Forum Post: OWS Goal: Destabilize America
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 18, 2011, 11:26 a.m. EST by workhardplayhard
(33)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Many people have said why not make "Get money of out politics" the primary demand of OWS. But that's not what this movement is. You would think it's abundantly clear and logical to make that the primary demand, and most Americans would get behind that. But this movement has not made this their demand. Just think about why is that, and think about what they REALLY want. You might think this sounds fringey/out there, but the puppet masters behind this movement want to destabilize the US. Having a message that unites the country is not what they want, they want the country to be divided and for Americans to fight amongst themselves.
Take a look at what's going on in the Middle East. The Arab Spring was disguised as a fight for freedom, but what's really happening is the Islamic powers are rising in those countries and they want to install Sharia law. Then you have Iran and Israel, where war is about to break out imminently.
All this happening at the same time is just too much of a coincidence. Where were these anti-Wall Street protests 2 years ago when the bailouts were being handed out? The Middle East is becoming increasingly more radical and dangerous for Israel, while its most powerful military ally, the US, is embroiled in domestic chaos. Has any other civil movement in recent memory ever refused to name their demands? Really people, think about this.
Give OWS a break, these are mostly young adults who realize our system is on a oneway path of total destruction but are not sure how exactly is the correct process to fix it. They are not alone since I don't think anyone knows how to fix it, let alone stop the money laundering going on in politics and the elite. It is up to the older generations to step in and help them to problem solve all of these issues that got us here today.
This generation of young people is going to down in history as the one that everybody bailed on them by refusing to help them. It is the generations that are now in their 40's, 50's, and 60's that are responsible for what is happening today in society. We are also the ones responsible for this generation since they are our children that have grown to be young adults with a bleak future in their lifetime..
Well yes and no. Those of us in our 50's have lived in the shadow of the baby boomers. We have had our but kicked for trying to get them to stop their insanity.
Finally, people are fed-up. The OWS moveement has been thirty years in the making.
I wrote this to mean in the "gray" area of thinking and not in the "black and white" as literal meaning.
I don't think you sound "out there". So I hope you won't think I'm going to sound "out there" either!
I think this movement is taking advantage of peoples legitimate frustrations by trying to be everything to everyone. For the purpose of, I don't know what. But I do not believe the ptb of this movement have any intentions of working with or through government to affect change. Otherwise, we'd all be in DC talking about Campaign Reform right now.
The best I can figure out so far is that this movement is currently being "run" by anarchists. To create as much confusion and chaos as possible. (That much I'm pretty sure of!) Why? Either 1) because thats what anarchists do or 2) The anarchists are being used as cover by the "puppet masters" as you call them to a) destablize the country or b) some other agenda 3) The anarchists themselves have an agenda that they choose not to reveal until they feel they can gather enough support ( Direct Democracy, since I've been here, I think is pushed very hard).
There are so many legit protesters, yes, everyone is screaming for get the money out of politics. But the OWS ptb is preventing, I believe, from allowing this movement to progress forward with that, or anything else.
I think something is up. The "leaderless" and "horizontal" structure that OWS uses, claiming that it promotes consensus building (how convenient, sounds like a benign reason!) , or something like that. This is suspicious also. Because it sort of prevents anyone or anything to understand what is going on. And effectively prevents the movement from moving forward.
Connections to Middle East- I just don't know enough about. Certainly is possible, I just can't speak to it.
Oh but there is a single coherent message. It is a very powerful message. That is a key fact of why we are anonymous.
I believe the movement has a powerful message. It has had the power to knudge the national debate. Get people talking about lots of important issues. Both good things. Make change with government. No. Is that single coherent message actionable? Through government? No. This movement will not do that, not in its current form, not with its current leader. Highly unlikely.
The movement has already created changes in government behavior. Take a second look.
Somewhat agree. But I do not believe that was the goal of the movement/original intentions. It is more like an unintended result of the protesters legitimate issues.
Tell me when substantive legislation passes. Perhaps that will happen if this movement changes its current anarchistic form and leader. I don't believe it can happen unless this movement changes.
I'm beginning to agree with this assessment more and more. What do we about it, without losing momentum and reversing the gains? How do we wrest control? How do we change the movement but not (allow the anarchists to) discredit it?
If we're not intelligent about this, we just prove the Glenn Becks right, and give them what they want: more demoralized progressives.
Before Glaucon/Thrasymque gloms on, it should be pointed out that this differs from his propaganda in that April can draw a distinction between the organizers of OWS and the nature and constituency of the movement itself.
I am starting to come to the conclusion that the best thing to do, no matter what the "hidden agenda" is to split off from OWS. There is already a group who has done this.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Because I do not have much confidence that OWS will allow anything other than pushing for Direct Democracy to happen. Or they will simply continue to do nothing but cause confusion and disruption. I do not think that OWS will allow any of the other possible solutions to happen. The stuff that the majority "seems" to want, Campaign Reform, Financial Reform etc. I say "seems", I do not have hard proof, just my general sense!
No matter what the "hidden agenda" is (Direct Democracy, Destabilization, anarchy for the sake of it,) splitting off is the best solution I can come up with. It works well for any of these scenarios.
Will this cause a loss of momentum? yes, most likely. But we've waited this long to do something! A few more months to get something else going is a small price to pay to get some changes made in our government.
How do we wrest control? I do not know. Storm - in a figurative sense, not the literal sense - the GA?? nonviolently of course. I think the Working Groups must all be full of people who don't want to really get anything done, I won't label them! Because I'm sure that there is some diversity in there.
For the GA and Working Groups - either they purposefully are not getting anything done, or they are the most inept people on the planet. There is just no nice way to say it. Sorry!
It is difficult because OWS is so prominent. The 99%Declaration is still a relatively small group. But, hopefully, in time more people will start to see the issues with OWS. And the 99%Declaration will grow. Or maybe there will be another group that splits off.
I don't want Glenn Beck to be right either!
I was afraid this would be your answer. I don't think I agree that we should split off.
Here's my thinking. I was just reading a piece from the arch-conservative Hoover institute about FDR saving capitalism (and the republic) from the wave of communism (and anarchism) sweeping the world in the 30s. From their perspective, that he saved capitalism is more important. From mine, that he ushered in an era of progressive reforms that lasted until Reagan is key.
Either way, it was a radical, far-left base that pulled FDR and his Democratic party in a seriously progressive direction. The movements of the time were coopted, for sure, but that affected the Democratic establishment as much as it did the radicals. So, that is my hope.
I'm not afraid so much of anarchist outcomes (because I know the American people better than that) as I am concerned about this movement losing support because of these tendencies. But any solution that means less public support for a new progressive agenda is out, as far as I'm concerned. I think splitting the movement will likely have that effect, even more than allowing it to remain radical. We should figure out how to moderate it and focus it as much as posisble, but not slow it down or break it up. Let it be an energetic force for change, even if it's a chaotic one.
My $0.02.
Here's that heavily biased but still compelling Hoover piece: http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/7076
I don't really like my answer either. I'm not sure yet. I'll read this. I need to think. I've had kind of rough day, as you know!
Get some rest. It will still be anarchy tomorrow. ;)
Indeed! lol.
I think you're right. We should try to use OWS for good. A variation on my "storm the GA (figuratively)" idea. That might be a little too dramatic! And would probably not be very effective. But this led me to thinking about the Working Groups.
The anarchists are running the protest right now. I think the Working Groups are a big part of that. We need more protest, less anarchy.
My idea is based on the premise (speculation) that the Working Groups are dominated by anarchists. The Working Groups do not appear to be getting anything substantive done. Otherwise, we'd be further along. In order to overcome this, perhaps there needs to be more "protesters" in the Working Groups.
I'm sure this is happening to some degree already. It must be. There must be "protesters" in those working groups - that think like we do. But maybe their numbers are not sufficient. Or maybe they aren't aware of the anarchists intentions, and therefore are not speaking out enough, but instead, going along with the anarchist "program"(?).
Somebody must have thought of this already. Maybe there are people further along this path, but just need bigger numbers. And more awareness.
If there were more "protesters" in the Working Groups (at least the key Groups, Steering Committee, Demands) maybe the protest side could gain some traction - or - dream crazy big - breakthrough the anarchy.
I enjoyed the article. Thanks for sharing that! Why oh why can't Obama be like Roosevelt! Goes to show how powerful a President can be when he's not been "bought".
So, let's break this down a little further.
Why do we need to rely on the GA or Working Groups? Why work within the anarchists' system at all? And seriously, what have they really offered to the world outside, besides some compelling stories about those crazy OWS kids organizing an organic democracy? We all know the narrative that we don't have any demands, and it's been left up to others to infer those demands. Whether the demands WG is meant to solve that problem, or perpetuate it, hardly matters IMO. It should just be bypassed.
With the Tea Party, I clearly remember that outside polling was the strongest force in defining their message and the strength of its impact on the politial process. The media superimposed polling results on top of the montage of crazy people in tri-point hats to show the message and the people behind it.
