Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: "What type of Adult Votes for Lesser of Two Evils"... G. Celente

Posted 2 years ago on April 15, 2012, 10:44 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Good point Gerald.

What a pathetic country this is indeed.

122 Comments

122 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 6 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

I am more worried about the 20-30% who vote for the greater of two evils and are even willing to vote against their own self interests to do it. This includes the Tea Party and several other organizations.

The country isn't pathetic but too many of the people are.

[-] 4 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

"What a pathetic county this is indeed." (?) Tampa?

The "type of Adult" who Votes for the Lesser of Two Evils is a loaded and misleading statement without followup or question without a question mark.

Assuming it's a question, it has to be clarified that "Evil" refers to flaws, and the framing of the question suggests that there are choices for Adults to Vote for that/who are evil free, or don't have flaws; which suggests that there are choices that/who are perfect. But perfection does not exist, anywhere. So every vote is a choice of lesser evil, providing every voter had all the facts relating to the choice. And then there is the morass of voter intent and voter morals. In short, to the extent that it is a "Type," Every Adult who Votes is the answer.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

are we supposed to be voting for good?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

too bad good is a subjective term.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

it's good when people help each other

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Helping other people can be considered getting gov't out of the way so the private sector can employ them and not spend their time paying scores of taxes. At least that's the argument. Are we to label that argument evil so we can believe our argument is good? Again, good is a subjective term. but helping your fellow man is good, it is just that "helping" is also subjective. Some would say a hand out is not helpful, where as making a person self sufficient is very helpful. Though i believe this line is just a political talking point made by those who don't need help, it is still a concept that resonates with a lot of people who believe they are helping.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

helping is not subjective

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Let's keep voting for better and watch much much better evolve.

Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

There's no question here. Its a statement.

[-] -1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Equally flawed.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Politics is a journey....

Let me know when you are where Im at...

[-] 2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Tampa!

If YOU Don't Vote, YOU Don't Count!!

No more keys for GOPs!!

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

If you vote for one of two warmongering parties, you are fine with the innocent people dying.

There are more than two choices, ya know. Just because the rest of the morons will flock to one bomb dropping corner or another bomb dropping corner doesnt mean you have to join em.

[-] 2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

We got here by decades of voter negligence, it will take decades of voter diligence to get us up on high ground. But there will always be problems and mistakes. Right now we are suffering from the ill-doings of the truly evil whom we have let takeover to a very disturbing degree.

We need to vote those against the people out.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I would fire them all and replace with no party affiliations only.

[-] 2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Not the world we live in.

Don't show up late in the game and bitch about the uniforms!!

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The world we live is bullshit, and thinking like that is a GUARANTEE that nothing will ever change.

Things dont change because people accept the status quo. They get pissed off. They get active. They hit the streets.

Glad you love the wars so much. Sell out.

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

I guess UR just too far ahead of me.

I'll keep trying to catch up.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You're record is skipping. You're record is skipping. You're record is skipping. Tape a dime to the tone arm.

This is getting close to spamming, you know.

You're one trick pony, is about tricked out.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

The current tactic of the tools of the 1% is to push this BS incessantly, for one thing to distract us from their effort to propogandize women against their completely correct disgust with the Republican Party.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

This guys gone boop shooby!!

If you disagree with him? You're a "war mooongering sheep."

It's about the only thing he says anymore, except for some vague support of libe(R)tarians.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well, aren't all the usual suspects blubbering on this same theme now to one degree or another. Karl Rove calls them talking points and we heard nothing but for the 8 nausiating years of the Bush installment. I guess some people feel inherently worthless enough that they'll sell their souls darn cheap.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It felt like when the "systems corrupt, don't vote" thing fell flat, they fell back and came up the "war" angle as a way to pin it on the Dems.

They completely ignore the fact that we've been messing in the Middle East all way back to the 50s, if not WW II.

There's a history there that's being ignored, and it's a complicated one that would be hard to address in a venue like this.

The repercussions of a fast, unprepared pullout would be vast.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

They make themselves so obvious by all jumping on the same topics in unison the way they do, and they all have the same underlying message - "Whatever you do, don't vote Democrat."

That in itself should be enough for us to see their game.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Shit, I saw that 6 mos ago.

