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Forum Post: What a horrible disgrace.

Posted 2 years ago on Jan. 30, 2012, 1:19 p.m. EST by SuperCat (60)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Are you guys a bunch of Anti-American punks or what?

http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/10/33/17/2208750/17/628x471.jpg

137 Comments

137 Comments


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[-] 3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I already know from the months that I wasted participating on this site that it's pointless to try to point this out, but when Occupiers vandalized public property and burned an American flag in Oakland, it hurt "the movement". It turned off potential mainstream supporters and it energized the most radical, anti-social, anarchist, fringe elements. None of that bodes well for accomplishing any kind of concrete objectives.

[-] 2 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

Bingo!

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

There is no point even talking about it. The people who understand have already lost interest. The people who remain just don't want to hear it.

[-] 0 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

Pretty much. The movement is straying from where it was ment to go. And because this fringe anarchistic movement is starting to gain traction it will splinter the overall movement.

[-] 2 points by boomshesaid2 (6) 2 years ago

I was with you guys, but after I have seen people burning the fucking flag. I am not with Occupy Wall Street any more. That's just fucking ridiculous

[-] 1 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 2 years ago

Fyi >>http://occupywallst.org/forum/attention-zuccotti-comrades-excellent-location-to-/

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Those people burning the flag do NOT represent me, or most of the others who support this movement. Do not judge the group as whole based on some "bad apples."

[-] 0 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

I didn't see any flag burning, vandalism, or the many other things your 'bad apples' have done at any Tea Party rallies. Ignorance attracts ignorance.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Whatever. I'm not going to change your mind no matter what you say, and you're not going to convince me to quit supporting this movement. This movement has an important message, and I will continue to support that message despite what a few kids are doing in Oakland.

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Who are the people in the photo and why are they burning the flag?

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

I don't know who they are,maybe a bunch of patriotic citizens

[-] 0 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

This is from the past weekend of Occupy Oakland. I would hope other GAs would condemn the actions that took place last weekend. DC has not had nearly the same violence as we saw in Oakland. I heard from friends we have a splinter group calling themselves the 99 percenters to distance themselves from the co-opted Occupy Oakland movement that uses violence to get their message out.

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[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I think that your friends tactic of forming a splinter group would only work as your friends want it to until it would grow and thus be infiltrated by anarchists and agents provocateur. Those who do violence need to be identified by Occupiers. Occupy needs to have arrested those who perpetrate acts of violence. Use of photo equipment and eye witness accounts as evidence are tools Occupiers should use and present to law enforcement authorities. Occupy needs to protect itself and chart an effective plan for doing so. Those plans need to be explained at the GAs prior to every action.

[-] 0 points by BystanderDC (91) 2 years ago

I agree 99% (sorry couldn't resist). The problem is that the GAsrefuse to really address this. I am tired of hearing about govt agents infiltrating the Occupy Movement. Part of this is my growing frustration with political parties sending in their staffers to co-opt the movement. It's been reported that democrats and republicans are having veteran political wonks join the movement and try to influence the groups. But when you attempt to expose them you are met with general inertia. Side note here is a good comparison between Occupy Oakland's mayhem and the Occupy DC Tent of Dreams.

Link: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0131/Occupy-Wall-St.-nonviolence-Is-Oakland-the-exception-or-the-future

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

Occupy Oakland boneheads. Here's another shot of a woman trying to speak some sense to them. http://tinyurl.com/72fyytl

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

So, may I then take it then that:

  1. Those who burned the American Flag are members of Occupy Oakland?

  2. The burning of said flag was an act of protest?

  3. You, BonTon, oppose flag burning as a means of protest?

Do you find burning the US flag offensive?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

I find it the equivalent of burning down your house to protest the land lord.

[-] 1 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

TN:

  1. Apparently
  2. Possibly
  3. Generally

I find it offensive but don't support outlawing it.

[-] -1 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

WHAT IS THE US FLAG? is it really a symbol thats even important? i mean its just a fag some guy drew up... screw tradition and start thinkin of a new world, the us flag is a symbol of power over other countries, and finally the citizens realize how terrible the states are!

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing that photo. Bless her for trying. This photo needs wide distribution.

