Forum Post: Where can I find OWS intellectuals ready for serious debates?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 25, 2011, 12:08 p.m. EST by Thrasymaque
(-2138)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
When others and myself criticize OWS on this forum, our concerns are generally met with two types of replies 1) those who disagree and call us trolls or paid government agents, 2) those who agree. Unfortunately, both these types of replies lead to a dead end. Our criticism is very rarely met with serious and properly formed counter arguments which can lead to interesting discussions and new findings. This makes it very hard to "go deep" and learn something new.
I'm looking for a site where I can find OWS intellectuals ready to debate in proper fashion. I know there are protesters who are thinkers and who are willing to debate seriously instead of resorting to ad hominem and appeal to motive logical fallacies. Occupy was started by scholars after all; I'm thinking of David Graeber and the like. A forum without conspiracy theorists and spammers would also be a big plus. I'm not afraid of forum rules and proper moderation of said rules.
Can anyone provide a link to such a forum? If you've been on one, can you give a brief synopsis of how it was and how it differed from this site?
Note: I'm open to forums in French, Indonesian, and English.
Thank you.
Thrasymaque You think that you are Socrates and this forum is in Athens? ----read his profile! Your delusions make communication with you impossible. Suggest you get yourself a Plato puppet and talk to him.
Why didn't you post your tinyurl as usual?
? what is a tiny url- i goggled it but ? please explane.
Only in your bag of puppets.
Your limitless lies, are legendary.
I'm not sure about finding "intellectuals" to debate ... I mean, there's a lot of pseudo-gibberish floating around (on all sides of the political spectrum, and this movement certainly isn't exempt from that dynamic).
I have found the same thing on the opposite side of the coin. I 99% back the OWS movement. Came on here to be part of the conversation, but there isn't one! There was a lively debate over the White House Christmas tree , church and state blah blah blah Give me a break. Let's move on to the issues that matter. You can't even provoke a thoughtful coherent discussion.
Why are you still using this forum and replying to this post if there aren't any coherent discussions on here? I agree there aren't many, but I have had a few with various posters over the last few weeks. I wouldn't be here if there were none. What would be the point?
GeorgeCarlinRules 1 points 2 days ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
I can't speak for him, but personally I'm fascinated by cult-like behavior and/or full-on crackpot nut-job conspiracy theorists. The two are closely related. I find it very entertaining. Scientologists and Sarah Palin fans and far-right extremists and the Zeitgeist people, and any other example that I can identify. This site has been like a zoo. I was handing out awards for a while but it's been a while since I've seen anything really over-the-top.
http://occupy-crackpots.tumblr.com/
I think that the guy who doesn't believe in the economic model of supply and demand like a creationist doesn't believe in Homo Habilis Might qualify, except that I think that the supply-and-demand-is-false meme might actually be more widespread. I'm starting to wonder if it's a common tenet of far-left dogma.
I'd like to debate this structural flaw again. Let's avoid the possible reasons for why this is and try to determine that there is in fact a flaw and then discuss the fix.
Can the NYCGA legitimately not demand a National General Assembly? (I'm offline til tomorrow.)
I don't even think general assemblies are the proper solution to today's complex modern problems.
? don't leave us hanging ?
A bit late, but the forums I have posted on before were... http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/ http://www.usmessageboard.com/ http://www.city-data.com/forum/
Those are all Western-culture standard-type forums. In the end it seemed that people were more interested in "debating" than in serious discussion or change. Or to use a term I am not entirely accustomed to using, those forums seemed to be more about informative discussion and "debate" rather than "dialectic".
I am aware there are a few other Occupy sites with discussion areas but have not tried posting in any of them. For the movement in general, this explains why you may not have seen more intellectual discussion than the level you indicate these forums had:
http://jobcreationplan.blogspot.com/2012/05/need-for-reality-interpretation-in.html
See also (the use of logic to convince people):
http://woweuarchive.yg.com/thread.html?topicId=1151565148&sid=1
http://wowarchive.yg.com/thread.html?topicId=2215432134&sid=1
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-is-using-this-forum-to-link-people-to-/#comment-540913
GeorgeCarlinRules 1 points 2 days ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
GeorgeCarlinRules 1 points 2 days ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
I am prepared to debate seriously (in support of Occupy) on any of the main points of the movement. gchat or email will beget better (i.e., more immediate) responses: dreamingfoward at gmail dot com.
Cool. I'll send you an email soon. I'm in bit of a work rush for the next few days. Do you actively participate in a GA?
Great. Yes, in Santa Fe, NM. More importantly, I've been developing the software that can create the new economy which the movement sorely needs.
GeorgeCarlinRules 1 points 2 days ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
GeorgeCarlinRules 1 points 2 days ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
I personally find the most interesting discussions at occupations and GAs. Of course if you are fundamentally hostile to the movement I suppose you would not be interested in organizing a GA, though perhaps there is one close enough to you for you to visit occasionally.
Personally I find this forum divided roughly into two groups: those hostile to OWS, and those who think they are supportive but who have never been to an occupation or a GA and really don't know much about OWS.
I'm a part time occupier as I have a job and health problems. I come to this forum when I can't be occupying. Mostly I use discussions with opponents to sharpen my own ideas in my own mind and for those who think that the support OWS I strongly urge that they attend an occupation or GA and if none is close enough to attend on a regular basis, to organize a GA in their community.
I'm in Bali, Indonesia. There's no Occupy movement in this country, and I'm not allowed to engage in political activities as per my visa limitations.
I do realize that there are a few people for whom participating in or forming a GA would be impossible, though I suspect that as a percentage of the population they would be very small, Nevertheless, everyone should have the opportunity somehow, to participate in direct democracy. For those who cannot participate or form a GA perhaps building internet GAs around particular affinities would wok. But the point is, it is important to find a genuine way to participate in the movement rather than a bunch of kibbitzers, which is what this list is.
Yes, I can see were debating is getting SO much accomplished. Keep up the good work
I believe that when ever a mass of people take their civic responsibilities seriously that is a win/win proposition. If there are really a great proportion of people, whether they are a small faction or a majority, upset with the mechanization of gov't that speaks volumes about the society at large. Also, from a historical point of view, this type of shit happens every time wars are drawn-out and the economy tanks. I believe the whole ordeal is healthy.
Even the very best forums are represented by pseudo-intellectuals and mental midgets; just look at this string.
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http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-likes-to-give-comfort-to-child-murdere/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-likes-to-give-comfort-to-child-murdere/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-likes-to-give-comfort-to-child-murdere/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-likes-to-give-comfort-to-child-murdere/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thrasymaque-likes-to-give-comfort-to-child-murdere/
I have a blog for this. Let me know what you think.
http://thingssensible.blogspot.com/
OWS is a conspiracy theory. It's one thing to want a serious debate, and another to want to debate only with people who have similar views. While many trolls are labeled conspiracy theorists, so are people who genuinely have facts and ideas about the government.
OWS is a cult, not unlike scientology.
