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Forum Post: What is the plan after the May Day occupation? What do you expect to happen? What do you want to happen?

Posted 2 years ago on May 1, 2012, 9:34 a.m. EST by chatman (-478)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

maybe now is an opportune moment to explain what this movements expectations are.

157 Comments

157 Comments


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[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I want the elections to be national holidays

[-] 1 points by nichole (525) 2 years ago

A climate change-- more spirited protests, greater turnout, less fear and acquiescence among the population, greater activism, solidarity, struggle, autonomy, improved networks. Police presence in NYC on May 1 was not justified, we are being pinned against a wall and must break loose.

[-] 1 points by rickMoss (435) 2 years ago

Exactly! When you guys get tired of playing games - Join the real revoluution with a plan, a strategy and a vision.

The REVOLUTION has to take place in your HEAD first! So REPEAT after me - I am not a Slave! I am not a Slave! I am not a Slave!

"WAKE UP PEOPLE!” - THE REAL REVOLUTION HAS STARTED! Protesting is not enough. There is a better way to fight back. Read “Common Sense 3.1” at http://www.revolution2.osixs.org – “entirely”

FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM (Or we will continue to fail! - "As always")

How else can I say this? "We Are Free!" http://WeAreFree.osixs.org "Spread the News"

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

Who exactly are you talking to? What part of leaderless movement did you not get? There are many splinter groups who have different aims. For example, in Dallas, Texas, they protested to end the fed. Also try reading the mission statement on the home page. In short, try thinking for yourself and then you won't want from your own ignorance.

[-] 1 points by SirWilliam (1) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I expect to feel a little less frightened and a little more confident due to my actions today.

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[-] 0 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

What is your plan? What are your expectations? What do you hope for? I am sure everyone is waiting for a sincere and helpful contribution to solving the country's problems from you. Why are you spending your time here?

[-] 1 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

I am all on board with the Ryan budget plan or simpson bowels plan.
Your turn.

[-] -1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

Nearly, Hmmm? Right wing social engineering, I believe Newt called it.

"What are your expectations? What do you hope for? I am sure everyone is waiting for a sincere and helpful contribution to solving the country's problems from you. Why are you spending your time here?"

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Newt is a corporatist. Most conservative dont want the gov partnering up with the multinationals and creating massive regulations that drown out the little guy.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

Speaking of most conservatives, google this:

Five myths about conservative voters frank Luntz

It is very interesting and shows there is a disconnect between the conservatives in the population and their politicians.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

There is a disconnect between the entire nation and their politicians. Hence OWS. There was a decent amount of normal and even some Tea at Occupy TAmpa at the beginning.

Until the media had its way, then it was all downhill.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

This isn't easy and never will be I am afraid. A heavy lift, as they say.

BTW, I have a nephew in Tampa. Planned to visit but some health issues surfaced.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Come down during the RNC. Watch thousands of people protest against people they dont vote for, along with thousands more that are cheering a fascist moron.

The encore is in Charlotte.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

I am kind of wary of large numbers of idiots (drunken idiots) with concealed guns. At least in Charlotte the locals will be the only ones packin'?

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Oh, you think creating regulations is what they team up to do? Well aren't you just the little babe in the woods!

[-] 1 points by Craiggiedangit (99) 2 years ago

Oh, yeah, as a small business owner, I can tell you most definitely that I have no trouble at all sifting through a 2,000 page regulation bill. My kids and I read it at the dinner table.

Sure would hate to be a corporation, with the regulation and all, because they can't just hire a team of lawyers to sift through the bill full-time like I can.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

Which 2000 page regulation bill have you sifted through lately, and why.

[-] 0 points by Craiggiedangit (99) 2 years ago

Sigh.

That was sarcasm.

Regulatory compliance is much more costly at the small scale. That's why the 1%ers controlling the government get their pet politicians to pass bills, the bigger the better, to make it harder for small business owners like me to grow our businesses.

I can't hire a lawyer to sift through 2,000 pages of legislation to see how it affects me. And I sure don't have time to do it myself, all for my one little store.

But Wal-Mart can hire one person to memorize the whole bill, (heck, their lobbyists probably wrote it anyway) and enforce it for all of their 2,000 stores, at minimal cost.

See the difference?

Corporations don't lose when regulations are passed, because their lobbyists are the ones writing them. Nothing changes. If the public is angry, and regulation is inevitable, they just need to make sure it is the "right" regulation, and voila. Public placated, profits rolling again.

[-] -1 points by GypsyKing (8719) 2 years ago

This is such a minimalistic critique of what our real problems are as a nation and a species that I really don't know what to say except to ask that you look, if not beyond your front door, at least out the window once in awhile. You think we can solve our problems by reducing regulations?

That's the right-wing view, and what's wrong with it is that it is simply so simplistic it doesn't even begin to see the big picture, much less solve our problems.

But of course that's just a jingle they sing for the chumps anyway.

[-] 0 points by Craiggiedangit (99) 2 years ago

Oop, there you go putting words in my mouth.

I realize some regulation is needed. But they should be simple and concise enough for the average citizen to go over in an afternoon. I am against 2,000 page regulation bills, not regulation bills.

As far as the average person goes, most regulation may as well be written in Greek.

I hope you don't claim to be there for the little guy, when I'm out here fighting Wal-Mart and trying to make a living.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

We can at least start to end our problems by removing the fascist elements from our leadership positions.

If that is the first time you have ever heard of that, then you are just further proving you are either way far back in this movement, or you simply dont care to look any deeper, it might shake up your entrenched beliefs

[-] -1 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

you still didnt tell me your plan. your turn.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

You didn't turn in your homework:"What are your expectations? What do you hope for? I am sure everyone is waiting for a sincere and helpful contribution to solving the country's problems from you. Why are you spending your time here?"

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Hi brightonsage,

Have missed your posts at theMultitude.org and we both continue asking ernest questions...

Might I suggest the "Occupy the Vote" topic at theMultitude.org ? Perhaps a reunion is in order...

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

I was checking out the MTude yesterday. Will check it out. Good to hear your evoice.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Well some folks will try killing people because they are too rich (that's one way to reduce the 1 % population).

Are people in this forum guilty of fomenting violence?:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cleveland-bomb-plot-20120502,0,3029605.story

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

It is inappropriate to level such a horrible accusation against millions of your fellow Americans who are protesting for the improvement of a situation that is hurting you as well as 99% of the country. Whatever went on in Cleveland was an aberration. As in not representative. Generalizing like this is beneath us. That is how racists view the world. That is a tactic used to label good people with bad acts. Is that what you are about?

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Do you mean your inflammatory posts? In any event I do not think any posts on this site foment violence.

But...

It is inappropriate to level such a horrible accusation against millions of your fellow Americans who are protesting for the improvement of a situation that is hurting you as well as 99% of the country. Whatever went on in Cleveland was an aberration. As in not representative. Generalizing like this is beneath us. That is how racists view the world. That is a tactic used to label good people with bad acts.

Is that what you are about?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Debate is healthy and forges compromise, but much of the writing in this forum is just insulting and profane. That kind of hate turns opponents into non-humans. Some people that are already on the edge use that rhetoric as justification for violence.

So the question remains, does this forum incite violence?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

No! Do you think so? if so how so?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

About one year ago a maniac went crazy and shot up a super market in AZ killing several people as seriously injuring Rep Giffords.

Sarah Palin was accused of inciting violence because she published a map targeting politicians for defeat in up-coming elections.

Palin's choice of a bulls-eye target on a may have been enough to push an already unstable person over the edge. That kind of influence may have been a factor in pushing the Cleveland bridge bombers to violence.