Polling questions started of with "Do you support the Tea Party?" then went on into policy questions - "As a TP supporter, do you think..." And so developed a picture of TP "demands." Yeah, the Obamacare thing was big and obvious, but it was the detailed polling that really defined them as a movement.
Where is our poll? Why don't we know: Of people that identify or sympathize with OWS, 88% want to reinstate glass-Steagal, 93% want higher taxes on the wealthiest 400 Americans, 89% want campaign finance reform, 77% want to renegotiate so-called "free trade" policies, etc...
That such a poll hasn't been done is, to me, a mystery, and probably speaks to the corporate media bias.
EDIT: It appears this post has been censored. It no longer shows up in the main list.
Good points!
I have thought about the issue of working within the anarchist structure as well. Since we both thought of this - I think it is very important. Not that I am ready to dismiss the idea. But I think it comes down to - would it be more effective to try to work within it for our purposes (at least for a little while, until we get some traction) Or, more effective to bypass is? Working from the inside is stealthier! (I could not resist saying that) Beat them at their own game?
Polling is a very good point. I mean, isn't polling really just some kind of ranked form of DD? If DD is the agenda here, it makes it even more strange, that we don't even have an INSIDE poll! Not that I have seen anyway. Gets me back to, these people do not want to accomplish anything, even when it is something right up their alley, a fully democratic ranked poll of the issues of OWS. Or they are the most inept persons on the planet.
A poll is an excellent idea, because that could be just what this protest needs - to get to the next level. That could certainly help to overcome some of the anarchy. It would provide some clarity, gain more supporters.
That fact that this is not showing up is a good thing.
Thanks.
"That fact that this is not showing up is a good thing."
Yeah, agreed.
I'm all for it, if you and others on the ground can get some traction within the DD system at Liberty, do it. I just won't hold my breath. As my favorite troll has pointed out, these structures seem naturally resistant to substantive solutions for working within the system ro reform the status quo.
On internal polling. I think that would be great, but I considered it and decided that it's too difficult to get a real sample of the "internal" OWS population. If you just focus on Liberty, for example, you're going to probably have outsized influence of the most die-hard radicals and anarchists that are still there everyday. If you go by these forums and such, it will be more detractors and trolls...
So, any ideas on how we could get the major pollsters to run nationwide polls of OWS supporters and sympathizers?
See that. Thras is very smart.
Major pollster. I do not know. Someone that is highly sympathetic to our cause. Someone that could help get something like that commissioned. I wonder if there is some kind of not-for-profit that could do a nationwide?
There's more to being good than being smart. He has an agenda, do not doubt it. He really has done much on this forum to forward the Glenn Beck view of OWS, and his allies in several conversations have been right-wing ideologues like Joyce.
Who commissioned the TP polls? I really don't know. RNC or what? What about all those ABC/Washington Post or NBC/Wall Streat Jour... oh. :)
How about post it - we need infor about nationwide pollsters, TP polling, not-for-profit, an org that would be sympathetic to our cause. Something like that. You're a much better poster than I am! I won't be able to be around much longer. If you do it, PM the link to me and I will try to pop in when I can to help keep it going.
get some rest, April and friends.
You guys are the reason we are all talking.
Bless you all from 'four hours north' in Boston.
There is no hidden agenda. I suggest reading the different Occupy sites and doing the research. Learn the history of how this evolved and why every member is considered a leader, why there is no central structure, and why the 1% are being targeted in their demands for justice.
You're right, its not so hidden. Its all out there. You just need to know what you are looking for. I've done that research. This is a Direct Action movement based on anarchy principles. I don't believe it has the structure or intent to work with government for change. It says so on the News page, "we don't need politicians". I suppose if you created a society with Direct Democracy, that's correct, you would not need Wall Street or politicians. It's not hidden at all. I believe it does have a leader though. David Graeber and those that believe in the anarchistic ideas and principles that he advocates.
Yes, the 1% are the target. With justifiable reasons that I happen to agree with. But don't confuse "targeting" and Direct Action with affecting any real change with and through government.
Anybody advocating affecting change with a government that has become complicit in crimes against humanity is simply being absurd. Fixing the machine by being polite and nice isn't going to happen. Working with the government has already been tried. It failed.
Buzzzzzzt!
Time is up!
Now it is the time to break the machine. We must do that by throwing our bodies on the cogs of the machine, and we must break the machine so a new one can be crafted to replace the broken one. That is the only true path to restoring justice.
Well, thats where we disagree. I believe in working with and through government. I do not believe we have to break the machine. I believe much can be accomplished by ending government corruption. The problem is the political system and the money that drives it. That is what needs to be changed. Not break the machine/government. But if that is what you believe, you will find many anarchists here that agree with you. Most of them promote and advocate replacing our Representative Republic form of government with Direct Democracy. So, if you like that kind of thing, good luck.
loosely human:
I wrote a couple of things below, one was addressed to April. Please have a look.
This is all powerful stuff to think about --and read and write about.
I think that there are many things that are NOT too important to look at today.
I do not have any answers to share. I am asking myself question each day and seeking answers.
I DO KNOW that I am thinking of my own survival. I am NOT thinking of HOW I CAN SAVE my country.
I do not feel good about the way I feel. I am being honest. The USA is gone so far toward the edge... and such a high rate of speed... that (even) slamming on the brakes -- will likely NOT save us.
I recently (few month back) took $10k out of the bank so that I'd have some COH ..cash on hand.
Sure, the dollar will fall in the future.. but just after a major event we will need something to trade with.
When I went to the bank I first asked for thirty thousand... and they looked at me like I was a fng nutjob. (that account had ~$50k)
That scared me bigtime!!
Today I am going to buy some other currencies... some Yen, RMB, and some Philippine Pesos. Sure I like to travel and I need COH but this run to the bank is my way, one of my ways, of planning.
You will need cash. Get cash, stash it.
if you respond or ask... I will give you some ideas about 'what to do' imho.
Warren in Boston
Warren in Boston: Yes, please share what to do. I too have experienced similar scenarios with a bank in the past-have found it is easier to pull out cash in increments of $1000 to no more than $5000 If cashing a settlement check of greater than $10K another easier option is traveler's checks.
The Argentinans have had plenty of recent experience with $ devaluation in recent history and diversified currency holdings in anticipation of such a scenario is wise- but what do you think of alternatives such as diamonds or other gems, precious and industrial metals-do you have any good sources that have a very low mark up over spot pricing no matter the quantity purchased?
Thanks in advance!
EDC,
Regarding my 'banking statements' above:
I DID NOT WANT to make it easy for the bank. I was doing two things.
When I got up that morning my intention was simply to make a withdrawal. I did not THINK that .... "Today will be a great day to TEST the system"
I was worried about the system and therefore decided to step back from it -- taking with me some of my earnings.
The real shock was that when I asked for thirty thousand dollars from an account that 'said' I had fifty thousand-- they.... actually, Kuncha P. (the manager of the BofA in Chinatown/Boston) became agitated, though she masked that emotion with a few questions,,, and a... "Warren, you must know that we do not keep that amount of cash on hand".
When 'something' happens I think that there will be a run on the banks and they'll shut down.
Next, some people will throw some bricks thru some windows, perhaps in multiple cities and at the same time, and then in short order the troops will be called out.
I do admire any and all of you who are in the street for yourself and/or for the collective good.
I am NOTso brave. I likely would only join such a movement if my own house was totally in order. I would not expect to gain anything for myself through being another person there, with all that that entails.
One boy up here in Boston was on the radio telling about the OWS actions/events here and then he got a good job, a job he wanted to get.
I heard him say, "I can see it all from my desk now. I look out the window and I have a totally different view from up here".
So. Is he a sell-out? Or, is he a success? I do NOT know. What the objective is, likely is a personal matter.
Should he quit his job because many others do not have jobs? Should he loosen his tie and join them at 5:15pm, before heading home for a hot shower and a cold beer?
I do not know.
What I do know is that I need to take care of myself first. And if I do that successfully I can then do things like visit 'Roy' who lives on the street in Chinatown. Bring him fun stuff like cold beers and hot food. I can buy him multiple sets of underwear and long underwear before the snow comes.
But, I need to take care of myself TO BE ABLE to assist my wonderful pal, Roy, who lives in the street.
I am rambling, forgive me.
My point is that I respect you guys and gals out there... AND want you to know that you are doing the dirty work.
I do not think marching etc will make your problem go away... YET you are irritating the status quo.
They do NOT want an educated populace in the streets... that scares the sh!t out of them.
Tonight I see that a certain man running for president is getting more and more attention.
I will not say his name here.
I will say that this country may NOT be over if he gets elected. But I will also say that the people you guys are standing up to... will make sure that this man is NOT elected.
THEY control the voting machines AND the entire 'counting events' ... which is now primarily done (illegally) in secret.