You and me ain't no spring chickens around here........:)

You should have been here this afternoon, I even got shadow banned for a while. It was rather busy.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Yeah, damn, who lifted the rock?!!

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Maybe the teabaggers put out a new training video.

I should check out some of the wrong wing web sites, to what they're cooking up, but I always feel dirty afterwards, and I hate giving their sites the hit.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Asking the people to rise up and create something of their own is spamming?

You are a tool for the establishment, arent you? You little sell out.

Go back where its safe and let the real adults put themselves out there for change. Besides, the media needs minds like yours to keep going.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I think you should go back to your safe little teabagger hole and keep hating.

It's what you do best. Other than repeat yourself, without a lick of understanding.

Did you check out the link I gave you on Rick Scott malfeasance, or do you vote for the teabagin' A hole.

I can't believe you stuck up for him, and have the F'in nerve to call me a sellout.

OK; back to you.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Please refer to other thread

[-] -1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

I agree with hchc. Its a statement.

Without knowing exactly what Mr. Celente is thinking, I suspect he means that a lot of people are being conned into thinking that the one party system is a two party system.

What would Obama do in term two? He wouldn't have to worry about being re-elected that's for sure... but would that mean he would start taking away more freedoms and renewing more Bush policies? or would that mean he would start keeping good on his election promises? who knows. You never can tell when you're dealing with a liar.

[-] 4 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

In an election, like so many since 2004, where Republicon candidates and policies are so widely (and WISELY) detested, cheating (Voter Suppression and Election Fraud), conning (hate and lie propaganda and promoting the both parties are the same theory) and discouraging (legislative sabotage, filibustering and do-nothing) are the only ways GOPers stand a chance.

Just one difference: Republicons voted against the Buffet Rule, Dems voted for it. More Evil prevailed again. Elections have consequences.

Register and Vote! Register and Vote! "We the 1%" NOT What They Wrote!!

[-] -1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

You know one thing I really like about Celente? He knows how to spot an obvious trend.

If take a step back and look at 1980-2012, the tend is pretty obvious. Its been a steady downward spiral that is now culminating with massive unemployment, and local law enforcement which obviously preparing to quell inevitable social unrest.

Voting one way or the other, it might delay the trend 4 years, but only because the democratic "brand" positioning requires that it position itself more to the apparent left of the republican brand. In other words, they are less flagrant, and they fuck things up slower; but the end result will be exactly the same.

[-] 4 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Since 1980, the RW (mainly Republicons) have conducted an all out Blitzkrieg against America, and while the country and Americans have suffered the terrible consequences of this dramatic move to the right, the greed-addled few in the 1% who employ Republcons, have prospered wildly.

Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You and your anonymous prophets. Who the hell ever heard of the guy, and who cares.

[-] 0 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Anonymous prophets?

He's not a prophet, he's been accurately predicting financial trends for like 30 years. He's not anonymous either, he's quite well recognized in his field.

Plus I don't need him to point out the obvious; and the trend is blatantly obvious to anyone with a whiff of economic know-how and political history, and it ain't gonna be reversing itself. There is a reason local police departments are getting fancy new toys like sound cannons, tanks, and microwave guns...

How about that new 2 Billion dollar data center in Nevada Obama is building? I thought the TSA was doing a great job feeling up old ladies, why do they need that?

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Actually, Obama isn't building it, the Federal Government is building it. Obama isn't a king in control of everything that happens in Washington. He is just a figurehead as long as the Nutcase Right has control of legislation. Strange how you blame all this Republican legislation on Obama.

He should veto this garbage, but then he would be blamed for gridlock by the sold-out, corporate-owned, American-garbage, right-wing media nut-fucks.

[-] -1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Ya know, I usually agree with most of what you post on here, but not this one.

That's like saying George Bush was not responsible for what the Federal Government did post 9/11. Double standard.

Obama should quit being such a wuss and use his veto and other administrative powers, someone who stands by and lets it happen is no better than someone who makes it happen.

Who cares what he is blamed for? and why don't the republicans have to worry about being blamed for anything?

Seems its only democrats who worry, and I strongly believe its just a convenient excuse. "Oh.. I would have liked to do something... but you know those republicans, they would complain about it." No shit, that's politics; but he should stick to his principles (if he actually has any).