Many posts in this form degrade into insults and generalizations that paint entire groups with outrageous acts and beliefs that, aside from being wrong, provide justification for violence in the minds of a few trouble individuals; Just like Palin.

http://voices.yahoo.com/arizona-shooting-puts-sarah-palin-7580584.html?cat=9

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Thats a leap. certainly we should refrain from name calling. We should all disavow violence but crazy people will find a reason. I'm not concerned and I'm not name calling.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Do you think that the Palin criticism was a leap?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I think the guy who shot Giffords was already on the edge. We can't really stop every nut from perpetrating violence. We should refrain from hateful posts and get on with the business of addressing real issues.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

What about posts like this from above? Does this incite violence:?

↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by trashyharry (12) from Waterville, NY 7 hours ago I sometimes feel uncomfortable around the peaceful#OWS protest.but I speak for myself when I say that my favorite picture on earth is the one taken of the dictator Mussolini,along with his favorite prostitute and familiar lackeys hanging from a gas station awning.What do I want to happen?I hope that someday the entire 1% including children,females and their lackeys will end in the same condition all around the world.Unfortunately,I'm old now and I don't think I will be alive when it happens.I live now in a world that reflects the values of the 1%-boarded up stores.fly-by night tattoo parlours,casinos,dope holes,strip malls,slums and fast food joints,adult book stores and strip clubs.We have all this ugliness because it is t he kind of economy that is advantageous to the 1% and nobody else.I really would give anything to machine gun a whole family of you evil bloodclots-the number of people who belong to #OWS who currently agree is small,but the cruel tyranny of the rich bloodsucking elite has yet to reach its zenithDU&BUTRASH

↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by moneyandgreedprevails (0) 8 hours ago

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

This is disjointed, illogical, not serious! These type of posts I disregard out of hand. This person needs help. THEY may resort to violence. It is not indicative of the people I have met at ows. More likely a right wing extremist like the Palin crew. Someone would have to be on an edge to be influenced to do violence. Perhaps we can ignore them. Perhaps there is a process to ban hateful posters.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Do you think that ' trashyharry ' is on the edge? Is he being egged-on by other posts on this site? Is he influencing any one else that may be on the edge?

One additional question, do you suspect that the ' trashyharry ' post would have been allowed if it was referring to any minority other than the 1%?

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

He seems troubled and therefore on the edge. I don't think he has incited violence. I think his problems go beyond anything he has seen on these forums. I know there isn't a big problem in this country of violence against the 1%. With the millions of people joining ows, I haven't seen any notable violence from ows. I have seen and heard them push non violence so they are not inciting violence. I think we would more likely find violent references toward minorities on right wing extremist forums. Although we got those people here sometimes just to make trouble. What do you think?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

What about the five young men in Cleveland? They tried to kill people because they were part of the 1%. Who influenced them? Were they were members of occupy Cleveland?

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I'm not interested in "nowtheendbegins". It is clearly just right wing hatefulness. and I don't believe the end is near. Too negative, is it 2nd coming related.? the republican party/conservative movement appears to be controlled by religious fanatics from the south who have forgotten how love dominates faith. Please join the movement that seeks to improve the life of all Americans. Choose love, not hate. We need you. And you need us. We need each other, thats groovy, oh yeah.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

So your list repeats cleveland, and seatle. Isolated, not indicative of the entire movement. The nyc story is of a group that ows did not support. That group representive 3 or 4 people out of 30 thousand.. Please do the math. the LA video is one of many, many videos that show only non violnt efforts. you don't appear to want to build the change we need. You seem to want to tear down. You appear to be doing the bidding of the people who are working against the working class. We need you with us against violence and against unfairness towards the 99%

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Your "list" repeats the cleveland events. I will review your articles but you cannot deny that ows is millions strong and that they espouse non violence I know this because I am invloved. These are isolated incidents. They do not represent the movement.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

What about this guy?:

part of the kinda gentler o bomb ya foreign policy supporter

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Isolated incident. FBI convinced them plant a bomb that they got from FBI infiltrator. We probably never would have heard about them if the FBI hadn't egg them on. There is an enormous risk of violence from the 3 fold increase in hate groups formed since Obama has been elected President. That is where real risks exist. Not in a group that espouses non violence. Your energies would be more useful there.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

that story is not believed

it seems a covenant excuse fabricated to frighten and distract the people

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Your posts are disrespectful, and offensive, They are not based in fact I guess you are a troll? Yes?

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

what facts are there?

respect for who ?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

no...

and that question never remained

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Does any question remain for you from this above post?:

[-] 1 points by trashyharry (12) from Waterville, NY 7 hours ago I sometimes feel uncomfortable around the peaceful#OWS protest.but I speak for myself when I say that my favorite picture on earth is the one taken of the dictator Mussolini,along with his favorite prostitute and familiar lackeys hanging from a gas station awning.What do I want to happen?I hope that someday the entire 1% including children,females and their lackeys will end in the same condition all around the world.Unfortunately,I'm old now and I don't think I will be alive when it happens.I live now in a world that reflects the values of the 1%-boarded up stores.fly-by night tattoo parlours,casinos,dope holes,strip malls,slums and fast food joints,adult book stores and strip clubs.We have all this ugliness because it is t he kind of economy that is advantageous to the 1% and nobody else.I really would give anything to machine gun a whole family of you evil bloodclots-the number of people who belong to #OWS who currently agree is small,but the cruel tyranny of the rich bloodsucking elite has yet to reach its zenithDU&BUTRASH

↥like ↧dislike reply permalink [-] 1 points by moneyandgreedprevails (0) 8 hours ago

[-] 1 points by Human (23) 2 years ago

What's the matter? People who have come to personal realizations about how degraded and corrupt our country has become? Harry is pissed. So am I.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

The US is one of the least corrupt nations on the planet (Tied for 14 th with Germany) :

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/st_CORRUPT1026_20101026.html

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23961) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That may have been so before the shit hit the fan ( economic meltdown ) but I do believe that perspective is changing very fast now in world view.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

Today the US has virtual the same score that it had in 2007 prior to the meltdown:

http://archive.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2007

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 2 years ago

In the 2011 report the US position remained unchanged:

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

[-] 0 points by j3ttz (2) 2 years ago

There's nothing wrong with liking your job monetarist, but it's silly to make light of what thousands and thousands of people are protesting against WORLDWIDE. This movement cannot be shrinked down to a convenient package of explanations. This movement is bigger than that, it stands for MANY different ideas and views. Occupy isn't just made up of young people, it includes people from all walks of life. Of course, if you're only watching mainstream media, then you would only see their depiction of it, as a troublesome group of annoying whiney kids, which it isn't. We're dealing with a shift in consciousness this is bigger than you and me.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

You'll never get him to see it that way. He came to this site with the express purpose of using his massive intellect to find fault with the entire OWS concept.

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[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Here is an answer for you- it doesnt matter what your political views are, you arent being represented. Both corporate main stream parties are serving the corporations.

We are hoping to try to steer mainstream issues back into the conversation. Its not an easy task.

Dems are frustrated, as are Republicans. As are indies. As are those that dont bother voting because they see what a scam it is.

[-] 2 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

so what is the message from OWS? what do you want changed & how do you want to change it? specifically.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

There are multiple ways to get there, and there are quite the amount of differing opinions within.

Similar to the Tea Party. Main goal: spending cuts. What to cut? That was were there was a wide difference on what to do. Many different plans. But it elevated the conversation. It was the first time in a long long time that the debt ceiling was even part of MSM. It didnt work, but it was a start.

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Sorry, but I think spending cuts are among a myriad of goals amongst OWSers. You have many others that talk more about income redistribution, raising taxes, and some just flat out calling for the seizure of wealth from those better off.

The seizure of anyone's possessions/wealth should sound horrifying to anybody, but strangely enough, gets some support in these forums.

