Forum Post: What plans do OWS have to deal with ILLEGAL immigration?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 2:53 p.m. EST by TXprogressive
(0)
from Austin, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I am sure this will garner wonderful (hateful) comments but I hope it also produces some thoughtful dialogue. I realize there is a lot that goes into this issue and is quite dynamic but nonetheless a HUGE issue that must be dealt with humanely.
I see it as a long-standing tool used by all parties to maintain the status quo: big business reaps benefit of slave labor-politician benefits from business bribes-politicians make policy that makes illegal immigration/exportation of jobs easier-politicians reap more benefits from bribes ectectect.... all the while we pay for it (literally and figuratively) then get demonized as a racist for opposing it. Anyone have any humane solutions for illegal immigration?
Absolutely nothing. It's pretty damn obvious it's concerns lie elsewhere. Are there real problems there? Sure. Do many of the people participating and supporting #OWS have opinions on it? Sure. Does #OWS need to take some sort of official stance on the question, and on every other question? No. Not at all.
Do you ask every organization fighting aids what they're doing about malaria or hunger or pollution?
Nicolas....you're an idiot. OWS is for open borders. It's in the "demand" list. BTW, America has the Stanley Cup too. ha ha.....Go back to Canada douche bag.
They are human beings like everyone else. Turn them legal. Simple as that.
Here is where I am not in agreement with OWS (pretty much everything else I agree with.) In an ideal world open borders would be a wonderful thing. However, we can't turn a blind eye to the millions upon millions of people pouring into this country. creating a sub-class that is eating away our Government programs and benefits, not to mention that they are one of the top reasons for hospitals closing. Yes, illegals can be hardworking people. I don't agree entirely with the whole idea that they are taking jobs that American's won't take. That just doesn't fly in this really bad economy.
Open borders in not a good idea because of the drug war going on in Mexico, our neighbor to the south. Do we know who is getting into this country? Forget about people who just want to work here, and think of the criminal element. Drug lords, drug runners, cartels, murderers, rapists and child molesters. Not to mention, the increase of kidnappings and murders that have gone on in border towns and cities here in the U.S.. Our citizens are in jeopardy because our borders are not being secured. I say all criminals and anyone involved in the drug trade who came into this country need to be deported immediately. We can't afford to have them pouring into our country.
For all others, we need to work on finding a fair and humane solution. People should not becoming into the country through the backdoor. We can't have a underclass of people who are being taken advantage of by those who embrace cheap labor. However, there are too many illegals in this country and they definitely are causing a strain on our resources.
Let's keep this discussion civil and let's be open-minded. Please don't name call and accuse others of being a racist or a xenophobe as this happens every time this subject is mentioned (in other forums). It is counter-productive. There is a real problem with illegal immigration in this country and their needs to be real solutions applied to this ever growing problem.
Ask any farmer who is trying to bring in his crops in a state with new immigration law on the books.They are losing crops to spoiling because they can not get americans to to the jobs that the Illegal who have fled those states do.
A guest worker program may be the answer (three years and a chance afterwards to become a citizen or go back to their homeland.). However, we can't ignore the American citizens who are out of work. Illegals just don't work on farms, they are in other industries as well such as landscaping, restaurant, construction to name a few. We simply can't put people who came in through the back door first. The American people should have a chance to work those jobs, should they choose to. Actually, I think that the time is coming where no one would refuse those jobs. The economy is in the toilet right now, so you have a lot of hard up people out there who will work those jobs. Once again Americans citizens come first.
Deport all illegals and make them come into the country legally through a sponsor program and working visa system. Make it illegal for all companies to hire illegals.
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I would say enforce laws that make illegal to hire undocumented workers. If you cut of the demand for undocumented workers, you remove the incentive to immigrate illegally.
This is actually a good discussion.
One key to making America great again is to get the economy growing. That will be much easier if we have population growth. The easiest way to achieve population growth in the near-term is with immigration.
We should allow those already here some sort of a path to citizenship (though we don't need to make it easy). We should increase legal immigration. We should control our borders, and enforce immigration laws.
If we do the above, the only people we'll be keeping out are those we don't want. AND...if you're here illegally and commit a crime you get DEPORTED. If you want welfare, unemployment, or any other gov't service, the answer is NO, unless you're a citizen (and there's a path to become a citizen).
Have you heard that "x" many jobs created in a certain industry results in "x + n" (i.e. a larger number) of overall jobs created? That's because the more people there are working...the more jobs are created...a "virtuous cycle".
More immigrants means more jobs for everyone.
We need to provide training/re-training to ensure Americans are the highest-skilled workers in the world...then we'll have nearly-full employment, and rising real wages.
