Forum Post: Who are the critical thinkers in the OWS movement?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 31, 2011, 12:46 a.m. EST by Thrasymaque
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Are there a few critical thinkers that are leading the OWS movement? If so, who are they and what books have they published?
I'd like to think critically, but after 20 years of this country's education, I can only think inside of multiple choice questions.
The politicians are preparing you to fill in the bubbles to vote for them.
Some people have a 'small world view'. I used to work at a little radio station in my small town in Indiana where I worked on the FM side spinning the hits overnights, we also had an AM side that carried many of the conservative talkers you've heard of.
You wouldn't believe how many times I had to answer the phone and explain to people that Rush Limbaugh was not there and did not live in Indiana. Many were crestfallen.
I'm from Indiana too but probably turned ur station off when Rush was piped in, lol. Psst, don't tell the OWS NYC that Indiana isn't just one cornfield. Let them think what they want, lmao.
Me.
There are critical thinkers in this movement (I like to think I am one but you can judge by reading my posts.) And there are writers who are relevant to the issues we face. Not so often are the the same persons. Frankly, the best criticisms and analyses are by people who aren't in the movement per se.
So thinking critically, I am not sure that bundling the two criteria is that useful. I may be proved wrong, and please do so. There are, I believe some recent books that are trying to understand "us" and our issues. And there are a number that have done a good job of diagnosing the financial meltdown. There are also those who are addressing the issues of governance and corruption that we are facing. Reading some of each categories of these give you a broad view of our situation. Maybe someone can point out some the best at combining all three. I would be interested.
One guy that predicted a lot of this who was in the Nixon administration, and who has seen the error of his ways is Kevin Phillips (Bad Money, and the American Theocracy). I wish he would write one now but maybe he is too old? Lessig's "Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--and a Plan to Stop It" some say is good, but I haven't read it yet.
Maybe you just meant "leading in an intellectual sense"?
Thanks for the clear response. It's funny, a lot of people have suddenly been responding to this two month old post. I guess somebody must have bumped it and others started posting comments. I posted it when I first arrived here and knew nothing of OWS. I wanted to know who were the intellectual leaders behind OWS. Who where the ones to structure the protest for example. From which philosophy it stemmed, etc... I have since come to know that David Graeber's ideas played a big part. I'm not sure who else.
Thank you for the book titles. I'll take a look at those.
I and I will check David Graeber. I wouldn't judge the movement by the folks in NYC. Clearly there are some fringe elements that are disproportionately represented there. Sounds like you are correct, reading his bio. I had heard there are a couple of schools with radical groups involved with OccypyNYC.
They seem to have burned out somewhat as have the paid Teapartiers.
I am encouraged by the extent that the movement, 99% plus Occupy etc, has entered all of the political and financial discourse globally.
I don't think identifying the critical thinkers is all that important (unless, of course, you're trying to publish a book).
I firmly believe that the participants in this movement often rise to do, say or write things they never would have done, said or written alone. Whether they're occupying a public space, debating on this forum, planning nonviolent direct actions or engaging in any other activities related to OWS movement, the interaction of participants (warts and all) synthesizes into a collective uprising that POTENTIALLY has unique and historic power.
Who these participants are as individuals might be interesting to a writer, reporter, author, government agent or corporate security officer, but for most of us, the individuals, although interesting, are not the point. By no means do I mean to imply that individuals should subjugate themselves to some collective. They shouldn't. I'm just saying that the movement gains its strength from the collective and the individuals might not do some of the great work they do without being a part of such a dynamic community.
I am convinced that we do not need to choose between participating in the system to effect change and working from the outside to effect change. To me, it's a false choice. We can be leaderless (actually I like the term leaderful that someone recently used on this forum) and have focus. We can work from the outside and the inside.
THE INSIDE: We can work collectively from the inside to get the foot of corporatism off our neck, not as an end in itself, but as a means. We can work from the inside in order to buy some breathing room and some time. This will allow us to engage in more important, more far reaching nonviolent direct action that will ultimately undermine the elite's hold on our government. Clearly that's not enough. We also need to put this thing back together again in a way that is true to the intent of our founding fathers. To do this, to work on the inside, we could do things like this http://occupywallst.org/forum/moderating-policies-will-be-reposted-somewhere-pro/ that could result in some legislation that makes a real difference for the movement and real people on the ground in the interim. Again, not a perfect doc my any means. Not an end in and of itself. Just a means to a larger end. Trying to be practical here.
ON THE OUTSIDE: At the same time, all along the way, I agree with others who say we should be working from the outside to expose corruption in the corpopolitical oligarchy and loosen the grip of money on our politics. I personally picture waves of actions, large and small, beating relentlessly against the shore of corporatism.
My point is, each of us, the millions, need to rise to be our best selves and apply whatever skills and talents we possess on whichever side of the great effort we can best serve. As we human beings collectively wake from our slumber and shake off the system that has fed on our flesh on and off for 150 years, we'll begin to feel our oats and get our groove on.
Once that confidence reemerges, this all gets fun. I think that's where this is headed in our lifetime. I for one feel fortunate to live in this era. Beautiful to see all that's happening. So many great people. So much to learn.
And the process of awakening is energizing. Like the sun rising through the morning clouds warming your face, this movement warms our spirit. That may sound touchy feely, but it is that very heartwarming experience that attracts and retains participants. That's how we go from being the millions to being the 99% and eventually the 100%. Engaging in community with others on a meaningful project creates a buzz that beats any drink or drug. The fact that we the people will eventually wake up from this buzz free and in control of our government is the icing on the cake.
Noam Chomsky is perhaps the most critical, leading thinker in the OWS movement. This is his most recent video about OWS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se-Nq_rBQHk
Has he worked directly with OWS? Does he attend general assemblies? Just curious.
