Forum Post: Why do most "democrats" only call a president a War Monger when the president is a republican?
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 10, 2012, 2:43 a.m. EST by TrevorMnemonic
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Why do most "democrats" only call a president a War Monger when the president is a republican?
Some people will go on about Bush being a war monger but then defend Obama to their grave. I've never understood this.
War crimes are war crimes. Being a democrat or a republican changes nothing.
Partisan politics makes people idiots. A republican can only see faults in a democrat and vice versa. The two parties are designed to divide Americans against themselves, so the corporate oligarchs can go about their despotism without worrying about a united American people stopping them.
You make a valid point. Sadly, they are all war mongerers.
I was laughing my rear off when they decided to give him a Nobel Peace Prize...
Continuing to fight 2 wars started by his predecessor is one thing. Engaging in conflict in Libya, fomenting crisis in Iran and Syria are quite another.
If he (and other US presidents) were so committed to liberty freedom and equality... they need to start asking our allies to clean house first... Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, heck... even the UK... what with Ireland and the Falklands...
Not to mention... they need to start applying the same rules to countries without oil... such as... every other country in Africa... then there is Yemen... lots of violence bloodshed and oppression there... no US troops spreading our gospel of 'freedom' though... oh... I forgot... no oil...
It's a matter of ideological narrow mindedness. The inability for many people to look at facts, without emotion, but just purely the data, is difficult for most. Many in my family loathed Bush for Afghanistan and Iraq, but praise Obama for Libya and the drone attacks in Yemen, Pakistan, etc. I cannot relate to this mindset.
The ones you speak of are called Hypocrites.
More accurately, the one you speak of are still trapped in antagonistic party power plays.
Democrats are holy and anything they do is right. Don't you get it if a Democrat does it he is right they are holy. If a Republican does it they are evil, they are not anointed. DUH
If nothing else, the Rs are brilliant at twisting words and redefining them -
Orwell has nothing to teach them.
WIKIPEDIA: "is a pejorative term that is used to describe someone who is
eager to encourage a people or nation to go to war."
I'm a liberal Democrat and I call bush a war monger - not because he started a war with Afganistan - but because he and his war profiteers started a war in Iraq. He and his controllers were eager to encourage us & lied is into that war an made a fortune for them.
WAR MONGER bush - cost America thousands of lives and trillions of dollars.
IMHO- most Rs agree with this - or why have we not repeatedly heard from today's Rs candidates how bush vanquised Iraq? like they claim ronnie vanquished the Soviet Union.
LBJ was a war monger based on the Gulf of Tonkien situation
FDR was not a war monger because he put Japanese-Americans in camps - but it was a stain on America and on him
Obama is not a war monger.
He has never been eager to encourage war.
I disagree with his stance on more troops in Afganistan.
I agree with his actions in Lybia.
I agree with his use of drones to kill terrorists.
I agree with his stance on Osama.
Whay can't an Rs make a point without lies and distortions?
IMHO- they have been lemmings since birth -
taught the world is 6000 years old -
that evolution is not fact -
that Noah got the kangaroos back to Australia -
that God wrote the bible -
that fox is fair and balanced -
that no matter how evil your sin,
...........if you pay enough or pray enough, you can get into heaven
It takes a certain kind of brain to believe - without thinking
I believe they call it a lemming
You do know Halliburton and KBR are still making money under the Obama administration right? The same war profiteers making all that money under Bush.
I appreciate your response, I disagree with you on the topic of Obama, but your response is a good one in the eyes of debate. I think what's being done to Iran is war mongering. Trying to get them to attack first, pushing and pushing them closer to the edge. I think that Iraq and Libya had the same goal, to take a bad guy out of power, Obama just didn't lie about it firstly, and didn't do an occupation. But the WMD lie about Iraq seems to be happening with Iran now. Although Bush said Iraq had WMD's and Obama is saying Iran could potentially make one.
In all honesty what I see with Obama seems to be a continuation of the Bush war legacy against the middle east.
Here are some liberals on the topic -
"Why don’t we say what’s on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached." - Ralph Nader - http://www.salon.com/2011/03/21/ralph_nader_obama_impeachment/
Dennis Kucinich on the topic - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b-VaxqZuvo
Dennis Kucinich again - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVo7-gOkqo
Halliburton is not making money from war anymore because THEY DIDN"T SUPPORT OBAMA.
Don't be ridiculous, Obama is not a war monger because he says he doesn't like war. He doesn't encourage others to go to war. Every time he has engaged in war, he followed the proper procedures, got congress to vote, made a formal declaration of war, and followed every step to ensure it was only to defend our country per the US constitution. Contrast that with the Bush administration if you can tolerate thought for that long. Stop hating on the man because he is black for once and think objectively about something.
Congress did not vote on Libya. Look it up. "The president ordered a military operation in Libya on March 19 without congressional approval, a violation of Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution."
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-asks-congress-debate-and-vote-president-s-use-force-libya
The ACLU has also recently filed a law suit against Obama for war crimes. They've done it before too. Even the ACLU does not approve of Obama when it comes to war.
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/02/aclu_sues_obama_administration_over_assassination_secrecy/
Halliburton profits exceed previous year under Obama administration.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/26/161227/halliburton-brings-in-record-5-3-billion-in-first-quarter/
Race has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Please don't bring racist commentary to this subject.