[-] 1 points by sycamore (13) 2 years ago

how dare they deface such a sacred symbol of violent global imperialism and illusory domestic democracy!

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

It is "proper" to burn any flag that is no longer worthy of display.

Both the VFW and the Boy Scouts ROUTINELY burn U.S. flags.

[-] 1 points by pjts (7) 2 years ago

I agree.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Tacoma, WA 2 years ago

Well you politicians are pissing on the flag and the "principles on which it stands" Are you okay with that? Personally I think a much better tactic than burning flags is wearing them -- let the officers decide when they're beating you or spraying you whether they're really upholding the principles.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

I believe there is a significant market for nomex flags.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by boomshesaid2 (6) 2 years ago

WHo ever is the founder of this cause better publicly denounce the idea the this movement supports american flag burning or you are going to loose A lot of supporters.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

What's going on in Oakland? How's the economy there? I found these statistics from 2011 saying that the unemployment rate in Oakland is 16.2% :

http://www.bestplaces.net/city/california/oakland

From Wikipedia:

The unemployment rate as of August 2009 is 15.2%.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

The unemplyment rate has nothing to do with it.

Burning the flag credibility points for OWS.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

How do you know that? Do you know those people personally? Have you spoken to them?

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

They are smiling. Look at them. They are proud of their actions. What I meant was that the uneployment rate should not compel you to burn the flag.

By the way, the unemplyment rate in Oakland as of Nov 2011 is 8.7%

http://bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm

There are thousands of jobs availabe in Oalkand California.

http://jobsearch.monster.com/search/?where=Oakland__2C-CA

http://tinyurl.com/88qzoj5

The point is this... It is bad for OWS to enguage in this type of activity.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

No. That is the unemployment rate for San Francisco, Oakland and Fremont.

It is bad behavior, agreed, but to just denounce it without trying to figure out the cause, well, honestly, can bring about more problems. World history is rife with resistance and violence brought about by economic injustice. If it's happening here in our own country than we should take heed. Not dismiss.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I think we can denounce the behavior and seriously address the underlying conditions which may result in people feeling so powerless and angry that they engage in destructive actions.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

Now you're making sense. I would agree.

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[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

There is no real cause. It was just kids feeling empowered.

It is like setting the mailbox on fire because your daddy wouldn't give you an allowance because you did not do your homework.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

That's your opinion.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

It sure is...

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

Its not all of OWS. Its these few people... Until you find video of a GA vote that supported this action, don't attack everyone for what a few people did.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

But they told us the tea party was racist because of a few people.

That is how it works.

The media plays the hell out of these things. That is why we need to prevent them at all costs.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

These kinds of things are nearly impossible to prevent, especially with a protest of such an open nature. The best thing to do is to distance one-self from these actions, and use the power of numbers to loudly state "these people do NOT represent US!"

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Yes, and unfortunately, Occupy Oakland has not done that.

[-] 0 points by XenuLives (1645) from Charlotte, NC 2 years ago

If I was there, I would put it up to a proposal at the GA...

If you really want to, email them or post on their Facebook page:

http://occupyoakland.org/

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

If the local community aren't inclined to do it, I doubt my voice would matter. A non-violence proposal was brought to my GA and although the precise language has not yet been agreed on, there was unanimous agreement about not engaging in these sorts of actions.

[-] 1 points by Mrrotten (18) 2 years ago

The American flag is outdated and obsolete. Replace the 50 stars w the logos of the 50 largest corporate entities and you have a truer representation of what America stands for in the 21st century.

The US flag of old used to be a beautiful thing. The US Gov no longer listens to or represents the will of the people- it the, Parent Corporation, is only beholden to Money: Lobbyists + their Corporate Money.

I'm personally a lot more offended by the undue influence and stranglehold that Corporate America has on my Gov than someone exercising their right to protest.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

I don't see the flag as representing the current state of the nation. To me, it is a symbol of the values expressed in the constitution: due process of law, separation of powers, representative democracy, freedom of speech and assembly, freedom from unreasonable searches, etc.

The state of the nation today is a perversion of the values the flag symbolizes. So for people who view it as I do, burning the flag expresses contempt for values we hold dear. Those values are not outdated and obsolete. They are sorely needed.

