Why are people so afraid of black blocs?
Posted 12 years ago on May 17, 2012, 6:42 p.m. EST by jart (1186) from New York, NY
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I think that people opposed to the Black Bloc see it as counter productive. An act of frustration that isn't likely to win support. It lets you vent frustrations but costs the movement more then it's worth. Many are also strict in their belief in non-violence.
There are probably several fears. One is that simple vandalism just pushes the image of children, unable to articulate or defend their grievances, acting out. It feeds into the unemployable, spoiled, bored, child image made popular with that near-iconic picture of an occupier defecating on a police car.
Another is that unrestrained Black Bloc violence could do for the current political system something similar to what Bull Connor did for civil rights. Put an image in the mind of the majority of mindless violence and create sympathy for your opposition. For example the New York City police commissioner has experienced an unbelievable boost in his popularity. Some of that is due to the perception of how he's dealt with Occupy.
I wonder who they polled in making the determination that Kelly's popularity has blossomed? Surely they ignored at least half of the Bronx, a good chunk of Queens, uptown, the village, and most of Brooklyn :)
My main peeve with the black block, is the whole Gothic thing (seems sort of unfashionable for people over 20). Okay ... that was a joke (I like wearing black, just in moderation).
It's been several weeks since I read the articles, so I'm not sure of the source. Kelly was being looked at by the Republicans as a candidate for mayor, but he himself wasn't interested according to the article. I don't know how or where the Republicans did their polling, but it showed him as being popular enough to win.
Perhaps like most political polls they looked at likely voters and the groups you mention don't vote in sufficient numbers to be taken into account.
Jart, I clicked on the petition link to find strategies to unionize, and start job actions as you and I briefly discussed yesterday. Although I am unemployed I will be agitating at several different business that I have a connection to for unionization and disruptions. Thanks anyway I suppose you are too busy to respond to every request. I am with you. Solidarity!
That's so awesome to hear! Thanks for making the commitment to get out there and build a better world <3
I don't have any PM's to use so I had to contact you here.
Hey jart - something to consider - I hope.
Short exchange containing thought on effective/efficient communications.
[-] 1 points by shadz66 (4633) 0 minutes ago
You're welcome. Further and in order to gain very important insights into the attitudes, behaviour and machinations of 'High Finance Crapitalism' and to realise how and why we are in the mess we are in - please also try to refer to :
ipsa scientia potestas est ... ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (9205) from Coon Rapids, MN 0 minutes ago
You are a veritable warehouse of good information. It would be awesome if this stuff could be archived on this site in such a way as to make access as easy as one stop shopping. To be able to go to an index on issues and copy out links to be shared to other social media groups.
I think I will forward the idea to jart and see what she thinks.
↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink
Maybe we could just start a wiki. If I set up MediaWiki, would you guys be interested in helping to fill it with content?
I know I would - I am an old dog but I can still try and learn a new trick. Can you do an Occupy Post with the suggestion?
We really need to be able to access good information already shared and be able to stop reinventing the wheel.
What do the rest of you guys think?
An outreach and education site.
Hey?
Did you see the InfoTent we put online a couple minutes ago? http://occupywallst.org/infotent/ Our writers did an amazing job with that.
I have book marked the page. If I click on those links can I send a comment/information/article/video to those groups like we do here on this forum?
No I didn't thanks for the heads up.
http://occupywallst.org/infotent/
Is there an occupy the democratic convention?
Not that I know of; you should start one. Make the next DNC like the RNC.
The way I see it, an "Occupy Your Workplace!" spreading worldwide would be fantastic :)
Andy.
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Hard to do that when I'm in Oakland CA though.
If you have had any success at business disruption action I would be interested in hearing how you convinced workers to do that, since it is the biggest obstacle I have had in attempting to persuade them. Thanx
Are you the moderator on here?
I'm the founder of this site
Have you seen this shit yet? http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/06/13-5
We gotta protest this shit yesterday!
Everyone should spread the word to social media sites and to petition sites.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/06/13-5
Outreach and education - unity.
I copied the article link and posted it on twitter. Everyone who has social media accounts should do the same - this stuff will not be covered by the MSM.
Oh boy :/
We gotta get in the streets on this one big time!
I'll start talking to media people about this to see what they think.
Ok I thought you had some pull with the people who organize new york so I just thought I'd bring it to your attention. I'm not really in the loop out here as I'm a full time student and very busy but I'm more than ready to get in the streets about this one.
Hats off to your excellent 'heads-up' on this thread & on mine !!! You help "Globalise Resistance" !! You are part of it and "the loop" is better off for having you in it !
ipsa sceientia potestas est ....
Thanks buddy
Well of course we have pull on the ground. But many of the ideas in this movement start online, and if they pick up buzz, people start making them happen on the ground.
Ok well thanks for all your hard work
Thanks. I liked your book btw
:).....
You haven't effectively argued against my posts. You are mostly just resorting to offensive insults because of the weakness of you position. You are delusional if you think otherwise.
Ok I'm tired of you now. You my return to campaigning for obama the ultimate 1%er
geometry perception is my point of view
Your username is an honorable person, I've read Kropotkin, And you sir are no Kropotkin. You dishonor his name.
Sir in a battle of wits you are completely unarmed
You ain't wrote no books! You ain't no real anarchist. You are anti dem, pro repub. You don't fool me!
Lol you know if you weren't so ridiculous and funny I wouldn't fuck with you.
This is a secret trade agreement that isn't completed yet?
One of the reasons for this could be the reestablishment of our military presence in the pacific/asia region. Islam is becoming increasingly popular there. Scratch that, this isn't about religion.
Empire at work
Islam may have little to do with it actually but I think this agreement may be tied to military's return to the region. Empire at work no doubt.
I myself doubt it has anything to do with Islam. Its all about china. Thats why we are in Africa and that why the navy will be in the pacific in the next few years. We could be going to war with them by the end of the decade
You're right. This agreement is definitely tied to military presence though. We pulled out of Okinawa for the most part and went to Guam.
And let me tell you something China aint no pushover like Iraq or Afghnistan. There are over a billion people there and they aint going to lay down
You don't think the military is there because China is growing more powerful, building more submarines, claiming more ocean rights, making asia/pacific neighbors nervous, and being invited by those asia/pacific neighbors.? What about the fact that the world eco is shifting to the asia/pacific as China, india, indonesia continue to develop their middle classes. You don't think that has anything to do with it do you?
Mmm, that's what I said, I thought. They want to be in the neighborhood.
No. You suggested it was related to Islam. Remember?
I was speculating and I was wrong.
I think it's scenes like this that concern people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqA2nheJJaw
"Why are people so afraid of black blocs?"
The first rule of project mayhem is you do not ask questions....
I'm afraid it's not in my nature to not question things. I've been a skeptic for as long as I can remember. Even as a 9 year old child watching a magic show, I sneaked behind the stage to see what the scam was. When I was told the fable about the guy on the mountain who supposedly had a meaningful conversation with a burning bush, my immediate thought was .... do people sincerely believe this ridiculous shit? :)
Cult followers do things without question, so I wouldn't make a very good cultist.
Skepticism is a very important characteristic to possess.
there is a message right here to yours should follow http://www.hangthebankers.com/leak-it-all-anonymous-calls-for-fight-club-style-project-mayhem-2012/
I'm not sure in a fight-club-style-project-mayhem would be such a good idea. I think those kinds of actions might fall under the rather broad definition of terrorism. I'm sure there are many who would label the actions portrayed in the video that francismjenkins posted above as terrorism.
It seems like TPTB decided to cover their bases when they blew terrorism out of proportion in the last decade.
i think you are old brainwashed american dad. You always eat what the GOV feds you. We all sick. Anything close to reality geo-poetically we accept as anti-government propaganda. anyone who leaks such sort of truth are considered to be a ............journalist. take a read the role of Journalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism
R O L E
In the 1920s, as modern journalism was just taking form, writer Walter Lippmann and American philosopher John Dewey debated over the role of journalism in a democracy. Their differing philosophies still characterize a debate about the role of journalism in society and the nation-state. Lippmann understood that journalism's role at the time was to act as a mediator or translator between the public and policy making elites. The journalist became the middleman.When elites spoke, journalists listened and recorded the information, distilled it, and passed it on to the public for their consumption....
RIGHT TO PROTECT CONFIDENTIALITY OF SOURCES Main article: Protection of sources Journalists' interaction with sources sometimes involves confidentiality, an extension of freedom of the press giving journalists a legal protection to keep the identity of a confidential informant private even when demanded by police or prosecutors; withholding sources can land journalists in contempt of court, or in jail. In the United States, there is no right to protect sources in a federal court. However, federal courts will refuse to force journalists to reveal sources, unless the information the court seeks is highly relevant to the case and there's no other way to get it. State courts provide varying degrees of such protection. Journalists who refuse to testify even when ordered to can be found in contempt of court and fined or jailed.
I'm not sure what this copy/paste has to do with my post above.
The mainstream media 'journalists' are the first to cry terrorism and denounce anything that threatens the status quo the elites hold so dear. The other journalists that conduct unbiased research of the facts simply don't get enough traffic for the real story to become common knowledge.
