Forum Post: Why Can’t Any Of You Radicals Debate The Facts?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 5, 2011, 10:28 a.m. EST by MikeInOhio
(13)
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I find it curious that the only people in this forum who can articulate their thoughts in a reasonable manner are the ones who are defending our capitalist system. Can’t you radicals argue your points without using links to Youtube videos of Noam Chomsky? And calling people “stupid” doesn’t really add anything to the debate.
I think your “movement” is a shining example of one of the greatest problems in our country- poorly educated people. I certainly don’t view you folks as ignorant, but I would argue that most of you have little grasp of finance and economics. Do you really believe that your lives would be better if Wall St. and corporations suddenly went away? If so, I would suggest studying Marxism’s impact on “the worker” in the Soviet Union.
Anyone that understands macroeconomic theory can understand that the economic system in the US is rigged. The problem is that the wealthy have hidden behind “capitalism” to take advantage of the rest of society, and that is not capitalism. The wealthy have been able to lobby to get laws in place that benefit them. That is the reason that they have won the class war.
Companies are sitting on huge amounts of cash on their balance sheets. Do you think they don’t know that the power to jumpstart the economy lies in their hands? They have economists, lawyers, and business folks that are only focused on MAKING PROFITS AT ALL COST! And sure… that is the basis of capitalism… But let’s stop kidding ourselves… the corporations do not care that I can put food in my family’s mouth. They don’t. They are not “job creators” either. They are cash hoarders knowing how harmful that is to an economy that is 70% based on consumer spending. These economic conditions are only bad for certain people, not for the wealthy. They are doing just fine, because they have managed to take advantage of our economic and political system.
These same corporations want to use the current economic environment to eliminate regulations that are meant to keep them in check: FDA, EPA, FEMA, all under attack… Regulations exist for a reason. They have proven that the big interests need supervision… They want to even eliminate Sabarnes-Oxley… Did they forget about ENRON and TYCO? Did americans forget that regulation is the result of misbehavior by big corporations? They want to eliminate Dodd-Frank because they say that this regulation is a burden! Dodd-Frank was put in place to protect the economic system from another meltown like the one that the financial industry created! The government wanted to pass regulation that guaranteed that financial firms put the interests of the customers first. They lobbied against it and had the regulation shelved! In some instances they sold investement products to consumers and bet that they would fail! They made money by selling them, and then made money when they failed… With these strategies the financial industry took advantage of retirement trusts, municipal governments, and even countries.
If corporations were to put that cash into hiring, people would have jobs. In turn, people would be able to spend. In turn, companies would get more revenue. The cycle repeats consistently. It is the flow of money that matters. Where is the bottleneck? In the big corporations pockets… The economy is messed up because of THEM, not because of government. Are you so blind? They are not hiring because they want to force the governments hand in the chess game that is politics. Plain and simple. Obama wants to restore some of that power to the people, and that is not in the best interest of the wealthy class in the US. Some people say that companies will not hire until demand increases. Don’t you think that if more people were employed and were making decent wages demand would increase? Either these people do not understand how the economic system is supposed to work, or you basically agree of the greed that plagues the system.
The big interests need to stop playing our country’s population for fools…
Unemployment Insurance is not a hand out. I payed for that through taxes. Social security is not a hand out. I payed for that through taxes. Medicare is not a hand out. I payed for that through taxes. Medicaid is not a hand out. I payed for that through taxes.
The money in this country has moved from the middle class into the hands of the wealthy for the past 30 years. CEO pay has skyrocketed. Average worker pay has decreased. CEOs get golden parachutes for destroying companies, offshoring workers, and laying off people…. Average workers are doomed until they wake up. And I think they might be…
Not a single executive from any financial firm has been prosecuted for the meltdown of our economy. They say it was legal. Sure… They managed to prevent regulation (complex derivatives) they repealed Glass-Steagal and they destroyed our country. Wake up America. You have already lost the class war.
I don't think the rich are doing themselves any favors by keeping money out of circulation
In a utopian society where it is possible to feed and shelter the human population, ambitious projects of creation and construction can be mounted pyramids can be raised or orchestras orchestrated.
We all inherit the ideas and construction from those before us and those around us.
A greater luxury would be to have those around us expanding human knowledge and achievement
Great post. It's amazing how many people want to ignore this and instead create binary arguments about American capitalism vs. Soviet state communism. Isn't there a grey area somewhere in between? In other words, these people will argue that we have to become a Soviet economy in order to rectify unfettered capitalism. It's a terrible argument.
Zinn...
Well said.
Thanks ss, you make some great points. I think the bottleneck you referred to is a real phenomenon. Ask yourself this- if you were running a large company would you build a new plant, or hire new people, when the the economic outlook is so bad? I wouldn't. It's too risky now. I wouldn't want to risk putting the business under. I would save cash in hopes that the economy would improve and then I could build my new factory a few years down the road. I also don't know how Obamacare will affect the cost of insuring my new employees.