[-] 0 points by Mrrotten (18) 2 years ago

The flag represents the country. period. from its inception to the present time. you can't pick and choose values or periods of time.

"I don't see the flag as representing the current state of the nation." then, by definition, it's obsolete.

You talk about constitution values. Did those so called values pertain to Blacks, Women, Indians, etc? Do we really have representative democ !? or is Gov beholden to corporate $$$$$$$$$ ?

[-] 2 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Sorry, you don't get to dictate what it means to me or anyone else. Nor would I insist that you adopt my meaning for yourself.

The good thing about the constitution is that it can, and has been changed. At the inception, the people you mentioned were excluded. By amendment, first blacks, and then women were included. Now, many of us are working for another amendment to establish that corporations are not people and money is not speech. Once that is adopted, I think it will go a long way to making the government responsive to all the people.

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[-] 1 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

DEAR GOD! there burning the flag! do you know how much plastic fibres cost these days! and not to mention we all owe our lives to that flag! literally... stupiid idiots placing importance on a dahm flag, the flag of coersion, a stupid flag that means I AM A COUNTRY... man patriots are diluted

[-] 1 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

im canadian and its not out stupid flag i care about, its a little blue and green ball, make a flag of that, wtf is canada, its all forms of seperation, all stemming from wealth, or religion in the past.. racisim, sexism, are tactics used for seperation, well the patriot illusion is the best. hey citizens, china is bad, they are communist! it is much better to vote on the president of the corporate entity know as the U.S

[-] 1 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

you americans, canadians, democrats... youve never voted on something meaningful. its unbeleivable that people think a corporation could behave differently based on its president, which has less power than the average president of a corporation. youve always been communist, YOU MUST PARTICIPATE IN THE SYSTEM. there is no everyone has rights etc. patriots need to first realize that their country was just founded and controled, it wasnt a magical declaration or amendment or whatever it is you people cite when you talk about rights... its a global jail system and you take offence to the burning of the nazi, america flag that controls you ? i mean the us srry i get confused..

[-] 0 points by skylar (-441) 2 years ago

Yes, you are confused.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

Only Brave canadian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwbTLVSSwxA and french http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68072V5iEx4 people are capable for civil unrest like this.

[-] 3 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

People are often "brave" when they are in a group. They were especially brave when the police started backing up. It made the mob feel more powerful. One the first person in the group breaks something and nothing happens "brave" people in the group think "hey, he did that and nothing happened, I can do it too!" I am part of the powerful group. This is exciting. I feel powerful.

"Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up."

Mahatma Gandhi

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

you did answer yourself. when batch are growing to pride it becomes massive and violent. i saw this movie about Mahatma Gandhi. people are got beat up by police without resistance as taking a sacrifice . So it makes police mans feel guilty, embarrassed and betrayed. nice, you got my point man

[-] 1 points by shooz (17785) 2 years ago

Here's the thing.

Protesters attack symbols.........Flags, windows, spaces, barricades, words, ideas. Things like that.

Those pitted against them................physically attack the individual.

Clubs, fists, hand cuffs, tear gas, motorcycles. That kind of thing.

I see a very real difference.

Do you?

[-] 2 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

anyone you can get THAT offended off a flag is CRAZY, i wasnt even offended when i learned astromomy and found out jesus is a metaphor for the son and the 12 constellations, haha. i mean the flag represents so many terrible things, time for a new flag, maybe an open hand on black and white haha

[-] 2 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

99% will interpret it as -> Anti American <-

There are many ways to protest. You have to think about how your actions will be interpreted. They will often be interpreted incorrectly so it is best to not open the door.

"Perception is reality."

This has craeted a picture that will be difficult to correct. The media will play this over and over and over....

The media will play this over, and over, and over, and over….

[-] 0 points by shooz (17785) 2 years ago

A great example of one way propaganda works.

"The media will play this over, and over, and over, and over…"

And to think, you bought right into it.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I am not buying into anything, I am expressing concern that most people will. I know these are a bunch of kids looking for attention. I get that. They probably do not even know why they burned the flag. Someone saw it there and someone probably said hey, let's burn the flag.

People are often "brave" when they are in a group. Once the first person in the group breaks something and nothing happens other "brave" people in the group think "hey, he did that and nothing happened, I can do it too!" I am part of this mighty group. This is exciting. I feel powerful.

"Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up."

Mahatma Gandhi

[-] 0 points by shooz (17785) 2 years ago

You say you "didn't buy into it", and then extrapolate on the ways that you did buy into it.

Amazing how effective propaganda is, don't you think?

You didn't even notice.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I extrapolate on the ways others will buy into it. As I said, I know these are a small group of kids looking for attention. A splinter group that felt empowered.

It is very damaging to the cause. It is not the first incident in Oakland people will start to draw their own conclusions.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17785) 2 years ago

Right. And it just aligned with the propaganda by accident.

That's how propaganda works. You just think it's natural.

[-] 1 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

Zzzzzzzzzz

[-] 2 points by shooz (17785) 2 years ago

Passed out drunk again????

Don't hurt your fingers on the keyboard.

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[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I don't like flag burning, but only it because it turns off so many people. It is in fact excessive love of flag, too great a nationalism at all costs, that is Fascistic.

But have you stopped to ask yourself why it was burned? Have you thought that maybe the act is, in fact, patriotic. and that it represents a disaffection with what America has come to mean, as opposed to the myth of what it is? That it expresses a desire for America to become what the flag is supposed to symbolize, but no longer does? That the real debasing of the flag (really, what it stands for) has been done by those who are its leaders, and this action highlights that actual debasement with a symbolic action? Is the burning of the flag, offensive as it is, anywhere close to the offensiveness of killing at least a couple of hundreds of thousands of people in a war that was based on lies? Or more offensive than the deep poverty this country has created at home, robbing tens of millions of people of their dignity?

I am certainly offended by the flag burning. I am far more offended by the reasons that inspired it.

[-] 3 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

They do not look angry to me. If you look they are smiling. Just like when they trashed the place, and destroyed the children’s art exhibit. Just like the way they were smiling when they trashed the Whole Foods store a few months ago.

Why, because they a losers and it makes them feel bigger and more important than they are. Truth is, they have irreparably damaged the OWS movement. This is all over the news and will be for a few weeks.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

so a few US bombs killed children in Libya get over it

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

As I said, I don't like the flag burning, and don't agree with it as a tactic.

That said, don't be fooled by the smiling faces. People often feel good when they believe, rightly or wrongly, that they are doing good, when they are accomplishing something they believe furthers their goals. I don't share their assessment, but if that's what they believed, they are not likely to be scowling.

I hadn't heard of any children's exhibition or Whole Foods market being trashed. That doesn't sound like OWS to me, since it espouses non-violence. Are you sure those two incidents are not the work of splinter groups?

[-] 2 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

Splinter groups are considered part of the group. That is what happend to the Tea Party when a splinter racist group held a rally. The media grabs on to the splinter groups because they sell more papers, get more ratings....

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

In fact the Tea Party was funded and hosted by White Supremacist groups from its inception.

But I would agree, somewhat, that the very structure of OWS has an Achilles' heel. Its openness and lateralism, both aspects of classic anarchism, and its greatest strength, also leaves it open to hijacking,

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

You prove my point by the statement you made.

You buy into the story of a white Supremacist tea party just as folks will buy into the idea that OWS was started by and consists of anarchists, communists, and hoodlums.

People see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Well, I followed the Tea Party from its inception before it went big. Much of the early money and hosting sites in the Southeast came from White Supremacists. Its chief organizer was DIck Army. Tat funding and organizational support was largely unknown to the rank and file, but without it, the Tea Party would have been still born.

As to OWS, it was indeed founded by anarchists in Battery Park in lower Manhattan. It was not communists or hoodlums, but anarchists. Anarchism is a political philosophy. It does not refer to lack of order or promotion of destruction. It simply means, in this context, a disavowal of political hierarchy. That's why the structure is lateral and leaderless, at least in theory, if not in practice.

Sometimes, even if it is accidental or for the wrong reasons, the media gets it right. OWS itself calls the flag-burners "autonomous people". It does not claim them, but neither does it renounce them. I have no problem with that. But I think, like you, that it is a serious error of judgement on their part not to coach people before any action, even though it is consistent with the inclusiveness that OWS operates with.

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

You need to go research further.