You guys are the tip of the revolution upon us, NOT me.
This is way too long an email for this forum.
I will say that I am scared and hopeful. And I have (many) backup plans and on and on. I don't know how to advise another person... yet I will say this:
If you are ever in Boston and hungry I will share my food with you. We can eat together. I'll eat one-half my dinner. You can have the other half.
I did not answer your request in a proper manner. my response is from my heart and from my head.
We need to help each other.
What THAT looks like.... we shall see.
Hello Warren, You sound exactly like a great friend of ours who has helped us out by being willing to loan us at 0 interest every 2 weeks and in other ways too without asking or wanting additional payback for the gifts of food and even clothing. Willingness to loan and especially to give is something that we can all do no matter how small the gift. Trust among old friends is certainly unusual when it comes to money and real need during hard times but charitable acts from strangers is truly special and something that our society needs more of vs. public programs that are not infrequently inadequate to the needs of the recipients.
Where are you and your husband these days, NYC? I ask in a caring way, not in any other way.
We're in Reno, NV We 'self evacuated' from Contra Costa County California in 2010 due to the economic crisis which effectively burned up our 'emergency' savings reserve (provisioned over time for slightly over 2 years' of income) despite 'best efforts' of me looking for work and trying our damnedest to keep jobs coming in for a property management/maintenance business we were doing.
...
Hey buddy,
Now, tell me if you and your husband want me to help you find more work there, where you are.
If you, .... or..... AS YOU, are real and strong... I will get you contracts in your city.
I can sell contract based on truth. If you need work there, I will get you in the door to do the work.
When I speak to the hiring people they know that I do not tell lies.
I will tell them you will do certain maintenance.. and you will do it. And you and your husband will be paid.
I can do it from where I am.
You two can do it from where you are.
Simply give me something to go on... a direction. I will make the calls and you and your husband will be earning cash soon.
There is a private line on this site and I trust these guys/gals.
Tell me here what you are doing today to pay the rent and eat.
Be honest. This is the forum of our country here.
Do you have children and do you need money asap?
Or, my I help you over the next week or two, or three.... more of a 'less' emergency plan.
I am not rich, and, I can held another person as long as i am alive, as can you, and, as can all others reading here.
Warm regards to you and your husband.
If you need a couple of hundred for food asap I will send.
Sure it is for you. It is also for others to see that a person who has enough, more than enough, can and will give naturally.
Warren
Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving! e-mail us at ddsmailbox at msn.com Dr's orders and nature of husband's injury are severe enough that it is me that would be available more for general property management/marketing/office and lighter forms of maintenance-ie:not structural although I have installed toilets and bathroom and kitchen sinks with assistance! I can also act as assistant to any real estate broker willing to train me on any proprietary marketing software they are using. Job must be within the 89503 zip or possibly doable from home?- we do not have a 4 wheel drive vehicle. Plan to upgrade husband's VA benefit, possibly have me relicense for real estate in Nevada for a number of reasons.
We are borrowing from a friend right now until we get VA benefit adjusted which will take about a year and there will be a lump sum for back pay on agent orange revision but thanks for the offer!
Chat later- gotta get Thanksgiving dinner prepped and start cooking!
thank you for your kind words.
PS: Banks literally not having $50K on hand is common nowadays:this is why the traveler's checks are doable. Since it's your $ I wonder if there is any fine print in our account agreements that would prevent a viable lawsuit? FDIC insures up to a maximum amt. I think $250K per acct. and bank $ deposits are actively put to work earning interest so with a max of $30K to"allow" you to pull out there's also the possibility the bank manager is under pressure based on preserving the interest earnable on deposits no matter how much cash is in the vault.
Perhaps you are right.
What I remember happened is this: I went into the branch on a Monday and Kuncha P. told me that the earliest they could get the money was going to be the coming Thursday or Friday.
I ended up asking for $25k in a bank check AND ten-thousand in cash. They did as I asked... and I stuck the ten in my pocket AND I made a beeline to Fidelity and opened an account there with the 25..
They want to 'do something' with the money yet I said I simply want to park it.
My feeling is that when our society is about to collapse people will run to the banks and the banks will NOT have enough money to satisfy demand.... AND the company I mentioned above WILL have funds.
Forget about FDIC!!
I was told that they, Fidelity, CANNOT give me CASH as they are NOT a bank. But, they can wire the funds to another country where I have an account.
As for 'what to do' with the coming collapse:
In late June 2010 I went to Manila on a business trip. I stayed in a hotel that cost about ~$250 per night... AND I realize that that is typical in most of the world.
Nevertheless, the rent for a little flat outside the downtown is .... let me say it this way. If you can afford two hundred per month, you will get a nice place!!
Even $150.00 usd per month will do.
Why the Philippines?
Pick any country... and then reflect on the basics that are there. I like great food (cheap)and pretty girls (sincere) and they have a lot of both. Sorry to sound like a jerk... I guess I am one.
I have lived in many places in this world and visited many countries... and in the end I want to live in a third world country.
They have little today and they still smile... at least that is my impression of the Philippines, and a whole bunch of other spots too.
Pakistan is a country I loved to visit in 1989-1990!! But it is not a place I will feel relaxed... I'll be looking over my shoulders. Sad to say... what a beautiful place on earth. ( think Switzerland as for the beauty in the northern parts)
On a shorter timeline and less international perspective, I'll go with some farmland in Canada, although, that may be too close to home to be safe.
My son bolted to Costa Rica to live off the land. He left about one year... no, ten months ago.
Now he is in another country close to CR. He wants me to leave here, as he sees total collapse as a given.... and thinks that I am mad to live in a big city.
10 December I will leave for 15 days in Japan, HK, China, and back to Boston. Yet I do NOT 'feel' that I'll find what I see in my mind... high in the cooler regions of Philippines.
As for gold, silver and other hard assets:
Gold will cost more USD when the USD fails. Silver will be even a better play as it gets back to its historic Silver to Gold price.
Beyond that I am not the person to talk to.
That said, in the future:
My children will speak Mandarin Chinese.I will live in Asia and visit the US. No matter what, I will 'have' more than I 'need'.I will rely on MYSELF to create my life. *My door abroad will be open to my American brothers and sisters.
Not being defeated is as much mental as it is physical.
Most people can tell you what it is that they do not have, and yet they cannot tell you specifically of their dreams.
I, my new friend, LOVE to dream. I dream big.... and then I move my feet.
Daydreaming is important!!
Often I collect all of the information about the world as it is NOW that I can in take in.... in a few days, hours, months, (ie., the world as it is now, at this moment in time). And then I dream of what I could BE in it, given what I NOW know, and given the (limited) creativity I have 'to dream'.
And then I act on THAT.
Next thing that happen is that doors open, and then I need to make decisions as to what to do next.
We'll think about Fidelity among options such as USAA & Navy/Military credit unions. Hmmm, husband is a Vet w/service connected VA benefit-we've discussed overseas options as well but for now we're using local and affordable options local to us. While you're able to travel about you might like www.escapeartist.com and if you haven't read it already "Investment Biker" by Jim Rogers www.jimrogers.com he lives in Singapore now for all of the reasons we're discussing here and then some.
Have been to Osaka, Japan & Minamikawachigun It truly saddens me about the triple disasters in Japan and husband and I along with many of our friends have now quit all ocean source foods, salts and products due not only to the fact the oceans are a military and industrial sewer but now contain much more elevated levels of "hot" particles with half lives that exceed several human lifetimes - Fukushima/TEPCO has released so much radioactive material into the oceans and we're surprised to see the sale of "bottom feeder" seafood such as crab and lobster!
PS my handle at the Berkeley Radiological & Air Monitoring Forums is "HotCaviar" which you can google in connection with BRAWM if you're interested in scientific discourse.
I just read now... nice to meet you. Thanks for the heads up!!
I will be in Osaka soon.
Enjoy your trip. Supposedly Osaka is for the most part largely untouched by the tragedies in the more northern parts.
PS: forgot to give you a link to a great resource with regular email updates available on the goings on with Japan's reactors and other related info:
http://fairewinds.com/
You're welcome! At the least minimizing exposure has got to be alot better than chancing a more massive internal and lasting exposure to 'hot particles' banging away at DNA-at least that's how our scientist friends who mentioned the 'quit on ocean source foods and products from here on out' put it.
I hope too that we don't see the significant number of brain tumor patients as evinced in the movie documentary 'The English Surgeon" seen in Russia 10 + years from when they had the Chernobyl disaster.
I'm really missing Nori Seaweed, Sushi, Cocktail shrimps and Tempura right now as I write this but at least there's fresh water fish that we catch ourselves now and then to fulfill this type of craving!
In closing, hopefully the exposures we're all getting from our immediate environment won't have much effect on us and we'll just be lucky together!
When I am in Tokyo I'm planning to go to that fish market early in the morning. Do you know where/what I mean? Sounds like you have some clear insight. Please advise.