Obama taught constitutional law for ten years. Don't sit there and tell me he'd do something as childish and rookie as openly violating the US constitution. The Repukes have been looking for an excuse to get him out of the white house for four years. They'd be all over something like that and impeach him in seconds.
Your moronic comment deserves no reply, but you baited, so why not. What the hell has made you so damn sick in the head to race bait? JuanFenito you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for such a provocative and flaming insult. Racism will never stop as long as idiots like you drag it into conversation in a pathetic and unthoughtful way as you do. Now go stand in the corner until I say you can come out.
Go stand in the corner? Why don't you go stand on a slave block and tell me how it feels. I might believe you're not racist if you tell me you've never used the "N" word.
N word was common lingo when I was growing up. Get over it.
"get over it"? get over it. "GET OVER IT?" Listen, dude. There are people out there suffering. The system is skewed towards the smart. We need to make the playing field level, by making smart decisions for those who will not on their own. You will thank us for it later.
I think "You", whoever that is, will forever be cursed for trying to make a " level playing field". What is level, and who makes it their job to decide what the playing field is? Btw, pal, you don't know what it is like to stand on a slave block. Unless your 180 years old.
Thank you. I am so proud of Obama. He's very close to "perfect" in an obscenely imperfect world. Kirby, you go try that. Using swear words doesn't lend credence to your arguments.
What do you mean "Very close" to perfect? Tell me something he has done wrong. One thing. I ignore the lies, don't tell me you fall for them.
Hey, I only included that "very close" phrase because he is, after all, a human being, and I don't know him personally or at least can't presume to really know him on a personal level, so reserve judgment on whether he is actually truly perfect. Personally and objectively I actually can't find a single thing wrong with him or anything he's done. I just can't presume to know every single thing he's ever done, that's all. I actually find everything reported on him to be so completely high quality and above board I can hardly believe our great good luck to have as terrific a leader as he is. I practically pinch myself in disbelief when I hear him speak, listen to his ideas, proposals, watch him solve problems like crazy, put up with ridiculous obstructionist republicans in congress, etc., and continue just doing what amounts to God's work for religious folks, and plain old great work as far as everyone else is concerned.
Everyone else I know feels the same way, too.
Thank you for asking about this. I am happy to agree with you.
The people that run the parties could care less whose in power, hence the Dem party running the Senate and Exec branch and we have bombed 6 nations in three years.
Brutal attacks. This is unacceptable.
Great question!
I do not "subscribe" to political parties. I vote based on the candidate being an individual, and not because of their "group". I will cast my vote for a candidate based on their principles, and especially whether their words are backed up by their voting record.
Legit comment. If only everyone did this. Our elections would be so much better.
Yes, thank you. People should stop following the "directives" of the mainstream media and think with their own mind.
robot respose , sorry getting tired
building bombs 'til bunkers boil *
getting paid for shell filled toil *
if I am to work tomorrow *
lobe the load on foreign soil
Go to bed and dream of your Utopian World free of everything but Green.
i need to research the party more
but no one else seems to be talking for the party
funny, I saw them at the protests
[Removed]
Having read through all the posts in this forum, I have to say, both Treavor and Gypsy are right. Obama is a war monger and is no liberal. But Gypsy is correct in stating that there is no better choice than "the lesser of evils". A non vote is a vote for the rabid Republicans. Many decisions in life amount to "the lesser of evils". To be otherwise would imply that one choice could be perfect. That doesn't seem to occur too often in real life.
Good comment. I can see Gypsy's side, just not his presentation on the subject. There was too much attack and accusation in his approach. Hopefully in 2016 there will be a better democratic option.
Also I did not suggest for people not to vote.
I myself just cannot vote for anyone who supports war. Back in the day I'd get called a hippy. Now people call me a "Paultard" or suggest something about Ron Paul. Being anti-war is what the liberals are supposed to be.
And to clarify I am not voting Ron Paul. A lot of his cuts I consider austerity measures and that's not going too well for Greece.
I'd prefer to vote for Dennis Kucinich, but he's not running for president this time around. End the wars and pass HR 2990! It's what this country needs.
I absolutely agree that Kucinich would have been a better Pres. We have no "viable" liberal candidate running. If Dennis will run in 2016, we should all be getting behind him now. If not, we need a candidate who reflects our values.
I'm curious about your name... What would you classify as a neoliberal? And who would you include in that list? I recently bought a Flobots CD and they are very anti-war and speak about equality and such all the time. One of their lyrics includes "Say no to neoliberal globalization."
Neoliberalism is an economic philosophy that has been adopted by much of the world. It particularly took hold in this country under Reagan and in Britain under Thatcher. It is not to be confused with social liberalism, which is pretty much in direct opposition to Neoliberalism. It amounts to a total "free market" ideology. Neo, meaning new, or revived, and liberal, as in liberal economics. Basically the same laissez-faire mentality that brought about the Great Depression. http://corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376
I think you really need to step back a bit and look at our recent history. I agree with you that Obama has been a pretty right-wing Democrat, but he inherited these wars and a destroyed economy from Bush. At the end of the Clinton administration we were in pretty good shape economically and at peace. There is no question that the Republicans have been both the war-mongers and the deficit spenders over the last fifty years. That is a fact, historically substanciated. Not only that, but the Republicans have just obstructed the Democratic agenda at every turn during Obama's administration.