He has made speeches in Occupy Boston, Occupy New York, Occupy Australia. I think he would be hesitant to call himself a leader - for he views the actual organizers as the leaders - but I think there is no question that his body of work, spanned over 50 years, has been a driving force to this kind of uprising.
Thanks for replying like a sane person, unlike Puzzlin. That's greatly appreciated.
WTF- What an idiot!
Where did you get that cool critical style of writing in your position statement?
What College did you graduate?
What makes you a critical thinker?
I want answers man!!!
It's critical!!!
Did you read my question? I never proclaimed to be a critical thinker. I was seriously asking who the critical thinkers behind OWS were so that I could learn more about the theories behind the protest. That was two months ago, before I knew that David Graeber was one of the important critical thinkers behind Occupy. I have since read his works, and the works of others. It helped me better understand OWS.
You should try reading some time. It might help you ameliorate your English comprehension skills.
Just kidding dude! Why so up tight? Relax. Explain yourself.
I thought this was a leaderless movement. But I guess you must know more than I.
Are we being lead? Are you one of the new leaders?
Being leaderless does not mean that there weren't any critical thinkers who helped plan the protest at its onset. OWS began with a handful of people, and most of those were critical thinkers like David Graeber.
No, I'm not a leader of OWS.
I'm not uptight. I'm quite relaxed actually. I'm not the one commenting with bold highlighting and many exclamation marks like a little child.
Good. Then that makes us equal. Fine with me.
[Removed]
Whatever Mr. gop2012
Are you a Republican?
Why? We are not sheep. We think for ourselves.
I'd like to think that I'm capable of critical thought.
Hmmm... a critical assessment indeed.
Start making signs detailing FRAUD fines and penalties paid by the Big Banks to the SEC and DOJ. Advertise their misdeeds! Inform the public. If the government would put the executives of criminal schemes in jail instead of writing checks in 'settlement', a repeat of the economic collapse of 2008 would be less likely.
There are so many great thinkers that support OWS the list is very long,. but here are a few to get you started;
Chris Hedges - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges
Naomi Klein - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein
Noam Chomsky - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
or more folks you could have found yourself just looking on the OWS wikipidia page;
Cornel West, Slavoj Žižek, David Graeber, Stéphane Hessel, Paul Krugman, Jeff Madrick, Joseph Stiglitz, Jimmy Wales, Richard D. Wolff
in fact there are a many more names on that page artists, authors and academics,. did you even try looking?
I'm not interesting in thinkers like Chomsky who support OWS by giving them their seal of approval. I'm interested in the young generation of thinkers who started OWS and are on the front lines.
these people are at the occupations,. you are just looking for someone to trash,. as you are a troll. And knowing you can not debate with any of the above thinkers,. (that would be like taking a knife to a gun fight!) you are searching for anyone with less clarity of thought so you can attack them. I just read some of your comments here and you are spreading lies and just naysaying,. nothing more. I bid you good day, Sir.
I'm not looking to debate with these thinkers. We are looking to prepare a book with fresh ideas. We have already published books by Chompsky, and we want to give others a chance. Again, the point is not to debate with them, but to give them a printed forum in which they can explain their ideas.
as someone who does not support the movement,. you want to publish a book about it,. right. I said good day!
Penguin books publishes works on all kinds of issues. Some of use at Penguin support the protest, others don't, but this does not change the fact that the protest is important. We believe everyone should have the right to choose by themselves if they wish to support the protest or not, and we believe the best way to accomplish this is to create a book which gives a podium to the young critical thinkers behind the protest.
There arent any. They are all newbies. Which has its good points but its bad ones has well.
critically thinking.... we must move to change S E C REGULATION that will disallow Golden Parachute awards to SENIOR Execs - Rid the BONUS plans to Senior execs. --- 1. MAKE every CORPORATION sitting on a stock index to BUILD their CORPORATE Balance sheet to now include "%" revenue going back to community - Feed the HUNGRY- clothe the poor and provide community with first OPPORTUNITY for any and all job openings/new hires they have; 2. PUBLISH every single employee salary, job titles- This now becomes public information to instill a new level of trust; this alone will BREAK Corporations of "feathering their nests" with their buddies from a company they just left - MAKE THEM hire Executive level individuals RESPONSIBLY 3. CAP EXECUTIVE SALARIES - No one in a publicly traded company can make over $300,000. CEO, CIO, CFO capped at $300K; COO' and any other Chief officers of the company capped at $250K; Senior VP's capped at $200K. BONUS Packages voted on by the employees. - When a CEO fails YOU DO NOT GET A BONUS PACKAGE. You DO NOT GET REWARDED FOR FAILURE a. When you establish the CAP on salaries you then put a plan in motion to remove a dividend plan and motion to change with a profit sharing plan that INCLUDES every employee in the company. i. The left over revenue and profit will now be divided out first a percentage goes to every employee EQUALLY - no one deserves any more than another ii Another percentage goes to community caring projects - charities that are chosen by the employees - VOTE internally - and come up with a few choice ways for the CORPORATION to give back to their community at large This is a start to CHANGING our SYSTEMS that have grown corrupt and full of GREED. Please write this to every congressperson you can - send this message out ... we 99%'ers need to take action now and drive this change. NO MORE CORPORATE GREED _ it ends now!
Some people have a 'small world view'. I used to work at a little radio station in my small town in Indiana where I worked on the FM side spinning the hits overnights, we also had an AM side that carried many of the conservative talkers you've heard of.
You wouldn't believe how many times I had to answer the phone and explain to people that Rush Limbaugh was not there and did not live in Indiana. Many were crestfallen.
There are only two financial systems in the world. Communism and capitalism. Communism was tried and it failed. So we are stuck with capitalism. What we need to do is bring it back under the control of the people so that "it serves us" and we don't serve "it". The only way to do that is to demand legislation in all coutries limiting the size of every business by turnover. Small family businesses can have a maximum turnover of "X" Banks can have a maximum turnover of "Y", Other businesses are limited to a turnover of "Z". It's a simple solution but the result would be . . .