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I believe you are about 50% right here. The Democrats haven't been real Democrats for a long time. Changing that is the first order of business in my opinion. What we are trying to do will take time, patience and a willingness to do whatever's necessary to wrest control of our government back:)

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6622) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

to me first order is get rid of the GOP, otherwise they take advantage of all we do

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

EXACTLY! They HAVEthe power! THEY are the system!

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Agree. I hope OWS inspires some of them to be less like republicans.

Patience is a virtue they say, but I'll have to admit for someone like me who has had ideals similar to OWS for so long... this sort of rally against government corruption thing isn't something new to me, government corruption is something I'm quite tired of already... :p

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I'm with you there! It's damned hard to have patience, but it looks like it will take an all out push for a few years to get this done. I'm holding out hopes that May 1 will change the equasion. Lets hope for a HUGE national strike!

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6622) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

seems you need someone to point some stuff as you completely missed that real wage increased under Clinton, it's people like you that give no credit when people do some good, that cause less good to be done, why don't you either open your eyes or tell the truth

[-] 1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

I liked Clinton, but he was also responsible for the deregulation of the financial system. I appreciate he was the only peace time president also, and I found him really amusing. He also tended to veto anti-union legislation.

I would take Clinton over Obama any day. However, he still contributed to the slow decline, it just didn't happen as fast. Things are not going to get better without a real change, just worse slower.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6622) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

some of that is why I was for Hillary, but we are where we are

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

These four men REQUIRE that you vote for Obama

John Roberts +
Antonin Scalia +
Clarence Thomas +
Samuel Alito

If you don’t believe them,
…….ask Newt Gingrich or John McCain about Citizens United
OR
…….ask the family of any soldier killed in Iraq about bush v Gore

OR

Are you afraid to
……tell me why supreme court appointments make no difference ?
……tell me why ( roberts + alito ) = ( sotomayor & kagan ) ?


If you cannot see the difference between the democrats and the Rs –
.……and believe that President Gore would invade Iraq,
…….or that President Gore would NOT read his PDBs –
…………..………………………………………………..you are blind


If you want to do what Davis & Lee failed to do
……………..……………………………………….…….you are crazy


Just because Scalia and Thomas take koch brothers money – you don’t have to


[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

There's a cadre of people here, that just don't want to believe that. I know this alone, is reason enough.

I wonder why they think it doesn't matter?

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

I have posted this question many times - NEVER got a straight answer.
I suspect that some are paulist libertarians who hate all government
some or Rs trolls
some are Obama haters who can't accept an African-American as their "boss"
some are liberals/progressives who are fed up with Obama's compromises after electing him to be the "progressive king" who had the power to do anything. These are the people who saw Obama as their last best hope and who are letting their anger at him become irrational votes against him. .

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

Is it not more irrational to vote for the dems again, after they took power and just continued the anti-democratic rethug policies, and even expanded them with more drone murders, sweeping new powers for the police/state, and they continue to push the corporate bankster agenda. How does voting FOR that make any rational sense at all?? Sure it is the lesser evil when compared to the 'other party', however; the lesser of two evils is still EVIL!

The point people are making when we say not to participate in that broken-assed system, is that when you vote for the lesser of the two evil options, you are supporting that evil.., The lesser evil is only provided for the illusion of choice.

We suggest; turning your back on that system entirely and beginning to build alternatives. You can not vote this two-party-pendulum-swinging system out of existence, as they will never present that option. However, when enough people ignore them, stop voting, stop paying taxes, etc., and actively construct democratic consensus democracy, and alternative systems,. the real democracy will win, not the elite ruling by myth of democracy, but an actual functioning participatory democratic reality.

I know many people so fear change that they will opt to stay with the old abusive, oppressive, and destructive gov. like an abused lover, the pain they know is preferable to the unknown. This is no surprise as one of the main functions of the old system is to paint people as the rulers in a classic case of transference, the media and gov. would have you believe that we are all like the 0.1% greedy and out of control. However, reality is that the vast majority of people are very reasonable, and do not have the inexorably greedy mindset of the 0.1% this too is a lie, meant to keep you from seeking change.

Vote for obama if you must (he is the lesser evil), just do not expect any positive change, as none will be forthcoming. (but still evil!)