OWS is based on consensus, a pre-arranged consensus that will given later to the minons when they're ready, and have been carefully groomed and corralled.
For now just be part of the 99% and smile, and keep up the facade of brotherhood, your marching orders will be given in good time.
In order to have a club that is all inclusive, of course the club must be non-offensive to everyone, thus all subjects are excluded from debate, as most feminists for instance find topics like 'federal reserve' to be based on penis envy. Because of this phenomenon virtually all topic in OWS is forbidden.
Hope this helps, and welcome to the club, I myself never thought I could join a club that included everyone, ... but then I got a lobotomy and now I'm one of the 99% :)
Federal reseve is a factoid conspiracy from the Ron Lawl camp. Why not start to learn Esperanto?
It's like that in any large group. You always have a few leader types and the ones that want to rise to power with the leader types. The insiders, good old boys, elders,graybeards it's all the same. BUT, maybe that's the natural progression of a group. So maybe it's healthy as long as the leaders are held accountable. It seems unnatural for a group to be sustainable with out a leader.
OWS is an idea and you're part of the 99% whether you support OWS or not. That is because the "99%" is a statistic which few people actually realize rather than some form of association. Statistically, you are a part of the 99% if you are not wealthy enough to evade taxes. Although I recall the actual percentage as 10% to 90%, you are apart of the 99% because it is a statistic. You can't remove anyone from the 99% unless they are statistically 1%. You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to explain to someone unless they are 13 or something.
I get you now. You're an old man retired in Asia. It's starting to be obvious by the way you write. There are tons of guys like you in Indonesia. Most are lonely old men without much family. They got divorced at some point and attempted to get a second life with a younger wife by moving to Thailand or Indonesia, or some other such country. They're usually pretty grumpy like yourself.
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As you know, I have started posting over at themultitudes.org because there are fewer trolls and better tools to manage those that remain. I have to admit, however, that I am starting to feel like I have contributed and gained as much as is possible from forums.
I came to this forum to gain a better understanding of the OWS movement. Rather than rely on media characterization, I decided to come and talk to the supporters. My positions have changed as a result of my discussions here, and I suspect I may have changed those of a few others as well. In the past month, however, I have noticed the discussions are now largely repetitive and of little value.
As you noted in your post, the discussions here tend to to be dominated by irrational positions for and against change, and it's not clear anyone in either camp is willing to engage in reasoned and respectful discourse. Of those that are willing to engage in reasoned discourse, the conversation tends toward method rather than substance. Lacking any leadership and suffering a severe lack of practical understanding of politics and power, these discussions typically dead-end with no real result or meaning. Even when we do agree, we are agreeing among ourselves, preaching to the choir so to speak, so no real movement occurs.
I now spend more of my time outside these forums trying to convince my friends and peers of the corruption in our current political system and the need to accept responsibility for the consequences of their purchasing decisions. I honestly feel I have created more change among my friends and peers than I have in this or any other forum.
Neither I nor anyone else here can support the OWS movement in any true intellectual sense because the 'movement' doesn't stand for anything that can be supported or rejected at this point. There is no hope that the 'movement' will organize and support changes that many of us have identified as core to our ideals and acceptable to a large number of Americans.
I'm afraid the time for forum talk is coming to an end. Sans a leader or a message, all we can do is become leaders within our own circle of acquaintances and hope they will spread the world as well. There's simply no benefit in continuing to rehash points with people who agree or trying to convince those that don't and never will.
"Neither I nor anyone else here can support the OWS movement in any true intellectual sense because the 'movement' doesn't stand for anything that can be supported or rejected at this point."
Well said. I don't think we all agree. That's supposedly the problem isnt it? Progressives , Anarchist, and Libertarians agreeing on anything, what were we thinking and are we expecting?
That's why I have been trying to reduce all our efforts down to two key objectives that are prerequisites to change and have very broad appeal across all political persuations.
Ironically, I have had great success in getting my circle of conservative associates behind these two messages, but have had little success in getting a large number of OWS supporters on board; everyone has their pet complaint, and we seem incapable of unifying behind a broadly appealing message.
oh man, I just had the most wonderful long thought out reply , I hit a wrong key and flipped to another page wiping out my reply .
So here is a less inspired one. lol
Thank you for taking the time to put together these two items on themultitude.
On campaign finance reform I agree. I would also tackel the length of the campaign cycle. Really shorten! In this age of media I see no need for the perpetual campaigning. The media loves it , all the ad $ and 24-7 news fodder. But, it does we the people no good at all. Some are even making a career out of running for office. I picture a blowout debate week. Same time everyday for a week. That give less time for triangulation and spin. I think America would like it better too. Think of how many times you hear at election time I will be so glad when this is over.
On economic power: I have been spend lots of time thinking about worker owned co-ops. If all like minded people , employed and unemployed gave 5.00 think of the buying power. If you set up a peoples union and offered shares for sale or membership levels with no one able to hold more then a small percent of interest and over time everyone buys in at equal levels. Old factories could be bought up cheap , turned energy efficient and used to manufacture something renewable and ethical. Solar , bio fuels, hemp anything . You could do so much with this idea really utilizing all the members individual talents.
I took a quick look at themultitudes.org, but I was a little turned off because many of the posters there are the same as the ones here. I also prefer the format of this forum. I find it easier to quickly read the replies. At themultitudes.org, you have to load page after page. It's a bit tedious. However, I admit I only took a quick look. I might be wrong.
Yes, I agree. The discussions here are turning in circles and there doesn't seem to be much progress. I'm afraid my time here is also coming to an end. It's starting to feel like a real waste of time, especially since most discussions are flooded by those who are only here to call others trolls and/or "agents".
I'll probably try to find a forum to discuss other issues and come back if Occupy ever gets some wind back in its sails, or takes a sharp turn towards a new horizon.
Oh, give me a break. All I hear from the detractors is capitalist cultural pablum. Talk about anti-intellectual.
Really, you haven't heard even one criticism that had some worth? You must think OWS is a perfect protest with absolutely no blemishes, or perhaps you haven't been reading the posts on this forum. I have read many posts which dealt with serious issues and potential pitfalls of Occupy.
And, it's important to note criticism is not always from detractors. It's not a black and white issue. Some people support Occupy, but criticize certain aspects of the movement. It's hard to imagine that Occupy is perfect. I don't really think any protest or movement is perfect.
I agree !
I support the movement. Getting something like this right is hard work. It takes open minds and hearts willing to reach for consensus and work towards that consensus. Personally I thought things were on the right track early on with the 99% Declaration. It's not perfect but it's a start! Better then no start in my humble opinion. This movement is a huge opportunity someone is going to gain tremendous ground because of it. I would like it to be us the 99% and not the 1%. If the movement fails they gain massive leverage. The wolf makes the kill , the vulture reaps the spoils. I hear talk of this or that bunch trying to co-opt or take over the movement. The more help the movement can get the better. If your moving you don't tell your friends hell no I don't want your help, you just want credit for moving my stuff. You say cool grab the other end.