"an old brainwashed american dad" lol...what exactly did I say that gives you that idea? Was it the use of the Bushism, 'terrorism' three times in a paragraph?
i'm BK vampire. i don't understand everything, but i can feel, i don't understand freestyle language and fast talk, but i feel the vibrations , so don't get offensive . we'd be all right
Fair enough. I like how you admit that you don't understand everything. I don't understand a whole lot either.
Too many people around here are too self-centered to be honest about such things.
click on this link and likely you've got cyberclap if you know what I'm saying. don't!
please dont =) https://www.virustotal.com/#url
because the secrete ballot has betrayed us
Honestly, while the breaking windows incident was probably not a high point in this movement, I do understand the frustration, and my feelings are mixed (I'm not willing to condemn the people who did this). I don't think it's a great strategy, but I also don't know it all (so maybe there's something of value here that I'm missing).
Nevertheless, I think I can best explain how I feel about it by analogy. If I'm with a group of soldiers fighting against a tyrannical regime, and some of my fellow soldiers want to rush out and try to pull off a frontal assault on a well defended enemy position, when the statistical chances of success are virtually zero, I will try and dissuade them from doing it. If they disagree with me and go ahead with their plan, it won't diminish my level of solidarity. I may not be willing to join them in their suicide mission, but my solidarity with them will not be diminished merely because we disagreed on tactics.
It would be another thing if a frontal assault was our only hope, we were surrounded, without an avenue of escape, and our slaughter was imminent. In that case a small chance of success is better than no chance.
I'd also say it would be good even if just for history to take some of the bastards with us, no?
No no, the black bloc is a bunch of house wives with baby carriages. Didn't you see the photo jart posted?
Anarchism is an awesome philosophy (the most utopian idea I've ever encountered, bar none, including myths about celestial theme parks and the like, I mean, even our idea of heaven reduces to an authoritarian regime), so philosophically, I am an anarchist. Moreover, the anarchists shown in the above picture are not running around breaking windows (so I see no reason to berate them), but this idea has manifested (in a few isolated cases) in ways that are, to say the least, controversial (and arguably counterproductive); and this is what I question. To my knowledge we haven't had incidents of mass vandalism in New York (associated with anarchists), but there has been some incidents on the west coast, and I don't really see what can be gained by vandalism?
I was just pointing out the propaganda posted by jart. If you read the history of black bloc, you'll see it started in Germany and was quite violent with attacks against the cops. Nothing like jart's photo.
Whether you are for or against Scott's win you have to be afraid of what is happening in politics. The money people 1% spent 7 to 1 on his campaign. The 1 % has enough money to buy any election they want. We the 99% really need to be more active and vociferous. It appears to me that the 99% are winning all over the country.
you're losing.
We're in the middle of a process which has been going on since we began recording (writing) about human events as they were happening so WE could learn from them. That's what they believed before they left the planet for new adventures. Maybe even, if we're lucky enough, we can learn from the past so we don't repeat past mistakes. Some of those mistakes were whoopers. So, OWS, is a repeat, we had a history even before we started this latest chapter. It tapped into a torrent that already existed, it just needed a time and place to appear. It came, and many have been awakened. We have their attention. It's coming from everywhere, which makes absolute sense. Many us joined this movement and have also been part of other movements in the past. And like me, some have this in their bones, and will never stop fighting for all our rights, and continue to fight against the injustices this world seems to have an abundance of.
So here's what this movement does, first, it gets it's events recorded, discussions occur in many different forums including the street, it keeps ringing the chime so we hear what it's saying, it feeds our anticipation of what's next, and as this awareness can only spread as it aligns itself with ideas that smack soundly of truth, we will eventually prevail and we can still hope for a much better world then the current one we find ourselves in.
The greatest spark which lit this fire, was INCOME INEQUALITY, and this is absolutely true. The facts bare it out and we are living it. We know, it's our experience. We see it, We realize it.
So, to be clear, Black Blocs, they are with us. We agree on basic principles, ideas that we live for, and as long as we stand on principle (known truths) we can be of any diversity. We are ALL diverse yet we ALL believe in freedom, and each of us has a special view point. As long as we get the big ones right, the details aren't so important, and we should love this diversity because after all it is FREEDOM and that's what freedom looks like when run. That said, we all realize their are bad actors out there. Some come from a center of hate and anger. OWS was never about that, and never will. We accept the Black Bloc, we will march with them, we do have common ground, it's all we need.
Now, it's time for the enlightenment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters
http://www.nycga.net/
http://www.occupy.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street
Puzzlin
In 1968, if we had a peaceful DNC convention,
we probably would not have had
"I am not a crook" dick
"I forget Iran-Contra" ronnie
"WMD" george
[ I lived thru all of them ]
Even a peaceful Black Bloc presence brings this up in my mind
Maybe I'm a coward - I've only been arrested once -
demonstrating against dick + the Vietnam war
MLK & Ghandi did it - why can't we?
Largely because of media propaganda, and misuse of terminology.
They fear the belief that each of us is responsible for himself or herself as well as the people around us . The absence of color, as in black: the black flag or black bloc signifies humans under the flag of no nation, only the banner of individual freedom.
Anarchism rests blame for what goes wrong on each of us, not on some supposed leader in some distant location. People fear that; they have no one to blame but themselves for failure and no one to succeed but themselves.
You're stretching your underwear over your head. An old grandmother is simply scared of the black bloc because she sees them pass on her street and break a bunch of stuff. She's not reading Thoreau in one hand and thinking - "My god! I'm scared of the freedom these young anarchists have!"
Problem: this is America.
We have an ignorant and uninvolved electorate which has allowed would-be Kings in the 1% and their RepubliCon foot soldiers to exploit our country, government and people, but that's what we are protesting against. That's what Occupy is about, advocating the 99% against the tyranny of the 1%. But it is a PR war, as democracy is a form of a political popularity contest. Lawlessness, absence of government, hoodlumism is not conducive to public support, or a successful populace movement.
I think Occupiers and Americans alike want the Occupy Movement to be wildly successful, don't you?
You have so many notions and concepts thrown together, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, except to first answer your question: yes.
I want Occupy to succeed, but not at the expense of true democratic principles, which essentially means people must govern themselves directly without the sham of a "representative" government. Most such governments, regardless of what they call themselves and the initial ideals of their founders, have repeatedly degenerated to little more than oligarchies.
I don't believe most sane people want or advocate lawlessness, hoodlumism, or total lack of government. Anarchism does not mean a lack of government, but an elimination of the state, or the political structure in which a government hierarchy rules from the top down. Instead, anarchism proposes governing from the smallest cell, the individual, upward. That requires education of the proletariat to assume personal and collective responsibility as well as a shared vision of a better society.
The first issue should be to educate the workers, not to fear their ignorance and react to it by repeating the same mistakes over and over. The place to start--where I certainly agree with you--is to distance ourselves from the violent few, but at the same time present an easily understandable picture of a better America without the political structures and class distinctions and that have brought us to the brink of destruction.
My gut tells me you might mean well, but you are new to this and don't really understand. There is no perfection, so there is no pure truth. It's all a choice of lesser or greater, and they can be light years apart.
The only thing we have to worry about repeating right now is 2010!
If only for the Supreme Court.
We have neglected our political system and money has taken over. Even good politicians need to play the money game if they want any chance to succeed at all. More imperfection. But the idea that both parties are the same is a RepubliCon-MSM-1% tactic to suppress the vote like they did in 2010, which got us all those crazy Tea Baggers and Koch Bros pols like Scott Walker!!
Don't be fooled again!!
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Register and Vote! Register and Vote! "We the 1%" NOT What They Wrote!!
Get out the VOTE!!
Voting helps some of the symptomatic problems to find relief, but it doesn't really solve any of the problems that we face (except putting a stopper on the ones that rear the ugliest head).
I will vote, and a voting and well educated electorate helps, but the more educated populous helps even more than the voting does, and giving people the tools that they need to take life into their own hands helps most of all. Government can provide some of those tools, but we are going to have to provide the rest of them ourselves.
When the great change is done, we will look back and laugh at the stupid way that we were trying to do things. But seriously, stop looking for the answers in your government, they aren't there.
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The corporate-controlled Republican Party exists to make the corporate-controlled Democratic Party look like a viable alternative to wannabe revolutionaries who don't really wannabe revolutionaries.
Right on target!
This is why friends don't let friends drink their own bath water. Quit it man. Seek outside sources of precious bodily fluids. Do it.
“Don't waste any more time or energy on the presidential election than it takes to get to your polling station and pull a lever for a third-party candidate-—just enough to register your obstruction and defiance—and then get back out onto the street. That is where the question of real power is being decided.”--Chris Hedges, May 2012
Bet you buy a whole lot of the good Top Ramen and those cool Hot Pockets with those Con checks.
Your stuff is pretty lame so they couldn't pay you much. How much do lame-ass trolls get?
Get somebody who can read big words to explain my posts to you, moron.
Believe in an America you can't hope to change. Vote Obomney for President in 2012!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luWgyVpDEa8
How much do lame-ass trolls get? Come on!
Anarchy: A Definition
What is anarchism?