I think the seemingly thousands of "goals" of OWS both helps it, and holds it back. Helping it by welcoming every cause under the sun to join them, and then hurting them by having so many goals, that their message gets muddled, and the minority of OWSers that intentionally cause mayhem only further push the movement from getting the full support of the "99%" in which they claim to represent.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I agree in the help/hurt thing.

As far as the income redistribution, from what I have heard with my own ears, is its more about the multinationals that get to pay zero.

I have to say, I'm not terribly thrilled that oil companies get to make billions (which is fine by itself), but then also get to A) pay zero taxes and B) actually get subsidies from us. Im not a huge redistribution guy, I work hard. But that scenario would never have flown with the founding fathers.

I also think that most on the left and right get too caught up in the success/failure of the Bush tax cuts. Its a 2.5% difference, and no one pays it anyways. Pretty sure its just more media nonsense to keep the people off the real underlying problem- our tax code is 76,000 pages...

[-] 0 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Cuts hurt the 99%! They have already sacrificed and suffered during the last 10 yrs. Working Americans have suffered as a result of the criminals who crashed the world economy. The only people who haven't helped/sacrificed during this great recession have been the wealthiest. Why shouldn't they contribute to resolving these problems. If they were good citizens they would do the right thing! Its greedy and unamerican for the wealthy to withhold the wealth they could not have accumulated without the 99%! Its greedy and unamerican to expect to resolve these financial problems on the backs of workers, elderly, poor. Come on. Give us a break with this selfishness.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

It's not selfish, its reality. You can't tax your way out of this. The amount of entitlements coming down the pipes, along with our uneducated society- in comparison to the global world- means we are heading for disaster.

No politician is going to do whats necessary to get the ship back on track, because they already have the good life, and they dont want to deal with backlash from the top that gets all the beneifts, and those that get teh gov money.

Massive cuts are coming whether you want them or not. We dont have any leadership in DC that represents the people, and apparently no one is interested in getting anything going either.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You can't cut your way out of this either. We've already cut too much across fed/state gov. It has cost us millions of jobs. The one way out is to grow the economy. Create jobs (1st stop firing, then rehire any gov employees recently fired!) encourage bringing jobs back from oversees. tax incentives for hiring americans. Penalties for outsourceing. Cut corporate welfare, cut the military budget. cut taxes for workers/small business. raise taxes on investment income. Simple.

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

How do you theorize that (re)hiring government employees solve anything?

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You may have noticed we have an unemployment problem as such it is logical that we retain as many jobs as possible. We must encourage the private industry to hire as well. best way to do that is to refrain from firing anyone. increase demand and the job creators will hire, economy will grow deficit and debt will disappear like magic. growth is the only answer. more jobs create growth. Got it?

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

The government itself though, doesn't create prosperity.

I see the government as one of two things... A: The largest corporation there is... One with overspending, waste, bailouts, pumping money into business ventures that fail, (the list goes on). A typical corporation would collapse if it ran as our government does. Yet, since it receives revenue from other companies, and taxpayers (which you could imagine as subsidiaries of this corporation), it has been able to survive.

The other thing I picture it as, is a giant leach. It sucks money away from everyone, and everything, and spends it as it sees fit. You may not like where your tax dollars go, but you have (little, to) no voice on how it's spent.

I believe that if the government hiring people was a way to fix our problems, we would be able to notice this, since we already have millions dependent on the government for $$ in the form of food stamps, unemployment, and more. Should we double the amount of money that goes into these programs then?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Double.? thats extreme. !st stop firing people. we need people working so they are consuming and paying taxes. we need to penalize corp that hire outside America, we need to incentivise hiring Americans. we need to force the financial corps that crashed the world economy to forgive the student debt and credit card debt of working Americans. This will get money back into the hands of americas middle class consumers. This will create growth, and that will create the market forces for companies to hire. the growth will feed on itself, revenue will rise, deficit will go down, debt will go down. Growth is the only answer. We can only create growth if we can reinvigorate demand from a newly empowered middle class. Support ows. vote out republicans forgive the debt.

[-] -1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

My post was specifically geared towards your comment about re-hiring government employees. Obviously we need more employment. Government employment does not fix anything (and as I mentioned, if that was the solution, the government should just hand more money out to people). The government doesn't pay corporate taxes to itself to pay for itself.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I laid out the plan. It's the only way. Lets push it. support ows.

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Your idea of increasing the number of government employees to fix the economy, has about as much logic, and chance of succeeding as increasing the number of recipients of government assistance (food stamps, unemployment, etc) to fix the economy.

...As for loan forgiveness, I've worked my ass off over the years to finally get rid of the thousands of credit card debt that I created, for myself. ...If there's any chance that the government is going to forgive consumer debt, I'm going to seriously consider going on a $10,000+ shopping spree (more if I hadn't closed the majority of my cards).

...Because hey, why should I be responsible with money, if the government is going to forgive me? I mean, nobody forced me to sign up for the credit cards. They didn't force me to buy that newfangled HDTV, the hundreds in video games, and consoles, or help pay for that trip to Hawaii, or the tens of thousands that I've spent on other crap.

...But why should I be responsible for following the Terms and Conditions when I signed up for the credit cards? I mean, its not like anybody actually reads those. Why should they be responsible?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

The 2009 law was not supported by cr card co. So that is the measure that it is good for consumers. (could have been much better) the 2005 bankruptcy law was not supported by consumer groups That is the measure it is bad for consumers. Some people do get cards without totally understanding, that is unfortune. I don't advocate rewarding their mistake. Of course cr card corps change the terms mid way. That sgould be illegal. Excessive fees/penalties s/b illegal. I think if we made credit card company forgive a portion of "old" debt for working class Americans, where the original loan has been paid back 10x over. Then make high interest loans illegal, we will get money back into consumers hands, recreate demand, grow the economy to pat down the debt. Support OWS. Vote out cr card lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Cr card corps have gotten laws changed to favor their unfair business practices and hurt us. They have gotten republicans to change bankrupcy laws to make it more difficult and expensive for regular people to use (not wealthy corps) meanwhile they have made 5x- 50x profit on the original loan using loan shark level interest rates. If it ain't illegal it should be. And that is why they should be held responsible. Support OWS Vote out cr card corp lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Like how Congress passed laws on credit card reform in 2009?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

...I also believe (but cannot find an online source at the moment), that the rules for bankruptcy have changed to where it only affects you for 2-3 years, instead of 10. ...But of course, you haven't provided any links to back up your claims, so that shouldn't matter.

However, you still keep blatantly ignoring the fact that nobody is forced to get a credit card, and that all whom do get one agree to the terms and conditions associated with that card.

Your position seems to be that many American consumers are too stupid, illiterate, and irresponsible, so we need to punish those big bad banks for giving consumers access to money.

Would you rather make a law only allowing those in the top 20% to get loans?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I support responsibility, and accountability, I support bringing criminals to justice. The cr card companies have exploited and preyed on the American people and they should be forced to take responsibility for that by forgiving unfair debt. Support OWS. Vote out credit card companies supporting republicans

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

So American's should not be held responsible for their choices? Again, they signed up for their credit cards under their own free will. The credit card companies haven't done anything illegal by charging the rates they do. Nobody forced consumers to apply for them. If the consumer fails because of their choices, they need some sort of consequence so they learn.

If they truly cannot pay them back, then there is a means of getting rid of the debt: bankruptcy. There is no reason anybody should simply be forgiven for bad mistakes.

I learned that I didn't like paying what I was in credit cards, paid them off, and got rid of (most of) them. I took responsibility for my own decisions, and mistakes. There are millions more of Americans that are being responsible, and paying the debts that they accrued. There is no reason to punish those that have been responsible for their actions, by forgiving the irresponsible.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Stand with working Americans not with loan shark credit card companies. they victimize your fellow Americans. Support OWS. vote out big finance lovin politicians

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

So you really have no intelligent response when I try to bring reasoning, and logic into the equation?

