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Forum Post: What Venus Project (TVP) isues?

Posted 1 year ago on March 18, 2013, 8:25 p.m. EST by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I've been trying to think of flaws in the idea lately but have had little luck.

So far all I can think of is the lack of implementation plans and that it will take a long time to happen.

Take your best shot and I'll try to defend TVP.

I said this recently: "I have no fear of it, but many do. I'm not worried about losing my car, home and worldly possessions. They don't define me. In a resource-based economy (RBE) I can have what I need to do what I want, how I want.

People afraid to give up their stuff to save the world are sad souls. They are controlled by their possessions and fear that without them, they are more inferior. Fear is the mind killer and consequent decisions are tainted and illogical."

One last thing to point out, which is a problem with societal perception rather than with TVP itself, is that it could be labelled communism. I personally disagree that it is communism. For example, TVP is purely an economy thing, not a political thing at all. You could say it has economic elements of communism but since you can't go further than that, it can't be labeled communism. You could call it socialism but our brainwashed minds still make us think socialism = communism. I call it a libertarian socialism, am I wrong?

69 Comments

69 Comments


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[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

If the venus project is to ship the Rs to Venus, I'm all in

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[-] 2 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

yummm hexane!

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Well, would you prefer the Venus Project life or not?

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[-] -3 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I had to upvote this too. Maybe more people will realize how the majority are satisfyied with judging by names. Sounds like a huge flaw in society... more interested in surface issue tragedies and incapable of detecting world-saving solutions staring you in the face.

We are on the verge of mass tragedy. The world is nearly toast. Gun laws in the USA are so so insignificant today.

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[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Oh I highly recommend spending about 4 hours investigating. What works good for me is there is no reading required. It's on a few movies and plenty of YouTube vids.

Unfortunately there's a bung of stuff cutting it down, attempting to make Fresco out to be an evil, confused old man. He's getting close to 100 years old!!! A true hero in my opinion, for his work and wisdom.

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[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Fresco believes people are not bad really but over their lifetime their environment/experience determines their actions and behaviors, in all cases (he doesn't say that, but sounds like that's what he believes).

He despises corruption, greed and the waste and destruction they bring.

Those are the primary motivations. Starvation, destitution, crime... these are surface issues with very specific root causes. Jacque has spent a lifetime developing this and is still living through his second great depression. He was a teenager living in NYC in the 1930s, and remembers it well.

He's just like you and me and isn't afraid to say things on live TV like "fucking stupid", "this shit's got to go", "I'm gonna kill me a nigger", and "you're here because your dad's condom broke". You have to understand his sense of humor. Unfortunately people have been cutting clips early to take his stuff out of context and demonize him. He doesn't mean it seriously.

He knows that eventually we'll evolve beyond capitalism and the money-based economy. He's just trying to speed up the process by designing everything from worldwide information systems to transportation (for efficiency and to prevent accidental death), to buildings and cities. He explains how his designs will be garbage compared to what the kids will be coming up with in the future. He knows what he's been working on is not utopia because that can never be achieved as improvements will be continuous forever.

His designs are quite amazing really, but the real deal is the resource-based economy. There is no discussion of how government will be structured, I don't think that really matters to him. He has no control over that anyway.

You can't call it communism, socialism, potential fascism... we'll you can call it whatever you want but you're missing the point completely then. It's nothing to do with government aside from allocation of resources but he by no means intends to have that managed by an elite. The people will install the system that works, now whether we arrive at that by shedding blood and doing time is another story, and equally irrelevant.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I tried to watch the video (which is just audio) on YouTube about the separation but it was too long for the time I had. It sounds like some group was trying to split them up by lying to or harassing people at TVP, or TVP people were threatened/disenchanted by secret Zeitgeist plans. Either way, I was disappointing to learn about that.

I'll try to summarize TVP eventually, and I'm not shocked by your position on it. If you knew as much as I know, or rather understand it the way I do, you would be quite enthusiastic about it.

