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Forum Post: What Occupy taught the unions

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 3, 2012, 8:53 a.m. EST by GirlFriday (17445)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

69 Comments

69 Comments


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[-] 3 points by ShubeLMorgan2 (1088) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Occupy has breathed life into the unions and into the public discourse. Things may look glum today but history and all that is right is on the side of Occupy.

[-] 3 points by ChemLady (576) 2 years ago

I wonder just who is using whom. Occupy raises the issue of inequity, takes any and all bad PR for demonstrations, the unions step in on just their issues and make political points and take any political gain. While Occupy may have taken the lead in switching the debate from government waste to personal economics, I think they are being used. You can't truly stay out of politics when you accept help from the unions.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

OWS has always been political

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

this is true - yet many of the kids don't quite get that. I had several discussions on that issue when I first joined the forum.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

everyone wants time for personal freedom

political affiliation can restrict choice

[-] 3 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I dont' think that was it - the ones I spoke with were adamant that this movement is not political

which is just silly

[-] -2 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

ows people are pawns of soros, acorn, seiu and van jones.

[-] 2 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

You left off bigfoot.

Why do they always leave off bigfoot.

[-] -1 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

because while you're a pawn , you're not an organizer.

[-] 2 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

And who are YOU a pawn of?

Who or what have YOU fought for, at your own peril?

I won't hold my breath for a clear answer from you, as I fear you are incapable.

[-] -2 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

so, you admit you're a pawn.

[-] 1 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

No I didn't, that was your assumption, as was your accusation.

Used to avoid answering a question?

[-] -3 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

you're a pawn, live with it or change.

[-] 1 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

Do you have the latest report from Glenn Beck?

He loves Soros.

I'm still not holding my breath, for a clear answer to the questions I asked you.

No point in turning blue, for a flake.

[-] -1 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

i am my own person. YOU clearly are not.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

While union organizers stress the importance of the movement’s autonomy, they are also joining in, providing advice, experience, supplies and access to money and space. Many believe, as one Chicago labor activist put it, that “Occupy is too big to fail.” In fact, the Occupy movement is in the vanguard of labor, enticing workers into the streets, making them negotiate harder and think bigger.

[-] 2 points by economicallydiscardedcitizen (761) 2 years ago

Go Teamsters!

http://www.teamster.org/content/occupy-wall-street-resolution

OCCUPY WALL STREET RESOLUTION

The International Brotherhood of Teamsters, representing 1.4 million hardworking men and women throughout the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico, acting through its General Executive Board hereby adopts the following Resolution this 15th day of November 2011:

WHEREAS, "Occupy Wall Street” is the foundation of the nationwide protest against economic inequality, unfair tax structure, bank bailouts and corporate greed that has affected every worker in the United States, including every member of the Teamsters Union, and brought the country to its current economic crisis;

WHEREAS, just as "Occupy Wall Street" demands that the nation respond to the unrelenting pressure on the middle class, on workers and on the unemployed, the Teamsters have exposed the "War on Workers” being waged by billionaires and CEOs who seek to blame working people for the state of the economy and to "fix" the economy by giving to the rich and taking from the middle class;

WHEREAS, the Teamsters share the outrage of “Occupy Wall Street” over the foreclosure crisis, over out-of-control health care costs, over attacks on pensions, over the fact that corporations are sitting on more cash than anytime in history while millions of able-bodied workers cannot find a job, and that Teamster children may not achieve the standard of living their parents achieved and may never own a home or a pension;

WHEREAS, Union members must fight to keep the gains they have achieved through collective bargaining as corporate-backed politicians attack public sector workers with the same ruthlessness they exhibited in the past 11 months, and private sector employers are following their example;

WHEREAS, just as workers’ rights to organize, picket and strike are abrogated based on unjustified allegations of a threat to public safety and health, “Occupy Wall Street's” Constitutionally protected right to a peaceful protest and assembly must be protected and cannot be curtailed or contained based on unsupported claims of public safety;

WHEREAS, the lockout of 43 Teamsters art handlers by the profitable auction house Sotheby’s has become for “Occupy Wall Street” a symbol of the unrelenting greed of the 1 percent, and “Occupy Wall Street” has for weeks acted in solidarity with the locked-out Teamsters from Local 814; WHEREAS, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg ordered Liberty Park cleared of all “Occupy Wall Street” protesters and the New York Police Department entered the park with police in riot gear backed up by numerous police vehicles, including a bulldozer, evicting occupiers, destroying property and arresting dozens of occupiers and protesters, including New York City Councilmember Ydanis Rodriguez and District Leader Paul Newell, in the early morning hours of November 15, 2011, and WHEREAS, attorneys working as the Liberty Park Legal Working Group obtained a temporary restraining order directing that occupiers be allowed back on the premises with their belongings.