Well, ultimately, I would like to see population growth, from a combination of increased birth rate and immigration. The best solution is to create high paying careers for highly educated Americans and working class careers for the uneducated illegal immigrants. Note, that the majority of illegals are illiterate, lack a high school education and are thus not competing directly with an MBA, like me. My joblessness has to do with corporate employment being an insider who you know affair, outsourcing and companies seizing on efficiencies, while not investing in new commercial enterprise development, in the USA. Illegal aliens, as US Citizens will ultimately join unions, send their kids to University and their kids will end up in white collar careers.
You may want to look at this before you form too strong of an opinion. http://economyincrisis.org/content/illegal-immigration-and-nafta
It bothers me when I hear people saying that immigrants are "stealing" our jobs. The truth of the matter is that most immigrants that come from Central and South America are performing jobs that nobody wants. Anyone can go out and get a shit job in America, but most people don't want to unless they're desperate, so hearing people say immigrants are stealing anything just boggles my mind.
We do have to have some control over who comes into America, but what do we have to gain from sending immigrants away who are educated and non-violent? I don't claim to have all of the answers. but it would be cheaper and less intrusive to allow immigrants without criminal records into the country and set up programs to assist them in finding jobs, homes and education for their children. And this goes for immigrants whose only criminal record is illegal immigration. Roughly half of the immigrants sent away have no criminal past and a large number of the criminals have only illegal immigration on their records. Whenever you label something a criminal act it only promotes more crime. Many good people will do bad things just to try to get to America. Lets allow them to come here if they are law abiding people and give them some short term assistance not to be viewed as a handout, but as an investment to the health of our nation. Guarding our borders has shown over and over agian to be wasteful, expensive and increasingly inhumane.
Are you kidding us, ddigs? Number one, I can't believe anyone still believes that Bush bullshit about immigrants only taking jobs we don't want. You apparently haven't been looking around much. Let me give you a couple facts from someone on the frontlines. Here in the Midwest, at least, just about anywhere you go, if there is any landscaping company doing work, every laborer you see is Hispanic. Most construction companies now, when there is work, Hispanic workers. Even places that are supposed to use union labor are subcontracting portions of the work out to Hispanic labor. I'm in construction. If you think Americans would refuse to do landscaping or construction work you must have your head buried in the sand (or somewhere). You're nuts. It's one of the reasons I can't get a construction job, even though I have many years experience. It's 100% about the companies increasing their profits. And don't tell me find something else, I have to, obviously. At lower pay and reduced (or no) benefits. It's total BS that they only do jobs we won't. I will say this though. The Hispanics I have worked beside (construction) are damn good workers, they work hard, don't bitch, and will put in as many hours as you want them to. So, it's not a racist thing. You should also understand they send a good portion of their earnings back south, it's not kept here in the US to help out our economy.
"And don't tell me find something else, I have to, obviously."
I would never tell anyone that. You invested are large portion of your life to your career and it's difficult for anyone to change a career. I think you might be mistaking me for one of those people that say, "It's your fault you lost your job and are poor." That is not my stance on the unemployed and lower class citizens in America for the system has let me down as well. You also said in construction there are many immigrants that take American jobs to save money to the companies. I certainly can't dispute that this kind of stuff happens, but is this only a result of immigration or is it because companies are allowed to give immigrants lower pay? I think that is a bigger issue to be address than only focusing on immigration alone. And while I completely sympathize with your situation and I personally know people that got screwed like you, a large majority of immigrants do not end up going into the high paying skilled-labor jobs. I feel it would be much more cost effective to take the ability away from the companies who give immigrants unfair wages. If they were required to pay them the same wage that you make, there would be much less people in the situation you're in. Once again I never said immigration should not be addressed, but keeping immigrants out is not possible and fighting it is extremely costly and counter-productive.
I understand your position, but my problem isn't with them working here, it's just that, especially now, there's only a finite number of jobs to be had. There's not enough jobs to go around. Last I heard, there were, on average, something like five or six applicants for every available position. Except in a very limited number of fields.
I agree there are not enough jobs to go around, but immigration has very little to do with that. On the other end of the spectrum even if we sent 200 million Americans away, business would adjust and take away jobs just the same because there are less people there to buy products. Do you think if we just got rid of all immigrants, businesses would magically provide enough jobs for everyone. No, they would just eliminate jobs, decrease wages or increase prices accordingly to remain as profitable as possible. Immigrants will work a lot of these jobs for much cheaper than Americans, but if they weren't here, many of those jobs wouldn't exist in the first place because.
Very few immigrants are educated, though most are indeed nonviolent. The educated class in most Central and South American countries live very, very well and have no reason to leave. Even middle class homes in these countries often have housekeepers. Educated people usually stay put, it is those who have nothing that often come here.
