Forum Post: We need help in Oakland!
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 9, 2011, 2:28 a.m. EST by Hobohemian
(260)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
.... and no, I don't mean that we need 100 tents or we need money. There are some disturbing and disappointing things happening here in Oakland. Let me just say, not as a way of establishing "cred", but just to be clear -- I've lived in Oakland for 13 years-plus, I've had several stints of teaching here in the Oakland Unified School District, I still live and work and play here.
Again, I say this not to puff myself up but because I am a member of the community, and many people in Oakland are backing off their support of Occupy Oakland because of the random violence and destruction caused by a fringe of people at both of our most recent marches. Even some businesses that had closed in solidarity with our General Strike were struck by the vandalism. That's unacceptable no matter what your view of ultimate goals or tactics is.
I love Occupy Oakland; I don't want to see it become a disgrace to the Town or to the Occupy Wall Street movement. I've been to New Mexico and I've visited the Occupy Santa Fe camp and seen how great it is there. Oakland has some things to offer the bigger Occupy movement, but we don't seem to be able to reach a statement against non-violence and random vandalism. It has degenerated into a shouting match.
People are trying to say that by even talking about vandalism, you are being divisive. But I feel that the issue itself SHOULD be divisive. If somebody wants to be violent and destructive, I'm tired of them using the rest of us as a huge human shield. I've marched here in Oakland, Berkeley and San Francisco for the last decade, and I've seen these "black bloc" people smash random citizens' cars and vandalize pubic property just to get their own egos off, even in the name of opposing the war against Iraq. It doesn't even matter if it's about plastic bags, global warming, or drone attacks on American citizens -- this particular group of cowards always shows up and smashes stuff and then runs away and lets other people like Scott Olsen take the blows from the cops. Most of us in the "protest community" here in the SF area have been fucking sick of this shit for a long long time. The fact that it actually has enough traction in the Oakland GA to block any mild statement against vandalism or violence threatens the ability of people such as myself in the Oakland community to support the Occupy Oakland movement, and by extension clearly threatens the entire Occupy Wall Street movement.
I urge you, I beg you, to begin a dialog about establishing a resolution that Oakland could endorse to assure its peaceful supporters that the Occupy Oakland movement does not endorse violence and vandalism.
I can tell you with certainty that Occupy Bethlehem stands in solidarity with Occupy Oakland. We're combating potential violence here as well. Seems there are lots of kids, angry as hell (with good reason), maybe read some Marx, and they just view this as an opportunity to tear shit up. Older folks have engaged them in conversation and are working to teach them some of the lessons they have learned through decades of activism. I noticed this problem long ago ... we've adopted a sort of laissez-faire approach to raising children, as families and communities, and the inherent destructiveness of our apathy is now becoming evident. You can't blame the youth -- please, reach out to them and let them know that they are not completely on their own in their struggles.
Thank you for your response, it is truly inspiring and I am going to redouble my efforts along those lines. At least we do have an open dialog now about it, if not through a resolution in the GA it is going on in smaller groups for the last few weeks. But I feel that if the Occupy Oakland movement expects us to march with them, I mean by "us" all the people who are in the community and not camping every day, they need to be clear about whether violence is tolerated or not. Violence will probably happen anyway, given the truly brutal and arbitrary behavior of our own police force, but given the presence of police plants and instigators, but if the GA of Occupy Oakland can't even bring itself to endorse non-violence then it gets hard for many of us to support it when the damage is happening to our downtown and to even our small businesses.
Too many red flags raised by your post. Occupy Oakland, from my summation, does not endorse violence -- perfectly clear. Damage to our downtowns and small businesses? Well, Hobohemian, that's a product of our corporatocracy (inner cities especially due to institutionalized racism), certain not a few agitators who are using this Occupation as an excuse to blow off some steam.
Nichole, no, at this point the GA at Occupy Oakland does not endorse anything on the topic of violence. All discussion is cut off by the agitators. The agitators are a group that fancies themselves anarchists. They were masks and engage in vandalism and violence at every occasion. The group is older than Occupy Oakland. They go back to the Oscar Grant protests, maybe even earlier, and have been using their cowardly tactics all along.
From what I surmise and guess, Hobohemian is not in the camp. But he lives in Oakland. He stops by after work to support the camp and participates in actions, he has been to GA several times and has a number of contacts among the campers. He is enthusiastic about the potential of the movement but fears its collapse is eminent if they can't get rid of these punks.
Thank you, I was skeptical (gotta be it seems). I'm thankful for both of your explanations because we have been trying to understand what happened in Oakland. I will share what you have raised with my fellow Occupiers. Please share more because, as I said before, we truly stand in solidarity, and we wish to support you and prevent similar co-optations of the Movement to happen here. Seriously, if you could start documenting everything from inside Oakland, it would greatly benefit the entire movement. Thank you and keep sharing.
I will share as much as I can here, and also please contact me at my generic email dropbox, originalfunkyfry@yahoo.com, and we can remain in contact. I am very interested in passing along lessons learned and in gaining wisdom likewise from other groups and individuals. We are a very young movement, we are worldwide nonetheless. It is truly inspiring. We need all voices interacting with all other voices.
If you truly wish to guide people to your box -- lose the computer-generated sounding tone. It's been a pleasure... good day.
weird... that's me, not a computer.... I'm kind of offended that you are basically telling me how I should speak my mind. "Lose my tone"? I thought this was all about everybody's voice being heard. I am telling you how it is here in Oakland. I am puzzled by your response. I've never shared out my email to anybody ever on these boards. I was trying to reach out to you and you are telling me I am being 'generic." I'm distressed. But I have a lot of other things on my soul right now here, so please do best for whatever it is that you need to do.
Well, maybe I just provided you with some much-needed feedback.
Thank you for your comments sfsteve.... there are a lot of anarchists of all different types probably involved in all the camps, and I'm sure most of them are peaceful folk who want to see our communities improved and so forth. Part of the problem is the ideological anarchists' refusal to sanction or hold to account the violent anarchists, so that they become enablers in most of our eyes. But finally I've had the chance to talk to them. In past years, they would show up at marches against the war on Iraq and Afghanistan, or against police brutality, and you'd wonder: "who the fuck are these people? Why would you choose to protest brutality with more brutality?" And now I've been given this unique chance to dialog with them and with the people who don't support them but who think they should have a chance to do what they want anyway. So you can never really pose it as, "get rid of the punks." It's more about, can we face up to the challenge of what this situation presents us and turn that energy in a positive direction?
Because the energy isn't going away no matter what resolution we pass.
"we've adopted a sort of laissez-faire approach to raising children, as families and communities, and the inherent destructiveness of our apathy is now becoming evident"------------------------------------------
At the root of this are ideas and philosophies of the wrongly named "liberal" left, the "progressives", the anti-family anti-tradition anti-capitalist indoctrination, and the lack of insight into what happens directly to the human brain, thereby thinking and behavior, when motivation and self-reliance is stripped from, and from an early age, ingrained into the human psyche and experience.
It sounds like they are some type of serial sociopaths. I am sure the police are as interested in knowing who they are as the OWS. Who knows what other crimes they are committing
When they show track them down with your friends and camera. Give the info to the police. These people are no different than any other criminal and should pay for their crime.
I agree with you, but there are problems with the structure of the whole Occupy movement right now, judging from Oakland, because the GA is considered the only authority in the whole camp. Security is very minimal and frankly ineffective. Everyone is in danger there, including regular citizens like myself who show up. If we try to take their pictures, which many of us have done, we are yelled at and called snitches and sometimes they attack us and our cameras. I actually don't own a camera, so that was a "we" in solidarity with the people doing that. I have also heard that in some Occupy camps rapes have occurred and the result has been a group sit down meeting. No report to the police. That is deeply troubling and it shows we have some very painful issues to confront in our young subculture. It's not just about what is happening in Oakland.... we need to be learning lessons here.
Everyone is in danger from who or what? Are you implying that the OWS protesters are the threat?
I thought you were talking about the anarchist
No, a lot of the "anarchist" people are actually the most peaceful people among us. There's just some particular people, who are kind of giving anarchism a bad name, who are like loud and disrespectful to the GA process itself, and then the danger comes from the fact that the cops are afraid to come near the Plaza. It's Oakland, there's a lot of crime and it's not safe for a lot of people to feel like they can show up to a general assembly. It was safe a week ago, but now it is kinda bizarre down there.
We had only about 250 tonight at most, whereas I would say most people in the larger Bay Area actually agree with the goals of Occupy Wall Street, they aren't being represented very well at Occupy Oakland. However, the scene tonight at Occupy Oakland was incredible.... elder hippies singing labor protest songs, indigenous elders sending us messages from the ancestors, great conversations between so man diverse people, we voted for a proposition to make Occupy Oakland a Sanctuary area, and to demand that the City of Oakland stop all co-operation with I.C.E. We had another, somewhat more constructive, debate about violence.
OPD is about to move in and commit acts of political violence upon us. Some have decided to remain; many are devoted to non-violence, some are ready to confront the police. But all of them believe that they are doing what they need to do; they are not random street kids or homeless people like the media makes them out... all those people left days ago. But I personally cannot put my body in front of the fascist police when I'm expected to stand in solidarity with people who believe in perpetuating the cycle of violence. I will, however, show up to rebuild the camp and continue the Occupy movement here in Oakland.
OCCUPY = PEACE
Anyone who commits acts of violence or destruction of property is not a member of Occupy.
Occupy is a peaceful protest only. Worst case scenario boycotts will happen. Their main goal is to inform the world of the injustice brought upon us through the government, which has made bribery legal, that has taken away our several of our constitutional rights, the massive difference in economic inequality, the unconstitutional privatized monetary system, and the atrocities that have happened in our hijacked capitalistic economy that has been turned into a monetary dictatorship by many corporations that have committed fraud and have even killed people through negligence.