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Who's "they?" The Tea Party Republicans won huge in the last election. What are you even talking about?

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

Obama had the house AND the presidency for two years, and failed to get anything done. Was that an accident? No, there is no intention of change, none.

They always talk a good game, and then they take power, and like frodo's ring, they are controlled by power,. not the people. We will never get democracy from a system that does not promote it. The system must be changed if we are to experience democracy first hand.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

How?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6622) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

how many filabuster were they? we have to crush the GOP, that's the first step

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

This may be the important thing of all. Infecting the State courts has been a priority all along. Keeping SCOTUS as unbalanced as they can is necessary to take the public eye off that fact.

A rather effective strategy, that has helped the (R)epelican'ts get around State constitutions in order to serve their agenda.

In how many States do they even have to declare party affiliation?

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

Wow, a lot of fallacies here. Where should I start?

"If you cannot see the difference between the democrats and the Rs – .……and believe that President Gore would invade Iraq, …….or that President Gore would NOT read his PDBs – …………..………………………………………………..you are blind"

Who would have thought during his campaign Obama would go into Libya and escalate the war in Afghanistan?

"…….ask the family of any soldier killed in Iraq about bush v Gore"

No one has died in any of Obama's continued and new wars? I'm not talking about just Americans either.

"Are you afraid to ……tell me why supreme court appointments make no difference ? ……tell me why ( roberts + alito ) = ( sotomayor & kagan ) ?"

Obama wants to do away with the balance of powers between the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive. I would rather have some lousy, conservative judges over an Obama dictatorship.

" If you don’t believe them, …….ask Newt Gingrich or John McCain about Citizens United"

Ask Obama about the NDAA, his votes for the bailouts, and his continued dismissal of the Glass-Steagall Act as real reform for the economy. If all you are concerned with is Citizens United, you ignore the myriad of other corporate/political problems that Obama has supported!

[-] 2 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

And Obama ate the Easter bunny
And Obama is a Muslim
You did not answer my questions "Are you afraid to ……tell me why supreme court appointments make no difference ? ……tell me why ( roberts + alito ) = ( sotomayor & kagan ) ?"

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

There's two other very important branches of government that write laws and enforces them; one of them is occupied by a madman and the other is occupied by traitors and cowards; and your only focus is on the Supreme Court. Are you mad?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

When will the president & congress be gone? When will the "fab" five be gone - 20 years minimum Thanks for asking - yes -
I'm mad at citizens united & bush v Gore and I'm at all of the corporate power the activist judges have given to them Do you think bush v Gore was correctly decided?

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 2 years ago

I think Gore is a stooge of the Club of Rome and Bush was a stooge of the neo-cons... We didn't have much of a choice in 2000.

I'm more pissed about Obama getting the Democratic nomination over Hillary, even though that's in the past now too.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

"What kind of adult votes for the greater of two evils?"

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Or votes in such a way as to allow the greater "evil" to prevail?

Isn't that sort of like doing nothing?

Isn't that what allows "evil" to prevail?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well said . . . "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." That is why the evil here are desperately trying to convince us to do nothing (other than squabble amongst each other).

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I been trying to do stuff.

I went to OccupyDetroit over the weekend and had a tasty ox roast dinner........:) Bought a fashionable T shirt and gave a donation.

I hope to attend some GAs over the summer, and maybe a march or two.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Great! I would be more personally active if I didn't live somewhere so remote, and will be the first chance I get. I figure right now the most effective thing I personally can do is contribute here. I'm getting a bit past my prime, but I still hope to get the chance to march. I used to do a lot of protesting. Lots of times there were just three or four of us out there. It sure would be great to go to a protest in America with real numbers of people. That is empowering.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

WE all do what we can, my friend.....................:)

That's how it works. That's how we move it forward.

You've been a fine supporter in this forum, that's for sure!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Thanks, and you're right; we must encourage everyone to "fight" this "Plutonomy" as CitiCorp called it, in whatever means are at the individual's disposal:)

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Come down to Charlotte for the DNC. Things are not going to be pretty.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Cool. Tit for tat. Give 'em hell harry.

But don't let it backfire on you.

Make it big, make it loud, but most of all make it peaceful.