On reaching the limit the company has to be split into two by the formation of a similar business. No common shareholdings allowed and only a minority of directors in common to both organisations. This should be introduced over time to allow companies to plan.
Advantages . . . .
• More businesses keep springing up • Each business needs its own directors and senior management and so more employees get to have executive roles. i.e. the wealth is shared. • Salaries and bonuses cannot be as unacceptably high as smaller business cannot afford them. • No business ever becomes too big to fail. • Wider choice of suppliers • More opportunities for employees to move to other companies. • A stronger, broader economy. • Happier employees and lower unemployment.
Disadvantages . . . .
• The city of London and Wall Street won’t like it.
You guys need to concentrate your purpose and have one central demand.
There are only two financial systems in the world. Communism and capitalism. Communism was tried and it failed. So we are stuck with capitalism. What we need to do is bring it back under the control of the people so that "it serves us" and we don't serve "it". The only way to do that is to demand legislation in all coutries limiting the size of every business by turnover. Small family businesses can have a maximum turnover of "X" Banks can have a maximum turnover of "Y", Other businesses are limited to a turnover of "Z". It's a simple solution but the result would be . . .
On reaching the limit the company has to be split into two by the formation of a similar business. No common shareholdings allowed and only a minority of directors in common to both organisations. This should be introduced over time to allow companies to plan.
Advantages . . . .
• More businesses keep springing up • Each business needs its own directors and senior management and so more employees get to have executive roles. i.e. the wealth is shared. • Salaries and bonuses cannot be as unacceptably high as smaller business cannot afford them. • No business ever becomes too big to fail. • Wider choice of suppliers • More opportunities for employees to move to other companies. • A stronger, broader economy. • Happier employees and lower unemployment.
Disadvantages . . . .
• The city of London and Wall Street won’t like it.
You guys need to concentrate your purpose and have one central demand.
Why do you want to target a few as "leaders" when the movement is about the people, for the people, and of the people. This movement is truly participatory and organic democratic mobilization.
Further, publication of books does not determine who deserves a democratic voice. and there are no leaders per se. Occupy should not be limited to simple impulses of "show me your leader." Occupy is democracy in action... it's an organic, popular movement of the people.
And I am just one voice in this movement, and I am honored to be surrounded by so many others who are also also dedicated to democratic power of the people.
Pure BS. Successful protests all had leaders. OWS will fail for sure. They are arrogant fools who are completely uninformed.
Please be respectful of democracy as a participatory process of PEOPLE and remember you are on OWS's social forum which was created to support the dialectic in a productive manner, not to be divisive and derogatory towards the movement and its supporters.
I don't agree with liberals who falsely claim that everybody is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is the liberals are in a trance and are uninformed. They will destroy OWS. i'M TRYING TO PREVENT the destruction of OWS.
You try to label my basic statements that applaud democratic participation as the following: "liberal," "entitled," "arrogantly foolish," "destructive to the movement," "uninformed," and "lost in a trance." If you truly want to "prevent the destruction of OWS," why are you trying to nit-pick, ridicule, and demonize those who are struggling for its progress? This movement is not about superiority; it is about humanity, equality, and democracy. So please try to harness some humility and civility when you engage in debates that are critically important not only to you, but to all of us. thank you.
Its called TRUTH.
Being a liar isn't civil. You people are in a bottomless pit of lies and in your trance you call it "political correct".
Nothing I wrote is nitpicking. This movement is about getting screwed by criminals taking bribes. You have no clue as to why people have sat in the park for 5 weeks.
Try to harness your delusions. This disaster is serious to me. Its not a civics class in high school.
I believe a good democracy can only be made with leaders. When everyone's voice is equal, the great thinkers get lost amongst the idiots. A great democracy works when thinkers think, constructors build, designers design and so on. Please take a moment to read up on democracy.
i believe your role as a journalist is very practical and could be great for the movement if done right, but please be understanding of the heightened emotions of people who are behind this movement. being democratically active is our right, but it is often seen as "revolutionary" by those who benefit from the present reality, and nobody here wants to be targeted as a threat and therefore a target for repression.
please read my most recent post. i am not here to offend you or belittle anyone. so please do not be condescending towards me or anyone else. i believe everyone here is here because we believe in democracy, and there is no reason to get distracted with juvenile retorts. please understand that your initial post was very charged and was obviously responded to as such. people don't want to be targeted in this movement, and so please openly disclose your intentions with posting such inquiries if they are for a purpose other than being supportive of the movement.
Skills
The list of core critical thinking skills includes observation, interpretation,
analysis, inference, evaluation, explanation, and meta-cognition. There is a
reasonable level of consensus among experts that an individual or group engaged in
strong critical thinking gives due consideration to:
1- Evidence through observation
2- Context
3- Relevant criteria for making the judgment well
4- Applicable methods or techniques for forming the judgment
5- Applicable theoretical constructs for understanding the problem and the question at hand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Being wrong for 20 years -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.
My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.
I've been waiting for a protest for more than a decade and finally we have OWS. When people finally got so pissed off they began to camp in the park in NYC I presumed they would be eager to do the only thing possible to combat the 50,000,000 jobs that were stolen from them to enrich the privileged. The only thing possible is to nominate candidates ready to defy "political correct" bribes that all politicians take to allow the trade policy, and the tax policy used by our elected government to steal those jobs and replace those American workers with slaves from different countries but primarily from China. It wasn't enough that American business would exploit Mexicans at $2 per hour, they wanted the work to be done for nothing.