NOW, THEREFORE, it is resolved as follows:

The International Brotherhood of Teamsters and the working men and women it represents wholly supports and endorses Occupy Wall Street and opposes any effort to unreasonably restrict, contain or stop this lawful protest; and The International Brotherhood of Teamsters commends and extends its appreciation to New York Supreme Court Judge Lucy Billings for issuing a restraining order that restores the Constitutional rights of “Occupy Wall Street” to peacefully protest.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

noted

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Is there someone with a hacked version of your screen name? I'm pretty sure I've seen legit posts from your name, like this post, and also anti-ows posts as well.

I'm assuming the hacked version uses a capital "i" as the L.

[-] -3 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

At one time they did. I am not anti OWS. While I recognize a few problems with the Unions. I do support them. Why ever would you think otherwise?

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

For example your comment has 16 down votes right now. Like I mentioned before I have seen some ignorant posts and extremely anti-OWS comments and such from your name, which I'm assuming is the "hacked" version. I have seen it done to others that have L's or capital i's in their user name. There be trolls under this bridge, arghh.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

Oh, that was the Thrasy bots and his intimidation tactic.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

I doubt he had bots. He probably just had way too much time on his hands and had already watched every single porno that existed. That is the only explanation for such a waste of time. Hahaha

Have a good one.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the Unions are enjoying public support once again

lock out membership has diminished the unions voice

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (34849) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

For those of you just checking in:

Read the post. Exercise that gray matter.

Then take part in direct Lobbying using the Peoples Voice/Lobby - sign a petition to end corporate personhood.

Petition from CREDOACTION to end Corporate person-hood.

http://act.credoaction.com/r/?r=745043&id=34439-4904244-%3DMldmHx&t=7

[-] 0 points by maplelane (2) 2 years ago

What I cannot figure out is that OWS does not like big banks but it has an account with Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo is a unionized bank and the name of that union is SEIU. SEIU is or was funding OWS from the start and even recruiting members beforehand. Now why is OWS, SEIU's lapdog even though it is connected to Wells Fargo???

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

define seiu

[-] -1 points by maplelane (2) 2 years ago

A crooked union ran by Andy Stern

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

by letter S.E.I.U

and another name I don't recognize

who is Andy Stern ?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Service Employees International Union

now I know you could have done that - must be you were hoping for elaboration on the . . . um . . . repelican assertion of corruption on the part of Mr. Stern . . .

I doubt you'll get anything beyond sputtering - righies, perpetually and irrefutably wrong as they are, just don't like unions.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

More proof that Obama is a fraud.

Nothing will ever change. The media practically chooses the democratic nominees and the republican nominees. Democrats always vote for the dem nominee to make sure a republican doesn't win and republicans always vote for the republican nominee to make sure the democrats don't win. It's a losing process as we've seen the past 11 years. Obviously the republicans are shittier, but that doesn't make Obama a good president. We need REAL liberals in office like Dennis Kucinich. He should have been president in 2008. Just a prime example of how the media chooses the nominees.

[-] -2 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

the unions ( seiu) are backers of ows.

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

no one is going to watch URL. Put some thought into your post

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

Not interested in your response, Fidel99. You have already proven that you are not capable of discussion.

[-] -1 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

that's funny coming from you who uses profanity as your only argument.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

what is this? clean up week

TI-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

I back up my arguments. You do not.

[-] -1 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

you just point to other people's articles, that's high school level debating.

[-] -3 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

No. I actually do debate but with people that are capable of it. You are not.

[-] 1 points by Fidel99 (23) 3 minutes ago There's no revolution coming. And even if there was (there' not) OWS folks wouldn't win. OWS is a small percent of the population, there is no momentum to the movement. it's over kid, ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink

You have failed.

[-] 2 points by flip (5207) 2 years ago

New York City activists from OWS spent weeks planning the November 17 day of action alongside organizers from unions and community organizations, including the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). But when the Occupiers showed up for the day's culminating rally and march over the Brooklyn Bridge, they found a completely different event from the one they had planned.

Instead of a series of platforms for coordinated "people's mics" that had been agreed to at planning meetings, there was a blaring sound system, an emcee and a series of people pre-selected to tell their stories.