Anarchism is the movement for social justice through freedom. It is concrete, democratic and egalitarian. It has existed and developed since the seventeenth century, with a philosophy and a defined outlook that have evolved and grown with time and circumstance. Anarchism began as what it remains today: a direct challenge by the underprivileged to their oppression and exploitation. It opposes both the insidious growth of state power and the pernicious ethos of possessive individualism, which, together or separately, ultimately serve only the interests of the few at the expense of the rest.
Anarchism promotes mutual aid, harmony and human solidarity, to achieve a free, classless society - a cooperative commonwealth. Anarchism is both a theory and practice of life. Philosophically, it aims for perfect accord between the individual, society and nature. In an anarchist society, mutually respectful sovereign individuals would be organised in non-coercive relationships within naturally defined communities in which the means of production and distribution are held in common.
Anarchists, are not simply dreamers obsessed with abstract principles. We know that events are ruled by chance, and that people’s actions depend much on long-held habits and on psychological and emotional factors that are often anti-social and usually unpredictable. We are well aware that a perfect society cannot be won tomorrow. Indeed, the struggle could last forever! However, it is the vision that provides the spur to struggle against things as they are, and for things that might be.
Whatever the immediate prospects of achieving a free society, and however remote the ideal, if we value our common humanity then we must never cease to strive to realise our vision. If we settle for anything less, then we are little more than beasts of burden at the service of the privileged few, without much to gain from life other than a lighter load, better feed and a cosier berth.
Ultimately, only struggle determines outcome, and progress towards a more meaningful community must begin with the will to resist every form of injustice.
In general terms, this means challenging all exploitation and defying the legitimacy of all coercive authority. If anarchists have one article of unshakeable faith then it is that, once the habit of deferring to politicians or ideologues is lost, and that of resistance to domination and exploitation acquired, then ordinary people have a capacity to organise every aspect of their lives in their own interests, anywhere and at any time, both freely and fairly.
Anarchism encompasses such a broad view of the world that it cannot easily be distilled into a formal definition. Michael Bakunin, the man whose writings and example over a century ago did most to transform anarchism from an abstract critique of political power into a theory of practical social action, defined its fundamental tenet thus: In a word, we reject all privileged, licensed, official, and legal legislation and authority, even though it arise from universal suffrage, convinced that it could only turn to the benefit of a dominant and exploiting minority, and against the interests of the vast enslaved majority.
Anarchists do not stand aside from popular struggle, nor do they attempt to dominate it. They seek to contribute to it practically whatever they can, and also to assist within it the highest possible levels both of individual self-development and of group solidarity. It is possible to recognise anarchist ideas concerning voluntary relationships, egalitarian participation in decision-making processes, mutual aid and a related critique of all forms of domination in philosophical, social and revolutionary movements in all times and places.
Elsewhere, the less formal practices and struggles of the more indomitable among the propertyless and disadvantaged victims of the authority system have found articulation in the writings of those who on brief acquaintance would appear to be mere millenarian dreamers. Far from being abstract speculations conjured out of thin air, such works have, like all social theories, been derived from sensitive observation. They reflect the fundamental and uncontainable conviction nourished by a conscious minority throughout history that social power held over people is a usurpation of natural rights: power originates in the people, and they alone have, together, the right to wield it.
Good definition. How'd your karma get so high btw? I wonder what that number means
This is even worse:
The song is about a guy who finds Jenny's name and number scribbled on a bathroom wall.
For a good time call? Bathroom wall?
Nice guys really nice.
Jolly f'n Jokers.
Hey isn't that a commercial phone number? Now I am an education advertisement? That is just sick.
It's Jenny's number :D But don't worry, it'll go back automatically tonight.
Not a problem - I am loved.
I am kinda cheap - too.
I love that definition.
Funny you should mention that. Jolly Jokers. Tell em they forgot the minus sign.
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"Why" ? In a word : PROPAGANDA !!!
The close ties between Mass Non-Violent Action and Anarchism are little known or appreciated and it is news & information that 'Consensus (Pseudo)Reality' Purveying State Education and Corporate MSM will NEVER give to The 99% !!
Some links :
http://wagingnonviolence.org/
http://www.gandhiserve.org/e/
http://www.gandhifoundation.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
http://www.mettacenter.org/events/anarchism-and-nonviolence-exploring-common-ground .
Resistance Is Fertile !
pax, amor et lux ...
st.org never saw a piece of propaganda it didn't like
I think it's the scary, goth baby carriages.
One of youngsters pass out from fright? Left side of picture.
If this is a Black bloc group - then no worries.
If you cared about Occupy, you wouldn't just brush off the problems created by the black bloc with a joke. You would think for a moment and understand that people are not scared of the black bloc like jart suggests, but that they are fed up with this group breaking windows and giving a bad name for OWS. And now, we have OWS Disobedience School do learn how to break even more windows. It's sad that you don't see a problem with this. If OWS dies, it's because of protesters like you and your nonchalance who let the anarchists (the minority group in OWS) get away with whatever they want.
I've seen more damage done after a football game.
Put it in perspective.
Do I endorse it?
No I don't, but like politics on this site. It's gonna happen.
The reason no one gives a shit about what you're saying is because you take things out of perspective. Whatever transgressions ows has committed pales in comparison with the devastation caused by Wall Street moguls and the financial bomb they set off. So if you want to protest something ---- start there.
True. But Trashy-Scum-Bot is not a protester JC ; he is a faux-radical ; pseudo-progressive ; pro-status quo ; neo-feudalist ; de facto arch-conservative & right-wing reactionary OR worse still a Divisive-Disinfo-Drone wholly paid for by his Dark Corporate Overlords. You're a good bloke JC - but as many have found here over the past few months, mere reason will not work with this mendacious, malignant manipulator !!
You can't discuss a new abode when you find a cockroach in your home - you have to squash it and / or try track the obnoxious little critter, right back to the source, in order try to see how it came to be there !
ad iudicium !
According to modern mythology, cockroaches will outlast us all. Probably some truth to this myth, as evidenced by this particular roach's aptitude to keep rising from the ashes to assume yet another roach name. Maybe it is a new breed, the phoenix roach.
That's why I chose the analogy, LOL ! But you do know that it he'll love your comment, right ?!! He's off to the room below the stairs for his 'special happy time' right now !!! Which may also account for his extreme short-sightedness too ...
verum ex absurdo ...
OMG! so gross..I really did not need that mental picture of the noodle head's 'special happy time'....
'Sowwy' ! ~{:-( and maybe imagine The Noodle over cooked and squishy flat on the sole of your shoe - if that helps any !! + Re below, doubly 'sowwy' ... but I ain't bumping this thread no more, in case of even more collateral casualties !!!
pax, amor et lux ...
Nope...not helping. I think you may have scarred me for life. :0
Thrashy is just another lame, name dropping, conspiracy theory.
That's all he ever was.
I don't think it's either or. We can protest Wall Street and better OWS at the same time. Why should we be weary of auto-criticism, it's the most important thing when you want to be the best you can be.
LOL !!! WTF is "auto-criticism" when you have Nothing to do with We ; Us ; OWS or The Movement at large !! You're a Shill and ought to just stick to 'auto-eroticism' perhaps and keep to the "sin of Onan" !
wanker ...
I spend my days protesting in the street for OWS my friend. And you? You're an armchair slackivist copy pasting Larouche nonsense on this site.
Again WTF is Larouche ?!!! A fellow, freakazoid fukwit and another Troll from Montreal ?!! Does it rhyme with 'louche & douche' by accident or design ?! + I didn't know there was an 'Occupy Bali' but good luck!
encore : wanker ...
Seems like now you have Tr@shy for your very own wounded, attention-seeking puppy. Just don't feed him and maybe he'll go away.
My own "Attention seeking puppy" ?! Hell's bells, I hope not !! I'd've had him put down &/or played 'go fetch the stick' on a busy highway with him by now If That were the case !!!
We've all been saying 'don't feed the dog' for ages on this forum & normally I agree - but TrashyScumBot insinuated himself into a conversation between 'TrevorMnemonic' & I, on a 'War on Iran' related thread and I had a switch flick somewhere in my head, such that I'm planning on having 'my peeps' on three continents look for his skinny ass. You can consider me motivated - to say the least !!
Further, as hard as one may try to ignore the little turd - he doesn't easily flush away but floats off to pop up again, stinking somewhere else. For example, he is on this thread under three different monikers and his latest twist may be to attach a false legend (eg "Chicago, Illinois"). I could (if I absolutely had to) list ~40 monikers that he has used on this forum but the things he can not do are a) stop there being an indication as to when he joined the forum & b) stop being his rancid, reactionary self, lol. There are other tells - but I shall keep my own counsel on those. IF he had avoided me - I would not have given him the kicking I have these last 24 hours & if he has any sense he'll let me calm down so I can go back to my posting and commenting - but things are now personal ... so we'll see !!
He'll come crawling along begging for attention but unlike his poor, long-suffering and somewhat deluded sidekick, 'April' who purrs and can annoy, TrashyScumBot is like a annoying yappy, snappy 'Yorkshire Terrier' - and try to ignore him as one might - an occasional kick is nigh on inevitable. I would never of course treat a real dog like this - because no real dog would ever behave as badly as TrashyScumBot - whose first loyalty is to himself and then to his Corporate Paymaster &/or The Feds. Good to see you back, btw but "don't feed him and maybe he'll go away." won't cut it any more I say !!!
ad iudicium ...