If anybody wanted to bet me that I couldn't go to the park and convince the protestors to nominate candidates for the 2012 election to implement their demands, I would have gladly taken that bet. I make lots of bets and sometimes I lose those bets but I win most of my bets and a few times I've bet the ranch because I knew for a fact that I couldn't possibly lose. The only bet I needed to risk was the $18.50 cost of transportation I needed to spend to get to the park 6 times. I've been wrong 6 times on top of being wrong about the response I got from all the people on the OWS forum websites. I was finally blocked by the NYCGA for my arguments on their website by a bunch of liberals who falsely claim they are open to all ideas.
I know for a fact that most Americans aren't stupid. I know for a fact that all conservatives are stupid or they wouldn't be conservatives. Being wrong for more than 20 years is a long time to be wrong and not know it. Being self destructive sitting in the park and refusing to grasp the simple fact that unless a 3rd party is elected to congress that justice is never going to happen from an entire elected body who is taking bribes condoned by the United States Supreme Court; can only happen because they are all in a trance. They can't possibly be that stupid.
Automation brings wonders. A thresher can do the work of a score of serfs. I don't need them anymore. Why share? They did none of the work.
There are 100,000,000 Chinese slaves who got the work (not jobs) from the job creators in America. Get real.
an china is industrializing
power plants are burning there adding CO2 to the sky
Its the planet's sky. I have a remedy for that too.
ya sure
No one is "handling" the movement. there is no "they" that you speak of. it is simply a space where we can all find a common ground in our otherwise divisive discussions. IF you agree with the cause than you are part of the 99% that is fed up with our current situation. no one is dictating policies here we are all here to discuss and listen. some are better at listening than others but at least we have a big forum in which to have our voices heard. differing views are encouraged as long as they are not intentionally looking for an argument. We need to focus on what we agree on more than we need to focus on our differences
Oh sorry. I thought it was a movement backed up by the strong vision of critical thinkers. Are you saying it's just a bunch of hippies in a park repeating what's been said a zillion times before over and over again?
Is this for a Fox News story?
No. I work at Penguin Books and we wanted to create a book in which the critical thinkers in OWS could explain their movement in detail. It looks like we will have to abandon the idea since we can't seem to find anyone interested. A small tip: don't watch Fox, it's horrible.
That is a good idea. The problem is critical thinking is not where the active protesters find their inspiration. Simple facts and directly connected actions of banks and government in recent years point clearly to the source of their discontent. The effect that this has had on them specifically is disturbing, and when one looks into it with the perspective of a concerned and empathetic fellow citizen, then you can understand and believe that the actions taken are only natural given their circumstances.
We were hoping to find creative critical thinkers who had clear ideas for solutions in the OWS movement. I guess we'll have to come up with another idea for a book. I guess we could write about communal living. Hmm... Thanks man.
if you really believe in the importance of publishing a book on the Occupy movement, why are you so quick to abandon the idea? Because if you actually believe in the importance of documenting this movement for the sake of democracy and progress, I would recommend you do the following: Openly represent yourself as a journalist. People will respond to you better if you don't try to infiltrate anonymously. State your purpose, and don't try to deceive.
The company I work for has made proposals to the OWS comity's, but nothing has stuck yet. They are still working on it. The problem is we can't just write about whatever whoever wants to say. We want the message to be well articulated and representative of the movement has a whole and that's why we are searching for the critical thinkers in OWS. We've been searching for a few weeks and we are still empty handed, but we haven't giving up yet. It might still happen, who knows.
Oh I didn't realize you were trying to capitalize on peoples misfortune. On the subject of communal living, we are all stuck on this planet, so lets figure out how to make it work and not cause more trouble through selfish agendas. I am sure that in time there will be allot more information for your book. Lets hope for the best outcome of course. Good evening to you. I must bid you farewell.
We were planning on giving the book's profits back to the OWS movement. Penguin books was one of the first companies to support the movement.
rick perry and obama
I'm just a lonely blogger, but, I have been studying this reform subject since 2008, so here's my 2 cents Thrasymaque: My Twitt:
Million People March to WDC to Reinstate Glass-Steagall Act. When? 6/16/12, 79th Anniv of G-S Act.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/
I agree entirely in reinstalling Glass-Steagall. This is a probability by next spring. The American Spring to Action.
You didn't learn a lesson from the mortgage meltdown crimes.
No derivatives except for hedges. Open the books and dump the toxic assets now. Move all savings and checking accounts to stable banks and bankrupt the rest. Clean house with a new government.
Prosecute all the crooks. Elect me to congress CT 4th district and you'll see a mass round up of all the bribe takers in Congress.
yes!
That is actually a good idea.
thanks partner! I'm brand new at this blog stuff, so please help spread the word!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-for-a-million-people-march-to-capitol-hil/
Have a good night
Just remember ... the entire Glass-Steagall Act was never repealed. Just pieces of it.
For example, the Glass-Steagall Act also set up the FDIC. That agency is important and still exists, ... and is actually more powerful today because of what happened in recent history.
Many people on this forum (and in this movement) seem to think the whole act was thrown in the garbage. It wasn't. Just pieces of it.
Either you're the only one who knows that or you're hallucinating.
It's time for you to do some independent research. If you rely on "slogans" coming from the "movement", you will never know the truth.
Start here ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act
"The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLB), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, (Pub.L. 106-102, 113 Stat. 1338, enacted November 12, 1999) is an act of the 106th United States Congress (1999–2001). It repealed part of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933, removing barriers in the market among banking companies, securities companies and insurance companies that prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company. With the passage of the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act, commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies were allowed to consolidate. The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton."
If you notice, the provisions of "The Community Reinvestment Act (CRA)" were also still kept in place when pieces of Glass-Steagall were removed.
That piece of legislation laid the groundwork for the sub-prime mortgage market and the eventual housing bubble. Yet no one in the movement talks about that.
Rico, you've been manipulated by BS. They are all crooks who did it for fees and bonuses which is embezzlement. They don't give a shit about any laws. That's why they pay the bribes to stay out of prison.
glad you brought that up, I am aware of that from another post, but most writiers use the word repealed, that's why I switched to Mick Jagger's Shattered...
thanks for bringing that up, my goal is to be accute, first.
you are
I'm not part of the movement.
why not?