Only the 'Ichiban' one will do.
When was the last time you did the Bump?! ;o)
I think the fish market is called Tsukiji --and it is world famous. Whatever you are asking I do not know of, I do not understand... Good luck to you and your husband. Something tells me that 'luck' is going to be an important part of your future.
Stupid is as stupid does.
over and out.
Yes, that is the 'Ichiban' one. 'Ichiban' means best in Japanese.
yes.
Am I dreaming? Have I been awake so long that my brain fails me? You are beginning to agree with assessments made by April that were posts before made by my former self, Thrasymaque? Welcome to The Republic. A fine wine awaits you by the bar. Please, take a sip. The ride towards the truth has just begun.
Absolutely. Both you and the original poster, workhardplayhard, make great points.
The sad part is that many protesters who's intentions are honorable and goals legitimate are being used as pawns in this game.
I know! It is scary. There are alot of vulnerable people being used for someone elses end goal. I struggle with that because I feel just my being here, I'm allowing myself to be used in a sense.
not just 'in a sense' but actually used for others' goals and you do not even know what those goals are.
Yo, stay out there so that they can have a good laugh over the coming holidays!!
If you step up to the counter and they say "how may I help you?" and you have no fucking clue, you have a problem.
Think about what you're saying. There's corruption within the occupy movement, which is itself anarchy? Anarchy is completely immune to corruption by definition. So is direct democracy, which IS being practiced on site, unlike anarchy.
You, sir, are fucking stupid and likely high.
Every system can be corrupted, and it's that much easier if the users of said system think it cannot be. There is a difference between theory and practice. Sometimes, a very big difference.
April, Great post. I just learned a lot by reading your well-reasoned words. It sounds like you are there in NYC on the street, right? Yep, "I think something is up." also.
What do you think is up? See my reply below to FrankieJ.
April, I will answer below... under the part I wrote about Iran in 1953.
Exactly right. All you have to do is go back to those who started it and their past activities along the same lines and how OWS came about to see that's the case. Lasn, Graeber, being modelled on the Spanish Indignados, etc. For cripes sake they didn't even have a real reason for why they were starting a protest. lol Rather, the idea was that they'd figure it out once they get people there.
It was simply an attempt to turn on and bring together a bunch of disenchanted youth in order to try to leverage general discontent into a larger uprising that's been promoted by the same groups for a long time. The "spontaneous" sympathetic protests in other major cities and internationally were all organized in advance and coordinated to give the appearance of a larger "movement." The GA stuff largely is just busy work to keep people involved and invested. Not that there aren't real people with real issues involved, but that's not really at the root of it.
If the idea was to figure it out once the people got here - I would suggest that that has already happened. Ending govt corruption, getting money out of the political process is the first dependency. Then we can tackle all of the other issues. But this has not moved forward.
I absolutely agree 100% with everything else you say! But why? Destabilization, anarchy for the sake of anarchy, a push for Direct Democracy.
I think DD seems the most likely, since it fits with the stated goals of OWS (ending corruption), it is used by the GA as a model to gain support, it gets pushed very hard as a topic, it is associated with anarchy, creating "communities" based on this. Everything kind of points to that.
I read something where Graeber was praising some place in Madagascar, where the government basically left and the people there basically took to governing themselves.
"This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society."
Of course, nothing so simple as Campaign Reform is good enough. Because OWS claims we don't need politicians. Because look how good Direct Democracy works at the GA! If OWS says we don't need politicians, does that mean no government? Sure we can just all run our local communities from our "backyards" using Direct Democracy I suppose.
you're right to ask questions, and don't stop doing so. Do some research on direct democracy and how it can have the effect of actually disempowering and disenfranchising people, especially victimized minorities. There has been some good writing done on these side effects through the years. Just google "direct democracy" + "disenfranchise" + "minorities" and you'll find some info. Especially when combined with other changes to the political, economic and geographical order, the effects can be brutal indeed.
Yes, I'm certain that Direct Democracy is a terrible idea, and certainly not a solution to anything.
And if we come to the conclusion that DD is the goal of OWS, then OWS is pointless, except for those that believe in DD. I do give OWS credit for getting this whole thing started though. But its up to us to move beyond OWS, to affect the kinds of changes in government that we want.
I made a suggestion to looselyhuman above. Not sure if you saw that. I think this group is legit. It at least has the stated intentions of working with/through government. I'm no expert, no inside info or anything. I did sign up though. I think this group has the most potential, so far anyway, that I know of.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
The money out of government theme is inherent. That was Lasn's original idea as a central focus. But it's really just an extension of his and other's larger anti-capitalism/anti-corporatism beliefs and serves more as a general rallying point for various groups involved. The DD stuff as you note comes along with Graeber and the NYCGA crowd. That's where all of the "concensus" and twinkle fingers process comes from.
Sorry, US campaign finance reform isn't really at the top of the list for Canadian, UK, and other international anarchists and culture jammers. Much too mundane and provincial. ; )
Basically, the lack of a clear overall message serves in the same way that the whole "hope and change" deal did - it becomes whatever whomever wants it to be. Once you start to nail things down more, then you start to have divisions, priorities, splintering, etc. Better to just leave it kind of muddy.
Adbusters, I'm pretty sure, had already determined the "demands" prior to the start of the protest. Campaign and Financial Reform, and some of the other usual suspects. Seems like Graeber took control and got the anarchists running things, so the Adbuster "demands" got tossed.
Yes I know! Campaign reform is much too simple. So help me! If getting the money out of government is inherent, but campaign reform is too "provincial" - what is the point?? Then what is going on?? Is it all about Direct Democracy? For the whole world? Next I have to speculate about some sort of egalitarian society and resource based economy stuff. Do I really have to go there??
If this movement leaves things "muddy" how is anything going to get done? Or is that the point? Nothing gets done. Anarchy for the sake of anarchy?
I am so confused.
Meant to post this the other day but forgot. Anyway, you can read Lasn's own admission that the get money out of politics theme is just a "Trojan Horse" to get some mainstream attention and pull people in.
http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet-update.html
Our original conversation clinched it for me! But I'm interested in reading this too. You have been incredibly helpful. I cannot thank you enough for all of your insight!
In the mean time, since this, I have been labled a troll. Imagine! If I cared the least little bit, my feelings might be hurt by this! : (
http://occupywallst.org/forum/trolls-we-have-known/
Not sure if you have seen this thread - a more general discussion about anarchy theory/practice. I think it is very interesting!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-anarchic-dilemma-do-anarchies-self-destruct/#comment-401314
I'm glad you posted to me. I kind of left you hanging the other day and I really meant to get back over here and thank you. So -THANK YOU!
Reminds me of a followup question I had about your comment below. You said that the GA seems to be going in a different direction than recognizing a common theme. Not that I'm surprised, but what direction is it going? Seems to just be going in circles to me.
Congrats on making "the list." lol
I meant that the GA process tends to result in too many cooks in the kitchen and they're all over the place as far as issues. So your "in circles" characterization is about right. For one thing, it kills focus. For another, as I'd said earlier, once you start to define such specific issues, then you start splintering and excluding people versus a more broad rallying point that can be supported by even those who would be opponents on other more granular issues.
I agree and disagree. I think the people like Graeber and Lasn involved from the start of OWS didn't anticipate this going as far as it has and they have even commented to that point in several articles I've read.
You mentioned above that they seem to be catering to everyone involved and focusing on too much at one time. This I agree with but we can't have it both ways. Either they focus and exclude which will minimize participation or include and expand which will dissolve the effectiveness.
Adbusters came out on Monday and suggested scaling back the movement next month and gathering ideas and suggestions over the winter. This would counter your assertion that they had an agenda to begin with besides stirring the populace.
What I disagree with is yours and several other people's level of expectations. This is new to everyone involved and many have careers, school, wives and children to support from locations around the globe. Impatience and frustration will only further the confusion.
Rome was neither built or destroyed in a day.
You bring up alot of good points! I admit, much I what I have to offer is simply speculation! But it is based on some fact, and what I can observe.
There's alot I don't know. Like that Graeber is as surprised as anyone that it has gone this far and gotten this big. That makes sense. How could he know. So, yes, perhaps he doesn't have a grand plan, because he never anticipated this level of "success". So he viewed it as an experiment. Even still, DD seems to be the over-arching goal.
I think I partially disagree with your statement about "focusing". But I do so with ambivalence! I have trouble understanding how - if (big if) the one demand is to achieve fair and equal representation in government, through campaign reform - that would "exclude" anyone. That benefits everyone (except the obvious 1% of course) ! It is simply(or not so simply!) a matter of education. Achieve this first, and then we go about the work of solving all of our other problems.