I'm surprised, I really thought you had a more realistic historical view than this post implies. I really thought maybe someone had stolen your user-name.
Inherited the wars? So he did not extend, strengthen, and grow the war in Afghanistan? He did not push to start a war with NATO against Libya to remove it's leader, similar to Bush's justification for Iraq? He is not authorizing to bomb more countries than Bush? Does't work like that anymore. Saying "inherited" no longer works here.
And 3 years to end a "dumb war" ?
What about the democrats constant attack against Bush for Halliburton and KBR? Last time I checked Halliburton still gets no bid contracts. The war profiteers are still in full swing just in different ways.
Pretty lame that my calling Obama a war monger makes me lose credibility in your eyes. War crimes are war crimes.
I have pointed this out before, but I'll point it out again. The Democrats have the White House. The 1% have the House of Representitives and a sixty vote gag rule over The Senate. They also have the Supreme Court, the corporations, the banks, the media, and virtually every other seat of power in America.
Now, do you think it is a good idea to also hand them the Presidency, and if so why the FUCK don't you spread your fithy lies somewhere else, somewhere you're welcome, like the Fucking John Birch Society?!!!
Once again, I am not suggesting to support the GOP. You keep implying that I am. It's annoying and stupid.
You should grow up. I'm don't really feel like having an internet argument about name calling. OWS is not an Obama fan club because GypsyKing likes Obama.
Also my query from this post is a thought similarly shared by liberals like Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader.
"Why don’t we say what’s on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached." - Nader
http://www.salon.com/2011/03/21/ralph_nader_obama_impeachment/
Dennis Kucinich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b-VaxqZuvo
Dennis Kucinich again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVo7-gOkqo
You simply refuse to address my point! I asked you if you had a better plan. Rather then respond, you simply go on and on. Do you have a better strategy? I don't want to make this personal, but you simply don't respond. Do you have a BETTER STRATEGY?
My plan is to no vote for a pro-war president that loves Monsanto and Goldman Sachs. My plan is to get people off the lesser of two evils mind set. The lesser of two evils is a failure because evil always prevails in either small or large. People need to pay more attention to congress as well. Basically people have to become aware and understand how the process works and stop voting for frauds. Do you know why so many republicans are voting for Romney? Because they don't want Obama to win. Don't you think it's odd to use a republican voting tactic to choose who you vote for?
That's not a plan. You are a fraud.
How am I a fraud? Because I speak out against war?
My plan is to not vote for people who support war.
Nice name calling again. Way to be an adult.
Please see my upcoming reply. Perhaps we are not so far apart as we think. I really agree with much of what you are saying. Our political situation is very complex, and sometimes the nuances create the perception of greater differences than really exist. Thanks for the honest conversation!
It is not a war if a peace lover like Obama starts it. Wars create poverty. Wars create death and destruction. What you see in Libya is prosperity and freedom.
I sense sarcasm.
From what I've read it seems like Libya is going to turn out as well as supporting the Mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs did in the 1980's. Gaddafi killed people who oppose him. And we replaced him with people who kill people who oppose them also while bombing the hell out of Libya..
"We" replaced him? No. The people of libya replaced him.We had an extremely minor role.
More bogus BS.
For people who show no sense of shame for all the damage, suffering and death you have caused, you are sure working frantically to re-write history.
Not going to work.
The unspeakable ever-increasing plethora of shit and hell deliberately caused by you Republcons working for the greed-addled few in the 1% who prospered from it all, has branded the hearts and minds of Americans and the international community FOREVER!
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
How am I rewriting history?
I am against the wars by the way and have been. It's what this entire post is about actually. The wars are supported by republicans and democrats.
I am not a republican either. I actually disagree with 95% of republicans and 80% of democrats. Rough estimate by the way.
It's possible you are a newbie and don't know better. But as the famous line goes, "Ignorance is no excuse."
When a president is try to UNDO crap that the previous party (Cons) did and Cons now run Congress legitimately and through intimidation and sabotage, and Cons have no qualms causing more damage (after all, they are there to prove government doesn't work) things are bound to get messy. That's what is happening. There is no switch to turn war off. No pill to make the pain go away. No fast-forward to move things along. But there are infinite snipers and ieds waiting for us when we go in to fix things.
Read my list of facts in my large reply below. You have yet to point out one area where I "rewrote history."
I replied to it.
You're welcome.
You didn't include where I supposedly "rewrote history."
I forgot and I'm not going back to look. I hope I helped you. But quit trying to find non-existent perfection and rewriting history.
You sound like Herman Cain, "I don't have any facts to back this up..." and then you go on with your accusation without facts. Claiming I "rewrote history" and then failing over and over again to include how I did so in all of your replies. Lulz. Have a good night!
If that's all you have to draw on, I can see your point.
But a younger Arthur Schlesinger would be more like it.
Goddmaned FUCKING right Jiffy!!!
Hi-5!
What is this guy, Republicon Youth cadet?
Or Wrong Paul disciple?