I don't like how the movement is handled. I think they are doing it all wrong. I agree with the cause, but completely and utterly disagree with the way they are going about it.
we are protesting. what's wrong with that? take note from a republican president of old: Rutherford B Hayes, 19th president, spoke thus: "In church it occurred to me that it is time for the public to hear that the giant evil and danger in this country, the danger which transcends all others, is the vast wealth owned or controlled by a few persons. Money is power. In Congress, in state legislatures, in city councils, in the courts, in the political conventions, in the press, in the pulpit, in the circles of the educated and the talented, its influence is growing greater and greater. Excessive wealth in the hands of the few means extreme poverty, ignorance, vice, and wretchedness as the lot of the many. It is not yet time to debate about the remedy. The previous question is as to the danger—the evil. Let the people be fully informed and convinced as to the evil. Let them earnestly seek the remedy and it will be found. Fully to know the evil is the first step towards reaching its eradication. Henry George is strong when he portrays the rottenness of the present system. We are, to say the least, not yet ready for his remedy. We may reach and remove the difficulty by changes in the laws regulating corporations, descents of property, wills, trusts, taxation, and a host of other important interests, not omitting lands and other property."
Money is power because of this shameful reason: politicians care more about lining their pockets than the electorate who put them in office. Greedy politicians.
The electorate did not put them in office, their corporate sponsors did.
Politicians are in office because we put them there. They stay because they are bought off. Very few are ever put away for their greed.
85% of elections are won by the candidate with the most money to spend. A house seat requires up to $5 million, a senate seat $10 million or more. Once in office, a house member must raise on the order of $10,000 per week to fund a reelection campaign.
No shit? It cost the guy with the big ears a billion bucks. Not him directly, of course, but his supporters from all over the world kicked in.
Which is why he will be able to afford to buy a second term.
Sure as helllll hope not.
Nothing wrong with protesting when it's done right.
When you claim you speak for 99% of the people and you forcefully take hold of a public park in such a way that other tax payers cannot use the park any longer like they used to before, that is akin to authoritarian tactics.
I like the Socratic method. You go to the public area, say what you have to say in a clear and articulated manner, then you leave so others can use the space for their own protests or whatever else they like to do in the park. No need to repeat your message day after day like untiring parrots. You could do one protest a week, that is enough. Socrates doesn't pretend to speak for the masses, he speaks for himself and others are open to follow if they wish.
OWS seems to much like a cult for my liking.
I havent seen any force from the OWS. Socrates was a philosopher not a protester. cult??
How are you today thrasymkay?
pretty good considering the debate
I wanted to point out that Socrates believed in the authority of the people and the state to the point that no matter his logic he let them condemn him do death and accepted it willingly. Though I wish there were more like him minus the blind acceptance of the uneducated decisions of the larger group that feared instability more than they desired intelligence. The voice of reason cannot be silenced so easily by beaurocratic authority and the discomfort of a few.
Socrates was coming from an entirely different perspective than are those practicing their right to voice their dissent. Had he been in dissent with the state over the way it was being run I suggest that he would not have been so willing to let them put him to death. Since he wasn't actively engaged in dissent with the state... he therefore accepted their decisions.
Show me one fact that Socrates or Plato ever wrote. I can't read Greek.
You mean "it's all Greek to me".
And stop whining.
Yes, but he never claimed he spoke for all the people. That's a major difference with OWS. And, of course, no one in OWS are willing to make sacrifices. I heard they don't even want to feed the homeless.
OWS doesnt claim to speak for the 99%. they are protesting the condition our culture,world,economy,way of life, is in because of the tyranny of the 1% . Freezing at night is a sacrifice.
Thrasymkay, why are you stalking me by bumping my very old comments?
they're freezing in the night
Lies, sir, lies. They claim it not. The numbers show it clearly. As for sacrifices they have made so many this is their only option. They consistently feed all who come, they cannot go out of their way for this purpose for they have another, and they are not a shelter but a concerted movement. Again farewell. I have enjoyed your conversations.
Sacrifice for a realistic goal like electing a 3rd party. They are in a trance that believes the propaganda which tells them to throw in a pat hand, and they do it. They are self destructive whiners.
We have to force the issue. You believe in a polite revolution?
I believe in voting. The USA is in a total trance. They vote for an entire government taking bribes.
I don't believe a revolution is needed, and I believe you speak for a small percentage of Americans when you say it is. I believe your movement is based on a lie when it claims 99% of the people agree with it. Lies are the seed of corruption. You can't just decide that you speak for 99% of the people, then go around and do what you think is right forcefully. That is the thinking of an authoritarian dictatorship. That is exactly what George Bush and other Presidents do when the claim to speak for the majority of the American people then start a war. You are just like these crooks.
I don't claim to speak for all of the 99% but I do claim to speak to issues that affect the 99% disproportionately from the 1%. You are always free to judge whether I am on target or not, as is everyone else. Who I am speaking for is not up to me but up to you and them. People who claim to speak for anyone (especially God) are to be avoided.
You are replying to comments that are two months old. A lot has changed in my mind since then.
Understood. So Has mine.
67% of Americans agree.
zombie matt
tries not to use the word "you"
No one said 99% of people agree with it. Why would you say that, it makes no sense. 99% is the slogan. It means to imply that the richest 1% are destroying this country, which is true. Revolution can mean a lot of things. We need major changes in this country. How would you propose we make that happen, ask nicely?
First: you are a troll. Nobody likes you here because you are against the OWS movement.
Second: you dumb fuck: The 'Socratic method' was Socrates accosting people and asking them pertinent questions which they did not want to answer.