This next part is aimed at the opposition: "First, let me state a positive party point for you. Corporations are necessary for a world growing like ours. This is true. They can provide infrastructures and research to develop technologies that small businesses would not be able to effectively produce on their own (at least without a great deal of effort). We are not opposing this. We are, however, not ignorant to the atrocities that they have committed in order to further their monetary actions. There are select people of extraordinary wealth that have exploited the system for personal, selfish gain, at the expense of the American people (or, really, any country in the world). The morality of it is reprehensible. That is something that we do oppose."
Last week before the beautiful general strike, we were still standing there somewhat divided by huge banners that read stuff like "Death to Capitalism" which many of us don't take seriously or in any way support. Many of us favor radical reform. None of this division surprises me or distracts me from our shared goals. But the inability of the direct democracy embodied in the GA to address something as basic as vandalism against random targets and violence against police is really disturbing. I am not anonymous. I am a member of the community in Oakland, and in order for the movement to include people like myself and to grow, it needs to be non-violent. If the Occupy Oakland GA can't endorse that sentiment then I'm begging the rest of the Occupy movement to pressure us into doing so.
Split the group. Bring it up in the next GA. Violence cannot be tolerated.
You can't just split it like that. The rhetoric is all about being "all inclusive." They have found a way to co-opt us. Let all other cities beware. Anarchists with an agenda are among us, they have leaders, and they are trying to undermine our cause. this is not a joke.
So businesses that closed to show support for Occupy Oakland were targeted for vandalism? And you don't find that a bit strange? Don't you know the police send cops or criminals dressed as "anarchists" to destroy property so they can blame it on protesters?
Some of those "anarchists" were physically restrained or deterred from smashing up more businesses, what more do you expect the protesters to do?
demonspsawn 79, of course some of them are cops sent in to instigate. We have already documented their infiltration. And they infiltrate in order to instigate. But again, that doesn't shock me. It shocks me that the GA in Oakland can't pass any kind of resolution, even condemning attacks against businesses that closed in support of our General Strike. It makes us all seem amateur. I hope that Occupy Wall Street will consider the benefits of sending material support to Oakland while the Oakland GA can't decide if this is a violent or non-violent movement. I am serious, there is a crisis here for those of us in the community who are trying to remain engaged.
1.restrain or deter all, not just some.
I just want to update our situation here... everything is in chaos and it is a very dangerous situation. I was downtown last night meeting with the subcommittee for liason to local business, and we were about 20 feet away from a fatal gun incident. The victim was a camper at Occupy Oakland. This was not political violence, and all of us in the Occupy movement know that it is not the result of Occupy: it is the result of decades and generations of neglect and abuse from institutionalized power, it is the result of misplaced egotism and masculinity, but it is not the result of Occupy. However, by failing to pass any kind of resolutions against violence, by failing to allow the police to perform routine walk-throughs as they do at every other Occupy camp, we have set ourselves up for criticism at the very least.
The camp that I saw tonight was sad but still had a tiny glimmer of the glorious. About 170 of us participated in a rainy GA. Sadly we rejected a proposal to stand in solidarity with groups who want corporations to have no control over the software used in our elections, and demanding a paper ballot. It seemed to me a proposal perfectly in line with the sentiments of Occupy Wall St. It was rejected, as far as I can tell, because enough people thought it was a tacit endorsement of electoral politics in general.
So people, don't be surprised that even the fairly radical progressives in Oakland are stopping supporting Occupy Oakland. There are too many utopians, too many people caught up in 19th Century models of political thought. The anarchists trashed our town and we couldn't even distance ourselves from it in any way. It alienates all our people here in Oakland, so the apathetic are allowed to remain apathetic just to feed the ego of would-be revolutionaries. It has to stop here and now, and I need your help.
In a working group draw up a standard of behavior that does not tolerate violence or vandalism. As well it should limit other things such as drums, smoking, drinking, getting high, etc. Reasonable stuff, don't get carried away. Share the list with those of similar mind and with outsiders like cops, residents and businesses. Let everyone know you will bring it up at GA and invite them all to come. Try to get 3 or 4 uniformed cops, if they're willing to come. At GA present it as a declaration and place it to a vote. You can easily get 95%. Especially if you juice the constituency. However, make sure everyone knows it will be brought up, so that the opposition shows up. It wouldn't be legit if they weren't there. If they try to block, tell them to walk. Film the thing in case they get violent. Even if they do not the film will go a long way in helping rehabilitate Occupy Oakland's image. You're hoping they'll get belligerent, but eventually walk.
Share the film with the cops so they can get familiar with the major actors in the violent contingency. If they later show up to disrupt a march, the cops who will know who they are and be looking for them. These guys are thugs. The cops are here to protect the citizens. The last time I checked Occupy Oakland are citizens.
Dude, uniformed cops are never allowed anywhere near Occupy Oakland. I think people around the country don't know how dangerous the situation is here. I'm afraid for my people here. There is going to be a raid in the next couple nights, and the controlling factgion are very determined to create a confrontation instead of doing a sit-down or something else that would create sympathy.
Well I feel that 99 percent of the that come out to the marches are for real and easily understand how to protest, why to not break stuff. And the first timers or the people that just never thought about it learn real quick with all those people around. The only people that would go and do this I think are the people that are being paid or some other reason but basically they have a job to do, and that is to ruin the protest. Cause it makes it look bad and makes us feel bad. Sure some people will jump in when all hell breaks loose but the people who start it are the people we gotta look out for. Its mostly manufactured I think. We gotta know that these people are trying to work against us and ARREST them.
I got a good idea: we could give zip ties for restraints to people, if they would agree to try and arrest provocateurs. These people that do provoke and vandalize could be put under citizen's arrest I'm sure.
They are not "first timers", I have marched for over a decade here in the SF area and this is a somewhat well organized group that is creating most of the situation. And if it was just the "people being paid", there wouldn't be loud voices preventing a consensus against vandalism and violence at the Occupy Oakland General Assembly. They are actually part of the movement here, not just outside agitators. And I am trying to warn you guys, and get your help. This is a truly serious problem. The whole world is watching indeed.
p.s. for example, you talk about handing out zip-ties to help us to arrest the provocatuers. Jesus H. Krist, you don't know what it's really like on the streets of Oakland. We can't even agree that those tactics are unacceptable. Much less can be address how to stop them from using violent tactics. We NEED help from the outside, pronto. Preferably a physical as well as digital pow-wow.
I think you might have read that wrong.. I was sayin that only a few are first timers, to the ideas of non-violence. But anyways I still believe they could be arrested, when possible. And that some of them are "paid" to start the riot. A la Black Bloc.
I think the idea I read about splitting the camps would be a good idea. It would really show people who's in their best interest, give them the chance to think about that.
there are split camps, but the other camps don't want to confront the radical extremism of the main camp, and I don't blame them. I'm trying to wake you guys up to the level of the danger, and it's not just a problem here but a lesson to learn from.
Hobo, print out this whole conversation if you need to stay anonymous. Run, don't walk, and drop a copy off at the mayor's office. Send a copy to your local papers. Send one to the police chief. Send copies to the radio stations. This might make enough pressure to make your GA do something.
As for help from NY or Adbusters in Canada, Leaderless movements aren't known for making any kind of far-reaching decisions or big steps, and NY to Oakland is more far-reaching than any. Protect your town, protect the people, protect Occupy.
No, I appreciate your sentiment but you don't understand either. The mayor has discredited herself with ineffective and contradictory actions. The movement was radicalized as a result and we can't get any traction. We don't even have a dialog between Occupy and the government. It's like Iran and the USA. We barely communicate through shadow connections. Pressure from those people in the community no longer helps. Very few here know about or care about adbusters or any other national organization. This is a bad situation for our activists who represent peace and are caught up in something they didn't create. Please help.
I posted about this early yesterday morning and only a couple of people responded. It is so bad from a image standpoint that I suggested Occupy Oakland be requested to change their name. People from the mayor's camp are coming down tomorrow to sit in on the GA but I doubt if that accomplishes anything given the hold they have over the assembly.
At this point you may have no choice but to divide the group or splinter off into a new element. Eventually they are going to get a lot of innocent people in trouble or hurt. If they start occupying foreclosures it's going to be a mess and they will lose their camp anyways. They've just about run out of the "liberal capital" they had from the sweep.
yeah, these are politically astute comments "Oneofmany", but what is happening right now in Occupy Oakland is not determined by what is politically astute. And nor, really, should it be. People here are somewhat more desperate and pissed off than they are in a lot of other places. And damn right, we should be. We are among the most screwed over of the 99%. But we're playing a part in the same old script. Seen this movie before.
As far as divide the Oakland camps, that has already been happening to some extent. I don't want to be too specific because some of that is still fluid, and the stuff that isn't too fluid is basically non-confrontational and those people don't want to be the focus of any dispute. They are marching on banks but they don't want the trouble constantly coming back to their home occupation.
Im glad you're coming out about it. We have a small town encampment and have worked very willingly with the town to remain within guidelines and stay --truly-- non-disruptive (peaceable.) We've been disheartened about Oakland's violence taking over, but believe that the MOST of you there are not violent and this is just the black bloc and other anarchists getting in and getting the most exposure.
Its bad for you..its bad for the police who have to deal with the whole mob (no matter most people are behaving) ..its bad for the town.
All I can say is your GA better find some way to get the black bloc out of your local movement because its going to hurt us all. NOT everyone has to be accepted in every movement, for it to be inclusive! Accepting a violent faction is not being inclusive, its being stupid! A consensus that is blocked trying to be against violence isn't a consensus, it is stupid! Here is where idealism of the perfect world hits the road, man!
Being OWS is a leaderless movement, I don't think there is going to be any resolution for non-violence from any OWS epicenter that Oakland can get behind. Heck, Oakland IS an epicenter!!