The tea party movement started with an email chain in 2008 to "Send a teabag to congress" to protest George Bush's spending and TARP program. I went to a tea party rally that was in the communitiy center where my daughter was skating in 2008 while I wqas waiting for her. It was mostly a bunch of seniors and parents of kids in town. The focus was on keeping it a leaderless movement that would use symbolic protest like sending a teabag to congress. It was even suggested to send a virtual teabage (notecard) because sending a real teabag might caluse problems with the congressional mail system.

The tea party groups created a facebook page and later a web site called teapartypatriots.org. Dick Army's FreedomWorks site has been up since 1992. Because the TP was leaderless folks like Dick Army and the GOP began to move in. The GOP created TeaPartyExpress.org which is a GOP backed web site and a tour that attemped (quite successfully) to hijack the TP.

Sarah Palin was not selected by the TP she was selected by McCain as a running mate because she was known for cutting excess in Alaska. He knew the TP was strong and awas all about cutting waste. Politicians knew that if they talked TP speak they had a better chance of winning. It did work and many got elected pushing out long time congressmen and women. The media later crowned these people tea party leaders.

Teh concept of OWS was started by a Canadian medai outlet called Adbusters. They wanted a Tarhir moment in the US. They put up a website and an email chan to Occupy Wall Street on September 17 2011.

In the end the media will show that OWS is a violent bunch of hoodlums. That sells more papers and gets better ratings.

[-] -1 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

Occupy was founded in Canada.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

It was conceived and named in Canada, and the original artwork, emails, and plans for dates originated there. However, the first meeting was in Battery Park, organized by an anarchist. David Graeber, a fifty-year-old professor at the University of London and an anarchist theorist, helped facilitate the first meeting, and created the organizational structure for the occupation. That structure was anarchism, and the movement was founded on anarchist foundations.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/david-graeber-the-antileader-of-occupy-wall-street-10262011.html

[-] 0 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

You spew this drivel like you are proud of what this represents. Also, how artsy is it that the initial planning involved artwork first followed by contacting people. I see more songs about occupy than rational thoughts. All of those Fine Arts majors getting put to good use.

Check this out, if you don't like it in this country, LEAVE! But that thought never crosses your mind because you KNOW America is the best place on this planet.

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Clearly you really like the corruption and destruction of American democracy this movement is protesting. You like the fact that banks write the laws YOU must abide by, not the people you voted for who promised to represent YOUR interests.

I, on the other hand, like democracy, and am willing to fight for it. Even if it means idiots like you get a vote that counts for something.

At least you chose your handle well: you really are simple minded. Simpleton would have been even better.

[-] 0 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

You're worried about everyone else but, how are you doing personally? Not well I assume. That's the problem with the persona of Occupy; we know what's better for you and we are willing to yell louder than you to prove it.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Seems to me that you are the one worried. There is no other reason for you to be here on this site.

Clearly you really like the corruption and destruction of American democracy this movement is protesting. You like the fact that banks write the laws.

Since you hate democracy, maybe it's YOU who should leave this country.

[-] 0 points by Simpleminded (28) 2 years ago

I enjoy the opportunities this country has given me and I am grateful. What's your excuse for staying here?

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Same as yours. But our democracy has been stolen. Tens of milions of people have lost their jobs, their homes, their health insurance, their pensions. And they lost it all because a few very wealthy people wrote the rules that made it happen. We, you and I, didn't have a say. We thought we elected people to represent us, but instead they represented only the interests of those very few, very wealthy people. Congress has been bought and sold, just like a credit default swap.

This country was originally founded because it rebelled against corporate oligarchy, which is what the British were back then. But Exxon, Godman/Sachs and Citibank have turned us into the very oligarchy that we originally threw off.

That's not the America I recognize. That's not the democracy I would lay my life down to protect. This movement is not about denigrating this country and its ideals; it is about reclaiming the America we grew up with.

[-] -2 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

You sir, are a liar.

[-] 2 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

No, Sir I am not. You, Sir, have ben lied to by your leaders.

[-] 0 points by uncensored (104) 2 years ago

Look who's talking, moron!