You just keep reiterating the same thing. I am a hard working American, I don't support the credit card companies. I support personal responsibility (on all sides), and if that goes against OWS, then I will never support it.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

You may think 20% interest is ok. but it aint! even 15% is too high. Banks make 2 3 4 times the amount loaned out with these exorbitant loan shark level rates. I can't defend these irresponsible big banks. I leave that to you. Maybe the taxpayer should lend to themselves through the fed window @ less than 1% like we do for the big banks? Maybe then the big banks will discontinue this predatory treatment of the American people. How do you feel about that.? support ows. Vote out big bank lovin republicans!

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

20% interest isn't okay. I would never get a credit card now at that rate. But if I wanted a credit card, it was the best I could get at the time. Hell, the 10% average that I currently pay is too much in my opinion, but I ensure I pay off the balance to make sure I don't pay the interest.

You don't like the rate they charge you? Don't get a loan. Nobody forces people to get student loans, or credit cards. If you sign up for one, and agree in writing to follow the Terms and Conditions, then nobody is to blame but yourself.

If you were to borrow $100 from friends or family, under the condition that you would pay them $110-$125, would you take the money, and then say you won't pay it back, because it's too much?

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Stopping firing, and rehiring teachers, 1st responders will not solve the economic problems alone. but will help millions of working American families. We penalize outsources, incentivise on shoring, and strengthen the middle class..........

Banks have enslaved the middle class with loan shark level interest rates. They crashed the economy, threatened the country with lending freeze took huge socialist bailouts, have since borrowed almost 15 trillion dollars at less than 1% to then lend it out slowly at 29%. they should be made to pay for what they have done and if we get this money back into the middle class consumerism will begin again and growth will explode. Stop protecting these criminals. Support your fellow Americans, forgive the debt. support ows vote out wall st lovin republicans

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

People have enslaved themselves to banks. It's people not being responsible that leads to being an increased credit risk, and causes banks to raise the rates they charge people.

I've had about 5 different credit cards (not counting store cards) at some point. I started out at 20% interest on two. I got another one that offered 15%. Eventually, I got rid of the 20% cards when they couldn't offer me the same, or better than my lower cards. The 15% one eventually lowered rates down a couple of percentage points, then, somehow saw me as an increased credit risk. That credit card was then on the cutting board. The only two credit cards I have now, offer have <10%. I earned that by being responsible, and always paying my bills on time.

Forgiving irresponsibility doesn't fix irresponsibility, it encourages it. It does punish those (the majority), who have been responsible getting loans.

Here's an idea: If you don't like the rates that banks are charging, get a group of like minded-people, or sympathizers that have a little bit of money, pool it together, and loan it out at a more fair rate to those with poor credit. I know of an insurance company that started out similarly, and has since expanded its membership exponentially, and expanded to banking, and investments, and more. It's now worth either tens, or billions of dollars, all because of taking a risk decades ago.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Exactly. You cant cut your way out, you cant tax your way out- technically a combo of the two would work, but there isnt a party that is willing to do it right now, and the people are proving once again that they have no intention of stepping up and creating another one. OWS is a good thing, along with other offshoot political groups, but its a very very small segment of the population.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I think a combo is required but still inadequate. Only growth can get us out of this financial hole. Continued pressure on politicians (especially candidates) to support the jobs action I mentioned above. I also think we can create massive business demand (and therefore real growth) by forgiving the crippling debt (student, & cr card) the middle class is enslaved by.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I cant speak for everyone. And the problems are pretty deep. First off, we need to get our elected officials to do what we elect them for.

Its a runaway war train, and the spending is out of control, has been for quite some time.

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

This is where I actually agree with OWS, except I place the blame primarily on the politicians. If you think they are corrupt, and in the pockets of corporations, vote the bums out. It's easiest, (possibly most legitimate) thing that voters can do.

Unfortunately, only about a third of registered voters vote, others don't even bother to register. In the end, incumbents are almost guaranteed to return to Washington DC each election year, despite their abysmal approval ratings.

Perhaps in the end, the blame goes back to the American citizens (due to either not voting, not holding the incumbent accountable, or just blindly voting along party lines), for ultimately allowing these politicians to be re-elected despite their low ratings.

...In which case, the government we have, is the government we deserve (and I mean that in the most depressing way possible).

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Until the american people decide to get involved and starting their own things again, we can expect more of the same...

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

...So what you are saying then, is "We are all screwed?" ; )

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Its an uphill battle to say the least :>)

The left is screwing teh left, the right is screwing the right, and the vast majority of us in the middle are left with nothing but corportist mongrels.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

its not that simple. the ones that are on the ballot are just the same as the ones in office. there has to be a way to force them to act in the best interest of the population and not just the way that gets more money in their pocket. thats why there has to be end to lobbying and huge corporate donations. so voting them out will only put someone different to succumb to the bribery, it wont change anything until the pay off is removed. hence the OWS.

[-] 0 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Let the congressman/woman know how you feel. Write them, attend town hall meetings (remember the town hall meetings around the time Obamacare was passed?) Let them know, that if they do what they do, you won't vote for them. It sounds little, but if a massive amount of their constituents felt the same way (say.... 99%?), they would realize how dire their re-election hopes might be.

...Then, you use all those "grassroots" efforts that seem to be such a buzzword today, and you find someone that can beat them in the primary, so they don't even show up on the ballot in November. If OWS truly is about the 99%, then there shouldn't be an issue trying to solve things through the process we currently have in place.

...Of course, if the "outsider" that you managed to elect strays from the views of the people whom elected him/her, then you repeat the process. I believe the key would be to get those that have been in Washington DC forever, seem to think that they are entitled, and believe the seat is theirs, and not their constituents. If we could more routinely swap them out with people that haven't become accustomed to the culture of DC, (I believe) fewer of them would become "corrupted"

[-] 0 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

i agree. and by having the ows .. this brings this to light for many that would just continue operating in the dark,, making the politicians fear that that if they do not work for the people, they may lose . but there has to be this giant gathering, questioning, protest . theres no other way to get the message out. the media work for and many are the 1% and are not going to report on these issues without being forced to by the magnitude of the involvement of thousands. you see that there were thousands protesting yesterday.. yet hardly anything on the news. there will have to be millions joining in to make the population sit up and learn and demand change. and get that change through voting.

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Has there been any effort on OWS' part to put anybody on the ballot that shares the same ideals as OWS (alá the Tea Party in 2010?).

The Tea Party seemed to have moderate success in at least shaking up the Republican establishment (causing at least one incumbent to loose their primary contest, and several more 'establishment' candidates not being on the ballot in the general election.) It would seem that if Occupy wanted change, they would try to find/gather around particular candidate to try to get them on the ballot, and oust some in DC.

I don't know if OWS is actually trying any of this though. It seems all doom-and-gloom, and some people saying they'll vote for Obama (despite alot of the anti-Obama posts here) because he's the "lesser of two evils." ...or others saying they won't vote at all. ...And I don't think either changes anything, really.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

im thinking there are a lot more ows than what post on this forum. and how can you get anyone in politics to rally around when none of them will even acknowledge the existance of ows? this will take time before it works it wont be quick, its a movement against money, the most powerful force in the world.

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

I don't know, but the Tea Party seemed to do it. I believe only Fox would cover the Tea Party, and in less than 2 years, they impacted the 2010 mid-term election. I wouldn't really blame it on money either, when the left have their own people funding millions of dollars into groups (which I'm sure OWS receives at a good amount.)