Lulz, you should see what I used to say about Bush. I am just as anti-republican as you... does not mean I have to support Obama.
I'll repeat what I said to GypsyKing
You two should grow up. I don't really feel like having an internet argument about name calling. OWS is not an Obama fan club because GypsyKing likes Obama.
Also my query from this post is a thought similarly shared by liberals like Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader.
"Why don’t we say what’s on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached." - Nader
http://www.salon.com/2011/03/21/ralph_nader_obama_impeachment/
Dennis Kucinich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b-VaxqZuvo
Dennis Kucinich again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVo7-gOkqo
OK, I'll try and grow up.
Damn, I don't know. All I know is that we better keep the single branch of government we still have in Democratic hands, in Democratic hands. Then we better get the other branches in Democratic hands, and get rid of the sold-out democrats. Then we better go after the corporations and the banks before they strangle the lot of us. Then we better form a third party to get the whole bunch of these sold-out assholes in prison!
Sorry about the profanity but this has all just gone too far!!!
Can't be profane enough.
I frankly wish that profanity was much less restricted. What could ever be more profane than Limpaw and the other hate and lie talkers? They need to be labeled, rated and restricted, more than cigs and porn, XXXX.
What's this about you leaving and coming back? Nevermind, just stay back.
We must dissuade this false notion of perfection. There is only Worse and Better.
You address a number of points here; I used to believe that profanity was perfectly justified because "civilization" apparently didn't object to napalming babies, but considered it obscene to say the word "fuck."
Now I have realized that profanity is usually just a matter of inprecise communication, and I think we must all step up the clarity of our communication. This clarity of communication is, I think, the essential point in bringing people together.
As far as leaving, and coming back; well, sometimes a person needs to do some soul searching. The issues here are so complex that there are times I feel overwealmed, and at such times I'm not sure that what I am contribuing is of any real value.
I admit without reservation that the complexities of what we are trying to achieve here, at times, leave me feeling completely overwealmed.
Profanity can effect legitimacy and credibility and in Journalism school they teach you that your integrity is paramount, a journalist's stock-in-trade. Same with spelling and grammar.
Yet there is this puritanical cleansing of profanity in media dialogue that is very annoying (ruins movies), especially considering the profane and obscene things we see and hear from Abu Ghraib, post bail-out Wall Street bonus checks, the naked yawning gap between the rich and poor, homeless vets, to Hannity, and on and on. All this is apparently acceptable, while "shit" is completely intolerable. Look at the controversy of Madonna's act. Huge fines for a finger, but nothing for the 24/7 hate and lies that cause some people to kill, ala Tuscon.
I say we have our fucking priorities fucked up, and I don't believe in god damn accidents anymore!
Let's make things simpler, if we can. Let's employ K.I.S.S. Let's make sure OWS and all other Occupies have a clear, undeniable and united message. This includes the clearest of all: the American flag, without graffiti. This anarchy shit is just that. And work for good election returns. We must clean out the Congress of Cons, baggers and DINOs. Obama is nearly alone up there. Message and Congress.
They are gearing up for 2016 with fatso from New Jersey. This election for the Cons is about softening the opposition and holding Congress for the next wave of attacks.
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Agreed! Obama can't stand against the gauntlet of opposition alone, whether he wants to or not.
Sorry about the spelling, I have dyslexia, and don't use spell check for that very reason. If I use it my spelling just gets worse.
I do too, and never leave the house without it (spell check). I have better things to think about. Spelling school is over.
I was so saddened by the let down Obama received in 2010. I attended his rallying speech here in PDX and around the country on line. He could not have worked harder, and he tried, and millions of voters succumbed to the hype and the sabotage and pouted. Newbie petulant Dems pouting because Cons sat their big fat elephant smack down on the Hope and Change hose, allowing only a trickle to come out. How stupid and vacant these Dems were to blame him! And look at the results in Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, and more. I'd say it serves them fucking right for such betrayal, but look at all the suffering and years we lose in the march for progress in those Conned and Bagged states, not to mention Congress!!
That's why I keep saying 2010 Never EVER Again, I want these petulant little fucks to choke on their shame, and learn their lesson, so we can achieve our goals. Yeah right, with a mighty army of cats. Jesus!
We'll get there finally, I think. Churchill said that "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing when they have exhausted every other option." I think he was right. He was the only right-winger I ever admired, because he actually was great, rather than someone who thought he was great.
Sorry, but I have to address this damn spelling issue once again. The interconnection between the right brain and left brain is complex. More so than many people think. The nature of composition is separate from the nauture of reduction. The failure to understand this is why many writers have nothing to say, even though they spell their trivia expertly.
You say you have a degree in journalism. Well, so you learned to spell.
It is easy to tell others what they should do, but that is lacking in one thing, that of not being the person you critisize. What we must strive for, each in our own way, is the integrattion of the left brain, the right brain, the amigdula, and the transcendent soul. That is a challenge that leaves spelling in the dust.
When I hear people say that things have to get really bad before they can get better I just cringe. I did a random public survey and asked hundreds of people a short list of questions regarding the same issues we are dealing with today and what the solutions might be, 100s of hours of tape, and almost everybody said the same thing: "When things get really bad people will wake up and do something." That was 1988. I'm through with waiting. See "Idiocracy" it's supposed to be a spoof, but it's really a damning Omen.