The 'Socratic method' was being a constant thorn in the side of the Status Quo, causing so much trouble that he was arrested, put on trial and sentenced to death. The "Socratic method' is the willingness to die for what you believe in.
You fucking dumb fucking troll: Socrates was never a respecter of the public or of property: You wouldn't know the Socratic method if it smashed you in the mouth. Get the fuck off this forum. You are a waster of other people's time.
Your wasting everyone's time by bumping two month old posts. What's your problem old disgruntled fart? You need to get laid; to get a bit of sunshine in your life.
you are an obscene piece of rotting filth You are a TROLL You spew lies and bullshit everywhere you go you live on this forum night and day You and others like you are the lowest scum of the internet.
All you can think about is how much ATTENTION you can get from trolling here.
You are a little lonely spoiled baby: whose mommy and daddy never paid enough ATTENTION to.
Trolls like youi don't like it when they are exposed as TROLLS. trolls do not like to stick to the relevant ISSUES. troll and assholes like you do not like it when their ignorance is exposed and they are shown to be little idiots who have never read a BOOK in their lives. Do not try to come onto this forum and prance around like you are anything more than an ENEMY of the OWS movement you little fucking turd. You and all the other trolls who spend their lives here wasting their lives here like you are doing are the lowest SCUM of the earth, and what's more, you KNOW it.
You just don't like it being pointed OUT.
They sit in the park and whine. They are completely uninformed and arrogant. No logical argument means anything to them. Liberals want to lose. they think this is a class room where they push ridiculous theories. Facts don't matter. Its a shame.
It has to start somewhere.
OWS is obviously self destructive. See my posts on this thread so I don't spam it.
I think not. The poster is not even accountable.-
http://occupywallst.org/forum/please-donate-books-to-ows/#comment-243120
They don't read books, they know it all. Read my blog http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I'm not accountable because I didn't reply to every single one of your messages. I replied to all of them except that one, then I went to sleep. You're a moron who believes in conspiracy theories. I don't have more time to waste on that.
Now you misrepresent your short comings as something else. You failed to answer direct and specific questions verifying your assertions and used cognitive distortions evasively. You failed to acknowledge known facts while also failing to acknowledge known CIA programs that could explain your behavior.-
http://www.wanttoknow.info/050626mkultra
I have other more important things to do than to reply to illogical conspiracy theorists who use every post they make to insert a link. I think you're a lunatic. I think you are simple minded. Essentially, I think you are not very smart and that is why you hold on to conspiracy theories like they were golden scientific theories worth more than anything in the world.
Cognitive distortions of "all or nothing thinking", "labeling" and "minimizations" will not vindicate you. You have shown yourself.
Who cares?
you do have a point as to behavioral patterns that lack insight into their own origins.
There is an explanation. The behaviors are unconscious. The dumbing down removed historical references to this issue which has seriously empowered the nwo with greater secrecy. The point being that folks acting from such origins will never be reasonable no matter what.-------
Most importantly is that we realize that it is possible to define what are behaviors consistent with stated intent. From my standpoint, we are absolutely screwed if we do not gain unity and this kind of behavior will never unify within reasonable means for political success. Therefore, we need to be able to recognize it and reject it in favor of behaviors that can use facts, recognize laws and common sense use of them.-----
The discussion started around books, and the fact that the elite have been burning certain books since printing was invented. What they were burning related to the keeping of oral histories, which books endeavored to replace. When this one started asserting that oral histories did not exist here, and that books held all the valuable knowledge, I knew something was wrong.--
I continued to seek a reasonable and accountable basis for assertions and found none. Only distortions and evasion.
I wrote a book. See it on my blog http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Being wrong for 20 years -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.
My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.
I've been waiting for a protest for more than a decade and finally we have OWS. When people finally got so pissed off they began to camp in the park in NYC I presumed they would be eager to do the only thing possible to combat the 50,000,000 jobs that were stolen from them to enrich the privileged. The only thing possible is to nominate candidates ready to defy "political correct" bribes that all politicians take to allow the trade policy, and the tax policy used by our elected government to steal those jobs and replace those American workers with slaves from different countries but primarily from China. It wasn't enough that American business would exploit Mexicans at $2 per hour, they wanted the work to be done for nothing.
If anybody wanted to bet me that I couldn't go to the park and convince the protestors to nominate candidates for the 2012 election to implement their demands, I would have gladly taken that bet. I make lots of bets and sometimes I lose those bets but I win most of my bets and a few times I've bet the ranch because I knew for a fact that I couldn't possibly lose. The only bet I needed to risk was the $18.50 cost of transportation I needed to spend to get to the park 6 times. I've been wrong 6 times on top of being wrong about the response I got from all the people on the OWS forum websites. I was finally blocked by the NYCGA for my arguments on their website by a bunch of liberals who falsely claim they are open to all ideas.
I know for a fact that most Americans aren't stupid. I know for a fact that all conservatives are stupid or they wouldn't be conservatives. Being wrong for more than 20 years is a long time to be wrong and not know it. Being self destructive sitting in the park and refusing to grasp the simple fact that unless a 3rd party is elected to congress that justice is never going to happen from an entire elected body who is taking bribes condoned by the United States Supreme Court; can only happen because they are all in a trance. They can't possibly be that stupid.
On the trade issue, agreed, That is the most pertinent to our economic situation. I agree the only pragmatic means to correct that is, candidates must be backed who will stand firm on this issue. The third party thing is a little more debatable. Unless it can walk in to Congress with a majority, I don't see how it can get the job done. In the presidential realm, remember, Nader served only as a "spoiler".
Thank you very much for sharing that. I hear your pain, I know a similar one. We've communicated before by email and I know you are sincere and where you are coming from.------
Your ability to analyse what is competent conscious accountability consistent with implied intent is noted. Hopefully OWS will realize they've seriously mislead tens of thousands of sincere and commited yoing people willing to make serious sacrifices to secure their futures.----
I urge you to keep a line open towards reinvolving later, after OWS figures out how to use strategy that gives it the upper hand in lawfulness. the protestors should go home, get on their computer and start working to communicate with those that know how to use article 5, the ultimate form of democracy and the way to tuse the constitution to defend itself.-
Check this strategy for using article 5.