As far as my level of expectation - I would have expected that at least a starting draft list of "demands" would have been issued and official. Maybe that is expecting too much? I don't think so. Because instead of that, we are spending so much time and energy talking about what is the "hidden agenda", conspiracy theories etc. So not productive! If OWS really wanted to be productive - there would be demands. There is a ton of support for many many good and legitimate ideas. Campaign reform, Financial reform, seem to be the big ones. So, why not run those up the flag pole and see if it flies? If support grows, its good. If not, make adjustments.
Instead - OWS continues to do nothing. But push Direct Democracy and block subways (what does this have to do with ending corruption? Really? At least camping on Wall Street made some sense from a symbolic standpoint. But the subway?? That is dangerous and wrong on so many levels.) .
So I have to conclude that OWS doesn't really want to be productive.
I expect any kind of changes, such as campaign reform and financial reform, will take a long time. But so far, we are not even working toward that. We are speculating about what is going on with this movement - because this movement is not moving forward on the legitimate issues and solutions.
There is enough confusion to go around. And thats the problem. All of the anarchy speculation, the communist propoganda posters. Yes, I agree, much confusion. But this is caused by OWS.
Protesting the government is not a new thing. Anarchists running a protest, I think that is the problem.
There's also, unfortunately, plenty of thorny unforseen-at-first-glance issues with "campaign finance reform" as a main goal. I won't get into all the specifics here but there's a lot of ways it can be the wrong answer-- either the whole concept or in various applications. The more I've thought about it, I am not sure that this should be the prime demand that is pushed. It is very relevant, for sure, and will definitely have to be resolved for this country to really be on the right track, but I see it as more of a sub-category of issues and not the very root cause of the problem.
There was a suggestion of that as THE demand. The main difference being that Lasn had suggested a single demand (which actually made more sense IMO from a protest standpoint), But his role largely was just as an aggregator and promoter along with, for example, Anonymous to turn out kids with their ultra-cool Fawkes mask vids. It wasn't so much that the demand got tossed but as you said, that Graeber, the NYCGA, and crew took over from there and the broader range of "demands" just reflects the nature of the GA/consensus process and the various priorities of groups/people on the ground. Along with whatever casual supporters bring to it with their own "hope and change" perspectives as reflected in the range of posts here.
But in the end, none of the specifics really affect the larger end goal for DD, anarchy, anti-capitalism, however you want to characterize it. From that perspective, nothing really needs to "get done" other than to bring in as many people as you can based on however they view the "movement." It's more about gaining critical mass and influencing as many as you can to your side. The belief being that once there, the rest will follow, however you want to view that future state. (The far left as always being kinda shaky on the what comes next part. lol)
I am way over this idea of keeping things vague to grow numbers. Other social justice movements have not had to stay vague to be inclusive or to be heard. It's simple: if you're for a given idea, you join in supporting it. More and more I am finding the vagueness of OWS to be dangerous. You don't know who you've pulled into the crowd and what their intentions are. Interested supporters want to know what they're signing on for and if it's going to be on the right side of history and worth putting themselves on the line for and worth shutting down our government and economy for. People have a right to know exactly what this about and what's supposed to come from it. Nobody wants to be a "useful idiot".
I'd agree. And that's much easier to do around some central, commonly held type of theme like "money out of politics" that a disparate group of people all can supprt. The GA/concensus process seems to be headed in exactly the opposite direction though.
It seems very strange to me that seemingly, supposedly, well-educated, intelligent people like Graeber and/or Lasn would actually believe that DD/anarchy could work. And believe that they could convince enough people to do it and that it could work on a large scale. So many people reject it outright (the biggest hurdle being that people fundamentally have trouble with change - and this would be a big one) . It has never proven scaleable, and even in theory it disproves itself. There are so many flaws with it. It makes no sense.
If they are smart - they know this. And there is no "once there, the rest will follow". Because they must know they will never get there.
So they know it won't work. And its all just an experiment to them.
They are using the anarchists (especially people pushing the DD ideas and working on the DD technologies and infra-structures who strongly believe that this is the ultimate solution) as much as they are using everyone else. For the purposes of their experiment?
Well, like I said, the what comes next is always a little lacking. ; )
I don't know much of Graeber other than through his association with OWS. Just looking at his backrgound I get the impression that he's more of a true believer.
Lasn/Adbusters I've known of for a long time (and much of their stuff I think is very well done btw). I'd say that you're likely on the mark there as far as the social experiment comment. Even more toward a social "art piece" in a way. That's right in keeping with the kinds of things that he does otherwise. Even though it kind of got away from him fairly quickly, still works from that perspective. Maybe even better than he'd planned on. lol
Here's one of the best articles that I've seen yet on OWS which gives a little more insight into some of those involved and their backgrounds and the whole "demands" aspect. Doesn't really get into a lot of detail re the planning beforehand or coordination with other groups but still good:
"Inside Occupy Wall Street - How a bunch of anarchists and radicals with nothing but sleeping bags launched a nationwide movement"
By Jeff Sharlet, Rolling Stone November 10, 2011
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/occupy-wall-street-welcome-to-the-occupation-20111110
You're completely overlooking the fact that direct democracy could function within a capitalistic system. It could also be a revised DD system where the entire population does not vote on EVERYTHING, but only the things that would effect them, or the entire country. There are just so many things that you're overlooking or assuming. I'm having a lot of trouble believing that you've thought this through sufficiently.
I have talked with many other people about this and heard these arguments. I have thought it through. Even if there is some sort of government and we retain capitalism. I do not want Direct Democracy. So thanks, but no thanks.
Why do you think Direct Democracy means no government? If a community of people decide by direct democracy to elect government, it would happen.
Do more research. You are still blind to how the OWS movement started.
Nope, seems you are.
http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet-update.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/occupy-wall-street-welcome-to-the-occupation-20111110
"The Middle East is becoming increasingly more radical and dangerous for Israel"
Maybe Israel should send their own troops instead of forcing Americans to fight for them.
I thought that this movement was clear on it's demands. It is just the multi- billion dollar media industry that is pushing the "I don't get it" line. I thought the Occupiers simply want the 1% to pay taxes like the rest of us. They get the most out of this country the least they can do is give something back to this country. Why should the middle class shoulder the whole burden of taxes? While the richest 1% pay little or next to nothing compared to the middle class?
if by "America" you mean the "The despotic plutocratic rule of the 1% at the expense of the 99%." Then yeah, I want to destabilize "America".
buphiloman is right.
Throwing our bodies into the cogs of the machine to demand change is insufficient. No, we must destroy the machine and become the machine to satisfy the demands of justice. It is the only way to restore the rule-of-law. It must be done by peaceful protests and civil disobedience. Nothing less will work.
OWS is a social movement. Like a beacon it shows the path. Political victory will follow spontaneously. Find yourself! Support OWS!
OW has done a great thing. It's awakened a sleeping giant. All who have sweated and bled and sacrificed for this deserve the highest praise, regardless of what faction they may be aligned with. Having said that, somehow this movement must make a leap and connect with the even broader discontent of the majority. Advocating direct democracy is in my opinion a fantasy. Society is very very complex. Things have to be done. I don't have the answers but it feels like it is time for a next step.
I agree. I give credit to OWS for getting this thing started and mobilizing people. Direct Democracy is a terrible idea. Some info on possible nexts steps are above, in my conversation with looselyhuman, in case you haven't seen that yet!
I think the only way to connect with a broader audience, is to move beyond OWS with more specific demands that people can identify with. And I don't believe OWS will do that.
OWS continues to say everything, which is the equivalent of saying nothing -to the larger population. I'm actually a little surprised that strategy got this far! Guess it goes to show how much discontent we have in this country of ours! Which is quite sad.
I can't imagine the movement could have got jump started with this strength had it proclaimed some dry demands like "electoral campaign finance reform." No way would people have camped out, took beatings, inhaled pepper spray, gone to jail and come back for such a demand. As it is nowthe slogan could be reduced to "we want fairness for the 99%" and it is what put everything into motion. I know at some point, maybe soon, it has to get more specific. Not sure how that will happen.
April, I feel that you ad a lot to the 'national dialog' when I read your words.
And help me here: I do not understand the "list of demands" concept.
Help me to understand.
In a 'hostage taken' setting ... I get it.
Gun to the head.. "These are my demands/ our demands"
Yep. But in this setting... what are YOUR demands?
What is the context (you are proposing) for demands?
If you were in a hostage setting you would all be gone on 30 seconds.
Does it make sense to use the US Constitution as the roadmap?
For real. help me understand.
Obama recently passed a law that dictates that he can order the murder of any US citizen if he so desires.
Is that remarkable?
I think it is yet I have not heard others discuss this, even mention, this Presidential Directive.
Recently he employed his new law to pop the heads off of a couple of US Americans.... and the people have not a whimper among them.
My list of demands starts with the rule of law.
Any law that applies to me applies to you.
I do not care if you/your daddy/mommy is __ whoever.
The revolution will be executed when the people demand equal rights and protection under the law/laws of the land.