Who says CEO paychecks are too large? What about pro football player salaries? How about Union bosses? Who decides how much is appropriate? Corporate CEOs earn their money due to the fact that they are highly sought-out due to their their skills. I can tell you that if I owned a large company I would seek out the best CEO I could afford. If the shareholders thought they were getting ripped off they would fire the CEO. This is nothing new. If we set a cap of $500,000 per year all of the best managers will go to Europe and Asia.
I agree that some people in finance should be prosecuted for the meltdown. And so should Barney Frank, Maxine Waters, and all of the other democrats and republicans who refused to reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac underwriting standards. These standards directly caused the property bubble and subsequent banking problems. This link may be helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg
Such a great post in such a crappy thread! Please consider making this an OP so it will be noticed by more people!
I'm really sorry that you have this twisted world view. I simply do not agree with anything you wrote.
your ass has been bought and sould so many times you dont even see the bar code on your back side
Before you Q&A please remember that both the systems you speak of have a point of power at the top and in no way truly reflect the opinion of the people.
Yes please Q&A and ill give my opinion not that of OWS.
Not really. It's simply another call to revolution.
The lobbyists in King George's court made American colonists go to war against the crown.
The lobbyists of our new American Aristocracy (1%) are making laws against trade for the 99%.
Well, I don't think corporations should go away, I just feel that they shouldn't have a say in our government. Capitalism is great! It just needs to have rules we all abide by.
Capitalism is the pursuit of personal gains through personal actions, which is great! The problem is that people think it doesn't need rules. Everything need rules, or else everything will become corrupt.
As for Wall Street? I think it is bad, and I don't understand why it wasn't dismantled after the great depression. It is basically people gambling with the money of institutions we rely on everyday.
Yes. The government should be keeping the market in check and the citizens are supposed to be keeping the government in check.
Realistically, our system is circular. Except lobbyists [for bankers, etc.] have been putting up walls for citizens to truly keep the government in check.
due to most people's expectation of interest on their savings higher than inflation rates, our system is spiral, not circular
I was referring to the roles between economics and our governments. I did not refer to monetary values.
Yes. The inflation rates may be out-pacing our interest on return.
I do know one fact; my wages do not keep up with inflation nor the cost of living. Inflation is largely caused by the dissociation of the gold system. In 2003, gold was at ~$3 and now its ~$100.
Excellent points. Thank you for the input.
i highly doubt you studied that. i would suggest studying the impact of capitalism on the worker after the abolishment of socialism in russia. you may start with the rate of alcoholics, suicide, joblessness, poverty or the social inequality like the wealth of oil barons. if you want to look what socialism brought russia you need to look at how they lived before socialism which was feudalism, i dont know if you can imagine what its like.
Again, if you can't argue a point it's always easier to disparage the opposition. My wife and her family lived through that grand experiment.
It's also easier to use unverifiable hearsay when you have no facts to make your point.
My wife came from the Soviet Union and she said it was just great. Just kidding, I made that up.
Really, you put on airs like you are some kind of elite fact ninja when all you do is just blabber meaningless talking points and childish insults. You're not very good at this, my friend.
Great, then stop commenting. I'm sure you have far more important things to do.
Twice in a row you've asked me to stop commenting. Does your pussy hurt? What happened to "open discussion"? I guess you are used to the environment of libertarian message boards where you all lovingly cup each others balls, all day, and everyone else gets banned. Welcome to the greater internet, my friend!
Frustration is hard to handle, isn't it?
You know, it took a lot of guts for you to admit that. I'm busting a gut imagining you crying in your keyboard over me spanking you in your own troll thread. :D
trickledown...
I don't think you really understand how pathetic you sound.
Keep posting your trash if it pleases you...just know that you sound like an ignorant fool.
As if I value the opinion of some hillbilly Arizona klansman.
Hahahaah...your ignorance is showing...again.
That's really weird.
why dont you debate the facts ive given?
Sure. Russia has a government run by organized crime. It acts in much the same way unions act in our country. The alcoholism, etc. that you refer to has been brought on by economic decay caused by a criminal government that allocates resources as it sees fit. Those resources are given to the friends of the government and are not allowed to flow through the economy like in our country. Wall St is the conduit for moving capital to where it is most needed in our country, whereas Putin is the conduit in Russia. Also, serfdom ended in 1860, long before the revolution.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/57-east-germans-t112956/index.html?t=112956
ah... corruption too. its everywhere these days.
Mike, you shouldn't classify an entire group by what some people say. Would you like conservatives to be labelled by some random conservative we find out in the boonies?
I am talking about the majority, not splinter groups.
The Soviet Union never emerged into a Democracy. Marxism, on the other hand, argues for it. So your example of the Soviet Union is a poor one, and irrelevant.
There is an idea of economic justice. Now I suggest that you do your own research into it. Peace.
Marxism failed, so did Lenin's and Mao's ideas. The "capitalistic system" of the west is failing as well. Not because the theories are fundamentally wrong, but because of human nature of greed, and therefore the deviation that people in power have applied to the theories. The power structures are out of hand and eventually will have to be better balanced.
Thank you, swica. I don't believe capitalism is failing but your point is well-taken.