There is indeed some strange twinklage going on here. I think someone is up to something, and I know it's not you!

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

What do you mean by strange twinklage?

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Just watching the up and downvotes on the replies here. Suspicious indeed.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

All you have to do is get on someone's bad side. And a fair portion of it is from one particular source with multiple usernames.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It was definitely someone with multiple IDs. I recommend an investigation, a good opportunity for a cleanup.

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

It's been tried. He's still here. Why that is brings up an interesting question as well.

The overwhelming majority of complaints and suggestions to the admins fall on deaf ears. It's a shame.

[-] -3 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Judge a book by its cover much? You don't like it because of its name. K well thanks for your input.

And a guy named Fresco dreamed it up, not some secret team.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

The Venus Project.

[-] 2 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

Applying the scientific method and engineering heuristics to economic and political theory is a step forward for humanity that being said the centralization of resource delegation allows for the possibility for a master class and bureaucracy. That is not to say we can't have a system of governance that is a "guided democracy", based on anarcho-syndicalism and technocracy. We will of that I am sure.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Thanks for your input. My understanding is that the centralization of resource delegation is actually not human driven. There will be a network constantly gathering information about resource sources and needs. The ability to match the needs with the most logical source of resources is extremely efficient. Fulfilling all needs to the best algorithmic-determined capacity isn't really a centralization of resource delegation, but in a way it's nearly the opposite: people don't decide what stuff goes where, math does.

Are you interested in knowing more about Departmental Governance, which is a political framework well-suited for the future? I'm sure it fits right in with anarcho-syndicalism, or could be easily tailored to.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 1 year ago

See, this is the part that I struggle with. Do we get to vote on who writes the code and algorithms for this automation, and if not, who is to say the code builders don't become corrupted? Factors have to be weighed for a network to give value to things. And what is stopping human interference from giving more weight to some factors and less weight to others.

Now, if you answer that human interference is impossible, well that just brings up a whole new list of concerns.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Let's see what comes to mind...

No one votes on who writes the code. Students and experts continually analyze and improve that.

There will be no money to corrupt with. The only way to corrupt I believe is to offer something illegal (substances, hookers, etc.), or maybe a higher position in an organization.

Sure, human interference is possible, but with so many people analyzing and improving the systems without monetary incentive, I don't see how someone will fool everyone.

Does that make sense or did I miss something?

[-] 1 points by goglatori (-8) 1 year ago

Most of what is presented by the Venus Project is "futurist" architecture which is actually architecture in the style of the 60's. That's what makes the project look new. It's nothing new at all. The Venus Project is essentially the theory of Karl Marx repackaged with new words and labels. I don't understand why so much people are impressed by it. It's modernism, but we're already at the end of post-modernism. It's an old project that didn't age well.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Thanks for your opinion, I'll be sure to address it after more feedback comes in.

[-] 0 points by goglatori (-8) 1 year ago

If you can, explain what is new with the Venus Project. Karl Marx explained how communism can only work without scarcity, and writer's like Asimov explained how a robotized world without countries would function in stories like "The Evitable Conflict". I don't see anything new at all in the Venus Project. It's one of many utopian city projects stemming from modernity. There's something deceivingly simplistic about it, almost religious. I can see how such a system would quickly become fascism.

The main assumption is that it would be easy to overcome scarcity because Fresco assumes scarcity is created on purpose by capitalism. I'm don't think this is true.

Also, a city similar to what Jacques proposes has already been built and it was a complete disaster. Modernist architecture with it's ideas of modularity and separating living areas into suburbs, shopping areas, etc.. as all the rage in the 60's. That's where Jacques got his inspiration. Architecture has moved beyond this because of many problems with that model. Brasilia was planned in this way, but it didn't work. People didn't like having the city separated into a work area, a living area, and a shopping area. What happened is that they created areas around the city where everything was mixed. Brasilia has become mostly abandoned.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Oh and nice try comparing it to Brasilia, they are not even in the same universe. Remove money from the citizens of Brasilia, transform the shopping areas into get-free-shit areas, and you're getting warmer.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

What's new about it? Well, what kind of technology do you think Marx envisioned?