...As for getting the word out on OWS, I'm sure most people are already aware of OWS. I don't know how much the left-leaning news talks about it, but I think the problem might lie more with OWS's message, and how broad it's aims are (and of course, the elements of OWS that vandalize, break laws, and cause other mayhem don't help)

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

We're working on a third party for 2014. Its too soon to run candidates this year, although there are a few people who claim ties with Occupy who are running for Congress...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/10-occupy-candidates-congress

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

Well, glad to see there are some candidates running with the OWS message. I only noticed about two that are actually running against "establishment" Democrats (although, I gave up checking near the end of the list).

I don't know if I'm too impressed with A. Grayson and E. Warren on the list. Grayson seemed like a moron his last trip to DC, and the statements that I've heard Warren say sound horrifying.

But, I'm interested to see how their election bids go, and/or how this turns out as we approach 2014.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

haha... lol. These jokers have no idea why they are doing it or what they intend to achieve from it or how it fits into their overall strategy (if any strategy at all exists). From them it's just like a party. My May Day will be spent in office working on stuff that I deepy love and trying to do my job well and I would be at office at least till 10 pm

[-] 3 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Your posts appear to be consistently insulting and hateful. Why? Do you think that our country has no problems, and no change is needed.? Do you have no compassion for your fellow Americans who might be suffering. It is easy to tear down. Takes courage and strength to change and build. What is your plan? Is there nothing we might agree on.?

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

I am sorry for the insults but I cannot find a way to sugar coat the truth. And the truth is I see young adult beahving like kids and throwing tantrums over their demands.

Any country has problems and change is always needed. I am just not sure how making America communist or taking away all money from anyone who has more than $250k in bank balance (has been suggested elsewhere), or killing the rich (again that has been suggested) or dividing America into 9 countries (another genius idea from some occutard) or taking away all money from eeach and every corporation is a constructive idea. Neither do I concur with the notion prevailing here that these occupiers did not succeed in life because of the rich.

I also see people here who are incoherent and do not understand a thing about economics but go on making stupid statements. Even the Tea Party is 10 times more coherent than you guys are.

As for compassion for fellow Americans or lack thereof, please do not try to present a bunch of squatters as a representative sample of all Americans. Your's is a small and rather fast dwindling group (as the May Day turnout should tell you). I don't mind even giving away $10k a year to charity but I shall not give it away to a bunch of over entitled kids with a misplaced sense of self worth and self righteousness. More important disliking OWS is not the same as disliking Americans.

You wanna know how to get a good paying job, study hard and smart before it's too late. I did. I am not a 1% yet but I guess I would be in the top 5% now and no my dad ain't rich.

Before trying to change things, it might do you well if you understand the issues at hand properly. I would have happily supported any group that was vying for less income inequality but I cannot support a bunch of barely literate blabbering idiots who don't know what they are talking about.

As for my plan, I have none. Despite my rather extensive education, I do not think I understand all the issues well enough to profer a plan. I guess I am not as smart or brave or stupid as you average occupier. But yes, if someone comes up with a plan then I can evaluate it (on certain aspects) and figure if it might work or not. And none of yours would.

Can we agree on something. Yes 1. Reduce income inequality. It should be an ongoing process instead of a sudden jump. 2. Reduce lobbying and the influence of certain groups(Big Oil, Big Pharma, Banks, Labor unions, Teachers' Union etc) on politics

[-] 1 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

"Can we agree on something. Yes 1. Reduce income inequality. It should be an ongoing process instead of a sudden jump. 2. Reduce lobbying and the influence of certain groups(Big Oil, Big Pharma, Banks, Labor unions, Teachers' Union etc) on politics"

So instead of ragging on your fellow Americans and attacking them for doing what they can, how about doing something about this? It doesn't have to be OWS. It can be participating in the 99% Declaration, or Americans Elect, or writing a letter to the newspaper, or starting your own protest.

I think a lot of your derision towards OWS protestors is slanted by biased news reports and a lack of personal observation. Have you actually been to an Occupy event? I have, and I didn't see any poop on the streets, or anybody being raped, or anything of that sort. I saw some people who were dressed like they were from Asheville, but I also saw people supporting the camp who were in full suit-and-tie mode.

Just because some of these people didn't spend 8 years of their life holed up in some building, racking up thousands of dollars in debt to obtain some piece of paper doesn't make them stupid. We all have different areas of expertise, and even from those of us who aren't Economics degree holders have opinions that are shaped from our own personal experiences. If everyone needed to have a degree in any field that they had an opinion in, then absolutely nothing would get done as we would all spend our entire lives reading books instead of being productive.

I am pretty well off myself, yet I support the ideas in this movement. Why? Because I care about my neighbors down the street. I care about the people who live in the destitute areas of town. I see a lot of people that are suffering, and I know a lot of people are getting bent over and fucked by big business in my town.

I know Moms who are working 70+ hours a week in low-income jobs, while trying to take care of a child and somehow squeeze in a night class when they can. When people like you come on here and try to tell me that people like those need to "get a job" or that they don't "work hard enough," it makes my blood boil. All that the pro-1% sees are numbers. I see the PEOPLE behind those numbers.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

I have passed by occupiers on my way to work. Even stepped out of the office to watch the may day march.

I am not saying people who are not educated aren't stupid. But the fact remain they have no understanding of the finer aspects of these issues and get carried away by propaganda. They have every right to have an opinion but I cannot agree with them knowing fully well that their opinion is wrong. That would make us both wrong.

Yes you see people behind those numbers. May be I do not. It is always easy to find that one sad example that can make my numbers irrelevant, however correct my numbers may be. Which is why instead of focussing on one person's problem I prefer to look at the macro view.

And I am not pro 1% or even pro 99%. I am pro reason and pro logic.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

"Yes you see people behind those numbers. May be I do not. It is always easy to find that one sad example that can make my numbers irrelevant, however correct my numbers may be. Which is why instead of focussing on one person's problem I prefer to look at the macro view."

I look at the macro view as well. The fact remains that these people do exist, and they deserve help. I don't want to see any human suffer. Even one starving person is one person too many. All that the statistics do is make it easy to distance oneself from the suffering. A bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet de-humanizes the real problems that people are facing on a daily basis.

Logically it makes sense to push for reforms that help many people over reforms that only help a few. The tax breaks and loopholes help a very small percentage of people who do not even need the money past a certain point, while advocating for a jobs program or a living wage, etc. would help many times more people.

If you care about humanity, you will support ALL humans, not just a small subset that you believe are "worth" supporting. The 1% don't need any help. They have the money to afford the healthiest food, best clothing, shelter, and plenty of toys for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile some humans have to fight to stay alive, sleep on the streets, and end up putting themselves in prison ON PURPOSE just for a meal. That's disgusting, and frankly I don't want to be part of a species that is so selfish that it can't look out for its most vulnerable.

I will give you this: some people who participate in Occupy events don't know what they're talking about. But so do many Republicans, Democrats, Economists, police, Christians, etc. Every single organization on this planet is going to have membership that is misinformed, but that doesn't mean that we get free reign to paint entire groups with the same brush.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

I don't want to see anyone suffer either but some of the alleged suffering presented in this forum is either self inflicted or not much of a suffering. Yes, I agree numbers de-humanize the problem sometimes and may be it is not always a bad idea. Government has finite resources (budget), finite time and finite span of attention and even the most well meaning government cannot possibly solve all suffering and therefore one needs to take a call based on numbers.

I am all for doing away with the loopholes provided it's done is a sane manner and not based on OWS rhetoric where you want to tax income over $500k at 90%. That's ridiculous and atrocious. As for living wage or increasing the min wage, as well intentioned your goals are the fact remains that such a move (even if I were to assume it won't lead to more unemployment) will simply increase the cost of goods so as to nullify (even if partially) the wage increase. Those min wage workers will still be the poorest in America, albeit at a higher wage.