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I have indeed been lied to by my leaders. Unlike you though, I know it.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

I was around, as an adult, during the hippy '60's. This whole thing is reminiscent of it. I recall that one of the media asked one of them why they are protesting. Their answer? "I want to be a non-conformist like everybody else." Perhaps just belonging to a group satisfy some.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

Great post, epa1nter.

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[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Do you find the act of burning of the American flag disgraceful?

Are you opposed to other certain forms of dissent and protest as well?

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

First I believe people can do what they want with their own property. If you want to burn your own Amercan flag go for it. This flag however belonged to the city of Oakland.

That said, I think it sends a message that is unpopular with 99% of America and portrays the movement in a bad light. The flag was just one part of the destruciton. The behavior if not checked will be the downfall of OWS.

I am not oppsed to any form of protest as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. I do think the days events worked against OWS and it will be hard to repair the damage.

"Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up."

Mahatma Gandhi

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

Thanks for your answers.

The Gandhi quote is exactly correct, I think. However, if the anger comes from "the other side" and is utilized correctly by those who are non-violent, anger can be a powerful fuel for the engine of non-violent change - winning in the court of popular opinion.

In the "heat of the moment" remaining non-violent can seem like an impossibility because it can seem counter-intuitive. Overcoming the instinct of "fight/flight" is a challenge to be sure. Ego can enter into this equation and then we have a recipe for a PR disaster.

Occupiers need to remember that this movement is still growing and sort of "finding it's legs", if you will and if we desire to win hearts and minds for the purpose of gaining a grass roots support then we need to be very mindful of how our actions appear to the world at large.

If we are acting out of rage and anger rather than a place of altruism and a peaceful sense of purpose we will fail in our cause. It is up to each of us to remember the goal at all times and what it will take from all of us to get there. Brains, discipline, guts and determination.

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

Someone posted a video of an escalation at a protest in Canada.

People are often "brave" when they are in a group. If you watch they were especially brave when the police started backing up. It made the mob feel more powerful.

The first person in the group that breaks something usually does it caustiously and then everyone looks to see if there is a response. The next person is a little less caustios. When nothing happens "brave" people in the group think "hey, they did that and nothing happened, I can do it too!" I am part of the powerful group. This is exciting. I feel powerful. As in the case in OWS situation a peaceful and thoughtful person complains. The problem is that all the media will shoe is the police car on fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwbTLVSSwxA

Watch the video and notice how the behaior of the crowd changes when the police back off.

[-] 2 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I agree that is possible that some of the demonstrators did get "caught up" in the moment and participated in the violence that was instigated by agents provocateur. It's a tactic used by those who want organized demonstrations to fail by becoming discredited through acts of violence such as smashing windows and burning police cars.

People involved in demonstrations need to become savvy about the ways others can affect their own mental state during a demonstration. People in the video spoke about this very thing. I'm fortunate enough to have been interested and involed in demonstrations during the early 1970s and there was a learning curve then about how to act and importantly, how to react, what to say, etc.

Many of the lessons learned from the past are being applied to this modern era of protest - tactics adapted through trial and error of past movements. Perhaps we may learn of a method of ferreting out those bent on creating havoc and destruction during a demonstration by a certain subset among the group tasked with doing so.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Fascism means Roman People for Roman Rule

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Yeah we try to keep fascist cop agent provocateurs out, but it's hard to recognize them. They look like cops to me here in this photo.

You should research COINTELPRO. Infiltrate and discredit is an old tactic.

[-] 1 points by neizuc (52) 2 years ago

An old tactic of people who try and shake off personal responsibility for their actions is to find someone to blame all of their mistakes on.

Anytime the police screw up they are fascists, anytime OWS screws up it was someone else's fault. OWS seems to have learned their personal accountability lessons from BP.

[-] 3 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Sure, it is possible that those individuals do consider themselves OWSers. If so, they are harming our cause -- perhaps they might have conflated the American flag with the Nazi swaztika. The swaztika was a symbol of power, the flag is a symbol of freedom, our constitution, and the first Revolutionary War.

I believe we OWSers should 'take the flag back and if you want to fight us, you'll have to trample it under'. This is the second (but nonviolent) Revolutionary War.

[-] 1 points by timirninja (263) 2 years ago

everybody see what they want to to see. i see provocation against OWS movement. Usually people which counters were occupied are burning american flags. What they did in Oakland just dumb

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

This is all over the news so YES it is damaging the cause. As is the damage done to the state house and the damage done ouside with spray painting grafitti.