It is not quite like communism and definitely not like utopia. What's new? Everything all the time if it is not perfect. It's constant evolution, with children designing new structures and systems. ...Problem with this elevator? Replace it with a better system. ...Too close to shopping and too far from school? Design the next city better and modify the existing ones.

Fresco didn't get his inspiration from the 1960s, he got it from the 20s and 30s, when NYC was a real mess. His designs are the best in the times they were designed. His designs are always revolutionary.

Don't get confused with Zeitgeist. They are quite separate.

Watching hate vids on YouTube? Can't you see that some entities are determined to drive Fresco mad and make him look like something he's not? Everything is taken out of context, stopping at opportune moments and displaying a paragraph of hate on the screen without letting him finish. Fresco is a normal human with a simple agenda: fix this shit.

[-] 0 points by AlmondsAreBrown (0) 1 year ago

I don't judge Fresco because of his reputation, his links to Zeitgeist, etc... I judge his ideas from a study of theory. I don't fall into the trap of judging the ideas based on the proposer.

Problem with this elevator? Replace it with a better system. ...Too close to shopping and too far from school? Design the next city better and modify the existing ones.

Nothing new here. We already replace things with better things as they get designed.

Fresco didn't get his inspiration from the 1960s, he got it from the 20s and 30s, when NYC was a real mess. His designs are the best in the times they were designed. His designs are always revolutionary.

His architectural designs are clearly inspired by the modernist modular architecture of the 60's. We can think of Brasilia, Habitats 67, the George-Pompidou Centre, etc...

What's new about it? Well, what kind of technology do you think Marx envisioned?

The comparison with Marx is the idea of a post scarcity society. The technology envisioned by fresco is based on modern ideas of the 60's.

Essentially, there's nothing new at all with the Venus Project. It actually quite outdated if you look at it from the point of view of the field of architectural urbanism.

Honestly, I feel the guy wasted his life repeating concepts that already existed. He just did it with less depth. You should read the works of real scholars instead.

A post-scarcity society will eventually happen. We are already on the way towards it. People have more goods and services now than ever before and it's continually improving.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Wrong, we only replace things if we can afford to, not when we need to, and we do it according to what's affordable rather than what's right.

Wrong, you must have only seen his old designs. Wrong, you can't compare his designs with any of that, because he doesn't design things to be attractive/modern/unique but to make the most sense scientifically. Cost and aesthetic appeal have nothing to do with his work.

Sounds like you assume you are brighter than Fresco ever was. Wrong.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

If you don't know how to implement it, that's a huge issue.

I asked a lot of questions on your last post. None of which can be answered by anyone pushing for the Venus Project. If you want people to support this, you're going to need those answers. It seems like maybe you're doing outreach to discuss. That's awesome. I wish you good luck. Let me know when you discover a process. I am interested.

Also it's definitely communism by definition. Maybe you could say Anarcho-communism. Does the name really matter that much?

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Thanks TM, I do appreciate your comments even if I sound rude. I'm having a bit of fun acting as Defendor.

Ya, the name matters huge when most people run screaming from it due to their ignorant misconceptions and perceptual errors. But there's nothing I can do about that but raise awareness.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

What about Richard Wolff? . He's got great ideas about the future and strategies for the 99%.

http://www.democracyatwork.info/articles/2013/03/a-new-strategy-for-labor-and-the-left/

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Ya!! We need to convert as many corporations to WSDEs asap. That's one of the driving forces behind the Conglomerate.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Exactly. There is some trend in this regard but there is a long way to go.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Popularity is growing at an impressive rate. People are starting to get it.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Gotta keep pushing it. it's the only way.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

TY, I'll check the link a little later (working atm), but I probably have seen it already. I'm a huge Wolff fan.

