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Forum Post: What is the Question?

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 7:12 p.m. EST by iseeamuse (155)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

After only seriously considering this event recently, and after much research about Occupy Wall Street, and without having been at the event yet, it seems that in order to be taken seriously the movement needs to come to some sort of consensus on what it wants, and how far it will go to achieve it.

So as a whole the Occupiers need to determine what kind of change it wants to see. How far will it go? When all is said and done will Wall St., the Stock Markets, Capitalism, Globalism, Money and other such institutions be allowed to exist? Will there even be a need for them? The question at it's base seems to be about the very structure of our economy.

We need to ask ourselves when considering such institutions, why do they exist? Are they meeting their purpose? How should they change?

Is our economic system working? What kind of economic system do we want? What is the purpose of an economy? What are it's governing limitations?

Should we change it? How?

How do we use our avenues of governance to enact these changes? How do we ensure that the change is seen through? Who do we put in charge? How do we hold them accountable?

What is the question, Occupiers?



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[-] 2 points by iseeamuse (155) 12 years ago

If everyone has a right to life, choice, and means, how do we manage the responsibilities and achieve and maintain these principles? At the basis everyone must have access to air, water, food, shelter and clothing. They must be allowed choices on how they want to live, and if none are present they must be afforded the means to create their own options. That means all people must have equal access to education, transportation, and occupational opportunity. Beyond the basics everything else is a question of value. What and how we value a thing.

[-] 2 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

[-] 1 points by barheadedgoose (5) 12 years ago

complex thinking is great. but again plain language is need to make complexity actionable. there's enough discontent potential to tilt the balance, and enough science of all kinds to pick and pull strings. the issue is who's gonna shoot the magic arrow through the loopholes and hit the gunpowder barrel.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 12 years ago

fine point. I'll tamp down the powder if you drop in the ball?

[-] 1 points by barheadedgoose (5) 12 years ago

someone suggested we need democracy to replace oligarchy. feasible by pushing for more direct (including online) voting on major issues. representative democracy not good enough anymore. but then who's gonna tell people what to think about and vote for--not the media thank you.

[-] 1 points by barheadedgoose (5) 12 years ago

The political, economic, and administrative institutions (such as police) are closely related, so they should be considered together in terms of their effectiveness in serving the large public (rather than specific interest groups).
Someone said the goal of this movement is "to oppose the growing power of the ruling class." That sounds OK but is not specific enough for a movement. HOW? People need to see and agree to specific actions that would accomplish that goal. If those actions look FEASIBLE, more people will join. So, it's time to develop specific plans of action (long terms and short terms; international, national, regional, local). Coordination, speed, large numbers of participants and supporters. Put everything in plain language that is also meaningful (can drive a powerful message to) incumbent politicians. And thank you all for taking more responsibility for our future.

[-] 1 points by Rjbig (10) 12 years ago

Our Demand? Make the Promise Real Robert Biegler, Oct 4 2011 I am not Anonymous, I am the 99%

Today we stand together as the Sun just begins to set on this chapter of Civilization. We have achieved so much, and while many have paid the ultimate sacrifice to get where we are today, let us not feel remorse let us not dwell on guilt, for all of the suffering we have learned so much, and now we can understand and communicate, as we have never been able to do before. This evening we gather together, all over the World, to Celebrate our freedom, Our Togetherness, Our Love. Today we light a candle because surely as any Birthday Celebration, this day needs to be celebrated! We have done it. We have finally shed the chains of Oppression, Fear, and Greed. Together we will make real the Truth that All Men are Created Equal with the inalienable rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, and no we will not just make this real for Americans for we hold these truths to be self evident for All Mankind. We are all people, we are all Equal, and we all have value. We will not be declared of lesser value just because we are not born here or there, or because our skin is not the proper color, or our religion is not your religion. We will no longer allow anyone to devalue us because we are female, or male, or both, or neither. We will not let you subtract from our value because we are too tall, or to short, or the wrong heritage. We will no longer be declared a lesser person because we have no wealth. We are all equal in every respect and with all the rights that that entails. We all have equal right to the air we breathe, to the water we drink, to the trees and the land and all the minerals contained therein. We do not forfeit any of our rights because of whom or what you may perceive to be a deficiency. It is not for anyone to decide, these are INALIENABLE rights, which cannot be separated from me as long as I exist. By my existence, alone I am granted these rights, and they cannot be revoked.

But just what are these INALIENABLE RIGHTS?

THE RIGHT TO LIFE: This right means that each, and every one of us, every man woman and child and all of those to come after us has the RIGHT TO EXIST. No person has the right to KILL you for any reason. This right is inalienable, it cannot be revoked. For a person to exist they must have some basic things such as clean air to breathe, clean water to drink, food, clothing, and shelter. All persons have the equal right to healthcare, just as they so do the air we breathe, or the water we drink. From Today on, we are all working together. We either live together or we die together but from now we are together There is no us or them. There is only You and I.