I'm sorry, when I said don't feed him and he'll go away I was being facetious, or perhaps ironic. He's harder to shake off than a horny bull mastif, and he smells a lot worse. He kind of putrified all my threads and poisoned my good intentions until I couldn't stand the reek of him anymore.
Here's wishing you luck shaking your newfound Klingon.
Chill bro' & it's he who should be worried about me, NOT the other way around ! He did to you as he would do to us all individually IF we let him - divide and rule !! SOLIDARITY ... et nil desperandum !!!
I did absolutely nothing to GypsyKing. Renneye said I was able to modify and delete user comments, and all you conspiracy theorists believed her. It's actually pretty funny, since I keep telling you guys to use the scientific method, but you keep believing everything you read without any critical thought at all. And now you guys are threatening me and others you think are me. There's something perverted about that which highlights the dangers of conspiracy theory type thinking.
Anyways, I'm glad GypsyKing is back, and I hope he won't leave again for a false reason.
Carperet? Qui me? Meow.
Welcome back old man! I knew your last flounce was another fake. How's the ancientmariner?
Are you going to announce that you're leaving again soon, are you going to ask us to shed some more tears for your departure?
A liitle ad hominem there, you dirty-old, black-tounged, hipocrite?
LOL
Just wait, and I will have a leetle suprize for you - but for the time being I do still find you tiresome.
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Alright, well, welcome back. I hope you stay longer this time. And, by the way, the reason you left last time was bogus. I never tampered with the comments of other users on this forum. That was a made up story by Renneye.
Liar conartist.
No, it's true. You can ask jart. I don't have the super powers you claim I have. I cannot modify a user's comments nor delete a user's comments. I'm just not that powerful. I know I know... You wish I were some kind of super force as this would render your Illuminati theory plausible, but, really, I'm not. There are no member of the "Elite" here. No one is being controlled by a computer chip. There's no lizard in sight. It's just a bunch of guys and a few girls on a forum.
You ARE a conartist. I know you can't modify a username, which is a testament to just how impotent you really are. It doesn't matter that you can't modify someone's username, because you can make it APPEAR that you are, dumbass. Its just as duplicitous...its just as destructive....and its just as demonstrative that YOU don't give a shit about anyone here or OWS !! So, FUCK OFF and let us all do our jobs!
A quote from the horse's mouth in reference to his using bots: "I can run a script that will log in a user, post a message, down vote a comment, and log out all in one go." He then claims, in other threads or as other users, to have no such abilities. What can anyone believe when he's such a proven liar?
He also seems quite fixated on lizard people (the only one on this forum that seems to be). His contention that conspiracy theories have ruined this forum has been disproved by me on another thread . For the record, less than 1% of forum threads (far less than 1%) have dealt with CT's, depending on your definition of CT's. In fact, POLITICS have ruined this forum, if the number of threads is any indication.
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GypsyKing... The Dem Op living in the Phillipines, right?
Don't you know how to use Google. Just type Larouche and then search. Do I really need to spoon feed you? The guy took part in 8 presidential elections for God's sake. Learn your US history!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche
Shock Horror !!! Trashy puts up an evidential link about something !! Shame that it is his usual 'CONspiracy' Crap ! Are you really so incorrigibly fixated on and obsessed by these matters ?
Now, back to the room below the stairs for your 'special happy time' ...
onanist ...
I help how I can. Some need to be spoon fed, others can carry on adult like discussions and can do their own research. Conspiracy theorists are usually in the former category.
Yawn ... & back to your 'little room' now and try not to go Completely Blind !! verum ex absurdo ...
Being a tyrant is not helpful.
Who told you it was?
It seems to me you are a tyrant.
I'm not the one who's ran bots.
I've never employed a sock puppet.
I discourage the use of either.
I've never attempted to exploit jart.
I don't stand in judgment of innocent posters.
I've never been banned.
You?
I did run bots to kill some of our conspiracy theorists and I'm happy to say some have indeed left the building. I haven't run bots for ages, and the only one who seems to be turned on by them nowadays is you.
I use sock puppets (many), simply because I believe people should learn to answer the arguments and not the proposer. We are all characters, the only thing that matters are the arguments, not karma points, not usernames.
I not only have I never attempted to exploit jart, I never did exploit her, and I actually helped her on many occasions specially at the beginning when we hunted some spammers down together, and when I used bots to kill the 911 Truthers that were spamming her site with their nonsensical claims.
I don't judge others, I judge their arguments. Unlike you, I don't care about a characters username or karma points.
Most users have been banned. I have the distinction that I have helped ban others as well.
IF you ever did work with 'jart' in the early days of OWS, then we can rest assured that it was most probably in the capacity of a covert 'Paid Infiltrator & Police Agent' !!!
ad iudicium ...
You do all of that because you are a coward.
There is no other valid reason, nor reasoning to explain away such childish behavior.
YOU damaged this forum and by doing so damaged OWS.
It's really that simple.
You are a tyrant, and you enjoy being one.
Your sock puppets still play judge and jury.
Please stop name dropping. You are embarrassing yourself.
You still don't possess the chops to even know what a conspiracy theory is.
Because it's like I told you already. It's all a conspiracy theory.
8 months ago as today, to eradicate them you would have to delete every single thread.
All a bot does is act as judge and executioner.
Cowardly, and unnecessary if you have the chops of reason.
So please, give it a rest.
If you won't apologize for the damage you have done, at least show some dignity.
You don't better your friends by punching them in the gut and then throwing an uppercut into their jaw.
You have long since made you're point and still nobody gives a shit because you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is that what being against vandalism would be in relation to those who are vandals. It's saddening that you are so non-chalant about this issue. PR is one of the most important aspects of any protest.
Thing is, it would be very easy for OWS to detach itself from vandalism. We would simply need to pass a resolution to that affect.
People have become absolutely blazé with OWS, and that's why I think this will be it's last summer. I mean, you have a video of basically a mob destroying stuff in the city under the umbrella of anarcho-communism (OWS - black and red flag) and nobody cares. Sad.
The tall guy did stand up to stop the short person from damaging less-expensive cars, referring to not knowing whom those cars belong to and BMWs/non-BMWs. Watch the video again. Your statement about "nobody cares" is factually wrong.
Watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqA2nheJJaw at 08:20 or so. The tall guy tried to stop the vandalism starting at 07:20 or so.
While indiscriminate vandalism is regrettable, well-targeted acts have always been an acceptable practice for all states. Yes, even "God" had issues providing a truly well-targeted strike (read the story about Sodom in the Bible).
It's true, some people care.
We have to disagree on the use of vandalism, and I don't think using the Bible to explain it is useful at all. I respect your opinion that breaking the windows of banks and doing other acts of vandalism is useful, many anarchists in OWS feel this way so you are certainly not alone. I just don't share that opinion. I think it would serve a purpose if our goal was to start some riots to eventually create a civil war, but in the context of non-violent protests simply aimed at voicing our distaste of the government, I feel it doesn't do good at all, I actually think it does bad. Thing is, we can use words, signs, chants, and speeches like adults, we don't need to break windows like teenagers. Doing the former also looks more serious. I honestly believe OWS should take a formal stance against all forms of vandalism, even Bible like vandalism.
I do NOT think that OWS was "using" vandalism. It seemed to have been a case of youthful transgression and symptomatic of the gathered anger and frustrations that breached through. There might have been the group dynamics that turned otherwise well-adjusted individuals into vandals. Human beings ARE social animals so even countries (such as Germany and Japan) formerly held in high regards as civilized and valued honors could perpetrate unspeakable inhumane acts as GROUPS. Cohesion of a people could actually make it more prone to mass descent into barbarism. On the other hand, a culture tolerating some dissension could thwart that. That tall guy was BRAVE in standing up to the window breakers who did seem to BE teenagers. Properly restrained and channeled anger can be a powerful force for change, hopefully for the better. "Don't shoot until you can see the white of their eyes." -- American Revolutionary War Colonel William Prescott.
God again and again backed down from the total destruction of Sodom due to Lot's pleading not to destroy it for the sake of sparing any good people in it but eventually not even one good person was found in it to spare Sodom so it was totally destroyed and never to be rebuilt. Lot's wife did not heed the warning not to look back at the destruction and was turned into a pillar of salt. See, God had a difficult time just culling the evil people while sparing the innocent ones. Even those who had been spared could still unintentionally be destroyed if they did not heed the warnings. God could NOT prevent collateral damage and total destruction was an acceptable means. "War is the continuation of Politik by other means" -- Carl von Clausewitz. Let the wise ones heed the Biblical lessons.
I guess you really are just slow. But the point is when Wall Street fucks up shit I don't hear a damn peep about it from you, but when a fucking window - a measly fucking window gets broke - nobody can get you to shut the fuck up about it.
I certainly don't hear you ranting about an entirely overreaching authority and how many arrests of protesters now? thousands......you think all of those were really warranted.
Get real.
Of course many of them were not warranted. That's why so many OWS protesters got acquitted in court.
The only reason I'm talking about OWS inside problems is because nobody else is. Everyone else is already talking about the problems of the state. It's healthy to at least have one guy (me) talk about the problems within Occupy.