Do I think OWS is perfect? Kind of a ridiculous question question. I don't even think OWS knows what it is yet. Right now, it's a thought convention. It's still struggling with it's anti-capitalist identity.
After decades of hyper-militant consumerism and its attending alienation, and a national consciousness spun from pure capitalist bullshit and mirrors, it is testimony to the American people that they can still see to piss straight, much less recognize any sort of truth whatsoever. Yet, a portion of Americans are beginning to grasp the truth about what has happened to their country -- that it has been bought and paid for by an elite class in a nation that is supposed to be classless. They are beginning to realize that, when it comes to actually governing our country, we are powerless as individuals -- even members of the political class -- and serve the overall will of its true owners. It's been that way so long we've become conditioned to accept it as a natural state, something we cannot change, and do not even know how to question, because, like the atmosphere, it's just there.
If Occupy is currently struggling to form its identity, then you should encourage criticism. This is the perfect chisel to shape the movement. What's the point of accepting only high-fives from other members of this forum? Why call people who criticize certain aspects of Occupy trolls or "agents"? Some of these people make strong points, and they are part of the 99% Occupy so wants to represent. Their ideas might be worth listening to. Dismissing their arguments with ad hominem not only doesn't work, it might not be the best strategy to fortify Occupy.
Sure, but this doesn't mean that Occupy is the right solution and cannot be criticized. Criticizing Occupy doesn't mean not agreeing that there are serious problems in government.
Like I said - a thought convention. Interestingly at a time when the global banking/credit system is going into to convulsions and numerous other global macro forces are coming into convergence . It's only going to get worse - much worse. We are a social-psychological timebomb
I have no problem with rational criticism Though, I see little of that on this forum. Which is kind of a cross section of conspiracy nuts, fanatical libertarians, confused democrats, other random fringe thinkers and a few enlightened.
See, for Americans, self-examination is not just rare, it is nonexistent, which one source of our pathology. Missing from our national character is love of the common good, and our collective civic responsibility toward one another. But if we acknowledged collective responsibilities to the individual members of our society, then we would have to deal with the issue of class in this country. Better to medicate a nation
OWS highlights this and is a much-needed shot across the bow of money-power.
Which is kind of a cross section of conspiracy nuts, fanatical libertarians, confused democrats, other random fringe thinkers and a few enlightened.
This what we call the oxy-moron, .. you call for self-examination, but conspiracy nuts, and. ... libertarians and fringe thinkers are the ONLY MOFU's in the USA that are truly even trying to peel back the onion. How in the fucking hell can you have self-examination in the sense of Tocqueville on the true nature of USA parasitism when you condemn the very people are trying to understand their world view?
Your fucking 'self-examination' is simply OWS-CONSENSUS or even worse its fucking SCIENTOLOGY, where only ElronHubbard thinking is rational, and all else is rational.
My premise is SIMPLE, everything is fair game, ...
How in the fucking hell can anyone have a conversation on discuss an issue when every fucking time some asshole say's liberal, libertarian, .. ron-paul dick-sucker, ... these are just strawmen to destroy the debate.
The enemy is SIMPLE its the OWNER of the USA, its the MEN who OWN OBAMA, its the BUSH-CHENEY machine that wants to kill everyone in the world.
OWS only exists today cuz the MADOFF scam made a bunch of elistist JEW kids POOR, and now they're mad as hell at capitalism, but the sad fact is their BANKER parents ( WALL=STREET) were robbing the masses for 80+ years and nobody cared until MADOFF ( jews started robbing jews )...
Man, did you misinterpret my post
I'm a real anarchist, maybe that's why you find me offensive?
Misrepresent? I just wanted to point out that what everybody hear complains about so much, the people with passion the truthers, ...and RP'er... they are the fucking 99% you fuckheads love to talk about so much.
I hate this rhetoric of "we are the 99%", when in fact the OWS crowd hates everyone and anything that doesn't fit in their narrow world view of ows-consensus
I don't find you offense. Just simplistic and wrong. Also I said MISINTERPRET not misrepresent. That is the second time you misread my posts. Slow down and read things twice.
What do you find simplistic and wrong? Why do I feel I having a conversation with a Bot limited to a 200 word vocabulary, and small sentences? Does your master not budget you DRAM for extensive dialogue?
I agree. OWS really highlights the lack of self-criticism and outer-criticism it is willing to accept. It's nearly impossible to provide any criticism. As soon as you do, you get called a troll or an "agent".
Do you really think for a moment that OWS-SERVERS are not sponspored by money-power?
Chomsky calls it 'manufacturing consent', its quite normal for the USA ownership machine to always control both ends of the debate continuum.
Please - like billionaire socialist financiers are driving occupy. Though, there is not doubt that everybody will try to co-opt it. Heck, I am spreading my radical anti-capitalist views for my own diabolical purposes.
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I don't like to indulge in assumptions like conspiracy theorists. I have no idea who owns and operates the servers and domains for Occupy. I'd like to think they are being paid for by the donations OWS receives. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to believe they are being paid for and operated by US government agents.
Sorry, I don't get a thrill from confabulations.
We already know that OWS is funded by ultra-elite NYC persona's, and that money is banker money by origin, as all NYC money is earned.
OWS is officially a 501c3 non-profit organization ... If true, this registration makes Occupy Wall Street appear like just another fucking corporate machine.... Someone, somewhere is gonna have to sponsor a bill that alters the .... had to pay the taxes on the funds donated to OWS if they hadn't requested ...
They have to be a non-profit organization by law. They received huge amounts of donations. They can't just put that money under a pillow. You should stop with the conspiracy theories, it makes you look ridiculous.
I have been looking for the same thing for some time. I have almost reached the conclusion that the OWS and intellectualism may be an oxymoron.
Not necessarily; I'm quite fond of the movement and more than willing to debate its merits with anyone who asks. What in particular do you have a problem with; do you believe that the movement is working toward the right ends but failing to do so in an acceptable manner or do you disagree with most of the policy initiatives suggested by various protesters and people on this forum?
I don't believe the occupy way is the only way. I see a lot of irresponsibility out there. Look for responsible leaders for the movement. Without them the movement will fail. What is responsibility? Take a look.
It seems to transcend intelligence, though the unintelligent seem to have it in a less proportion than the intelligent. It transcends sex and I find little difference between the two sexes (perhaps the use of the word two is not politically correct in today’s “enlightened” society). It transcends age, though the mature seem to have it in greater proportion. It transcends social standing, though those that have acquired it seem to be much more successful than those who have not; as if acquiring it is a road to that success. What is it? Responsibility!
Let me first qualify what has been said: Many successful people are not responsible. Their success, however, is defined as success because of some physical attribute; as in many sports figures and entertainers. (Not to let Politicians go free either!) If you happen to be somewhat affluent because of the sweat of your own brow you may have it. The chances are that, even if you are somewhat successful, you may not have it at all. On the other hand, we may all have it to some degree.