I don't mean to criticize or, much less, demean, I'm just helping. I can be brusk. We help each other cuz we may save each others life. This is Life During War Time, This ain't no fool'n around.
My girlfriend is an ex-English teacher, so I have to be on my toes. No matter what I learned, dyslexia wins, hands down.
Right brain, left, I'm all the artsy one. No connection. I'm also ADD, extreme hunter gatherer. I'm supposed to be writing/finishing a book, but I can't resist all these little challenges.
I was commenting on the China is America (?) post, and I realized, America did great things when FDR had a Dem Congress, and they've (Cons) been dragging us back down ever since. I said we should probably round up all the Cons and get on with it. After OWS message and our congress, we need to get the money out. Free up our government so we can show the world and this new generation what America can really do.
Transcendence may leave spelling in your dust, or mine, but in a war any weakness can be exploited. Bad spelling on the Tea Bagger signs made them instant fools. What I saw on TV (where the vast majority get everything they know) and in person of our local Occupy was cringe-worthy embarrassing. We woke people up, GREAT!! But they saw a bunch of Woodstock reenactments, and worse. We can and have to do better. We have to set examples where ever we can. Because we are only flawed humans and other mistakes will be made.
Unite and win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Point taken, thanks.
the Korean war started with Harry S. Truman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson#Vietnam_War
Oh, Christ! I know! We all know the problem is the two party system, but we can sway the Democrats because we are part of their constituancy. We cannot sway the Republicans at all. That is obvous, and the question is becoming tiresome! We need to elect Democrats and force them to the left in the short run. After the next election we can form a third party. If you have a better plan, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!
I will probably vote green
they've gotten candidates into office smaller government offices
http://www.greenparty.org/Platform.php
displaced military workers could have to given jobs in healthcare
Yeah not vote for Monsanto and Goldman Sachs loving frauds is a 10 times better plan.
If people keep voting for the lesser of two evils, we will always have evil in the white house.
Yeah, lets vote for the more evil of two evils, that'll solve the problem!
Why the HELL can't you people just screw up what's left of your manhood and do what's right for a change? You might find it refreshing.
I am not suggesting anyone vote republican. In fact I recommend not doing that. I also recommend not voting Obama.
4 more years of war - Obama 2012.
You asked "Why the HELL can't you people just screw up what's left of your manhood and do what's right for a change?"
Supporting 4 more years of war, bank fraud bail outs, and appointing Monsanto to the FDA is the right thing to do?
See my post below. The 1% are still in firm control, and if you think the Presidency, under a shadow government, without the backing of congress, up against the Supreme Court and the new, draconian election financiing laws, AND the Corporate structure, represents the real power in America, than you are an idiot, or a fraud and should take you fucking opinions somewhere else where they're welcome!
Lulz, you act like I support the problems you speak of.
It is in fact possible to disagree with Obama and the wars, and also think that congress and the supreme are also corrupt, all while also disagreeing with everything the GOP stands for.
Take your hatred elsewhere. Your hatred is purely based on the fact that I don't agree with the president about war, his support for the patriot act, his support for Monsanto in the FDA, and his support for Goldman Sachs. You keep trying to lump me into some category and shout different things off topic like I support them. And that is ignorant.
my friend gets her unemployment from bank of america
the government does not need to be using private institutions for public money
I ask you again if you have a better solution than what I have advocated. I don't give a damn about the whole Republican Vs. Democratic debate. I want to see a method, ans actual means to solve these problems. I ahve said we can sway the Democrats because we are part of their constituancy, but not the Republicans. You just refuse to answer me as far as concrete means are conserned. I you don't address this, an actual way forward, I will just consider you a stooge for the Republicans.
Good for you. Your plan is like my plan. Only your first step is to vote for Obama. That's the only difference. This must mean you are also a stooge? Or since you like Obama it means you're better than me? Good logic.
Like I said, my plan is to vote against war. I'm still undecided on my vote as of now. I just know it won't be for Obama and it definitely won't be for a republican in 2012.
Your opinion on a "plan" does not change war crimes under the Obama administration either.
Fine, vote for whoever you will, it's a free country. But if you try to convince others that that is in their interests I'm bound to disagree with you. So let's let it stand there. Please disregard my comment about your being a fraud. Perhaps you're acting out of your conscience as you see fit. I can respect that, but I don't agree.
You see, I am really concerned that this country is teetering on the brink of fascism, and I feel duty bound to do whatever I can to prevent that.
You have a right to excercize your beliefs, and I hope that you will allow me to excercse mine. We are probably not as far apart as all of this implies.
I'm sorry if I became too abrasive. I'm sure, given a talk face to face that we could understand each other.
I completely agree that fascism is trying to build it's way into this country and that the republican party has a lot to do with it. I have many posts on this site in that regard. At the same time though, the wars are the lube for this fascist dildo being rammed into the ass of our country. Everything that's infringed on our bill of rights has been done in the name patriotism and the fight against terrorism.
