny by non cooperation. That is historical fact. Cooperation with tyranny is the only thing that sustains it.

[-] 0 points by barbarosa (-5) 2 years ago

You can't compare the situation of Gandhi and MLK with the situation of America at this time. Occupy is fighting a very different monster. Numbers do matter in this case. They matter a lot.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I completely disagree. Gandhi and King and their supporters faced what seemed like an unstoppable power and they stopped it with nonviolent direct action, non-violent civil disobedience and non-cooperation. If we didn't support the debt machine... if we started voting with our wallets... We would begin the long process of dismantling this unstoppable power we face. There is only one of them for every 99 of us. Once we realize that we have more in common than we have separating us, we will be in a position to make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness. Gandhi and King and their supporters raised consciousness and unified people against an unjust system. And their secret weapon was that they did everything they could (by sticking to active and relentless nonviolent resistance) to avoid giving their opponent ammunition to paint them as thugs. This gave them a power, a moral authority that you simply don't have when you engage in something other than nonviolent struggle.

Gandhi and supporters pushed the British out of India without weapons. That appeared to most around the world as an unstoppable force. The key was that the few we're trying to rule over the many and were treating the many very poorly (sound familiar?). This is a situation that is unsustainable.

Wake up people. For every 1 of them, there are 99 of us that are feeding this machine with our actions daily. Stop cooperating and engage in nonviolent direct action, nonviolent active resistance and nonviolent noncooperation. The guy in Tiannanmen standing in front of the tank... That image.... If he was firing a rocket launcher, would the image convey an entirely different message... One of stupidity.

[-] 0 points by barbarosa (-5) 2 years ago

The difference is their position was correct and clear. It was obvious that colonizers were controlling Indian people, and that white people were controlling black people. It was evident this was incorrect, not egalitarian, and that the solutions were also clear. Indians had to reclaim their territory, and black people needed to fight for equal rights.

This made it easy for them to garner growing support. The shy had only to wait for the brave to line up with Gandhi and MLK first, then they followed suit. It wasn't a question of wondering if they should join these leaders for philosophical reasons, it was just a question of whether they were brave enough and if it was safe. Once many people joined, the rest followed.

With OWS it's extremely different because the path to the solution is not clear to everyone. People have different ideas of how the problem should be resolved. Many don't even think there is a problem with capitalism. All black people and indian people knew there was a problem. That's far from the case with Americans.

Once we realize that we have more in common than we have separating us, we will be in a position to make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness.

We're very far from that, very far indeed. Look, this very website which is for people who support Occupy is filled with occupiers who constantly attack the republicans and the right wing. If Occupiers do this, those that are supposed to follow the Occupy ideology of reuniting the left and right wings over common ground to form the 99%, how to you expect to unite people outside of Occupy. Furthermore, people in the Occupy movement don't even agree on the basic principles of how to solve the problem. Some want to replace the system with anarcho-communism or libertarian socialism, others want to keep the republic and just tighten laws, others want to keep the status quo but all their energy on attacking the republicans specifically. When you go outside of Occupy, the solutions are even more numerous.

That's why Occupy will always have a numbers problem. The exact problematic is not clear to everyone, some don't even see it, and the proposed solutions are numerous. Both in Ghandi and MLK's cases everything was clear, hence the ease with which to find support form their people.

Until the problematic becomes clear, and the solution becomes clear, we'll never have the power of unity. And, I'm not sure this is possible. The situations is more complex than that of Gandhi and MLK, not because of opposing forces, but because we can't agree amongst each other of what should be done.

[-] 5 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

I disagree. At one point in the November 2011, two major news outlets ran polls that showed that 40-50% agreed with Occupy Wall Street protesters. You play make it seem as if everything is divisive and there a hundreds of angles. But the fact is Americans know full well that their government has been hijacked by corporate interests. There is quite a bit of unity around that idea.


[-] 3 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Both you and therising raise valid points. We are fighting the corporate/government tyranny as much as the decades of brainwashing that tyranny has already enveloped us in.

The distortion of thought spread by the MSM is greater than any weapon wielded by police force or army. We will need to work twice as hard to enable people to separate fact from fiction and clearly see just how oppressed we've actually become.

[-] 4 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Well said.