Responsibility will manifest itself in many ways. It is not enough to be on time. One must be slightly early. It is not enough to be sorry when you have hurt someone. You must not hurt them in the first place. “I forgot” is not even in the vocabulary of the responsible. A responsible person will take blame even when what happened was not entirely your fault. Get the idea?
Can responsibility be learned? How to be responsible in certain circumstances might be learned, but I feel the responsible person is born, not made. The quality is innate, and priorities will differ from one to another without proof. Responsible people are recognizable to one another, also without proof.
A certain “aura” surrounds the responsible person. Even the irresponsible recognize it more often than not. A twinkle in the eye; the angle of the brow, may very well indicate that a person is obviously responsible. It is by these and many more indicators that one responsible person will recognizes another, and the lack of these indicators also marks a person as irresponsible. The number of irresponsible people is multitudinous. They are the great and “Grand” majority. Some indicate that they are the parasites; the weak; the poor. They are those the responsible cannot do without, for whom would the responsible be responsible for without them? Themselves? Hardly!
I'm not looking for everything to come under the umbrella of the Occupy protests simply because that's not possible and that's never how the country has worked. Social change to any great degree may start on the streets, but the work on the streets is really only supposed to create a climate in which people are open enough to experimenting with different ideas and policies that comprehensive action in the political sphere is truly feasible. It's going to take a coalition of different people to effect actual change, and if OWS is going to stay relevant it's going to have to evolve.
That means that we need to be reaching out to the media rather than the media simply finding us. It's already been stated here several times that the mainstream media has a nasty habit of going straight for the sensation, often at the expense of the truth. In our case, this means interviewing the most controversial people they can find. When you watch the footage of protests and the only people you see are idiots, anarchists, communists, tinfoil hat people, or high off their asses you're not going to think much of what you see and you're not going to be particularly happy with the movement in general. This is what's hurting us with ordinary Americans; they don't see that many of us that they can empathize with.
We can change that if we stand up and take control of the image we present to the world and the image of us the media presents to the world. I already suggested creating a PR workgroup composed almost completely of moderates and responsible for giving interviews, going on talk shows, etc. to promote us. The idea would be for OWS to shell out a couple of hundred bucks per member for a suit, a shave, and a haircut, and to require the members of the group to abstain from drugs and heavy drinking while involved. Essentially, if the face of the movement is clean, sober, articulate, clean-cut, and ideally comprised of people who were laid off of blue-collar jobs then it would be far easier for us to get support. If people felt it necessary to put checks on the PR workgroup it would always be possible to staff it on a rotating basis.
On top of that the movement needs a strong political arm, and I think that this is something we should have been experimenting with at least a month ago. Take the case of Charlie Rangel: Despite voicing public support for OWS, Charlie Rangel turned around and voted for a free trade agreement which is most likely going to ship even more jobs overseas and runs contrary to the founding principles of the movement. This is despicable, and a fair number of people on here ought to be pretty pissed. Here's my question to those of you who don't want to see this sort of behavior continue: When's the next round of Democratic primaries, then? And which OWS organizers are in Harlem and willing to locate and get behind a challenger for Rangel's seat? This is why we need our own slate of people running for office. If we want to get real change then we're going to need to offer real people willing to run for office and able to win; we can't trust people like Rangel to vote with their constituents and the general election offers us a choice between lip service and outright hostility. If, however, we unseat Rangel in the primaries, then we can probably put our man through the general election with little opposition and we'll have our very first OWS'er in DC. Rangel's also the perfect one to start with; there's little or no danger of a GOP candidate taking the district, but Rangel himself has been publicly called out on the House floor for corruption and I don't think people are going to forget that any time soon.
The thing is, if we try this for Rangel and succeed then it sends a message to the rest of DC that they have to start taking us into account if they want to keep their jobs. The Tea Party did it, the Populists did it, the Green Party does it on occasion, and generally speaking it works. Citizens United allows us to build and fund an OWS superPAC, partially from all that donation money nobody can seem to figure out what to do with, and use it as a war chest that we can spend on our candidates across the country. Now, we'd obviously not start soliciting corporate funding for it because that goes against everything we stand for, but imagine the power that an independently aligned national coalition of small donors would have to influence this country during elections season. We could throw our people (actual OWS'ers with community organization/activism/legal backgrounds or OWS sympathizers in that category) into Democratic and Republican primaries across the country, and even if we only take one or two seats most legislators will think of what happened to the Republican establishment post-Tea Party and will be willing to listen.
Incidentally, this is not about letting ourselves get co-opted by different political parties; in fact, it's quite the opposite. By injecting our people into their primaries (especially if you have a historically uncontested seat that you can generally keep until you decide to retire) we force the incumbents to take positions on the issues that we consider important, particularly corruption and campaign finance/lobbying reforms. It's a win-win for us. If we win we get to call the shots instead of partisan hacks and Wall Street shills, and even if we lose we will have co-opted the national debate. The game only works if Wall Street and large corporations continue to kick over chunks of their profit to enough politicians that they let things slide and hamstring the regulators. If we can put in politicians who won't be bought, we have a shot at fixing things for the long haul.
Intellectualism is mutually exclusive at OWS.
First of all OWS is 100% consensus, and if you don't vomit out the OWS consensus then your a black sheep. Now folks like Thramayass may think they can shape this consensus thus they stay.
My premise is simple the USA is a failed prison colony post 1700's, today because of its failure to integrate the slaves it make everyone a convict to be managed by the 'owners', and thus today its a mega-failed prison industrial complex.
The USA is too far gone and NOT worth saving.
The debate here seems to be Thramayass only debates for sophistry, not unlike masturbation. Rico wants to change the world.
My opinion is to let the USA die a natural death, and maybe post civil war ( its coming folks and soon ), maybe in 10+ years return and there might be something nice to be found.
I mostly agree with you. Though, when the US falls it will suck the whole world down with it - the revolution will be global.
What fucking bullshit, I really wish this fucking myth would STOP.
The whole fucking WORLD will celebrate when the USA dies,
Read your fucking history, tons of civilizations have collapsed in the last 4,000 years and everytime the world moves on just fine, only the USA will be a miserable fucking place to be, ... everywhere else will be just fine.
I know my history just fine. The west has been in decay since the late 60s. Now it's in its terminal phase. This time civilization collapse is global.
The most elementary fact is that U.S. citizens are just waking up to this fact. It’s not only that U.S. citizens are themselves suffering materially from the decline, and are deeply afraid that they will suffer even more as time goes on. It’s that they have deeply believed that the United States is the “chosen nation” designed by God or history to be the model nation in the world. They are still being assured by President Obama that the United States is a “triple-A” country.
The problem for Obama and for all the politicians is that very few people still believe that. The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority.
n general, the federal authorities are seen as the ones to blame – the president, the Congress, both major parties. The trend is very strong towards more arms at the level of the individual and a cutback of military involvement outside the United States. Blaming everything on the people in Washington leads to political volatility and to local internecine struggles, ever more violent. The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable political entities in the world-system.