The constitution is the law of the land and even the US Supreme Court is NOT following the US Constitution.
If the Constitution is not followed I believe we are to overthrow the regime that is not following it.
Our troops take an oath to do so. To protect and defend.... You know the words.
I think your OWS event will be, or is, the start of the next US revolution that NEEDS to happen in this country.
I am sorry if I am not talking about the stuff that you guys want to talk about. I am not there. I do not battle with the realities you have ever present.
I am removed and reflect on the larger picture. I see that population reduction will be a goal of the elites.
Fewer mouths to feed.
Or as an advisor of Barack Obama said:
"Today it is easier to kill one million people than to control one million people".
In the past it was not that way.
Control was easier.
I feel that they will step up their game soon.
Quite insightful. Although the agenda of the 1% is already much more advanced than you realize. They have had thirty years to create the current legal framework that permits capitalism to be weaponized.
Now that capitalism is weaponized they are using the weapon. The 1% are quite open and brazen as they commit mass-murder.
Here are examples of how the 1% use capitalism to cause mass-murder. They do it by by starvation and the elimination of access to common resources necessary for survival. The 1% creates drug fake shortages with electricity (Enron), medications, access to medical care, every commodity, and more. It is done simply to drive up prices and increase their profits while the suffering of the 99% increases exponentially.
Finally, throwing our bodies into the cogs of the machine to demand change is insufficient. No, we must destroy the machine and become the machine to satisfy the demands of justice. It must be done by peaceful protests and civil disobedience. Nothing less will work.
thanks for your words. I want to learn more. Warren.
What is the name of this law, and where can I find information about it? Thanks.
You are NOT a true researcher, therefore, read on:
Dear Fellow Citizen:
I did not see your words until just a minute ago. May I write back to you soon, perhaps in the morning?
Thank you for asking what you did. I think that if I offered a job to everyone in that park a job for $100k per year... the park would clear out fast.
Therefore, one could ask... even, SHOULD ask, what is the point?
I earn, as April says... "alot" AND I am ALSO shit scared for our future.
That I earn a lot each year is the result of many many things. A long story. Help from family, years and years and years of school (cancer doctor), sleeping on the floor, rats in the ceiling... mom and dad saved cash for down payments on real estate, and a whole lot of luck too.
I used to push a shopping cart on the sidewalk in front of the Four Season Hotel... and think: ' ' In the future I will be sitting in the window looking out ' '.
Today I do not eat there often as I know of better joints.
Nevertheless, as far as all that goes, when I am in Hong Kong I do stay at the Kowloon Shangri La.
Looking for a job never got my blood flowing.
Since I was twenty years old or so, I was giving jobs. I was hiring.
The myths of 'making it' are myths, indeed.
If one does not know the esential elements of a contract... one is doomed to.... 'looking for a job'.... aka (in most cases) wage slave w. slave wage.
There are many things that are 'givens' in our society that I ( I want to say 'never') over time found to be control devices.
What you all call 'jobs', the two-party system, mortgages. religion, formal education... etc., I see as 'tools of oppression' that is, if you do not understand them.
Yes, I have had all of these things... and yet I see them for what they are.
Whenever I went for a job-getting event... I interviewed the interviewer and I got the jobs I wanted.
I stood out BECAUSE I did not accept the status quo of how to look at an interview. BAM!!
After me, there was no job openning. I got the job!! And in many cases I quit soon after ... ie, when I saw that they were simply a bunch assholes.
Many times I turned employers over to the police and others.... and guess who got the teeth marks in the ass?
Not always me though!!! Lance Robins, in Los Angeles, was raided by the Feds after I reported his actions and the actions of his family and associates. That was fun to watch!! I felt ... I was happy when I was on the right side of the human justice, He was a dirty dog and he and his people paid dearly. BAM!!
I felt good!!
My point is this:
Read whatever I wrote on this page. I am sincere in my thoughts and I trust that my words reflect such.
I admire anyone, all of you, protesting. I am a more stealthy type.
Today I approached the police in Boston as said, "Why are you NOT ticketing this car!!?" (A perfectly new black SUV was parked where it said 'NO STOPPING') And I said loudly... "If I parked here you will ticket me... so why is this man allowed to park here AND NOT be ticketed?" The policeman said.." I will not give him a ticket"
I said, "WHY?"
"What you are saying is that the law that applies to ME does NOT apply to HIM!! Right?!!"
The polieman was embarased as my loud voice caught much attention...
And then the mayor of Boston and his entourage left.
People all around me who heard me smiled.
I taped the event, right.
Get the wrongdoings caught on tape. Remember that Rodney King video?
The rich people ran to the stores and bought water and food after that verdict hit!!
Wow!!
It is late and you guys need to rest.
I sit in my cushy life and admire all of you.
1%... Am I in that? i do not know. I do know that I scratched and nearly died to be able to 'be where I am today'. I will NOT ask anyone to follow me. It was, simply, too hard.
I never thought of a future with 'social security' as part of my plan.
The future I see will neither be social nor secure.
Excuse me for hitting your head right now:
Get over it.
You are on your f*cking own.
Save yourself.
Or, don't.
to HAVE a good future you need to be able to SEE a good future in your mind. And then you need to move toward that future.
If you do NOT know HOW to do this... find someone who knows how to do this, and copy that person.
It is all about fairness. People see that there is a growing gap and WAY too many are being left behind. At some point this greed is an addiction and those who are under the sway of this addiction are in need of intervention.
Watch Inside Job. It won an academy award for best documentary. It's about Wall Street and it's crimes against America.
Get Wall Street out of politics is actually a message of OWS.
"Where were these anti-Wall Street protests 2 years ago when the bailouts were being handed out?"
They were right there on Wall Street--September 25, 2008. I was there. Here's the video: http://youtu.be/XreAnHG8xu4
Happy to help...
Nice! The bots fail to understand that this movement has been decades in the making.
"it's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything." That statement explains why so many things slide here in America and why there are more protesters than ever before. Most people have to lose everything to care. Not everyone, but most.
enjoying the fruits of the stock exchange.
that's funny, since TARP didn't pass until October 2008.
What does it not being passed until Oct. 3 2008 have to do with protests against it prior to passage?
I see, so you're going to protest a law before it passes, watch it pass, lay low for almost 3 years, then start protesting. Makes perfect sense.
Will you support the next bailout?
http://jpfarrell.blogspot.com/2009/08/timeline-of-financial-bailout-of-2008.html
Here's a link to the timeline. As you can see, Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy on 9/15/08, and Ben Bernanke and Henry Paulson presented their bailout plan to Congress on 9/18/08, a week before the protest. Just because you weren't paying attention at the time doesn't mean that other people weren't...
Yes, and Congress voted down the bailout plan at first, watched the market collapse, then finally passed it in October.
Pavlov's dog has got you by the balls.
I understand truth is difficult for you to handle, I will speak in hyperbole from now on.
Truth has physical properties. It can be represented in a model, and the model can be proven using logic and calculus.
You claim to "....understand truth...." Name the physical properties and prove them.
I know I can do it. Now it is your turn.
Once this is understood, it becomes like Newton's laws of gravity. The equations can be used to manipulate the outcome.
what do you mean, that was just my interpretation from what i knew at the time, I was telling all of my friends it was kinda weird that the congress capitulated right after the stock dropped 800 points. my knowledge of how my dog bugs me at 500 every night, whether he is Hungary or not, made me inquisitive.
The whole premise of the post is inherently flawed. OWS can't do something that has already been done. Thank you for the tv inspired creativity though.
Oh but this movement has been in the making for several years. You are simply ignorant of the history.
Those of us that do know remain silent because we are anonymous.
Disinformation alert ! Cointellpro typing too many of these posts.
OWS destabilize america ? I think derivatives did that pretty well already, as did the many causes leading up to all this. What's crazy is that american sheeple don't know how to connect the dots until it's too late.
1971 would have been a good time to protest the same OWS topics, or '81 or '87 or '98
Try this link on for size people.... it's one of my favorities: http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm
You sound like a supporter of Israel. Enough said.
Look, just look at globalization and neo-liberalism as the first destabilizing force against the American Populace...OWS is just a symptom.
America: Already Unstable (hopefully it's not too late to fix it)
Iran and Israel about to go to war? We've been hearing that same drumbeat to war for over 6 years.
The US is destabilized RIGHT NOW, you have that very much backwards. OWS wants to stabilize the US.
Destabilize a country that is responsible for more death, destruction, and human suffering then any other Empire in History?
I'm in.
I ran across this a few months back that might interest many of you.
Dumitru Duduman Warning America (America will burn) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6kuD1vYIK8
I'm glad you agree we need to get $ out of politics. Welcome aboard! (we can fight about all the other stuff later, okay? ...Once we have elected officials that actually represent us. And at that moment I will be proud to "lose" to you on any issue fully debated, and democratically decided!)