But what does it take to be a leader? You. That's all it takes. The one person. Anyone can lead. What can you do?
A lot, the tools are there. The system that protects you is there. Use it, like we have whenever anyone with violent leanings comes into our camp.
Seek out whatever leaders and organizers you have in your camp. Politic heavily for non-violence and pass your own resolution. Take note of troublemakers. Do whatever you can to distance the movement from them. Point the troublemakers out to police. Seriously, here is where you be a man or a mouse and save the movement. What they are doing is not right, and no one has to accept it. OWS camps can't continue to be so all inclusive, even of rapists and vandals, that we help hide them and HELP THEM be rapists and vandals. OWS camps that do that are not only enabling, but conspiring. If you say nothing, you are at fault too, and letting it happen. Here is where you...you...get to save Oakland OWS, and by doing that, save Occupy everywhere.
Thanks for your suggestions. I will take them into account. But I am not really ever trying to be a leader or anything like that. I have been out there from day one practicing civil disobedience against the agitators inside our own crowd, trying to shame them just like I'm trying to shame the cops. It's a bitter struggle with no voice of support from the outside camps, at least to this point. Definitely trust me, the mass majority of us in the Occupy Oakland movement are opposed to any violence or un-necessary destruction of private or public property. There is no structure to ensure that this type of violence or destruction does not take place. When we try to introduce a measure to condemn vandalism and violence, we are accused of being "divisive." That's the best thing we're accused of. We need help from outside at this point I think, and it's no disgrace to Oakland but it's a recognition of the fact that we are in the most distressed and oppressed situation of just about anyplace in America.
This needs to be solved.
Why not send a statement to the press, police, whoever on the website publicly denouncing these acts of violence and the black bloc group, and make it clear they are not a part of Occupy Oakland.
Would this be problematic even? I'm not sure, i am not in Oakland, so i am honestly asking, but anyways i sympathize with what you are saying, and it must be a frustrating situation. Maybe an official stance of non-violence should be taken by Occupy everywhere, or put to consensus vote, that way it would make it more of an official position and help establish some credibility with the public at large.
I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.
-edit- oh, i missed that last part about such a proposal being blocked. Huh, wow. Well, then a national Occupy consensus is my remaining idea. Is there any talk of splitting the two sides up into different groups? How would that work, if both allegedly exist under the Occupy banner?
Yes, I think that the 99% movement should take a stance against violence and against random vandalism, because here in Oakland we can't accomplish that. Maybe a national statement would put some real pressure on us. I know that there was a version of the San Francisco declaration or whatever it's called, that was going to be brought to our GA as a "solidarity vote", but the presenters removed all the language about peace and non-violence from the text because it would never pass. So, what good is fake solidarity?
Occupy Oakland is kind of in the grip of a group of 60-100 people who had a lot to do with starting it, and who are more interested in ideological purity than in building any real movement. The first time I showed up, I met this woman who is part of that group that told me to leave, that I didn't belong, because I said that I thought Capitalism is corrupt but not necessarily inherently evil. She told me that we couldn't pass any resolution against violence because it is too hard to define what violence is. To me, it's not that hard to define because if I was trying to hurt somebody then I wouldn't be peaceful any more, would I?
Combined with the cold weather and so forth, it's hard to keep anybody but this particular group of die-hards showing up. It sucks to be part of such a divided group. I've visited other camps, like I was out at Occupy UC Davis, and it recharged my batteries and my belief in the national movement. I think Occupy Oakland has a lot of lessons to teach the national movement but they will be hard lessons to learn, like this one. Adopt nonviolence now, and make it a movement across all Occupy camps.
Yes, agree with what you say here. It is interesting to watch the different elements, tendencies unique style of each city and how they approach Occupy in slightly different ways, yet still remain unified as a movement overall.
I believe you when you say Oakland may have some lessons to learn, and as far as i understand the history of police violence in that city may have something to do with some of the extra hostility and resentment, distrust, etc. And i agree that it really isn't so hard to define violence. That to me is sort of a cop out/justification excuse.
One thing that seems to be a challenge everywhere, is coming to terms with the entire spectrum of Occupy supporters, with the added pressure of infiltrators and provacatuers doing their best to distract and confuse people within and and outside the movement. It is a testament to the resilience of Occupy that they/you/we are able to remain steadfast in their purpose. I think that it is important for each person to be honest and accountable for the role that they play, and much of what other people may choose to do or believe or behave like to a certain extent is out of our hands, though i myself am definitely in favor of a push towards Occupy establishing itself officially as a peaceful, non-violent movement.
And despite what the press portrays, it seems to me that most i have heard from are in agreement more or less with these sentiments, though i respect that people may have a different opinion.
It may not be the easy way, but i still feel like Occupy despite some errors, setbacks etc. which is understandable because we are human and not perfect, nevertheless still stays true and is doing things the right way, or close to it, not that i claim to know what the 'right way' necessarily means or is. May it continue to grow and evolve in the best possible way in the pursuit of real justice and positive change at whatever levels or ways this may be needed.
Thanks for your words, definitely some good thought put into them and some inspiration received.
The reason I'm posting at Occupy Wall St. itself (and not the adbusters site either) is because I'm really hoping for the actual group that represents Occupy Wall St., the original group, to craft a non-violence proposal that can be adopted by other groups. I'm not asking for sole leadership on this; I think we need to set up our first fumbling attempt at a cross-movement consensus. I think this issue is that important, based on what I've seen in Oakland. We have been hijacked by these "black bloc" people; the peaceful people have stopped coming and our numbers are shrinking. We can build exciting actions once in a while, and Occupy Oakland is still thriving because it's such a dynamic scene.
But at some point, there has to be a break. You can't build a militant movement and a mass movement in the same place and the same time. You can't ask people to join up with something that is too open-ended to even condemn pre-emptive violence.
I don't believe that #OWS movement needs to adopt some Gandhi-like tactic of non-violence. If some cop beats my wife in the head, I don't know what the fuck I'm going to do, honestly, until I'm in that situation. It's not really reasonable to expect masses of people to be pacifist either. So that's a lesson I've learned from Occupy Oakland. "Peaceful" doesn't have to mean "Non-violent." I hope you sense what I mean. Any real consensus has to approach that understanding in order to include Occupy Oakland.
Sometimes these 'black bloc' people are actually cops, or hired by the cops to act as 'agent saboteurs'.
A few of these have been exposed in Quebec and Toronto, Ontario during the G20. It did seem awfully suspicious when some Police cars were abandoned in the middle of the street, set on fire, then allowed to burn, while the cops roped the area off and watched them burn.
I think one of the ways of telling if these people are cops or not, is to look at their shoes. Cops wear a certain kind of shoe which is not sold to civilians. Also, some of these guys have colour coded socks, such as one white sock, one red sock. This is so the Police know who NOT to shoot/ arrest.
Agent saboteurs are hired to pretend to be Occupiers, then wait for a crucial moment to try and fuck things up.
It's far beyond that. There's about 80 people who show up at any Occupy Oakland rally who implicitly support the black bloc. It's a tiny portion of the population, but enough to damage our GA process and basically set in motion an inter-Occupy war here. Every since then, I advise all Occupy groups -- including Occupy UC Davis where I visited last week -- to formally adopt non-violence proposals.
simply put, this is again the core issue that nobody has done their homework.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Non_Violence_Theory,_Practice,_Ethics,_and_Protest_Communication
what you have to do if you want meaningful change to happen on this is get the masses back to the wiki, because as long as idiots without a clue become rebels without a clue, they will in their angst and frustration do stupid and frankly evil things because they can't see a path to get their grievances addressed.
As soon as people understand HOW meaningful change can happen and get clued in to how that works, they can be a part of that process. Until we get to the work of a paradigm shift, nothing is going to play very well once there are crowds of 10 thousand people. This is a fundamental paradox. 10 thousand people trumps the cops, but it also then creates a situation of potential lawlessness.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Paradigm_Shifts;_How_they_Work,_What_makes_them_tick,_and_how_to_make_one_happen_now.
Every Occupy is by its nature an adventure in theater. Like it or not or care or not, an occupy is a stage. And EVERY action taken on that stage will be weighed by the public- whether thats fair or not is moot. The ONLY way to win that game is to consistently demonstrate and create an egalitarian micro nation which keeps its environment clean, treats others with dignity, calmness, and respect, and which clearly provides services to society at large which outweigh the other inconveniences the occupy creates.
There are thus three main fields of play;
The obvious one which most people imagine is the only one; The protesting in the streets, the Occupying, the getting the word out, and even in most senses the currernt internet activity.
The Psychologically least obvious field is the field of organization and logistics itself, in the sociological and psychological sense, such that each occupy creates a miniature society in demonstration of a BETTER social and cultural standard. This becomes less and less obvious the longer the crap sits around and fades out of mind of the occupiers; but operating as signs of entropy to those who look in.
The Third and in many senses most important and most meaningful arena is that of sciences and issues and problems and solutions, in which we form open source direct democracy driven think tanks and then actually work and then solve civilizations high order problems. Unless we do this, we are only complaining without putting forth a solid alternative, and we can only obtain the alternative which has been preset in the oligarchs [[PROBLEM>REACTION>SOLUTION]] con scam. In short, unless the Occupy movement wakes up to this level, the outcome of its activities will be to further entangle civil liberties, further entropize and polarize the electorate, and further complicate all of the social and civil problems we face, such that the Elites will then be able to run their agenda- with "Solutions" they cooked up long ago that involve keeping us all as cattle.
Excellent post, thanks.... I am taking all of that into account. I think in our general assemblies we are already doing some of that consensus driven problem solving, but we need to be more focused and we need to build more bridges between different GAs, passing maybe some of the same resolutions.
love your handle. I think its critical that we evolve into a central nexxus of organization such as the wiki. right now different occupies are each retreading and reworking all of the same stuff- each over and over again with little or no input from other occupies. We need to have global committee report backs and process and communication, a sort of social network of occupies.