Sure, I do not live in a bubble and I agree the majority of immigrants are less educated. But, like I said above, there are plenty of jobs in America that require no education and are not being filled by Americans. The only people that will accept these jobs are immigrants that come to this country. I feel that it is more beneficial to fill these remedial jobs than spending billions to lock them up and send them back to their home countries. But if we allow them to work here and focus on making sure there children receive a good eduacation, then the next generation will be more capable of filling the growing demand for skilled and technical labor. Time and time again whenever the goverment tries to go against human nature, more problems arise than the original problem they were trying to remedy.
I think we should abolish the word illegal, and all of our problems with illegal immigration will go away.
I was actually hoping for some real ideas about this issue. Here are some of mine from an admitted novice's POV: 1) offer a certain amount of time for all illegal immigrants to obtain either citizenship or proper visas at free or reduced fees then begin enforcing the laws(deportation?) 2) if employer wants to hire illegal immigrant then employer should have to pay a factored amount to govt for resources absorbed by non-legal worker or taxes not realized due to illegal status of said worker. 3) no social benefits to anyone who cannot prove proper citizenship/status in country. 4) do not allow illegal immigrants automatic autonomy b/c they have children here. Some have been here for years w/o trying to obtain proper documentation to legally be here under the guise that they have citizen children and their family won't be split a part. If you have children here then you should be forced to either become a citizen or decide to take your family w/ you. OR children born to illegal immigrants should not be given automatic citizenship. 5) cannot register children for public schools unless parent/guardian can provide proof they are here legally. 6) cannot obtain driver's license or state id card w/o proof you are here legally and paying into the system which you are utilizing (roads ect) 7) if there is an encounter w/ law enforcement (say in a car accident for ex) and proper documentation cannot be provided there should be some sort of verification process to ensure you are legally here and who you say you are (i cannot just provide a fake name and address w/o proof of who I am w/o being verified)
This movement seems to address a lot of things I'm concerned about and do agree on wrt improving our nation yet nobody (not even the current political talking heads) want to address this issue now. This is an equality issue, big business issue, govt issue, and national issue that has to be addressed humanely. I am not against immigration and people wanting to make a better life for themselves or their family but what happened to wanting to immigrate to America to be AMERICAN? And why am I striving every day to give my family a better life and ideally a better society (I do believe we all must pay or contribute to be the best if that is what we want) when others are handed that "better life" on my dollar?
If occupy wall steet doesn't represent you in their claimed 99%, sign here.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ows99percent/
Yes they do, if you are an illegal alien, Little Ceasars Pizza will have no problem hiring you. Most of the employees are illegal aliens and if your wondering why you can't get a job and are occupying Wall Street its because corporate companies such as Little Ceasars Pizza hire illegal aliens. Pure and Simple, E-Verify thats our cry!!!! Spread the word, if American citizens are to survive we must Take our Jobs back!!!! Financial aid for illegal aliens???? Can I become an Illegal Alien?? Im a second class citezen to a mexican who used to be a farmer now he works at Little Ceasars Pizza were I should be working. Some say they take jobs no one wants, They are full of it! I would love to work at a Pizza Joint, I can hand toss a pizza, and mexicans cook pizza like quesadillas with rollers(dont get me started on the other fast food joints they screwed up). Its true. Report all illegal activity to I.C.E, I.R.S., or simply call corporate Little Ceasars and ask them why they continue to aid and abed illegal aliens to work in this country illegally.1-800-722-3727. Next time you have little money and buy a pizza that taste like crap because the illegal alien has no idea how to make a pizza and cant even speak english, do what you should have done a long time ago and stand up for your rights take your jobs back! This land is our land!!! My father immigrated legally and has been working as an indepenant contractor for 30 years with no help and does not have his hand out, to my father charity is like breaking the law, unless your are starving. Let an American go to Mexico illegaly and see what would happen.
Maybe this is the annexation of the southwestern states from mexico, maybe lazy fat Americans should be dominated since they will not fight for their own livelyhood. They only care about their I-Phone or FaceBook account or Facebook on their Iphone while driving to Starbucks and worry about their 99th week of unemployment approaching.. We are currently facing the first hand effects of the deteriation of society, wich may very well be annexation from Mexico.
In 10 years the current legal population will be replaced with Mexicans, simalair to how other small countries have been shut down and replaced with puppets of the 1 percent.
The baby boomer generation is twice both gen. x and y. Why is this? Because the rightful owners of this country are being weeded out.