I'm so sick of people saying that the demonstrators don't have demands. They ARE the demands. They do not have voices in our democratic republic, but they have voices within the movement. And they ARE doing something - It's called DEMOCRACY, and we haven't had it in this country for a long, long time. Use the system to change the system? I don't think so. More like try to use the system while the system is really using you. All I see in this thread is more divisive politics. OWS isn't anarchy, OWS is true democracy. You just don't know what that looks like.
Then I guess you haven't read this http://commonstruggle.org/node/2570
or this http://nefac.net/node/2569
LOL. A website. That's scary.
First of all who gives a shit about Israel, let them defend themselves like everyone else in this world must do. The only people who seem to be fanatically so concerned about Israel are those who have been PAID and and/or intimidated into this fanatical devotion to the sanctity of Zionism. The average American could care less what happens to Israel and that's a fact.
Secondly the arab revolution is not a revolution at all, it was a CIA coup etat disguised as a people's revolution. The point is exactly to drive these countries into violent and fanatical islamic regimes this way justifying decades of war and all that luscious war profiteering that US industrialists love so much.
There is some validity to this idea that this movement (like all movements) could, can and might already be infiltrated by a very dark and sinister force and this is an excellent point you raise.
Just look at Mr. Barack Obama. He undoubtedly represents the very same industrial and military interests as Bush did and he was sold to us as the man who was going to liberate us all from this.
reforming the government http://occupywallst.org/forum/forum-topics/#comment-172194
Although the demands of OWS are ambiguous now, one theme remains constant, corrupt negotiations (read: lobbying with money/bribery) needs to be eliminated. Large Global corporations and the mega wealthy are the only entities who have the time, money and avarice to effectively steer the United States of America away from the American people’s interests. When OWS protested outside the Koch Brother’s Manhattan home that told me they were going after the head of the snake (for once) and showed me that they had righteous conviction, and the courage and strength that come from righteousness, to possibly make a difference or at a minimum let the power brokers who prefer to hid in the shadows know that you can fool some of the people some of the time but not everyone all the time. - Guy In The Thoid Row
WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT TO "DESTABALIZE" AMERICA????? you live in America....it is your country why would you want to destroy it.....why make America Communist?????
Yes, your thoughts written above will NOT be considered by too many people. Hence the danger.
Much of what happened the the Middle East was CIA in action. Until one learns what happened to the democratically elected leader of Iran, Dr. M. Mossadegh, in 1953 one cannot understand the possibilities before us.
Mossadegh proclaimed that the oil wealth of his nation was to go to and be used for the PEOPLE of the country.
What happened next?
There was a coup and Shah was put into power. Sure, he was a real bastard but he was OUR bastard. The blowback from that event was the 'Iran hostage crisis' back in Jimmy Carter's term.
Until these past events are looked at, understood for what they were, and are then taken into consideration, many individuals will be used primarily as tools of the rich and powerful. I'm sorry to think that a 'new slave' future awaits unwitting mobs.
Educate yourself.
Somebody else I was talking to - suggested a CIA connection. I honestly could not make heads or tails of it. If you are interested let me know.
April, I will only say a few words, as I 'need' to go out soon. (out of my office)
Much of what took place in the Middle East in recent years and recent months was likely funded by our CIA, and, Dr. Gene Sharp is the man I credit with the strategy behing the toppling of the Egyptian government. His book 'From Dictatorship to Democracy: A Conceptual Framework for Liberation' was/is the written guide.
What is going to happen in USA is unknown to me today BUT what I see as probable is this: SOMETHING BIG will happen. Something bigger than the event of 11 September, 2001. Warren E. Buffett when interviewed once, spoke of an event larger than that day. He was being asked about mega-cat policies and the risks in relationship to some of his insurance companies. That got me interested!!
So, WHAT will the event be?
I'll answer in a way that'll force you to research on your own: An EMP event will be next... AND it will be said that Iran is responsible.
The truth be known it will orriginated from a private ship off of our coast, say, 200 miles from our shore.
This event will lead to an entire collapse of our society. I will let you figure out what will happen next.
Hint: It is NOT pretty.
Moving to a third-world nation and building a life there -- will insure one has a place to escape to.
I feel many people will perish in USA. Perhaps, someday you will call it a 'planned demolition' of sorts.
April, To clarify:
(given your words below these)
When Buffett spoke of the fact that in (his opinion) the future there will be some major event taking place (on US soil) that will be BIGGER than the events of 11 Sept., 2001... I simply heard that much.
I mentioned that it was Warren E. Buffett instead of saying "I heard some insurance guy say..."
This old guy is on the inside of many things.
In mentioning this dynamic as associated with WEB I was NOT going down the path of analyzing his business model given future possible events and outcomes.
Please read my next post entered below your questions:
warren, what is the connection between the protest (started by anarchists), the CIA and a possible EMP event? Those things seem exclusive of one another. How do they fit together?
How do you know it will be an EMP from a ship? As opposed to some other method?
If our entire society will collapse, why is Warren Buffet concerned about insurance policies? Unless he's trying to sell alot now to make alot of money. Who would buy those policies, if they might not be around to collect on them? How would an insurance company be able to pay the claims if society collapses? Who will be left to collect from whom?
Who is planning the demolition? The CIA? Why?
April, I do NOT know IF the anarchists are on someone's payroll, or, if TA (the anarchists) are NOT on someone's payroll. And I really do not care if they are or if they are not. My attempt to gain a true worldview is larger than that.
As the US is going off the cliff (shall I say 'We' instead of US?) the US needs a way to take control in the world.
People say that the days/weeks/months after 9-11 was the time that the US could have built wonderful relationships throughout the world, but we did not.
You've heard people say.... it was "An opportunity, lost".
The reason that we did not is that we are NOT seeking peace on earth, etc. What we are seeking is a long war... so as to bring a new age.
A new age where WE are in absolute control...
and, hey, today our men and machines are already there, right!!
Let's point out some details:
*In June/July 2001 China and Russia were signing an important agreement with many Central Asian nations. (wiki: "SCO") Iran is very important to that block... the least of which is that Iran has vital sea lanes.
*Today, we are in-position on no less than three sides of Iran.
*Iran, it is constanly reported in the West, "May be doing" this or that.... for 'this or that' reason.
*Many years ago Henry Kissinger said in an interview that Iran NEEDS to develop nuclear energy to produce electricity so that they can leave their oil in the ground.
*Ahmadinejad never said that he wants to blow Israel off the face of the earth. In his speech 25 October, 2005, he made a reference to what another person said about how "Israel will be erased from the record of time"... (my words, not a direct translation)
War, can save America!! (for the Elites) War is being planned for right now. War will start in the Middle East.
The prize is the Caspian Region. The ultimate opponents are Russia and China.
Read 'The Grand Chessboard' by former US National Security Advisor, ZKB (Zbigniew K. Brezinsky) and trust me when I tell you THEY (Russia and China) have read that book AND they are acting as though ZKB knows what f' he's talking about.
A question for everyone:
Who was a top foreign policy advisor to the Barack Obama campaign for presidency?
Hint:
This guy is not concerned about ANY particular streets in "America" beyond his goal. The streets of America (you) will give him, unwittingly, what he needs to control the entire show.
Are you being used?
Do you feel used?
Are you the boss of your life?
If you are not sure... YOU are NOT the boss of your life.
I hear your points. While I've long held the view that the "Cold War" was never over, but just less publicized, it's difficult to view the Arab Spring as a CIA operation, unless it was an operation gone wrong. Israel and Egypt were the US's main allies in the Middle East, and with the outst of Mubarak, the US has all but lost Egypt, and leaves Israel exposed on all sides. This could not have been the intention of the CIA.
Just an example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html?pagewanted=all
There are other very well documented (again from legitimate press not conspiracy sites) examples of State Dept. involvement and by private US firms. Obviously, nothing related to direct CIA involvement would be confirmed so who knows there. I'd be disappointed if they weren't involved at least to the point of monitoring/intelligence.
Yes, but what if CHAOS is a desired end?
This seems to be venturing into the realms of conspiracy theory.
I agree the CIA has toppled many governments and will continue to do so, but, as nonsensical and horrific as this may be, we can find some types of motives for their actions; not necessarily sound motives, but nonetheless.
In the case of the United States government using an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) or some other way to self-destruct, what could possibly be the motive? It seems to me you're stretching very far.
Sir, Madam,
Please PRINT my words AND your response to my words... and then tuck that away with a couple of candles and some matches.... and if I am wrong (someday) you can laugh at my ideas for no less than great entertainment.
And if I am right, you can open it up an read it, and, whether you laugh or cry, you likely will be entertained.
That is indeed a delightful idea. I will indulge, but not without adding my mark of creativity. Instead of printing my response to your words, I will transcribe our texts using a bird's feather as a pen and bird's blood as the ink. Now, be patient, I must catch a bird.
That's funny as hell!! I like you Mr. T., I don't care what anybody says.
and no other person cares what you think as well.