Hint, The sound cannon, they are rumored to be planning to use, I believe, uses a constant tone. Find the frequency and cancel it with a resonant frequency. Put your MP3 players to work for you.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

No tit for tat. They both get bashed.

Nice tip on for the sound cannons. I'll be doing my research.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Sorry, I sometimes confuse my pre-packaged adages.

Try this one.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Good. There are plenty of us that are going to leave Tampa, after bashing the shit out of the Republicans, and heading to Charlotte for pretty much the EXACT SAME THING.

Fuck em all.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Charlotte will be a different scene then Tampa and the RNC. They have been keeping their plans quiet, while Tampa has been very open about the preps they are making:

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/baybuzz/category/bay-buzz-tags/2012-republican-national-convention

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I happen to think the difference is on a different order of magnitude.

Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Kennedy, Roberts

versus

Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Breyer, Kagan

That's not simply a comparison of greater and lesser evils, or of legislation that can be revisited with each successive congress, but of relatively good and absolute evil that will last a lifetime. When Ginsburg retires in the next term (as well as scores of federal judges) what kind of judges, serving for a lifetime, will be appointed depends on who is in the White House. I don't care if he's a complete douche as long as he doesn't appoint more like the first five.

Doing nothing to guarantee that won't happen is the doing nothing that you cite. Activism alone won't do it, since there is no viable 3rd party candidate running in the upcoming election. Pulling a lever for you-know-who is the only way for the time being, even if it means holding one's nose - tightly - while doing it.

And it does not take away from doing more, much more. (And doing much much more is critically necessary to ensure we never have to be faced with such a choice again.)

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Like him or not, there's a lot more at stake here than just the Presidency.

Like I said before, ALEC has already bought off most of the State Supreme Court justices.

Don't be distracted by the federal circus. The States are where they are moving the hardest.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I agree that ALEC is pure evil incarnate. And the states are indeed under their sway. Keep in mind, though, that you are really talking about republican states almost entirely, though there is some overlap.

If you have read my recent posts, you'd know that I advocate for STRONG local and state level action.

But I couldn't disagree with you more about the critical importance of the federal level. Who decided Citizens United? WHere do contested state court decision end up? Who decided that the death penalty is constitutional. Who decided that women can't sue WalMart for sex discrimination, (and effects all class action suits that protect workers in the future) who decided that strip searches were OK for jaywalking or parking tickets? Who overturned Arizona's public campaign financing laws? Who made affirmative action illegal in state and private universities? Who is deciding the legality of the Affordable Care Act as we speak? And the split on these, and most other critically important, life-changing decisions that are also made by them has been CONSISTENTLY along party lines. These aren't only local (or state) issues decided at the local level. These are both local and national issues decided by the Supreme Court.

So yes, the local and state levels are important, but the federal one is even more so.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

A person who already has the greater of two weavils and is trying to complete the set?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21335) 2 years ago

How about a pragmatic adult?

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

people who think logistically and not erratically vote for the lesser of two evils. Let me ask you one. Who believes that the term lesser of two evils actually means voting for evil? What type adult still believes in the term evil? Really, evil, believing in that is like believing in Santa. You do realize that Santa is a human concept to get kids to behave?

The lesser of two evils metaphor just means that there is a low

probability that a third party candidate will win. It does not mean there are evil people controlling our lives. They just got their priorities wrong. And that is where voting for politicians who stand a chance to win becomes crucial. Unless you can promise at least a quarter of the vote for your third party candidate, you are pissing in the wind. But please, prove me wrong, I'd love it. seriously, I would.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Both of us are pissing in the wind. You vote for a warmongering party (either one of them) and I dont.

Neither one of our votes matters. Your guy wins, and we all get fucked because he's part of the time, tired two party bullshit.

Mine loses because the fuckin people are too dumb to wise up to the tricks and do something on their own.

The difference is one of us is endorsing war. The other isnt.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I'll give you that. You make a valid point. So while i ensure Republicans don't get reelected or elected, you can vote for the third party candidate. Who knows, maybe this will be the year that the third party protest vote hits critical mass.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

It wont be. A quick tour around most political chat rooms shows that the people are still more concerned with attacking whom they dont vote for, than holding those they do accountable.

Now the average joe on the street, they are dying for something new to come along. But unfortunately, they arent usually the type to jump into politics.