Only a wiki can handle the organizational workload that implies.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Issues_%2B_Political_Platform_Items
I don't know, you could be right, but it seems to me that if people just consider some of the same resolutions, we could start to talk about consensus on a broader scale.
My understanding is that NYPD is sending homeless, desperate people down to those occupy sites in hopes of criminal behaviors taking place. If one PD is doing it it's not a stretch to think that is a tactic they all apply
We have had a lot of homeless people with mental problems showing up; I can't tell you whether some been sent here on purpose in some cases, but I can tell you that we have tried to feed all of them and tried to radicalize them and get them involved in a worldwide movement of people who are united against corporate corruption in government to create real democracies.
And it has been really inspiring; we didn't ask for the hardcore homeless of Oakland to join our movement, but many have brought their own voice and wisdom and perspective. They have taught us and and learned from us, danced with us and marched with us. Some of them we can't really help; their wounds are too deep for any immediate remedy. But some become part of us, and make us stronger.
They are us, they are the bottom of the 99%. We can't leave them behind.
I am glad that this movement is bringing such awareness to all
That's the understatement of the year! In my opinion, Oakland needs more help than the rest if these United States can possibly provide.
If you want to preserve Occupy Oakland you'll have to organize a group to handle the miscreants. Make it known that those actions are discouraged and will harm the movement. At the same time, try to work with the police. Let them know who the troublemakers are and, if possible, remove them from the ranks of the peaceful protesters. There really isn't a nice way to go about it but hopefully it will allow yourself and others to continue supporting a good cause.
You can't just remove a sentiment of anger against the ruling classes that is well deserved and well earned by the 1%. You can't swim against the tide. We need collective wisdom of all Occupies, the wisdom of our elders, and we need strength. Right now I am watching what is happening in NYC and I am amazed at the courage of our people on the ground. Keep up the struggle! We will resist their tyranny and fascism with you.
You can't remove the anger but you may have to remove the people. If they won't be dissuaded from violence and/or vandalism then you'll have to take action, as unfortunate as it may be. The alternative is a potential threat to Occupy Oakland, support for the movement, and possibly even the safety of fellow Occupiers. OWS is a movement rooted in peaceful protest.
If indeed Occupy Wall Street is a movement rooted in peace, then there should be a kind of consensus from the other movements urging us towards nonviolence. I realize this would play poorly in the media for a split-second cycle, but we really need some guidance. Either we are part of the larger movement or it is a different thing. I see a lot of militant postures at Occupy Oakland. It turns off and scares most people. It shouldn't be directed at Oakland, but maybe the whole movement should make its first statement a statement against violence. I know there's no easy mechanism for that, but a proposal that was adopted by dozens of Occupy GA's would carry that kind of weight. It would give us something to stand with, and to put before the Occupy Oakland GA as a statement of solidarity on peaceful tactics. Right now we are alone. WE NEED YOUR HELP! We are not weak, but even the strongest man needs guidance under this oppression. It must be framed as a statement of peace and not of radical non-violence. Self-defense is a human right, whether one chooses to exercise it or not. Pre-emptive violence is what we should be against.
The one thing it really comes down to needing more of is discussion. Talk to them. A lot, until you understand what they have to say. Work with then no against them.
I know something about their philosophy, and it is true that they are not all wrong. They have some good points.
Also, recognize that the main problem here is the control that the 1% have over the media and therefore the message the public hears. If they were honest instead of just flat out working against the movement as they so often do, then there would be no problem; the media would simply explain that these people have their own philosophy and just use the cover of the crowds at protests of all sorts to destroy property.
No more problem. Just explain to them why you think property destruction is so bad; that is is counterproductive to achieving the goals of the movement. If you as a group are patient and talk to them long enough and address all the points adequately and intelligently, either they can convince you that you are wrong and that it is helpful, or they don't care, they have their own agenda to push, in which case only then can you legitimately claim they are hijacking things.
I agree that they have some good points, and I'd even go so far as to say their tactics can be useful, when used right and at the right times...but they have no patience, they aren't able to wait for the time when the police have given enough abuse that such tactics are a reasonable response, and will get the sympathy of many if not the endorsement, no, those idiots have to start from the get go and give the police an excuse for their tactics, or to deface businesses that are local supporters, or are not fortune 500 corporations even if chain retailers, and so they do damage to sympathetic targets, NOT the kind of corporate symbol of the 1% that might send a message without losing credibility.
In doing so, they ruin work of the movement by turning off supporters and playing into the opposition spin machine.... if the OPD hadn't snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by injuring peaceful veterans both times the black block was acting up the most, they would have already completely discredited Occupy in the eyes of most, but there is only so much luck like that to go around. If they want revolution, let them wait their turn while the peaceful protests gain support. If they are right that vilolence is the only way, they will have their chance down the line, but they won't get a chance for any of the mayhem they want so much if they kill the movement before it even gets momentum. Before the peaceful marches began, there weren't enough of them to occupy a Burger King, so obviously they aren't capable of revolution on their own, they need the peaceniks to do their thing and be ignored or oppressed long enough first, before they will have a chance to legitimately even try for what they want, so the irony is, they kill the chances of both contingents with their stubbornness.
But again, realize that the real problem here is the media's bias. If they were not biased then people would understand the same way you understand, because they would know.
Secondly, never forget, anything that you can see might be detrimental to the movement, so can the 1%ers see. And they have the resources to implement false flag operations to make those things happen.
I'm not saying some of this stuff is not caused by dolts and the culture that that the media has promoted, but always remember: the enemy knows too.
Thanks; I want to say, we have basically been having that conversation for the last couple weeks. For example, on the night after we reclaimed the plaza in Oakland, I went down there with 2 big bags of apples and was handing them out, telling people I'd like to hear their thoughts about citizen activism and non-violence. A young anarchist woman started getting angry at me, saying that she was tired of hearing so much about non-violence. We had some testy moments, but it ended up turning into an hour-plus long dialog with about 15 to 20 different people taking part at various points and just as many watching. We didn't really get anywhere though, except the better understanding of each other. Which is something, I mean it is something beautiful. I've marched for years here in the SF bay area; I'm not a hardcore activist, but I like to get out there for a cause I believe in and add my number to the crowd. But I have been to enough marches against war to see these black bloc people before. And the Occupy camp has given me a unique chance to talk to them, or to people who sympathize with them, for the first time. Many people involved in Occupy Oakland had never seen them or encountered them before, but we'd all seen what they did to our downtown earlier this year in the Mehserle/Oscar Grant riots. They have been trashing downtown Oakland for years. It has nothing to do with Occupy for them. We could be protesting for the ASPCA or against plastic bags, and if we had enough people there to give them anonymity they would smash things. So no amount of dialog is going to turn them around really. We need the intervention of other Occupy movements to urge us to adopt non-violence. The whole movement needs to reject violent revolutionary tactics. If they represent 15 or 20% at least of Occupy Oakland, they must be among the other groups as well. They are not trying to save the Republic, they are trying to destroy it. Derrick Jensen spoke at Occupy Oakland today and he basically said it outright, as well as urging the police to turn their own guns on the 1% or turn their guns over to the mob.
It seems you have exhausted the possibilities of dialog no? You need to trap them somehow. You need to help the cops catch them. Zero Tolerance. Organize a march aimed at luring and capturing them. I would get organized with some other peaceful protesters, get some huge nets, and snare them at the next protest. Then wrap then up like Spiderman did, and deliver them straight to the cops, with a nice note. Make them out to look like clowns. Bullies fear nothing more than being ridiculed. It takes all their power away. This will redeem Oakland Occupy in the media. Film it, and deliver it across YouTube. Invite journalists for your coups. If they are a minority, you could easily snare them without causing too much violence. Big nets with plastic weights at the end. Practice throwing them first. Once you catch a few by surprise, the others will most likely run away when they realize they are outnumbered.
To Thrasmaque -- We do not really want to turn them over the cops, although some people have talked about citizens arrests on different occasions. I was personally called a "snitch" because I tried to point out somebody who was gathering rocks the size of baseballs to throw at the cops -- not because I pointed him out to the cops, but to the crowd. They wear masks because they don't want us to know who they are any more than the cops. Their tactics are the same as the cops. Some of them are cops. But your solution is to turn them over to the cops? That requires in and of itself a violent response.
It does not have to be violent.
Their weakness is their mask. Unmask them and they will fall. If they are cops and you unmask them, then everybody will know. If they are not, then cops will be able to figure out who they are tied with.
A well thrown net does not require any violence on your part. You thrown the net, then quickly restrain them with ropes. Cacth the ones that are isolated from their friends, like a lion attacks the weak animals in the herd.
Essentially, you have two choices
I see no other way.
The problem is that wearing a bandana or a mask is sometimes a defense against the tear gas that the cops are using against us. So you can't separate the "black bloc" from other folks. It's a nightmare. And they even have traction in the GA for their tactic of remaining anonymous. It is scary. Occupy Wall Street needs to do something about it ASAP.
And this is exactly the same mentality that has landed 25% of the world's prison population into American prisons.
"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene Debs
In that case. Operation shut down. If Occupy Oakland can't control the black bloc, nobody can.
We told our local mayor we would do that with our camp if the violent ones took over. we'd walk away and they could have them.
Then when the smoke has cleared, regroup your #occupyoaklandpeacefully group to another location.
well, read my below post, all Occupiers I know stand in solidarity with Oakland. And, read about the conditions these kids have grown up in, consider why they are so angry -- you might not be so quick to condemn them for their criminal element and may perhaps view them as victims, which is what they truly are.