Auto-criticism is very important. Don't spit on that.
One shouldn't have to talk about government problems before having the right to point to OWS problems. If there's a problem, let's point it out! Black bloc is a problem of OWS PR and image. Let's point it out!
P.S. Your above argument is based on a logical fallacy: Two wrongs don't make a right. It's not because Wall Street does some bad shit, that OWS does not do bad stuff too. Both can be addressed.
My argument is based on reality. For every action there is a reaction. Without wall street devastation, we would have no angry people out in the streets busting windows. In fact, we wouldn't even be having this damn conversation. When the criminals are in control of society, breaking a few windows is just par for the course. You want people to quit getting angry enough to commit vandalism, then focus your mojo on the mainstream media for giving the criminals in charge a pass.
Now run along and find some Fox and CNN pundits to auto-criticize for awhile about their lousy coverage of Occupy Wall Street.
If window breaking is to represent our dissatisfaction with the government, then I think we need to break a lot more windows. Perhaps we should do the opposite of what I suggested, perhaps there should be an official call to break windows at OWS protests. This would show our discontent even more. What do you think?
Perhaps I was wrong in thinking that protesting non-violently in the street by holding signs, chanting, and marching together is enough to show our discontent. You might be right. Perhaps we must break windows to express ourselves.
I'll have to rethink my position.
I think you're an ass. No one has called or will call for any vandalism, it is the unfortunate by-product of a highly volatile environment.
I misunderstood your stance. I thought you meant that the best expression of the problems with the government were acts of vandalism.
If we are both against these acts and both believe that they can tarnish the reputation of OWS, why not ask OWS to be officially against this tactic? It might be inevitable as you say, but if OWS officially distances itself from those acts, then it can win a few points in the PR department. Don't you think?
Who is it that said that one who does nothing in the face of injustice is complicit with said injustice? MLK?
Sure, in a perfect world, we could say, hey dudes, don't get so pissed off about the rigged system that is punishing you so others can profit and skip going to jail and get giant bonuses to boot. C'mon guys, can't we just all get along and play nice?
In reality, you are just being grossly naive about the high amount of suffering and hardship occurring in people's lives right now to make such a lame call to be model citizens. The whole 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument is nothing but bullshit in the face of this real suffering of being kicked out of your homes, not being able to find jobs, not being able to make ends meet, asking for handouts to feed your children, etc. __ It's like telling a starving person not to steal food. I'm just telling you straight --- People are going to say fuck you and the horse you rode in on all day long with this line of reasoning. It's more of the same old tired blame the victims and give the criminals a pass absolute horseshit that people like myself can't tolerate.
What's next after the call to not vandalize? For every protester to put on a suit and tie and get a haircut to conform to a public relations standard. Good luck with that.
I think the opposite needs to happen. Ows is fine. It is you and the public that needs to open their itty-bitty minds to what is going on and see the world around them with a whole lot more perspective. Who are the real victims and who are the real criminals? Everyone in this country is perfectly capable of judging OWS by their own criteria, but it does not help one bit that the media goes out of its way to mislead the public mind.
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We'll only know if we try. But yeah, we can just do nothing too.
No, we can try and keep it in perspective. If you will remember, I am saying your criticism is unjust, not unfounded. It does not reflect the true nature of the struggle we find ourselves in. You claim to love OWS but give so little credence to the forces that is up against that I find myself skeptical of that claim. You seem to not understand, or just don't give a shit, who the oppressors are and who is getting oppressed.
It will probably be too late by then. The latest polls have shown that support of OWS is unfortunately dwindling, and the reason is this minor vandalism problem. Unfortunate really. See, most Americans don't understand anarchy, they think it's all about violence. So, when they hear about OWS this anarchy protest and then hear about marches where people break stuff, well, they choose not to support us because that scares them.
We wish everyone understood right from the get go. But, if we want to grow bigger and really have a chance to tackle the big issues that are up your ass, then, unfortunately, we will have to explain what anarchy really is to most people and we'll have to show that it's not about breaking stuff by being officially against this.
Let's say for a second, we could actually appeal to the better judgment of very hurt and angry people and get them to cease all vandalism. Would this make us the new poster boy for the mainstream media and all of a sudden everybody will love us, or will the elites invent stories and play them out in the mainstream media to reinforce a negative image of OWS anyway. I wish it were that simple. I wish we could make things perfect just by saying it should be so....if that were the case, I could just appeal to the elites to act right and quit fucking up the lives of so many people....
Your mistake is thinking that I'm trying to de-legitimize OWS. I'm not, I'm trying to make it as best as possible. It's more like I am a used car dealer fixing all the scratches and sprucing up the inside of a car before a big car show. I love the car enough to really care about making it the best that it can be. And, in this case, it would be easy to collectively take a stance against vandalism. This would help our PR a lot! We bothered saying OWS should be non-violent, we should also bother saying that vandalism is considered violence and will not be tolerated.
Again, it's not either or. We can point out and try to fix the problems of the government and the problems of OWS.
It seems to me you don't care too much how OWS is perceived, which really means you don't care too much about OWS.
Fine. Right after I am done pointing out my super long list of gigantic gripes against a greedy screw you in your asshole 'til it hurts Wall Street, I'll be sure to get right on that minor vandalism problem you've dropped in the suggestion box.
I guess you're right and we shouldn't even try to make OWS less prone to vandalism. When our adversaries accuse us of being vandals, we'll have to admit we did nothing to stop it. Well, I tried to bring up the subject, and you said it was useless.
As you know, anarchy has a bad rep in US. For this to happen, for the US citizens to wake up and listen to OWS, OWS protesters will have to stop vandalizing and start explaining the problems instead. Using voice instead of a throwing arm goes a longer way.
You're like a used car dealer pointing to a few scratches on the door in order to de-legitimize the value of the entire car for bargaining power. I get the approach. Would the value of OWS be better off without vandalism. Sure. But the dings are there and they are minor in comparison to the big picture. That is my point. For every scratch on the OWS car you point out, I will point out the total damage caused by Wall Street on the lives of people. Whose car should people buy? I know which I prefer.
there's just so much media that big media got swamped
Tears For Fears - Mad World - ClubMusic80s
cough another anti prop 29 ad against a dollar cigarette tax
Because they swallow whole everything the corporate media tells them...
The Bloc Block in L.A. saved the Mayday march. http://www.laactivist.com/2012/05/04/la%E2%80%99s-black-bloc-kept-may-day-march-moving/comment-page-1/#comment-3086
That isn't anything new, it has to be dealt with. Turning to violence in one or two cities validates police action to "protect" everywhere, in the mind of the majority.
The only violence that will work in Occupies favor is violence committed against it. It didn't happen right away for civil rights or the anti-war movement, but eventually the authorities overreacted and it got covered.
Thanks for sharing that. I've always assumed black bloc was about property damage, I need to expand my box a little bit more it seems.
Dems are pushing hard for the young vote since many older voters have given up on them.
People forget the Guy Fawkes masks everywhere at the start of this thing.
We are trained to fear exposure of our vote due to Secret ballots rationalization
Any large movement has a continuum of different levels of anger and frustration. Black bloc is just one aspect of the Occupy-Wall-Street movement. Although some of us can probably look at the young faces acting out in frustration and see ourselves in our younger days, we did learn that violence was not the answer. What we really want is the redress of grievances. The goal is clear but the means is still being burnished and we will eventually find out what it will be. Let me make it clear -- the order of the creation of our system was the people, the cities and towns, the states, and finally the federal government. Which one of these will endure and which ones can we do without? In our search for answers, we must stay open-minded and evaluate any option carefully.
Black-bloc is opportunistic and stupid. Getting together a bunch of frustrated young people to destroy their own neighborhoods and terrorize their neighbors does nothing.
That description does seem most fitting for our power elites (the investment bankers) and politicians except that they line their pockets with tons of money. It is also fitting for the U.S.'s military/politicians'/industrial complex in their incursions, foreign and domestic. See, we have people whom we call leaders that have set great examples for our young people to follow. The young ones may take some time to learn the skills of lining their pockets, though.
Applying the description to investment bankers gives the very apt statement: [Investment bankers] are opportunistic and stupid. Getting together a bunch of frustrated [investment bankers] to destroy their own neighborhoods and terrorize their neighbors does [line their pockets with tons of money].
I am not disagreeing that the description can be given to "investment" bankers aka. speculative crooks and the military/political cabal, but I don't know what you are implying. Black-blocers can be wrong while these people mentioned before are wrong too.
It is unfortunate that the destruction of properties happened. I fully agree that it should not have but given group dynamics and pent-up anger it does happen sometimes. Property rights formed the foundation of civilized societies millenia ago and some of us had since then foolishly tried taking them away and caused major social problems. I do not really want us to retread those dead-end paths but historically social changes even the ones highly desirable for the society as a whole come at a cost that sets off powerful minorities. Up to now, taxes had been a primary means of amortizing costs accrued from pursuing common goods. I figure that if the U.S. continued to go down the current path, we would in a few years become the showcased product of PIGS R US (take a look at the map of the continental U.S. -- aren't we geometrically there already?).
I think you are changing the topic to avoid discussing the failures of black-bloc tactics.