I am not supporting the 1%. I just don't support OWS. When is not supporting OWS equal to supporting the 1%. Please let not get into such rhetoric.

And I totally agree with the last part of your post, yes it would be wrong to expect every OWS supporter to be well informed and I must say I have seen greater nut jobs among Republicans and religious people. That being said, the kind of post that get 'liked' on this forum shows that a overwhelming number of people are misinformed.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Well, when people come onto these boards and do nothing but complain about the movement and have negative attitudes, then it is no wonder if people catch on to that pattern and vote the posts down.

I'm not saying that you can't offer constructive criticism. But you haven't offered a better alternative, or any alternative from what I can recall. If you have a better method, tactic, etc. that we can take to fix this society, I'm all ears. Many posters are attacking a group that is trying in the way that it knows how to fix things, but refusing to offer anything better.

I don't care how much of a person's fault it is that they are starving and cannot get food. I don't care if they do or don't "deserve" food based on some arbitrary rules of our society. Starving people is wrong. It is inhumane, and I am not going to sit by and watch these people suffer just because society deems these people as "failures" for whatever reason.

Government absolutely has the power to fix this problem, but people are too set in their ways to ever approve of the steps that government would have to take to ensure universal care for all. Government would have to stop nearly all of its defense spending, close all of its tax loopholes, increase taxes on everyone, end all subsidies, cut ALL pork out of the budget, place a huge tariff on imports, and break up the banks. Basically the government would have to step in and manage our capitalism extremely closely.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

I cannot offer you a better alternative or better plans because I am simply not conversant enough with all the issues and neither am I as brave (or foolish) as the avg occupier. I can offer criticism/suggestions on certain ideas on areas that I have some knowledge in. But I certainly cannot offer you a grand unified solution to all of our social, political, economic problems.

I am not saying people shoulc be left to starve but I don't see any reason in offering them a 7 course meal, 3 times a day.

I would love to see lesser defense spending but I don't think that's happening any time soon. Besides the fact that we are a target of terrorism, it does take a lot of military muscle (besides economic muscle) to remain a super power. Ending all subsidies is also not a good idea, some subsidies are needed. Similarly placing a huge tariff on imports is also detrimental for the economy, so is breaking up the banks.

I don't think govt has a business micro managing capitalism. Other than the fact that it would require a much larger bureaucracy to do it, it is inefficient, undesirable and smacks of central control and communism which in practice has failed miserably.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

"I cannot offer you a better alternative or better plans because I am simply not conversant enough with all the issues and neither am I as brave (or foolish) as the avg occupier."

Again, if we all had to wait until we had enough degrees to know every single nuance of knowledge that we needed, then nothing would get done. Its OK to come up with an idea that's wrong. Try it.

I'm sure plenty of people thought the Wright brothers were fools as well. If I heard that two guys were going to build a flying machine and fly it over some hills nearby, I'd probably bet my buddies $1 that one of them breaks their neck! We don't know until we try.

"I am not saying people shoulc be left to starve but I don't see any reason in offering them a 7 course meal, 3 times a day."

No one is suggesting that. How about a bowl of cereal and a piece of fruit for breakfast, a salad and some nuts for lunch, and a few oz. of meat, a green veggie, and a starch for dinner? 3 healthy square meals, probably clocking in at 2000 calories. Not a feast by any stretch.

"I would love to see lesser defense spending but I don't think that's happening any time soon. Besides the fact that we are a target of terrorism, it does take a lot of military muscle (besides economic muscle) to remain a super power. Ending all subsidies is also not a good idea, some subsidies are needed. Similarly placing a huge tariff on imports is also detrimental for the economy, so is breaking up the banks."

I think we are the target of terrorists because we spend so much money invading other countries and occupying areas where we are not welcome. We meddle in EVERY other country's affairs, and that results in us being unwelcome in many of them. We have decimated economies in many nations where we have passed free trade agreements, invigorated the Mexican drug cartels through our demand for illicit drugs, and have directly influenced shitty working conditions worldwide. Our demand for diamonds causes children in Africa to be enslaved or recruited into armies for the "blood diamond" trade. Let's not even get started with what our demand for oil has done...

The fact is, we are the bad guys. We need to change OUR methods before we can expect people from other nations to stop hating us.

How about instead of having a million foreign bases, that we pull out of every other country and bolster our security at home instead? I'd rather see our troops in the US, protecting us domestically rather than posing with limbs of enemy combatants or pissing on corpses.

I doubt that more than 20% of the subsidies that we give away are necessary. Too many of them are given to the Wal*Marts and McDonalds of the nation instead of mom-and-pop start-ups. And why are we subsidizing oil companies? Don't they have enough money?

Tariffs would put Americans back to work once companies crunch the numbers and see that it is now cheaper to hire Americans than to offshore production. Right now too many good jobs are being taken by Chinese labor.

Banks are unnecessary now that we have credit unions. What do banks do that credit unions can't?

"I don't think govt has a business micro managing capitalism. Other than the fact that it would require a much larger bureaucracy to do it, it is inefficient, undesirable and smacks of central control and communism which in practice has failed miserably."

It doesn't matter what "-ism" you want to label the ideas, the fact remains that whatever "-ism" we think we're using now isn't working. I want what I call "managed capitalism" i.e. free-market Capitalism where the government steps in where adjustments need to be made. Unchecked Capitalism isn't working, but I think with a little more guidance a Capitalist system can flourish AND ensure a better life for all.

After all, isn't the point of government to help its people? If not, then why do we have a government in the first place?

Its been a good discussion so far.

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

While I am not saying that you need a PhD in economics to opine about the economy, but spewing conspiracy theories and alleging Jewish banker conspiracy is also not quite well thought out. It's important people talk sense, whether or not they have degrees. People in this forum observe micro economic events and draw macro economic conclusions from that, conclusion which when seen from the eye of a knowledgeable person turn out to be very wrong.

Oh yes we meddle in every country. Someone rightly said "Politics is war by other means". Our per capita energy requirements are many times higher than Indians or Chinese and to get hold of those kind of energy resources the country flexes in economic and military muscle, even invade countries if need be.

And yes we need to change our methods but it would come at a great economic cost for sure. And no administration would want to anger people at home to embark on a international mission of altruism and benevolence.

As for increasing tariffs, do you think asian countries would just sit back and take it lying down. Besides, tariffs are used as a means to project domestic sectors which are not yet ready to face global competition because they are matured enough. Our case is different. Here the companies are matured and the tech is top notch, we lose out solely on the basis of labor costs and those would only increase. Therefore you will need to forever (indefinitely) protect those industries with tariff or non tariff barriers.

Banks perform many more functions than mere credit unions. Various countries have similar concepts like co-operative banks and most of these organizations are way too small and on the fringe.

I am not saying that govt does not need to manage capitalism, it's just that we don't agree on the extent of management necessary.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

"but spewing conspiracy theories and alleging Jewish banker conspiracy is also not quite well thought out"

And when have I ever done that? My arguments are based on logic and reason, not fairy tales.

"As for increasing tariffs, do you think asian countries would just sit back and take it lying down. Besides, tariffs are used as a means to project domestic sectors which are not yet ready to face global competition because they are matured enough."

Exactly! We need to protect out industries in the US first, instead of sending our jobs to China. I don't have anything against China, but I hate that I have to jump through hoops to buy anything that was made here, by Americans.

China's labor cost causes inhumanity and suffering. We should use our power to make an example to the Chinese, that we will not tolerate their abysmal working conditions. A tariff would send a strong message that we value laborers OVER profits. Unfortunately, too many people in the 1% think that money is the only thing that matters in this life...

I have absolutely no need for a bank. My credit union will handle my car loan, mortgage, and every type of account that I need. I don't need a bank to help me invest either, now that online services like E*Trade can do just as well of a job for me.