I do view them has victims, and I believe the best cure is to unmask them. Sometimes you need to spank a puppy a little bit so he learns how to behave. Their weakness is their mask. Take it off. You are not social workers. You will not cure them with hugs, chocolates, and by letting them run all over you. Rules are important sometimes. That's probably why they are troubled. They never had parents who cared, they never had parents who gave them rules. They always did whatever they wanted and that means their parents were never there. Catch them, turn them to the authorities, and ask that they be helped with a professional social worker. Why not make a deal with the authorities before catching them? We unmask them, and you make sure they are helped.
Definitely agree with the unmasking part ... the KKK rode around inflicting terror, covered in bedsheets. Brave? I think not. Do agree that they need to become engaged through the work of some caring individual. Ideally, it would not have to be a social worker because that is further proof that our society is failing itself.
Just promise me you will at least sleep on it. OK?
These pics? Sleep on what? I do believe we have reached some sort of agreement. What can I say? This anarchist is hopeful that we may discover a day where the above posted nets, and our American prisons, are completely unnecessary.
The anarchist is hopeful that a day will come that no one cares that there is crime. The idealist hopes there will be a day where the above nets will not be needed because there will be no crime. The realist keeps a shotgun because he knows the anarchists will be committing crimes on the idealists.
True anarchists, at least in my view (anarchists run the gamut, I do realize this) do not require police or authoritarian supervision. Guess the difference among anarchists is a philosophical question. Personally, I believe that humans are capable of conducting themselves reasonably and without supervision when they have not been bordered, pitted against each other in someone else's game, deprived basic human dignity and so on. I don't steal. I don't harm others... it is not out of a fear of law that I choose to conduct myself as such -- it is out of a basic respect for others.
But you are not everyone, nor can you wave a magic wand and make everyone peace loving. They are all -capable- of conducting themselves reasonable..and yet..babies are murdered and raped, children molested, animals tortured, and every manner of horrible thing done by people who are capable of not doing it and who have had nothing done to them by 'the system'. One day, nichole, maybe, it will be the Christian Heaven on Earth and the lion will lay down with the lamb, but till then, we have humanity and all its terrible flaws to deal with.
I do wish that Christianity could transform itself into the positive faith it was meant to be -- you know, something Christ himself would endorse. With Christmas coming, the mass consumer spectacle that it encourages, I can't help but believe that Christians have been led astray. I don't blame the "system" for everything, in fact, I tend to favor the concept of individual determination (if we don't in fact determine our destinies, why not attempt to believe that we do?). It's a matter of personal accountability, I believe, and this is one of the cornerstones of conservatism that I most truly appreciate. The spaces between us seem to grow larger and larger ... I truly believe that most anyone, regardless of their political orientation, agrees that we must reverse this trend.
You can take away problems in society by creating a system in which everyone has their needs met. This will drop crime rates really low. But, you'll always have ailments of the heart, and the problem of death. Love/lust is a powerful poison that can make one do violent things, and the awareness of death can be enough to tear one's brains apart. I believe in your cause, but I do not believe it is possible to eradicate violence absolutely. This is utopian.
I do hear what you are saying here. It would be entirely authoritarian (not to mention, boring) to expect everyone to quell their passions so that we could maintain peace. I do not believe that all forms of violence are entirely negative, in fact, I believe healthy violence is necessary in relations ( a sort of safety valve).
Before I take my leave, grant me a moment to share with you a few more thoughts. I do not wish to press matters, but simply offer an idea that you can either discard or stash in your pocket for safe keeping.
An architect fails when he gets caught in details too early and looses hold of the bigger picture. While creating, he sways back and forth from the meta-structure, the meso-structure, and the micro-structure. It is a complex dance that must be kept energized at all times. So many fail when they want to write a book but worry about the placement of a suffix before having finished the outlines of the chapters. This is the saddest failure, the darkest failure, because there is no one to blame but one's self.
Occupy has a long history, but it is also at its beginnings. Anarchy is a concept as old as Ancient Greece, as is direct democracy. But the implementation of these systems in our current modern world is so new. Today could not be a more exciting day for Occupy, and that is why you must breathe and inhale each molecule one by one and direct them straight to your heart to taste the full energy of the day. Your are like Frodo with one step in his house, and one outside ready to walk forth on a very long journey. As much as the ultimate goal of a new society breathes wind in your sails, you must also enjoy the journey and take repose when repose is needed.
The problems you now face in Oakland are exaggerated because you have placed your focus on them, as you should. But remember that in the grand scheme of things, in the many years this journey will take, they will have been but a minor incident. The moment is crucial. You cannot stop the dance from the macro, meso, and micro elements of your construction. You must solve the Oakland problem, but you cannot let yourself get lost within it. If you succeed, you will exit with more power and energy than before and you will be stronger for your next affront.
Between now and the world you are creating, there is a long path with more obstacles than I would dare to face myself. But, you are an anarchist with a dream, therefore you have much more stamina and courage than I.
Is it important to realize that the elements of the journey will not necessarily resemble the final destination. There will be a transition between now and then. A strong hierarchy like the US capitalist system is not removed by a flick of the thumb. You will need to flatten it piece by piece, by piece by piece.
At the moment, you fear the use of power because it represents hierarchy. You do not wish to dominate the thugs which undermine your dream. However, you must remember that a dominated anarchist is no where closer to abandoning hierarchy than a dominating one. You are not necessarily abandoning your ideals by using a certain amount of force to extinguish the undesirable elements in Oakland. If the force you use is smaller in quantity than the force they use, in effect you have managed to flatten out the hierarchy that much more. Today they break windows and harm people, tomorrow you capture them in a non-viotent way with a net, and the day after they can start being rehabilitated. The more you overcome the elements in this way, not by refusing all forms of domination, but by always reducing the amount of domination, the more the system with become what you have always dreamed it to be, a perfectly flat anarchy.
Sometimes, a frog cannot jump from one lily pad to the next in one perfectly planned gracious leap. It must enter the water and swim in a world that is very different than the lily pad it is aiming to reach.
I wish you the very best of luck nichole. Occupy is a big dream, but it is certainly one worth dreaming, worth realizing, and, most of all, worth living.
Thank you, I'm going to share with others what you just shared with me.
Excellent remarks; the huge problem... the thing that's breaking my heart.... is that we can't stop them. Some of us tried to physically intervene, and I have tried to intervene when I saw a young man grabbing large stones to throw at the police. But the Oakland General Assembly can't even get enough consensus to condemn the black bloc. So how can you talk about tactics to defeat them, when the GA hasn't even stated that Occupy Oakland is a non-violent movement or that we are opposed to vandalism?
Alright then, suit yourself. However, I fear you won't even come close to your dream if you can't even take care of a couple of kids with stones. The net provides a non-violent method to take care of thugs, after which you can help rehabilitate them.
ok, how did you get photos in the post?? And I love this. Im becoming a big fan Thrasy.
I can just imagine that. Very funny.
It wouldn't be too hard, and I'm sure it would work. You just need to stick close to them and wait for them to start some violence. They won't expect it from other protesters. Hell, you could even wear similar clothes so as to blend in even closer.
What you have to do is SHOW THEIR FACES. Once you catch them, take photos and publish them all over the net. Bullies are always insecure, and they'll crumble inside when their parents and everyone else who knows them knows what they did. They hide like cowards. This is the only way. I'm totally serious. It can be done with good planning. Once you catch a few, the others won't show up anymore. If they do you double your efforts. You outnumber them, use that force. There's no shame in that. It's your responsibility to do it. They are attacking your Occupy, and every other Occupy in the nation.
Some of us have already tried to make them show their faces, but they regard that as an act of violence, and that's how they talk about it to the GA. Prior to any tactics being agreed upon to deal with police instigators and violent factions of anarchists, we have to first agree that such tactics are acceptable. The Oakland GA can't even seem to agree that we need tactics or that we need to resist at all; there is a lot of scary talk about "diversity of tactics."
These kids are mainly "anarchists" from Berkley, some from the city, a few even local. I use the anarchist in quotes because I am highly dubious they have read much anarchist theory (and are not representative of the many peaceful in the area). They have been around for awhile, and the show up at any protest in Oakland and the city, plus they starts as much shit at Critical Mass as the can, they're the bicyclists kicking the cars and shit. At the last Oscar Grant protest they were the ones to start shit, though I heard that they were confronted by enough locals, and when told to go away by people perfectly capable of kicking their ass, they decided violence was not so cool after all and went home.
They are the reason I do not attend protests in Oakland, and even though an Occupy camp is right around the corner, I'm putting my efforts online to the marketing wing, since until they are dealt with, they will ruin any local protests. I say if the GA isn't principled enough to deal with them, then someone needs to split off,or raise the issue with the New York GA, or the protesters need to take things into their own hands and when a few begin throwing rocks, everyone fall back and sit. If you can't educate through the GA, then bring fliers explaining the situation and what people should do,-- which when they start shit, everyone fall back and sit, make them stand alone. If they sit and all is peaceful, stand again until they start again, then all sit. It may take awhile they may try to tire you out, but you play the game long enough, you will show them they aren't going to hide behind the protesters to have their fun, either they stand in peace beside you, or they stand alone. Period. You guys find a way to take care of those fools, and I know you will get back every protester who has left and then twice as many who haven't yet attended because we knew those fools would come since they always do.
You're right, they're basically a specific gang that has a certain influence here, and people don't want to talk about it. They aren't in control of very much, especially when the so-called "street" elements come into play. I don't want to fight them, nobody fights them. They remind me of nazi stormtroopers. I just hope they aren't all over the place, I don't think so. But I urge all General Assemblies to adopt tenets of peaceful resistance in their very early stages to avoid the issues we've had. It actually creates a confusion between the violence that the State and the 1% is doing to us, and the violence that is just casual and distracting.
You need to throw them out of the GA. There is no reason you should have members within your ranks which hide their faces. By accepting them in the dark, you are taking a part of the responsibility.