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.htm
We have no time to waste. I will run as the CT 4th district Green Party candidate. Please support my campaign.
I agree and will find some way to support your campaign. If a forum, chat or skype opportunity comes up, let me know.
ah. thanks
[Removed]
Pssssssssssssst....you might want to define "critical thinking" for the sake of discussion. :)
Scholars who write serious essays that appear in peer-reviewed journals, and who write critical books on various subjects. Thinkers who are considered critical in their field. And, by association, scholars working in the field of critical theory developed by the Frankfurt School.
I don't know why, but Puzzlin bumped this two month old posting today. I have found my answers since. We can let this posting since down again.
[Removed]
http://occupywallstreetmusic.com/
"Blood Money"
Corporations want to get paid and they dont care who bleeds Thats why my sneakers are made by children over seas And their hourly wage is not enough to eat, but companies get away because no one oversees. man It’s about the G’s, better get em Because I’ve seen the poor get ignored by the system. But in reality I see the poor are the Victims of this cannibal animal called capitalism. Wheres the lack of division between the haves and the have-nots? Chance to advance but they plan so you can not. Get the jail route if you caught with that crack rock get a bail out.... If your crimes are from bad stocks. Cant stop trying to find answers how can they deny coverage when they find cancer. Tax breaks for the rich while the poor trying to buy Pampers. You cant prepare for the life after with your Blood Money.
Wall Street ruins lives for that Blood Money In Iraq soldiers dying for that Blood Money
Politicians committing crimes for that Blood Money Fox News telling lies for that Blood Money
We ignoring human rights for that Blood Money The environment sacrificed for that Blood Money
We all going to pay the price for that Blood Money Thats what they want from me
The Planet gets warmer cuz you filling up your Humvee the cash from countries where kids going hungry. Drug war in Mexico is getting kind of ugly and we support it every time we buy a bag and puff trees. You must see the terrorist that want to bomb you get there money off the drugs you put in your nostrils. And I support that Julian Assange dude he showed us who we killing when we bring them bombs through! Do what I’ve got to, I’m just tryna survive shopping that gross product from off of I-95 Because thats how we was brought up, how we was taught to survive knowing we going to get caught up and locked up for our crimes i’m from where the greed breed hopelessness Politicians on the TV they dont think we notice it. Give me a week of them Wall Street bonuses I’ll take it to the streets and feed homeless kids off of this BLOOD MONEY
Cain will be destroyed by the media because he's black
Cain is now charged with sexual harassment. There are no names and the specifics are that he supposedly asked a woman to go with him to his hotel room. Personally, I don't care if Herman Cain is destroyed and I will never vote for him.
Once I had an experience with sexual harassment. I was selling fax machines and was given the opportunity to get the endorsement from the CPAs in CT. I brought the fax to their office in Hartford. The lady in the office led me to where they wanted the fax. She had a dress with a slit up the back almost to her butt and she was showing off her very beautiful legs while I followed her.
When I returned to retrieve the fax before they eventually bought it, she had on a different dress. I was complimenting her when I said I like your dress the last time I was there. She told her boss that I harassed her. Lucky for me that her boss understood that my compliment to her had no intention to harass her. I had no idea that I could blow my deal which resulted in the sale of dozens of fax machines to many CPAs from making a genuine compliment.
It seems as though critical thinking is not allowed. If you get even slightly critical, they will remove your post.
Occam's razor, also known as Ockham's razor, and sometimes expressed in Latin as lex parsimoniae (the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness), is a principle that generally recommends selecting from among competing hypotheses the one that makes the fewest new assumptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
A movement without leadership is a movement that will end with a whimper or, if it becomes sizable, with a bang. Mark my words. I am old enough to remember the anti-war protests of the 60's and early 70's. So much energy, so many thoughtful people, and no direction. In the end, it was the futility of the war and not the protesters that brought the war to an end.
I know you want to be a new kind of movement, but.....like the politicians and corporations you oppose......you must seriously consider the mistakes of the past and avoid them.
The Tea party, as flawed and corrupt as it may be, was able to influence a slew of elections in 2010 because they were able to coordinate their actions. If you remain amorphous, then this will end with a whimper or with a bang.....but it will end.
Decide on spokesmen, craft objectives and not demands, don't overstep, and find a message that resonates with the most vanilla of Republicans and the most liberal of Democrats and you will be on your way.
I am convinced that we do not need to choose. It's a false choice. We can be leaderless (actually I like the term leaderful that someone recently used on this forum) and have focus.
THE INSIDE: We can work collectively from the inside to get the foot of corporatism off our neck, not as an end in itself, but as a means. We can work from the inside in order to buy some breathing room and some time. This will allow us to engage in more important, more far reaching nonviolent direct action that will ultimately undermine the elite's hold on our government. Clearly that's not enough. We also need to put this thing back together again in a way that is true to the intent of our founding fathers. To do this, to work on the inside, we could do things like this http://occupywallst.org/forum/moderating-policies-will-be-reposted-somewhere-pro/ that could result in some legislation that makes a real difference for the movement and real people on the ground in the interim. Again, not a perfect doc my any means. Not an end in and of itself. Just a means to a larger end. Trying to be practical here.
ON THE OUTSIDE: At the same time, all along the way, I agree with others who say we should be working from the outside to expose corruption in the corpopolitical oligarchy and loosen the grip of money on our politics. I personally picture waves of actions, large and small, beating relentlessly against the shore of corporatism.
My point is, each of us, the millions, need to rise to be our best selves and apply whatever skills and talents we possess on whichever side of the great effort we can best serve. As we human beings collectively wake from our slumber and shake off the system that has fed on our flesh on and off for 150 years, we'll begin to feel Our oats and get our groove on.