Okay, I shall employ the classic establishment approach to this problem: I hereby declare that OWS's black blocs shall be SUSPENDED IMMEDIATELY without any pay and be put on an INDEFINITE administrative leave pending the results of ongoing investigations into the alleged misconducts. Upon the successful completion of said investigations, OWS's black blocs shall receive punishments or be restored to the force as JUSTICE demands.
Your sarcasm doesn't prove anything. Just denounce black-bloc and make sure people you know don't participate in the stupidity of it.
Pro-bono investigations are ongoing. The official investigations shall commence upon the appointment of an investigative team and the allocation of funds by the OWS general assembly. Denunciation without completing proper investigations is contrary to the fundamental American judicial principles of fair play and due process.
Great! Are you going to head the investigations?
From occupywallst.org front page: "Occupy Wall Street is a leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants."
"Leaderless" means ANYONE can take the lead -- you can lead the pro bono investigation, too. The statement regarding violence is already there -- "encourage the use of nonviolence" -- so black blocs' tactics are either not encouraged or already DISCOURAGED if we agree that what happened on a San Francisco street constituted "violence." What I saw from the video seemed to be mostly property crimes. I am sure that the San Francisco police are already working on those cases. If it helps at all, I, representing myself only, apologize to all property owners who have been adversely affected by the behaviors depicted in the video of the San Francisco march.
There is no "leader", only papers with articles that tell you how to behave.
I agree, the negative adjectives can be both applied to corrupted bankers and anarchists using vandalism as a tactic.
I don't think anybody is scared of the blac bloc its just that destruction of private property looks bad. I dont mean busting windows at banks or even fighting with the cops in self defense but I have seen and heard about instances when a mom and pops small buisness has had their front window busted. My friend lives on Valencia st in SF and the night before the May Day protests his car windows got busted out by the blac bloc. He isnt part of the 1% and was a little sympathatic to occupy but after that it turned him the other way. Destroying the private property of others in the 99% does nothing but alienate people that might be sympathetic to Occupy.
And destroying the property of the 1% does nothing at all. It's just a waste of time.
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The problem is that OWS is divided into two camps:
The black bloc is great for a revolution since it goes against the authorities. It creates tensions. It turns the protest into US vs THEM (the police and all other authorities).
The problem is that the vast majority of protesters see this as a red herring. They don't want to talk about US vs police ad nauseam. They want to talk about solving issues. That's why those protesters want to make demands and are starting to talk about voting. They don't want a revolution, just a reform. For them, the black bloc just means the tarnishing of the reputation of OWS. Not good.
Well said GailSummers. But I would argue that reforms like getting outside money out of politics and ending the bribery in our political system and other things just as important ARE revolutionary. But for the most part I agree with everything you so eloquently laid out.
I think the Anarchists that started this movement are whats holding it back. Their goals are unrealistic and like you said there end goals aren't the same with the vast majority of the protesters. The vast majority want transformative reforms of our political system and our society. Anarchists want government to collapse and be built with the image of society they want.
Most of the protesters either don't know this or know it and disagree. I think a turning point for the movement is coming. A possible splinter off of Occupy. And ironically the black bloc types that began the movement will clearly be shown as the 1% of the 99%.
I wish it didn't have to come to that because I think when that splinter happens its going to weaken the movement for a bit but it will quickly come back stronger and more focused and with a better ability to pull in people into the movement for the long term.
When a deep draft ship goes aground out of the channel, it needs a powerful shallow draft tug boat to go further out of the channel, and push or pull the ship back off the rocks into deeper water. Anarchism is our 'tug' at least for now anyway. And knowing that 'tug' is there standing-by might prove to be a bargaining chip for the sea change we need in the way our political and financial institutions are run. That radical element was there during the passage of the New Deal, and it is there now during our efforts to crush neoliberalism. We should wait before we decide to send 'Anarchism' off.
Here the story is on Democracy Now
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/6/14/breaking_08_pledge_leaked_trade_doc
Thanks again Peter. The masses should be out in the streets for this alone. I played this on my LT which I have set up in the garage while visiting AK. Just as it finsihed playing one of my daughters, and son-in-law came out after putting the baby to sleep, and i replayed it for them. Despite both of them being intelligent, and probably because they are both so involved in raising a family they did not understand why I was so involved with the struggle we are in. After viewing this, and listening to my comments, i asked them to please understand that if I get arrested for peaceful civil disobedience....well I am just following my convictions. I simply want to make this a better world for them, and all of my family. That's all.
I'm afraid of getting arrested this summer as well or worse but I will in the name of stopping this.Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
check it out http://rdwolff.com/content/america-no-longer-land-opportunity-rt-tv-interview
Yes I don't look forward to getting arrested either, but I feel it is inevitable, and it is my duty at this pont in our sad history. That was a good link, but it just reinforced what i already knew.
I don't remember if I told this to you, or someone else here, but i will tell it again. I was at a teach-in in Bryant Park in NYC recently, and it was given by a Drew University economics prof. At the end of her lecture which was really good, I asked her: 'Considering the fact that our economy relied so heavily on the unrealistic housing bubble for so long...and all while we were out-sourcing some of our best jobs over-seas....what will these uni grads be doing? She brought out a sheet of paper which projected the most needed jobs for the next either ten or twenty years. Only one job on her list required a college education, an RN. That is an enormous problem on so many different levels.
If you like that link you should check this out too when you get some time.
http://rdwolff.com/content/global-capitalism-june-2012-monthly-update
OK I watched this and it was very enlightening about the co-op Mondragon. It was very interesting how Rooosevelt played the radical elements...the socialists, and communists..to get the sea change that he wanted. Coincidentally Endgame and I have been having this same discussion the last few days concerning our radical element, the anarchists. His view is basically that we should dump them, and my views are almost parallel to a tee of what Roosevelt did, and what I assume Mr. Wolf advocates. Have you seen our exchanges? I will try to dig them up for you.
Yeah I noticed them. I'm sure you know where I fall on the subject
That's right I forgot that we were arguing these points on another thread simultaneously, hence my confusion. On that thread I ended it with if anyone wanted to subvert this movement, the two things that would do it the quickest is to turn this into a political struggle, and the second would be to create divisions between the leaders of this leaderless movement, and their followers.
I agree with you which is why I get so aggravated with the democrats on here. I feel like half of the time it doesnt matter to them whether things get better or not just as long as the democrats stay in the majority
The promotion of democrats on here did not bother me so much for a long time, but it bugs the shit out of me now, as I realize how harmful it s to this struggle.
See my post below
I find myself some times being a Democratic apologist, not because I believe them to be good for our nation. In fact, I believe neither part has my best interests at heart. The Republicans defend the rich while the Democrats defend the professional middle class.
Neither side defends low wage workers except to ensure they are fed and housed just enough so they don't turn to criminal activity, or make sure there is enough prisons to house the desperate. The reason I defend Democrats is because they are the biggest impediment to right wing domination. It is a good thing, so I believe, that neither party gets every thing they want, and right now it seems that the democrats have lost their nerve to fight. If i thought for a moment that there were enough people willing to vote in a third party, i'd be on their band wagon lickity split.
Do you believe that if you were to add up all the people who have come to this site and are thirsty for something new that they would be willing to vote en mass for a third party candidate? I'm not too sure, and because of that I believe it is a better strategy to compel the left to more ferociously fight the right. And if for a second I thought the left was too powerful, i'd change my strategy. The Founders believed in checking power with power, and because the working class have no power, it seems much wiser to play the two power structures off each other.
But i will admit that after all the concessions that Obama has given to the wealthy, maybe both parties are playing good cop, bad cop at all of our expenses. I have heard it said that a divided gov't is the best solution for all social classes. Maybe there is truth to such a statement. maybe we need to split both houses fifty/fifty and let them nullify each other with the filibuster.
I disagree with your analysis. I think that the professional middle class is who the democrats try to win in elections along with blacks and other minorities but I do not beleive that is who they are trying to serve. They certainly aren't trying to serve minorities and people of lower economic status. I know that many profesional middle class types identify with democrats and certainly most blacks do beacause the democrats absorbed elements of the civil rights movement from the 60's
I don't associate the democrats with the left. democrats serve capitalist interests just like the republicans do. Often they just serve different corporate elites. How can you serve corporate elites and working people at the same time? It can't be done those two interests are diametricly opposed. So asking the democrats to more ferociously fight the republicans to me makes little sense especially when they often serve the same intrests. If obama was a white republican how many of these democrats on here would be outraged that he boosted troop levels to Afghnistan right after he won a nobel peace prize?(which to me sully's that award) They would call him a war monger and a killer for the drone attacks and they would feel so bad for the poor innocent children of Pakistan that are killed in those strikes. During bush's term there were gigantic protests here on the west coast to get us out of the war led by democratic front groups like moveon and others.What did those front groups do after the 2007 elections when the democrats took both houses? They packed up and went home like the war was over.
If his healthcare reform bill flooded corporate pockets with tax payer cash they would be outraged. If he made Arne Duncan a man who's major accomplisment was to privatize and dismantle the Chicago public school system as much as possible secretary of education they would howl. obama( I refuse to capitalize his name) does all these things and not a peep out of them.