They don't wear masks when they are in the GA. So I guess that means they have a lot of sypmathizers and their propaganda is effective enough that those of us who are pacifists need to start mobilizing in a VERY big way to prevent this mass co-opt. It may happen elsewhere, and I'm terrified that many innocent people are going to suffer in the coming days here in Oakland because of their misplaced anger at authority symbols instead of confronting authority in any inventive or effective 21st Century manner.
It's also a good way to get stabbed while you sleep several weeks from now...
Oakland has it's own set of rules.
Find out who they are and don't let them near the camp. All Occupy security should be focused on them. Zero tolerance. If that cannot be done because you fear being stabbed. I understand that. In that case, I would say shut down the tents and call it quits because Occupy Oakland will only hurt the movement as a whole. Better to regroup in another city, or keep your silence. However, if you can redeem yourselves, it would show everyone that Occupy is serious about peace and would give a major boost for the movement that seems to be suffering in the media.
Occupy needs a boost right now, and this is it.
They know who they are - some of the leaders have been involved in the organizing since day one. That is the problem; their core is very deep and works similar to any street gang using fear, intimidation and manipulation to control their surroundings.
You can't undo 40 years worth of learned "street smarts" in a makeshift campground while marching against the evils of corporate greed.
If there is no hope, and that might be the case since I know nothing of Oakland, then you have to shut the camps. Else, you hurt all of Occupy. If you do this, make a press conference and explain why you are shutting the camps. Explain that you are about peace and that it is impossible because of members you feel are not part of what you are. This is important, because if they continue to create problems, you have to be dissociated with them. There's no shame in closing the camp if it is for the good of the whole Occupy. Perhaps some campers can go to other camps, or create a new one in an adjacent city.
The obvious problem here is that if the black bloc see they are able to shut down an Occupy and they want to shut another one, they might move to another one. I don't know. Something to think about.
I agree with you Trasymaque, even though like I said I am from Oakland and I love Occupy Oakland. I want for there to be pressure from Occupy Wall Street and other groups around the country to urge the GA in Oakland to adopt a policy against vandalism and violence. We need to attempt to do that before we start talking about shutting down the Oakland camp. Trust me, it is a wonderful event in Oakland and it has a lot of potential to help the city, but it is being co-opted by violent factions that are exploiting the consensus process to prevent any voice for anything the rest of the 99% would support.
It is not a consensus if its exploited. As my mother used to say, if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you? See stevef's post about the working group, try it that way.
The problem is that the same mechanisms that make it hard for something horrible to be endorsed by the GA, make it hard for something to be condemned or prevented by the GA.
Pffttt, the Anarchists are mainly white kids from way nicer neighborhoods than around here, and would piss their pants to think of stabbing some one, since that requires enough courage to go toe to toe with the victims of their violence and these punks are more about throwing rocks and defacing unguarded property. No one is getting stabbed... they are shit talkers and bullies and so to go against them at the GA or at protests requires numbers or they will be able to shout it down or intimidate. But otherwise they are no danger, and cryptic remarks to the effect like this one only play into their hands and give those cowards more power than they really have, which is already more than they should have.
As to the "set of rules" that you think we have here aside from the issues at occupy, those rules aren't Oakland's either, just more shit imposed from the outside, and the same rules as any other high crime areas-- institutionalized poverty and the drug war. So yeah this means that there are parts of Oakland with unfortunately high crime rates, but that crime is mainly black on black crime over the same old shit.
Your statement is exactly the kind of bullshit that makes me hate the punk anarchists the most, white kids from suburbia giving the rest of Oakland a bad name, and harming the African American community the most, because those looking in from outside, especially those already predisposed to racial prejudice, typically assume any violence must be because of some "gangsta" shit, when that is not the case at all. The violent reputation in Oakland is already overblown, since criminals and gangstas represent like a few percent of the population, and vast parts of Oakland have no more crime than any other urban area. And it has nothing to do with any problems with the protest, since local thugs are not bothering to take time out of business to start shit at a protest.
Lucky for me I don't stay at the camp. Beware everybody: if you don't talk to people like me and find out what happened at Occupy Oakland, the disaster is going to take down the whole fucking movement. We need to learn from this or we will fail. It could be a failure for the whole human race people.
I like this. Everyone in OWS has a phone with camera. Expose them. It means going out of your way to be a hero, but you are fighting for your country.
I have stood up to them on several occasions and so have many of our fellow protestors. Take a look on youtube for footage of the people vandalizing a Whole Foods Market; when a woman who looks about in her 50s or so steps in between the vandals and the fence, another one comes up behind her and pushes her. That's what they are capable of; pushing around old ladies who are part of the movement. They have grabbed me, called me a snitch or a cop, said racist stuff to me, all because I tried to stop one of them from gathering rocks to throw at the police. Others have tried to document their crimes and their actions that are destructive to the movement and they call those people snitches and break their equipment and so forth. Again, all of this is not as surprising as is the Oakland GA's inability to condemn it.
Any way you could talk to the local military veterans protesters? I believe occupy marines has a number of locals involved. It would make sense for them to be among those leading the way to expose them, since it is their men suffering the consequences of the black bloc's actions, in the injuries suffered when the police retaliate. As I mentioned in this thread, they are cowards. They will push an old lady, but they won't go toe to toe with 10 old ladies or even 1 marine.
What do you think you COULD do? What would you like to do? What have you thought about doing? Brainstorm with us here.
It's not what we can do at this point. We need help from Occupy Wall Street if this truly is a movement and not just a bunch of separate things that have no connection to each other. We don't necessarily need a leader, but we need a broader consensus or the particular problems of Occupy Oakland will drag down the whole movement. If we could solve the problems of Oakland, it would be just as great a victory as solving the problems of Washington.
Guns that shoot nets. Fast. Bam!
Come on out here and do it and see how brave and macho you are. We are trying to use our peaceful tactics against violent people.
Why would you want to use peaceful tactics against violent people. If you are not brave enough to use simple nets, use nets laced with poison.
You are talking madness. Most of us who are determined enough to actually get up in their faces -- and I have done that, and been pushed around by them and called a snitch -- are pacifists and we do not believe in using any violence or even in using violent language. The few people who have used violence against the black bloc have been denounced to loud applause on the rotunda when we hold General Assemblies.
Oakland needs help kicking some ass on these useful idiots of the globalist Marxists. Let's not let it get to the point where we need the Guard and have widespread violence. If Leo Gerard can call for more militancy and violence is the result, I say well-meaning, right-thinking people can and should call for more militancy in swift, effective methods to snuff this "movement" out. This movement is absolute fraud and is rotten through the spirit of it. It is evil. It is NOT about what it says it is and I see rational, well-meaning people wanting to be fair and accepting. They are mistaken.
I'm a socialist, and from what I'm reading, I don't think these people are Marxists at all. And just as they're giving Occupy Oakland a bad name, they're obviously giving Marxists a bad name. Are any of them police infiltrators? And/or are they actually committed to making any positive changes? I've been citing a pamphlet by Lenin called Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder, which I actually haven't read all the way through. It's on the internet, and I'll try to do a better job of explaining Lenin's ideas about why these kinds of radicals (if they really are), even well-intentioned, hurt the movement.
There's a group in Oakland called Socialist Action, which supports OWSs. They're a movement based on Trotskyism, and understand extremely well how people like this black bloc will isolates the true OWS from the American people who need OWS. I believe they're participating in Occupy Oakland, and I'm sure they'd be willing to hold meetings to educate people about how dangerous and destructive those violent tactics are.
Something doesn't sound right about these guys in masks. It also sounds as if it would be dangerous to confront them, with nets or anything else. They sound pretty scary. I agree with other posters, I think people who want to save Occupy Oakland have to take a stand against and have a very well publicized break with anyone who advocates violence.
Maybe the new group has to use a different name, one that still identifies it as an Occupy movement, but which makes it impossible for this black bloc to destroy the momentum. Maybe a name like Occupy Oakland Against Violence--someone could come up with a better name. These guys have to be isolated, or they will isolate OWS.
The black bloc doesn't talk at all, they show up at mass protests and break stuff. They've been doing it for a long time, since the 1990s. It is a small radical group that believes in some kind of direct-action anarchy and has no respect for what anybody else believes. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sorry if this is really strong language, but they are fascists themselves. Nietzsche said that if you stare at the monster too long, the monster stares back at you.
I've talked to some people who are into Trotsky down at Occupy Oakland, but they are a very thin presence. You hear a lot of socialist talk down there, but not that many who are really deeply into it. It's almost like socialism by default, because nobody else has any language to even describe what the new order after the current model of global capitalism is going to look like. The one guy I talked to made a lot of sense, except when he talked about having solidarity with the government of China. See, these guys do kind of have an allegiance to 20th Century models of political thought.
The problem with a statement from the GA or anything like that now, is that even those raising the discussion are basically seen by some people as being divisive. But it is a subject that we may revisit soon. Our "diversity of tactics" stance was taken before the group had even set up any Occupation.
Thanks very much. I'm really grateful to have your assessment of the black bloc. I'm not sure if technically you'd call them fascists, if Trotsky was right that fascism is a movement by the capitalists to mobilize the "petty bourgeoisie"--people in business for themselves, professionals, meaning not the masses who have to go to work for someone else--to smash the working class. So I guess the black bloc doesn't have the power to start a fascist movement, but I'm not sure how you'd characterize their tactics. Why aren't they getting arrested? Do you think they're infiltrators? There was a lot of that in the sixties and seventies because there were a lot of progressive movements that were successfully mobilizing masses of people.
I'm really concerned that OWS in New York is managing to do a good job of isolating itself even without a black bloc. I was in a store on Canal Street in NYC around 5:30 this afternoon when an OWS march went by in the street. I ran down and joined, and was ecstatic to see who was in it--lots of students, and many older people. It was very well controlled and ebullient, but then about three blocks into Chinatown something happened. A young guy tried to get across the street through the crowd, and I asked him what was happening. He said he thought the police were starting to arrest people.