The man who should have been president in 2008, Dennis Kucinich, says it all nicely in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQapTltwwag
I completely agree with you about Kucinich. He is the real deal. I think we really see things very much the same way, and so I regret the misunderstanding. My point is tactical rather than philisophical. I simply feel that we cannot afford to let any more power fall into the hands of the Republican 1%. Given the current two party system, I think we must have a Democratic landslide in the next election, an absolute landslide, and them we must carve up this two party turkey!
Please accept my apologies for my misunderstanding of you essential position.
S'all good.
It's rather defeatist to assume Republicans cannot be swayed. All politicians must be swayed. You are setting the bar too low. Wall St is not a bastion of Republicans. Hell, they were Obama's biggest backers in 08 but will not be this time around.
I don't buy that for one minute. Let me quote ZenDog here: The Repelicans are DONE!!!
Their continual push against labor laws and workers rights will eventually open their constituents' eyes to the fraud and bullshit that is the GOP. Sadly most of them will have to see it first hand for that to happen, and there is still a good chance Fox News will get them to blame Obama's supposed "war on religion."
Given what we have seen I think you are right. But I think we need to downgrade human intelligence as a result. I have a dog that's smarter than that.
You do realize that your response to my response had nothing to do with my response? You don't buy what in my statement above?
You think Republicans can be swayed? Ha, ha, ha, ha . . .!!!
is not being bought or corrupted the same as being swayed?
The Republicans simply are the party that's bought and corrupted. If they didn't stand for that they wouldn't stand for anything.
Has everyone forgotten a day in Sept of 01 that started Bush on his path of war mongering? Have they also forgotten who was president when we started committing combat troops to Viet Nam? I mention VN since it contradicts your Reps have been war mongers over the last 50 yrs statement. When did war in VN end? Was it after 8 yrs of dem presidencies and when a rep was finally back in the WH?
Jesus, Kennedy was assassinated, in Texas. Johnson was installed. Most Democrats hated him, which was why we got Tricky Dick. You know why he stopped that war? Because the troops were in open rebellion, that's why. It wasn't because he was a "kinder and gentler" conservative, as GWB said he was going to be.
We've got two parties - one that can be swayed by the masses because we make up part of their constituancy - the other totally beholding to the 1/10th of the 1%. We can't change the two party system between now and November. Which party should we vote for? It's a no brainer.
After the election let's form a third party, and flush this two party system! Agreed?
Agree...with your last statement, only. lol
All right. But if the first doesn't happen, the second never will. You just don't know the power and the evil we're up against, you really don't.
i look at it from a different perspective, Obama is doing a great job killing the islamofascist. Keep it up Mr President, as we all know, the only way to end terrorism is to kill as many of them (terrorist) as you can.
This is a bogus BS post. Standard straw man. Consider the presidency of LBJ.
The Bush-Cheney presidency was an abysmal failure to America in ways we are still finding out about, because this was the most clandestine administration we have ever suffered. It was a great success for the Republicon Party and the few 1% who don't care who suffers as long as they prosper. And we will be suffering from the damage and theft this Republicon cabal of criminal zealots has wrought for many years to come. Let's hope we never make the mistake of letting them back in power ever again.
First I am not a republican and I find the GOP is a bane to America, but I am not so disillusioned to think Obama is some great savior.
If Obama meant to do what he speaks about he would have taken Dennis Kucinich's NEED Act, HR 2990, around the country to gain support like he tried with his lobbyist approved jobs plan.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-2990
Here's a list of facts I have collected for people just like you. With links to back the facts.
In 2009, Obama himself appointed Michael Taylor as a senior adviser for the FDA even though Taylor had formerly served as a vice president for Monsanto.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/monsanto-petition-tells-obama-cease-fda-ties-to-monsanto/2012/01/30/gIQAA9dZcQ_blog.html
Wall Street's takeover of the Obama administration is now complete. "The mega-banks and their corporate allies control every economic policy position of consequence. Mr. Obama has moved rapidly since the November debacle to install business people where it counts most. Mr.William Daley from JP Morgan Chase as White House Chief of Staff. Mr. Gene Sperling from the Goldman Sachs payroll to be director of the National Economic Council. Eileen Rominger from Goldman Sachs named director of the SEC's Investment Management division. Even the National Security Advisor, Thomas Donilon, was executive vice president for law and policy at the disgraced Fannie Mae after serving as a corporate lobbyist with O'Melveny & Roberts. The keystone of the business friendly team was put in place on Friday. General Electric Chairman and CEO Jeffrey Immelt will serve as chair of the president's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-brenner/barack-obama-out-of-the-c_b_813027.html
He supported the bailouts of a fraudulent financial system that is extracting wealth from our country and stealing people's pensions and homes. The bailout money was used by the federal reserve to create 7.7 trillion dollars out of thin air for their own private interest, and Obama has yet to do anything about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BXPINPwp4w
OBAMA Administration could grant criminal immunity to Wells Fargo, Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, and Citibank, those responsible for fraudulent foreclosure practices that drove millions of Americans from their homes during the housing crisis. It's called a settlement.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/165806/obama-brink-settlement-big-banks-and-progressives-are-furious
Obama's new campaign guy his a Wall Street lobbyist
http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/obama-defies-base-hires-wall-street-lobbyist-for-re-election-campaign/#ixzz1cQ6oOt4U
"Is this the United States congress, or the board of directors of Goldman Sachs?"-Dennis Kucinich
The Federal Reserve is not a government agency. It's a private for profit bank ran by frauds. Its a Ponzi scheme where they issue debt created from thin air and then they STEAL your tax money and put it in their wallets and their cronies' pockets. You know those trillions of dollars in government debt? Who do you think pays the interest on it?!?! WE DO! The Federal Reserve has no accountability and create trillions of dollars out of thin air for their own private interests all the while devaluing our US dollar. You don't see Obama trying to correct this fraudulent system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YimTs6Q_xD0
He's bombed more countries than Bush. Countries like Libya, Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan... etc
His administration is also selling military supplies to the regime in Bahrain that is killing protesters.