Right to Liberty: This is the right to choose. Every person has the right to think and feel and to do as they wish. However, no person can revoke these three basic rights, Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. You are your own and only master. You cannot be indentured in any way. We all have the right to travel as we wish to go where we want without question or restraint. We have as much right to all property as anyone else. We all have equal ownership of the World and everything in, on, or around it as far as humanity reaches no matter how far that may be. We all have the right to Privacy, and this can not be revoked by another’s right to liberty. Liberty is the freedom of Choice. A person cannot be forced to work, or pray, procreate, or hide themselves in any way.

Right to the Pursuit of Happiness: This is the Right to ACCESS. Each of us takes a unique path in Pursuit of Happiness. Happiness is a different thing for each of us, but we all have the right to pursue our own path. This right guarantees ACCESS to the means of Production and all that entails. This means we all have an EQUAL right to EDUCATION, RESEARCH, TRANSPORTATION COMMUNICATION, ENERGY, INFRASTRUCTURE AND ALL FACILITIES.

This is our Framework for the Days ahead, Now we must work together to build a bridge form where we are today to that bright, bright future where we can all live in Peace. We can all hold our heads up High for we are truly equals. Our tasks are Great, but the rewards are even greater, for now all men will be allowed to create and to participate to their full potential. We have many hurdles to overcome and our time is short but we can achieve our goals. We can build a new world, we can build a free and just society, and we can live in Peace. Our resources are vast, as we put those resources to use for the benefit of all of us we will be amazed at just how much we can do. Tomorrow looks very bright indeed, I feel like a child the night before the Gift Giving, I can hardly wait for tomorrow and the Wonderful Gift we Give our Children By doing This Today

[-] 1 points by Debby (7) 12 years ago

October 4, 2011

The problem is crime committed by the highest powers that be, because they refuse to regulate the federal crimes committed by the financial elite. There's your purpose.

You know what? This is what happened to me and the main bank that did this was not a national bank when they did it. We should take our money out of banks period. Yes, in a mattress would be safer place to put your money than any bank in this country today.

In the vein of “Too Big To Jail” and “Occupy Wall Street Protests On The Brooklyn Bridge” you should know about an unknown, which I’m here to tell you about. Financial matters are much worse than the public realizes and my story affects all Americans. Yet, what’s happened to me sits behind closed doors of secrecy starting with US Attorney General Holder.

The truth is we are living in a financial holocaust created by the small banks, national banks and financial institutions; sanctioned by our government authorities.

Did you know that any financial institution can pluck millions of dollars right out of a named trust account and get away with it in this country? The victim is then instantly thrown into the streets, with their credit unlawfully destroyed; unable to get employment and does not qualify for government assistance. In my case, I was an independently wealthy woman who spent her life raising three beautiful daughters and had just started a new business at forty eight years old; I'm now sixty two. And, not one government authority will investigate this; even after ten years of complaints made to the proper authorities. Should the public not know about this financial institution, so they can protect themselves? Besides if they aren't charged and prosecuted they'll just do it over and over again to millions more consumers.

One would have to see what I’ve seen and experienced to realize how corrupt our United States of America has become or they would have to hear about it from the authorities. Since it’s the authorities hiding these horrendous federal crimes, the victims go unheard…continually violated, and dying in the streets. I feel like I've been hit by the mafia.

What's more one can contact all their congressmen, and women, assemblymen, and women plus their senators; begging for their help and they'll ignore you. You can even write the president as a last resort...he ignores you too.

Someone needs to interview US Attorney General Holder, Attorney General Harris, Attorney General Cox or even Governor Brown and ask, “ It’s your job, and our taxes pay you to investigate these horrendous crimes and prosecute the financial institutions. Would you like to comment on why you wouldn’t investigate the federal crimes committed against this trust and woman? What other federal crimes committed against the consumer by a bank or national financial institution have you ignored and whom else has had all their assets embezzled by their own bank? And, while you’re at it please explain to the public why the state bars are hiding criminals that happen to be attorneys?” So far, the only way the public will hear my outrageous story is my book.

I've written this from behind four thin walls of a tent, where I've resided for two years.

Both the mainstream and alternative media refuse to talk or write about this. And, we wonder why our country is falling apart? From my perspective one of the major problems in the United States are the serious financial crimes being committed by the financial institutions while our authorities know all about this and purposely ignore it. The authorities' corruptions are the bottom line issues in this country. Does this sound like another Hitler situation? Only this time the killings start by destroying people financially. It doesn't matter how many zeros are involved with the assets a consumer has...everyone is subject to these crimes and there will be nothing done about it...period. reply permalink edit delete