The crowd turned at the corner and started downtown. There were police trucks and you could tell there was something going on. Then the march had to turn again, into a narrower street. I just had to pull back, because I absolutely cannot afford to get arrested. None of the people in the march seemed at all crazy, it was such a fantastic, spirited demonstration.
Then I read an article on the internet when I got home, and some reporters said the crowds for Nov. 17 were smaller than anticipated.
It's obvious--the people we need to reach are not going to get arrested! When are these confrontations going to stop? Trying to shut down the Stock Exchange--and getting arrested. Every single one of OWS actions includes an action that guarantees the participants will get arrested.
Oh, and I completely agree, there's absolutely no solidarity with criminals--the viciously anti-Democratic Stalinist government in China. It couldn't have been someone from Socialist Action you were talking to. The Chinese government is even worse than the 1% here, if that's possible. Ugh. That's why it's constantly a fight for socialists to gain leadership of the radical movement (the word I remember in the SWP was "hegemony"); and take a clear stand distancing the mass movement from perpetrators of violence, like the black bloc. (They sound very scary.)
That's very interesting, your comment about the diversity of tactics having been decided before Occupy began. I pray that the OWS leadership get it. It's such a great cause, but, again, it proves what the Trotskyists have been saying for almost a century, the world faces a crisis of revolutionary leadership.
So sorry this is so long-winded, and thanks for your thoughts. I want to find somewhere to post this continuing plea for OWS to stop celebrating the arrests.
In solidarity.
Hmmm I'm not sure. First of all, thanks for the long response that was very thoughtful and inspiring and informative. I don't get that much real perspective about OWS itself, although I've been to a half dozen camps here on the west coast and southwest so I've seen how each group has its own dynamic and what-not.
Now the very same Trotsky-ite or whatever you call this group, this guy was frustrated with Occupy Oakland because it took us 2 weeks to organize a march. This was 3 days before we got raided the first time. He thought the GA process was shit because it took so long, he said we needed leaders because we lacked inspiration. I can respect those points, but I mentioned to him that without leaders there is nobody to co-opt and nobody to murder, to take that energy away from our movement or mis-direct it. And he respected those points. I've had so many beautiful encounters like that since this whole thing began.
OK so a few things to respond to in your post.... loved your description of the march in NYC. I understand the hesitance to get arrested, I'm pretty hesitant myself and I have not stood there and let them shoot tear gas at me either, but I walked with my wife in the lingering clouds afterwards, outraged that our peaceful protest was being attacked with basically a paramilitary force of 100s of police officers and wishing to express my right as an American to walk through my own town.
One issue we have had at Occupy Oakland, related to this, is the fear that anybody without papers can get deported if they are arrested, and we just managed to pass a resolution through our GA the very night before the arrest of our friend "Pancho" that guaranteed our collective support of anybody who might be arrested during our protest and face the fear of deportation through arrest. It's a controversial issue to take on, but we voted practically unanimously. You cannot turn your back on your brother. This is a local movement and a worldwide movement. We do not want the voices to be less diverse at Occupy Oakland because undocumented people are afraid to show up. And so that is one of our major concerns in the area of arrests.
Do we "celebrate" arrests? I mean, that is part of activist tradition. It's certainly part of the culture here. Many people have started talking about mass arrests, old-school like in the civil rights movement, where hundreds of people agree to be arrested and clog up the whole system that way. I mean many peaceful tactics are under discussion.
Arrests is something that has happened to a lot of us whether we want it or not. The second time they raided Occupy Oakland, they gave enough warning so that everybody who wanted to leave could pack off somewhere else, and most already had. Most of the people who were arrested were from the Inter-Faith tent; priests, rabbis, elders of the native tribes, ministers of protestant faiths, etc. I think that was about a dozen or so, and then there were some other brave people who felt they needed to be arrested to protest the destruction of our beautiful, if flawed, community. And Pancho, who was arrested while he was meditating in the place where we have our general assemblies at Oscar Grant/Frank Ogawa Plaza. So those people, I really do think should be celebrated. I have seen some really inspiring things, along with a lot of ugly things.
Hi, thank goodness you started this forum, I've been trying to find the reply you wrote me, immediately above, which I didn't have time to respond to and then it disappeared from my screen so I lost you. Thanks again so much for your very insightful information, and I wanted to comment that I'm pretty shocked about what you told me about somebody from Socialist Action--if they really were--being so dismissive of Occupy Oakland. That's nothing like what I would have expected or what I've read on the SA website.
I hope to have time to read the comments on your forum a little later, so I'll copy the link and try to get back when some rush deadlines are over. I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciated your long, thoughtful comments and that I couldn't thank you earlier for your recent one because I couldn't find it.
Thank you for a thoughtful post to mine, which was admittedly emotion-based and not reasonably expressed. And for ideas for further exploring those philosophies and ways of thinking. Although they're not something I see as an answer, the different styles of socialism/communism/marxism/leninism/trotskyism, etc are things I want to understand - as in understanding the enemy. The thing that bothers, no - repulses me, is the claim of being the 99%. And the sense of exclusivity their public face seems to convey. Wanting to see the movement far less narrow-minded seems to be met with a reaction of disdain. There is a strong sense that there has been a core ideological framework and specific language embedded in the minds of the "organizers", one which is rigidly clung to. Maybe in the same way as ,oh, a mid-western conservative "clings to his God and his guns". To the perceptive, it evades their best efforts at disguising it, that this is not simply an honest reaction to bad situations and conditions, but the taking advantage of those conditions in order to "progress" ideas and "mobilize" behaviors deeply indoctrinated and long on the planning board. To me that rings dishonest and hypocritical.
Hi, thanks for your comments and concern with what's happening to our society. Those various isms were different attempts to improve the world during the time of the revolutionaries who created them. Today we lack strong leadership that can solve the epidemic of poverty, foreclosures, economic insecurity, and assault on our standard of living by the 1%.
It's interesting and important that OWS has stirred many people to take action, which is exactly what our current, dominant political system heavily discourages. One of the most important aspects of fighting both for reforms and for revolution is organizing people to take action in their own interests.
The electoral system, on the other hand, is the complete opposite. People get to pull levers to vote for the same results, no matter which candidates they choose. The whole process is extremely passive. People give over our power to rich representatives of the 1% and let them run (or rather, ruin) the country for us. And as OWS has explained so brilliantly, those bought politicians need millions to run a campaign, effectively shutting the 99% out of politics, thereby keeping the majority of the American people passive and uninformed.
So these discussions on the OWS and other internet sites are part of an important revolution in itself, a world discussion among the 99%, What Is To Be Done (the title of another Lenin pamphlet).
If you want to know more about how revolutionary soclalists think, Socialist Action has an online newspaper, and their home page provides a lot of information in easy to understand (but not watered down) language. They, unlike most of the media, have energetically supported OWS from the beginning, and use their newspaper to get more people involved.
Hi BreadLandPeace -- I am an advocate of mixed capitalism and socialism, kind of like what we have now but with a lot more socialism, and with whatever laws are necessary to prevent the capitalists from creating situations like they did in Greece and Italy that force the government to privatize parks and services and so forth. I agree most of these people are not communist or socialist. They speak of an "anarchist community" and they have intellectual leaders, they have a whole command structure of their own outside the General Assemblies. Their alliance with groups sympathetic to the old black panthers movement is truly scary.
Hi, and thanks very much for the comments. I don't know if it's possible to have a combination of capitalism and socialism, or whether the capitalist drive for profits will destroy any meaningful programs for the people. The capitalist system hasn't tolerated even states that call themselves socialist, although I don't think socialism exists yet anywhere in the world.
I agree with you, I don't think anarchism, from the little I understand about it, is a strong enough political system to achieve sweeping changes. I do believe with the Trotskyists that without revolutionary, trained leadership, who have studied the lessons of the past and, especially, understand the economic system, it's possible to win what we want against a system that's armed and ruthless. Look what's happening already with OWS (although I don't agree with the violent tactics that get people arrested, I think the confrontations get in the way of the message). Only a relatively small number of people in, for God's sakes, tents, and the police are already shooting rubber bullets!
But that's why you need leadership, because unfortunately OWS is not organizing tens of thousands of people at this point, even though polls show there's significant support. I'm sure that's a result of both lack of discipline and lack of political understanding. I'm interested in your comment about a command structure outside the General Assemblies.
Thanks again.
What I mean by mixed capitalism and socialism, is systems that allow for the free market to replace the government provided services whenever they show themselves to be more efficient, but where the government provides for basic human needs like health, education, and where you can trust the police as much as you can the fire department. You have to understand, here in Oakland there is basically a war with the police and that's what makes the more extreme part of the anarchist group have such amplified voice. You can't deny that the 1% didn't call it upon themselves. But it makes it hard for us to have a constructive movement. There have been a ton of beautiful moments here. Oakland is an incredibly diverse community, a self-educated community and a politically conscious community. Believe me, we're not trying to fuck everything up.
As far as the Trotsky crowd, the few that I've met around Occupy Oakland are frustrated with the lack of efficiency in the Occupy movement and they are frustrated like you are by our lack of leaders. But there aren't any leaders in a direct democracy, and that's what OWS is at this point. That's our strength and our weakness. We have a lack of a larger inspiration, but we have a whole lot of individual and community inspiration. We can't be co-opted by leaders and they can't kill our leaders.
Hi, again, and thanks for your thoughtful and thought-provoking ideas. OWS has sent me to the books and internet in search of more information, and I especially want to avoid spouting dogma based solely on my activism in past movements.
One of the problems with certain groups, including the evolution of what was once a powerful socialist leadership core in the anti Vietnam war and women's fight to legalize abortion, is that they can fail to see a revolution when it's developing in right front of them--in fact, if they tripped over it, usually because it doesn't fit the classic model described by Marx and later socialists.