We have moved into an era of acute, constant, and rapid fluctuations – in exchange rates of currency, in rates of employment, in geopolitical alliances, in ideological definitions of the situation. The extent and rapidity of these fluctuations leads to an impossibility of short-run predictions. And without some reasonable stability of short-term (three years or so) predictions, the world-economy is paralyzed. Everyone will have to be more protectionist and inward-looking. And standards of living will go down. It is not a pretty picture. And although there are many, many positive aspects for many countries because of U.S. decline, it is not certain that, in the wild rocking of the world boat, other countries will in fact be able to draw the profit they hope from this new situation.
Thanks I agree with everything you have said in historical context, I too have seen the USA collapse of the US dollar since the 1960's and have planned accordingly for my survival, which is why I fled the USA long ago. Now I comfortably wait out the coming civil war to the USA and perhaps return in say 10 years.
I do disagree with ONE point this not global, where I live we'll be just fine without the US-DOLLAR or the US empire, life goes on, and 99% of all I need can be obtained within a 10km radius of my home by bike or motorcycle ( 90cc ).
Yes, for 50 years intelligent people have seen the slow motion train-wreck that is the USA, because of this most people have already sold their USA assets and are divested of the USA. Only the suckers still living in the USA will get fucked. It's already too late to bail, as of this coming year 2012 it will be nearly impossible to get money or assets out of the USA.
I cannot stress enough that when the USA collapses the WORLD will rejoice rather than cry at the demise of the USA. This is because the USA represents HUBRIS and Hypocrisy, and if you don't see this then its only because you live in the USA.
I don't mean to offend but we don't want you back.
if U$A is destroyed, it will probably be by a virus, China would be a good place to spread one too if the person who spread it was concerned about preserving the planet
I thought I was a pragmatist and a realist -
you make me think I'm an optimist.
I'm sure that's not right.
I'm an optimist, I can see light at the end of the tunnel, but the problem here is that crocodiles run and own the USA,
The swamp needs to be dried out and cleaned out so that all the crocodiles are DEAD, then the pond can be refilled and once again young children can swim risk free of death,
The USA is simply too far gone, too many people on the payroll, 56% of US public gets a fucking check, so its vested interest in status-quo, but the good news is the US dollar is dead, will lose reserve status in next year or two, and then the US dollar will be toilet paper and the cops checks will bounce and then USA will implode and the world will rejoice,
I'm a fucking optimist, I can't wait for good times ahead to see the USA toilet to be flush and cleaned out.
The world needs the dollar as its reserve far more than we do; we will merely adopt an isolationist stance, continue to print our money, and rebuild. The rest of the world will eat itself alive, and very few will survive.
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themultitude.org are debaters but might not be up your ally. Can't really sum them up myself. Maybe start your own?
Why do you think they might not be up my ally? I haven't perused that site yet, so I'm asking seriously.
Indeed, I'm thinking of starting my own forum, but I'd rather use one that already exists if there is one. There's no point in re-inventing the wheel, so that's why I'm researching the issue at the moment.
Build a forum for conspiracy theories. Evidently, there aren't enough of those.
Sure, what's your favorite conspiracy theory?
You know me, I like the sky creature one. 9/11 seems to be popular too. You should also include yourself as a topic.
The sky creature one? I'm not sure I know this one. Please, do tell.
ok, I'll give you another hint - there is a really big book written all about Him.
You're talking about God? I thought you were Christian and believed?
Well, I do realize there is not empirical evidence. So, I think, technically speaking, that would make it a conspiracy theory, right?
Not necessarily. There has to be an element of conspiracy involved. There's definitely no empirical evidence for many of the claims of many religions, but I don't think most religious people are paranoids trying to blame everything on one particular evil force, the government in the case of most conspiracy theories.
If you're aware that there's no evidence, then you simply choose to believe and are not necessarily trying to convince everyone that what you believe in is the ultimate truth. I don't have a problem with that.
I see what you mean. But, I think there are some non-religious people that think religion was created for nefarious purposes. People that think organized religion, mainly Christianity I think, does more harm than good.
I've read stuff like the Vatican is part of the Rothchild Illuminati empire or something controlling the world. I don't really know the details very well. I don't pay much attention to it.
This is probably a minority. But I think 9/11 conspiracy theorists are a relatively small group of people too.
Seriously, I think we're on to something here! richard already has a site. I'm thinking he just needs to tweek the marketing. lol.
Well, they started the site to move away from "trolls." And if you get a lot of comments like that then they may think you are a troll too. Sorry to say that. But I would check them out anyway. They could be more open than I think.
Why can't the experts get their stories straight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7ySUrEiVFIM
Forum Post: Iran, 911 and OWS Posted 2 days ago on Dec. 24, 2011, 5:06 a.m. EST by alouis (New York, NY) | edit | delete This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So now it looks like the ground is being laid for some form of attack on Iran, in a serious way. What is almost a joke is how now ten years plus after the event, it's being bruited about that Iran (that's with an "n"' and not a "q") was in real deep on the 911 crime. Oops so yeah that thing about Iraq was a spelling error !?
03.08.2011
Contact: info@realite-eu.org
US Confirms Iran-Al-Qaeda Connection
Weighing in on the debate over the extent of links between Iran’s Shiite regime and Sunni al-Qaeda, the US Treasury Department last week accused Tehran of permitting al-Qaeda operatives to funnel money and people through its territory to the terrorist group's leadership in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Iran’s "secret deal" with al-Qaeda
On July 28, the Treasury imposed sanctions on Ezedin Abdel Aziz Khalil, who it called "al-Qaeda’s representative in Iran," and five other members of his network. [1]
According to the Treasury, the network was "operating under an agreement between al-Qaeda and the Iranian government."
"Today’s action… demonstrates that Iran is a critical transit point for funding to support al-Qaeda’s activities in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This network serves as the core pipeline through which al-Qaeda moves money, facilitators and operatives from across the Middle East to South Asia, including to Atiyah Abd al-Rahman, a key al-Qaeda leader based in Pakistan," the Treasury said in a statement.
"By exposing Iran’s secret deal with al-Qaeda allowing it to funnel funds and operatives through its territory, we are illuminating yet another aspect of Iran’s unmatched support for terrorism,” said Under Secretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence David S. Cohen.
Iran and al-Qaeda cooperate despite the Sunni-Shiite divide
Iranian connections to al-Qaeda have long been debated, as many analysts have insisted that the rift between Sunnis and Shiites would prevent them from working together. [2]
However, Tehran has demonstrated for many years its ability to cooperate with radical Sunni groups. In fact, this is not the first time Washington has drawn a link between the Islamic Republic and the terrorist group.
The 9/11 Commission Report revealed that during the 1990s, while in Sudan, "senior managers in al-Qaeda maintained contacts with Iran and the Iranian-supported worldwide terrorist organization Hezbollah… al-Qaeda members received advice and training from Hezbollah. Intelligence indicates the persistence of contacts between Iranian security officials and senior al-Qaeda figures after bin Laden's return to Afghanistan." [3]
According to the report, "discussions in Sudan between al-Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support - even if only training - for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States. Not long afterward, senior al-Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives."