Any significant change to the U.S. will only come through popular struggle. Just like all other change in this country. People died to get the 8hr work day. People died to get rid of segregation. The elite never gives anybody anything. You have to take it. Which is why labor lost Wisconsin. The democrats and the union bosses instructed the workers to leave the capital house there in Wisconsin and try to run the democrats against the republicans in a recall. They should have stayed there until walker sent in the goon squads to take them out. They should have stayed and fought and turned it into a popular struggle. Thats the lesson of Wisconsin. As Emma Goldman said If voting could change anything they would make it illegal.
In my mind the democrats are just as much of a problem as the republicans. In fact I think they are worse because they are smarter. They speak in the language of populism but they really serve the interests of the corporate elite. It keeps the people that identify with them from realizing that they are not really working for them. Which makes them more effective in their domination of the working class and poor.
That makes sense. It kinda reminds me of Howard Zinn's analysis in "The People's History of the United States" and even Nader's belief that “Only the Super-Rich Can Save Us!” Both books are very compelling and the former is loaded with sources to other research documents that show that gov't had always been designed to keep the majority at bay, while the rich sucked on the tit. Maybe that is why the rich are so despicable today, they feel as though they are not getting as much of the government tit as their ancestors once commanded. Yeah, you can tell our democratic Republic is a farce when populism is seen as a bad word.
Well said Peter. I think a lot of people are waking up to your analysis of the democrats.
Yes we are very like-minded. I didn't realize that those exchanges between endgame and me were right here. I must be getting old. lol
OK I will, but good night for now. I'm taking care of my 16mo. old granddaughter tomorrow, and 0600 comes early
Take care Odin
I like your analogy Odin.
But I would disagree with the waiting to send Anarchism off. They are what is holding us back now. Even though this movement is suppose to be leaderless, the Anarchists are the ones that are dictating what the movement does as a whole.
Thanks. I understand that having our roots based in anarcharism may be keeping some people from joining the Occupy movement, but I do believe that their (anarchists) kind of reclcitrance is what we need to further our stuggle. Without the anarchists, we will never get the systemic change we need. The Civil Rights movement had these kind of radicals in the Black Panthers, and like I said, so did Roosevelt during the New Deal with communists waiting in the wings. It is key though that this struggle remain overwhelmingly non-violent.
I have no problem with the roots of Occupy being based in Anarchism. I don't care how the movement was started just as long as it was started in the first place. But I do continue to have a major problem with how Occupy was initially advertised. It was a populous movement. Initially not pushed as a movement that is trying to abolish government and achieve an Anarchic society.
But with all of the ways the Anarchists are holding this movement back I don't understand the reasoning in continuing to believe they are needed. It just doesn't make sense to me.
And I think this time your analogy is a little off. The Civil Rights Movement had the Black Panthers but the end goals of both were similar. Its not like the Black Panthers were trying to live in a society where all white people had to be pushed out or something. But with this movement you have the majority that want to transform our government and our political system and you have the few Anarchists that we let run the show that want something completely different. Different goals completely.
The transformation that you seem to have in mimnd seems a bit mild to me, and that viewpoint is coming from someone who does not want to see anarchy reign in the end. But when you go into this with just a mild transformation in mind, you'll never get the sea change that we really need in the way our political, and financial institutions are run. And by that I mean at least a return to the days of Roosevelt's New Deal where governemnt was made to work for the people, not against them. We have to shoot for the stars if we are going to get anywhere meaningful in our struggle, hence the need for anarchism at this point in time. Anything less, and this will just turn into another failed liberal attempt at transforming our society into something that is a lot better than what it is now. We have the history to prove that, don't we?
I fail to see how Occupy using everything at their disposal to make change as being mild. In fact I think its much more productive and wide reaching in a positive way than the path the Anarchists are leading us in.
The fact is that our political and financial institutions are ran in the corrupt way they are ran is because of the corruption and bribery that we have allowed to be at the center of our political system and government. You pay off a politician in the form of "campaign" money, future promises, or threats and you get your way. At the core of it all its that simple. Occupy addressing this fact head on is what we should be doing.
I think we've gotten into this realm of conversation before. And just like then I just think we have completely different views on getting involved in electoral politics. If your goals are the same as the Anarchists and you dream of living in an Anarchic society with no government and at all then I can absolutely see why we would have this gap in opinion on where this movement should go. I have no desire to live in a society like that. And I am pretty sure the reason why Occupy wasn't initially advertised in this fashion is because even the Anarchists knew that wouldn't fly with the mast majority of the public at all.
If you believe that by aligning ourselves to one of the political parties, or not being out in the streets will bring about the systemic change we need, I strongly disagree. This struggle will surely die. I am well aware of the facts that got us to this point. And i have clearly stated that I did not want an anarchichal society to be our goal, so please don't mis-state me...and then go on and on about it to make your view sound more righteous than mine.
I would also remind you once again that it was radicals in both the Civil Rights and the New Deal Days, with different agendas to King and Roosevelt that helped bring about the sea change that did occur.
We've discussed this before. I never said we need to align with any one particular party. I never said that if we were to get involved in the electoral process that we should NOT be in the streets. I have always said that the protests are the most important part of this movement. What I am saying is that we need to get involved in multiple ways. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
And as i've said in another post of yours I just responded to, I don't even know where you stand anymore. One minute you defend Anarchic society goals then you say you aren't for an Anarchic society. Forgive me for being confused...
And I would remind you once again that your analogy with radicals in the Civil Rights movement does not fit here. Even the radicals in the Civil Rights movement had the same end goals as everyone else in the movement. The Anarchists along with the Black Bloc crowd have completely different goals than the majority of the members of the movement that joined due to the movement advertising itself as populous. Not a movement fighting for Anarchic society goals.
Someone at Occupy the Arts San Diego
Martin Luther King would have wanted his day to bee holiday for voting.
I agree with that.
The more this becomes a political movement in that putrid political system that we have, the less effective it will be. The civl unrest including the militant Black Panthers who had socialist, and communists ties had a lot to do with MLK's victory. The same goes for Roosevelt's New Deal with communists in the wings, and the war-like groups in India in Gandh's time. None of these groups achieved what they wanted except of course for Roosevelt, Gandhi, and MLK. They did indeed get their sea change.
I hear what you're saying about the Black Panthers but the fact still remains that their end goals where in lock step with that of everyone else involved in the Civil Rights Movement. That fact can not be glossed over. And it is the reason your analogy does not work in this situation.
And once more I guess we come to the conclusion that we just disagree with the core tactics of the movement. Nothing we can do about that.
The Black Panthers had socialist, and communist ties. That combined with the riots in our cities in the 60s combined, to force the government to concede to MLK's demands. And what about the militants during the New Deal, and in Gandhi's time.You are right though, we are just going to have to disagree on the tactics to be used in this revolution.
Even though we disagree on the tactics Occupy should take I still value your point of view Odin.
Thanks, but I wish you would understand my point of view. Read the last two columns in Truth Dig by Chris Hedges.....the first one being about Montreal, and the last one being about the Berrigan brothers. If that doesn't convince you, then i sure won't.
The anarchists wouldn't like you telling them they're just pushing on your bum while you try to climb the fence, especially since they told you to climb the fence in the first place. Seems like you are using their protest for your means. I knew a guy who used to treat girls like that.
It's hardly the same. I treat women very well. We, the anarchists, the people who want moderate reform; and those who want a sea change in the way our financial, and political institutions are run are all on the same voyage for now. At some point our interests may cause our routes to diverge, but i expect that is a ways off. For now though we all need each other, hence we are all on the same ship.
Agreed. And there is an election now. I like many, agree that things are incredibly far gone. injustice, inequity, etc. I march because I want change, and although I believe most politicians are corrupt. I believe one party can be made to work for the 99%. The other is too far gone. In regards to the black bloc, I think it is simply that some have resorted to violence and most OWS people are non violent. Any violence plays into the hands of the 1%. They want us to be violent because they know how to deal with that. It's in the manual.
Mmm, sorry, OWS is not divided into 2 camps. Anarchists are always crashing other people's parties. It's what they do. It must be nice to be a party crasher who travels the world. I'll bet the chicks think they're cool. Anarchists are like these pro-lifers who went to the Tea Party rallys.They're knuckleheads.
thrash, it's the cops who have created the tension. black blocs are a response to the cops.
No, it's really the other way around. The idea of camping long term in parcs was designed to create tension. OWS protesters knew the cops would eventually come. And, now we have the Disobedience School so we can create even more tension.
In other words, anything calculated to create tension, is defined (under this standard) as bad. Well, newsflash, protesting, by definition, creates tension. The idea that the "establishment" which we're protesting against, should have the right to dictate to us the means by which we protest, is the most absurd idea I've ever heard (it effectively renders the First Amendment meaningless).
Some of these tactics may have been calculated to provoke a response, but this is to expose the authoritarian nature of our system (people are, in general, under the deluded believe that we live in free society, and we don't).
I don't like vandalism as a tactic, but for different reasons. I just think at this point it's a bad strategy (and counterproductive to achieving anything meaningful). If I thought it could achieve something meaningful, I might feel differently. If we're going to provoke police into a violent response (not very difficult to do, since police departments are, by their nature, violent organizations), give the public a picture of good, peaceful people facing unprovoked violent attacks.