Instead of the plan for a "lightly marshaled event" in which protesters would be led to the pedestrian path of the bridge, but free to go wherever they wanted, there were hundreds of marshals working alongside riot cops to keep the streets clear. Like the sound system and the emcee, these marshals were provided by the SEIU. (Don't be too hard on the marshals, by the way--many of whom are hard-working union organizers who may well have hated their assignment that night.)

According to one OWS activist, a lot of the people running the rally with their headsets and two-way radios tried hard to ignore the gazes of organizers with whom they had spent countless meeting hours not mentioning any of these plans for what actually took place.

For most protesters, the SEIU takeover of the event probably only registered as a series of oddities. Why were people shouting "Mic check!" over a deafening sound system? Why were marshals chanting, "Whose streets? Our streets!" as they worked with police to keep us on the sidewalks?

The effect was like a clueless dad trying to use his daughter's new slang. But the organizers from OWS knew what was taking place.


WHY DID the SEIU take over the march? Let's back up first to consider the context.

It's true, as the OWS website declared after the raid on Zuccotti Park a few days before, that "you can't evict an idea." But you can steal it. You can empty it of its content until all that's left is a slogan that used to mean something.

For example: "We need a leader willing to fight for the needs of the 99 percent." That's SEIU President Mary Kay Henry announcing the union's early endorsement of a presidential candidate in 2012: Barack Obama, the largest recipient of Wall Street campaign contributions in the history of the world.

A few days later, the SEIU announced plans for a rally in Washington, D.C., because "congressional supporters of the 1 percent blocked President Obama's latest job proposals." I support more rallies for jobs, of course, but you know that the SEIU will not be issuing any criticisms of Obama's job proposals as too little and much too late.

And the name of this early campaign rally in D.C.? "Occupy Congress." Glenn Greenwald, America's bullshit detector laureate, wrote:

Having SEIU officials...shape, fund, dictate and decree an anti-GOP, pro-Obama march is about as antithetical as one can imagine to what the Occupy movement has been. And pretending that the ongoing protests are grounded in the belief that the GOP is the party of the rich while the Democrats are the party of the working class is likely to fool just about nobody other than those fooled by that already.

[-] -3 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

I don't have a lot of time right this very second but I would first like to point out two things that are inherently important.

November 17, did they or did they not have people with some type of sign (in Portland it was pink armbands) indicating to the others that they were willing to go to jail? Did they get the necessary permits?

Secondly, and this is huge. SEIU will endorse Democratic candidates until the moment in time when a Rethuglican supports unions. Why would you expect any union to support someone that is hell bent on destroying them?

Everything else will have to wait until I return.

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

You must be trying to use Saul Alinsky's Rule number 5. Either that or you are in the denial part of your grief (for the dead OWS movement). Next stage: anger, though you may already be there.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

Actually, it kind of goes like this. There are a multitude of issues that must be addressed and they haven't been. Let's say that all OWS protesters folded up their tents and went home at 6PM. You will still have those people who live in tents because they have no choice. You cannot ever ignore this again. You have no choice but to look at affordable housing. You have no choice but to look at the laws of your little hometown. You have no choice but to look at the stagnate wages. You have no choice but to look at the unsafe working conditions in many industries. You have no choice but to recognize the farm to table movement. You have no choice but to recognize social justice.

You see, you may no longer stand idly by and pretend ignorance. Your time of denial is over and that is what is crumbling. The smell of death, fear and defeat is your own. You cannot stop the networking that has been achieved and will be achieved in the future.

[-] -3 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

I see that you are in the Denial stage. Your social justice rational, says that the American economy and its social structure is going to crumble and people like me will be defeated by the strong OWS networking . If this were true and i've heard these rubbish theories from other left wing loons, you have several wrong assumptions, you assume that no one would stand up to them, also you assume a stagnate or declining economy, People like you existed during the depression, and thought that they could make the U.S. communist, it never happened, never will.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

No, your denial is going to crumble, honey. See, the only thing that is giving you a good beat down is your very own ignorance. Nobody has to do anything. There is no brazen full fledged communist take over. This is a country that must do right by its citizens. Not every win is for multinational corporations. It is a balance.

[-] -3 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

so this social justice change (code word for socialism/communist) is just going to happen magically? A country as complex as the U.S. and you can make this prediction. Wow! You know what they say about predictions, predictions are hard to make, especially about the future.

[-] 3 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

You just have to stop thinking like a commie, Fidel.

I know it's hard for you, but stick to it and you'll get it.

Social, does not mean socialism.

Community, does not mean communism.

Just keep repeating that.

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

please tell me then what social justice is? what's the plan man?

[-] 2 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

You're still thinking like a commie.

It's kind of like mitigating the guys who steal your lunch money.

you're not the guy who steals lunch money, are you?