Once that confidence reemerges, this all gets fun. I think that's where this is headed in our lifetime. I for one feel fortunate to live in this era. Beautiful to see. So many great people. So much to learn. And the process of awakening is energizing. Like the sun rising through the morning clouds warming your face, this movement warms our spirit.
My book is published. You can see it on my blog. Its a true story that exposes government corruption. I'm going to spam this thread and hope you all read my book. After you read this post maybe you will.
Being wrong for 20 years -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I was raised in a family that followed politics and current events. We discussed politics and current events almost every day. I traded stocks since I was 15 years old so economics was crucial for me like golf was crucial to Tiger Woods since he was 3 years old. I knew about Ross Perot before he brought EDS (Electronic Data Systems) public and made a fortune. I knew all about Ronald Reagan and Reaganomics and Paul Volker, and the monetary policy of Milton Friedman because I developed a hedging system for interest rates using Treasury futures in 1979 when I was hired to use that system which worked.
My point is that I'm an informed, intelligent person who has real experience with real money and real profits and losses. When Ross Perot campaigned for being president I worked in his campaign because I knew that when Perot said that, "If NAFTA is passed by George Bush that America would hear a giant sucking sound." I never imagined that Clinton who was financed by the unions would pass NAFTA for George Bush right after Clinton got inaugurated but he did. I knew that Clinton was a liar when he claimed he didn't inhale his pot or he'd have to be the dumbest bastard who ever lived.
I've been waiting for a protest for more than a decade and finally we have OWS. When people finally got so pissed off they began to camp in the park in NYC I presumed they would be eager to do the only thing possible to combat the 50,000,000 jobs that were stolen from them to enrich the privileged. The only thing possible is to nominate candidates ready to defy "political correct" bribes that all politicians take to allow the trade policy, and the tax policy used by our elected government to steal those jobs and replace those American workers with slaves from different countries but primarily from China. It wasn't enough that American business would exploit Mexicans at $2 per hour, they wanted the work to be done for nothing.
If anybody wanted to bet me that I couldn't go to the park and convince the protestors to nominate candidates for the 2012 election to implement their demands, I would have gladly taken that bet. I make lots of bets and sometimes I lose those bets but I win most of my bets and a few times I've bet the ranch because I knew for a fact that I couldn't possibly lose. The only bet I needed to risk was the $18.50 cost of transportation I needed to spend to get to the park 6 times. I've been wrong 6 times on top of being wrong about the response I got from all the people on the OWS forum websites. I was finally blocked by the NYCGA for my arguments on their website by a bunch of liberals who falsely claim they are open to all ideas.
I know for a fact that most Americans aren't stupid. I know for a fact that all conservatives are stupid or they wouldn't be conservatives. Being wrong for more than 20 years is a long time to be wrong and not know it. Being self destructive sitting in the park and refusing to grasp the simple fact that unless a 3rd party is elected to congress that justice is never going to happen from an entire elected body who is taking bribes condoned by the United States Supreme Court; can only happen because they are all in a trance. They can't possibly be that stupid.
Unequal outcomes in income due to unequal efforts of earners. No surprisse. The harder the work, the more you are educated, if you are married and stay married, you will make more money. Those at the lower end tend not to work, work little, and are less educated. You get what you deserve out of life.
The skyrocketing earnings of the very wealthiest get the headlines, but the vast middle of U.S. workers didn’t do too badly either over the study period: the 21st through 80th percentiles saw their inflation-adjusted incomes rise about 40 percent, and even the very poorest 20 percent had an 18 percent increase in real dollars. Mean household income, not including government transfers, rose by 62 percent; median income by 35 percent. (Many other studies have shown a slowing of middle- class earnings growth over the last decade; the CBO report doesn’t cover the years since the economic crisis of 2008.)
So what caused the top earners to get a larger slice of the pie? Here’s what the budget office says: “Numerous researchers have concluded that, on balance, the technological changes of the past several decades -- and perhaps the entire past century -- increased employers’ demand for workers with higher skills and more education. That increase, along with a smaller increase in the supply of workers with higher skills and more education, generated substantial gains in the relative wages of more- educated workers.” This phenomenon, the report noted, has been global.
Looking at the report in conjunction with 2010 Census data reveals some telling distinctions between Americans at the top and bottom. The average household in the top 20 percent has 2.03 wage earners, as opposed to just 0.43 earners in the bottom 20 percent. The marriage rate in the top group is 78 percent, but just 17 percent among the lowest earners. Unsurprisingly, educational achievement is vital: 60 percent of earners in the top group have at least an undergraduate degree; just 12 percent in the lowest-income households graduated from college, and 27 percent are high-school dropouts.
The data do much to contradict claims that America has become a permanently stratified society. A Treasury Department report on income mobility found that half the taxpayers in the bottom 20 percent in 1996 moved to a higher bracket by 2005. As one moves through life, one moves through earnings groups: 74 percent of people in the top 20 percent of households are in their peak earnings years, between ages 35 and 64; fewer than half the people in households in the bottom 40 percent are.
In sum, the vast increase in the wage gap may not be fair or good, but it isn’t arbitrary. And it’s certainly not a conspiracy of the so-called 1 percent. The pattern is clear: The best way to get ahead financially is to be part of a married couple in which both partners have a college degree and a career.
Nobody is obliged to follow that path, but it’s one worth highlighting, and one that government, even limited government, can support. On education, this means better schools, promoting a greater focus on math and science, and ensuring access to universities and jobs-oriented community colleges. As we look to reform the tax code, changes to help married couples, promote progressivity and favor wages over wealth are worth considering.
The CBO report is a far more complicated and promising document than the conventional wisdom holds. Americans did move apart -- but it’s worth remembering that most of us moved up, too.