Capitalism only works when new players ,poor players begin to contribute as workers "Modern Day Slaves"(pyramid scheme, hence the pyramid on the dollar), you may ask well why weed out and replace certain factions threw abortion and incarceration)? Because a big fish can only eat small fishes, as many self-made millionares are on the rise to name a few Oprah, P-Diddy, Jermaine Dupri, Jay-Z Master P, and a few other sports figures have made their own rise to conglomeritism if such a thing exist, is it called imperialism? Many say some of these corporate giants are kingdoms who fear uprising kingdoms, and pay no tribute to their subjects.
Many would say that the U.S. never departed from King Goerge, and the revolution of 1776 was merely a ploy to create second class citizins once again such as peasants, but with a twist. They would give each Peasant or Citizen the idea that they could get ahead threw hard work and persiverance.
I fear we are merely subjects of King Corporate America, and are being replaced with peasants from a region that does not resist or will for equality.
The Nobel Class is the 1 percent. Occupy Wallstreet, and chant "You won the game of Monopoly and have all the properties, why should we the 99 percent continue to play?
"Game Over"
NICE! Read this, this is the truth
It depends one what the population (self represented) decides to do with it.
I personally say kick them all out and i am traditionally a lib.
People, illigal immigrants generally only get jobs that most Americans wont do. They are not stealing anything from you unless you think them getting hired at McDonalds is stealing your job. There are practically an unlimited amount of minumum wage jobs and nobody is fighting for these jobs. These are the jobs illegals get. They are not stealing jobs in engineering, teaching, nursing or other professional careers. If illegal aliens come to this country, are law abiding and have an opportunity to work, you and I are benefiting from their service by taking the jobs we don't want. I know that is an inhumane way to look at it, but it's no more inhumane that locking these people up for victimless crimes. I wish people would a little logic and stop just repeating things they may have heard. We definitely have to have some border control, but the way we are going about this just produces more problems.
That is not true. Americans are spoiled. Let them starve a while and see if they do not take the low paying jobs. And no their isnt an unlimited amount of them. I dont know about where you live but min wage jobs here get 30 plus applicants at least none of which are illegals.
They are stealing good paying construction jobs. Construction jobs range anywhere from min wage to $50 an hour. And they are stealing these. They just havent made it into the other industries yet.
We dont want to lock them up. We want to send them back where they came from. Let them find jobs in Mexico or come here legally.
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I can't believe this can possibly become law. How would this cut unemployment when you bring more people into the U.S. and then fine employers for hiring them? That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. And from points 1) and 6), the logic is completely flawed. If it's more difficult for employers to hire and therefore more difficult for people to get jobs, how is that going to have no cost. If people have no legal way to make income and are cut off from public services, the only way they can survive is by making money through criminal endeavors. This will not save money but instead will cost billions for the legal system.
The only thing I can agree with is that this would drastically save money on border control, but at a huge cost to individuals autonomy, billions needed for the legal system and public services. I know I'm preaching to the chior, but how do our lawmakers come up with this shit and do they possibly believe it will actually work? This is why there are so many conspiracy theories out there because lawmakers consistantly do the wrong thing and the only way it can be explained is to think that they are only acting in there own self-interests.
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"Far too xenophobic for my blood, but when jobs are in short supply, Americans wanting Americans to get them is only natural."
Most immigrants come to this country because they are poor and have very little opportunity in their home country. They are mainly taking jobs that Americans are unwilling to take. Unless you are looking for minumum wage jobs, these immigrants are not cutting into your job market. Allowing them to work allows them to have some puchasing power and at the same time will provide tax revenue. There are no benefits to criminalizing them and keeping them from working, but I can think of an array of negative effects and a few of them I listed in my earlier post.
This is absulutely insane. If you don't allow people to have any opportunities for survival they go crazy. You would do the same. It's in our best interest to stop trying to control people's behavior and instead set up a system that keeps these people productive. Don't think that these social programs are just handouts, but the are investments to the future health of our nation. If we keep these people working and their children educated, everyone benefits. Many social problems are a result of people not having anything and this proposal on immigration policy is only going to take away more rights and freedoms, while costing a shitload of YOUR money in the process.
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Your are so misinformed and are making a straw-man arguement. Not one of these things listed are a result on Alabama's immigration policy. I feel like we need to stop arguing because we seem very polarized on this topic. I can understand that from your perspective, it's more important for you to survive than someone else. I completely get that. But while these policies claim to get some Americans back to work, which is debatable, people's lives are being absolutely destroyed along the way. I'm sorry, but from my perspective, some people getting displaced from their careers is not nearly as detrimental as pounding people's lives into the ground just because of their nationality. While you got a shitty deal by losing your job, in time you will be able to recover. But the policies we are putting in place give these people no chance in hell at all. You and I are no more important to the world than any other person.
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