I still believe in capitalism in general, but the "exploitation" needs to limited. A certain degree of social responsibility must remain. However, if the social safety net gets too big, too much money flows into the wrong hands, needs to make interest, drives inflation and causes stress to the system. I don't have the perfect solution, but I do sympathize with at least a portion of this movement. We may all feel compelled to contribute to any improvement this might bring.
correct - I would add one other characteristic to greed, laziness (or, fast, easy money).
Understanding and accepting the failures of human nature (in every one of us, just at different levels), then factoring this into ANY system or form of government (80 of them listed in Wikipedia), so as to minimize them, reduce them, correct the trajectory, etc. and you will have a chance at long term sustainability.
No system is perfect. The one I came up with, based on technology (i.e. intenet) and 100% transparency, Open Source Political Framework, is also susceptible to greed and laziness, but because of the Open Source philosophy, the holes will be found and repaired fast (see Why Open Source? http://ospoliticalframework.wordpress.com/about2/why-open-source/), or, the necessary 24/7/360 vigilance that Democracy requires.
It's a lot easier to fight for a new democracy than to maintain one.
absolutely correct. We all can admit to our own faults, but we find it difficult or impossible to pull the plug on our own tub we have been wallowing in for too long. I am very intrigued by this movement ! At the moment, it stills seems unorganized, with an extremely wide spectrum of ideas, some too far removed from reality, some very smart, and everything in between. Up to a certain point, this is positive, as no real opening for direct attack from any opposition will be presented. But soon it will reach critical mass, and some lines will have to be drawn, some realist ideas for improvement will have to verbalized, some kind of leadership will be established, and the true colors will appear. Some people will then decide whether they should jump ship or seriously support the effort. Right now, I am observing and learning.
Socialism and Communism are distinctly different ideologies. Learn the difference, Mike.
As for corporate systems: There are many "worker cooperatives" in the United States, companies which are run democratically by the workers, who also own the company and share equitably in the profits.
The Isthmus Engineering website describes the company's "Seven Cooperative Principles":
• Open membership - no gender, social, racial, political or religious discrimination • Democratic control - one member, one vote • Equitable economic participation among members and distribution of profits based on patronage • Autonomy and independence - controlled by members • Education and training • Cooperation among cooperatives • Concern for community
The Alvarado Street Bakery website describes cooperatives as "a business voluntarily owned and controlled by its member patrons and operated for them and by them on a nonprofit or cost basis. It is owned by the people who use it ... based on the values of self-help, self-responsibility, democracy, equality, equity and solidarity."
In short, business CAN be run ethically and cooperatively; functioning, turning a profit, and benefiting the greater good.
Thank you for the lesson, Robert.
If you believe we all have little grasp of finance, economics and just poorly educated people... Why don't you come down and join a assembly and explain finance and economics to us. This is your chance to have a say.
I really would like to, but I have to WORK to support my family.
So do the rest of us. The difference is we aren't so arrogant and self-righteous about it pal. Take your right wing anger elsewhere, maybe a tea party rally.
Do you people really need the name calling "card" to make your point?
Do you know how silly you sound?
Kiss my ass! How does that sound dipshit?
You've just proven my point...again.
Thank you. You immediately think "tea party" when you disagree?
Me to ... Hopefully there will be a occupation your way so you can join at lunch or after work ... that is kinda how it is starting to work on wall street and K st ...
You seem so busy, you know, trolling occupywallst.org during business hours. Your work must be quite important. So, what do you and your Soviet wife do?
We work for big corporations. In our free time we bust unions and steal from the poor.
So much for you just being a straight talker looking for an honest and open discussion! Such dishonesty!
I nominate you worst troll of the day. You, not your Soviet wife, because imaginary girlfriends are ineligible for nomination.
Thank you, I accept your nomination. I will always treasure it.
I forgot, we also kill small animals and are mean to people.
We continue to bust unions
I've been posting on this site for 5 weeks. Read my stuff and you might learn something.
Most of the "Radicals" are participating in the protest instead of trying to hijack it over the internet, like you Ron Paul fans. Also, you seem to have Marxism and Stalinism mixed up, so I wouldn't be running about calling others ignorant and uneducated, if I were you.
Ron Paul fans are invited to participate they are part of the 99%.... United we stand Divided we fall
Didn't say they weren't invited to participate. It just seems to me that the only people looking to ram a "list of demands" down everyone's throat are the Paulites who seem bound and determined to turn OWS into a Tea Party that they control.
Of course, others are just trolls like Mike. :)
I understand ... CNN is trying to turn OWS into a Tea Party also ... This is not easy ... But, Ron Paul is also in congress right now, he has been there for along time and i haven't seen him change anything. For his supporters bring his ideas that you agree with but check your party fan club at the door.
You sure make a lot of comments, but rarely have anything productive to say. Why don't you grab your capitalist-brewed coffee, your corporate-developed iphone, and head to the protest. What you call hijacking, I call open discussion.
Does my presence in your "open discussion" upset you? Here, have a tissue. You are obviously emotional about this.
Great stuff!