The report also disclosed that some of the hijackers involved in the 9/11 attacks traveled through Iran: "…there is strong evidence that Iran facilitated the transit of al-Qaeda members into and out of Afghanistan before 9/11, and that some of these were future 9/11 hijackers."
After US forces entered Afghanistan to topple the Taliban regime in 2001, some of the most prominent elements in al-Qaeda's leadership and members of Osama bin Laden's family found refuge in Iran. [4]
In 2003, the US intercepted communications suggesting that these Iran-based al-Qaeda leaders had directed attacks in Saudi Arabia. Washington then asked Lakhdar Brahimi, a senior United Nations official, to convey to Iranian officials "our deep, deep concern that individuals associated with al-Qaeda have planned and directed the attack in Saudi Arabia from inside Iran." [5]
In November 2005, the State Department's third ranking official said the US believed "that some al-Qaeda members and those from like-minded extremist groups continue to use Iran as a safe haven and as a hub to facilitate their operations." [6]
General David Petraeus, the new CIA director, told Congress last year that al-Qaeda was using Iran as a "key facilitation hub, where facilitators connect al-Qaeda’s senior leadership to regional affiliates". [7]
For its part, Iran has denied any links to al-Qaeda. "Iran itself has been a victim of acts of terrorism in the past which have resulted in the loss of hundreds of innocent Iranian lives," a spokesman for Iran’s mission to the United Nations said last week. "Iran has always opposed supporting and financing terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda." [8]
References:
[1] "Treasury Targets Key Al-Qa’ida Funding and Support Network Using Iran as a Critical Transit Point," July 28, 2011, http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg1261.aspx
[2] "Treasury Accuses Iran of Aiding Al Qaeda," The New York times, July 28, 2011, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/world/29terror.html
[3] "The 9/11 Commission Report," http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report.pdf
[4] "U.S. Sees Iranian, al Qaeda Alliance," The Wall Street Journal, July 29, 2011, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904888304576474160157070954.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
[5] "U.S. Suggests a Qaeda Cell in Iran Directed Saudi Bombings," The New York Times, May 20, 2003, http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/21/international/middleeast/21IRAN.html?pagewanted=all
[6] "Some U.S. Officials Fear Iran Is Helping Al Qaeda," Los Angeles Times, March 21, 2006, http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/21/world/fg-iranterror21
[7] "U.S. accuses Iran of aiding al-Qaeda," The Washington Post, July 29, 2011, http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-accuses-iran-of-aiding-al-qaeda/2011/07/28/gIQARUPxfI_story.html
[8] Ibid.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57347506/judge-iran-taliban-al-qaida-liable-for-9-11/
Not only this judge is in on the act, not by a long shot.
http://www.eutimes.net/2011/05/america-now-accuses-iran-of-911/
Iran's president says he believes that 911 was caused by elements of the US government.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/sep/23/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-un-september-11-attacks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4phNuwx8Hs
What does this 911 stuff have to do with OWS? Who should care? Well, if this war fever takes off, forget any reasonable chance of our government addressing the problems OW points to, and forget about any tolerance at all of protest.
21 Comments
You and I agree on the value of respectful, stimulating intellectual debate, as well as many other things. There have got to be things that we disagree about also. I'll see if I can find something.
I'm sure we disagree on many things. Let's try to find what those are and enter into serious debates. That would be great and a chance for both of us to learn something. Giving each other high-fives or being called trolls by those here who prefer to cast ad hominem to proper counter-arguments is a waste of both our time.
Yes, unfortunately for our new project, I completely agree.
Lol!
what's to debate?
the repelican party is DONE
I don't think the republican party was anything good, ever. Bush was not only the worst president in the history of US, but also one of the worst in the history of world politics. This party was done when it started.
I know you accept the hard dichotomy presented by Occupy. I don't. I believe the issue is not black and white. I think there are many things to discuss. I don't believe a political revolution is needed to solve the current problems in the government. I believe with the correct laws, money could be separated from politics. I don't believe we need to throw away the republic and all the decisions that have been made in courts for the last 200+ years.
I respect your opinion that there is nothing to discuss and that Occupy's way is the only way. However, I am certain some feel the way that I do. I think Occupy could become a wonderful movement if it dropped some of its radical ideas and instead of trying to implement general assemblies on each street corner, it would open itself up to the idea of working within the current governmental structure. Perhaps Occupy will never do this, but discussing these issues might birth another movement that will. Who knows?
Debates are always good in my opinion. I would even say they are necessary. I don't believe it's productive to try to shut them down. We can agree to disagree on this issue.
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ows intellectual is an oxymorn.
I'm starting to see this more and more.
I would not count on it here, they can't fathom how anyone could possibly argue with their logic, since they were edumacated by the liberal university system. (Mostly just wanted to test out my TouchPad and wireless keyboard)
I'm looking for the same thing, but I have found it today I took a big shit and looked in the bowl and there the shit said it all I read my turd like 'tea leaves', and it SAID ... Thrasymaque
Have a fucking debate with you Thrasymaque would be like having a debate with a fucking retarded rock. Go fuck yourself.
Thrasymaque is the worst fucking troll/bot on the OWS forum and father to all the fucking sick images. His only purpose here is to drive good people away from OWS out of disgust.
This from the idiot who brought us such intellectual gems as "The USA is NOT a Free Country People - It Never Was and Never Will Be" ( see http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-usa-is-not-a-free-country-people-it-never-was-/ )
Yes, and that's true, what do you disagree about? Do you think the USA is free? I don't
I think the USA is a fucking Nazi Police State.
So RICO thinks that FREEDOM is a fucking joke or what? Or Rico thinks that FREEDOM is playing with his balls in the toilet bowl with his boyfriend Thramymaque?
Even better, a champion of freedom who employs homophobic slander.
This is good to have many different kinds of people. The important thing is that we all here have passion. That's a good place to begin, but we do this for different reasons.
I simply hate politically correct bullshit, so I toss in the potty-talk, why the fuck not, mix it up, so its not fucking boring, and establishment.
But you have a good heart, I know that, so does Thramasqass in his own twisted and warped way :)
So where do you live RICO? DO you live in the prison? Or are you a free man living abroad in real FREEDOM?
I live in America where people like you have the political freedom to be asses, the economic freedom to spend time spreading bullshit, and the physical freedom to walk among us without regard for your contributions to society.
To quote my favorite (now deceased) comic, "America, because 20 million illegal aliens can't be wrong."
I bailed out of the USA long ago RICO, because I know the civil-war is coming and I don't want to be there.
I don't like living in a fucking prison and being surrounded by the common village idiot who is consumed by 18,000 hours of TV in his first 20 years on the earth.
I want to live with people who are self sufficient that can live off their land and have been doing so for all time.