http://www.salon.com/2012/01/30/obama_quietly_sells_arms_to_human_rights_abuser_bahrain/
He extended the Bush tax cuts.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20026069-503544.html
Obama also supports ACTA which is essentially a global version of SOPA that applies to all goods.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/23/if-you-thought-sopa-was-bad-just-wait-until-you-meet-acta/
He never actually closed guantanamo bay.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/guantanamo-bay-how-the-white-house-lost-the-fight-to-close-it/2011/04/14/AFtxR5XE_story.html
He lied about ending the wars in Iraq and the current withdrawal was technically scheduled by the Bush administration. The departure from Iraq was required by the 2008 Iraq-U.S. Status of Forces Agreement signed by Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and then-President George W. Bush and approved by the Iraqi parliament, giving it the status of law. Once the troops left Iraq, big oil stayed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/obama-iraq_n_1032507.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUTYL8HfCGo
Obama also supported the patriot act, which essentially deletes the 4th amendment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqXmQYHV-1I
He's started unconstitutional acts of war against Libya, which he spoke out against when Bush did that to Iraq.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVo7-gOkqo
Congress is just as much to blame, if not more, however Obama still signed for the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial into law under provisions of the NDAA and "designates the world as the battlefield and that includes the homeland." -quote senator Lindsey Graham who supported the bill and argued in it's favor.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/12/14/us-refusal-veto-detainee-bill-historic-tragedy-rights
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/15/obama_to_sign_indefinite_detention_bill_into_law/
“This bill [the NDAA] authorizes permanent warfare anywhere in the world. It gives the president unchecked power to pursue war. It diminishes the role of this Congress. The founders saw Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, which places in the hands of Congress the war power, as essential to a check and balance against the executive abuse of power. This legislation diminishes Congress' role in that regard.” - Dennis Kucinich
In reference to the passing of the new NDAA the Armed Services Committee released this,"the threats posed by al Qaeda cells in Yemen and Africa underscore the evolving and continuing nature of the terrorist threat to the United States. The Conference Report ensures the United States will have the ability to meet this threat and neutralize terrorists from these groups and conduct effective interrogations." More war for Obama!
http://armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=23d194d7-78c9-4c57-b2d9-31bc3bb7daeb
List of terrorist organizations our country could start war with and the countries they're in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
"This [the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011] designates the WORLD as the battlefield... and that includes the homeland."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzFygkHgi34
Here is super Liberal Dennis Kucinich railing against Al Qaeda ties with the Libyan rebels as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSUnluGSOdM&list=FLEwSllwonAZBCc7W3e27_dQ&index=43&feature=plpp_video
NATO commander admits that "flickers" of Al Qaeda and Hezbollah terrorists among the Libyan rebels. This should officially classify them as "associated forces."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtGe6zk52Cw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtGe6zk52Cw
Here's an article on the unconstitutional actions by Obama and his administration against Libya,
"Why don’t we say what’s on the minds of many legal experts; that the Obama administration is committing war crimes and if Bush should have been impeached, Obama should be impeached."
http://www.salon.com/2011/03/21/ralph_nader_obama_impeachment/ Another good article on the topic.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51595.html
Essentially the Obama administration along with NATO replaced Gaddafi with another form of Gaddafi. They took out a murderer extremist and replaced him with murderer extremists. Very reminiscent of when the US and CIA helped out the Afghan Arabs and the Mujahideen in the 80's.
And to all the remaining Obama fans, of course the republicans suck a lot but the shittyness of the republicans doesn't make Obama a good president.
It's really sad that most "democrats" just say "well Republicans are worse" when it comes to these issues. That's not the way to go about these problems we see in our country. Something actually needs to be done about both parties acting outside of the law and bankrupting the nation. Saying "well, republicans are worse" doesn't solve the problem. Obama works harder for Wall Street and the military industrial complex than he does for main street.
4 more years of Bush's war legacy! - Obama 2012
How resourceful of you. I would encourage any form of research and quest for the truth. But remember, it is easy to amass data to support a preconceived idea. You think Obama is just as bad as Bush, and have the data to prove that Obama has done all the same bad things. Good work.
It's a messy mess and if anyone tries to do anything about it they are going to get dirty, even messy, too.
Dude, perfection only exists in lies and delusions. OK?
There is ONLY better and/or worse. OK?
Obama and many presidents after him will have trouble cleaning up this mess, and they will get dirty, even messy, too.
The CIA hires criminal computer hackers because it takes one to know one. Same with Wall Street criminals.