Can't help myself, I like well-placed sarcasm. Besides, it was just a joke, Warren, lighten up. Bad day? And aren't you the one who said 'touche' to his sarcasm in the first place (see below)? How come my comment bothers you more than his? By the way, on another note, I found the other things you said on this thread enlightening and a bit disturbing, prompting me to do a little digging myself, like a little research on Brzezinski and the overthrow of the Shah of Iran.
ZKB is a guy who speaks openly of the desire he and others have. "to kill one million is easier than to control one million" are his words.
Protesting is one thing.
Creating change is another thing.
I do NOT have answers tonight but I will likely pick a singular target and strike hard. All via legal means.... words, embarasment.
My days are all bad and all good.
HaHA. The ruin upon most now, is not of my causing nor is it my future.
Creative thoughts are lacking those who are down today. And THAT will be the end of those who lack the ideas necessary to escape.
I am not happy to write these words.
The truth is not bright.
Sleep at will.
As crude as you think of me now:
I will survive.
What YOU do is YOUR decision.
full stop.
Don't misunderstand me, Warren. I harbor no negative opinion of you. If I gave you that impression it was not my intent. You seem like an intelligent man who knows what the hell he's talking about. Intelligent conversation on this forum is sorely lacking. I welcome it and definitely look forward to your future posts.
Sir,
My clock says 12:20am and I JUST read your words now. How can I say what I feel and be honest, and not mushy.
Thank you.
Your words ring true.
I did not know that other people are so different than me, my words.
I will write more.
I am for real and cry for people who have less than me and are not able to cope.
My eyes water when I shop for food and I see people with empty plastic baskets.
'May I pay for your food today?' I think.
My heart pounds as I think of what I can do and do not do.
My plate is full every day. Ask me for food and we shall feast together, AND, GOD willing, we shall find others to feed at the same time.
Your words above touch me strongly.
We lack not of or for food, and other resources.
We lack creativity.
Rest well and believe in yourself.
In the end that is all you have.
PS. I will be a true and loyal friend. I speak of being alone and yet I have many people who return the attention and love I show to them. Hence my ability to act as though I am so strong... to be alone. I am not alone. I am only as good as those people around me. And I make good choices. If creating a world of good people around you seems unattainable, consider that you have one friend tonight. ME. From this point on we will build you an entire community, many friends. Real people. When you have THAT support you cannot fail. Your people will not let their king/queen fail.
I am great because of the stature and humility of the shoulder(s) I stand upon. Without my quiet army... I may be unable to type words today, ie., dead.
Thank you. We are definitely on the same side of the fence, as are many others on these forums and at the occupy spots around the world. With a little luck and a lot of work we can get enough like-minded people to transform this world into the place it should have become long ago. If we have the time.
you young people today .... kick f*cking ass. my classmates from the sixties.... in 1971 we were 13 years old... do not think there is anything wrong... I think.
I do not talk to them.
They are confused... even from 'rich classes' (Picture the Brentwood part of Los Angeles) some are on their last dime.
(I laugh in the shower!!)
I was poor growing up and today my 'past rich' friends are either:
We have time.
Our lives are not a flicker in time.
Let me see, in 1971 I was . . . . 13 years old (born in '58)! Warren, that's a hell of a coincidence. We grew up in the same era apparently. The world sure has changed, hasn't it? Sometimes it seems like a completely different planet. I try to stay as current as possible though. And I try to remain optimistic.
touche'
The issues are huge and complex. It goes far beyond Wall Street. The stark fact is that in the U.S. corporate interests have influenced public policy. Much of the public policy debate has been hijacked by repelicans who stand together as a block to further those interests.
One of the many consequences has had a negative impact on issues of national security.
Opening two fronts on our War on Terror? In retrospect that was clearly stupid. We could argue the usefulness of creating a black hole for terrorists in the wake of Saddam. We could argue issues of timing. Human rights and our treatment of Iraqi cultural issues and property and the way in which that influences minds throughout the Middle East.
The point is that this movement is not about creating an opening for the spread of Sharia Law.
It is about addressing issues of economic, social, and environmental justice that have been ignored for decades. This is a global movement.
http://www.foei.org/en/what-we-do/economic-justice/latest-news/foei-statement-in-support-of-the-99
http://occupywallst.org/forum/-raise-hight-your-banner-friends-of-the-earth-twee/
The parties have lied to us long enough. There is no global warming.
Well there is - it's here, and it is going to get worse.
I'm not gonna just sit around on my hands. I'm going to do something.
Are you with me?
paybacks a bitch after you guys destoyed the whole world with your bullshit Democracy and Freedom bullshit spiel.
The people have been divided and conquered for centuries. Are you saying OWS are really radical Islam? Or are you saying OWS is a red herring?
No I don't think OWS is radical Islam, but yes, more in lines of a red herring. The movement has shown no desire to get anything accomplished, they just want to cause disruptions and divide the country.
Thank you for clarifying. The thought of a red herring hadn't crossed my mind. I don't think that's what it is, but it is an interesting thought.
read my posts above.
'April' asked me to clarify... and I did best I can today.
Oh sorry, I was responding to workhardplayhard. I'll read your posts all the same.
Well I vote for "Get Money Out"
http://unitedrepublic.org/
I am sorry for being redundant!
An interesting debate
A must read
bunp
I don't care about Israel. As for the rest, you may have something here.
Interesting thread. I'm surprised by many comments. I raised the issue of Occupy being an anarchist setup without the will to represent any other ideology but itself, and with the main ideas of using direct democracy to breed chaos and violent imagery to create a divide between perceived oppressors and victims. I have to say, I feel relieved that some are beginning to understand. Even my harsh critic, looselyhuman, seems to be coming around. There might still be hope to overtake Occupy from the anarchist and use its energy to spring forth a new movement that really represent the 99%, dare I say the 100%. After all, from ashes raise phoenixes.
Now that this point seems to be gaining acceptance, I can start using Glaucon to provide possible solutions, instead of the sophist Thrasymaque whose purpose was to awaken the crowd with his complex and somewhat deceiving arguments. Rest assured, Glaucon is much more straightforward.
Yes, the tenor of today's posts have also lifted my spirits!!! I had been telling myself that the majority of Americans would never embrace ANARCHY and today my hopes are being realized. A political movement may actually grow out of ths.....not what the OWS puppeteers were aiming for. GOD BLESS THE THINKING AMERICAN and bless the rebels that DO have a cause and a brain!!
Do you have any ideas on next steps? looselyhuman and I, above, are brainstorming some things. Can you jump in and tell us what you think?
april and loose. drventure has pointed me to this petition written by breakincode, another disillusioned ows'er. You must get to the bottom of it to see the real meat and the petition itself. It's another splinter group and I like it better than the website you had pointed to earlier in this thread. http://occupywallst.org/forum/so-much-of-whats-here-is-contrary-to-the-actual-mo/
I say this in all seriousness. We should find some Tea Party people and see if the money issue is something they agree with. They are organized already, something this group seems to disapprove of. I belong to a gun forum where a lot of folks feel the same about money in politics but think the occupy movement is all the negative stereotypes you are aware of. I'd imagine I could develop a Tea party contact here in NE IND. Did you see the article today about the meeting Memphis ows and TP had? Obviously, these 2 movements would never combine, but I see nothing wrong with joining with their strength of organization and numbes on this one pressing issue.
There already some Tea Party/OWS meetings happening. I'm not sure to what level of success, but there may be some important points they can agree on and support. I see strong points on both sides and I think focusing on the points that appeal to both sides is a great way to start to work for change. The far swinging Left and Right ideals will take more work...
Research the Tides Center/ Foundation-it finances Adbusters. It finances MoveOn.org. It finances the Ruckus Society. George Soros's Open Society is ALL over this movement. From the magazine that supposedly "came up with" the idea, to the funds used to print the OWS newspaper.
George Soros has openly stated that "the biggest obstacle to globalization is the United States". He recently closed his hedge fund to anyone outside of his family because legislation was passed that mandated transparency for group hedge funds. The man wants nothing more than to bring down the US, and has said so. He's good friends with Stephen Lerner (SEIU) and Van Jones. Do your homework.
Sounds like the Glenn Beck lies where he judges people as guilty by association.
Glenn Beck judges after the manner of his seeing and hearing. He is the "deceived elect."
I like to think of it as judging people by their actions-the real things they do and say, and the intent of those actions. We all judge after the manner of our own seeing and hearing...but if you and I are seeing and hearing two different things, one of us is clearly mistaken. I'm willing to examine anything you present as "facts" that might eventually prove me to be wrong. Are you?
Thank you for these leads.
Wow!! I have been sleeping with my own ideas and not looking for new ideas, like yours. You are spot on with your post.
Welcome to the rabbit hole. The deeper you are willing to go, the darker things get. Worst of all....it's true.
It's been orchestrated world wide by soros and the Agenda 21 people.