Nevertheless, I highly doubt that capitalism, which by default is owned by the 1% (because only they have the enormous wealth that constitutes capital) can tolerate the collective changes we seek (the best example today would be replacing the private, for-profit healthcare insurance), because they'd remove a huge source of profits.
I'm going against the catechism to say that these conflicting systems, capitalism and socialism, might be able to coexist. But the greatest betrayal of the 99% was Stalin's call for "Socialism in one country", in hopes that if the USSR didn't overthrow any more capitalist countries, these 1% wouldn't attack them.
Just one example of oft-cited revisions to the Marxist party line: the revolution was supposed take place first in the advanced countries, like Germay. But it didn't, it took place in the most backward country in Europe (and it wasn't socialism, it was Stalinism). And the Eastern countries like Hungary were taken over by Soviet invasions that quashed the the popular will.
Maybe the internet, the iPhone, and other ways of organizing the 99% will prove to have changed the balance of forces enough to allow for new forms of government, but we can't assume that.
Such heresy, that we don't need to overturn the dictatorship of the 1% (versus the dictatorship of the proletarian) could cause us to fatally underestimate our enemies. As so many have said, wisely, no group ever gives up power voluntarily. The lessons of past progressive movements prove that we can't work within the system (or, more to the point, the reforms we fight for, like preserving unions, social security, public education, etc.) by themselves will not achieve our full goals of economic and democratic equality.
In fact, recent revolutions, like in Egypt, which left the military intact, show how entrenched and ruthless the enemy is.
I'm sorry for a long-winded post, and my greatest gratitude to you and the other brave protesters in Oakland and across the country who, despite major ideological differences (some extremely destructive, like the men in black) have already done more to educate and inspire our 99% than we've seen in a very long time.
They're cutting their own throats. No help needed.
We are not trying to be tools of the Marxists, even though they erect huge banners in our city squares. I have gone down there and argued with people about the future of capitalism and democracy. And to me, the fact that this discussion is happening in public squares is a good thing in and of itself, here in Oakland as anywhere. You should get behind it to whatever extent you can and make it better instead of just condemning your fellow citizens trying to educate and inspire each other.
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Sounds like it's time to kick some filthy anarchist ass. Talking to those scum is useless.
Set a date for a protest. Nobody shows up but them. They can't hide behind you any more and they'll be exposed.
LOL, that's pretty hilarious, but they're too smart to fall for that. I heard they were going to have their own march actually, and I thought that would really be something to see. I showed up but apparently they didn't, because it rained. They are dedicated suburban punks. They are apparently going to try to seize a building tonight and create another war zone in downtown Oakland. I think their need to reclaim a building has more to do with their lack of stamina in the face of the cold weather than anything else.
Arm yourself and others, dude. Take it to the man hard!
I am basically a pacifist.... I might engage in self-protective violence, I'm not sure because I have rarely been called for that kind of thing as an adult. I believe in putting your own body between the perpetrator of violence and the object of his violence, to create images that shame those who abuse authority. I endorse the same tactics against the black bloc. I need allies here in Oakland, bodies and souls. If indeed we could defeat the black bloc in Oakland, it would inspire other movements in how to reject their rhetoric of destruction and their actions which disgrace Occupy and alienate the rest of the 99%.
PM me if you are truly getting together people to stand together against them, I will add what I can, and know a couple more who will join with me. I've been wanting to do something about them for awhile now :)
I think I would converse with you, privately or otherwise, but I want any kind of action against this element or any other ideology to be well considered in an open discourse like the GA before any action is taken, not just by a group of people. It seems to me that it shouldn't be so hard to do that, but it has been in Oakland. It's not a problem with people, it's a system that's created a lot of hatred and resentment, pretty much justified. But we have to rise to the moment.
I am truly just urging people to begin dialog along their own means in their own cities, before it becomes divisive decide it as early as possible.
Of course! The point is their insistence in give no quarter demands to maintain the purity of their political speech is being done in a way that does it at the cost of co-opting the political speech of unwilling peaceful protest participants, while also silencing the political speech of those who know the score and are forced to not participate in political actions in Oakland where they risk being forced to violate their own principles by knowingly taking part in something that will inevitably be used to shield the violence that they do not sanction. So the way to fight that must first lead by example and start with multiple attempts to negotiate and find a solution that allows everyone find satisfaction.
Even after that, aside from suggesting possible ways to call for pressure from others in occupy to influence the black block to come to the table instead of cutting everyone out of even having a say, I'm thinking my most radical idea for blocking their co-opting of peaceful actions is to find a way to educate and ask that all peaceful participants be willing to sit when agitators act up and so force them to sit peacefully with us to avoid exposing themselves. Then when all is calm, all stand, and the minute any start to agitate or act violently everybody plops back down again. And keep doing it till they know that if they want to play games we are prepared to pop up and down like fucking human wack-a-moles for as long as it takes to allow them to keep their cover if they choose, but to also show our determination to not be used as unwilling bit players in their political drama, a script in which we were not consulted before being expected to play the part they wish to assign us.
I think if we can manage it, it may actually be pretty fun, since these folks are anything if not stubborn, the process could take awhile, in fact it could turn into a pretty epic battle of wills :) which promises to be absurdly funny if it is effective and will probably make for some some great you tube footage as well.
And it involves no need to point anyone out or infringe on their person or body by unmasking or touching even a hair on their head. At most it might involve identifying them only to ourselves enough to assign one big guy per agitator to protect those around them so no more old ladies get knocked over. But as part of this action there is no need to do anything other than refuse to stand with violence, even if the violence is all we reject, and by rejecting it in a way that protects the individual by not even all looking at them throughout in a way that could tip off police, we ensure the person remains welcome.
cont below...
cont from above
This is essential because I do not think that in Oakland of all city anyone should be willingly handed over to the cops no matter how many rocks in their little pile. The cops have full body armor for one, and for two are the same thugs that just recently beat the shit out a peaceful soldier and let him roll around in agony for 18 hours before getting him to the hospital to fix the spleen they lacerated when arresting him.
Which is another point, if they (the agitators) can find a way to chill and watch and wait with just a little patience, I promise the OPD will start beating the crap out of peaceful protesters as simply the natural progression of their training as drug warriors sharply divided from the citizens they are supposed to protect by a law enforcement culture that fetishizes their entire worldview into a comic book style "us vs them" battle between good vs. evil. No one has to cuss or throw a damn thing, we just have to stand around long enough somewhere that gets in their way or sticks in their craw... just civil disobedience in refusing to leave somewhere that they don't want us to be. There is no way the OPD will not resort to their default mode of violence to reinforce their power, it will prove impossible for them to interact with the citizenry at length without falling into their default mode of treating all outsiders as criminals.
If they could just let that happen for us who would like for once to show it happening without some videos of them throwing rocks turning the OPD's unprovoked aggression against peaceful citizens into the same old spin about anything they do being simply a rational reaction to a trigger created by those notorious Oakland thugs.... I'm sick of that narrative, I hella love Oakland, and that stereotype does not do justice to the place and people I love and where I choose to live above the city or anywhere else in the nation. So I just want to ask if we can just once be able to show other sides of the story. Then if anyone wants to go back to throwing rocks, I won't condone it, but at least I'll have more respect for their being willing to show others respect and give us a chance to show our tactics can also produce big reactions :)
(so long as they don't fuck with local businesses that are not the right target, Oakland citizens hardly can afford to have our city torn apart, even if we can't stop it if agitators continue to choose more selectively targeted symbols to direct their anger at)
Agree with a lot of your comments. I don't have time to respond to all right now, but will return. I definitely have not turned anybody over to cops, but I have tried to point people out to the fellow protestors. And I was called a "snitch" for doing that, and roughed up a bit by his friends. I don't hate the OPD, just like I don't hate Obama, or Bush, you know? They are just part of the system. The shit-stem, Marley said. Throwing rocks at them is like throwing rocks at our soldiers. They are just people doing a job. We are supposed to be attacking the 1% through subversion. These people are doing the job of the 1% and that is why I am opposing them. Please help! Any way you can think of that is reasonable and non-violent. I think the whole Occupy movement needs to adopt a policy, not of non-violent tactics, but that all tactics should be agreed upon in advance. The point is unity of tactics, not diversity of tactics. If we are "diverse", sometimes that's just a euphemism for "divided."
....this particular group of cowards always shows up and smashes stuff and then runs away "?
That's who YOU are. They are your brothers. Now shut the fuck up and get out of the way, while they toss some bricks.
They are smashing up small businesses in our community -- even the businesses that closed in solidarity with us.
This is a real moment of truth for all of us -- are you a revolutionary, or a reformer? If you believe in the American Republic and if you believe it can be saved, then you should not march with revolutionaries or provide them cover for their activities. This is going to be a problem for all the Occupy movement -- we face it, and we face people like you stevo, right now or we fail.
Violence gets things done. Pronto.
What things does it get done? What has it got done so far except broken a few windows etc.?
Only if you actually have the strength to accomplish your goals. So, first of all, OWS doesn't have any specific goals. Secondly, if our goal was to weaken Wells Fargo or Citibank or Goldman Sachs, we probably aren't any closer by smashing a window at a bank (they have insurance, you know).
More importantly, throwing a rock or a molotov cocktail or whatever at the cops is not going to get anything done either. This is a 21st Century militarized police force that we are facing. Maybe you're somebody who has not seen that shit and stared it down face to face, but I'm here in Oakland marching with Occupy Oakland and I have seen that shit. There's a qualitative difference between what we're looking at now and what we were looking at in the late 1990s with Seattle or other actions at that time. They have really amped it up since 9-11. We can't match their tactics on an even field of battle. Pretending that we're defending the space or fighting them off is just a tragic joke, considering the innocent people caught up in it.