"I am not saying that govt does not need to manage capitalism, it's just that we don't agree on the extent of management necessary."

We can agree to disagree. I still want to hear your plan. No excuses. I made my proposal. Time to make yours.

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago
  1. You havent but people here have.

  2. Your reasons for protection and the means to do them are incongruent. Countries have protect immature industries which lacked technical sophistication to compete globally. That's not the case here. Therefore I am not very optimistic about the efficacy of tariff barries in this case

  3. Chinese working conditions are surely a bit more strenous than here but then our work hours are also higher than those in Europe. It's all relative. And how is banishing chinese manufactured products a solution to the alleged inhumanity or suffering of chinese workers?Is letting those workers starve without a job somehow more humane?

  4. You may not have need for a bank but the economy and industries do. Credit unions existed even before banks came into being (read "the ascent of money'). In fact, you could say that banks evolved from credit unions.

  5. I am not making excuses when I say I dont have a proposal. I am being honest.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago
  1. Gotcha. Just remember that in a leaderless organization, everyone is speaking for themselves.

  2. We don't have the lack of humanity necessary to compete globally, so yes, we still need protections. I'm not sure if tariffs are the end-all answer either. We could also provide tax breaks for businesses to keep production here, or increase income tax on manufacturers that hire X% of their employees in China. We have economic options to save jobs from moving to China, but the current crop of politicians are too cowardly to pick a fight with big red.

  3. Yes, and African nations have the worst conditions of all. We can do something about China, however. We can use our economic muscle to force them to become more humane. The Chinese will not starve even if we cut off all imports from them. China has a middle class that rivals our country's population, and its government is smart enough to make concessions instead of risking revolution from a country of over 1 billion people. Trust me, we can make China improve.

  4. No, the economy would be better off with a network of smaller, independent financial institutions rather than these "too big to fail" banks that we currently have. The risks would be spread out over many member-owned institutions instead of in a few centrally-controlled behemoths. Anytime that a few people get to control the finances of organizations this big, the mistakes are amplified that many times over. We're playing with fire by allowing these banks to control so much of our economy.

  5. Fair enough.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago
  1. That's the prob with a leaderless organization.

  2. The fact is we taught the world how to compete ruthlessly and now the world has beaten us at our own game. May be tax break are an answer for certain sectors. for others, the cost disparity is so high that taxes alone won't work.

  3. Actually China will starve because the US is one of their largest importers. But then, with China holding $2 trillion worth of US debt, no American govt can do anything. China and US are now joined at the hip.

  4. On the contrary risks would increase much more. It's a simple matter of statistics. For a credit union, a non performing $1 million loan can be disastrous but for a bank it's nothing, they can simply write it off. And they can do that because of their size. A large bank can witstand shocks much better. Besides the few bigger banks, TARP money went to a host of other smaller banks too which also were in crisis.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

More offensive insults for the brave Americans protesting the inequality you agree exists. Your not serious. You want to destroy. You clearly don't understand what is necessary for change nor what ows is seeking. I think in fact you don't want to understand. the suggestions you site from previous exchanges are not indicative of what we are trying to do. The recent march was 30 thousand strong in nyc. There are protest in dozens of cities across this country. Millions of people all over the planet. Growing still. Tea party is gone. They are part of republican party as they have always been. Are you what they call a troll?

[-] 1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Yes I am what, the so kindly, call a troll. Apparently its a term used to decribe anyone who disagrees with their trash talk. And brave American? Pooping and pissing and taking drugs in park and random slogaanering is nothing brave. And when the police tries to stop them, they call it police brutality.

I am not sure what you guys are trying to do and if you ask 10 people to each point out 10 things you are trying to achieve, you will see huge disparities in their answers.

Yes I did step out of office for sometime to watch the May Day march, pretty decent turnout. But I am not sure how it is anywhere even remotely close to 'millions of people all over the planet'.

My objections with OWS are

  1. They dont understand the issues. Give me one well read, well educated representative (the kind I can relate to) to discuss your objectives and philosophy.

  2. You are engaging in class warfare. Things like "Lets eat the rich" or "Lets kill the rich" or "lets take away all their money". That's highly inflammatory and while it may not lead to any wide spread violence but there may be that one of nut job who does try any of these.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

Class warfare has existed for all of human history. everyone should be aware of that. Wealth has been unfairly redistributed from the middle class to the 1% at an unsustainable rate for 30 years. Without a strong middle class America is lost. We were great in the 1950's (economically) because we had the biggest strongest middle class. We must restore that because the wealthy do not care about the country. 30 years ago we were told cut taxes, & regulations for the wealthy. give them loop holes, & subsidies and they will be the job creators. HA. we've done that . They sent jobs overseas, moved money and/or hq's overseas to avoid taxes. It's unamerican, traitorous even. Your nasty posts, insulting comments don't address any real issues. you are simpoly trying to attack this great american movement. You are speaking for these criminals who have taken our money and spit in our faces. If you ain'y part the solution your part of the problem.

[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Then we can agree to disagree. I am not for a second denying that lesser inequality is needed, neither am I denying that income inequality has increased. I just don't agree with much of OWS.

Then you might ask why I come here. Well it's fun to read some of these ideas that are floated here. The naievete amazes me.

[-] 2 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

I don't ask why you are here. It is clear you are here to speak for the criminals who have taken our money and moved our jobs overseas. You are here to insult good brave Americans fighting to take the country back from multi national corps and there political lackeys. You are here to destroy, not to build. you are not unexpected. We must be strong if we are to succeed for the hard working Americans who deserve freedom from the tyranny of the 1%. You are simply an impediment, a speed bump on the information highway. And you are ineffective.

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Bravo. Lets give a round of applause for you mighty speech. You really should be into politics man.

PS: I am not sure how you roped in the word 'information highway' here. Hell, I don't expect coherence from an OWS hippie.

[-] 1 points by VQkag (930) 2 years ago

"hippie". Thats derogatory. Do not be afraid of change. We are fighting for everyone to have a better life. This country is greatest when it remembers that the middle class is the strength. The 1% will be better off if we improve the middle class. The poorest among us will have the best opportunity to become part of the middle class if we strengthen the middle class. support ows, vote out 1% lovin republicans

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[-] -1 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

good for you monetarist ! I cant wait to see these geniuses explain their plan. I've been trying to get a strait answer from the beginning to no avail lol!

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[-] 0 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Keep trying. I tried and failed. Now I just hang around point out the flaws in their arguments, which they have very kindly termed as 'trolling'.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Its very much a hodge podge of people, I dont think anyone can deny that. I do think the main thing to be happy about is that they are being active. If the entire country was this active, then we could have real debates, because the masses would demand it.

For instance, how Mittens, Newt, Perry and Cain werent booed off the stage is beyond me. They are all fake conservatives. But the MSM doesnt cater to the real people, because they simply dont demand it.

[-] -1 points by monetarist (40) 2 years ago

Yes they are being active but I am not so sure if they are using their energies to the right end. I am not saying they should not protest, but they should at least narrow down their list of demands and before that understand the underlying issues and their social, economic and political causes. I am much of a social or political expert but as far as econ is concerned they are dead wrong on so many issues, some of their understanding of econ has been picked up straight from conspiracy sites. Unless they get their facts right, people like me will never take them seriously. I thought Sarah Palin and Dubya were jokers but along came OWS and I had to revisit that notion.

As for what you call main stream media, I think papers like NYTimes are doing a good job of bringing various issues to light. I may not agree with some of their recent attacks on Apple but I sure applaud their reporting.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I agree there is certain things that could be done better. And some of the stuff that I heard at a few rallies in Tampa was pretty bad, pretty uninformed stuff.