[-] -2 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

Another conspiracy of The Man. You can almost see the shadows of the black helicopters hovering overhead.

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Sorry, this dog don't bark. You shills need to go back to COINTELPRO psyops central and get a new strategy and tactic.

Painting positions with ridicule only works when the balance of opinion is heavily on the psyopers side. It ain't anymore.

You come off looking like a jackass. By the way, you left out Bigfoot -- I guess you didn't get that memo.

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

AMIRACA? Is that a new country I wasn't aware of?

[-] 0 points by moochild (-43) 2 years ago

Obama said not to burn the flag that has all "57 States" on it

[-] 0 points by iwantfreemoneynow (58) 2 years ago

They are merely children of their time, futures stolen by an educational system that taught them they couldn't succeed, the game was rigged, America is an oppressive, imperialistic bully and certainly not a place of opportunity.

They are stunted by their beliefs, they can never be more than dependents on the elite because there is no opportunity for them. They can only vote Democrat and hope for crumbs from their masters. No wonder they're angry.

[-] 0 points by Mrrotten (18) 2 years ago

The American flag is outdated and obsolete. Replace the 50 stars w the logos of the 50 largest corporate entities and you have a truer representation of what America stands for in the 21st century.

The US flag of old used to be a beautiful thing. It is les a symbol of liberty and justice and more a symbol of Corporate greed and the undue influence and stranglehold they have on the US Gov, the parent corporation, which no longer listens to the will of the people but only recognizes Lobbyists and their Corporate Money.

I'm more offended by the bastards of Corp US than a citizen exercising their right to protest.

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[-] 0 points by moochild (-43) 2 years ago

Obama also says the flag is outdated and he wants the star amount increased to "57" For all the 57 States he wants to campaign in

[-] 0 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

SuperCat, you are one dumb-son-of-a-bitch.

Those people are burning the admiralty flag. They can burn all of those they can get their hands on. That flag is not even legal.

This is our flag.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/revolutionary-war/patriots/pictures/old-glory.jpg

The flag you link to is hanging in our courts where they REFUSE to recognize our constitutional rights.

The only thing those people did wrong is to not replace the gold fringed piece of shit with OUR title 4 flag, as described in the constitution. After replacing it they should have guarded it to prevent that crap fringe thing from coming back.

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[-] 0 points by Mrrotten (18) 2 years ago

The flag is just another form of idiotic nationalistic mind control. If everyone in every country would burn their flag the world would be a much better place.

[-] 0 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

SuperCat: You say "Anti-American".

I say: "American" = FREEDOM.

Which then makes me think that you are ultimately saying that those people are Anti-FREEDOM?

According to you, those people burning the flag must actually have the desire to be locked up in a cell. What do you think, do they really want that?

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I say Anti Amercian because that is the message they are sending.

First I believe people can do what they want with their own property. If you want to burn your own Amercan flag go for it. This flag however belonged to the city of Oakland.

That said, I think it sends a message that is unpopular with 99% of America and portrays the movement in a bad light. The flag was just one part of the destruciton. The behavior if not checked will be the downfall of OWS.

I am not oppsed to any form of protest as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. I do think the days events worked against OWS and it will be hard to repair the damage.

"Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up."

Mahatma Gandhi

[-] 0 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

That is the message that YOU are interpreting.

You and I are mostly in agreement. I especially love your quote from Gandhi. I'm a big fan of his... and of Thomas Jefferson.

I do think that most people just want FREEDOM. So in essence, they want the government to adhere to our Constitution.

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

99% will interpret it that way -> Anti American <-

There are many ways to protest. You have to think about how your actions will be interpreted whether they are interpreted correctly or not. "Perception is reality."

The media will play this over, and over, and over, and over….

[-] 1 points by spike3194 (4) 2 years ago

how could you be pro america? there is still a reason to be patriotic? i mean its a nicely colored flag but its kind of disgusting. i mean, really, are you americans? or humans first, and anyways its like all these people are dogs praising there master, America is pathetic, and it isnt the citizens how could they be patriotic, freedom has existed millions of times, and in every instance it was better that the all high and mighty symbol of "freedom" the states.. more like slave freedom , you may own as many as you want. or naking freedom whatever

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I love the USA. Just about everything about it. Sure there are issues but I would not want to live anywhere else.