[-] -1 points by betuadollar (-313) 2 years ago

Obama' s wars are internal. But every bit as evil.

[-] 2 points by forjustice (178) from Kearney, NE 2 years ago

This is a fun graphic for showing how little difference there is between Obama and Romney. http://www.voterocky.org/rocky_barack_mitt

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Rocky is on point.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

What type of person would get Nixon elected over HUmphrey because Humphrey wasn't "pure" enough?

What type of person would allow the Supreme Court to be packed with fascists because they disagree with some legislation?

Maybe someone who values their own self-righteousness above the greater good. Maybe someone who isn't intellectually formed enough to see shades of gray and can only perceive black and white. Maybe someone who insists on creating false choices and doesn't understand that one can vote to hold off the greater evil and STILL be an activist pursuing real change at the same time.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Would like the list of voters, because a ton go for the socialist party and the socialist workers party. They vote for what they believe in. Same for Green. And the Reform and the Libertarians.

We could have a good debate, good governing in this country if you fuckin morons would stop voting for the two fascist ones.

God sheep like you piss me off. You only fuck it up for the ones that try to get some change.

[-] 0 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Couldn't have said it better.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

These fuckers on here are dumb as shit. It didnt used to be like this when this thing started. This was a great place to discuss out with the old, in with the new, what should it look like, etc.

Now its just fuckin hacks that are simply going to vote for the duopoly. Cant fuckin stand it.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

yes i know im very sad about this i wish people were more open on this forum

[-] 3 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

It was freakin great when it started. Its a mess now. Its freakin embarrassing. I cant believe the amount of fear and pro-establishment nonsense.

Just more divisive media shit. But I can assure you it wasnt always like this.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

It'll probably get worse the closer to November we get.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

it will get beyond worse

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Don't get discouraged, though. The end result will be worth the pain (I hope).

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

i just want one thing and that is money out of politics.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

That's a perfect start. We have strayed a bit, haven't we? Need to get back on track.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

yes we have i really think we we just do that things will fall into line.

[-] 2 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

i know even though it says i joined late i've been following this movement since day one.

i want it to go back to just getting money out of politics and none of this other bullshit

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Me too. Its hard to be against money in politics and then see all these people who claim to be too, going and endorsing one of these two jack ass parties that is already bought out.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

i know its pitiful to see people do that

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Yeah, and a lot of good splitting the Democratic vote did, too, didn't it? Helped GW Bush get into office. Would we have gone into Iraq without him? Congratulations. As you said on another thread, "Bombs Away."

And by the way, most of the ten thousand people on the Brooklyn Bridge were regular voters, who are part of OWS, and who will not be stupid enough to assist Romney in gaining power. Keep alienating the masses who support OWS, and are a part of OWS. Make sure it withers insignificance, and complete ineffectiveness. Keep working to make sure this movement fails.

Extremists like you piss everybody off.

Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts, Kennedy. Make sure they are joined by many more like them. What an effective activist plan for change!

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I havent been on here much over the past three months, and sheep like you seem to be multiplying. Im not arguing with you anymore.

You vote for who you want to. Do your thing. Have fuckin fun you sell out.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Have fun strengthening the fascists and killing OWS, you elitist.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

They are both fascists you dumb motherfucker. How hard do you have to get fucked to see that?

What the hell, I have never seen a dumber motherfucker that cant see hes part of the fuckin problem. Go vote for em. Endorse em. Fuck it, go fucking campaign for em. bombs away you fuckin sell out.

[-] 0 points by dan1984 (108) from Cumberland, MD 2 years ago

So Obama has supported Occupy? I'm just asking for clarification of what you posted. Or are you saying that both parties are worthless?

[-] 4 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

No, one party is worthless, the other is fucking dangerous. And no is is asking OWS to support anyone. But I AM saying that encouraging the defeat of Obama - for all his sins - is encouraging the win of much MUCH greater evil. The difference is not even close.