But I do believe that the fact they are active is better than nothing at all, so I will take what I can get when it comes to getting a voice to the people again.

[-] -1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

There is no plan, man, it's an organic movement!

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Plans also arise from organic movements...

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[-] -2 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

movement to accomplish what? disruption for disruptions sake? Children throwing a temper tantrum. Now go to your room lol!

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Agreed, thus far. But disruption has its uses, and children most clearly see things as they could be...

But you are here, obviously unhappy -- what do you propose to do?

[-] 0 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

I'm totally happy - this is entertainment for me. I'm just stunned at the lack of thinking people do & base their whole life on emotions. People no longer think- they feel and hence the temper tantrum. It unbelievable to me. Like a car wreck - you just cant help but loo lol!

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Too bad this is mere entertainment for you, but at least we do provide some service to our fellows. Neil Postman was right...

If people no longer think, then why are you here? What role in this great unconscious drama do you have to play? I would like to help shape it myself.

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[-] -1 points by MikeInOhio (13) 2 years ago

It really is pathetic, isn't it?

I'm jealous of your negative rating. I'm trying!

[-] -1 points by trashyharry (3151) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

I sometimes feel uncomfortable around the peaceful#OWS protest.but I speak for myself when I say that my favorite picture on earth is the one taken of the dictator Mussolini,along with his favorite prostitute and familiar lackeys hanging from a gas station awning.What do I want to happen?I hope that someday the entire 1% including children,females and their lackeys will end in the same condition all around the world.Unfortunately,I'm old now and I don't think I will be alive when it happens.I live now in a world that reflects the values of the 1%-boarded up stores.fly-by night tattoo parlours,casinos,dope holes,strip malls,slums and fast food joints,adult book stores and strip clubs.We have all this ugliness because it is t he kind of economy that is advantageous to the 1% and nobody else.I really would give anything to machine gun a whole family of you evil bloodclots-the number of people who belong to #OWS who currently agree is small,but the cruel tyranny of the rich bloodsucking elite has yet to reach its zenithDU&BUTRASH

[-] -1 points by moneyandgreedprevails (-1) 2 years ago

I love how censored this site is!! You speak your mind and get banned. all occupy bs aside you dipshits need to understand if you get your way and wallstreet crumbles and banks close the u.s. will become a hell you could have never imagined in your sheltered lives. Imagine this....ATM's stop spitting out cash and "real" panic steps in to millions of americans. Do you think they will act like you genious's and smoke a blunt??? NO true anarchy and chaos will slam the streets making the united states comparable to Iraq and Afganistan. Not looking to argue just explaining simple facts. Enjoy life and be thankful you live in the most free country on earth and just go to school as well as WORK and stop complaining about a CEO or 2 making a bonus off your taxes. ENJOY YOUR FREEDOM! I know this post will offend most here contrary to the fact i simply want you to realize what your asking for. i do work on wallstreet and worked my ass off getting here jumping hurdles i never thought possible. Made me into the man i am today driving one of my 18 cars i earned working my ass off. something you complaining hippies know nothing about. in closing believe me if this revolution turned to war you would see me fighting cops as well as hippie stoners. im on a different side a side called i worked my ass off so i could enjoy the finer things in life. good luck with your temper tantrums on occupy whereever they will go nowhere because simply put.....everyone is greedy including all of you!

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

anyone owning 18 cars is a dipsht, and an avowed asshat.

[-] -1 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

So how did yesterday go? Not even a blip on the radar lol!

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[-] -1 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

I guess everyone can go look for work.

[-] -1 points by luparb (290) 2 years ago

Here is my predictions of the future, if things continue as they are.

-The cost of living continues to rise.

-Wages continue to stagnate.

-More jobs are removed from the economy through automation and outsourcing, increasing unemployment.

-Peak Oil results in millions more jobs lost

-Global temperatures rise

-profit driven deforestation continues

-Ocean ecosystems go extinct due to pollution and environmental destruction.

-Social spending is cut while military budgets remain untouched

-The economy fails to recover resulting in more corporate bailouts.

If you manage to comprehend the relationship between the capitalist economy, social conditions and the environment, you might understand why we occupy.

What do I want to happen?

I want people to realize, learn, study and become aware of the world around them.

Examples:

Do you know what a military industrial complex is? Do you know what a fractional reserve banking system is? Do you know what compound interest and sovereign debt are?

Do you know what C02 is and what photosynthesis is? Do you know whats happening to the worlds forests right now, and why?

Do you understand what capitalism is? Do you understand what capital accumulation, and why capitalist economies need to constantly expand?

OR I GUESS WE CAN JUST FUCK AROUND, INSULT EACHOTHER AND PLAY XBOX YEEEAEAAAH!

GET MORE JOBS THAT WILL FIX EVERFING!!

I LIEK MONEY

[-] 1 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

so basically - you are throwing a hissy fit because you are unhappy. You have no answers to any problems

[-] -1 points by luparb (290) 2 years ago

like i said, the answer is simple. stop doing what you are doing.

'work' is what creates the problem. It's burning carbon, it's creating pollution, it's causing distraction.

I've stated solutions a number of times to you, but you aren't listening.

[-] -1 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Occupy the Vote...

[-] -1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

...So just as you guys "occupy" banks, and streets to disrupt businesses, are you suggesting you "occupy" voting booths, and disrupt the voting process?

[-] 0 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

No, quite the opposite in fact... We intend to exercise our democratic right to vote. Peacefully. Constitutionally. Perhaps you'll consider our petition for redress of grievances.

http://www.themultitude.org

[-] 1 points by AntiOWSer (18) 2 years ago

I figured that, but the vagueness of your post seemed to imply OWS should use the same tactics it's been using.

I do think OWS becoming involved in the political process would be a good step for it. However, I don't know if the more anarchist/extreme elements of OWS would agree on that direction. ...Nor do I think that whatever the outcome of the elections in November would either appease OWS much, or fix much in DC in general. It is a two-party system, and neither side will agree with the other, and the extreme elements on both sides will disagree with any compromise.

[-] 1 points by DSams (-71) 2 years ago

Direct (peaceful) action? Some certainly... especially if it spotlight's the elite's true nature. I would prefer to envision the Occupations as wandering minstrels of First Amendment marches...

Political extremists wear many stripes... it is up to us to vote them all out. We need reasonable people. Honest people. But we will not get that from the corrupt twin-party system.

It's time to democratically, Constitutionally, change the game, at the ballot box... If you support the status-quo, vote for a candidate. If you oppose it write-in "NO CONSENT" to withdraw your consent to be governed under the Constitution.

This is a direct, peaceful and Constitutional challenge to elite rule.

Question is: How many of us do not consent to the present conduct of the government of the United States of America?

www.theMultitude.org

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[-] -2 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

I expect you, troll, to climb back under your rock.

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[-] -2 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Don't you love these "earnest and probing" righties questions?

Hey chat, what's your plan, and what do you hope to achieve?

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

He hopes to achieve an uneducated population with ordinary people living in the streets, the elderly unable to retire, working until they drop dead, where you have to pay a toll to go down your own street (if you can afford to, otherwise you have to set up camp at the end of the street), where there is no healthcare for anyone but the 1%, etc. etc.

[-] -1 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Feudalism!

The real aspiration of today's Con and yesterday's Royalist, their ancestors.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

Thank you. Why don't they just say it?

[-] -3 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

It's not cognitive, it's impulsive.

[-] -3 points by beautifulworld (22138) 2 years ago

You are exactly right, because they don't even understand that that is the direction they want to take us in.

[-] 0 points by JIFFYSQUID92 (-994) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Spread the word!!

They believe, they don't think!

Think religious zealots. Hillbilly Taliban!

[+] -5 points by chatman (-478) 2 years ago

Geezz! you again ?