[-] 3 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Cool

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It's not my project. Please google it if you don't know what it is.

It's gonna take a while to read all that. I spent about 10 minutes speed reading through it, no idea what he's trying to say. Fluffy and hard to get any understanding.

I don't really trust Gore, seems like an agent of elite corruption.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Yeah he sucks.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Who sucks?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

the primary change -
that enables all other changes -
is for the people to own the democracy

we must sever democracy from crapitalism by electing pro-99% candidates

http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

So you have absolutely no problem with TVP?

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

I prefer SG

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Star Gate? hehe. I'm using TVP to get people here familiar with the acronym.

The Venus Project.

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Soylent Green - YUMYUM

[-] 1 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

The real world we have right now.

Getting everybody to do it voluntarily.

Ideally, if we could get rid of countries, military budgets, and everyone decide all in the world should have food, cothing, shelter, right to work at a job suited to them, then it would have a chance to see if it could work.

So it sounds like a utopia. How are everyone going to agree that all people deserve a good life?

Neoliberal say all have right to that which they can legally acquire in a unregulated free market which equals freedom. They think that is the highest good. Which is different from all,people deserve a certain standard of life.

Scrooge vs. Tiny Tim is the best they can comprehend as a fair world.

Opposed to the "it takes a village" mindset.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

But you fully welcome the change?

[-] 1 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

yes philosophically would be fine, no countries, is an improvement, imo. so too cooperation, human needs getting met around world, less disparity.

just my opinion. it seems they would give more free time, and personal choice of occupation. sounds like a way better deal.

possible intermediary steps to get there.

1 http://www.cusdi.org/index.html

` 2 direct democracy

` 3 people discussion here and around world

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Thanks for the link. I've been there a few times now and each time I read a little more. I'm interested in learning more about the modern Boule planned.

Spreading Direct Democracy is a step in the right direction. How do we convince the large segment who are not interested in change?...You know, the people who are are hopelessly enslaved due to thinking they are free? Some of these victims wouldn't seek real freedom if held at gunpoint.

Would you say the Conglomerate is a valuable tool for bringing direct democracy and TVP to fruition faster? It's intended to unite all consumers, employees and employers, and develop a common mindset in the global 99%. This, while creating a more responsible capitalism and usurping the corporate influence on politics. It's a pretty basic concept so if you have questions, I can likely answer.

[-] 2 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

More on Boule

http://www.cusdi.org/rules_of_assembly.pdf

http://www.cusdi.org/alphabetical_index_sub.htm

We only need to convince a majority of voters, change is needed. Its not hard to

convince democracy might be better when congresss has 14 percent approval.

the ones who know more choice is needed in democracy.

Maybe if we reach out to groups too...unions, green party, colleges, workers,

churches, windshields in parking lots or downtown, place flyers on windshields

everywhere.

We know lots, this site can wake people up if they can withstand the onslaught of

forum opinion, maybe even at mall, fairs, set up a booth, or even just hand out flyers

at these places.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/initiative-democracy-pros-cons-can-it-work-in-time/

Also get young enthusiastic people who can popularize it in their demographic.

Almost need a marketing department.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

Re conglomerate

They say businesses want less strings and regulations. Good idea for new business,

or occupy businesses. We ought to do a coop for occupiers, would be another tool.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I missed this comment, not sure if I was notified.

The Conglomerate would basically be a coop for occupiers, in a way. Separate entities all over the place yet under one umbrella. Many shared services, rules, and great communication. Ability to port employment and benefits... that all needs to be worked out but that's the plans.

[-] 1 points by gsw (2697) 1 year ago

if they are nearby, rather than having to drive 20 minutes further, which sort of defeats the purpose, when I have to pay for gas, greenhouse gas.

my preference is for the greenest best for community.