Judge Ginsburg is about to retire. She is already in the minority in the Supreme court. But encouraging tactics that will help a Romney gain office, one is making sure of more people on the court like Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Roberts, or Kennedy. Instead of a (bad enough) 5/4 court, split precisely along party lines, we would be left with a 6/3 court or even a 7/2 one if Breyer joins Ginsburg in retirement. It would take a LIFETIME to change that, if ever. Currently, 55% of federal judges are registered Republicans. That can change either to 70% or a far better 40% in the next few years, depending on who is in office. And if you look at their actual rulings, you would see that in this area - perhaps the only area that remains - there is a real and significant difference between the two parties. And only one is clearly fascist in terms of the courts.

It is not the only reason I oppose helping a Romney, Cantor, Boehner, win by default, but it is by far the biggest one.

Presidents and congresses come and go. Their policies and laws change relatively quickly. But federal judges serve lifetime terms, and can't be booted out of office due to dissatisfaction.

THat said, I absolutely DON'T suggest that real, genuine activism shouldn't continue and escalate. It must. Fundamental change is necessary, and that won't happen via current party politics insulated from the anger of the people. But abdicating the process, or pushing an agenda that insures even worse lives for everyone WHILE WE CONTINUE AND STRENGTHEN our engagement in activism is simply irresponsible.

[-] 1 points by dan1984 (108) from Cumberland, MD 2 years ago

Okay, I understand. Thanks. And I didn't say that OWS needed to support someone. I was just going to say that Obama has been relatively mum about OWS.

[-] -2 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Quite a tirade. You do realize you missed the whole point? Or is it on purpose?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

No, this thread is a continuation of another one, and you missed the earlier discussion. Hchc started this one in order to make a strong statement to get allies for his position on the other thread. It was a tactic, and a pretty intellectually dishonest one.

[-] 1 points by SPAR23 (25) 2 years ago

So what other option is there?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Keep doing what we are doing in Occupy. Direct Actions against the powers that be. Promos to draw attention to the people's role in it, usually rampant blinded consumerism. And sooner or later something will happen and we can form something that is truly representative of the people.

Im not sure what that will look like, but its no great conspiracy that these two current powers are in bed with the banks and corporations, not us.

Promote third parties and individual candidates outside the duopoly. Promote being wise with ones money. Promote that things are changing, and people need to decide what side of the fence they will want to be known as sitting on.

[-] 0 points by Dell (-168) 2 years ago

what "County" do you live in ?

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Oops, well thanks for noticing. It got past me and probably everyone else.

I dont see too many here not jumping on a mistake like that :)

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

What I meant to show in my initial response was how poorly the "Statement" or "Question" was made, and what pseudo profundity it was awarded.

Loud and clear red flags of the Right. Half-baked, clumsy with malapropisms, non sequiturs and misnomers. A tossed rightist cliche and talking point salad. But there is a point where Rightists and Anarchists meet.

I wonder if they know who Sinclair Lewis was?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Shule (2030) 2 years ago

Why get hung up with voting for evil or really evil? My suggestion is go out and vote for whatever is on the ballot. It's fun, and it is truly better to have to deal with evil rather than really evil. But solving the issues here in the U.S.A. takes serious civil action way beyond merely casting a ballot. That is what we all ought be focusing on rather than getting hung up on a vote.

(May I suggest reading "Guerilla Warfare" by Che Guevara)

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

You are right. And that is why I always liked the saying "There is no political solution to a cultural problem".

The entire country is reckless with their cash, and no amount of legislation is going to make things better when the only things we value are consumer goods.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2030) 2 years ago

Yes, I can't help but to resonate the message more. We're all hung up with the antics of the 1%, the banks, and the quisling politicians, but before we can address that, and the reason why they get away with what they do, is first doing away with the irresponsibility and selfishness in ourselves.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Someone down pointed me for saying that we value consumer goods too much, and until we figure out what matters, nothing is going to change.

This is the ignorance we are fighting.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

maybe it's a way to justify evil like war as good

[-] 0 points by Demian (497) from San Francisco, CA 2 years ago

Yup

[-] -1 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Sometimes I wonder... voting for the lesser of two evils just means less freedoms will be taken this term, there might be a few less wars this term... maybe not.

If its all going to crap anyway, maybe just speed the process along and get it over with, then when Mittens runs the country into the ground people will be ready for a fresh start...

[-] -1 points by Zombiefighter (-16) from Ione, CA 2 years ago

Very well stated. Unfortunately too many of the so-called " independents" believe in it. And that is why nothing is going to get any better in this nation.