[-] 0 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

I do have to agree with you, the action of burning our country's flag does little to promote a positive message. The flag, after all, does represent "Freedom".

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to The Republic for which it stands..."

If only there were a flag for The Federal Reserve... or the IMF... I'd say burn those.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

fuck the american flag, this isnt my country. if it was then how come my family hasnt owned any land for 3 generations now.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

Because they did not buy any. Duh There is plenty of land for sale in America. In fact you can buy land in Wyoming, Texzas, South Dakota and other states for as little as $179/Acre

I started working and saving when I was 14. I am on my third house bought a house fixed it up over 5 years sold it bought another fixed it up....

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

where, everytime i look they have a minimum of 1000 acres attached to it.

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[-] 0 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 2 years ago

Your question leads me to have a lot of questions for you. For starters: 1) Are you and your family members U.S. citizens? 2) Have you or any of them been convicted of a felony that was violent in nature?

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

not only am I a us citizen, one of my great grand parents was american indian. nope, been living the law of the gospel most of my life. I am honest in all my dealings with man. neither has any of my family even spent one night in jail, not my mother, not my grandmother, not I.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

How about trying to figure out where all the anger is coming from? What about the root of it?

[-] 3 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

They do not look angry to me. If you look they are smiling. Just like when they trashed the place, and destroyed the children’s art exhibit. Just like the way they were smiling when they trashed the Whole Foods store a few months ago.

Why, because they a losers and it makes them feel bigger and more important than they are. Truth is, they have irreparably damaged the OWS movement. This is all over the news and will be for a few weeks.

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

No. I agree with you. It's bad stuff. I'm just wondering what is at the root of it. The behavior is coming from somewhere, as are their smiles. This is not normal behavior. They are almost beyond their anger.

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I am not sure they were ever really angry.

Humans long to be part of a group. It has been that way for millions of years. This urge is especially strong with teens and young adults. This is why and how both Stalin and Hitler created their youth movements. The “Hitler Youth” organization was a very important part of the Third Reich.

There are some great books on the subject two that were made into movies. One is called “The Wave” and another is called “Swing Kids” which include a counter youth movement.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

Very interesting points. I will give it all some more thought. I still feel like something more is at the root of it.

[-] 0 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

Here is a trailer for Swing Kids (Great Moveie, very emotional)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX7AReML354

Here is a tralier for "The Wave" (very intense and scary)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDkxV47qd4w It was originally released in the early 80s and re-release in 2008.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

Thank you. I'll watch them.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

"The Wave" is based on a true story and the real experience of a high school class in Palo Alto, CA in April 1967

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

I watched the trailers. Movies are not the best way to get your history, I'm sure you know that. Regardless, though, there is something behind the violent behavior and maybe you are on to something with this psychological stuff. I just don't know. I can't pretend to know.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I read the books. Both are based on true stories. The SJ did exist as did the swing kids.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

I will try to watch them sometime. I have them on my long list of books and movies to get. Thanks.

[-] -2 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

I'm not sure that's really in doubt. They're anarchists. And if it is in question, then they're really screwing up in the "messaging" department.

Anyhow, once the perps are arrested, I'm sure they'll explain everything.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

I don't think just because they are anarchists we should dismiss what they are angry about. Seems to me that maybe things are worse in Oakland than elsewhere. I don't know. I'm just thinking. You may attack me now BonTon.

[-] -1 points by BonTon (57) 2 years ago

Aw, it's no fun when you give me permission.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21413) 2 years ago

LOL!

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 2 years ago

vile brainwashed, haters need to move to china, iran, iraq, or cuba, north korea etc,,,,love it or leave it...get out now.

[-] -1 points by sycamore (13) 2 years ago

This country is a fascist country, flag burners are anti-fascists if anything. The US is the most violent empire the world has ever seen. We are not accountable for its violence insofar as we fight it and cease to identify with the false identity it beats into us.

[-] 1 points by SuperCat (60) 2 years ago

I cannot argue with the violence part bet the US does not have a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, with severe economic and social regimentation.