For local shopping I prefer Safeway foods, they have unions

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Ya that's the ticket. When the small businesses in a community realize that their target consumers prefer 99% Conglomerate Subsidiaries, and when consumers realize that supporting them benefits everyone in the community... and when workers find out it's better to work for them and can port things over when switching employers... Or start their own Subsidiaries... k now I'm in fantasy mode.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Before passing judgement on Fresco and TVP, you have to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0UXhdflumE

It might be more important than understanding the plan itself.

He talks about NY city in 1930. He was there. He is here now.

Start at the beginning for sure, but also specifically watch at 21:15.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

OK, so far it looks like there are four main issues with it:

  1. Looks like communism and people are generally afraid of what that means.

  2. Really a subset of #1, people will lose individuality and their worldly possessions.

  3. There is no plan to get there, with issues including getting everyone on board, preparing the machines and supporting the global population during the start-up.

  4. Also a subset of #1, it centralizes resource delegation.

But, it also looks like no one is opposed to the shift and getting rid of money altogether.

Can anyone provide more reasons TVP should be prevented or can never work? I'll wait a bit longer before addressing the 3 issues above.

[-] -3 points by BridgeToTheGroundTeam (-97) 1 year ago

The Venus project is essentially a form of communism, and like Karl Marx stated, communism has one prerequisite: You must have an abundance of goods. As such, the Venus project cannot be implemented in practice before we reach a stage of post scarcity.

[-] -2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I think that's all wrong.

Doesn't communism imply concentration of political power in the hands of an elite? TVP makes no such implication as far as I know. Economically it may resemble an element of communism, but this has never been done before and can't be classed as as such.

Also, TVP is the plan to get past scarcity. You think an angel of the Lord is going to swoop down and fix this? Keep hoping and destroying, fellow capitalist.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Not necessarily. From Wikipedia:

"Communism is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order."

"In the schema of historical materialism, communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where the people are free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions."

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Was it just money that prevented this from happening in the past?

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I'm not an expert but the Wiki article would probably have more info. If I were to guess, I'd say lust for power. I don't think getting rich was Stalin's goal, for example.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Problem is that no "communisms" of the past ever fit into the Wiki definitions. So nothing in the past was ever a communism? A communism never existed as far as I know. (haven't looked into "Pol Pot's regime in Cambodia was the one time true communism was implemented." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120423180255AACtNKh)

People of the world generally only know what has existed and refer to "former Soviet Union, Cuba, China, and Vietnam " if asked what are some examples of communism.

That is what people know as communism. Not what the "idea" of it might be.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Well, see that's probably one part of the problem. If true communism hasn't existed in the past, then it would be a mistake to use examples like the former Soviet Union, Cuba, or China as examples to say "communism is a bad idea" or "communism wouldn't work."

Now whether or not money was one of the reasons for past failures is a very valid question. But if past failures were simply the result of a lust for power, then this same problem could conceivably surface in a TVP society.

Pol Pot would also probably be a bad example. It also doesn't fit the true definition because there was a ruling party. And it didn't turn out so well. See: Khmer Rouge and the Cambodian genocide.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I guess my point is that we ought to change the definition of communism since so many people have the wrong understanding, and they ain't getting smarter. Or just call TVP something else? Pretty please?

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Well, I'm not the one that compared TVP to communism (not that I remember anyway). I think that was Trevor or Thrasymaque (under the username 'BridgeToTheGroundTeam'). And it's probably not a good idea to change the definition of something to suit people's misconceptions. I'd rather schools teach the students the real definitions of things, rather than the propaganda they now teach.

But you did get me curious as to whether money was a factor in past communistic failures.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Oh sorry about that! Now I remember who. I'm just braindead at night these days.

Ya, would like to overhaul education too. Might be possible in the post money system.

Might be power-related but money corrupts the elite's puppets so it is convenient for the power hungry folks.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yes, there was probably a money issue in past failures. There's almost always a money issue it seems. Including education.

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