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

that's funny! i can't tell what you are, maybe you are just deranged.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

Social justice is not code word for socialism/communism. You have already started out with the wrong definition.

[-] -1 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

What is social justice then? Please enlighten me.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I've skimmed it - it's a long article, but very interesting, and important in understanding some of the initial organizational dynamics that occurred in Sept. and it spells out what must occur if we are to really gain traction this spring and summer.

The Occupy Movement and the Unions have got to work together -

  • In Chicago an organizer with SEIU who wished to remain anonymous called the Occupy movement “a game changer.” He said his union “recognized that it can no longer focus just on what happens in the workplace. Our members who work in a hospital go home to a community that is being devastated by foreclosures and school closures.”

  • Next fall the presidential election could see both sides at odds as occupiers will be decrying both parties as hopelessly corrupted by corporate dollars, even as organized labor mobilizes tens of thousands of union members to get out the vote for the Democrats and Obama.

  • The Chicago organizer says, “The revolution is not going to come through the labor movement.” And that is true, at least in its current configuration. But the revolution that many occupiers dream about can’t happen without workers either. If the Occupy movement keeps growing, then organized labor will have to decide which side it is really on.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17445) 2 years ago

I agree that they are going to have to work together. However, if we follow the other articles of the Koch heads doing what they can to separate the Unions from OWS then we know where it is initiating from. That said, all of the people that are involved in OWS can do two things at once. They are only prohibited as much as they allow the Koch heads misinformation campaign to rule. OWS has joined forces with others or, more importantly, others have often united with OWS.

[-] 0 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

There's no revolution coming. And even if there was (there' not) OWS folks wouldn't win. OWS is a small percent of the population, there is no momentum to the movement. it's over kid,

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you are delusional - and likely possessed of sufficient capacity to reason that you remain hopeful that such statements will help produce that result -

and guess what . . . .

  • you're so fuked
[-] 0 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

i'm so fuked? what's that? There is no revolution coming, that really bugs you doesn't it?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

say whatever you want

you fucking righties, perpetually and irrefutably wrong as you are, insist there is no global warming -

it's no surprise therefore, to find you completely blind to the discontent that has swept this nation, and rooted in the hearts of citizens in very city, town and hamlet.

Blind you are - and for very good reason. That discontent is going to overthrow major chunks of repelican policy and party dogma.

  • the repelican party is done

and you can tweet that . . ..

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

There's no revolution coming. Your world is falling apart...zenpuppy

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

it is amazing the degree to which you repelicans censor the information you let into your pea sized brains - must be a defense mechanism to prevent overload on the synaptic circuitry that is pretty much operating in a state of perpetual overload as it is.

just amazing.

I'm tempted to provide you with links to lists of actions, cities, and issues that the movement has put out, and links to the various ways the term Occupy Wall Street and its vocalizations of discontent have entered the political discourse and American culture . . .

It would be voluminous . . .

but I can see you are

  • too heavily taxed already

so I'll spare ya . . . .

bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .


so I think I'll tweet instead . . .

[-] -2 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

nobody cares ows=losers

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

from Forbes.com

  • the “Move Your Money” project on November 5 to protest new fees that the too-big-to-fail banks such as Bank of America (BAC) and Citigroup (C) were preparing to impose on depositors to compensate for lost revenue from new regulations limiting debit card interchange fees.

  • While major commercial banks saw capital outflows, the National Association of Federal Credit Unions reported that last October alone its members received $4.5 billion in new deposits, an increase industrywide of about .5%. The industry expects another year of rapid growth in 2012.

  • The Occupy movement has focused on “greedy” bankers imposing new fees to make up for bad decisions in the past. It has also been doing a good job of explaining the advantages of a community-based credit union that typically charges few fees, and returns its profits to its customers in the form of higher interest rates on deposits and lower interest rates on loans.

[-] 1 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

Oh Fidel, you're such a silly commie!

You should go smoke a cigar and relax.

[-] 0 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

You must be confusing me with some other Fidel :) don't be such a racist, i'm american. What's shooz ? some muslim name? or is it short for shoo flies?

[-] 1 points by shooz (18066) 2 years ago

Hmmmm, that's all the more reason for you to stop being such a silly commie.

Only in the mind of a commie would cigars be racist.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  • too heavily taxed already

.

.

bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .

[-] 0 points by Fidel99 (-2) from Ventura, CA 2 years ago

zenpup, you sound smart sometimes then you go into those weird hha ha's ...What's wrong with you?

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13713) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I'm fucking insane

It is a cautionary tale . . . . you should piss off now