Maybe more physical occupations, definitely more disruptive protests (a/k/a Brooklyn Bridge sort of thing, student walk outs and protests within city colleges, etc.). I mean, if we take our foot off the gas, eventually the car stops moving.
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I never said it was bad. I just said OWS purposefully creates tensions between the protesters and the police. That's all I said. Personally, I think our beef should be the 1% who corrupt stuff and not the police, but that's just me. OWS is like a gangster that wanted to go rob a mansion, but then got stuck in a time warp playing with the guard dogs for eons.
On this point I disagree. The way law enforcement works in this country is reflective of our overall social structure. It is the most obvious example we can elude to when pointing out that we don't live in a truly free society, our social structure is authoritarian. However, many people still believe the hype, the myth ... that America is the land of the free. At one time maybe we could say this, but only because we had a primitive view of what liberty means.
Nah, that's BS. The freedom of one ends where the freedom of another begins. When OWS blocks a port, it infringes on the freedoms of the people who work at the port and use it for what it was intended. When they take control of a park and setup a campground it's the same thing. When a black bloc anarchist breaks the window of a merchant (even 1% merchant) he is trespassing on the freedom of another. I'm all for OWS, but it's BS to say that we don't deserve getting arrested for many things we do. We are not angels protesting in a polite manner. We use civil disobedience.
You are free to assemble and express a message within certain confines. You don't need to take over a public park 24/7 to express a message, you don't need to take over a port to do it either.
There must be freedom in order to say freedom has been infringed. Blocking ports is civil disobedience. The people who work at the ports are not free in any real sense of the world. Our society is built on authoritarian coercion. To say or imply that the only ways we may protest the status quo is in ways the status quo approves of, is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
I'm not comfortable with breaking windows or destroying cars, because we don't know whether or not the small shop being targeted is owned by someone in the 1% (chances are it's owned by someone scraping to get by like everyone else). But blocking ports is totally different. Our international trade is based on worker exploitation. Therefore, blocking ports should be viewed as self defense. It is the 99% saying we will not sit by while the 1% enslaves the third world, and stuffs them into sweat shops, while exporting our jobs and destroying our quality of life in the process.
Moreover, public spaces are a proper venue for protest, and there is no exception written into our First Amendment that prohibits sleeping in tents as a mode of speech. No one is talking about denying the public access to its parks. There's no reason why parks can't accommodate both free speech and public recreation at the same time.
You must understand, like any negotiation, you will only get part of what your asking for. If your ask for reform, you get lip service, if you ask for revolution, you get real reform. anarco-syndicalism and our current form of democratic republic are not far from each other in concept. Corruption however has taken it far from that. I thought you had a relative that specialized in Socrates and as such you would be familiar with these concepts, if not of your own high level of education.
The US is not and never was intended to be a "democratic" republic. Every democratic reform was hard fought and long time coming. I went to Vermont once. It is lovely. It has two Senators. More people live in my neighborhood than live in Vermont. We don't have a Senator of our own. It takes 60 Senators to enact any progressive legislation. that's not democracy.
They are absolutely far from each other! What are you talking about, care to expand?
I didn't say black bloc was bad in any way, I simply explained why the vast majority of protesters are against black bloc. They want to talk about reform, but the news is always about the black bloc breaking windows. I don't think breaking windows helps OWS in any way. I don't see how it helps achieve any type of revolution or reform. And, I disagree that the best road to reform is the road to revolution. That's nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
I'm still pretty sure I know who you are. I've been bait posting for a while and I've seen nothing to prove me wrong other than you denying it. If I am correct, I am utterly confused as to why you have chosen the path you have. Seems as tho you have the right idea, just a poor method. Again, if I am correct about who you are, I think you need to find a spiritual center (meditation or walk in nature), I don't care if it sounds hokey, it's good for the mind as well as the soul.
"The idea of camping long term in parcs" -- the spelling of parcs in a comment above seems to indicate the knowledge of French slipping through. There was U.S. law against domestic spying after the Watergate scandals. How can our executive branch engage in domestic spying without getting into legal trouble with the law? Set up shop nearby in Montreal - friendly neighbor occupying strategic position to monitor the U.S.'s east coast population center. Our next-door neighbor knows English well so they can fully participate in the global intelligence effort against the "terrorists" - partly because we are so deficient in OTHER languages to do any good catching the proven terrorists (when you have a hammer and the problem is NOT a nail, bang at everything loudly to show that you are doing REAL work).
"Tito Puente" is a musician so the person posting a comment below was probably knowledgeable about music.
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You're thinking like a conspiracy theorist, and not like a scientist. You're using the scientific method backwards. It's not about having an hypothesis and then saying it's true until proven wrong, but rather about using observation to prove it right. I could easily say you're Tito Puente until you prove me wrong, but what's the point of that? You have the burden of proof. If you think I'm someone you know, then you must prove it.
a photograph of child abuse.
Thank you for your fan mail.
po6059 said 3 minutes ago at May 18, 2012, 11:34 a.m. EST (delete)
all your topics are socialist agenda garbage.
po6059 said 1 month ago at March 21, 2012, 6:07 p.m. EST (delete)
what a phoney you are, no, i take that back, you're a genuine "useful idiot" , aka ows pawn.
thank you for making private mail public.
Not a problem. In fact my pleasure. Send hate mail and see what you get. You may do the same to me in return.
Ooop's - that is if I ever send you PM hate mail.
You continue to be a" useful idiot".
Zoot Suit (1981) - Home Video Trailer
Why thank you - thank you - very little.
Does someone or has someone been assigned to slap you so that you remember to breathe?
the "useful idiots" were the pawns of lenin. stalin used the phrase too. seems you don't mind being connected to a mass murderer.
Asad? I want the bastard dead so do his people.
I hate you because you're a conspiracy theorist ruining the reputation of OWS, but I made this post to help you and others if you are attacked by bots again. http://occupywallst.org/forum/demystifying-bots-a-few-ideas-to-hamper-them-and-w/
OH - And I bet Brooksley Born feels real sheepish about all of those warnings she was spouting about deregulation.
Huh.
Boy must her face be red right about now.
Sheesh - I better get a handle on it - Hey?
I don't know who Brooksley Born is.
Surprise!
I'm not American and don't have a TV. I never read American news. Apart from Obama and a few other prominent figures, I don't know many of your politicians. (BTW - I'm happy not to be American. Very happy)
You should watch an on-line Documentary - Inside Job.
http://documentarystorm.com/inside-job/
Then if you are not an American.
Why get so bent out of shape about the politics of a country you do not live in and that you are not familiar with ( apparently ) that you would attack good people that are trying to make their country better for ALL.
what nationality are you ?
Brand new (?) new born to the forum?
Huh. And yet you react to someone Else's hate mail. React to and support it.
What should a law abiding supporter of the Constitution make of such a random incident?
Read the link I provided. I tell you my old username. Iv'e been here since the start. Since September of last year.
MY MY MY - Surprise - Hi, my name is Thrasymaque.
The main fucker of the forum.
Or I should say one of the main fuckers of the forum.
Old multiple personality asshole #1.
Well that say's much.
Go play with yourself.
He's a kid. I think you guys should give him a break and a chance to partake in a different manner. It isn't him that shut down the forum this morning anyway.
Thanks mate. Peace, and I hope your CMS is doing great!
I actually wanted to help mate. The information I posted about bots is useful. If jart implemented real bans and login Captchas using bots would be much harder.
Anyways, How's your "no plane" theory holding up?
Who's no plane theory?
What no plane theory?
You should be more forth coming - even when you are being playful.
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Why the propaganda photo? I saw a black bloc in action. They were breaking windows, destroying windshields, emptying garbage cans in the street, etc... All in my neighborhood. I helped clean up afterwards, they didn't. (Thanks for the solidarity guys ;-() I never would have brought a baby if I had marched with them. Your photo is not representative of what the black bloc is.
If the black bloc wasn't a problem, then you wouldn't have to try to trick us with a propaganda photo. The fact that you had to use such a trick pretty much answers your question.
Because of the acts of vandalism recorded by occupiers and the media.
In comparison to the ten thousand fold acts of police physical violence that go unreported?
You don't counter police violence by breaking windows at stores.
What is Black Bloc to you? How do you see it?
Occupy is a peaceful protest. And what I've seen from Black Bloc does not seem peaceful. At least not from their first few appearances. Honestly I don't really think about Black Bloc much because i don't view it as the same as OWS
I love the guy at 4 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz22OvY6FTY
While I do like what they did to Wells Fargo... it's not good for the image. I don't suggest actions like that... I won't participate in anything like that either.
When you have majority support... it's easier to banish things. You can't just jump the shark.
Also it's not fair to occupy protesters to do such actions during their protests. That's what helped ruin the image of OWS in the media. It was fodder for the press.
Had it been done separately, it would have been better for their cause... and it wouldn't have tarnished the image of OWS.
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Logical fallacy: Two wrongs don't make a right.
I hope you don't use the same logic to defend the use of corruption by OWS. As in - "Look, it's OK if OWS is corrupted since the government is corrupted even more!"
And, I hope the police doesn't use your logic to defend itself as in - "Look, we might seem brutal, but the police in China is 10 time more brutal!"