I simply find the current collapse of the USA of the most interesting SHOW to be seen from afar.
Yeah, ... go ahead and be an ASS on the internet in this forum, but watch what you say and wait how long until you get a 'knock and talk' from the local FBI.
OK. I'll wait until the FBI shows up. I will offer them coffee when they arrive, answer their questions, then thank them for their service on their departure. Is their anything you'd like me to pass on to them on your behalf ?
Pre warn them that you have aides before they put their fingers up your ass looking for terrorists.
Upon exit kindly remind them to wash their hands and not put their fingers in their mouth after having fondled your genitals.
You also might want to remove small children from the home prior to entry of said Federal Police, as they're quite fond of fondling small children, which can of course have adverse long term effects on their love of the USA criminal justice system.
I'm not sure why they would care if I have assistants or not, and I reject your slander of the public service provided by the FBI.
Please, spare us the logical fallacy of reductio ad hitlerum. This fallacy is all too present on this forum. Comparing everything to Hitler only confuses matters. The US government has problems, but those problems are very different than those of Hitler's fascist regime.
Godwin's Law is invalid in this forum, my IQ is 173 what is your's Thrasymaque?
It's 3am for me here in Kunming ( China ), what time is it in Bali? Why are you not sleeping? I went to sleep last night at 7pm that's why I'm up early.
It's 4:38am in Bali. I work during the night for two reasons:
I never bothered to do an IQ test. I think it's a waste of time. I really don't see the point, and using it as you do is nothing more than a logical fallacy: a type of appeal to authority. Whether your IQ is 40 or 173 doesn't change your arguments. And, I only care about your arguments. I don't see the point in knowing your IQ.
I'm a physicist, but maybe we should get a bedroom? :)
Spent many years on computer doing computation linguistics and programming, but now I'm quite bored with computing. Spend most my time playing the guitar and other instruments here in Kunming, its quite cold here you probably know now almost 2,000 meters.
What's your opinion about music software? Is there anything that actually works going from MP3 to MIDI files? Can you point to a good site on this subject of music-software preferably free shit. Sorry to be hard on you, I just try to keep you from sounding like a bot all the time and want you to talk real, like a human and not a fucking bot.
I usually get up at 5am and sleep about 8pm.
Why do you bother with USA? You'll never go back will you? I will not, I hate the USA its just one big fucking prison with guards driving around in cop-cars fucking with all the convicts ( everyone ). The frog has been boiled so long in the USA that the patient is long dead and NOT worth rescuing.
You want to talk about free music software? Why?
Csound and PD are free and great softwares. MP3 files? I don't work with these really. I usually work with 24 or 32 bit files recorded at 96 khz. I'm not a big midi user. I only use midi controllers to trigger sounds and control filters in Csound or Max/MSP (a costly software like PD).
I'm Canadian. I never lived in US, so no, I won't be going back. I'm probably going to go back in Canada next year. Why do I bother working for US companies? Because they pay very well and it's easy for me to find jobs in the computer programming market. I work as a team leader.
You want to talk about free music software? Why?
Csound and PD are free and great softwares. MP3 files?
I just want to take real music that I like and turn it into midi, so then I can print the music and learn to play, not really good at playing by ear, you mentioned that you do music/computers, so I figured you might already be doing this. I don't really care what format (mp3...) I just mean digital-sound to midi ( ascii ), I don't care if the sound is digitized in 1-bit or 1028 bits, I just want to know if there's a free way to take real sound ( physical ) and generate ascii files. :)
Don't laugh years ago we used record russian seismic bomb blasts in 1-bit and process the data to invert hydrogen bomb models from deconvoluted dirac functions and this was in the 1950's. Same as is done now to track russian submarines whose props generate unique cavitation data, which allows world wide tracking. Back in the 1950's we used to model a pre-ignition thermodynamic device from seismic activity on the other side of the earth.
Sorry I forgot you were a Canadian, I never asked why you work for US companys, but I understand that is where the money is :) For now,... In the future I think CHINA/INDIA will generate educated geeks for a fraction of what the USA spends and besides who would hire a white guy to do IT?
Some programs might be able to turn a monophonic melody into midi, but I highly doubt a program could turn a polyphonic recording into midi. It's not something I ever do, so I suggest you Google. If such a program does exist, I'm quite sure it wouldn't be too precise.
There are many programmers from India and China now, but most of them aren't very good. Probably because their teachers weren't very good. It takes time to create a programming culture. People who want good programmers that can speak English fluently will continue to hire "white" people like you call them. I'm not white, but I was born in Canada.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Protesters like yourself who just insult others and call them trolls instead of engaging in serious debates are not very good OWS representatives in my opinion. They create the impression that the intellectual level of OWS protesters is very low.
You the KUNT that's been post 10's of 1,000's of pixie pic's ( tooth fairy's on heroin ) on the OWS forum for 3 months, ... is creating an impression of what?
I only post those to deface the posts of conspiracy theorists who are not even supposed to be posting their garbage here as per the forum rules. I don't care what impression it creates, it did help get some of those people to stop flooding the forum with their posts.
What impression does it create when Occupy protesters call other members of this forum bad words? Do you think your way of interacting here gives a good impression of Occupy?
we have had a few conversations and i never found you were all that interested in developing deep discussions especially when things do not go your way. also seems that you do not have the right to spam something you disagree with anymore than another who might do that to you - ignore them and convince others to ignore them and they will go away. a bit presumptuous of you - no??as far as your hatred of conspiracies isn't that a bit silly. the official 9/11 gov't version is a conspiracy - now the question is which one you believe. how about jfk and mlk - lone gunman - doubtful don't you think. the conspiracy to kill diem or promote wmd in iraq. how about this - "GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies" - and then we could start with the smedley butler conspiracy. not sure which of these i believe and haven't done much reading on 9/11 but what i do know is that no one can convince me that those 3 building came straight down without some sort of help - i have seen the pictures at the pentagon and pa and unless they were doctored (certainly a possibility) there is no plane in either location. phone calls etc - the whole story does not make sense as with jfk - hard to believe that someone could plan and execute all of this but i have read enough to know the buildings should not have come down the way they did. now i do realize that them are some out there people on this site david icke types etc but that does not mean dismiss all conspiracies. your turn!
Sorry, I do not wish to talk about conspiracy theories on this page. I'm looking for serious debates.about serious issues. I don't consider conspiracy theories like those promoted by 911 Truthers as being serious in any way shape or form.
a very serious response from a man who wants serious debates? about what i expected -in line with my past experience with you. it is your choice that you don't want to discuss conspiracies (i am not too interested either) but defacing those that do seems childish and beyond serious defense. seems to me you need to take a look at how you discuss serious issues. as to what those serious issues might be - time to read graeber's book and understand chomsky's take on history and politics?