The movie Network and a resent SNL skit depicts the fact that Big Money (the powers that be) control the Big Picture, not any or all branches of government. There is only so much Obama can do. It's like catching a 20lb fish on 5lb test, very tricky, but you can't just reel'm in.
Worse: Bush-Cheney and Cons created this war and Wall Street mess. Better: Obama would never have caused this mess and is trying to clean it up.
Worse: Bush-Cheney appointed the key creeps to create the Roberts Supreme Court, and they produced Citizens United.
Better: Obama would never appoint such creeps and will appoint Supremes who will revoke Citizens United.
Worse: Bush-Cheney loved our healthcare system and all the payola Big Insurance gave them.
Better: Obama tried to reform the health care system and Big Insurance spent billions to defeat him. Progress was nevertheless made, and we can build on that.
Worse: Status quo on every bad thing that needs to be improved. Better: Progress on as many things that Cons in Congress don't sabotage.
On and on.
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Never said Obama was as bad as Bush. Bush's list of BS is endless. Obama's is only a couple pages.
My point in this original post is that war mongering is war mongering and war crimes are war crimes.
We've been at war for over a decade and Obama is going to continue it into his second term. That is my point. He is a continuation of the Bush war legacy. Not really much else though. Libya? What's next? Iran or Syria? What do you think? I'm hoping diplomacy will be used.
I'm pretty sure you are dead wrong. Caught up in your sense of righteousness.
The war machine and the military industrial market wants endless war, they are war profiteers, which used to be against the law. Much like untold campaign donations via Citizens United. Obama can bitch and moan, and if he is effective they will Kennedy his ass. Or he can finesse changes like he is doing, and live another day to do some more. 5lb test and 20lb fish.
War sucks. But it's our history and entrenched deeply in the very fibers of our nation. The War Machine is very Big Money, and they have more control than anybody. What are you going to do about that?
Like I said my post contains a view point shared by Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader and many other liberals. I'm not just making this stuff up and I provided links to information on this subject that contain facts.
You have yet to quote me on anything you have accused as "dead wrong" or quote me on where I supposedly "rewrote history."
You said, "Obama can bitch and moan, and if he is effective they will Kennedy his ass." that explains everything. LULZ. Wow. Never mind. Talking with you is now pointless since you'll have that little gem to fall back on as your justification for everything.
Just trust me, I don't lie, and I'm almost always right. No, always.
You' welcome.
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Your comment is a cop out to the question. How is it BS?
Bush wanted to invade Iraq because, WMD's and to take out Saddam.
Obama with NATO went to Libya to take out Gaddafi.
Obama administration pissed about the possibility of creating WMD's in Iran.
Our country has bombed more countries than the Bush administration under Obama as well.
War crimes are war crimes.
Because it is a dishonest question based on a dishonest premise. Asked in false sincerity by you, which makes you a liar. That's why I won't play.
Obama and several presidents who give priority to country ~ rather than the success and prosperity of the people who they erroneously work for, as is the case with Republicons ~ will be cleaning up the mess left by Bush-Cheney and the cons for untold decades. It has been and will be a messy job.
This is a bogus BS post. Standard straw man. Consider the presidency of LBJ (PBS did a great doc on him).
The Bush-Cheney presidency was an abysmal failure to America in ways we are still finding out about, because this was the most clandestine administration we have ever suffered. It was a great success for the Republicon Party and the few 1% who don't care who suffers as long as they prosper. And we will be suffering from the damage and theft this Republicon cabal of criminal zealots has wrought for many years to come. Let's hope we never make the mistake of letting them back in power ever again.
No one is arguing how much of a failure the Bush administration is.
I am saying war crimes are war crimes. War is war.
And this nuclear weapon Iran talk reminds me of the propaganda about Iraq and WMD's.
Yes, we heard the same BS talk about North Korea, but Bush-Cheney let them get nukes anyway. Now we don't mess with them. Iran wants a piece of that, we've been fucking with them for decades. Hopefully Obama will stand down. But the Right works for the people who own the media, and being soft on (enter enemy of the minute here) can be a damaging thing to have broadcast 24/7. It's a messy whirled we live in. Ending war is also war.
Thank you. It's a real shame. We just have to do a certain amount of waiting it out at this point, and just keep working away at the edges. It's a matter of outlasting the "bad guys," perhaps.
Read about Dr. Michael Burry and his (unintended) role in creating the "perfect storm" of credit default swaps-induced financial disaster. This is why capitalism must be regulated, transparent, and a little bit boring. We need to take a cue from older civilizations more adept at thinking long-term regarding social organization, economics, and social justice. Abraham Maslow's perspective should be considered as well.
This is actually a very valid post/question. You won't get much action though. The hardcore Leftist's on this Forum are very comfortable with their hypocrisy and double standard ideology and reasoning.
I agree Obama is a war monger.
Thanks. It seems most other people have just decided to answer this question by screaming "REPUBLICAN" at me in all caps. It's kind of sad actually.
I am against the decade plus of wars that seem to keep continuing and a new nation seems to be presented with each passing year. And the only thing a lot of people here want to do is call me a republican? That's crazy.
You won't find too many people that disliked the Bush administration as much as I did. But that changes nothing about the wars and bombs being carried out under Obama.