I have been discussing serious issues on many various posts. I have read Graeber and Chomsky as well as many other scholars. I'm simply not interested in conspiracy theories in the least, and I deface them for fun and because they go against the forum rules. (read rule #2) In my opinion, conspiracy theories are dangerous because they foster illogical and "easy" thinking. They should not be posted here.
weak response but that is ok. i normally would not do this but you are the one who seems to like to nit pick. the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory so.... and - "GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies" - so it cannot be that they foster illogical thinking. as to the rules - well i would ask them the same question - david icke is one thing gm is quite another. i must have missed your serious discussions - not sure what they were about - helping people understand the world and what is happening to them is obviously more important than going down the rabbit hole of black helicopters etc. we can stop here - i'll keep an eye out for the serious ones!
You mean the guys that said they wanted a "new pear harbor" to launch a new level of global militarization and reconfiguration of the middle east, should not be suspect when that new pearl harbor happens.
I wonder if, when Cheney was perusing maps of Iraqi oil fields in early 01, in his secretive "energy task force" meetings, if he as thinking of that new pearl harbor.
Bottom line if you don't see the possibility of complicity then you have a serious emotional or logical block in events analysis.
Nope, I don't don't want to debate it either
I see the possibility, but possibilities, even probabilities, don't make truth. That's the problem with conspiracy theorists; they hang on to any possibility as if it was the truth. They misconceive these possibilities for evidence.
Again, I'm here for interesting and serious debate. I'm not interested in hanging on to any and every possibility that is pointed out. The little MatLocks on this forum need to provide more than possibilities if they wish to engage me. They need to base their research on the scientific method and provide proper evidence for their claims. They need to show proof, not raise mere possibilities. That's just too easy.
It's possible that you're a sailor with a wooden leg and that you're being paid by Iranians to post on this forum. That does not mean it's true.
I'll leave you to discuss with the conspiracy theorists and entertain all the possibilities they can confabulate. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking for serious debaters who have something of worth to discuss.
Thanks for your time.
Of course, you can't determine the exact logistics of that day - as many claim to know. And yes, there is a mountain of strawmen, I could easily spend many hours, and have, knocking down on the "truther" side.
That is what an investigation is for, which hasn't and won't ever happen.
Still, the aggregate of "evidence" leads to some type of complicity with assistance being probable. 9/11 was allowed and given assistance to happen with the intent of being a psychological pretext.
Notice all the anti-uprising measures under the guise of the war on terror that were spawned by the event. Seems somebody in power sees our future economic prospects as I do. Heck, if it was not for the fraudulent housing bubble and the rise of the security state we would have had no growth over the past decade and capitalism without growth gets ugly. Which is about where we are at today - on the verge of an epochal contraction.
Chris Floyd said it best:
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1733-darkness-renewed-terror-as-a-tool-of-empire.html One never knows exactly what goes on behind the imperial drapery in the Potomac palaces, of course; ordinary American citizens were long ago turned into Kremlinologists of their own government, trying to discern -- through ceremonial signs, backstairs gossip, and slight deviations in ritualized rhetoric -- just what their masters are really up to. But some cynics darkly suspect that scenarios something like the one sketched out above have already been enacted; for instance, in the "new Pearl Harbor" that struck America on September 11, 2001 – one year after a group channeling the views of future Bush Administration bigwigs (including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Scooter Libby and many others) had openly pined for a "new Pear Harbor" to "catalyze" the American people into supporting their militarist agenda, which included an invasion of Iraq – whether Saddam Hussein was in power or not.
But leaving aside for now the ever-thorny matter of divining the varying proportion of connivance, acquiescence, foreknowledge, exploitation, incompetence and fate involved in 9/11, we can say this as an established fact: It is the policy of the United States government to provoke violent extremist groups into action. Once they are in play, their responses can then be used in whatever way the government that provoked them sees fit. And we also know that these provocations are being used, as a matter of deliberate policy, to rouse violent groups on the "Af-Pak" front to launch terrorist attacks.
Again, I'm looking for serious discussions. I'm not interested by conspiracy theories which are just based on correlations without causations. Any body can connect the dots how they want. Possibilities and probabilities do not lead towards the truth. The scientific method does, and conspiracy theorists know nothing about it.
Right, it's not a scientific matter. Really. Detective work rarely is, nor is the entire legal process of investigating and trying a case. You start with means, motive and opportunity - which is there in spades with 9/11 complicity. Though, I'm not interesting in discussing 9/11 in detail either. So it's a moot point.
I found your images that you posted by the 1,000's to be far more offensive than my words.
Who the FUCK are you to censor us? I never censor you, nor call to have you censored. I just point out that your a fucking boring asshole. You NEVER have anything interesting to say. That's probably what attracts you to OWS, because you know its 99% sheep looking for a leader, and you see yourself as that leader.
I'm an anarchist, and my only premise is the USA is a failed former prison colony. That it's NOT worth fighting for. My intellectual debate is for somebody to prove me wrong.
When posting images, I'm only using one of your movement's main tactics, occupying. I do post serious comments and I do engage in serious discussions with many users here. Unlike you, I don't go around calling others names like a five year old orphan child who doesn't have the guiding light of a caring mother. However, if that's working for you and the other occupiers feel you are a good representative for their movement then so be it. It's hard for me to imagine you will ever gain the support of the 99% with this type of ad hominem based rhetoric, but, what do I know.
See this is the difference between me and you, you are a leader and want people to follow you, like some kind of fucking Marine drill sergeant, first you tear them down and then build them up.
I don't fucking care what anybody thinks. I don't see myself as a REP for OWS, as I hate what OWS itself represents which is BLIND CONSENSUS. I do see a few intelligent people here who want to have a conversation, and that it good.
I do hate ONE fucking thing and that is CENSORSHIP of any fucking kind. So to be terribly honest you pissed me off long ago with your self censorship of others. You like to toss around the term 'conspiracy' with no knowledge of the term. I may use potty-talk, but I know my audience has the attention span of a 5 year old child, but you on the other hand like to treat the audience as if you were a school marm in the 1800's, which I find fucking boring.
My position is largely educational, like the movie "V for Vendetta", some people have figured out there is something terribly wrong with ameriKKKa, but they can't quite put their finger on it,
OWS is trying to seize power by channeling the 99% to their corral. I will never be part of any group, as I believe that ALL groups be definition are Totalitarian.
Lastly, if somebody wants to talk about 911, which I find fucking boring, then find, but who the fuck are you to shut them down? Nobody, your just another asshole in a sea of assholes.
I never censored anyone. People can still post their conspiracy theory nonsense after I post images. Do you wish to censor me? Defacing posts is a form of expression just like any other. It shouldn't be subjected to censorship. You can't have it both ways.
Those people had something to say, but you never have anything to say.
Big fucking difference.
You defaced what they had to say, you know the software here and how it works and so do I, you posted your endless images of tooth-fairy cock by the 1,000's so that good people would all flee the OWS forum.
I have never censored you or called that you be censored, I only point out that your a boring fucking asshole.
Tooth-fairy cock? What are you talking about? And, again, I never censored anybody. The posts I deface are those where people have nothing to say. And, they can still say their nonsense if they wish.